S02.E10: And They Were Enemies

[Waldo13]

As an aside, I find Eva Green absolutely stunning. She is the ultimate Bond girl, as Vesper, in "Casino Royal". She is intensely beautiful Artemisia in "300 -Rise of an Empire" and Sibylia in "Kingdom of Heaven". I wonder if those roles convinced the producers to give her the role of Vanessa. I'm not familiar with Billie Piper as an actress except for "Diary of a Call Girl. I find her very attractive and looks wonderful in those period dresses. I'm wondering if Diary got her casted as Brona or her ability to switch from an English accent to an Irish accent. After watching them, I can't imagine anyone else in their roles. Additionally, I think that all the characters are perfectly casted.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Waldo13

[Cthulhudrew]

So the sentimental, homicidal sociopath is the most human of them all?

 

Sounds about right. 

[DeadlyEuphoric]

Heck, why did he need a conduit at all? Last season he was appearing to Vanessa as Malcolm and Ethan and screwing her on the bed without any need for this voodoo stuff at all. 

 

 

Was it him or was it his brother? I thought we dealt with one brother trying to get Vanessa in S1 and this season it was the other one trying? I may be wrong. But in any case, yeah, him needing the creepy Vanessa doll to speak was weird. I figured the idea was he was trying to unnerve her with the "face yourself, murderer, you are evil and  you know it so give in already" angle but yeah, that didn't work out very well for him, did it. I just loved Vanessa's "know your master" . So awesome to see a woman not only resist being taken over/tempted by the devil/demon but actually own him.,,,

 

Victor is a thick-headed, petulant, weak child, that is what he is, and I often find myself frustrated with him and wanting to smack him around a bit, but I also do feel sorry for him. He is extremely lonely and messed up, with nothing but his science to obsess about. I guess part of his wish to animate dead people has to do with him wanting to have "someone" in his life, but all his attempts have been horrible so far, except for Proteus, but then he wasn't around for long, maybe he'd go mad in time too. Caliban isn't that bad, actually, except for  the intense hatred he has for Victor for abandoning him. If it wasn't for his rather horrible introduction in S1 and murder of Van Helsing to intimidate Victor, he hasn't done much "bad", at least not when compared to others. Putneys' murders I don't count as bad, and I don't know if he left the daughter alive as punishment or as an act of mercy. I thought he didn't kill her, because he didn't have to kill her, he is not really the bloodthirsty monster that Lily is. He had calmed down by then, she was no threat to him and I think her mocking words didn't bother him that much this tiem as she looked rather pathetic trying to mock and belittle Caliban as she is standing there, unaware of what has transpired, so Caliban just walked away, leaving her to her own.... He is actually a lot like his "father" desperately wanting to be loved and having a companion, going to extremes to achieve that goal, and when he finds that he is failing, he becomes self-destructive and withdrawn. I sometimes wish Caliban and Victor could talk things out, they do kind of need one another I think.

 

I don't think Sembene was killed off or wasn't developed much because he is a character of color, we didn't delve into his past much because he was just a side character and he was killed off because he was just a side character and the actor was leaving and show runners like having someone close to the heroes die if they can. I think the fact that he was a favorite amongst viewers (as far as I can tell) suggests the writers did do something right with his character. He may not have gotten much backstory but he was given a "character" that made him feel important to the story, there was something about him that bound the characters together and made me feel they'd be safe with him around to protect them both from themselves and their own stupidity and egos and vanity, but also from outside forces, and his absence leaves a void - for both the characters and us viewers. I think his death was the reason Ethan finally turned himself in, and I think come next season the characters will continnue to suffer from his absense. So overall, I think that is a side character that is written rather well and given an importance to, though  one should also ackowledge the actor's fabulous job...

 

I think Hecate was aware Vanessa would own the Devil and Kali, so her releasing Ethan was all about getting him to kill Vanessa (and also why she tried to seduce him before, in an attempt to weaken his bond to Vanessa). I guess we will have to suffer Hecate and her planning some more come next season but I hope that is dealt with rather quickly.

