S02.E03: Fires Of Heaven

[represent]

 

This show is at it's best when it has some criminal activity or something other than just the music industry story. The music itself is great but I'm worried it's just going to be Dynasty vs. Empire: "I signed this artist (investor, etc), No, I did!" back and forth. I actually like the stuff with Lucious's mom because at least it's a little more deep.

Although I just started watching this season, I agree. They need to space out the victories between Luscious and Cookie, Cookie can't lose and Luscious win all the time and by the end of one episode.  It just can't be the focus of every episode. All battles can't be over signing/stealing this artist and that artist and keep up the character analysis with some flashbacks because I like them.

 

One thing about JR Ewing on Dallas, he use to have a lot of different enemies in business, including some of his side pieces trying to play him. The main inner family battle for power was between he and his brother Bobby, and Bobby had some wins that were sustained over a period of time but....

 

The problem is on this show Cookie is no Sue Ellen, she's not weak like that, Luscious can't melt her and knock her off her game like Jr. could Sue Ellen. She is more of an Alexis Carrington from Dynasty so she needs to be able to delve into her projects and reach some level of success over a bit of time at some point. Basically, Luscious is going to have to lose a bit if this show is going to sustain itself IMO.

Edited October 8, 2015 by represent

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Empire Strikes Back
Lucious is out of jail, back on top, and raining on everyone's parade...but for how long?

[Empress1]

Basically, Luscious is going to have to lose a bit if this show is going to sustain itself IMO.

I agree. I feel like that with House of Cards too - Frank needs a worthy adversary. So does Lucious. Otherwise it's just tedious.

 

"Guadalupe, you need to go find your draws!" was the best line of the episode. Second was Anika's line about the animal prints in Cookie's wardrobe. And Cookie with the Fame cane was gold. I think I read that we see some of Cookie's time in prison this season, and I really want to.

[represent]

 

I agree. I feel like that with House of Cards too - Frank needs a worthy adversary. So does Lucious. Otherwise it's just tedious.

"Guadalupe, you need to go find your draws!" was the best line of the episode. Second was Anika's line about the animal prints in Cookie's wardrobe. And Cookie with the Fame cane was gold. I think I read that we see some of Cookie's time in prison this season, and I really want to.

Not only that, he needs to have more than one worthy adversary or more than one character who thinks he/she is a worthy adversary. JR had his hands in so many pots, daggers were coming at him for all angels, that's why "who shot JR was so good". So many people had a reason to shoot his ass.

 

And Cookie to me is his equal, she's tougher than Bobby Ewing and she sure as hell ain't no Cliff Barns so the writers need to turn it up.

 

Yes, and the "Living La Vida Loca" line, hilarious.   Good, we get to see some Cookie prison flashback,  I love a good backstory for characters, truly gives the show its depth IMO. I'm a character driven viewer anyway. 

 

Oh and I have to say it's so good to see Bubbles from the Wire, his character's ending was so heartwarming, I got all teary eyed. It's good to see the actor working.

Speaking of actors from the Wire, that scene in the jail right before Chris Rock's character gets killed, where Luscious is going around the room and one by one talking about how and why the other inmates are loyal to him, reminded me of Michael K. William's (aka Omar)character Chalky White's jail scene in Boardwalk Empire.

Edited October 8, 2015 by represent

[Chicago Redshirt]

And Cookie with the Fame cane was gold.

 

I thought it was supposed to be a homage to Morris Day in "Purple Rain" when he was having Apollonia Six practice. "So what's the matter? Your shoes too tight or something? Let's have some action. Let's have some asses wigglin'. I want some perfection!"

[GreekGeek]

I don't get this.  What heart did it have last season?  

See, shows can't be the same season after season because, like in real life, stuff happens and people and situations change.

I think the show seemed to have more "heart" before because Lucious was more vulnerable. When we--and he--thought he had ALS, it seemed as though he wasn't going to be able to defeat the ultimate enemy of Death. Once it turned out he wasn't as sick as everyone thought, nothing else brought him down for long. 

[Gigi43]

Lucious strikes me more as the kind of guy to be ignorant enough to consider the grandkid "safe" from BPD, considering his mother was, he isn't, his son is, so the baby will be "like him". It would have fit just leaving it as Lucious thinking Andre shouldn't raise a child since he's BP and that could mess a kid up in the same way that this is the man who wouldn't "allow" Lola to live with Jamal because he was gay and all; not that it could be passed down. 

 

Cookie and Hakeem's "where'd you learn that?"/"prison" exchange was fun. Though he really shouldn't have been that surprised. Between Hakeem putting his album online last week and his stupid promise to Sway, who can really blame Andre at all for not wanting to work with them? He didn't go to college to clean up his brothers impulses. Andre is quickly becoming my favorite of the brothers this season, where as last season he was just kind of around to me, I can't say I really liked or really disliked him.

 

I wish we could have seen the guy Becky said Jamal claimed was "too quirky". Maybe he was related to Guam lawyer, who is still entertaining.

[kieyra]

I think the show seemed to have more "heart" before because Lucious was more vulnerable. When we--and he--thought he had ALS, it seemed as though he wasn't going to be able to defeat the ultimate enemy of Death. Once it turned out he wasn't as sick as everyone thought, nothing else brought him down for long.

And in the bigger picture, this is what happens when a show burns through crazy plot twists too fast--it's a fun ride at first, but then it's just kind of empty and repetitive.

[wanderingstar]

Lucious is beginning to have a J.R. Ewing-like grin at the end of some eppies, like when he knows he got over.

 

So, this means we get out Who Shot Lucious mystery that we so richly deserve, right?

[wayne67]

I enjoyed Season 1 because while they were all fighting to take the throne it seemed less hostile somehow as they were merely trying to prove they were a worthy successor to the empire to dying Daddy.

 

Now it seems like they're all trying to climb all each other to claw it out of Lucious grip and it just comes across as kind of offbeat and petty IMO.

 

Not that Lucious doesn't deserve to be knocked down like 50 pegs but it all seems like the attempts are so grade school. Hakeem just announces that he essentially stole a song from his previous label and leaked it online. Frankly Cookie and Hakeem both seem to be unable to keep their mouths shut. You don't announce that you're trying to take someone down. YOU JUST DO IT.

 

They have a start up and they're going against an established brand that has millions of dollars and multiple artists and declaring themselves to be the ones to bring Empire down. All I can think is maybe you should sell a record or something before you get all high and mighty about how you're going to be the next big dogs.

 

More importantly when did Lyon Dynasty hire so much staff? How are they getting paid? Who's bankrolling this start up ?

 

I don't know. This show isn't doing it for me, half the time the sub plots show up and disappear so fast it's like wait am I supposed to care that Jamal or Papa Lyon may have a daughter ? No DNA test ? Are we supposed to forget about the head in the box, or Lucious organising a hit in prison or the crazily unprofessional prosecutor. I'm also not a fan of all the casual racism. It's not even funny racism. It's just tedious.

