S06.E02: JSS

[Caelicola]

Well, now I feel guilty for being so hard on the Alexandrians last week, so thanks, show.

I loved it.

I love watching Carol be ruthless, I love watching her still be human at the same time, she's one of the best characters I've ever seen on anything ever, and I don't say that often about anything on this show.

I also really really liked all the scenes with Tara and the new not!surgeon, two people trying really hard to be brave and strong despite knowing they kinda aren't, and unfortunately failing at the end.

Ross Marquand looks really pretty all bloodied up, and I was actually very sorry for Aaron when he realized that his own backpack had led the wolves right to their doors. That's a tough break, knowing that your efforts to save people and strenghten your community have ended up killing most of it.

I appreciated the Enid flashback, because sometimes I need reminding that these teenagers are sullen and emo for very good reasons, and not just to buck authority, and when put in that perspective Coral being as functioning as he is is probably a testament to how much having his dad and his group still around him makes a difference.

Good job, Morgan, now there are -at least- five of them still alive, and they have -at least- a gun.

But Jessie! Jessie kicked ass, and she perfected the stab-her-with-your-scissors move of Bethianan origin, all while keeping her kids safe.

(Christian Serratos is one of the most beautiful women I've ever seen on television, and I'd love for Rosita to have something more to do, and a few more lines here and there, she could be an interesting character, if they just let her).

[peach]

That was explained in Morgan's earlier encounter with the Wolves at the end of last season. 

The Wolves believe the walkers are current-day incarnations of the wolves which used to be one of the apex predators in this part of the country. 

Those earlier wolves were hunted to the point of elimination/extinction by humans.

Today's Wolf cult appears to be focused on eliminating the primary existing threat to this "new breed of wolf" - which is normal humans.

 

I think this is akin to the quislings in the novel World War Z.  A small percentage of people's coping mechanism for an insurmountable enemy (psychologically) is to "become" them.

[SimoneS]

(Christian Serratos is one of the most beautiful women I've ever seen on television, and I'd love for Rosita to have something more to do, and a few more lines here and there, she could be an interesting character, if they just let her).

 

Last night I really noticed how gorgeous Christian is. She was beautiful and sexy as hell when Rosita was going after those bad guys. I wish that Gimple would give her and Maggie more to do. 

Edited October 19, 2015 by SimoneS

[ghoulina]

Okay, can we take a minute to get some of these ASZ characters straight?

 

In the early scene of Carol in the pantry, there are 3 other women. One is Olivia, the amory/pantry manager. Then there were two cooking women. One was the smoker, who Carol saw get killed out of her kitchen window. This woman was also hankering for a pasta maker. Is SHE the infamous "Mrs. Niedermeyer"? Because I had sort of always assumed that Mrs. N was an elderly lady, and then I figured that the entire town must just really be after some homemade pasta. 

 

And then, the woman that was still alive, but a goner, that Carol held and killed on the steps - that wasn't the smoker lady, was it? I thought that was the other lady from the pantry. Do we have names for any of these people. I know they're dead, but it might make it easier to discuss the episode....

[kikaha]

I don't buy Carl being dumb enough to nearly get suckered by that guy whining about the pain in his leg. I think he'd have just put one in his head.

 

I agree.  Especially since a) he knew this guy was massacring everyone in town, and b) he had just promised the young woman he would kill them all. 

[RococoChanel]

I FUCKING LOVE CAROL.

[kikaha]

It seems like the wolves have been making their way north so maybe just hadn't gotten to ASZ until now.

 

The photos were in a backpack that Aaron dropped when he and Daryl got trapped last season and were rescued by Morgan.

 

Rick sent Morgan back early in the last episode, after Rick took Carter out (the one who got bit by the tree walker) to tell the people in the town how it was going, what had happened.

 

I think your second two answers are spot on, thanks.  On the first one, though, it seems like we've seen roaming bands of marauders from just about the start of the ZA  No place has stayed safe for long.  So even if the Wolves just reached Alexandria, what about all the other gangs?  I never understood how the place remained an island of calm and peace, when chaos raged everywhere else, and when no one there had a clue about security. 

[nachomama]

Excellent episode. I do not want Dr. Denise to die. I do love Zoe from Nurse Jackie, but also don't hook up with Mullet dude.

 

Carol rocked, and I don't want Morgan to leave, yes his zen was annoying. But I sort of saw him and Carol taking a step towards each other, He absolutely, positively needs to kill them, there is no forgiveness in the ZA. And Carol doesn't "like" killing, her tears were here humanity still in there, she didn't want pasta maker lady to die, she didn't want to have to put the woman on the porch out of her misery, but as always, she does what must be done. Morgan thinks his mercy will bring these people back and it won't and I think he knows it now. 

 

Inititally I was convinced Enid was a wolf. I don't know now. 

[wmdekooning]

Carol needs a thug life tattoo on her chest ala Tupac.

Photoshop wizard, make it so.

The whole episode I was chanting "Carol! Carol! Carol!"

