S09.E02: The Separation Oscillation

[Passing Strange]

I agree that the Howard/Raj conversation was inappropriate. In order for it to be sexual harassment, though, someone would need to overhear, be bothered by it to the extent that it affected her work and, for a hostile work environment, the behavior would need to be ongoing. Still pretty Cringeworthy, but not actionable.

[Bronzedog]

Didn't Kripke babysit for the HR lady's kids? She liked him so maybe he's just selectively horrible.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Didn't Kripke babysit for the HR lady's kids? She liked him so maybe he's just selectively horrible.

Kripke isn't horrible on a personal level. He was happy to go rock-climbing with Sheldon, and was part of his new dinner group (along with Zach and Stuart) when the rest of the gang started meeting at Raj's instead. He's just very insulting about what he views as professional incompetence.

[Ouisch]

I thought Stuart and Amy made a cute couple on that episode where he took her out for a pumpkin latte and later to a movie. But if they did get together, eventually they'd run out of things to talk about (much like Penny and Leonard....eventually you have to get out of bed). What if Amy and Raj got together? He'd probably be a very nice boyfriend if he wouldn't go all creepy/possessive on the first date ("How many children would you like to have?"). He's a great cook, he's sensitive, he's a scientist, and he's not at all adverse to physical affection.

[LADreamr]

Raj and Amy could be interesting. I think Sheldon's head would explode, but I'd like to see what they could do with that pairing.

[theatremouse]

Look, I'm 100% against discrimination and truly understand that hostile work environments can exist.  But, three friends talking just amongst themselves, where no one apparently overheard, does not create a hostile work enviornment in and of itself.  If they were heard, sure.  If they acted on it, fire their asses.  But if they were just talking amongst themselves, well that happens everywhere and is not confined to just men gossiping.

I'd argue, legally speaking, Howard and Raj were harassing Leonard. Don't think it veers into "hostile work environment" territory, but certainly sexual harrassment. I'm not saying Leonard would ever report them for it or feel the need to, but the scene as played constitutes that. It doesn't matter if the woman in question or anyone else heard. "Just men gossiping" can easily be sexual harassment if one of the men involved is made uncomfortable by it.

It's a sad thing about this episode when what I enjoyed most was seeing Bernadette slicing those brownies. Man, made me want to make brownies.

I also love Mayim Bialick. So much. On this show, and really any show that's been on as long as this one has, the writing can become extra sitcommy which makes even good actors get sitcommy. Wink-winky, hang a lantern on it, make their lines sound even more like lines than they already do. Cuoco and Galecki definitely suffer from this. But Mayim Bialick plays things so straight. She seems so focused on making the moments real. Watching her in last night's episode contrast to the rest of the cast, for me, she made them look really bad. She didn't even have that much to do. Show up and sound upset! But she was so much more in the moment. So much more believable. She felt like a real person, not a sitcom character.

[photo fox]

The discussion about the definition of sexual harassment is getting a little circular, so let's move on. Thanks!

[hnygrl]

 

It would serve Sheldon right if a great guy saw the 'diss Amy' show and contacts her for a date

That's kinda my fantasy lately, that Amy will meet the Anti-Sheldon, a man who appreciates her weirdness and treats her like a princess. In front of Sheldon. Someone Sheldon can't help but like and admire. And it causes Sheldon to (finally) wake up, grow up, and say the things to Amy that she needs to hear.

But we all know what's really gonna happen don't we? Amy will calll Sheldon's mama and Mama Cooper will spill the beans about the engagement ring.

 

All is forgiven. Gag me.

 

God I hope the writers don't go there.I'm kinda loving Angry Amy, and unless the Hofstaeders(sp?) get their acts together and stop being so damned insecure, they won't make it. Leonard will have a cow every time Penny has to go out of town for work and Penny will have a cow every time an expedition comes up that Leonard just can't pass up.

 

I can see it all now...

 

Man this season's gonna suck...