Edited October 9, 2015 by wayne67

[RCharter]

So, this means we get out Who Shot Lucious mystery that we so richly deserve, right?

at this point it may be more of a Clue style mystery.

 

Andre in the office with the candlestick?

 

Cookie in the bedroom with the pillow?

 

Jamal dropping him off a roof?

[RCharter]

I enjoyed Season 1 because while they were all fighting to take the throne it seemed less hostile somehow as they were merely trying to prove they were a worthy successor to the empire to dying Daddy.

 

Now it seems like they're all trying to climb all each other to claw it out of Lucious grip and it just comes across as kind of offbeat and petty IMO.

 

Not that Lucious doesn't deserve to be knocked down like 50 pegs but it all seems like the attempts are so grade school. Hakeem just announces that he essentially stole a song from his previous label and leaked it online. Frankly Cookie and Hakeem both seem to be unable to keep their mouths shut. You don't announce that you're trying to take someone down. YOU JUST DO IT.

 

They have a start up and they're going against an established brand that has millions of dollars and multiple artists and declaring themselves to be the ones to bring Empire down. All I can think is maybe you should sell a record or something before you get all high and mighty about how you're going to be the next big dogs.

 

More importantly when did Lyon Dynasty hire so much staff? How are they getting paid? Who's bankrolling this start up ?

 

I don't know. This show isn't doing it for me, half the time the sub plots show up and disappear so fast it's like wait am I supposed to care that Jamal or Papa Lyon may have a daughter ? No DNA test ? Are we supposed to forget about the head in the box, or Lucious organising a hit in prison or the crazily unprofessional prosecutor. I'm also not a fan of all the casual racism. It's not even funny racism. It's just tedious.

 

I think to enjoy this show you have to have some willing suspension of disbelief.  That means, yeah, you make one successful move and in order for the show to demonstrate to you that Dynasty is really getting traction they suddenly have a staff.  It means that people make "TV moves" like announcing you're going to bring down a giant record label with your small start up.  When you can't suspend disbelief with these shows, I think it ruins the viewing experience.  I couldn't do it with How to Get Away With Murder...so I just stopped watching.

 

I know they all tried a hostile takeover, but didn't they all have shares in the company that would have been sold in the IPO?

[Paron Xanthis]

I loved Hakeem's loyalty to Cookie.

He could've taken the easy route and gone back Empire, but he chose to stick it out & build with his mother. Admirable.

Isn't it amazing how far Cookie and Hakeem have already come?  Back when the show started, Hakeem didn't want anything to do with Cookie, going so far as calling her a bitch and getting beaten with a broom.  Now look at them!

 

My reaction to Cookie ruining the dinner was basically derived from channeling Linda Belcher: "Aw.  That was good food."

 

I'm surprised to ask this, being black myself, but I have to know.  The attorney at the beginning of the episode called Lucious a sociopath.  I know whites and Latinos can be sociopaths, but have there ever really been black sociopaths, too?

[wayne67]

I think to enjoy this show you have to have some willing suspension of disbelief.  That means, yeah, you make one successful move and in order for the show to demonstrate to you that Dynasty is really getting traction they suddenly have a staff.  It means that people make "TV moves" like announcing you're going to bring down a giant record label with your small start up.  When you can't suspend disbelief with these shows, I think it ruins the viewing experience.  I couldn't do it with How to Get Away With Murder...so I just stopped watching.

 

I know they all tried a hostile takeover, but didn't they all have shares in the company that would have been sold in the IPO?

 

I think my problem is that nothing really hangs together in this show. If nothing has consequences for the characters, it makes me less invested in their lives. Andre disposed of Vernon's dead body and seems none too concerned about it, Cookie got a head mailed to her and is more concerned about getting back at her ex husband or something.

 

Honestly why is Cookie starting a new company to give to her sons ? Shouldn't the point of this series about these adult men actually making their own money instead of being handed Empire or Dynasty once their parents are done with their power plays over their children ?

 

Jamal and Hakeem are theoretically successful artists, why do either of them need their parents to 'produce' them. I guess I don't really like any of the characters any more because the sons have no backbones and the parents are rampant racists.

[RCharter]

I think my problem is that nothing really hangs together in this show. If nothing has consequences for the characters, it makes me less invested in their lives. Andre disposed of Vernon's dead body and seems none too concerned about it, Cookie got a head mailed to her and is more concerned about getting back at her ex husband or something.

 

Honestly why is Cookie starting a new company to give to her sons ? Shouldn't the point of this series about these adult men actually making their own money instead of being handed Empire or Dynasty once their parents are done with their power plays over their children ?

 

Jamal and Hakeem are theoretically successful artists, why do either of them need their parents to 'produce' them. I guess I don't really like any of the characters any more because the sons have no backbones and the parents are rampant racists.

 

But there is never going to really be consequences to anything in most of their lives on this show.  Lucius is not going to be locked up for 20 years over killing Bunkie.  Rhonda is not going to serve a minute of jail time over Vernon.  I guess they can be haunted by their actions, but thats going to be about the long and short of it.  Andre is having nightmares about it, but if Rhonda isn't going to go to jail for it, he certainly isn't.  Jamal isn't going to catch an assault charge for hanging that guy from Creedmoor off a building.

 

Cookie got a head mailed to her and it served as a way for her to get back in touch with Lucius and for them to have their moment and to establish that no matter what the two of them do to each other he will still always make sure she is safe and taken care of.  Without the head we would have never had her reaching out to him.  The person who sent her the head has been killed, I'm not sure how much more she needs to stress out about, besides the mental stress of having gotten a head in a box.  I don't see this show as being one that delves into introspective therapy sessions for that sort of thing.

 

I understood Cookie to say that she wanted to start Dynasty to have a legacy for her family.  To have a family company that the boys can be a part of.  This show has always been about family, business and power.  From the first episode of the first season.  All of the children worked for Empire/at Empire.  Dynasty is simply Cookie's Empire, except she seems to encourage her children to be an integral part of it rather than ruling it with an iron fist the way Lucius does with Empire.

 

Jamal and Hakeem both see their parents as the best producers out there.  If a good producer makes a difference, I would think you would want the best, and a producer that can work well with you.  Look at what Missy/Timbaland did for Aaliyah's career. 

 

If you just don't like the characters I think that's an opinion and that's cool.  There are plenty of characters on TV that I just don't like.

 

 Personally though, I think it's pretty early in the second season to say that the adult sons have suddenly lost all backbone.  Andre never had one to begin with, his greatest act of defiance was probably marrying Rhonda when it was clear that Lucius doesn't like her.  Hakeem seems to be standing up to his dad pretty good in these past two episodes by refusing to come back to Empire, working with Cookie (and telling her that he wanted to produce his girl group his way), and calling his dad out in his song.  Jamal stood up to Cookie, even though she has been his strongest supporter, however, he doesn't seem much invested in standing up to Lucius, but from where I sit the seeds of dissent between the two of them have been sown.

