S07.E07: Venice Finals

[OnceSane]

The top 30 competitors from the Venice Qualifier tackle the Venice Finals course, which includes such obstacles as the Salmon Ladder, Rumbling Dice, Clear Climb, and Invisible Ladder.

[Way Wes Jr]

And of course, Thunderstorms are being predicted for tonight... grr...

[VartanFan]

Jessie Graff is a boss. That course was a killer.

[GeminiDancer]

OMG! YAY! I'm so happy for Jessie Graff. She's absolutely badass with the way she made the adjustments on the hourglass drop and then with the salmon ladder and the rolling dice. I'm not going to lie, I'm coveting her arms and her back muscles.

 

This course overall though was killer. Kevin Bull, this is why you aim to finish, not to have the fastest time!

[Lantern7]

Thirty competitors, one finisher. That has to be a record for this show. I ask the same question I did on TWoP about Sasuke: Do the guys who plan the course get bonuses for failure? The Hourglass Leap (probably wrong, I know) is brutal enough, but then you throw in Rumbling Dice (now with different weights!), Clear Climb and Invisible Ladder . . . damn.

 

Dunno how to feel about the freegan being the only one to finish the course. Dumpster diving for grub squicks me out. Maybe I'm easy to gross out . . . I nearly ralphed seeing the Ninja Scout prepare roast rabbit.

 

And yeah, Jessie Graff is a badass. ANW will probably hitch their wagon to her and other women who go far in the regional finals, even if they don't complete the course like Kacy did last year. Anybody else expect to see her in a t-shirt with "WILD CARD" printed on it?

 

In regards to Kevin Bull and alopecia . . . when are hairless guys cast as the bad guy? Lex Luthor is the only guy I can think of, and even then the character was mostly amoral on Smallville. BTW, is anybody tickled to see his success on Cannonball Alley from last season, specifically because they show the hairiest dude on the sideline wigging out over it?

 

ETA: I got my first bottle of Pom Wonderful today. I'm not usually that weak in regards to sponsors, but I'd like to enter the contest for the trip to Japan. Please tell me I'm not the only one.

[Kromm]

And of course, Thunderstorms are being predicted for tonight... grr...

This show actually happened weeks (maybe months) ago though...

[Entchen]

This show actually happened weeks (maybe months) ago though...

I think he means his show gets preempted for weather?

[Way Wes Jr]

We have had thunderstorms/ tornado watches for the last four Mondays in a row.  My terrestrial antenna does not care for the nasty weather, and I lose reception.  Except for the week when there were tornadoes in "Greater Chicagoland," and they pre-empted the show about halfway in.  Luckily, this week saw minimal glitching.

 

I was surprised by how few competitors made (any) adjustments to the hourglasss drop, especially in the first hour.  

If that ladder is replacing the spider climb for all the cities, ..., expect very few finishers, that looks brutal.

[Quilt Fairy]

Except for the weather crawl along the bottom of the screen for thunderstorm and flash flood warnings for the entire 2 hour show. At least my electricity only flickered.

 

Meanwhile, the guy who completed the course is one good-looking guy. (Says the post-menopausal woman. Oh, yeah, I'm in love, baby. )

[Lingo]

So can we agree that trampoline-centered challenges have got to go? I don't mind when they're used as the initial entry point to a stage like the salmon ladder or the cargo net, but the results of the hourglass drop felt too random, rather than based on skill.

 

Also, I agree that the Spider Climb from last year need to be made either more difficult or replaced, seeing how almost everyone who attempted it last year completed it, but does EVERY single challenge have to be based on upper body strength now? At least the spider climb mixed it up with a focus on leg strength. I was shocked that not even Kevin Bull and the Godfather could complete the course.

 

Also show, i don't mind at all when you skip over the early losers, and even some of the winners in the city qualifiers. But only 6 people made it to the Clear Climb, and you skip over one of them? C'mon.

 

But hey, go Jessie Graf! She was awesome. Fourth woman up the wall ever, first player to reach the Clear Climb tonight, and 6th overall. Very impressive.

 

And yeah, Jessie Graff is a badass. ANW will probably hitch their wagon to her and other women who go far in the regional finals, even if they don't complete the course like Kacy did last year. Anybody else expect to see her in a t-shirt with "WILD CARD" printed on it?

 

You mean Kacy? Oh yeah, Wild Card for sure. Jessie won't need a wild card.

[Kromm]

So can we agree that trampoline-centered challenges have got to go? I don't mind when they're used as the initial entry point to a stage like the salmon ladder or the cargo net, but the results of the hourglass drop felt too random, rather than based on skill.

It IS a skill though. And a great equalizer.

It plays to two extremes. Heavier people (big men) get an advantage because IF they hit it right they get a bigger result.

But at the same time, it's a skill relevant to gymnasts and a greater percentage of the female competitors come from a gymnastics background than from the men.

