NFL Thread

[ganesh]

The 14th amendment deals with due process and legal protections, essentially. Also there's content about not being punished for something you've already been punished for; i.e., the Pats cheat all the time so Brady deserves what he gets

 

Thank you for telling me that the NFL is not part of the federal government. Is the federal government the only entity in this country that has to abide by constitutional principles like due process and legal protections? Private businesses have to adhere to them because laws are based on these principles. 

 

I'm not saying that Brady should sue on the constitutionality of the CBA. Due process wasn't followed and the punishment resulting was not legally based on this. 

 

The constitution provides the basis for the rule of law, was my point. I mean, give me a break, it's not like I'm out on some radical limb here. The article itself was basically about due process and how the Wells investigation failed that. It's not that much of a stretch. 

 

The commissioner has had a clear history of arbitrarily handing out penalties. Having to answer to this or explain it isn't unreasonable. 

Edited July 31, 2015 by ganesh

[xaxat]

People enter into agreements that limit their legal rights all the time. And it's legal in most cases. 

 

For example, all of us probably have software installed on our computers that, as a part of the terms of use, eliminates the customer's ability to sue the software vendor. And in many cases the terms of use dictate that a mediator appointed by the vendor resolve any disputes.

 

Now there is the question of whether the commissioner overstepped his bounds relative to the CBA. (An issue players have consistently one on.) But I'm not sure the larger issue of due process plays a legal role in this case.

Edited July 31, 2015 by xaxat

[Constantinople]

Okay, there may be due process issues here regarding private employment and arbitration, but I guarantee you that there are not Constitutional issues here.  The Constitution is about the relationship between the federal government and states and individuals.

I agree.  There are the due process clauses of the 5th and 14th amendments, which don't apply here.  Then there's the "due process" someone is entitled to under a CBA, that is, whether the person imposing discipline under the CBA acted arbitrarily or outside the scope of his authority under the CBA.  That's my understanding about what the issue is (not that I've been following that closely).

 

It does seem a little odd that not turning over the phone and later destroying it is now a big deal, when apparently it wasn't an issue before, but then I'm relying on the Sally Jenkins article to which ebk57 linked.  If you say, it's OK if you don't do X, but then later punish someone or uphold a punishment for not doing X, it looks a little odd.  Especially when the original punishment was based on scientific conclusions brought to us by the smoking doesn't cause cancer crowd.  And it doesn't help that in the legal dispute over Ray Rice, it seemed as if the judge in that case implicitly called Goodell a liar (once again, relying on the Sally Jenkins article).

 

Anyway, the Patriots haters shouldn't sweat it.  The case is being held in New York, so the judge is likely a Jets or Giants fan.

 

Heads up:   the NFL is not part of the federal government.

Try telling the NFL that.

 

Or perhaps the way to phrase it is to say try telling the NFL that the federal government isn't part of them.

[pennben]

 

The 14th amendment deals with due process and legal protections, essentially. Also there's content about not being punished for something you've already been punished for; i.e., the Pats cheat all the time so Brady deserves what he gets

 

Again, that relates to the relationship between the federal government, the states and individuals.  This is simply not a Constitutional issue.  Arguing that it is such by Pat's fans makes others skeptical of very valid legal arguments that may otherwise apply, in my opinion.

Edited July 31, 2015 by pennben

[ganesh]

I'd argue the same if it were any top tier player so theres no reason to qualify it as a Pats fan. What isn't helping Brady is the history of cheating by the Pats, and I'm saying if that failed into this suspension, then it's a violation of due process. So I'd like to see this in court and rule on what actually due process is. I think the penalty was made up after the violation which is illegal. And most people here have pointed out the report was full of holes in terms of Brady. I don't see why the fine and draft picks weren't enough. This would set a bad precedent imo.

I actually think this is a big issue in terms of labor relations.

If you say, it's OK if you don't do X, but then later punish someone or uphold a punishment for not doing X, it looks a little odd.

It's things like this that I mean about due process.

[Rick Kitchen]

Patriots release emails between them and the league which seem to indicate that the league knew that information that was leaked to the press was untrue.