 

If you don't like Cookie and Lucius because you feel like they are racist -- I kind of get it, but Lucius hasn't made many racist comments.  He called the prosecutor a black bitch in cheap shoes, but I think that was more of a way of him trying to call her an uncle tom.  That's the only one I can remember.  Cookie has always made comments that are insensitive of both race and sexual orientation so I can't understand how it wasn't a problem last year?  

Edited October 9, 2015 by RCharter

[wayne67]

But there is never going to really be consequences to anything in most of their lives on this show.  Lucius is not going to be locked up for 20 years over killing Bunkie.  Rhonda is not going to serve a minute of jail time over Vernon.  I guess they can be haunted by their actions, but thats going to be about the long and short of it.  Andre is having nightmares about it, but if Rhonda isn't going to go to jail for it, he certainly isn't.  Jamal isn't going to catch an assault charge for hanging that guy from Creedmoor off a building.

 

Cookie got a head mailed to her and it served as a way for her to get back in touch with Lucius and for them to have their moment and to establish that no matter what the two of them do to each other he will still always make sure she is safe and taken care of.  Without the head we would have never had her reaching out to him.  The person who sent her the head has been killed, I'm not sure how much more she needs to stress out about, besides the mental stress of having gotten a head in a box.  I don't see this show as being one that delves into introspective therapy sessions for that sort of thing.

 

I understood Cookie to say that she wanted to start Dynasty to have a legacy for her family.  To have a family company that the boys can be a part of.  This show has always been about family, business and power.  From the first episode of the first season.  All of the children worked for Empire/at Empire.  Dynasty is simply Cookie's Empire, except she seems to encourage her children to be an integral part of it rather than ruling it with an iron fist the way Lucius does with Empire.

 

Jamal and Hakeem both see their parents as the best producers out there.  If a good producer makes a difference, I would think you would want the best, and a producer that can work well with you.  Look at what Missy/Timbaland did for Aaliyah's career. 

 

If you just don't like the characters I think that's an opinion and that's cool.  There are plenty of characters on TV that I just don't like.

 

 Personally though, I think it's pretty early in the second season to say that the adult sons have suddenly lost all backbone.  Andre never had one to begin with, his greatest act of defiance was probably marrying Rhonda when it was clear that Lucius doesn't like her.  Hakeem seems to be standing up to his dad pretty good in these past two episodes by refusing to come back to Empire, working with Cookie (and telling her that he wanted to produce his girl group his way), and calling his dad out in his song.  Jamal stood up to Cookie, even though she has been his strongest supporter, however, he doesn't seem much invested in standing up to Lucius, but from where I sit the seeds of dissent between the two of them have been sown.

 

If you don't like Cookie and Lucius because you feel like they are racist -- I kind of get it, but Lucius hasn't made many racist comments.  He called the prosecutor a black bitch in cheap shoes, but I think that was more of a way of him trying to call her an uncle tom.  That's the only one I can remember.  Cookie has always made comments that are insensitive of both race and sexual orientation so I can't understand how it wasn't a problem last year?  

 

Well let's see Jamal is bowing down to his father's whims, letting himself being used as a puppet after spending the entire first season telling his father he wouldn't bend to him. Hakeem went from being a smart mouthed trust fund brat and sort of favored son of Lucious to being under his mother's thumb. Andre has been abandoned by his dad again and he doesn't want to be in a start up but he's still desperate for his father's approval instead of getting a clue that his father is a prick.

 

Cookie's racism was less annoying in the first season because she got out of jail like one minute previously and her dissing out Jamal's boy of the week was kind of amusing. Now she's sass mouthing the talent she hasn't bothered signing and the woman who just gave her valuable information after being out of jail for quite a while. She also interrupts business meetings and interviews showing no sense of decorum even though she's saying she's some sort of wannabe business mogul.

 

As for Lucious he made some really assy comment about not letting Andre inherit because he might have have some biracial kids and he didn't want white people anywhere near his company, totally ignoring the fact that he's selling out his company to the highest bidders by going public. There's also the comments he made about that woman in episode 2 who was standing close to Cookie who bought a controlling interest in the company.

 

I have no idea if they ended up divesting shares in any particular way since their last meeting about it got interrupted by some crazy dude with a gun.

[Syndicate]

But there is never going to really be consequences to anything in most of their lives on this show.  Lucius is not going to be locked up for 20 years over killing Bunkie.  Rhonda is not going to serve a minute of jail time over Vernon.  I guess they can be haunted by their actions, but thats going to be about the long and short of it.  Andre is having nightmares about it, but if Rhonda isn't going to go to jail for it, he certainly isn't.  Jamal isn't going to catch an assault charge for hanging that guy from Creedmoor off a building.

 

Cookie got a head mailed to her and it served as a way for her to get back in touch with Lucius and for them to have their moment and to establish that no matter what the two of them do to each other he will still always make sure she is safe and taken care of.  Without the head we would have never had her reaching out to him.  The person who sent her the head has been killed, I'm not sure how much more she needs to stress out about, besides the mental stress of having gotten a head in a box.  I don't see this show as being one that delves into introspective therapy sessions for that sort of thing.

 

I understood Cookie to say that she wanted to start Dynasty to have a legacy for her family.  To have a family company that the boys can be a part of.  This show has always been about family, business and power.  From the first episode of the first season.  All of the children worked for Empire/at Empire.  Dynasty is simply Cookie's Empire, except she seems to encourage her children to be an integral part of it rather than ruling it with an iron fist the way Lucius does with Empire.

 

Jamal and Hakeem both see their parents as the best producers out there.  If a good producer makes a difference, I would think you would want the best, and a producer that can work well with you.  Look at what Missy/Timbaland did for Aaliyah's career. 

 

If you just don't like the characters I think that's an opinion and that's cool.  There are plenty of characters on TV that I just don't like.

 

 Personally though, I think it's pretty early in the second season to say that the adult sons have suddenly lost all backbone.  Andre never had one to begin with, his greatest act of defiance was probably marrying Rhonda when it was clear that Lucius doesn't like her.  Hakeem seems to be standing up to his dad pretty good in these past two episodes by refusing to come back to Empire, working with Cookie (and telling her that he wanted to produce his girl group his way), and calling his dad out in his song.  Jamal stood up to Cookie, even though she has been his strongest supporter, however, he doesn't seem much invested in standing up to Lucius, but from where I sit the seeds of dissent between the two of them have been sown.

 

If you don't like Cookie and Lucius because you feel like they are racist -- I kind of get it, but Lucius hasn't made many racist comments.  He called the prosecutor a black bitch in cheap shoes, but I think that was more of a way of him trying to call her an uncle tom.  That's the only one I can remember.  Cookie has always made comments that are insensitive of both race and sexual orientation so I can't understand how it wasn't a problem last year?  

The point of the Andre/Rhonda/Vernon story is that there is drama to be told regardless of whether or not they serve time in jail.  At the very least, Andre and Rhonda have broken the law by not reporting what happened with Vernon.  There's drama there, so let's get on with it rather than ignore it.

