S01.E07: Kiss, Kiss, Bye Bye

[The Crazed Spruce]

The quest to uncover the mystery behind D'avin's missing memories leads the Killjoys to a black market.

[Janimo]

WHOA!! I only watched the last few minutes.....I dvr'd it and hope to be back here after I watch all of it......

Dang, I hope this show is renewed......

[venusnv80]

That was a great episode and I think a total game changer (even though the previews didn't seem like it). Poor Dutch and Johnny. It's a shame that I can either take or leave D'avin. I didn't think I would like the doctor too much, but she totally worked in this episode. 

[DearEvette]

Welp.   That was kinda epic.  The first half of the ep kinda set up some pins and was feeling a little laggy, but then the second half blew in and knocked them all down rather awesomely.

 

I was feeling very disappointed that they decided to go there with Dutch & D'Avin and then the last half of the show just made it all work so well.  The fight, fall out & aftermath would not have had the same emotional punch if they hadn't had sex.  And I loved the last scene of the two of them together.  Well acted by Hanna John-Kamen and Luke MacFarlane.

 

Even my feelings for Pawter shifted from the first half f the show (annoying) to the last half (kinda bad ass)

 

Meanwhile, I have to say the story is really moving.  No lagging on finding out what happened with D'Avin and we got more layers in Dutch's personality. 

 

I hope this gets renewed.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Hey, it's Col. Samantha Carter as evil Dr. Jaeger -- so D'avin was a prototype weaponization for something called Project Chrysalis, and the aim of the project was to turn soldiers against their own men.  Why would they want that ?

 

I hope that Dr. Jaeger probably thinks she's 10 years old and Dutch killed her assistant so that the memory wipe on Jaeger can never be undone.

 

Who is Dr. Pawter really ?  Because that's obviously not her real name after she tossed her weight around to get that medship there to save Johnny ASAFP.

 

When D'avin stabbed Johnny, I yelled out "Noooooo !!"  It was interesting when Lucy didn't know what to do when Johnny lost consciousness, but then went to emergency mode to try and save him.

[Janimo]

Dayum, I had no idea this show could ever be as great as this ep was.....Boring IT WAS NOT!! 
I really, really, really hope this show is renewed. We only have 3 more episodes??

PS Dark Matter is so boring compared to Killjoys, but that's just my two cents.

Double dayum, I had no idea I would start caring so much about Dutch and Johnny.,,.and Pree. Heck, I even liked Dr. Pawter and didn't mind D'Avin tonight. Does that mean that hell is gonna freeze over???

[sluggish neko]

Well, that was a super fast hook-up and break-up! Just like the episode title promised! Johnny was right, Dutch & D'avin are epically bad at relationships.

 

This episode didn't seem that promising at the start. Pawter was acting desperate with D'avin again, D'avin was ghosting on her... so he could get with Dutch, and Johnny walks in just at the right time to see them together. How cliché can it be? To be fair, it was refreshing that John wasn't romantically jealous, only concerned that he would be caught in the middle when it all inevitably blows up like a kid stuck between divorcing parents. He's rightly bummed. Forcing to pick between mom and dad sucks.

 

Then suddenly, the Dutch/D'avin hook-up pulls a Buffy/Angel (yeah I know it's not exactly the same, but it sure is convenenient that Dr. Jaeger turned the kill-all-teammates switch on right after Dutch's sexytime with D'avin) and things get really interesting. How fun was it to see Lucy freak out over John? I'm still annoyed with Pawter, but she gets special points for saving John's life.

 

And just like that, D'avin's backstory is revealed and the Dutch/D'avin attraction is out of the way 'cause she can always say: hey, the last time we tried that, you beat the crap out of me and stabbed your brother and left him to bleed out... probably not a good idea.

Good job, show.

[sjohnson]

When you have the swishy bartender shouting out to the audience, you know you've made a mistake. What baffles me is that anyone believed Johnny's problem was with brother/sister banging. I guess it was the hand gestures that sold it. Johnny loves Dutch, not like a sister, sorry, folks, they're kidding you when they say that. Dutch/D'Avin works (by the kind of aesthetics this show uses) because D'Avin is hotter than Johnny, no matter what mysterious problem some folks have with Luke McFarlane. The rapid termination of the smoking hot sex was pretty funny.

 

Dr. Magnus in Space!

 

The absence of any emergency medical services in port is truly bizarre, even for this show. In a way, a quibble, but something so obvious sorely tries my willing suspension of disbelief. I want to get into it, don't pull me out!

 

Mindraping Amanda Tapping may have been fun viewing for some, but the military still has the research, so D'Avin is still vulnerable. Worse, the story that the army covered it up by erasing D'Avin's memories is absurd. That doesn't cover it up, since D'Avin would still be around to wonder what happened and find out. Any real cover up would include killing D'Avin. A key element in his backstory, his innocence, is nonsense. As for the notion that Johnny actually believes D'Avin himself is morally innocent, his beating D'Avin in the face says, no, he doesn't, no matter what his mouth says later.