[xaxat]

Goodell's fighting a two front war (Kraft and the NFLPA). Not a good place to be.

 

I wonder what his support is now among the owners. Even Jerry Jones has to recognize how badly he screwed this up.

[AimingforYoko]

 

I wonder what his support is now among the owners. Even Jerry Jones has to recognize how badly he screwed this up.

Do they like Kraft? I thought there was a sizable number of owners who wanted Goodell to stick it to the Patriots.

[bosawks]

Those owners should realize if he'll stick it to Kraft he'll stick it to them.

I want Godell gone before he sticks it to the Eagles.

He's arbitrary and capricious and no team is safe. I don't want my team subject the same body that "proved" second hand smoke doesn't cause cancer.

The enemy of my enemy is not my friend.

[ganesh]

Well put. I don't know if the other owners realize that this could set a precedent. You might not have a qb like Brady, but you don't want your starting qb to be subject to arbitrary penalties and suspensions regardless. Or your star player. The Texans would be screaming bloody murder of this was Watt.

[xaxat]

The Steelers' players tried to warn everybody. . . 

 

In summer 2011, when there was a rush to approve the newly negotiated collective bargaining agreement during training camps so the preseason games could take place, Steelers players took a stand.

The Steelers were the only one of the 32 teams to vote against the CBA. They felt the new deal continued to give NFL commissioner Roger Goodell too much leeway as judge, jury and executioner over the player conduct policy.

The Steelers had experienced that unchecked power when Goodell unilaterally suspended Ben Roethlisberger for four games to start the 2010 season, even though he was never charged with a crime. Also fresh in their minds were the $150,000 in fines the NFL issued to linebacker James Harrison in 2010, although those were for actions on the field, not off.

The Patriots and Brady believe Goodell should not have had the power to both suspend the quarterback and to hear and deny his appeal. But under the 2011 CBA, he does.

[FuriousStyles]

^^^^I was just about to say, the other owners arent concerned about a precedent being set or Goddell sticking it to them, because some of them have ALREADY been on the receiving end of it.

I think Goddell has the backing of a fair number of owners, if not a full majority because they probably cant stand the Pats either, and would like them to pay for their blatant cheating.

[DrSpaceman]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2015/07/30/condensing-six-months-of-the-deflategate-tom-brady-nfl-circus-into-five-essential-questions-and-25-links/

 

 

Pretty fair assessment of the whole thing, condensed.  Will just post this rather than repeat myself. 

 

Of note is the fact that the CBA explicitly states players must cooperate fully with an investigation.  When its made clear in the wells report that the NFL was not asking for phyiscal possession of his phone, but only any texts pertaining to the case, they were going to allow Brady and his lawyers to do that on their own,basically trusting them to do so and he still not only turned them down but also DESTROYED that phone, and never told them he did so it appears until after the investigation so that fact does not appear in the report, I don't know how you can argue he was fully cooperating with the investigation. 

 

I view what the NFL requested from his phone as reasonable and not intrusive in any way on his privacy or compromising him personally in any way beyond what they were seeking in terms of more information from this investigation.  And he told them no, not doing it, plus he destroyed the potential evidence. 

 

If you allow brady to be able to say you can't punish me for not turning over my cell phone based on constitutional rights, then basically anyone could claim a constituitional right not to self incriminate (5th amendment), so they could just say I don't have to testify and you can't punish me unless you have other evidence.  That would be an absurd position to put any private company in, not being able to punish employees when refusing to provide info in an investigation.  It would mean basically the NFL can't investigate anything, or at least it couldn't require any player to provide information into any investigation.

Edited August 3, 2015 by DrSpaceman

[ganesh]

These are businessmen who want to make money. Obviously, they want the prestige (and money) of winning the superbowl too, but this whole 'stick it to the Pats' mentality seems awfully not adult, for lack of a better word.

 

If the owners are ticked about anything, they're ticked because the Pats have been rather blatant and egregious and now it's harder for everyone to cheat. They also don't want Goddell treating their stars like he's treated Brady because, you lose money if you can't market your big stars. 

[mojoween]

Kenny Mayne did a piece about Dez's non-catch and Jon Gruden was part of it and it made me laugh so hard when he brought up the tuck rule because you could hear in his voice how angry he still is about it all these years later.