[RCharter]

Well let's see Jamal is bowing down to his father's whims, letting himself being used as a puppet after spending the entire first season telling his father he wouldn't bend to him. Hakeem went from being a smart mouthed trust fund brat and sort of favored son of Lucious to being under his mother's thumb. Andre has been abandoned by his dad again and he doesn't want to be in a start up but he's still desperate for his father's approval instead of getting a clue that his father is a prick.

 

Cookie's racism was less annoying in the first season because she got out of jail like one minute previously and her dissing out Jamal's boy of the week was kind of amusing. Now she's sass mouthing the talent she hasn't bothered signing and the woman who just gave her valuable information after being out of jail for quite a while. She also interrupts business meetings and interviews showing no sense of decorum even though she's saying she's some sort of wannabe business mogul.

 

As for Lucious he made some really assy comment about not letting Andre inherit because he might have have some biracial kids and he didn't want white people anywhere near his company, totally ignoring the fact that he's selling out his company to the highest bidders by going public. There's also the comments he made about that woman in episode 2 who was standing close to Cookie who bought a controlling interest in the company.

 

I have no idea if they ended up divesting shares in any particular way since their last meeting about it got interrupted by some crazy dude with a gun.

How is Hakeem under his mother's thumb?  By working with her?  He made it clear that he was staying with Dynasty for his own reasons -- to make his own legacy and moves.  He told her to leave him alone when he was working with his girl group.  Hakeem told Sway he would have the girl group ready in three days even though Cookie told him not to.  He is hardly some sycophant.  

 

Jamal has still not given up his boyfriend, or the lifestyle that drove Lucius to disown him in the first place.  If anything, Jamal is even more public about being gay by giving interviews about his live in boyfriend.  Lucius had to fold on that one, not Jamal.  Jamal becoming Lucius, Jr. has simply shown how easily power can corrupt.  As for being a puppet, it seems like the agreement was always that Lucius control Empire from jail.  Jamal has been pretty clear that he wants to work on his music.  In fact, he was ready to walk into Cookie's studio last week until Lucius offered to produce his album.  And we're only three episodes in, and Lucius just got out of jail so you don't really know if Jamal is going to just hand back power to Lucius, especially since Lucius isn't allowed to even go inside Empire.  

 

Andre has never had a backbone when it comes to Lucius.  They established that last season.  

 

Cookie has always interrupted business meetings.  I just don't get all the sudden annoyance of things she has been doing from the first season.  Cookie sass mouths everyone.  She is hard on everyone, and whoever that girl was was fine with it.  She said it herself, she went to Empire as a business move and that was all.  She sass mouthed Tianna last season after she was caught with another girl.  I mean, honestly, when has Cookie ever shown a sense of decorum on this show?  Was there even one episode where Cookie's behavior would have been approved by Emily Post?

 

I don't remember Lucius making that comment last episode at all about the child Andre would have.  And if he made that comment last season than again, its hard for me to understand having a problem with the race based remarks this season, but not last season.  Even with an IPO, Lucius may have retained the majority of the voting stock, like Zuckerberg at Facebook.  The only thing I believe he said about Mimi was about how she was a lesbian.  Given Lucius's way worse behavior towards gay people in season 1, I can't see how this has just become a problem in season 2?

The point of the Andre/Rhonda/Vernon story is that there is drama to be told regardless of whether or not they serve time in jail.  At the very least, Andre and Rhonda have broken the law by not reporting what happened with Vernon.  There's drama there, so let's get on with it rather than ignore it.

But what are the consequences?  Maybe psychiatric for Andre and Rhonda is left to fend for herself.  But if Lucius thought that Vernon ratted him out, and it was Vernon that ratted him out maybe its the one thing that gets Andre that gold star he has been looking for.  Although Lucius didn't seem to care that Andre gave him an alibi for Bunkie's murder, so maybe not.

 

It seems like it could possibly just be a way for Lucius to not have to go to prison and for the case to fall apart.  Or not, but again, we are three episodes in, I'm sure the prosecutor will get around to really looking for Vernon and drama around that will ensue.  And if it doesn't, I'm fine with that too as long as the show is entertaining.

[Milz]

I'm surprised to ask this, being black myself, but I have to know.  The attorney at the beginning of the episode called Lucious a sociopath.  I know whites and Latinos can be sociopaths, but have there ever really been black sociopaths, too?

 

Here's a link about anti-social personality disorder (AKA sociopath, psychopath). http://www.md-health.com/Sociopath-Traits.html. To paraphrase Johnny Cochran, "if the criteria you have, you're a sociopath".

 

"According to ICD-10 criteria, presence of 3 or more of the following qualifies for the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder (~sociopathy):

   1. Callous unconcern for the feelings of others.

    2. Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, and obligations.

    3. Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them.

    4. Very low tolerance to frustration, a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.

    5. Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment.

    6. Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalization for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society."

[Syndicate]

How is Hakeem under his mother's thumb?  By working with her?  He made it clear that he was staying with Dynasty for his own reasons -- to make his own legacy and moves.  He told her to leave him alone when he was working with his girl group.  Hakeem told Sway he would have the girl group ready in three days even though Cookie told him not to.  He is hardly some sycophant.  

 

Jamal has still not given up his boyfriend, or the lifestyle that drove Lucius to disown him in the first place.  If anything, Jamal is even more public about being gay by giving interviews about his live in boyfriend.  Lucius had to fold on that one, not Jamal.  Jamal becoming Lucius, Jr. has simply shown how easily power can corrupt.  As for being a puppet, it seems like the agreement was always that Lucius control Empire from jail.  Jamal has been pretty clear that he wants to work on his music.  In fact, he was ready to walk into Cookie's studio last week until Lucius offered to produce his album.  And we're only three episodes in, and Lucius just got out of jail so you don't really know if Jamal is going to just hand back power to Lucius, especially since Lucius isn't allowed to even go inside Empire.  

 

Andre has never had a backbone when it comes to Lucius.  They established that last season.  

 

Cookie has always interrupted business meetings.  I just don't get all the sudden annoyance of things she has been doing from the first season.  Cookie sass mouths everyone.  She is hard on everyone, and whoever that girl was was fine with it.  She said it herself, she went to Empire as a business move and that was all.  She sass mouthed Tianna last season after she was caught with another girl.  I mean, honestly, when has Cookie ever shown a sense of decorum on this show?  Was there even one episode where Cookie's behavior would have been approved by Emily Post?

 

I don't remember Lucius making that comment last episode at all about the child Andre would have.  And if he made that comment last season than again, its hard for me to understand having a problem with the race based remarks this season, but not last season.  Even with an IPO, Lucius may have retained the majority of the voting stock, like Zuckerberg at Facebook.  The only thing I believe he said about Mimi was about how she was a lesbian.  Given Lucius's way worse behavior towards gay people in season 1, I can't see how this has just become a problem in season 2?

But what are the consequences?  Maybe psychiatric for Andre and Rhonda is left to fend for herself.  But if Lucius thought that Vernon ratted him out, and it was Vernon that ratted him out maybe its the one thing that gets Andre that gold star he has been looking for.  Although Lucius didn't seem to care that Andre gave him an alibi for Bunkie's murder, so maybe not.