[kj4ever]

Okay, great episode. I love that the "B" team got something to do, I just wish we would have saw more of them than just fan pandering to Carol.  Don't get me wrong, I love the character of Carol and much of that is because of the most awesome Melissa, but they are bordering on making her a kind of psycho Mary Sue, and I HATE Mary Sue characers.  Even Michonne gets hurt once in awhile, but this is now twice that "bad ass" Carol has slayed a big group of people?  I mean I know the AARP set is jacked up happy to see a character of this age getting so much time, but please show do not ruin this character!

 

Deanna - "Oh umm I'll just sit in the truck until this is over"  No wonder she had/has two worthless sons.  To bad Pete couldn't have killed her and left us Reg.  I would say Spencer is good for nothing, but dayumn even as a coward I could think of a few ways he could be useful.

 

Enid, ugh I hope she's gone but considering she got a backstory I'm sure we will see more of this character.  I'm over it.

 

Loved Jessie stepping up, loved Carl stepping up, and I wish we would have seen more of Maggie and Rosita.  I'm sure they weren't just standing around waiting for Carol to save them.

 

New Doctor is annoying as hell.  For once I could almost side with Pete - I wouldn't want her whiney jumping butt around either.

[Caelicola]

Okay, can we take a minute to get some of these ASZ characters straight?

 

In the early scene of Carol in the pantry, there are 3 other women. One is Olivia, the amory/pantry manager. Then there were two cooking women. One was the smoker, who Carol saw get killed out of her kitchen window. This woman was also hankering for a pasta maker. Is SHE the infamous "Mrs. Niedermeyer"? Because I had sort of always assumed that Mrs. N was an elderly lady, and then I figured that the entire town must just really be after some homemade pasta. 

 

And then, the woman that was still alive, but a goner, that Carol held and killed on the steps - that wasn't the smoker lady, was it? I thought that was the other lady from the pantry. Do we have names for any of these people. I know they're dead, but it might make it easier to discuss the episode....

I also though Mrs. N would be older, but I think the pasta maker reference was to confirm that that was Mrs. Niedermeyer, because I don't think they named her this episode? The other lady that Carol put out of her misery was, I think, the one who was giving Carol her recipe for the "delicious"-sounding lima bean mash with cocoa powder last season, so all of her dialogue has been food related, if I remember it right, and I don't think she ever had a name, so it's gonna make it a bit confusing to talk about her.

But I think smokingkills!Lady was Mrs. Niedermeyer.

[peach]

 Even Michonne gets hurt once in awhile, but this is now twice that "bad ass" Carol has slayed a big group of people?  I mean I know the AARP set is jacked up happy to see a character of this age getting so much time, but please show do not ruin this character!

 

 

But in between her bad ass slayings, she got hit by a car and "kidnapped" by the hospital gang, and lay there helpless and left for dead.  Beth kept her alive, and then the whole group had to make a plan to rescue them.  She got out of there in a wheelchair.

[editorgrrl]

I'm confused about Enid just wandering off like she is capable of surviving alone. She was with her parents, they got killed, she wandered around killing only one incapacitated walker (that we saw), and then stumbled onto Alexandria while just about starving. Other than sneaking over a horribly guarded wall, have we really seen anything that shows she is capable of this?

On Talking Dead, the actress said Enid wandered for a minimum of two weeks. I don't think that came across at all.

She also said the director (David Lynch's daughter Jen, who directed 5:14, "Spend"—the one where Noah dies) told her to eat the tortoise the same way the walkers had eaten Enid's parents. That didn't work for me, either, but it doesn't really matter. The timeline, however, does. Sophia couldn't survive a few hours, but Enid was out there alone for weeks.

[kj4ever]

But in between her bad ass slayings, she got hit by a car and "kidnapped" by the hospital gang, and lay there helpless and left for dead.  Beth kept her alive, and then the whole group had to make a plan to rescue them.  She got out of there in a wheelchair.

Yeah but that wasn't done while one of her "bad ass" moments.  She just didn't look both ways before she crossed the street. lol

[nodorothyparker]

Okay, can we take a minute to get some of these ASZ characters straight?

 

In the early scene of Carol in the pantry, there are 3 other women. One is Olivia, the amory/pantry manager. Then there were two cooking women. One was the smoker, who Carol saw get killed out of her kitchen window. This woman was also hankering for a pasta maker. Is SHE the infamous "Mrs. Niedermeyer"? Because I had sort of always assumed that Mrs. N was an elderly lady, and then I figured that the entire town must just really be after some homemade pasta. 

 

And then, the woman that was still alive, but a goner, that Carol held and killed on the steps - that wasn't the smoker lady, was it? I thought that was the other lady from the pantry. Do we have names for any of these people. I know they're dead, but it might make it easier to discuss the episode....

 

According to TTD, she of the first machete attack seen smoking through the kitchen window was indeed Mrs. Niedermeyer.  She was still bitching about needing a pasta machine in the early pantry scene.  The woman Carol had to put down on the steps I believe was named Erin or something close to that.  She was also in the pantry scene, raving about Carol's recipes and agreeing with her that that are more than enough things to kill you now without smoking.