[cynic]

This episode was terrible until the last third or so. All the D'avin/Dutch scenes were flat and lacked chemistry. The writing seemed hokey too.

After the fight (which seemed pretty well-choreographed), things got better and I liked how the episode resolved. However, it was a rough and boring slog getting there.

The only consistently good thing in the episode was Johnny. Ashmore always brings it. I just wish Johnny had made a move to reach out to Dutch when she was hurt, though she probably would have rebuffed it anyway.

Speaking of Dutch, I usually love her, but she seemed off for most of the episode. To be fair though, I doubt many actors could pull off those terrible heart to heart scenes with D'avin anyway. But even her wig seemed off. Also, they need to be careful showing long shots of her walking until she learns to stop clomping around with her arms swinging wildly. That walk does not scream "cat-like assasin".

Edited August 1, 2015 by cynic

[thuganomics85]

Disappointed that Dutch/D'avin really happened.  At least it already seems to have ended before it started, but it just comes off like a typical "Female lead hooks up with the generic male supporting character" thing.  Complete with the less attractive character of the three (sorry, Aaron!) finding out, and being upset over being a) a third wheel and b) them breaking up and him might having to pick a side.  I figured it was heading there, but I would have rather they waited until after the seventh episode to take this obvious path.  Like, way after.

 

That said, the rest of this episode was pretty good.  I figured they were going to go down D'avin had been some kind of mind-controlled solider and his memory loss was to hide what really happened.  And seeing him in badass, unemotional killing mode was a sight to be hold.  The fight scene between him and Dutch was great.  I like that while Dutch did hold her own physically, it was her craftiness that gave her the edge in that fight.  And both of them really did look in rough shape at the end of it.  

 

I kind of figured John wouldn't die, but him getting stabbed was intense.  Glad Lucy really does care about him to send out a distress signal and Pawter got to him. Certainly made up for her being all pathetic over D'avin earlier this episode.

 

With this out of the way, I guess the rest of the season is going to focus more on Dutch's back-story and them trying to figure out what in the hell is her evil mentor up to.

Edited August 1, 2015 by thuganomics85

[rove4]

I thought it was a great episode with wonderfully emotional moments all around. I know some people here dislike D'Avin for some weird reason but I've always liked him and I thought he wad great tonight. That last scene between him and Dutch broke my heart. They are two damaged people who will hopefully one day make peace with their pasts. Dutch thinking she can't be with anyone because she's a killer underneath it all (so she fears) is just so sad. The scene of D'Avin wringing out his brother's blood...gah! This is why these two need John, why they all need each other.

I was also glad to see that there was no romantic jealousy on John's part. I had never seen anything romantic between him and Dutch so far but I was worried the show would veer into love triangle territory with this episode. I'm happy to be wrong. Instead he just has the very practical concerns of picking up after it all blows up. I love that the show has held firm to the idea that he and Dutch are best friends. So very rare to see that sort of relationship between a man and a woman and it's working well here.

I loved the scene between the brothers when John was remembering D'Avin when he was younger, "That was the scariest five minutes of my life". *sniffle* I love these boys.

I'm glad Pawter saved John but I still wish they'd write her out of the show...or at least give some of her minutes to Pree. More Pree please!

I thought Dr. Jaeger would stick around longer, Amanda Tapping and all, but I got a kick out of Dutch not giving her the punishment she wanted. Give her the one that will really hurt, atta girl. She made an interesting comment to Dutch though, something like "if you knew what was coming to the quad..."

[Wynterwolf]

I am still processing the eps, because dayum, a lot happened.  But there was a bit of John's denial to Pree that rang a little false to me.  At this point, I think they could take it in either direction, that John does have feelings for Dutch that he's suppressing, or that he really does mostly think of her as a sister. But John does love both of them, and I could see him taking whatever info he gets on Khlyen and going after him on his own to help Dutch...  but we'll see, I certainly wasn't expecting this ep to go down the way it did.  And yeah, "Pawter" just got way more interesting to me too.  

[ramble]

I ship Lucy & John. Yeah I know it's wrong. I don't care.

[wayne67]

I ship Lucy & John. Yeah I know it's wrong. I don't care.

 

Me too. John just needs to give her a software upgrade with that hybrid tech that tech girl was going on about and he can hook up to the ship and they'd be one...

 

I am mildly curious as to what threat could be so dangerous to the Quad that they'd have to develop a mind control technology that can overcome the bonds of warriors to combat it.

[Ariah]

 Complete with the less attractive character of the three (sorry, Aaron!) finding out,

 

Sorry, I cannot agree with you on that. Johnny is far more attractive, both physically and emotionally for me.

 

Also, I believe that while Johnny does believe in what he says when he swear that Dutch is family and he thinks of her as a sister, there is something more, subconsciously. The punch he dealt to D'avin was an indication. And I wouldn't mind. I think it would work, actually.

 

Anyhow, this was an intense episode, but action and emotion-wise. I do appreciate when details click together, and they did - the seaker ball Dutch used to get out of her holding cell, the mysterious past of the good doctor Pewter... It all worked into the episode. The final scenes with D'avin cleaning up Johnny's blood - that's how you do an emotional scene without too much talking.