 

It seems like it could possibly just be a way for Lucius to not have to go to prison and for the case to fall apart.  Or not, but again, we are three episodes in, I'm sure the prosecutor will get around to really looking for Vernon and drama around that will ensue.  And if it doesn't, I'm fine with that too as long as the show is entertaining.

Empire is a SO-CALLED soap opera.  There doesn't need to be dire consequences for characters, just ensuing drama.  Andre being thrown into a psychiatric hospital sounds wonderful for drama's sake.  Let it be a co-ed hospital where he meets a beautiful woman who's also there for psychiatric evaluation.  They help each other through their ordeal and the woman develops a romantic interest in him.  Andre shuts her down by telling her he's married and is ultimately released.  The beautiful woman is ultimately released as well after faking that she has become mentally stable to be released back into society.  She tracks down Andre and she apologizes to him for coming on to him in the psych hospital.  They agree to be friends (she secretly has more than friendship in mind since she's still a whack job) and he gets her a job at Lyon Dynasty.  Rhonda is ultimately released and she and Andre continue to concentrate on becoming parents.  While working at Lyon Dynasty, the beautiful whack job formulates her plan to torpedo Andre's and Rhonda's marriage.  This is just old-fashioned soap stuff that usually always entertains.  It would also be a good subplot to all of the other silly stuff that happens on this show.  It would be a story created from the Vernon killing.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Syndicate

[Easyspreestep]

I have never been a Cookie fan, because I think she is just to entitled.  Why is Cookie pretending she is building the Lyon's Den for her son's.  Someone has to run it, just like Empire there has to be someone in charge.  Say what you want about Lucius but he NEVER denied his son's access to Empire (prior to the takeover attempt).  They all worked there or were signed artist so I'm not sure why Cookie is building the Den when the son's had a company that would be left to them.  Cookie can't leave all three in charge just as Luscious could not.  She makes no sense.  Jamal is behaving like a spoiled brat period he wants attention from Daddy so NOOOOO other producer can help him  really??? It's good Cookie is taking some lumps, she won to much last season, she was in prison for 17 years and came out ready to produce new hit music with contacts like Sway really.  She needs to understand how the game works.  Also why is Cookie always mad at Lucius for winning really he gave you a chance to come home and you told him to kiss your a*** and when you lose Lucius is evil  really?  He has been far nicer than I would have been.

[Milz]

I have never been a Cookie fan, because I think she is just to entitled.  Why is Cookie pretending she is building the Lyon's Den for her son's.  Someone has to run it, just like Empire there has to be someone in charge.  Say what you want about Lucius but he NEVER denied his son's access to Empire (prior to the takeover attempt).  They all worked there or were signed artist so I'm not sure why Cookie is building the Den when the son's had a company that would be left to them.  Cookie can't leave all three in charge just as Luscious could not.  She makes no sense.  Jamal is behaving like a spoiled brat period he wants attention from Daddy so NOOOOO other producer can help him  really??? It's good Cookie is taking some lumps, she won to much last season, she was in prison for 17 years and came out ready to produce new hit music with contacts like Sway really.  She needs to understand how the game works.  Also why is Cookie always mad at Lucius for winning really he gave you a chance to come home and you told him to kiss your a*** and when you lose Lucius is evil  really?  He has been far nicer than I would have been.

 

Lucious spent last season playing Andre, Jamal and Hakeem off each other. He promised them control of Empire provided they did X, Y, Z---which included Jamal and Hakeem vying for the main artist of the label. So while I think Lucious loves his sons, the degree of his love is very conditional. And I think they know it given the way Lucious threw Jamal in the trash can when he was a little boy and the problems Lucious and Jamal had over the years.

 

Not only did Cookie see that when the children were little, she saw that when she went to jail and Lucious never visited her. And from what Hakeem hinted at last season, he never brought the children to visit her either. I do think Lyon Dynasty is Cookie's way of making sure that her sons will have a job and will have a record label, should Lucious decide to throw them out for one reason of the other.

 

As for Cookie's entitlement.....she does deserve a part of Empire. Not only did the money she made from dealing start Empire, she was also instrumental in Lucious' recording career.

[Lila82]

Lucious has going full on Sonny Corinthos and it's unpleasant to watch.  

 

He never loses, which makes his character the opposite of compelling.  Cookie is interesting enough without her entire story arc being an uphill battle against him.  All the female characters lose their brains around him.  The rockstar DA can't find a blouse that covers her boobs.  Anika and Cookie's tentative truce is rooted in bringing him down rather than utilizing their skills as smart, motivated, kickass women.  No one calls him out on how he talks to, and how little he values, women.   He has too many children with too many women.  A daughter he passed off as his granddaughter is gross.  I need some balance in the writing for his character, some self-awareness, and growth.  And for him to stop being such a dick to Andre.  Poor, poor Andre.

 

The actor playing Young Luscious is a stunningly beautiful child.

 

I don't get this. What heart did it have last season?

 

I don't know if "heart" is the right word, but there were emotional touchstones in Cookie/Jamal and Jamal/Hakeem.  With both those relationships on the outs, there's nothing to ground the show, making the insanity feel like a cover for an empty emotional core.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Lila82

[Dee]

I don't feel the show is empty emotionally. As Lucious said in this episode, the Lyons are, and will always be, a family. A dysfunctional family, certainly, but a family nonetheless. The characters are growing, including Lucious.

 

Last season Lucious refused to deal with Jamal, now he's willing to collaborate with him as a musician, which is about as high a compliment as one can receive from Lucious. Cookie & Hakeem are another Lyon duo experiencing significant growth. Last season, they could barely be in the same room without snapping at each other. Now they're working together as business partners and learning how to trust each other's intuition.  Last season Andre had no use for Cookie, now he visits her to confide about Rhonda's impending pregnancy. Though Hakeem upstaged Jamal & Lucious at Leviticus, they showed a grudging respect for his talent & despite feeling personally betrayed by Cookie, Jamal sought her out as the producer for his next album.

 

No, the characters are not the same as they were in Season One, nor should they be. They're evolving, and they're the better for it.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Dee

[Easyspreestep]

As for Cookie's entitlement.....she does deserve a part of Empire. Not only did the money she made from dealing start Empire, she was also instrumental in Lucious' recording career.

 

 

 

Cookie did get a piece of Empire, a huge salary and a big title and position in the company upon her release.  However that was not enough for her she wanted it all and now she has, the start up.

[represent]

 

I have never been a Cookie fan, because I think she is just to entitled.

Cookie seems to be many things but entitled ain't one of them. That woman ain't afraid of hard work and starting at the bottom if she has to and she does, therefore she is doing just that, broom in hand and all.

 

Sorry, I just always associate the word entitled with people who want to sit on their ass and do absolutely nothing to help themselves, while expecting someone else to do it ALL for them.

 

No, the characters are not the same as they were in Season One, nor should they be. They're evolving, and they're the better for it.

 

Which is key for me, because if they don't I lose interest real fast. 