 

At first I thought this was sort of a throwaway scene, but on rewatch I liked what it represented.  For all that she started out playing them and telling herself that she was "telling them a story because children like stories," some part of her despite herself liked them and felt at home there.  Early season Carol and Lori would have felt at home there.  So seeing that part of who she had been butchered in front her, she's able to shut everything down and go into ruthlessly pragmatic everyone must die mode.

[SimoneS]

Okay, can we take a minute to get some of these ASZ characters straight?

 

In the early scene of Carol in the pantry, there are 3 other women. One is Olivia, the amory/pantry manager. Then there were two cooking women. One was the smoker, who Carol saw get killed out of her kitchen window. This woman was also hankering for a pasta maker. Is SHE the infamous "Mrs. Niedermeyer"? Because I had sort of always assumed that Mrs. N was an elderly lady, and then I figured that the entire town must just really be after some homemade pasta. 

 

And then, the woman that was still alive, but a goner, that Carol held and killed on the steps - that wasn't the smoker lady, was it? I thought that was the other lady from the pantry. Do we have names for any of these people. I know they're dead, but it might make it easier to discuss the episode....

 

Yes, the smoking woman hacked to death was Mrs. Niedermeyer. The woman who Carol killed on the steps was the other woman in the pantry. The only person left alive from that scene was the woman with the clip board who was hiding in the armory and to whom Carol gave the gun to protect it.

[Primetimer]

Never mind the herd, Alexandria's got its own horrific attack to deal with first.

Read the story

[Caelicola]

Okay, great episode. I love that the "B" team got something to do, I just wish we would have saw more of them than just fan pandering to Carol.  Don't get me wrong, I love the character of Carol and much of that is because of the most awesome Melissa, but they are bordering on making her a kind of psycho Mary Sue, and I HATE Mary Sue characers.  Even Michonne gets hurt once in awhile, but this is now twice that "bad ass" Carol has slayed a big group of people?  I mean I know the AARP set is jacked up happy to see a character of this age getting so much time, but please show do not ruin this character!

The thing is, though, that somehow I believe it. Every time she goes full out Rambo, she does so in a way that I believe a petite middle-aged woman could pull off. She goes in with subterfuge -she's been a master at that since season 3- and does what needs to be done quickly and efficiently, but not in a superhuman way. She's not physically imposing, and she doesn't rely on physical strength, she knows what her weapons are and how to use them. And I actually still see her as vulnerable and fallible, because the real Carol is the one who breaks down on the steps after the bloodshed is over, both the happy homemaker who bakes cookies and the ruthless badass who threatens children are masks she has carefully crafted for herself.

I also really dislike that a male character can be a super badass who's also vulnerable and great at many things and people looooove him (see Daryl Dixon), but when a female character is a super badass who's also vulnerable and great at many things a lot of people call her a Mary Sue, or unrealistic. (I'm not talking about you, it's more of a general statement that got tacked at the end of a post in which I quoted you).

Edited October 19, 2015 by Caelicola

[Tippi Blevins]

I don't buy Carl being dumb enough to nearly get suckered by that guy whining about the pain in his leg. I think he'd have just put one in his head.

 

 

I thought it was an interesting contrast to when he shot that kid outside the prison when the Governor attacked them. Then he didn't hesitate and even though he defended the action as necessary, maybe it stuck with him.

 

He's sort of the middle ground between Carol and Morgan. He's willing to think about giving someone a chance, but he's also willing to blow their head off.

[Lorimac]

Saw a shirt at ComicCon that said "Kill Daryl and we riot" but f--k, Carol is my spirit animal.

[kj4ever]

The thing is, though, that somehow I believe it. Every time she goes full out Rambo, she does so in a way that I believe a petite middle-aged woman could pull off. She goes in with subterfuge -she's been a master at that since season 3- and does what needs to be done quickly and efficiently, but not in a superhuman way. She's not physically imposing, and she doesn't rely on physical strength, she knows what her weapons are and how to use them. And I actually still see her as vulnerable and fallible, because the real Carol is the one who breaks down on the steps after the bloodshed is over, both the happy homemaker who bakes cookies and the ruthless badass who threatens children are masks she has carefully crafted for herself.

I also really dislike that a male character can be a super badass who's also vulnerable and great at many things and people looooove him (see Daryl Dixon), but when a female character is a super badass who's also vulnerable and great at many things a lot of people call her a Mary Sue, or unrealistic. (I'm not talking about you, it's more of a general statement that got tacked at the end of a post in which I quoted you).

Oh I agree with you on that big time.  In my mind Daryl dangerously walks that line right along with Carol.  I love both characters but could see it sliding into that territory very easily.

[AndySmith]

If you are a turtle, just minding your own business, living out your 80-or-so years in relative peace, you should know that the apocalypse will eventually catch up to you as well.