Also amusing to me is thinking back on my own feelings about it because I was actually rooting for the Pats in that game, probably because the Pats were at home and the snow and all of that. Then I rooted for them against the Rams in the SB because I couldn't stand the Rams or Kurt Warner. But that was the end of that fandom.

[ganesh]

I heard on the news that Brady's full testimony was released.

[merylinkid]

The transcript was released.   Profootballtalk.com has a seres of posts about it.

 

Basically, if Brady hadn't played games with the text messages, he would have practically a slam dunk case (and I don't say that often) against the League for lying and mishandling this so badly.    

[mojoween]

I seriously honestly do not care any more about deflated balls. The only thing I want to know is if Kraft was so goddamned sure no one did anything wrong why did he accept the fine and loss of draft picks and why were the equipment guys suspended?

Otherwise, Tommy can play week one, week five, or never, I don't want to hear it anymore. They're ALL guilty of something.

Let's get on the field! Let's not take away the accomplishments of the guys going into the Hall this weekend.

(Oh PS this isn't in any way directed to anyone on here. I was referring to TV and Twitter)

Edited August 5, 2015 by mojoween

[merylinkid]

Kraft accepted his punishment because he thought a display of contrition would end the whole thing.   Goodell loves it when people say "yas suh, Mr. Commissioner, I dun sorry I screwed up.   I am right sorry I made the NFL look bad."    (language done deliberately).   Then Goodell can look all benevolent and say "Well, if you're really sorry this time, I won't suspend you."   That's what Kraft thought would happen with the Brady appeal.    Except Goodell got burned badly about the Rice debacle and doesn't want to look like the stern, but loving father anymore.   He wants to be The Hammer.   On everything.   Including soft balls that no one ever cared about before.   There is absolute no reason for WHY balls must be the pressure given.   There is no data on what happens to balls in cold weather games, even with all the teams still playing outdoors in the cold.   

[xaxat]

I really want to go to the party Jerome Bettis is throwing on the weekend he goes into the Hall. He got EPMD, Whodini, Slick Rick, Biz Markie and Rakim.

Edited August 6, 2015 by xaxat

[Ohwell]

Oh baby youuuuuu...you got what I neeeeed. 

 

I could just see myself jamming to that.

[DrSpaceman]

The transcript was released.   Profootballtalk.com has a seres of posts about it.

 

Basically, if Brady hadn't played games with the text messages, he would have practically a slam dunk case (and I don't say that often) against the League for lying and mishandling this so badly.    

 

 

So if basically had not refused to release his text messages and had actually cooperated with the investigation and lied about his involvement, he would not have been suspended for failing to cooperate with the investigation and lying?  

 

I can't argue with that. 

[ganesh]

 

Kraft accepted his punishment because he thought a display of contrition would end the whole thing.

Which is typically does. That's basically how life works. *Everyone* figured the 4 games would go to 2. Probably if it had, Brady would have said, 'ok' and we all would have moved on. It's going to be shadow over the NFL and everyone is going to be saying how it's taking away from the game.

[mojoween]

I just...I'm insulted, actually. It's one thing to make your experience inclusive, quite another to be exclusive to the wimmins which appears to be sexist. Shut up, Tampa. And please don't ever let the Giants do something like this.

"Event highlights will include an “Insider’s Talk” with Buccaneers General Manager Jason Licht, surprise appearances from Buccaneer legends, gameday style tips from local area experts, and even a RED Lifestyle Lounge session to educate attendees on the art of incorporating their passion for the Bucs into their other lifestyle interests such as tailgating and home entertaining."

[xaxat]

You're not the only one. Buccaneers Want Women Barefoot, Pregnant and In the Stadium.

 

 

Unfortunately, instead of making their female fans feel valued, the Bucs' initiative, RED, is a slap in the face to every woman hoping to be taken seriously. It's a new program built on the old tropes that women don't understand football and that the way to a female fan's heart is through her wardrobe.

 

It feels like a throwback to a decade ago, when the league's "outreach" to women revolved around Alyssa Milano touting her girlie jerseys. 