[BookWitch]

When I see how Sheldon is acting I remember his statement from last season "the baby always wins". He doesn't really want Amy back as much as he can prove he can get her back and everything stays exactly the same. Problem is, Amy is not the same and he doesn't like that. So the baby is going to throw a fit until everyone gives in to him. Blech.

[Winston Wolfe]

theatermouse:

 

But Mayim Bialick plays things so straight. She seems so focused on making the moments real.

Mayim is this show's un-sung MVP.  Just her facial expressions and reaction shots alone are gold.  Every year I hope she gets a well-deserved Emmy and get disappointed every damn time.

 

If anyone's interested I posted some breaking news on Kaley's divorce over on the Penny thread.

[mstar1125]

On a different note regarding the exchange in the cafeteria: although I find bathroom humor and sexual innuendo to be funny (at least in small doses), I feel like the jokes that used to make this show funny were much more high-brow/intellectual/scientific. That's what made the show stand out to me, because every show does the cafeteria exchange type of humor. I suppose they are trying to make the show accessible to a broad audience, but in doing so, I think they've isolated a lot of their original fans who came for the science jokes. 

[needschocolate]

I thought Stuart and Amy made a cute couple on that episode where he took her out for a pumpkin latte and later to a movie. But if they did get together, eventually they'd run out of things to talk about (much like Penny and Leonard....eventually you have to get out of bed). What if Amy and Raj got together? He'd probably be a very nice boyfriend if he wouldn't go all creepy/possessive on the first date ("How many children would you like to have?"). He's a great cook, he's sensitive, he's a scientist, and he's not at all adverse to physical affection.

 

Stuart and Amy, Raj and Amy, Professor Proton and Amy, almost anybody and Amy would be better than Sheldon and Amy, In my opinion.   

[MissLucas]

Quite frankly the best pairing this show ever did for Amy was Howard. Maybe it was just the actors hitting it off but their bonding over Neil Diamond is one of my all time favorite scenes of the show. Obviously that's not an option for Amy and neither is any of the other guys. They're just bait to get Sheldon jealous but sooner or later she and Sheldon will get back together. It remains to be seen how the writer handle their reconciliation. I'm not sure I'd like to see more of angry or jealous Sheldon.

[NutmegsDad]

As much as they've been slowburning Leonard/Penny to marriage (and need to continue for a few more years), I did like that they has *some* semblance of reasoning behind the angst with Leonard's making out with Mandy. Penny used to be that girl, and Leonard could never get a Penny.

 

The whole "OMGIKNEWANDISAIDNOTHING" is bad soap opera which knowing and not telling is the Evilest Evil That Ever Eviled.

 

Sheldon's actions against Amy are veering into Lifetime Movie Male Villian territory, Aspergers, or not.

[Homily]

Personally I didn't find Sheldon nearly as bad as I expected him to be based on what people here were saying.  He's always been, as Leonard put it "one lab accident away from being a super villain" if he can turn on Penny for touching food on his plate it's not going to surprise me at all that he can behave the way he has by Amy ending their relationship.

[theatremouse]

The whole "OMGIKNEWANDISAIDNOTHING" is bad soap opera which knowing and not telling is the Evilest Evil That Ever Eviled.

The implication of evil-factor isn't even what annoyed me most. It makes absolutely no sense for Bernadette to have successfully, quietly, not seemed to have known and then suddenly conspicuously, children's cartoonily not seem to be able to keep to herself that she knew before. I have trouble with the cognitive dissonance of the Bernadette who says clunkers like "it's so new and I'm still digesting it" or whatever overly emphatic thing she said, and the mean-work Bernadette who manipulates people with ease to get what she wants. Girl knows how to lie. We know this. She doesn't want to spill that she knew (even if she did feel guilty) she should totally be able to not even blink about it. Speaking of supervillains, I'd put my money on Bernadette before Sheldon for that territory.

[dungeonwriter]

 

Sheldon's actions against Amy are veering into Lifetime Movie Male Villian territory, Aspergers, or not.

If it wasn't a comedy and we didn't "know" Sheldon was harmless, we'd be seeing a woman try to end a relationship and the jealous ex who won't let her go. 