 

As always, this show is as subtle as a shovel to the face.

 

Ninja-Morgan still does nothing for me. Also, shut up, Morgan.

 

Just as they're starting to understand the motivation of the Wolves, Carol shoots the guy

 

I'm having bad Lost flashbacks...

 

I'd like to say I'll miss Enid, but why lie?

 

I also really dislike that a male character can be a super badass who's also vulnerable and great at many things and people looooove him

 

Meet Mary Sue's brother, Gary Sue.

 

Good episode overall.

Edited October 19, 2015 by AndySmith

[Ohwell]

I don't know how Carol is portrayed in the comics because I've never read them.  What I do know, however, is that I am sick of her being portrayed as smarter, more courageous than the Black men on this show.  First, Tyreese was the scaredy-cat compared with her badassery, and now we have Morgan being stupid compared to her smarts.  This is the same Morgan who has survived on his own for God knows how long in the ZA, apparently without a gun and just that pole, who all of sudden has to learn to be a badass killer from the likes of Queen Carol (tm Mighty Sparrow).   

 

As I've said before:  Fuck her.

 

Not to mention, Father Pee Pants' name says it all and Bob was an alcoholic whose most famous contribution was "tainted meat!"  I know it's on the writers and not the characters but I'm just sick of it.

[mandolin]

This actor playing Ron is so painful to watch. That scene with his mom in the kitchen at the start was sooo bad.

Yes, that was painful.

 

I really enjoyed this episode. My heart was pounding. I do have to say I am not totally on board when they do a storyline and take 2 weeks to show how they aligned. That means we've spent 2 hours watching the same 45 minute time frame and not much has advanced. I enjoy flashbacks and the like; I just don't want to spend weeks where there are days. Carl will be elderly by the end of season 7 at the rate he's growing. I don't hate it; but surely this could've all been one episode, especially last week was 1.5 hours.

 

I almost didn't mind Rick not being in this episode, but I did. He's the show's anchor (for me, YMMV), and I enjoy a quick check-in at least. Another problem with storylines running concurrently. That type of storytelling is what gave us the Grady arc, and that was pure crap. So, while I did enjoy this ep, I hope this isn't how the whole season is laid out.

[AndySmith]

I feel the same way about Carol being superior to Arab-Americans on this show, and I am sick of it too. Oh wait, there are no Arab-Americans on this show. Guess I'll go watch Homeland instead...or maybe not.

[SpaghettiTuesdays]

I worked a 16 hour shift on 3 hours sleep and this episode kept me wide awake, which I think is quite telling. I really enjoyed it and I think they're 2/2 this season. I really like when Jen directs episodes as well.

 

Seeing Enid's story gave a lot of insight to who she is. I figured about as much happened to her, but it's still nice to see her background story. I get a Shane-Lori-Rick feeling about the Ron-Enid-Carl story, though.

 

I was convinced that, when Carl pulled the casserole out of the oven, he was going to mirror what Carol did when she looked at the baby monitor and saw Judith sleeping. I thought one of the Wolves was going to be in there with her or something. I was very scared for Judith! I'm glad that she was (probably) still sleeping peacefully.

 

The Wolves were done fantastically! I am not a comic book reader, but I had thought there was only 2 of them. It was cool to see the big group. When Mrs W was killed, I actually jumped. What a way to introduce t he killing spree!! I think it was so cool how they did the invasion in real-life time. It did make it quite realistic, as did the fact that each of the Wolves had their own distinct look and weapon. It was really thrilling. (Don't know what that says about me...) I was worried that this episode would be more boring than  the first, but I was wrong. 

 

I'm kind of mad at Morgan for not killing all the Wolves. But if they're all brainwashed or something, maybe he convinced a few to take a look at what they're doing. 

 

Jessie going all mama-bear was fantastic as well, though I'm sure she's scarred Ron for life. I also thought Sam was going to follow his mother out of the closet and cause some issues, but I'm glad he stayed where he belonged. 

 

I felt so, so bad for Aaron. I can only imagine what he feels. I hope he uses it to up his bravado and doesn't die stupidly. 

 

I kept thinking that Morgan was going to get shot by Olivia in the armory. I thought that was the building where he went into, but instead there was one of the Wolves hiding behind the corner. I kept screaming "HE CAN'T DIE YET, HE JUST MADE IT INTO THE OPENING CREDITS!" and my mom kept telling me to shut up. :)

 

Did any of the Alexandrian kids die? 

Edited October 19, 2015 by SpaghettiTuesdays

[islandgal140]

Morgan, I liked you better when you were crazy and yelling "Clear."  I don't see how anyone can think that you can walk up to a person hacking a human being to pieces at their leisure in the middle of the street with an axe, turns to you and asks do you want it quick or slow and think you can reason with them. What part of any of that strikes you as someone in touch with their rational mind?  I just had too much anticipation and thirst for Morgan and what I thought would now be his special no holds barred unstoppable brand of fuckingshitup to be saddled with Tyrese Part II: Electric Bugaloo. No ma'am. I get it. The show needs someone to temper and challenge Rick's current world view. I just don't see why it had to be Morgan.  Plus, I don't even think you need someone with a 'no kill policy'  to serve as a contrast to Rick and the rest. Rick is on the cusp of killing for convenience and even he acknowledges that.  So I am meant to believe that Morgan was the grasshopper to some Shaolin Monk type and underwent some David Carradine condensed Kung Fu like transformation? 