 

I now realize who Cookie looked like in that getup at Luscious' party, like Tina Turner in Mad Max Under the Thunderdome.

Edited October 9, 2015 by represent

[wayne67]

How is Hakeem under his mother's thumb?  By working with her?  He made it clear that he was staying with Dynasty for his own reasons -- to make his own legacy and moves.  He told her to leave him alone when he was working with his girl group.  Hakeem told Sway he would have the girl group ready in three days even though Cookie told him not to.  He is hardly some sycophant.  

Cookie has always interrupted business meetings.  I just don't get all the sudden annoyance of things she has been doing from the first season.  Cookie sass mouths everyone.  She is hard on everyone, and whoever that girl was was fine with it.  She said it herself, she went to Empire as a business move and that was all.  She sass mouthed Tianna last season after she was caught with another girl.  I mean, honestly, when has Cookie ever shown a sense of decorum on this show?  Was there even one episode where Cookie's behavior would have been approved by Emily Post?

 

He may not be a sycophant but he's not exactly his own boss at Lyon Dynasty any more than he was at Empire. He is still having a parent over his shoulder at work telling him what to do. He didn't listen at Empire and he's not listening at Lyon Dynasty. I just don't really see much growth for him. He still comes across as a petulant trust fund brat. If he wants to be in charge, why can't he start his own company?

 

Yeah... Cookie continues to show a lack of decorum, despite months away from prison. I just find it hard to consider her a savvy business woman when she storms into a corporate meeting and interrupts. It shows lack of respect to current leadership and a lack of respect to her prospective employees. Why would anyone who had another option want to work for her ? Why would anyone respect her ? She acts like a spoiled child, making a mess because they don't get their way. Like that dinner scene, she was annoyed at Lucious and she dragged out all the food so that someone else would be forced to clean up the mess. Just like the mess she made with Chris Rock's character. When Cookie and Hakeem bond over make scenes at work functions/places I roll my eyes and want the episode to end.

 

I guess for me it's a repetition issue. It feels like a sitcom already with characters running in place, going nowhere.

Edited October 9, 2015 by wayne67

[SailingBy]

I know they all tried a hostile takeover, but didn't they all have shares in the company that would have been sold in the IPO?

 

I can't find the articles on their website right now, but during season 1, the Wall Street Journal's real-world IPO specialist did a weekly analysis of what happened on Empire, comparing to what could happen in reality. In reality, they would still own their shares in Empire. I can't remember the time limit, but there are legal rules that limit sales of shares by people who own stock in a privately-owned company when it goes public, for a certain period after the IPO (which was definitely longer than what has been portrayed so far, as far as I can figure out the supposed timeline). Exactly to avoid shenanigans like the ones the Empire plotline relies on. Another problem was that Empire has voting and non-voting stock (a perfectly standard arrangement used by many companies), and the sons and Cookie only got non-voting stock. So as long as Lucious keeps control of a majority of the voting stock, it doesn't matter how many non-voting shares somebody manages to buy - a hostile takeover was always, by definition, impossible. Plus, real IPOs usually have even more specific safeguards against hostile takeovers built into them, by very expensive, specialist lawyers. Once again, to prevent the possibility of the kind of thing Empire is portraying from happening. It's hard to believe Lucious wouldn't have consulted those kind of lawyers beforehand, to make very sure he retains ultimate control.

[wayne67]

I can't find the articles on their website right now, but during season 1, the Wall Street Journal's real-world IPO specialist did a weekly analysis of what happened on Empire, comparing to what could happen in reality. In reality, they would still own their shares in Empire. I can't remember the time limit, but there are legal rules that limit sales of shares by people who own stock in a privately-owned company when it goes public, for a certain period after the IPO (which was definitely longer than what has been portrayed so far, as far as I can figure out the supposed timeline). Exactly to avoid shenanigans like the ones the Empire plotline relies on. Another problem was that Empire has voting and non-voting stock (a perfectly standard arrangement used by many companies), and the sons and Cookie only got non-voting stock. So as long as Lucious keeps control of a majority of the voting stock, it doesn't matter how many non-voting shares somebody manages to buy - a hostile takeover was always, by definition, impossible. Plus, real IPOs usually have even more specific safeguards against hostile takeovers built into them, by very expensive, specialist lawyers. Once again, to prevent the possibility of the kind of thing Empire is portraying from happening. It's hard to believe Lucious wouldn't have consulted those kind of lawyers beforehand, to make very sure he retains ultimate control.

 

That's kind of hilarious. I thought I put too much thought into this show but I guess it's like those people who evaluate how much money Iron Man's chamber of armors would be worth on the open market.

[RCharter]

He may not be a sycophant but he's not exactly his own boss at Lyon Dynasty any more than he was at Empire. He is still having a parent over his shoulder at work telling him what to do. He didn't listen at Empire and he's not listening at Lyon Dynasty. I just don't really see much growth for him. He still comes across as a petulant trust fund brat. If he wants to be in charge, why can't he start his own company?

 

Yeah... Cookie continues to show a lack of decorum, despite months away from prison. I just find it hard to consider her a savvy business woman when she storms into a corporate meeting and interrupts. It shows lack of respect to current leadership and a lack of respect to her prospective employees. Why would anyone who had another option want to work for her ? Why would anyone respect her ? She acts like a spoiled child, making a mess because they don't get their way. Like that dinner scene, she was annoyed at Lucious and she dragged out all the food so that someone else would be forced to clean up the mess. Just like the mess she made with Chris Rock's character. When Cookie and Hakeem bond over make scenes at work functions/places I roll my eyes and want the episode to end.

 

I guess for me it's a repetition issue. It feels like a sitcom already with characters running in place, going nowhere.

How is it you're under someone's thumb just because you've started a record label with them?  He is working with his mother to build something instead of being handed an opportunity at Empire.  Hakeem took back control of the recording session when Cookie tried to control it.  Hakeem found all the girls for his girl group instead of having Cookie in on it.  Cookie didn't even appear to have a vote on the group members.  He wouldn't even talk to Cookie in the first season and now he is working with her to create a label.  He has found an appropriate way to handle conflicts that arise by talking to her logically and rationally.  How is that not character growth?  He managed to think long term and refused to come back to Empire even though it would have been much easier and much more certain than Dynasty.

 

My point is that Cookie has been like this since the first episode of the first season.  If it wasn't a problem than, it shouldn't be a problem now.  The show hasn't suddenly sprung an entirely new Cookie on you.  She is a major part of the show, if you can't stand her than this should have never been the right show for you.

 

She didn't ruin the table so someone else would have to clean the mess, she clearly pulled the food off the table to one-up Lucius and to show him that he can't control her.    Her talent and ability are what get her respect and people that want to work with her.  She is clearly a very talented producer.  People have worked with worse personalities because of their talent -- Phil Specter comes to mind.

 

Everyone feels however they feel, if you feel like the show isn't for you its probably not a show you should be watching. Cookie has been the same from day 1 in terms of being sassy and not having much sense of decorum.  