[SophiaD]

Well, that was really boring.  I'm happy for Jessie Graff, who is a serious boss, as mentioned above; for the Hawaiian guy who lost his mother, and for the freegan dude.  Other than that, color me thoroughly unimpressed.  I want a course that's difficult to run, not impossible.  It was like Stage One of the finals last year, when I had to watch athlete after athlete that I really liked, crashing and burning.  Dull, dull, dull.

 

Also, the "Invisible Ladder" has to go, IMO.

 

If this is the direction they're going to keep taking, I'm probably done after this year.  On the bright side, I got quite a lot of work done while I was "watching."

[nate263]

Did anyone else laugh really hard when Matt Iseman teased Travis' run with "Coming Up! : He gets his food from the garbage!" or whatever? They get so desperate for a hook sometimes.

 

That said, I was really happy that guy finished. I was worried they'd have no finishers and it would seem like the course was impossible and therefore a little unfair.

 

I definitely agree on there needing to be more leg-based obstacles. Maybe a tightrope you have to balance on. Or a series of ascending platforms you have to leap between without your hands, Mario-style.

Edited July 14, 2015 by nate263

[SnideAsides]

I think the problem is that, where the four stages in Vegas each test different things (Stage 1 is glorified parkour, Stage 2 is grip and balance, Stage 3 is upper-arm strength, Stage 4 is climbing speed), the city courses have such a random mix of obstacles that it's impossibly difficult to finish by design. I don't know what the answer is without making the city obstacles more repetitive, and they're frankly repetitive enough as they are.

[SophiaD]

I think the problem is that, where the four stages in Vegas each test different things (Stage 1 is glorified parkour, Stage 2 is grip and balance, Stage 3 is upper-arm strength, Stage 4 is climbing speed), the city courses have such a random mix of obstacles that it's impossibly difficult to finish by design. I don't know what the answer is without making the city obstacles more repetitive, and they're frankly repetitive enough as they are.

 

I think one solution would be to develop an overall structure for all qualifying courses and all city finals that looked something like this:  Legs, grip strength, upper body, core, balance, legs, grip strength, upper body, core, balance and so on. 

 

Then, develop multiple obstacles for each category (i.e. log roll, snake jumper, etc. for balance), and just plug in obstacles of each type for each city.  They wouldn't necessarily have to be in the same order (although I think three upper-body obstacles in a row is too many) to avoid boredom or repetition.

 

As it is, some cities seem really do-able - the second course of the year seemed to be easiest - and others are ridiculously hard, like tonight's course.

 

Also, the courses should be tested by athletes of all sizes.  If it's physically impossible for a short person to complete it - or a tall person, for that matter, it should be retooled so that it's at least technically possible.  Otherwise, it just feels like a setup, to me, at least.  YMMV.

[mlp]

Can someone explain how the invisible ladder works?  What kind of mechanism is at the top that makes them go up when they pull against it?

[SnideAsides]

I think one solution would be to develop an overall structure for all qualifying courses and all city finals that looked something like this:  Legs, grip strength, upper body, core, balance, legs, grip strength, upper body, core, balance and so on. 

 

Then, develop multiple obstacles for each category (i.e. log roll, snake jumper, etc. for balance), and just plug in obstacles of each type for each city.  They wouldn't necessarily have to be in the same order (although I think three upper-body obstacles in a row is too many) to avoid boredom or repetition.

That's basically what they do with the city courses now - Quintuple Steps, hold the sliding/rolling thing, bridge crossing, swinging obstacle, Stage 3 upper-arm killer, Warped Wall, Salmon Ladder, "grab the dangling thing" upper-arm obstacle, another Stage 3 arm killer, and then the final climb. I mean, I usually like the ideas for things like the Ring Toss or the Double Tilt Ladder, but... no way should they be in the city courses when they're the sorts of things that would routinely take out the experts in Stage 3. That's really why they're struggling to get finishers a lot of the time - there's no difficulty curve.

[jcin617]

Can someone explain how the invisible ladder works?  What kind of mechanism is at the top that makes them go up when they pull against it?

You don't pull, you "push" up; there are counter weights that keep the rope taught and "pushing" up releases a latch up top causing that arm to move up, when you stop the latch re-engages.    Sort of like reverse repelling.   (Or at least, that's how I picture it).

Edited July 14, 2015 by jcin617

[VartanFan]

 

You don't pull, you "push" up; there are counter weights that keep the rope taught and "pushing" up releases a latch up top causing that arm to move up, when you stop the latch re-engages.    Sort of like reverse repelling.   (Or at least, that's how I picture it).

 

I think you're right on here.  I don't think the difficulty is in the ring moving up; it's then pulling your body mass upward after the ring locks in.  To see the vets have that horrible grimace of pain/fatigue when they did it, shows how rough it was!