 

Those of you who complained there's not enough sex in the series - I hop you're happy now. There was sex + J.J. Abrams light flares. A combo!

 

So, was Dutch really married and widowed, or did I misheard that bit?

[ottoDbusdriver]

Pawter: "Oh, I get it. you were pulling a fade. Didn't have the courtesy to break up to my face."
D'avin: "Break up ?  This was never an official relationship."
Pawter: "You're officially an asshole."
D'avin: "And you've been nailing your patient while treating him for mental trauma so maybe I don't get all the blame here."

 

I like that Utopia looks like someone opened up a nightclub in a Borg cube.

 

Johhny: "Oooh. Looky here. All your specs on Jaeger's technique. You don't mind if I borrow this, do you ?"
Blonde: "Little bit. Yeah, kind of need that."
Johhny: "Well karma called. She said suck it."

 

Hmmmm.  Advanced memory wipe technology -- I'm thinking a Dark Matter/Killjoys crossover at some point.  :)

 

So, was Dutch really married and widowed, or did I misheard that bit?

 

Dutch confirmed to D'avin that she was a warrior princess by marriage -- and subsequently widowed.

 

Pawter: "Avignon, this is an emergency evac to my location. Medical Authorization number 54-Alpha-9 Priority Code Angel. That means get your asses here now."

Avignon: "I'm sorry doctor. Medships aren't approved for your sector."

Pawter: "This is Illenore Seyah Simms of the Land Simms. And if you ignore my call I will have you staked in the rain."

 

Which apparently is a big enough threat that the medship gets there pronto. So I'm thinking Pawter is a rebellious, yet still influential, daughter of one of the Nine Families that control the Company.

 

Interesting that we got a graphic of the Quad systems -- Qresh, Liethe, Arkyn and Westerley.  Looks like Liethe, Arkyn and Westerley are habitable moons orbiting Qresh -- ergo, the name the Quad.  Now I'm curious about how many other known worlds are out there.

 

ETA: to correct Pawter's last name from Sims to Simms.

Edited August 1, 2015 by ottoDbusdriver

[Chaos Theory]

I stopped watching the show but I caught the last twenty or so minutes waiting for Dark Matter to start so I think I caught the best parts. The evil doctor was a nice touch. The computer in love with Johnny is the only character I actually like on the show. Lucy and Johnny are my OTP. I still hate Johnys brother with the power of a thousand firey suns and I really don't care at all about Dutch and angst.

[SimoneS]

I thought it was an okay episode. I cringed at the Dutch/D' avin hook up. Johnny's reaction, stabbing, and the fallout was the best part, IMO. I did like Dutch wiping the doctor's memory. It was a fitting punishment.

Edited August 1, 2015 by SimoneS

[Ariah]

Pawter: "This is Illenore Seyah Sims of the Land Sims. And if you ignore my call I will have you staked in the rain."

 

Which apparently is a big enough threat that the medship gets there pronto.

 

And in the preview for the next episode we can see why being staken in the rain is a big threat.

 

It's pretty gruesome.

[MissLucas]

Definitely the best episode yet - damn did a lot happen!

Hey, it's Col. Samantha Carter as evil Dr. Jaeger -- so D'avin was a prototype weaponization for something called Project Chrysalis, and the aim of the project was to turn soldiers against their own men.  Why would they want that ?

It's the ultimate weapon if you can turn it against your enemy - his soldiers finish off each other, no losses for you.

 

Although I like D'avin I was all 'nope, nope, nope' when the hug did not end platonic - glad show then pulled a massive Whedon on us. That was brutal on all accounts and although the symbolism of D'avin cleaning away his brother's blood was a bit heavy it sure worked.

 

And Pawter is not who she said she is (and she's bloodtype 0), intriguing. I guess the story how she got out of trouble last episode was also a lie. Girl has some massive clout she's hiding.

 

I like how they keep dropping hints about the weird going-ons outside the Quad. First racoon eyes girl got all enthusiastic about a piece of tech from way outside the Quad and then Dr. Jaeger mentions a threat 'coming to the Quad' - looks as if she's freaking out about the same thing Khylen did.

 

I ship Lucy & John. Yeah I know it's wrong. I don't care.

As someone who ships Nick and Dr. Lee I have no problems with this.

Edited August 1, 2015 by MissLucas

[Tigris Tv]

These weapons - a soldier who can be made to kill his team, and a "bomb" that only kills by genetic similarity - sound like ways of killing from within a group - or very specific targeting of people, and I think are hints of a ramp up to something horrible.  If those two have been found - what other insane weapons are out there of a similar nature, and is there a clock ticking somewhere?  I may have to re-watch the series to better fill in my gaps about this world.

 

On another note.  I am beginning to trust the writers a lot, so the weirdness and occasional off-tone notes of Dr. Pawter's character I think may be quite intentional to the story.  Just trying to figure out what.  When she broke the neural link thing, my immediate reaction was "she did that on purpose!". 