 

MVP of the episode goes once again to Carol. Her badassery has no bounds. At this point she might as well be inducted into the hall of fame. Yes, she may be brutal and she doesn't suffer fools but seriously, at this point in the game I would rather go with overzealous rather than under.  I got my biggest laugh of the episode when Carol walked up and shot the man Father Pee Pants and Morgan were tying up and attempting to take prisoner.  At one point in the episode I might've thought that was a great idea but frankly, that fool was uttering jibberish. There ain't no light that can be shed, no rationale found in a bunch of dirty ass feral mofos that broke in and just started hacking people to bits. "Freeing" people. Really? Hate to use the overused Batman quote but some men just want to see the world burn. They will be back and thanks to Morgan letting that dirty half dozen go with a gun no less, they now know to be better armed and/or better have a better strategy.

 

I don't see how Deanna sitting in a truck made her any less in need of saving given that her son was standing beside the truck with a high power rifle. If anything she was more safe than the people within the walls.

 

It was so unexpected and absurd at that moment, I thought Carol was hallucinating danger in the too-quit Alexandria.

 

 

I seriously thought Carol was hallucinating or having a psychotic break or something because I thought that big dude was Ed at first. He just didn't seem real to me. I had to rewind because I thought there were times that I could see through him like some type of apparition.

[ghoulina]

But in between her bad ass slayings, she got hit by a car and "kidnapped" by the hospital gang, and lay there helpless and left for dead.  Beth kept her alive, and then the whole group had to make a plan to rescue them.  She got out of there in a wheelchair.

 

Right. And there was the time she got her knife stuck in the walker's head, when going out to fix the water hose, and Rick had to come save her. Carol definitely isn't untouchable. But I do think she's very clever and has realized she needs to be more stealth and think things through, because strength is not her strong suit. She has a great learning curve. She realized "camo", of various sorts, works well and so she uses it again. 

 

 

Thanks for everyone who confirmed the smoking lady IS Mrs. Niedermeyer. Or was. Can we please get an actual cute, old lady in this community then??? 

[Portia]

Ricotta be turning up any minute now. 

 

I'll show myself out.

[NorthstarATL]

I don't know how Carol is portrayed in the comics because I've never read them.  What I do know, however, is that I am sick of her being portrayed as smarter, more courageous than the Black men on this show.  First, Tyreese was the scaredy-cat compared with her badassery, and now we have Morgan being stupid compared to her smarts.  This is the same Morgan who has survived on his own for God knows how long in the ZA, apparently without a gun and just that pole, who all of sudden has to learn to be a badass killer from the likes of Queen Carol (tm Mighty Sparrow).   

 

As I've said before:  Fuck her.

 

Not to mention, Father Pee Pants' name says it all and Bob was an alcoholic whose most famous contribution was "tainted meat!"  I know it's on the writers and not the characters but I'm just sick of it.

Not sure why the comparison is in any way apt. Nor why lumping all characters of the same gender or color together, rather than seeing them as individuals, does any service to the characters themselves. If Rick does something amazing, it is not as if that besmirches the way all the Asian males on the show are portrayed. Not liking Carol is fine, but not liking the character because of some sort of "rivalry" with other character groups makes very little sense. IMO.

[CletusMusashi]

You know, Enid has spectacular penmanship. 

[editorgrrl]

Okay, can we take a minute to get some of these ASZ characters straight?

Olivia (who used to work in a coffee shop) is in charge of the armory. She once asked Sasha to get her a boar's leg.

Shelly Neudermeyer really wanted a pasta machine, and she smoked menthol cigarettes. (I don't recall Carol lecturing Daryl or Dale about their Morleys.)

Carol killed Erin (from the book club) for the same reasons Rick killed Carter. They were making noise and they were mortally wounded.

The doctor is Denise Cloyd. Her patient was Holly.

When Deanna first heard the screams, she yelled, "Richards, what's going on in there?" So I thought he or she was the flaming body that fell over the wall.

Speaking of which, Deanna & Maggie were outside the wall discussing planting a garden in an area that was due for expansion. Shouldn't the first priority be fixing all those blind spots that even Enid spotted? And if Rick put the kibosh on recruiting, why did they need to expand? (Just so Eugene could say, "It hams my biscuits is all"?)

[Boofish]

Morgan and Carol's internal dialogue at the end (interchangeable)

 

"Bitch"

"Yo' momma"

 

The Wolves will have to change their names to The Prairie Dogs when Rick gets home and find out what they did

 

Poor Aaron - this was not your fault.