 

The ex repeatedly violates her wishes to be left alone, stalks her, insults her on his podcast and tries to browbeat her into coming back. 

 

Yeah....not cool, Sheldon. 

 

And whats' worse, I understand that Sheldon wants his companion back, but Amy isn't a toy. She can't spend the rest of her life, waiting for him to put her first. She wants things to change, he wants her to shut up and do what he wants. 

[MissLucas]

Speaking of supervillains, I'd put my money on Bernadette before Sheldon for that territory.

He! I recently wondered who in this group I definitely would not want to piss off and came to the same conclusion. Bernadette's the one you have to be afraid of. With regards to Bernadette and lying - the cognitive dissonance has tradition, she also freaked out when Amy and Penny wanted her to act as 'spy' during the dinner with Prya and Leonard.

 

 

And whats' worse, I understand that Sheldon wants his companion back, but Amy isn't a toy. She can't spend the rest of her life, waiting for him to put her first. She wants things to change, he wants her to shut up and do what he wants.

He basically wants her to turn into Leonard. You know the guy who got married and still lives with Sheldon.

[theatremouse]

With regards to Bernadette and lying - the cognitive dissonance has tradition, she also freaked out when Amy and Penny wanted her to act as 'spy' during the dinner with Prya and Leonard.

Good point! I'd forgotten about that. Although I also feel like that scene happened before they established the "Bernadette is scary" storyline. So I guess maybe my feelings should have been flipped. Although they still aren't...

[LADreamr]

With regards to Bernadette and lying - the cognitive dissonance has tradition, she also freaked out when Amy and Penny wanted her to act as 'spy' during the dinner with Prya and Leonard.

Maybe it's not cognitive dissonance so much as that she's good at it when it serves her, and bad at it when it's for someone else.

[kat165]

What really bothers me is that if/when Amy & Sheldon get back together it will probably involve the ring which makes no sense. Like when Bernie was thinking of breaking up with Howard a few seasons ago - and we weren't told why. Then he proposed and she didn't even let him finish asking & she said yes. So why was she going to break up with? A ring solves it all? They weren't even together long enough for her to get antsy about a ring and where is this relationship going?

 

I think Sheldon and Amy getting back together will make about as much sense as that did.

[dungeonwriter]

There's been enormous contradiction. 

 

Amy went from being happily asexual and happily independent from Sheldon to a sad sack who begs for sex. 

 

Bernedette went from a blank slate "I don't get it," who can't lie and is pretty religious, 't being an overbearing, borderline super-villian with a sharp sense of humor.  

 

We used to have Sheldon who loaned money freely and saved the lives of his roommates by destroying the elevator, who genuinely was bewildered by social norms, but never wanted to hurt anyone. Now we have evil Sheldon who is aware he's cruel, but doesn't want to stop. 

 

Yes, people evolve but this really felt like the characters have personalities which shift wildly for the plot. Like Howard, who grew up because he realized he needed to do it to achieve his dreams. 

 

Also, is Raj slowly being written out? I know balancing 7 characters is a lot, but it feels that way.  

[MissLucas]

There's been enormous contradiction. 

 

Amy went from being happily asexual and happily independent from Sheldon to a sad sack who begs for sex. 

 

Bernedette went from a blank slate "I don't get it," who can't lie and is pretty religious, 't being an overbearing, borderline super-villian with a sharp sense of humor.  

 

We used to have Sheldon who loaned money freely and saved the lives of his roommates by destroying the elevator, who genuinely was bewildered by social norms, but never wanted to hurt anyone. Now we have evil Sheldon who is aware he's cruel, but doesn't want to stop. 

 

I'm willing to do some handwaving when it comes to Bernadette and Amy - they were introduced late into the show as love interests for two of the main characters but with little consistent characterization beyond that (especially true for Bernadette I thought). It took the writers and the actresses a bit of time to get a good grasp on those parts; figuring out what was working and what not.

 

I love the mad scientist vibe they gave Bernadette because it's something that defines her outside her relationship with Howard. Not so keen on the whole 'Howard married his mother 2.0' thing but it looks as if they toned that down a bit.