[wayne67]

Everyone feels however they feel, if you feel like the show isn't for you its probably not a show you should be watching. Cookie has been the same from day 1 in terms of being sassy and not having much sense of decorum.  

 

I guess I'm not fond of static characters. Fish out of water stories are only fun for a while, at some point that fish is either going to die or adapt. Cookie is neither suffering any real consequences for bad mouthing employees or toning it down for the press.

 

I found Cookie fun in the premiere because she was brash and fresh out a completely different environment. Now I'm just frustrated that in 6 months of being on the outside, she's showing little to no growth as a person/character. Except for being more tech savvy.

 

As for Hakeem, he was sort of working at Empire too but now he's in a position of power sleeping with employees. I don't really think it's much of a positive character growth but we don't have to agree :p

 

I don't think I'll watch this show any more. I may read the forums see if there's any forward momentum to... whatever the plot is supposed to be.

Edited October 10, 2015 by wayne67

[RCharter]

I guess I'm not fond of static characters. Fish out of water stories are only fun for a while, at some point that fish is either going to die or adapt. Cookie is neither suffering any real consequences for bad mouthing employees or toning it down for the press.

 

I found Cookie fun in the premiere because she was brash and fresh out a completely different environment. Now I'm just frustrated that in 6 months of being on the outside, she's showing little to no growth as a person/character. Except for being more tech savvy.

 

As for Hakeem, he was sort of working at Empire too but now he's in a position of power sleeping with employees. I don't really think it's much of a positive character growth but we don't have to agree :p

 

I don't think I'll watch this show any more. I may read the forums see if there's any forward momentum to... whatever the plot is supposed to be.

 Hakeem has always been in a position of relative power and slept with employees.  You think Tianna would have given him a backwards glance if he wasn't Lucius's son?  But than again, you seem to focus on one specific ten minute act instead of the entire picture that is being painted by the show, which shows that Hakeem has grown a great deal.  At Empire he was only an artist, and now that he is at Dynasty he is working to develop artists as well, which is something he has never done or shown an interest in.  He is happy to sweep the floors with his mother, because he is working to build something instead of just taking.

 

Cookie biting her tongue and suddenly learning decorum or being physically removed from meetings would not at all work for her character or for the show.  She has become closer with two of her estranged sons.  She allowed Andre a role in her company, and begged him to stay.  She let him go when she thought it was best for him.  She is truly happy for a grandchild,even though she hates Rhonda.  She even tried to conspire with Andre to find a way back into Empire which he adores, even though she is at odds with Lucius.  She is trying to build something for her sons and include them in it.  I think its a little silly to expect that suddenly she is going to turn into a stuffy businesswoman, because that simply isn't Cookie.  And to expect that in six months seems like a lot to expect.  She isn't going to turn into Anika, because the show already has an Anika.

 

Yeah -- I can totally understand you not watching the show, it's meant to be enjoyed, and if you're not enjoying it its not worth the effort.  

[Dee]

I don't think Cookie hates Rhonda.

She was skeptical of her daughter-in-law initially, but as long as Rhonda does right by Andre, Cookie doesn't seem to have much of a problem with her, unlike Lucious.

[tomatoflyer]

I think my issue with Empire this season is everyone seems so restrained. At dinner, Cookie should have done more than just that gag with the tablecloth. Jamaal is just a whiny baby, and while I've always found him to be a whiner, he's getting even worse. I want him to do something. It's why I love Hakeem so much this season - he actually does stuff, and sometimes they are good ideas actually. I actually think he could take on Lucious, especially after he took Valentina.

Overall, this episode was kinda meh for me. Felt like filler.

[Eolivet]

"Restraint" is a great way to put it. I do feel like this year, the Lyons are relating to each other on an almost purely business as opposed to a personal level. All their moves are business-related. All they care about is business transactions and business interests and stealing each other's business. That's why the second half-hour of the season premiere was my favorite part of the whole season so far: Lucious killing to protect his family, Jamal throwing everyone out of his father's house because he felt betrayed -- even the board meeting, where it was clear that stealing Mimi or whoever she was seemed to be a personal move on Jamal's part against his family.

 

So far, I haven't seen anything in the Empire vs. Lyon Dynasty feud that we didn't see last year from Creedmoor (actually, Creedmoor was nastier than this). When it's family vs. family, there should be (well, to be entertaining anyway) real backstabbing, fighting dirty, hitting below the belt just because you can. But this is all so...civilized. Stealing artists, leaking albums, buying up radio stations. It's just Corporate Strategy 101.

 

Even the intra-Lyon Dynasty arguments feel very tame. How about Hakeem trying to hire another producer behind Cookie's back? How about Cookie scheduling some interview Hakeem doesn't want to do? How about Andre sabotaging the new company to try to prove himself to Lucious? There's drama to be mined from family working together and I feel like they're not mining it this year the way they did last year.

 

I liked this ep better than the second one, and I'm nowhere near giving up on the show, but it didn't occur to me until I read the posts here that very little of this season has been, to me, about the unique relationships between the Lyons. When you can substitute [shady Businessman A] and [savvy Businesswoman B] into any of the Empire vs. Lyon Dynasty interplay, I feel like that's too impersonal for a show that proclaims "family is everything."

Edited October 11, 2015 by Eolivet

[Vixenstud]

Forgot to mention, cracked up at Jamal's 'Shucky Ducky, Quack-Quack!' comment in the back of the car with Lucious.

 

I haven't seen the comedian Shucky Ducky since the 90's and his line is still going strong?  LOL.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Everyone feels however they feel, if you feel like the show isn't for you its probably not a show you should be watching. Cookie has been the same from day 1 in terms of being sassy and not having much sense of decorum.

I think it's possible for viewers to have different perspectives on fictional characters. I also think it's possible to watch a show which has fundamental elements you don't like, and to express valid criticism of those elements. It's called " hate-watching" and plenty of show forums here on previously.tv seem have room for that experience in addition to the pure fan-worship. I appreciate the diversity of opinions and hope no one feels hesitant to post theirs because they don't fall in with other's perception of the show.

[jhlipton]

 

OMG, Cookie in that preview yelling that if she dies in police custody, she did not commit suicide. Bwah!

I howled at that, she’s so stupid, lol.

 

I didn't think she was being stupid at all. She was referring to Sandra Bland, who local police claimed committed suicide, but was far more likely lynched.

[wanderingstar]

Forgot to mention, cracked up at Jamal's 'Shucky Ducky, Quack-Quack!' comment in the back of the car with Lucious.

 

I liked that, too. It's rare that we see Jamal and Lucious sharing any moments of warmth, so it was a nice little moment.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Gillian Rosh

[Vixenstud]

 

I howled at that, she’s so stupid, lol.

    

I didn't think she was being stupid at all. She was referring to Sandra Bland, who local police claimed committed suicide, but was far more likely lynched.

 

Let me rephrase....she's so silly.  And I was well aware of who she was referring to btw.