 

I don't think Morgan is a coward in any sense of the word. He went running to danger not away (hot ZA model Spencer). But his compassion and zen are misplaced. There is no room for kindness when people walk up to Mrs. Nedemeyer and just start beating her because they can.  A lot of us wanted to but that does not make it right

[morgankobi]

I don't get how Carol is lessening the characters of the black men on this show. Morgan went up against 5/6 wolves with just a stick. I do not see how Carol is being portrayed as more courageous than that, especially at the detriment of anyone else. She was shown to be much more courageous than Spencer and Deanna. Is it only because they weren't in the same scene that she isn't seen as showing-up all other women, or white men? They were all in the same situation. She has been shown to be more resolute in doing what needs to be done than Rick, too. I don't see race as a factor here.

 

Essentially four people saved ASZ: Carol, Morgan, Rosita and Aaron. Two women, two people of (different) color, and only one white male. In a town/group that is predominately white, that's pretty good. ETA: Sorry, meant two people of color, and two different colors at that :)

Edited October 19, 2015 by morgankobi

[JackONeill]

Essentially four people saved ASZ: Carol, Morgan, Rosita and Aaron. Two women, two people of (different) colors, and only one white male. In a town/group that is predominately white, that's pretty good.

 

Plus, Rosita is Latino. So, it was really spread around. (and Aaron is gay)

[clack]

Morgan's philosophy needs a tweak, but Rick's and Carol's need a complete re-think. Carol is what -- in her fifties? How much longer does her "badassery" window extend to before age, illness, and injury take a toll? 10 years, tops? What then? How long does Rick have?

 

Rick's little tribe of 12 or so has no long-term prospects. Judith will never reach adolescence. Daryl is right, any person not a homicidal maniac (which leaves the Wolves out, granted) needs to come together with others to form a community if humanity will have a chance, however slim, of surviving onto the next generation.

It's Morgan (and Daryl) who are the true survivalists.

[nodorothyparker]

The thing is, though, that somehow I believe it. Every time she goes full out Rambo, she does so in a way that I believe a petite middle-aged woman could pull off. She goes in with subterfuge -she's been a master at that since season 3- and does what needs to be done quickly and efficiently, but not in a superhuman way. She's not physically imposing, and she doesn't rely on physical strength, she knows what her weapons are and how to use them. And I actually still see her as vulnerable and fallible, because the real Carol is the one who breaks down on the steps after the bloodshed is over, both the happy homemaker who bakes cookies and the ruthless badass who threatens children are masks she has carefully crafted for herself.

 

This is why I find her as plausible as I find anything else in this universe.  If she was routinely winning fistfights or physically overpowering people, then yeah, she would have crossed that line for me.  But that's not what they've done with her.  She's good at stealth and getting the drop on people.  She's ruthlessly pragmatic.  She's quicker and less hesitant to pull the trigger than many may be because let's face it, the few fights we've seen her in haven't been terribly impressive.  She's scuffled with Mary from Terminus and the Wolf in the armory and mostly lucked out.  She's ended up on the ground before trying to take down walkers.  So she has to play to her strengths, which aren't physical.  

 

Morgan was frustrating, but I don't see him as a coward any more than I saw Tyreese or anyone save FPP truly a coward.    They're coming at this from different angles.  They're all at different places in trying to hang onto to their sanity and humanity and what they can live with.  Before them, we had Dale and Herschel doing the same thing with equally mixed results.  It's tough being the resident voice of the softer instincts in Rick's group.

[blackwing]

Is it wrong that I couldn't care less about Enid?  I am a bit dense because I didn't realise that was a flashback and that it was showing how her parents died.  I guess I cared so little about her in previous episodes that I had forgotten whether she still had parents.  Regardless, notwithstanding the fact that she is a broody surly teen, she is a brood surly teen who is tainted by association with Carl.  I hope she is gone, but I'm sure she's not.  And I can't be the only one who wished that Wolf had popped both Carl and Ron. 

 

Carol is awesome.  Wish we had seen more of Maggie this episode.  Maggie has developed into a great fighter and shot.  How come we didn't see more of Aaron?  The only time I noticed him was at the end when he was cleaning up the dead with knives to the brain and looking at his own photos.

 

What's wrong with Cream of Celery soup?  I hate mushrooms, so I've used Cream of Celery or Cream of Asparagus as the substitute for Mushroom in a green bean casserole.  Both are delicious.

 

Never mind the herd, Alexandria's got its own horrific attack to deal with first.

http://previously.tv/the-walking-dead/wolves-on-walled-streets/"> Read the story

Great recap!  Just a nitpick.  Denise is not a Doctor of Psychology... that's a Psy.D., somebody who is a therapist.  Denise went to medical school and is a Psychiatrist.  A psychiatrist is a medical doctor with a medical license.  They go through four years of medical school and a four year residency.  Like Psy.Ds, many psychiatrists also do therapy, but psychiatrists can also prescribe drugs, which is something that Psy.Ds cannot.