 

 

The absence of any emergency medical services in port is truly bizarre, even for this show. In a way, a quibble, but something so obvious sorely tries my willing suspension of disbelief. I want to get into it, don't pull me out!

I can't remember exactly, but I thought that they had commented on the fact that there was little medical help in that port(?) in the first episode with Pawter.  She had to threaten a person to get some medicine, if I remember correctly, and commented on the lack of services there and the hard way people were living.  Even if there was a medical centre in port calling the ship makes sense.  In real life people sometimes get airlifted to hospitals that are further away than other medical centres that are closer to where they were hurt based (I assume) on the quality of care/expertise/resources that is needed.  In this case he needed blood.  If she has trouble getting medicines in this place, I imagine there isn't an ample stock of blood lying around. 

 

 

Also, I believe that while Johnny does believe in what he says when he swear that Dutch is family and he thinks of her as a sister, there is something more, subconsciously.

The punch he dealt to D'avin was an indication.

To me the punch didn't push me one way or the other.  If the situation of everyone's family ties were different, and Dutch was his biological sister, and D'avin was his best friend who he thought of like a brother -  I think he still would have punched D'avin.  I also think in that situation (pre him knowing about the fight) he wouldn't be keen on having his best friend and his sister sleeping together and working together; knowing they both are bad at relationships and therefore feeling pretty sure it will end up badly and force him to choose sides (his sister or his friend).  For me, all of what he has done and said so far regarding not wanting Davin and Dutch to hook up is not inconsistent with him thinking of her as a sister.

 

I felt like the discussion with the barkeep was for the writers to acknowledge what they assumed the audience would be thinking, and allow a context for Johnny to clear up his feelings on the matter.  I think the writers are savvy enough to know some people would be turned off thinking the show might turn into a relationship triangle angst-fest and so are trying to put that to rest.

 

Doesn't mean that he doesn't harbour some unresolved feelings towards her though - just not ones that are dictating his actions or feelings regarding Dutch and D'avin together at this moment (in my opinion). 

 

Having to write D'avin's name so much has made me wonder - is there a reason his name is spelled like that?  Is it supposed to be short for something?

Edited August 1, 2015 by Tigris Tv

[ottoDbusdriver]

Having to write D'avin's name so much has made me wonder - is there a reason his name is spelled like that?  Is it supposed to be short for something?

 

It's probably like Teal'c from Stargate: SG1 -- just a name.  It is the future after all -- and it could be worse, his parents could have named him Toby.  Toby Jacobis (the 's' is silent afterall).  :)

[cynic]

Sorry, I cannot agree with you on that. Johnny is far more attractive, both physically and emotionally for me.

 

Also, I believe that while Johnny does believe in what he says when he swear that Dutch is family and he thinks of her as a sister, there is something more, subconsciously. The punch he dealt to D'avin was an indication. And I wouldn't mind. I think it would work, actually....

I prefer John in every way as well. And yeah, I think (or want to think) that John is in some denial. Admittedly, it's probably mostly because of my aversion to D'avin. But I also think that it would be nice, for once, to see an OTP grow out of a healthy, mutually respectful friendship where both people enjoy each other's company than a lusty hookup between near strangers whose main commonality is dysfunction.

 

 

...Dutch confirmed to D'avin that she was a warrior princess by marriage -- and subsequently widowed.

 

....Pawter: "This is Illenore Seyah Simms of the Land Simms. And if you ignore my call I will have you staked in the rain."

I'm really happy with the world building and character backstories this show is spooling out. These two tidbits have me more fascinated by Dutch and have saved the Doctor's inexplicably D'avin loving character for me. Anyone know what the "Seyah" part of her name signifies? Is it a title? Is it a family name? That Nine character's name included it as well. Her name was Delle Seyah Kendry.

 

 

...

Having to write D'avin's name so much has made me wonder - is there a reason his name is spelled like that?  Is it supposed to be short for something?

I always wondered about D'avin's name. Specifically, what kind of parents name one kid D'avin and the next kid just John?

[miracole]

oh my gosh, such a good episode.  Not a fan of the Dutch and D'avin hook-up but with it juxtaposed with their massive throw down, it really packed an emotional punch(no pun intended). However it's disappointing that after all Johnny's convos with both of them they still hooked up. An upset Johnny is not cool. And dude, D'avin tried to high-five Dutch in bed.  He does not get to call Johnny a nerd or anything else ever again. 

 

I Liked Utopia.  Now that Johnny seems to have developed a rapport with that one techie chick I hope that he gets an invite back. I also thought Johnny's demo of Dutch and D'avin hooking up was hilarious.  

 

I don't  think that Johnny punching D'avin necessarily had to do with him having subconscious "romantical"  feelings for Dutch.  I just think it had to do with the fact that D'avin beat the crap out of his best friend. He was horrified when he saw Dutch's face as he should have been. And he punched D'avin as he should have.

 

I did feel bad for D'avin having to again deal with hurting people he cares about.  All his emotional scenes were well done.

 

Hope Dutch and D'avin don't end up becoming a thing, hope it was a one and done. I don't need for any of them to be together but I'd be down with Dutch and Johnny over Dutch and D'avin. 