 

Amy was introduced as a female version of Sheldon but with more self-awareness. I enjoyed watching her embrace all those aspects of a social life she had missed out before. But her initial role - girlfriend to Sheldon - was never as much fun to watch, quite the contrary.

 

Sheldon on the other hand has - as someone in the character thread pointed out - regressed though I think the writers want to sell that as character development. Season one Sheldon would have shrugged off the break-up, putting the relationship in a file titled 'social experiments gone wrong' and moved on. But now he's got all those feels he can't handle and so he's lashing out. And you have to wonder if season one Sheldon was not happier than current Sheldon and that's a damn depressing thought.

Edited October 4, 2015 by MissLucas

[dungeonwriter]

 But now he's got all those feels he can't handle and so he's lashing out. And you have to wonder if season one Sheldon was not happier than current Sheldon and that's a damn depressing thought.

 

That's a terribly sad thought that actually makes the show depressing. 

[shapeshifter]

Mayim is this show's un-sung MVP.  Just her facial expressions and reaction shots alone are gold.  Every year I hope she gets a well-deserved Emmy and get disappointed every damn time.

I agree, but I also think Simon Helberg is even more worthy and even more ignored. He's probably got the widest range of expression among the whole ensemble.

[KAOS Agent]

If you're still looking for Penny's blue shirt, you can find it here. 

 

This show has another three seasons to go, right? I can't imagine what they're going to do to make it interesting again. All I can say is please dear God keep them away from pregnancy and babies. 

[shapeshifter]

If you're still looking for Penny's blue shirt, you can find it here

Thanks, KAOS Agent, but *le grande sigh*

At $108 it's too rich for my blood, even if it should go on sale half off at Nordstrom Rack. Maybe I'll find something similar at Target.

[okerry]

QUOTE: Still trying to figure out the deal between Sheldon and his mom.  Maybe she showed him too much affection and caused that part of his psyche to shut down?

 

No, I think Mary Cooper was the only reason Sheldon is even as functional as he is. She loved him unconditionally, but still disciplined him when she could. I think it was Sheldon's going off to college at something like 11 years old, and therefore to be surrounded by horny adolescents, that caused him to become so sexually repressed. I'm convinced that Sheldon is not asexual. He's just severely repressed. There's a difference.

Also, Amy and Kripke might make a sweet couple. He can be a horrid person, but he can at least act charming. 

 

Pairing them would be hilarious, but horrible. Kripke is really a terrible person and would get Amy into bed if he could, but would have no interest in her after that. Don't want to see that happen to Amy. If they're really going to go that route and let Amy have a one-night stand, Zack would be far better than Kripke. Zack is sweet and Amy's already attracted.

 

As an aside, I could swear I saw the actor who plays Zack on one of those Progressive commercials with Flo. He was bearded and sitting the counter of a diner. Put him back on BBT! I like Zack.

[okerry]

That's a terribly sad thought that actually makes the show depressing. 

Yeah, but I don't see it that way. I'm seeing Sheldon finally doing the work that will make him a more complete and, therefore, happier human being. Kind of like watching a guy work out in the gym. Looks painful at the time, but the results are worth it. :) 

[stealinghome]

Amy was introduced as a female version of Sheldon but with more self-awareness. I enjoyed watching her embrace all those aspects of a social life she had missed out before. But her initial role - girlfriend to Sheldon - was never as much fun to watch, quite the contrary.

Yeah, the writers are really in a "damned if they do, damned if they don't" situation with Amy at this point. On the one hand, Amy's character growth over the past several seasons has been really well done--probably the best long-running plotline this show has done in that time--and it's made Amy as a dramatic character so, so much more entertaining and rewarding. And it's let us see some truly excellent performances from Mayim Bialik. On the other hand, it's precisely that excellent character growth that really makes Amy being Sheldon's girlfriend make no sense for either character anymore, and it's becoming increasingly obvious that the show is trying to fit a round peg into a square hole where they're concerned. It worked, and it was hella funny, when Amy was a female version of Sheldon. Not so much now. The first 2 episodes of this season alone show how far Amy has outgrown Sheldon and how much better she deserves than him. And Sheldon as a character is done no favors either in that comparison, because he just looks increasingly icky in how he treats her.