[Bastet]

That this isn’t a parody, but instead a real initiative that multiple people signed off on, is just downright sad.

[mojoween]

There is just no way for me to say this without coming across like a huge hypocrite, because while I agree with almost everything in the article xaxat linked, I don't know why we need to get rid of cheerleaders.

Cheerleaders of today aren't portrayed as the bubbleheaded bimbos of yore, at least I don't think they are. Cheerleading is not easy and takes skill and talent. For the teams that have them, it's just a fun diversion during a game that I don't think is harming anyone.

Now their criminally low wages and sexual harrassment against them is another thing. That shit needs to stop.

[merylinkid]

I'm female and I don't mind the cheerleaders.

 

I don't a special "fan experience" complete with mansplaining just because I am a female fan.   I like football.   What more does the team need to do to keep me that interest that they don't do for the men?   

 

Treat us like fans, not an anomaly that needs to be catered to.   You will be amazed at the results.

 

 

(at least we are back to talking about the NFL's tone deafness about women again instead of Brady's soft balls).

Edited August 6, 2015 by merylinkid

[Rick Kitchen]

Aldon Smith was arrested yet again for a DUI, and the 49ers have cut him.

[Snowprince]

As a Niner fan this is a big loss, but there was no other choice. Good move, enough is enough.

[Dejana]

So, Tom is super uncooperative in refusing to turn over info to the NFL but the appeal info dump includes his emails about pool covers, website domains, Tom Ford shirts and exchanges with Bridget Moynahan about their son: which is it?

[Fukui San]

NFL claimed that Tom Brady wanted the testimony sealed.

 

The judge decided to unseal the testimony for transparency.

 

The testimony transcript clearly stated that Brady wanted the testimony unsealed. 

 

The NFL is blatantly lying to get their white whale, and now it's out in the open. 

 

I'm sure that Brady is a bit embarrassed that it's out there that his wife overruled him on the color of his pool color and that US Magazine is judging his co-parenting skills (favorably, apparently), but it's laid out in the open that this entire case is built on lies by the league office for anyone paying attention.

 

John Dowd, the investigator who did the Pete Rose probe for MLB, has put together this web site to make the case against Goodell.  This seems the best place to start.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Fukui San

[Minneapple]

Now is always the time of year I get excited to see football games.

 

And then the preseason starts and I remember just how horrendous preseason NFL football games are.

 

Of course, I'll be watching.

[merylinkid]

Nothing done in the games will be as bad as Tim Brown's speech.   Never has so little been said while taking so much time.    It got to the point where he was saying "I just got to tell you a story about this" and I was yelling at the tv "No, no, you don't.  Shut up."   I have very few memories of his speech other than it rambled.   

 

I get it.   It's their night in the spotlight and they should be able to speak as much as they want.   But they really really really should take the time to work with a speechwriter so the time is not wasted.    A memorable 5 minute speech is so much bettern than a 30 minute ramble down memory lane.   And if a good speech takes 30 minutes, you won't notice it.   

 

This especially irked me because Sidney Seau was not allowed to speak from the podium about her dad in the interest of time.   Ummm, SERIOUSLY?????   If the Hall is so concerned about how long speeches are that dead enshrinees family members are not allowed to speak, change the eligibility rules.   You can only be considered for enshrinement after you are dead.   Booom.   Ceremony takes 5 minutes.   But if there are going to speeches --- everyone speaks.   Period.   It's just not fair to the memory of those who happen to die before they got in, that they get treated differently from other enshrinees in the interest of saving time while living enshrinees get to ramble all they want.

 

Fran Tarkenton speaking on behalf of Mick TIngelhoff was so sad.   

[mojoween]

It's always sad when someone passes on and they just announced during the Yankee game that Frank Gifford died today at 84.

I didn't know of him as a player but I did watch him on NFL and of course Giants history is full of Gifford info.

[merylinkid]

All 3 of the original Monday Night Football guys are gone.   They never got the booth right again after those 3.   

 

Gifford was a helluva player too.    He was in the 1956 championship game.   The photogenic face of the Giants against the blue collar Johnny U.   