[backgroundnoise]

I don't know if it was deliberately planned, but my local weather station seemed to time their break-ins well.  They did it soon after the segment for the guy whose mother died recently started.  It was a pretty long weather break, and they cut back to the show just as he started his run.  Hee.  They also started to cut in right when the Bull was starting but then almost immediately went back to the show.  I wonder if someone in the control booth yelled, "WE CAN'T BREAK NOW!!"  Seriously, I would have been mighty pissed if I had missed the Bull just to be told the thunderstorm warning has expired.

 

Brutal course.  I don't like the invisible ladder.  Maybe if it shorter?

Edited July 14, 2015 by backgroundnoise

[Taeolas]

This was a killer course that had way too much upper body work (especially upper body obstacles with no breaks). Some parts of the course design are constants (Quintuple steps, warped wall, salmon ladder and I assume Invisible Ladder will be constant now), but the middle parts of the course changes from city to city. Venice this year needed some work.

 

IMO, what they should have done was changed the rules for the bridge obstacle. If you can trampolene jump to the final platform without touching the second bridge, you should be allowed to go on. Probably about a third of the contestants 'finished' that way, and it should have been acceptable. (Especially after seeing how 'deadly' it was in the first round)

 

The Salmon Ladder traditionally leads into an upper body task out of necessity; since they need an obstacle to 'safely' get them down to ground level again. But I don't see why the invisible wall couldn't have been up there (they have a similar obstacle in the Vegas stages at a similar height I believe). The pre-Invisible ladder stage should be a balance or lower body/leg task just for the break; something like the spinning logs we saw in Stage 2 Vegas last year.

 

Personally, I think I liked the Invisible ladder. It looks like a trickier challenge than it first seems, and clearly it's a body burner. 3 fails out of 4 so far; hopefully more will try it with more energy in the rest of the city stages. Venice was a super hard stage in the first round, and it only got harder in the second. A good second round city stage should probably see 8-12 people finishing, and this one was clearly out of tune. (Especially with so many of the initial 30 failing on a first round obstacle). I don't think they did any rebalancing between rounds.

 

As for the winners and contestants in general, not many comments. Major kudos to Jessie for legit getting as far as she did on a major killer course. But major boos to the hosts for comparing her clearly Wonder Woman inspired outfit to Supergirl. (Someone must have sent them an emergency memo early on since they did correct it by the mid point of the course. :) )

[theatremouse]

I'm a little torn on the invisible ladder. On the one hand, in the past it seemed like pretty much everyone who got to the spider climb finished it. (Someone tell me if I'm wrong? In any event an extremely high success rate.) So if there were any suspense at all by then, it was just due to time. That made it...sort of...boring for me?

On the other hand, invisible ladder, if it shall be the new ending-thing moving forward seems like too much of a leap forward. Although I guess, I don't know the numbers on how things change after the introduce a new obstacle, all the people with their own courses build one, practice the fuck out of it, then next year suddenly it doesn't have the kill rate? So maybe it was a good idea to go that much more difficult?

Heck, I mean, for a while there is seemed like the clear climb (is that the right name?) was knocking off everyone, but then the few people who did finish it, made it look ridiculously easy. It struck me as odd there was nothing in between. I guess that means it's mostly a fatigue factor and people were either spent or fine by then (or a height issue).

So I'm torn on degree of difficulty of new stuff. I sort of don't enjoy it if nobody finishes. On the other hand, if they wanted to change the tone of the show and really make everything much much more difficult so "nobody finishes" were more the norm, then some of their hootin' and hollerin' and ballyhooin' about how amaaaazing everyone is might seem less self-aggrandizing.

I mean, I can't do any of this shit, so props to the people with that kind of strength. I'm not trying to dismiss that this stuff is difficult. Yet, with the way the announcers go on sometimes you'd think someone pitched a no-hitter. Still, there is that practice-factor that makes it all less impressive for me. So if they can bring in a new obstacle and make it super difficult but not impossible, maybe it'll take more time for people to catch up. If it's a choice of "everyone fails" the course vs "everyone finishes" I'd choose the former any day.

[Taeolas]

The Invisible Ladder seems doable. But the Venice stage had it after a pile of upper body obstacles, so there was no real rest. Hourglass Drop, Warped Wall, Salmon Ladder, Double Dice, Clear Climb, they ALL make heavy use of the arms with few breaks in between to focus on something else. Hopefully in the next finals stages there will be more rested folk and we'll have a better take on the INvisible Ladder's difficulty. (Keep in mind in the old spider climb, you used your legs, and you could use that to give your arms a break. Invisible lader, you use your arms completely. While pumping with your legs might help a bit, it's all arms.

 

As for the Clear Climb, I suspect it was novelty and fatigue that knocked out a lot of people. Once the later people saw how the others attempted (and what didn't work) they could plan better what their attempts would be. That makes their attempts look easier overall. 