 

If the writers had any balls at all, they'd leave Sheldon and Amy broken up for the rest of the series, and then make the series finale open-ended enough that you can believe they got back together if you want to, but can believe they stayed apart if you want to. (Sort of like Robin and Barney in HIMYM's deleted alternate ending.) But these writers just don't have the courage anymore.

[pamme64]

Please, when is the show going to be funny again? The only time it rose to the occasion was Raj and Howard's lunchtime contest of jokes about dating the Other Woman. The Penny/Leonard pain continued to be a real downer, and Sheldon's self-important interference was so predictable. The level of distrust between Penny and Leonard shows their shallow characters and lack of maturity. Neither one of these people has any business getting married.

 

Piling on Amy's pain about Sheldon's immaturity served to deepen and reinforce the unpleasant atmosphere and themes of the show. Dissing Amy on the Internet was a terrible low for Sheldon's boyish behavior. I thought she would call his mother to report him.

 

Seems to me that the show is letting Kaley Cuoco's personal relationship (divorcing) woes pervade the set and suffocate any clever wit that might pop up in the dialogue.

 

Dull, dull, dull.

When this was being filmed she was supposedly still happily married.  Divorce was after this was shot.  No?

[jenh526]

If you're still looking for Penny's blue shirt, you can find it here. 

 

This is great! I've always liked Penny's tops on the show. Sad to see I can't afford any of them though. :( Maybe I should get a job at the Cheesecake Factory...

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Sad to see I can't afford any of them though. :( Maybe I should get a job at the Cheesecake Factory...

Or, at least a restaurant like hers, that has rich and famous people coming in.

[The Kings Foot]

There's been enormous contradiction. 

 

Amy went from being happily asexual and happily independent from Sheldon to a sad sack who begs for sex. 

 

 

Who says she was happy ? On Sheldon and Amy's first official date (the one with Penny chaperoning)  doesnt Amy says she used brain electro stimulation to give herself 150+ orgasms ?  That doesnt sound like someone who is asexual.

[ProfCrash]

Amy has been pushing to kiss or have sex for a long time.

[nygma619]

I hate the perpetual 'Leonard is a good guy' this show keeps pushing. He is not. As in the above quote, all he had positive to say about Penny is that she is beautiful. No, she is kind, funny, sweet, caring, nice, etc. No way would he say she is intelligent, even though she has been shown to be smart in her own way. Nope, it is just that she is beautiful. That is all he likes about her; that she is hot and she is willing to be with him (and impress others in turn), which he doesn't really believe. He mostly tolerates her and, if not for her beauty, he would not be interested.

From the Spaghetti Catalyst:

"Yes, you will, and she’ll be beautiful, and kind and sexy and funny and everything you ever wanted in a woman."

He's referring to Penny in the above quote, but her looks aren't the only things he brings up.

Also the episode where Leonard's mother debuts & the 100th episode make it clear that Leonard's infatuation with Penny has ALOT to do with how she is the antithesis to his mother, and the kind of unconditional intimacy he didn't get from her.

From the first episode on, his m.o. has been to be "nice" to Penny so that she would have sex with him. Any sweet gestures emanating from him, are simply to win Penny's favor and are not genuine.

This interpretation flies in the face of the shows sixth episode where Penny is drunk and feeling lonely and Leonard does NOT take advantage of Penny's emotional state in that situation. If sex is ALL he wanted from Penny, why turn down that situation right then and there? The line "Our babies will be smart and beautiful." indicated that he wanted more than sex from her.

Leonard enjoyed and reveled in Alex's interest in him. He also had no trouble rubbing it in to Penny.

Except he never rubbed it in her face.

Edited March 22, 2016 by nygma619

[nygma619]

There's been enormous contradiction. 