 

Lily and Dorian are a creepy couple and were very much the mean popular highschool couple taunting the school nerd in their scene with Victor. And I can't buy the "we will rule the world, make them all suffer and bow down" plan of theirs because Dorian has been nothing but privileged all his life, and wasn't wronged and didn't suffer so "vengeance" is not his thing and please, he'd find ruling the world so utterly boring. He just gets a kick out of picking on other people as makes him feel superior, and will enjoy the mayhem Lily creates for a while because it is exciting and different. and then he will move on what it becomes repetitive, just like he moved on from Angelique when Lily came along.  So it is hard for me to think of them as the main villains of next season, even if they did manage to make me feel worried for Victor this episode. They just seem more like side-story material. Unless the devils coming after Vanessa decide to form an alliance with them, I guess. If Victor continues to be an idiot and hide what he has done and what he knows about Dorian now, Vanessa might be caught off-guard by Dorian and harmed... But then the devils want her to be their bride, and she needs to do that willngly, so harming Vanessa doesn't make much sense. Wonder if Vanessa's magical powers of Lucifer-owning work on animated corpses and soul-in-a-paintng immortal guys? If they don't, then she might be in trouble, otherwise I feel it should take just one growly utterance from Vanessa to send Lily back to the land of the death.

 

I love Vanessa-Caliban scenes, and I think they made me sympathize with him a lot this season, and I believe they play a part in Caliban not turning into a real monster - anytime he is completely let down by humanity and has every reason to write them off as nothing but cruel and selfish beings, there is Vanessa, showing him kindness and friendship and proving there is still some good in humanity, not all is bad. Which in turn makes it easier for him to hold onto the humanity within him.

[Maum]

I love Vanessa-Caliban scenes, and I think they made me sympathize with him a lot this season, and I believe they play a part in Caliban not turning into a real monster - anytime he is completely let down by humanity and has every reason to write them off as nothing but cruel and selfish beings, there is Vanessa, showing him kindness and friendship and proving there is still some good in humanity, not all is bad. Which in turn makes it easier for him to hold onto the humanity within him.

I agree. I feel that in a weird way there are each other's guardian angels.

Ultimately Caliban is looking for acceptance. This season he was confronted with horror- if the Putneys weren't bad enough it turns out his ideal mate is even more of a monster than they were.

This is why he decides to run away- he's given up on life until his meeting with Vanessa. He still leaves but not without hope and friendship which all he's always wanted.

God that scene really moved me.

[FurryFury]

So disappointed that Sembene's truly dead, but at least Lyle has made it. I certainly expected him to die since early in the season and I'm seriously happy he hasn't. I love this character.

 

The whole talk with Lucifer scene was underwhelming. I hoped to see him in character and/or get some hints about his background/mythology. Well, at least he's name-dropped Amunet, so now we know Vanessa's her reincarnation for sure.

 

The whole stuff with Caliban was weird. He didn't even talk with Bronlily anymore and I guess we're supposed to think he has just decided to check out of her evil plan? That was weird and anticlimactic. Still, even his scene with Vanessa couldn't make me interested in him. Please, go away and don't come back. 

 

Bronlily and Dorian dancing convered in blood was a great visual. This show always delivers when it comes to such stuff.

 

Ethan being brought back to the US was very predictable - I think I had called it half a season ago, if not at the beginning. Still, I don't mind. I hope his father will be well-cast because there's been a lot of build-up.

 

Also, obligatory thanks for renewing the show, Showtime. This season wasn't perfect but overall was better than the previous one. Previously, I was only interested in Vanessa (more intellectually rather than engaged emotionally) and to a much lesser extent, Sir Malcolm and Victor. After this year, I adore Vanessa, I like Ethan (and even somewhile like their romance, but not really shipping it or anything), I am very interested in Bronlily (who was the biggest surprise of the season by far), I still like Victor and Victor/Vanessa friendship and Mr. Lyle rules. Oh, and I still like Malcolm because of his relationship with Vanessa, but his beard will be missed.

[taanja]

That's an excellent point. Much like the monster under your bed: if you don't believe in it, it has no power over you.