 

And goodness I  am sick of typing D'avin's name.  All I hear in my head is the way Stephen L. pronounces it on the after buzz show.

Edited August 2, 2015 by miracole

[crowswork]

so D'avin was a prototype weaponization for something called Project Chrysalis, and the aim of the project was to turn soldiers against their own men.  Why would they want that ?

Think how perfect it would be. You capture a single soldier - wire him up - send him back to his squad/ship/base and at the opportune moment turn on the crazy.

Him cleaning up the blood was so sad...what was he supposed to do? leave it?

Edited August 2, 2015 by crowswork

[Latverian Diplomat]

 

Pawter: "This is Illenore Seyah Simms of the Land Simms. And if you ignore my call I will have you staked in the rain."

 

Which apparently is a big enough threat that the medship gets there pronto. So I'm thinking Pawter is a rebellious, yet still influential, daughter of one of the Nine Families that control the Company.

 

Interesting that we got a graphic of the Quad systems -- Qresh, Liethe, Arkyn and Westerley.  Looks like Liethe, Arkyn and Westerley are habitable moons orbiting Qresh -- ergo, the name the Quad.  Now I'm curious about how many other known worlds are out there.

 

Pawter tried to use her family connections last week to avoid being arrested. The security guy later came back and said they don't amount to anything, apparently she has been completely disowned. The guys on the med ship don't necessarily know that though.

 

According to the first ep, the Quad System is part of something called the "J star cluster" which includes several other systems, and there may be more outside "J". That said, all the episodes have taken place in the Quad. The scope of the Company and of the RAC are unclear, although the Company seems to be completely Qresh owned, and if the RAC is just a single system outfit all that "The Warrant is all stuff" is kind of silly, IMHO. 

 

I believe it's been more or less stated that Dutch and Khylen are from another system.

 

We haven't seen Lucy or any other ship traveling FTL, FWIW.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Latverian Diplomat

[ZoqFotPik]

Pawter tried to use her family connections last week to avoid being arrested. The security guy later came back and said they don't amount to anything, apparently she has been completely disowned. The guys on the med ship don't necessarily know that though.

Maybe he used the name "Pawter Simms" and not "Illenore Seyah Simms of the Land Simms" and her contacts didn't know who he was talking about. She did seem to get out jail pretty quickly though so maybe she still has some influence with her real name.

 

According to the first ep, the Quad System is part of something called the "J star cluster" which includes several other systems, and there may be more outside "J". That said, all the episodes have taken place in the Quad. The scope of the Company and of the RAC are unclear, although the Company seems to be completely Qresh owned, and if the RAC is just a single system outfit all that "The Warrant is all stuff" is kind of silly, IMHO.

I've assumed that The RAC goes where they are needed, and with Company's money and the hinted at rebellion, that The Quad is currently "where the action is".

[Ariah]

The prison-cage-fighting ship in episode 1 also travelled across the systems (I guess...). That's how D'avin got to the Quad in search for his Doc.

 

Anyhow, I went to tumblr (I know, I know) and saw a number of posts actually pro-D'avin/Dutch. I was trying to understand the reasoning behind it, other than "they're both hot and the hookup was hot and the kiss was hot" and "they're both broken, they fit together". Frankly, I'm in the "glad they got THAT out of their systems, let's not dwell in the past" team.

 

Right now, after the episode so focused on D'avin (is his full name Dadavin or something?) I'm hoping the next one will feature more Johnny. I want to see how Johnny reacts to D'avin now. Actually, I want him to randomly use the stabbing in any argument he might have with his brother.

 

"Remeber that time when you stabbed me in the gutt? Your argument is invalid."

 

I also want Lucy to show some passive-aggressiveness, like shutting the door on D'avin or giving him only cold water in the showers. Oh, the possibilities.

[MissLucas]

Anyone know what the "Seyah" part of her name signifies? Is it a title? Is it a family name? That Nine character's name included it as well. Her name was Delle Seyah Kendry.

Good catch - once she had uttered the rain-staking threat (just watched the promo, yikes!)  the medship replied with "We're on route, Seyah", that certainly makes it sound like an honorary/aristocratic title.

 

ETA: When company guys dismissed her connections during last episode and had her arrested he only refered to her as "Illenore Pawter Simms". So I guess the Seyah part is really the crucial part here (which probably got her out of jail quickly too).

Edited August 2, 2015 by MissLucas

[diebartdie]

I wonder if they are actually spelled "Davin" and "J'onny"

[ottoDbusdriver]

I wonder if they are actually spelled "Davin" and "J'onny"

 

We did find out that Johnny's middle name is Andrash -- when Pawter asked Lucy what Johnny's blood type was.

[DearEvette]

According to the first ep, the Quad System is part of something called the "J star cluster" which includes several other systems, and there may be more outside "J". That said, all the episodes have taken place in the Quad. The scope of the Company and of the RAC are unclear, although the Company seems to be completely Qresh owned, and if the RAC is just a single system outfit all that "The Warrant is all stuff" is kind of silly, IMHO.