[DollEyes]

  For the most part, Empire's on a roll. It still has its flaws, but it mostly gives me everything I want in a primetime soap and more. As always, Lucius and his ego are way out of control, professionally & personally and his family is paying the price. First, Jamal, who's been running the label in Lucius' absence at the expense of his music and being forced to deal with Gather's daughter Freda and her crew, a bunch of ignorant thugs with little education, no home training and given the way they barged into Jamal's office and stormed back out when they found out that Lucius wasn't there, no class. Jamal's dedication to Empire has hurt his music and his relationships with Hakeem, Andre and especially Cookie, as Becky rightly pointed out re the latter. Despite Lucius not being allowed in the building because that's a bail condition, he still managed to make his presence felt, whether it was his deal with Freda, his meetings with the boys, his buying the radio stations, buying Galina's contract and breaking up Mirage Et Trois, hurting Hakeem in the process or his offering to be Jamal's new producer-which, knowing Lucius, will have chains, not just strings attached. ITA with the other posters who said that Lucius' God complex is delusional, at best. As if Lucius' literally & figuratively getting away with murder alone isn't bad enough, his claim that "[he's] better than Berry Gordy & The Supremes" proves just how batshit crazy he is. Anyone with sense-which leaves out Lucius-knows that giving credit where credit is due is a sign of strength, not weakness. Trivializing and/or ignoring the contributions of our predecessors is selfish, stupid and just plain wrong. In other words, if it wasn't for Berry Gordy, there would be no Lucius Lyon.

 

 Another son whom Lucius betrayed is Andre. When Andre told Lucius about Rhonda's pregnancy, instead of congratulating Andre, his first concern was whether the child would be born bipolar, not for Andre's sake, but his own, which was another bitch move on Lucius' part, as was his using Andre's idea to buy the radio stations against Hakeem and making Andre use his impending fatherhood as a bargaining chip, only to use that against him, too. I'm also among those who think that Lucius needs another formidable opponent besides Cookie, preferably male, who can take Lucius down a peg to 10 and show him once and for all that he's not the "god" he thinks he is nor God Himself, for that matter. I still love the show, but seeing Lucius always win no matter how wrong or how guilty he is will hurt the show and bore viewers. Lucius needs to learn the hard way that his actions/crimes in general and those against his family in particular have consequences.

 

  Re Cookie, her best efforts to turn Lyon Dynasty into a serious threat to Empire bit her & Hakeem in their asses, from her strict rehearsals of Mirage Et Trois, her & Hakeem's crashing Lucius' homecoming party or literally dragging the family dinner down to the floor. I'm also among those who think that Cookie & Annika should stop fighting each other and join forces to take down their common enemy, aka Lucius, who has used/abused them for too many years and in too many ways.

 

  Re the Pitbull/Jamal song, I liked it. It was fun and appropriately sexy, unlike DA Reed, who needs to start dressing/acting like a lawyer or get back on the pole.

Edited October 12, 2015 by DollEyes

[Dee]

Cookie's plaintive response to Andre about trying to build Lyon Dynasty into a venture worthy of leaving to her sons some day, as he prattled on about rejoining Empire broke my heart.

 

It's easy for fans and critics to focus largely on Cookie's scene stealing shenanigans & hilarious zingers but it's those small, almost throwaway, character driven moments that exemplifies just how good an actress Taraji really is.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Dee

[Milz]

Cookie did get a piece of Empire, a huge salary and a big title and position in the company upon her release.  However that was not enough for her she wanted it all and now she has, the start up.

She only got that after she threatened to go public with how Lucious got the money and only after she signed a non-disclosure contract that she would not go public with that information. It wasn't like Lucious gave it to her willingly.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

I adore Taraji and it's great she got this gig, after the shitty treatment from POI.

But this show is starting to wear thin for me.

Edited October 16, 2015 by MrsRafaelBarba

[Former Nun]

Okay, I give.  I GIVE!   I've given up on the show.  There are too many musical numbers for me and I found myself fast-forwarding through much of it.  Too much work; I give up.  I'll miss you SO MUCH Taraji!    I gave up on Crazy Ex-Girlfriend for the same reason.  I really like music...but not this way.

[Guest]

That's kind of hilarious. I thought I put too much thought into this show but I guess it's like those people who evaluate how much money Iron Man's chamber of armors would be worth on the open market.

When a tv show is portraying what you do for a living, it's normal to evaluate how realistically they're doing it.  If the writers are pulling stuff out of their asses, viewers who are curious about it should know.   

 

I see the point about last season vs. this season.  Last season Lucius was dying and the sense was "where are they going with this King Lear like story?"   Now the answer is "1982 and Dynasty", which is infinitely less interesting and less creative.  

[wayne67]

When a tv show is portraying what you do for a living, it's normal to evaluate how realistically they're doing it.  If the writers are pulling stuff out of their asses, viewers who are curious about it should know.   

 

I see the point about last season vs. this season.  Last season Lucius was dying and the sense was "where are they going with this King Lear like story?"   Now the answer is "1982 and Dynasty", which is infinitely less interesting and less creative.  

 

Yeah I always find that people who are actual lawyers or cops or doctors have such amusing things to say about the media's portrayal of their jobs on the forums.

 

It's weird but last season it felt like the family drama was in the front seat and the business was in the back seat. Now it seems like it's all about the business and the family is kind of coming in second or third. I don't know but poorly thought out and unrealistic take over plots do very little for me. Haven't watched the next episode and I haven't looked at the forum thread for the episode either. It's gone from must watch tv to meh, maybe I'll watch it later tv for me. I haven't seen Dynasty or 1982. I live in Australia so... not sure if I can even watch those shows. Were either of those any good ?

[Guest]

I meant Empire's gone to the year 1982 with the then-hit show Dynasty, which was a prime-time soap about very rich people being very nasty to each other.  I wouldn't bother watching it.  It's a 30 year old formula that wasn't considered terrific even then.  

[aradia22]

"I'm not talking to you, Guadalupe. You need to find your drawers." was hilarious. I love Cookie.

 

Cookie pulling the tablecloth was another great moment.

 

I'm a little confused. I feel like we're going in circles on who is the most "street" and who has something to prove and who Luscious likes the most. It doesn't even feel like erratic behavior from Luscious. It feels like bad writing.

 

I like the makeover they gave Hakeem's friend and the way she's been featured more so far this season.

 

I'm sorry but I don't think I'm ever going to like a Luscious or Hakeem track. They never sound like hits. They always sound like B-sides. In a bad way, they sound like songs someone wrote for a TV show. I did love the winks Hakeem and Jamal exchanged.

 

Poor Andre.

 

Luscious was so sleazy with Ms. Ford.

 

LOL, I want more of Ms. Cookie's dance class.

[aradia22]

 

Lucious really should tell Andre that bi-polar disorder runs in the family, but he won't because he is THE WORST.

Where are they going with that? Is he scared of mental illness but still willing to risk it (not allow Andre and his wife to make an informed decision) so he can have a grandchild... even though he doesn't like the fact that Andre married a Caucasian woman/that he has a mental illness so I don't know why he'd want them to have a child anyway... this show is confusing.