The thing under my bed waiting to grab my ankle isn't real. I know that and I also know that if I'm careful to keep my foot under the covers, it will never be able to grab my ankle.

---- Stephen King

This show has quickly become one of my new obsessions. Billie Piper is just killing it! And that beautiful lady who plays Vanessa? Wow! Girl crush! and I didn't want to "ship" Vanessa and Ethan but damn you show! You went and made me. Yes you did.

[OakGoblinFly]

Ethan is heading to America...wonder where we are taking that.  Him sitting in that cage was terrible to see.    

 

 

As was the shorn locks - all that pretty, shiny, and oh-so-touchable hair gone.  :(

[attica]

As was the shorn locks - all that pretty, shiny, and oh-so-touchable hair gone.

 

 

Makes me wonder if Wolfman will have bald patches when the full moon comes around again...

[iMonrey]

Overall I enjoyed the second season much better than the first. Going forward, I hope they can construct a new season that doesn't revolve entirely around Vanessa though. I get it - Eva Greene is the big draw here, but two seasons of every other character obsessively orbiting around her and trying to save her soul is enough. 

 

I felt like there was some closure with the ending, seeing everyone going their separate ways, and it felt like they wrote it that way in case we didn't get a third season. It's hard to picture Dorian and Lily as the "big bads" of Season 3 if that's what they're planning, after the twin Princes of Darkness themselves were the antagonists for the first two seasons. Those are some pretty big shoes to fill, and aside from being tough to kill I don't see either Lily or Dorian as being all that powerful. For that matter, I'm not sure why they wouldn't die, if they can bleed. Especially that much (that floor was soaked). Why do they need blood at all if they can function perfectly well without it?

 

I didn't understand the significance of the scorpion melting into Vanessa's hand, either. Does it mean she's a witch now? Is she going to turn into one of those naked bald chicks? And what was the point of that transformation anyway? I never understood it. Seemed like a gimmicky way to sneak some nudity into the show and ratchet up the spook level rather than serve any practical purpose.

 

I didn't have any special attachment to Sembene so it didn't bother me to see him go. Would have missed Mr. Lyle more.

[Sakura12]

It was shocking to see Vanessa in light colors and smiling and married to Ethan. But ultimately she knew she knew she likes a little darkness in her life, it's all she knows. I hated they went the manpain route with Ethan just to separate him. Which is what they did for everyone except Vanessa and Lyle (who I was happy didn't die). 

 

Vanessa talking to her puppet self went on for far too long. 

 

Billie Piper really upped her game, she was brilliant as Bronily. The shot of her and Dorian dancing in their own blood was amazing. This show does do Victorian horror well. But I hate that they split up the team, they better find their way back to each other quick next season. 

[maczero]

So is Lily going to go after Caliban or will she lose interest now that she has Dorian? I can see her furious that he left without her knowledge. She clearly had plans for him.

I don't think she cares enough about him to put much effort in looking for him.  

 

I also did not like that Kali got quickly dispatched by Wolfman Ethan as opposed to having the full weight of aging fall on her.  I think that would have killed her as well (she's obviously been doing this for at least as long as her sister), but it seemed a bit of a plot convenience to get Vanessa and Ethan in the same room.  I mean, Vanessa had it handled.  

I'd like to think Ethan saved Vanessa's life.  Vanessa may have laid a verbal smackdown on the puppet but that doesn't mean she would've been prepared to deal with a sword wielding Evelyn.  Besides if Ethan's help wasn't necessary then that means Sembene died for nothing.

 

I think that's an excellent point. When it comes to Dorian whatever he's feeling at the time he really means it until he gets bored by it or finds something much more interesting to distract him. Which is why he was mooning over Vanessa's picture for so long until shiny new Angelique showed up. If it hadn't been here it would have been someone else.

 

It will be interesting to see how long this fascination with Bronily lasts.

I think he's in as long as they're causing chaos.  If they achieve world domination then I imagine his boredom will set in again.