 

The RAC is fully independent and go wherever they are needed, so they operate all over the galaxies, even outside of the Quad system.  I got the impression that their are RAC outposts everywhere and Dutch & Co. seemed to be kinda stationed in the Quads because that is where they are from. 

 

I actually like 'The Warrant is All' because it explains so much about them and the broad authority of the Killjoys. From the first ep, you could tell that as RACs they have a lot of leeway to do whatever they need to do in order to enforce a warrant.  Dutch flashes her badge and knows it will get her out of anything if it is in pursuit of the warrant.  They are outside of the local laws.  During Ep2 where they go to that bombed out place, Sugar Hill to rescue that girl and  where everything seemed completely lawless,  the minute Dutch showed they were Killjoys it defused a hostile situation.  But, like we saw in this last episode, if they are doing something that isn't in pursuit of a warrant, then they are subject to the local laws.  It is also a kind of rule for them because nothing should get in the way of a Killyjoy pursuing their warrant.  Fancy is the embodiment of this credo.  I think if the writers stick to this then their world-building logic will make sense during the course of the series.

 

 

 

Anyhow, I went to tumblr (I know, I know) and saw a number of posts actually pro-D'avin/Dutch. I was trying to understand the reasoning behind it, other than "they're both hot and the hookup was hot and the kiss was hot" and "they're both broken, they fit together". Frankly, I'm in the "glad they got THAT out of their systems, let's not dwell in the past" team.

 

I would have preferred them not to dip their toe into the sexy time this early in the show's run.  If Dutch and D'Avin showed some real chemistry over time then I would have been all for it.  I am a minority on this board as I actually like D'Avin and am not 100% opposed to a future D&D get together.  That said, the sex worked for this episode only because of the aftermath.

 

And that said, the idea of Dutch and Johnny getting together does feel to me like a brother and sister.  Johnny gives off a sweet puppy vibe that simply doesn;t work with Dutch's cynicism for me.  She feels like she would be too much for him.  Which is why if they had to/have to go there with one of them getting together with Dutch I do prefer it to be D'Avin.

[Latverian Diplomat]

I wonder if they are actually spelled "Davin" and "J'onny"

No, those are two different brothers, who hang out with their sexy boss Frenchie over in the Quint system.

[Latverian Diplomat]

The RAC is fully independent and go wherever they are needed, so they operate all over the galaxies, even outside of the Quad system.  I got the impression that their are RAC outposts everywhere and Dutch & Co. seemed to be kinda stationed in the Quads because that is where they are from. 

 

While that is certainly consistent with what we've seen, it's never been explicitly stated on the show. On the one hand, the RAC claims a lot of independence, on the other hand, the Company seems to have a lot of leverage. That's not completely incompatible with the RAC being a huge, powerful outfit that just believes in customer service, but it would help to see the RAC stand up to the Company at some point, in the appropriate context, to make all that clear.

[arjumand]

 But even her wig seemed off. Also, they need to be careful showing long shots of her walking until she learns to stop clomping around with her arms swinging wildly. That walk does not scream "cat-like assasin".

 

Re. the wig - thank you! I was distracted for most of the episode by thoughts of "What the hell is that on your head, girl?" I mean, why does she have to wear a wig? Was her earlier hair a wig? It didn't look like it. I officially hate this wig and want it to die.

 

I think the clomping around is caused by the boots - she has to wear boots to look COOL, but they're not very stealthy. To be fair, she's trying hard to not be the "cat-like assassin" anymore.

 

I have to be honest, I liked the sexing, though I didn't think it had to be a relationship, just a FWB thing. But now that Dutch is all poor widdle me, sex is off the cards, I guess. The thing is, it was kind of her pride that was hurt, in my opinion always - she kicked his ass, and came off better than his actual brother, who got ventilated.

[Wynterwolf]

Interview with the showrunner about what this all meant, and hints about where they're going.  

 

So, even granting that showrunners can and do lie, I'm going to take her at her word that Johnny doesn't have any romantic feelings for Dutch, that she is essentially his sister.  But because I much prefer this:

 

But I also think that it would be nice, for once, to see an OTP grow out of a healthy, mutually respectful friendship where both people enjoy each other's company than a lusty hookup between near strangers whose main commonality is dysfunction.

 

 

I will probably continue to ship them in my personal AU.  This is also why I tend to be really strongly attracted to slash ships, because they start from a place of friendship and true partnership.  And it sucks that we don't really get that in any romantic pairing.  But okay, I'm glad she stated that clearly, and I'll move forward with the show with that in mind.  

[Latverian Diplomat]

Maybe he used the name "Pawter Simms" and not "Illenore Seyah Simms of the Land Simms" and her contacts didn't know who he was talking about. She did seem to get out jail pretty quickly though so maybe she still has some influence with her real name.

 

Well, he doesn't say "They never heard of you" he says "No one on Qresh gives a shit what happens to you here." which implies his contacts know her and know she is on the outs with her family. She doesn't protest, so it would seem that he's got her number. And, to be honest it would be silly if a Company security bigwig got tripped up over getting her name wrong.