 

Amy went from being happily asexual and happily independent from Sheldon to a sad sack who begs for sex. 

 

Bernedette went from a blank slate "I don't get it," who can't lie and is pretty religious, 't being an overbearing, borderline super-villian with a sharp sense of humor.  

I found a quote from someone on AVClub that explains Bernadette and Amy's characters:

 

"Bernadette's was retconned in season 4, by a line where Bernadette says she played naive (for the most part) to Howard to protect his manhood because she's smarter than him. After this is mentioned in her next appearance Howard is threatened by Bernadette's tall ex. Which I presume is when she stopped playing as naive, after their relationship survived that. Later on, she starts showing him her mean streak, that gave us Bernadette as we know her today.

It's a flimsy retcon I'll admit, but I can let it slide for the most part, because up until that episode revelation, Bernadette didn't share screen time with mostly anyone except Howard.

But Amy....

Most of her outlook was for the most part manufactured sabotage of herself that came from her giving up on having friends (or anything beyond that). At least when we first met her.

Once she became BESTIES with Penny (who she perceives as a popular girl) you can see her trying to be clingy and sometimes pushing the boundaries on what she should be doing as a friend towards her. Once her friendship kept growing, she kept opening up, and opened up her mind to more possibilities. The "robotic monotone" in her voice stayed until about the third episode in season 5, then she started talking more normally and expressing more emotions, instead of keeping her emotions bottled up. I think they handled her transition alot better from who she was then to who she is now.

Now was that the plan for her to be like that in the long run when she first started making more appearances in season 4? I doubt it, but sometimes you figure out different things about the character(s) when you write them or have them say other things or interact with different characters."

[nygma619]

As I suspected, it turned out that not only that marriage counselling is included as benefit, Caltech has its own in-house Consultation Center available for free for staff and their families. I do believe similar benefit is available for staff of other major universities as well.

 

Therefore, the premise of the plot that Leonard does not have money to afford counselling is an evidence of our good writers do not do their research.

 

That sounds like the services they offer relate MORE to employee's troubles AS THEY RELATE TO the workplace.

 

Even if it was a valuable resource, who says Leonard knows this resource would be available to him?  There were things at my work that were available to me that I didn't know about.  Two years ago I assumed I only was allowed 80 vacation hours a year, until my boss came up and asked why I hadn't used them all up, turns out no one told me about getting more vacation hours after five years of employment.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Even if it was a valuable resource, who says Leonard knows this resource would be available to him?

Or, he may not trust the assurance of confidentiality. Many universities will just pick up the tab for going to a local facility with no association to the university.

[nygma619]

First, Penny didn't grind his heart into little pieces by breaking up with the wonderful Leonard.  Second, this description, applied to Penny, is at best a backhand compliment (really an insult), and actually the usual Leonard passive aggressive whiny bs.   

 

Agree to disagree, Leonard was clearly heartbroken during the rest of the season;  just because he was able to function and mend his heart back together doesn't mean he wasn't.

 

So what if it was a backhanded compliment or if he was Passive aggressive in his description (which included kind and funny).  That's not proof that he didn't mean what he said when he claimed Penny was all those things he described.

 

 

 

He is the smart and she is the beautiful in that combination.  As always, Penny is only seen as beautiful in his mind.

Leonard has always wanted more than just sex and wanted an ongoing relationship.  My argument has never been that he just wants sex from her, but that he only likes her for her looks and just tolerates the rest of her and doesn't like the rest of her personality, characteristics, intelligence

 

Except anytime other things that Leonard likes about Penny besides her looks are mentioned, you move the goalposts in terms of why you think those things are not valid.  If you have to move the goalposts to accommodate your interpretation, then that interpretation was weak to begin with.

 

 

My original quote never even mentioned sex.

 

Um, you clearly did mention sex in your first quote:

 

 

 

From the first episode on, his m.o. has been to be "nice" to Penny so that she would have sex with him.  Any sweet gestures emanating from him, are simply to win Penny's favor and are not genuine.

 

That's YOU mentioning sex as it pertains to their relationship in your first quote.