 

You had to know that Caliban could break out of his cell at will. Still, it was satisfying when his captors got theirs.  It was, perhaps, deliberately cruel when he let the blind daughter live to be so handicapped and alone in the world.

I thought so at first but then again Lavinia isn't exactly penniless (no pun intended).  I imagine she would inherit the museum.  Daddy Putney implied that it was making money since they added the crime scene attractions.  I figure she's smart enough to hire someone to help her run the place so she could conceivably keep the place going.  Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if she added her parents death as an attraction.

 

WRT to good vs evil, to Bec's point about Lily being shown pretty much all-in evil right now, I hope also we are shown more from her.  Brona was apparently a sweet girl who was capable of love and being loved, why is Lily showing no traces of Brona?  Or is it more she is drunk with power and breaking free of Brona's (metaphorical) chains and real past life?  Will she have any regrets? 

I'm under the impression that this really isn't Brona or least not Brona's soul.  It's clear that Lily has access to Brona's memories but the personality doesn't fit with what we saw of Brona.  Lily is sadistic and manipulative.  At best, I'd say Brona's past is just fuel for Lily's megalomania.  

[Bec]

Whoever she is, she's not wrong that people keep trying to use her and own her, and she's not wrong to be fed up with it. But unlike Caliban, she doesn't get so many scenes in which she's supposed to be sympathetic. At least not so far.

 

Hell, I hate Caliban for killing Van Helsing and I still felt sympathy for him, they're writing him sympathetically enough to get past my disgust with his past actions.

 

So clearly the writers can work wonders if they intend to.

 

I wonder if Lyle was supposed to be the one to die (would have had the same effect on Ethan - and Sir Malcolm could have left with Sembene on an expedition to Africa like he was planning forever ago, with Vanessa seemingly safe now that the witches have been defeated), but they changed it to Sembene dying because Danny Sapani is leaving for another show anyway.

[iMonrey]

 

Vanessa talking to her puppet self went on for far too long.

 

On the contrary, I was pleasantly surprised how quickly they wrapped up Vanessa's defeat of Madame Kali & Co. I expected it to be dragged out for the whole hour.

 

I'm not sure I understand exactly what happened though. First of all, in The Nightcomers, there was this mysterious book the Cut Wife warned Vanessa about opening. Is that the book the puppet was talking about? Did she open it? Is that how she knew the "spell" or whatever it was that defeated the puppet? Does it mean she actually vanquished Satan Himself? What was the significance of the scorpions?

 

Visually and emotionally, the scene was satisfying but I have to admit I'm not real clear on what happened. Other than "she won."

[absolutelyido]

Overall I enjoyed the second season much better than the first. Going forward, I hope they can construct a new season that doesn't revolve entirely around Vanessa though. I get it - Eva Greene is the big draw here, but two seasons of every other character obsessively orbiting around her and trying to save her soul is enough.

So much of this season was Vanessa coming to terms with who she is. I hope we get to see Ethan on a similar journey next season. Since he is going back to the U.S., I'm guessing that will lead us to find out more of his past. I'm sure we'll meet his father. I would like to see an Ethan-centric flashback episode.

I didn't understand the significance of the scorpion melting into Vanessa's hand, either. Does it mean she's a witch now? Is she going to turn into one of those naked bald chicks? And what was the point of that transformation anyway? I never understood it. Seemed like a gimmicky way to sneak some nudity into the show and ratchet up the spook level rather than serve any practical purpose.

I don't understand that either. The scorpion has always been a symbol of protection for Vanessa. Does her absorbing it symbolize that she can protect herself from the demons now?

[dargosmydaddy]

 

It was shocking to see Vanessa in light colors and smiling and married to Ethan.

Interesting juxtaposition between the two dressed in white scenes (Vanessa and Ethan and their family vs. Lily and Dorian).

[LittleIggy]

How can Bronilly bleed? She was dead so her blood had to have coagulated. I wish Victor had shot her in the face.

[HumblePi]

All I can say is.... What a great series.

[Bort]

How can Bronilly bleed? She was dead so her blood had to have coagulated. I wish Victor had shot her in the face.