[JackONeill]

Morgan's philosophy needs a tweak, but Rick's and Carol's need a complete re-think. Carol is what -- in her fifties? How much longer does her "badassery" window extend to before age, illness, and injury take a toll? 10 years, tops? What then? How long does Rick have?

 

Rick's little tribe of 12 or so has no long-term prospects. Judith will never reach adolescence. Daryl is right, any person not a homicidal maniac (which leaves the Wolves out, granted) needs to come together with others to form a community if humanity will have a chance, however slim, of surviving onto the next generation.

It's Morgan (and Daryl) who are the true survivalists.

I think Rick's group is giving Alexandria a chance, but Rick knows (as do we) that the people there need, at least, to know how to shoot a gun.

 

Also, am I the only who kept hearing Walkers last night, towards the end of the episode? I could have sworn I heard them make their typical Walker noise ("I'm-Hungry," but without words). I thought the camera would pull back and we'd see a few hundred outside the walls.

[RustbeltWriter]

At the end, Carol saw an 'A' in a circle on the porch railing of a house. I wonder if that was some sort of marker for the Wolves.

 

This was a very good episode because in addition to tying into last week's premiere and surprising us all, it set up some questions that the show can take some time to explore.

 

• I don't think Enid is a Wolf. There was nothing in her backstory to indicate she knew them. I think she is just a survivor and that's why she's bonded with Carl. They've both seen life outside those walls.
• Morgan's refusal to kill should not be seen as a weakness. He will clearly defend himself and his home. For all we know he ended up killing that Wolf at the end. I think he has adopted a philosophy for himself that gives him peace and purpose. That shouldn't be mistaken for him being less than masculine. I find his story fascinating and look forward to seeing more.
• Father Gabriel is trying to make amends and I think we'll see some growth from him. He didn't hide during the attack and he has stated that he was wrong in his views with Rick's group and that he now wants to help. I sincerely hope we see some growth from him.
• Deanna and the folks in Alexandria have now had their eyes opened to how vulnerable they are in this new world. It will be very interesting to see how they react. No matter what each individual's role in the settlement is, they need to be able to fight.

 

I think the showrunners have done an admirable job of hitting the ground running and setting up this season.

Edited October 19, 2015 by RustbeltWriter

[Ohwell]

Not sure why the comparison is in any way apt. Nor why lumping all characters of the same gender or color together, rather than seeing them as individuals, does any service to the characters themselves. If Rick does something amazing, it is not as if that besmirches the way all the Asian males on the show are portrayed. Not liking Carol is fine, but not liking the character because of some sort of "rivalry" with other character groups makes very little sense. IMO.

As I said before, I'm putting this on the writers, not the characters themselves.  And in this episode, I think the writers focused specifically on Carol vs. Morgan to show just how much more of a badass she is over him.  Obviously, opinions vary on this, but that's my take on it.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Ohwell

[Johnny Dollar]

Maybe it's just me, but really don't notice the races of the characters on this show. To me, they're either good guys or bad guys, brave or cowardly.

[morgankobi]

Also, am I the only who kept hearing Walkers last night, towards the end of the episode? I could have sworn I heard them make their typical Walker noise ("I'm-Hungry," but without words). I thought the camera would pull back and we'd see a few hundred outside the walls.

I heard that, too. It may have been flambé walker, who they killed at the very end. Although, it sounded like more than one to me.

At the end, Carol saw an 'A' in a circle on the porch railing of a house. I wonder if that was some sort of marker for the Wolves.

It's from the stamp Sam uses. He was holding it while sulking on Carol's porch at the start of the episode. Seeing it reminds her of him, and likely how hard she was on him before the Unfair Wolves arrived.

Edited October 19, 2015 by morgankobi

[kj4ever]

Oh and however hot Rick was for Jessie before....Triple that once he finds out she killed someone!

 

Not sure about my feelings for Morgan yet.  I don't think he's a coward at all.  Stupid, maybe.  Naive? Definitely.

[ghoulina]

Also, am I the only who kept hearing Walkers last night, towards the end of the episode? I could have sworn I heard them make their typical Walker noise ("I'm-Hungry," but without words). I thought the camera would pull back and we'd see a few hundred outside the walls.

 

No, I thought I heard it too. But, then again, I also kept envisioning Wolves in my backyard every time I had to let my dog out last night. This show may be getting to me a bit....

 

 

 

 

At the end, Carol saw an 'A' in a circle on the porch railing of a house. I wonder if that was some sort of marker for the Wolves.

 

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I thought that 'A' was put there by Sam, Jessie's son. He had an 'A' on his hand last season, and had given Rick a stamp too. I think it stands for Alexandria, and he was stamping Carol's house because he sees her as one of them. 

 

 

 

I don't think Enid is a Wolf. There was nothing in her backstory to indicate she knew them. I think she is just a survivor and that's why she's bonded with Carl. They've both seen life outside those walls.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think you're probably right. And I think it's that bond with Carl that has caused her to leave. She's doing the whole, "I can't get close to people!" thing, because she doesn't want to lose anyone else she loves, as she did with her parents. 