 

Judging from the other City stages, Venice is the outlier this year. Most of them seemed decently tuned to let a decent amount of people through, while not being too easy nor too hard. As I've said elsewhere, you ideally want the course to be challenging enough to only let about 90% of your targets through. So if you want 30 in the first round, you want about 25 people (give or take a few) to get through. For the Final 15, you want about 12 to get through. Venice was clearly too hard in both rounds (7/30 finished in Round 1)

 

Kansas City Round 1 was too easy on the flip side; 38 people finished.

 

Houston (15/30) and San Pedro (10/30) are a hair too hard. (San Pedro almost Venice too hard).

 

Pittsburgh (22/30) and Orlando (25/30) are in the sweet spot, at least for round one.

[Quilt Fairy]

Are the finals run the day after the qualifiers? In earlier seasons (where they ran the course during the day) they said as much. But now Iseman gives the impression that weeks have passed between the 1st and 2nd rounds.

[Kromm]

Are the finals run the day after the qualifiers? In earlier seasons (where they ran the course during the day) they said as much. But now Iseman gives the impression that weeks have passed between the 1st and 2nd rounds.

True, but they also pretend specific people did their run during the commercials--which of course is total B.S., since they have no idea what the edit will be and where commercials will appear when they put it all together months later (and redub a lot of what Iseman says).

 

Frankly the only stuff to 100% trust out of Iseman and Gbaja-Biamila is when you see them look over the little gap to the athlete at the top of the warped wall and yell over to them.  Everything else could be redubbed, time-transposed, etc.

 

Even the interview down at the bottom with whatever girl is the current "Interview girl" is suspect, because while those definitely happen on-site (so not re-dubbed), there's often no telling when they happened compared to the run.  After it, sure, but immediately after?  Later the same day?  The next night?  Who knows.

So WHEN are the finals?  Well, probably exactly when you THINK they are (and not what Iseman says on air).

[VartanFan]

 

Are the finals run the day after the qualifiers? In earlier seasons (where they ran the course during the day) they said as much. But now Iseman gives the impression that weeks have passed between the 1st and 2nd rounds.

 

I can't remember where I read it, but I read that the finals for each city are either the next day or have 1 day in between it and qualifiers.  One of the things that annoy me with the play-by-play is the obvious fibbery of "while we were away" or the order we see in the show of contestants and city events are as they are presented.  Why do they pretend that they're in some way "live".  

[Kromm]

If Iseman mentions stuff that happened in OTHER city qualifiers during the broadcast of an early final like this?  Well, it would be interesting to note if we see his face when he says it. Probably not (which means it's probably dubbed/edited in).

Edited July 15, 2015 by Kromm

[mmal]

ANW fudges the facts all the time. Look at how Houston was filmed before Kansas City, and they broadcast Kansas City before Houston.

[MyFavShows]

I've looked at tickets before and the finals were a day later than the qualifiers. When I saw that I realized how much they twist the timing cause I always thought there was a lot of time between a qualifier and the finals - but nope.

That guy that finished was really good - he had that natural agility that reminded me of Issac C. - made a lot of that course look easy compared to even the other strong competitors (like the rumbling dice). I remember his video from the qualifier and he was doing parkour type stuff on construction sites (like on those big steel beams) way high up like it was nothing - he really is superhuman. And I agree w/ the poster above who said he's good looking ;).

I didn't understand how the invisible ladder worked either but the post above explains it some - could definitely tell it was hard though cause of how the ones who made it to there struggled.

Jessie Graff was amazing - her upper body strength is outstanding. I hope she does well in Vegas.

I wouldn't mind at all if they did the invisible ladder in all cities cause it would be cool to see all those guys who train like crazy on all the traditional obstacles have to do something unexpected.

[Ciarrai]

When only one person finishes the entire course (and it's not your "headliner" Kevin Bull), that should tell them that the course is too hard. I was worried that no one would even make it to the final obstacle, so at least several people did even though only one finished.

[CrazyDog]

Jessie Graff was amazing. And the guy who finished made it look easy...he has a natural grace and athleticism that's just fun to watch. Is this his first season?

 

Count me on those who would like to see some obstacles focusing more on lower body strength or agility. All the arm work just gets old to watch.

[meep.meep]

Late to the party - this looked insanely difficult.  And not something a short person could handle.  The clear wall looked like you had to be 6 feet at least.

[methodwriter85]

Wow, that was ridiculous. I don't want this too easy, but 1 finisher out of 30 is ridiculous.

[QuantumMechanic]

And not just that, but things were so bad you could get to Vegas by merely finishing the 3rd obstacle!

[riverheightsnancy]

Yup, Jessie Graff and Nicholas (dumpster guy) were great. Jessie is my new inspiration.