 

On the other hand, a med ship captain is probably not going to know her backstory, and is a lot easier to bluff. (You'd think there'd be some sort of authentication at some point, so apparently she still has the right to use the title, but no actual clout).

[ottoDbusdriver]

Interview with the showrunner about what this all meant, and hints about where they're going.

 

So, even granting that showrunners can and do lie,

 

In that interview, the showrunners say that is the last that we will see of Dr. Jaeger, but IMDB has Amanda Tapping appearing in the season finale as well.  Hmmm, are the showrunners lying or is IMDB wrong ?

[Wynterwolf]

I was already expecting to see Dr. Jaeger again at some point, since her 'end' was so ambiguous, but it's sounds like the difficulties are more a matter of schedules matching up.  Maybe her appearance in the finale is a flashback?  Or part of the 'previously on...'?  For a long time, IMDb had two of the supporting actors listed as the main cast, and you couldn't even tell who the main cast was from their listing.    

[sjohnson]

Generally the image one has of a brother/sister relationship is that the brother is protective of the sister and the sister is supportive of the brother. (Big sisters/little brothers vary a lot but that dynamic only applies in childhood.) If that seems like it reflects disparities in gender roles, yes, cultural mores influence everything. So, are Johnny/Dutch brother/sister?

 

Johnny is far too cool to need support from Dutch, and Dutch is far too invincible to need protection. Really Dutch is far too perfect to need Johnny at all. The alleged brother/sister relationship just doesn't exist on screen. Dutch doesn't even need Johnny as a partner. He's just a convenience. And she is so closed off emotionally I'm not sure you could see Johnny as a best friend. She's opened up vastly more with D'Avin, in an entirely believable way. And Johnny's too cool to be a helpless puppy she takes care of, to show she's really nice as well as awesome. Perhaps she keeps Johnny around to make Lucy happy?

[Tigris Tv]

I am pro D'Avin and Dutch, and I did see chemistry right off from the beginning.  I think it's a YMMV type of thing.  I like them together because I find they have a similar flirtatious, slightly cheesy, physical energy that I just don't see between Johnny and Dutch. The "high five in bed" exchange was just the tone I expected from them.  I think both actors have done a fantastic job selling this potential relationship to me (even if just a casual thing) and even have sold to me the "what could have been but now cannot" ending as a sad thing whereas others are cheering about it.  So there are those out there who like them for more than superficial reasons. 

 

Ok, confession time -  both being fighter types (and therefore I imagined that their foreplay/lovemaking might be quite physical!) might have played a big part (subconsciously) in why their chemistry popped for me.  :) 

 

The empathy and compassion they showed towards each other's unhappy histories added a deeper level of trust? gratitude? not quite sure what the right word is, but I can imagine them thinking "thank you for understanding, thank you for knowing what I mean and how bad it is and still accepting me".  Dutch only shared her history as far as she did because D'Avin thought his was so much worse and that he believed Dutch couldn't understand what he was feeling.  I would not be surprised if Johnny only knows a small amount about her past - that she killed people/was trained to kill people - because I can't imagine what would have prompted her to tell him more especially when she thinks its something she can't be forgiven for.  I can imagine her wanting Johnny to have as good opinion of her as possible and therefore sheltering that side of her from him.  There are some things that are easier to share with people who are more like strangers but have a similar experience, than it is to share with the people who love you but who don't have that experience.  It makes sense that the thing to break their resolve not to get physical with each other would be from whatever strong emotions/bonding would be triggered with that conversation.  

 

Widowed warrior princess - my theory is that she killed her husband.  That she was put in the harem, trained to kill, and used in a coup like situation.  And that no one would suspect her because she was so young, or it was made to look natural. If that is the case, the other people she was killing might have likewise been for political reasons.  Maybe she was also one of these "weapons from the inside". 

 

The alleged brother/sister relationship just doesn't exist on screen. Dutch doesn't even need Johnny as a partner. He's just a convenience. And she is so closed off emotionally I'm not sure you could see Johnny as a best friend.

I think at the very least Dutch's hug of Pawter (VERY out of character) and way that she was watching the surgery, and watching over him while he was sleeping shows some kind of emotional connection to him. 

Edited August 2, 2015 by Tigris Tv

[Wynterwolf]

sjohnson, I think your preconceptions are showing, as were mine.  ;-)  That's one thing I really love about this show, that they are taking a lot of expected tropes/relationships and putting them through a paradigm shift.  Johnny knew about Khlyen, and what it meant so Dutch has shared with him in the past, but since we pick thing up almost immediately after D'avin shows up, we didn't get a chance to see on screen what their relationship was like before.  We've gotten hints here and there, but it's been subtle and so much of the focus has been on the affect of D'avin's presence, so that skews what we're seeing now.   

[Mars477]

Generally the image one has of a brother/sister relationship is that the brother is protective of the sister and the sister is supportive of the brother. (Big sisters/little brothers vary a lot but that dynamic only applies in childhood.) If that seems like it reflects disparities in gender roles, yes, cultural mores influence everything. So, are Johnny/Dutch brother/sister?