 

 

Not sure about my feelings for Morgan yet.  I don't think he's a coward at all.  Stupid, maybe.  Naive? Definitely.

 

I don't think Morgan is a coward. Not at all. Not even close. He is nothing like FPP, and his crying on a rock, begging for Jesus to come save him. 

 

But I do think his current mentality is very very stupid, and dangerous. As I said upthread, his unwillingness to kill Wolves (like the two in the woods) is essentially getting other good, innocent people killed. I just have little patience for that. I would be fine if he didn't want to kill someone like Nicholas or Randall, but these Wolves are cut and dry psychopaths and I cannot see any reason to leave them alive.  

 

I do think there is more to this with Morgan, and I want to find out more about where he's been and why he's like this. I don't think he will stay this way. I hope not at least. 

Edited October 19, 2015 by ghoulina

[MrWhyt]

First, Tyreese was the scaredy-cat compared with her badassery, and now we have Morgan being stupid compared to her smarts.  This is the same Morgan who has survived on his own for God knows how long in the ZA, apparently without a gun and just that pole, who all of sudden has to learn to be a badass killer from the likes of Queen Carol (tm Mighty Sparrow).  

 

I don't think the show is portraying him as stupid, he just clearly is operating with a different philosophy than Rick's group. A philosophy that IMO is not going to work short term in the ZA, some people need to be killed to protect others. 

[dannymoon]

It was noted on TTD that Carol's casserole needed to bake for 45 minutes and that's how long the Wolves' attack played out in real time. I love it when a plan comes together.

So that means the walkers are approximately 45 zombie-shuffling minutes away, despite being able to hear the horn? I kept thinking the walkers were closer and was expecting them any second, but this episode certainly didn't need them. Shit hitting the fan in Alexandria part deux coming up.

 

Carol disguised as a wolf: Brilliant, and she certainly is, but I kept getting nervous that someone would shoot her, like Carl. And then his sorta kinda gf Enid just strolls into his house casually among the chaos, "I'm leaving, see ya". It didn't occur to me until I saw it here that she could be a wolf herself! I'm not sure I get that, but it would explain her nonchalance.

Edited October 19, 2015 by dannymoon

[Caelicola]

I think it's very difficult to not see races, in this show as in everything else, because society still is deeply racist, so I understand the frustration with the treatment of black men on this show (black women, on the other hand, are surprisingly well treated), but I also fundamentally disagree that they've all been shown as cowards, or put in a bad light by Carol's ass-kickery. The only character who's actively been depicted as a coward is FPP; Tyreese has always been a very positive character (I think he absolutely schooled Carol in what it means to be human when he forgave her in The Grove, and let's not forget that the show had her very much at his mercy in that whole final scene), whose main flaw wasn't cowardice but being too kind and gentle for his own good (I also remember a lot of people really pissed when, in season 4, he got violent with Rick, contesting his portrayal as a stereotypical Angry Black Man, so sometimes there is really no way of not making huge missteps).

Bob was an alcoholic, who made a big mistake and spent season 4 atoning for it, but who was never really portrayed as cowardly or weak, on the contrary, he died with a smile on his lips and optimistic advice for everyone, in spite of how brutal his experiences had been.

Morgan is in no way a coward, or a punk, and I don't think that was the point of the episode at all; the conflict wasn't between "is too afraid to kill" versus "she's a badass who can teach him to survive", but between "he's been alone all this time and has developed a method that saves both his life and his sanity" versus "she's protecting her group with everything she has, because she knows from experience that it's necessary".

We've seen in last season's finale that Morgan can take care of himself, the problem is that he hasn't had to take care of anybody else for a very long time. Incapacitating and intimidating the enemy away from you works perfectly when you're on your own, not so much if you have kids, babies and Eugene around. He doesn't need to be taught anything from Carol, he just needs to shift his priorities from "every life is sacred" to "the lives of the people I love more so than those of the people who try to kill them", and I hope he sticks around to do so -because I love Lennie James.

[JusLaugh]

So THAT'S why they put the easily climbable angled supports on the outside of the wall, rather than the inside where they would clearly be more efficient. I've been wondering about that since the gang arrived in Alexandria.

[catrox14]

And in this episode, I think the writers focused specifically on Carol vs. Morgan to show just how much more of a badass she is over him. Obviously, opinions vary on this, but that's my take on it.

 

I didn't take it as Carol V Morgan to show one is better than the other. I took it as philosophical differences in how to deal with the Unfair Wolves.

I interpreted from the non verbal acting in their solo scenes after the battle was over and in passing each other in the road, as each was right in a certain way and each was wrong. Morgan got them to leave but realizes now that he's going have to kill non walker humans at times. And Carol realized that she may have killed too soon before getting some answers from a wolf they probably needed.

I thought it was beautiful juxtaposition between them. Not a competition. MV as always

Edited October 19, 2015 by catrox14