[Snowprince]

Actually, there's one left. Keith Jackson was the play by play man for the first season of MNF with Dandy Don and Howard. Frank took over the role when Keith went back to doing college football. This is the intro for the very first game in 1970.

 

 

 

Rest peacefully Mr Gifford. You were always a class act, both on the field and behind the mic.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Snowprince

[Snowprince]

I didn't know of him as a player but I did watch him on NFL and of course Giants history is full of Gifford info.

He was the 1956 NFL MVP and was inducted into the HOF in 1977. Unfortunately he's probably best remembered as a player for the below iconic photo of being the victim of a vicious hit by Eagles linebacker Chuck Bednarik that sent him to the hospital for 10 days and eventually ended his career.

 

http://www.8thafhs-pa.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/chuck-bednarik.jpg

Edited August 10, 2015 by Snowprince

[Calvada]

Al Michaels is in midseason form.  Thanks for explaining to us that when the clock goes to all zeroes, that means the quarter is over.  

 

Can't you tell that Al just loves reading those promos for the upcoming NBC shows?  He really doesn't try very hard to keep the "what a load of crap" tone out of his voice.  

 

 

[xaxat]

I'm not happy with how what Adrian Peterson did to his son is now framed with terms like "tough love" and "discipline".

 

Hitting someone until you draw blood is abuse. 

[Calvada]

I will never look at Peterson without thinking of what he did to that child, and what he's probably done to his other children.  I agree, broadcasters should stop tiptoeing around it.  It wasn't tough love, or discipline.  The man beat a 4 year old child bloody.  He is a child abuser, a criminal, the lowest of the low - someone who would deliberately harm a child.  

 

But this happens all the time; the broadcasters always dance around this.  Look at the Ray Rice situation.  It wasn't until the video of what happened in the elevator came out that suddenly people were all worked up, not until they saw the actual punch and were horrified by the violence of it.  I'm not sure what they were expecting.  She was knocked unconscious.  Didn't they realize it was the result of violent behavior?

[ganesh]

If you can play in the nfl, it doesn't really matter if you beat your kids, wife, literally kill people while driving drunk multiple times. Of course they're going to dance around it. The league needs to get knocked down a peg. It's beyond farce.

[King of Birds]

Geno Smith - sucker punched! Out 6-10 weeks. Does the low QB rating matter now?

[Moose135]

Geno Smith - sucker punched! Out 6-10 weeks. Does the low QB rating matter now?

 

Days like this, I'm glad I'm a Giants fan.

[xaxat]

JPP  has to be glad he's no longer going to be the focus of pre-season chatter. 

[Ohwell]

I wonder who else saw Geno Smith get punched?

[Mountainair]

According to several media reports Geno Smith wasn't actually sucker punched. He was involved in some sort of verbal altercation over $600.00 so it's not like homeboy just ran up out of the blue and broke his jaw. Of course now, the spotlight is being put on other QB's around the league and "my" very own Cam Newton was involved in an altercation with teammate Norman at camp this week over a interception at training camp.

And in "late to the game" news http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/13314040/colin-cowherd-no-longer-espn-air-comments-dominican-republic-players

I actually grew to like Colin and hadn't tuned into ESPN radio most of the summer until recently wanting to listen to some coverage following the hall of fame game and was taken aback to hear two other sports casters on the radio instead of Colin. I really didn't care for the new team they have on in his place.

Also, Halycon, are you heading up the football pool again this year?!

Edited August 13, 2015 by Mountainair

[Bastet]

Mother Jones picked up on the patronizing "Women's Movement" initiative from the Bucs, and showed it's not just them - or the NFL - treating female fans this way.

[mojoween]

I didn't watch any games today or even any highlights yet but ten minutes browsing Facebook and my Tebow hate is off the chain. PLEASE tell me the entire season isn't going to be like this.

[merylinkid]

It won't be.    Tebow is a camp arm.    He still can't see the whole field.   He didn't play that well against third stringers.  You have to be amazing out there when you are 4th on the depth chart.  Barkely is the 3rd QB if they keep 3 (and maybe the 2nd if they cut Sanchez and only keep 2) There is no way Chip Kelly keeps him for the season when they have so many other needs.