 

Johnny is far too cool to need support from Dutch, and Dutch is far too invincible to need protection. Really Dutch is far too perfect to need Johnny at all. The alleged brother/sister relationship just doesn't exist on screen. Dutch doesn't even need Johnny as a partner. He's just a convenience. And she is so closed off emotionally I'm not sure you could see Johnny as a best friend. She's opened up vastly more with D'Avin, in an entirely believable way. And Johnny's too cool to be a helpless puppy she takes care of, to show she's really nice as well as awesome. Perhaps she keeps Johnny around to make Lucy happy?

Holy archaic gender roles, Batman!  What are you, from the 1950s?

 

The brother-sister relationship between Dutch and Johnny is pretty clear to me.  They really care about each other, but not in a way that is even remotely romantic or sexual.

[miracole]

In the brother and sister dynamic of Dutch and Johnny, Dutch is definitely the big sister. But the big sister in a set of fraternal twins  Dutch teases but loves and is protective of Johnny, while Johnny teases and annoys Dutch but also loves and  looks up to her. Johnny is also very protective of her too as seen by him not wanting her to make another bad relationship mistake or to keep dealing with her serious problems by herself. I think their dynamic is somewhat  like his and D'avin's  but they're much better friends then he and D'avin are and have a lot more mutual respect. I do agree that Johnny doesn't "need" Dutch but Dutch certainly needs Johnny. I would like to know how Dutch was before she met Johnny. I have a feeling he has a lot to do with her being even slightly well adjusted. Also all the things Dutch told D'avin Dutch obviously had already told Johnny a long time ago. Also, while Johnny looks up to Dutch it's not in a worshipful way just in a you're totally awesome and I'm glad you're my best friend way. But he still sees her for who she really is, I don't think he sees her as perfect at all. D'avin on the other hand has totally put Dutch upon a pedestal and nothing good can ever come from that because those pedestals are never very sturdy.

 

 

We did find out that Johnny's middle name is Andrash -- when Pawter asked Lucy what Johnny's blood type was.

 

I missed Johnny's middle name being Andrash. Wasn't D'avin going by Kobe Andrash in the first episode?  Awww that's kind of sweet if he was using part of his brothers name as an alias. I'm guessing Davs middle name is Kobe then?

Edited August 2, 2015 by miracole

[ottoDbusdriver]

I missed Johnny's middle name being Andrash. Wasn't D'avin going by Kobe Andrash in the first episode?  Awww that's kind of sweet if he was using part of his brothers name as an alias. I'm guessing Davs middle name is Kobe then?

 

Nice catch @miracole -- took a look back at the Bangarang episode and the warrant that popped on Johnny's device had the name on D'avin's warrant listed as 'Kobee Andras'.  So you may be right.

[patchwork]

Think how perfect it would be. You capture a single soldier - wire him up - send him back to his squad/ship/base and at the opportune moment turn on the crazy.

Him cleaning up the blood was so sad...what was he supposed to do? leave it?

 

Not just soldiers trusted household staff and co-workers would be perfect sleeper agents. Have them use poison or make it look like an accident and kill themselves in the process. Kill the competition and one lone nutter gets the blame.  

 

The show probably will re-visit D'avin/Dutch but for now it's thankfully off the table. I don't think John has more than platonic feelings for Dutch but she, Lucy and the RAC are his life now and he'll choose that life over a brother he hasn't seen since he was a kid.

 

Or so he says, when it comes down to it he might actually find himself choosing differently.     

[Ariah]

Interview with the showrunner about what this all meant, and hints about where they're going.  

 

 

Because I am awful like that, I refuse to belive the showrunners and keep on shipping Dutch and Johnny as life-time partners with mutual respect and friendship that can eventually develop into more romantic feelings. I am hopeless and I am not ashemed.

[MissLucas]

Random observation: When Dutch asked D'avin to show her his eyes I couldn't help thinking: 'It's alright, he doesn't have the defiant pupil anymore!'

[sjohnson]

Holy archaic gender roles, Batman!  What are you, from the 1950s?

 

The brother-sister relationship between Dutch and Johnny is pretty clear to me.  They really care about each other, but not in a way that is even remotely romantic or sexual.

Yes. 

 

However I have kept my eyes open. Hopefully you have too, and seen numerous examples of male/female friendships in real life. But you haven't seen any a bit like Dutch/Johnny is supposed to be, because the friends have other priorities, particularly their romantic partners. And they don't live together to the exclusion of other romantic partners, with the occasional one night stand. They don't even have to live together on the ship, which apparently they do. Which is actually kind of hard to believe because the interior of that ship is ugly, boring and shines light into your face sideways for no obvious reason.

[call me ishmael]

Given that the episode ended on Dutch being more worried about her own capacity for violence than D'avin's does anyone wonder if she is a widow because she killed her husband and that is why she fled wherever she came from and why Khylen claims he is protecting her?

ETA: oops sorry Tigris Tv i missed your comment on this.

Edited August 3, 2015 by call me ishmael