Brona isn't literally a talking corpse. Victor reanimated her, so there is some amount of circulation going on in there, just not enough to maintain a normal body temperature. She and John Clare are cool to the touch, though with his extremely white pallor, I suspect his body temp is cooler than hers. This probably also accounts for his odd eye color.

[Bec]

When Satan showed Vanessa the fantasy-vision of what her "normal life" would look like - the music really made the scene there. It was the same melody Vanessa and Ethan was dancing to in a previous episode, but slower and more melancholy in contrast to the ultra-bright lighting and happy-looking scene. When Vanessa said Mina and Jonathan are coming to tea and it hit me that this can never be, I just about started crying. And I didn't even think I care that much about Vanessa. Beautifully done, I don't think I would have been as touched without that music.

[Andromeda]

God, I LOVE THIS SHOW. I'm going to miss it so much. Too short! But because it's short, the quality remains high and we get a full complete story without a lot of extraneous plotlines there just to fill out 22 episodes.

Maybe I'm used to him, but I don't think he's as horrifyingly ugly as everyone else seems to think.

 

Especially at a period in history without plastic surgery. There had to be a lot of people with growths, scars, skin conditions and discolorations, unattractive birthmarks, battle wounds, healed burns, cleft palettes, missing limbs and no prosthetics, etc., because of poor healthcare and lack of reparative technology. He's really not ugly at all in that context. But I suspend disbelief and assume people perceive him as uglier than he really is, maybe because they can sense the coldness wafting off of him, or something just wrong about him that they find off-putting. That also explains (for me) why a blind woman would find him "grotesque" when he acted perfectly sweet and charming and she can't see him!

Edited July 8, 2015 by Andromeda

[Fredward]

I'm glad Vanessa turned down the 'normal' life, she did at the end of season 1 too yeah? She doesn't want to be normal. Check your psychic hotline satan. Your info is outdated. I think Vanessa is walking a line in which she is her own kind of darkness. She used to fend off satan's evil with faith, with light but at the same time faith requires a kind of passivity, an acceptance. Being on your knees and praying and not spitting satanic verse that burst puppet's faces. I like it. Own your future Van, take it on your own terms. You have access to power, use it. Don't become all about it, don't let it define you since that would be just as bad as giving up your soul to one of the divinities. Use it to be you.

 

I'm on the verge of declaring Reeve Carney an unfit Dorian. Someone earlier in this thread likened Dorian to a mirror of whoever has his attention at the moment and that felt spot on but, for me, it isn't properly reflected in the acting. Writing yes, but not the acting. Capricious, amoral (as in lacking any kind of morals not being evil) immortal lusting for new sensations and experiences. He shows you what you want if you're interesting and new until he gets bored and leaves. He's not going to make a very good megalomaniac since he'll get bored halfway through, he's not doing it cuz he's got a grudge against humanity, it's just something shiny and new. Carney to me is functional whereas the rest of the cast communicate all the nuance their roles require he just ticks the boxes.

 

Not sure how I feel splitting up the cast and setting up multiple potential big bads for next season. For a how with such a small ep allocation you'd think they'd want to keep everything tight and focused. Dunno. Guess we'll see.

 

Also. Lyle. There better be more of the queen with lovely hair next season. In fact the show should just replace Vanessa with Lyle.

[darkestboy]

Loved that finale. Granted both Evelyn and the master seemed a little quickly taken out but Hecate should resurface at some point to cause trouble though.

Not surprised that Vanessa and Ethan wouldn't get a happy ending but there's always next season.

Hated that Sembene perished but Malcolm did the honourable thing by taking his body home though.

Caliban escaped pretty fast. Liked his conversation with Vanessa as well.

Victor really screwed himself over with Lily, didn't he? Loving the power couple of evilness that Lily and Dorian are becoming.

Next season can't come quick enough, 9/10

[spaceghostess]

Loved the finale, but it was so, so sad. 