 

Leonard certainly reveled in Alex's attention and enjoyed flaunting to Penny at the table

 

Huh?  Penny was never even at the table when he was gloating to his friends.

 

 

 

but he enjoyed the attention and enjoyed Penny being jealous of the attention

 

He enjoyed learning that Penny is generally insecure about losing him for the same reasons he is.  In the tag of the episode, he wanted her to stop worrying about what was happening with that.

 

Every male-female relationship Leonard has or will ever have should be an antithesis of his relationship with his mother.  Even Priya, who was controlling, was loving and caring and did not emasculate Leonard like his mother.  Nobody treats him like his mother.

 

Should be, but isn't.  Threatening to end their relationship if he didn't sign Sheldon's contract in season 4, RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM is her emasculating him, also her being inconsiderate of him when she went back to India AND when she slept with her ex thinking it wasn't a big deal is being inconsiderate of his feelings.  JUST LIKE HIS MOTHER.

 

Penny is further removed than those other women BECAUSE she's not as educated/book smart as they are.  She relies more on being intuitive, than absolute logic.

 

He only tolerates Penny for her looks, even if there are a few throwaway lines here and there that suggest he thinks more about Penny (as there should be because Penny does have qualities besides looks, even Sheldon realizes this) then just that she is beautiful

 

What you call throwaway lines (really calling The Maternal Congruence a throwaway line is invalid, since a good chunk of that episode was devoted to making it clear that Leonard and Penny see in eachother the exact opposite of the specific parents who left them scarred) I call just as valid in terms of evidence.  Just because they haven't beat the audience over the head with Leonard liking Penny's other qualities DOES NOT mean it is less valid.

Edited March 22, 2016 by nygma619

[CherryAmes]

A recent episode I saw where Leonard was intolerant of Penny's belief in psychics was a good example of Leonard not putting up with anything just so he could get sex**.  He clearly gave some serious thought to whether he could continue a relationship with Penny given how he feels about psychics and other forms of woo woo "science".  I didn't feel that he put aside those differences so he could continue getting sex but because he realized he loved Penny and he would have to accept that there were things about her that weren't perfect (in his eyes).  Very mature approach IMO.  It's one reason I think the Penny - Leonard relationship is a good one, they've both accepted negatives about the other just as most real couples do and I like that about them.

 

**Although I think this is something every guy on the show with the exception of Sheldon has done, some of them a lot more than once!

Edited March 22, 2016 by CherryAmes

[nygma619]

A recent episode I saw where Leonard was intolerant of Penny's belief in psychics was a good example of Leonard not putting up with anything just so he could get sex**.  He clearly gave some serious thought to whether he could continue a relationship with Penny given how he feels about psychics and other forms of woo woo "science".  I didn't feel that he put aside those differences so he could continue getting sex but because he realized he loved Penny and he would have to accept that there were things about her that weren't perfect (in his eyes).  Very mature approach IMO.  It's one reason I think the Penny - Leonard relationship is a good one, they've both accepted negatives about the other just as most real couples do and I like that about them.

 

**Although I think this is something every guy on the show with the exception of Sheldon has done, some of them a lot more than once!

 

Another example, even though I don't like The Guitarist Amplification, that episode does have a redeeming grace in showing Leonard NOT backing down from his position in Penny being inconsiderate by letting an ex sleep on her couch for weeks.  Even though she was mad at him, he didn't just give in to her just so she wouldn't be mad at him, quite the opposite resulted from that in Penny compromising.

[MaryMitch]

I like what Stuart said about Leonard and Penny - paraphrasing here: She loosens him up and he makes her think more deeply about issues. I think they're a cute couple that really care about each other. Who cares if initially it was Penny's looks that attracted Leonard?

[SmithW6079]

I like what Stuart said about Leonard and Penny - paraphrasing here: She loosens him up and he makes her think more deeply about issues. I think they're a cute couple that really care about each other. Who cares if initially it was Penny's looks that attracted Leonard?

And for most people, physical attraction is the start of their relationships.