 

I'd already prepared myself for Sembene's absence--or so I thought. When it came down to it, though, I just felt that empty space where he should be terribly keenly, and expect to miss him through the rest of the series. Personally, I'd hate it if he "came back" in any form. He made peace with his life and his death; to resurrect him would cheapen his sacrifice and, knowing how that type of thing goes pear shaped on this show (and in literature in general) . . . nope. And I think he'd be hella pissed off about it, tbh.

 

Re: V's showdown with Evelyn: I also could have used a bit more between those two (will miss you, Helen McCrory!), but didn't mind all the interaction between Devil Doll Vanessa and Original Recipe Vanessa at all. It was creepy and weird and pushed all my buttons re: ventriloquist dummies being the absolute worst.* Also: I loved that it closed its eyes when they kissed. That's just exactly the kind of thing that makes this show great. There's a nifty video on the PD production blog re: how the dolls were made. I feel for the brilliant sculptor who created them, though, knowing they would be burnt to a crisp. Or maybe those were stunt dolls? But I wish Ethan had torn Hecate limb from limb. She's not compelling enough for me to want in future seasons, but I guess we're stuck with her.

 

I think the scorpion melting into V. means that she's accepted her own darkness as something she needs to move through the world. The scorpion is her protector, remember? So she's letting that part of herself live in her instead of calling it out externally when she requires it. But will this turn out to be something that makes her more whole, or a parasite? We shall see . . .

 

The "what could be" sequence broke my hard little heart. Reading romance novels is a big part of my job. In spite of that (or because of it?) they're never my personal choice of reading material. The cynic in me should have rolled my eyes at those gauzy images of domestic bliss, but that's not at all what happened. Instead, I felt wistful because:

 

a) V and E's interactions on the moors proved that they really get along wonderfully well. They showed the easy camaraderie and partnership one sees with happily married couples. And there's that other chemistry, of course.

b) Vanessa also desires children, which, for some reason, never occurred to me. But then, it's so obvious from her interactions with her compatriots that she'd be a patient, deeply compassionate, and loving mother. Seeing her with those kids wrecked me.

c) The fantasy was so absolutely perfect: an all-or-nothing proposition. But there are shades of gray in all relationships, be they friendships, romantic partnerships, parenthood, whatever . . . and of course, there's still joy and love. You can have love, Vanessa, dammit!

 

So I guess I've been unwittingly infected with Fairy Tale Ending disease, and the luminous quality of that sequence only made it worse. Do I want to see Vanessa dressed in cream lace, living a housewifely life? Nah, but a big part of me would love to see her dressed in whatever awesome Vanessa couture she wants, sharing her life with a (wolf)man who loves her,  having Mr. Lyle and Mr. Clare over for tea, and training her laser focus of brilliance and courage on any cause she chooses. And smiling. And being smiled at. Damn. It.

 

I guess Vanessa's proposition to Ethan shows that she doesn't want (or think she needs) to be totally alone, but she's aiming lower than she deserves, just hoping for some company in the darkness. Sadder still, Ethan isn't even at the point where he can accept those crumbs. I totally understood why he didn't take or share comfort with Vanessa. He probably figured he was saving them both even more pain (plus, how on earth would he ever have walked away once they'd shaken the walls of Malcolm's Manse with their scorching Gothic lovemaking?). But still. Way harsh, Ethan. But nice "Dear Joan" letter, I guess?

 

Which brings me to . . .

Ethan, Ethan, Ethan. Did you really think it would be that simple? Confess, hang, and be done with it? *Sigh* Sir, your journey is only just beginning. My speculation: What if these "extradition papers" are actually the product of some high-up string-pulling by the very wealthy, very powerful, and very connected Talbot Senior? I wouldn't be at all surprised if it isn't American law that wants Ethan to pay, but Daddy who wants him to pay for the crime of hauling ass out from under his big, nasty thumb. Will Rusk make tracks back to England as soon as he dumps Ethan off, or will he smell a rat and stick around to find out what's really going on? What if, having witnessed Ethan's transformation while he's caged, Rusk begins to understand him on a deeper level? What if, realizing that justice is no way, no how being served in the New Mexico Territory, he becomes an unlikely ally? I'd watch that; just sayin'.

 

Lily and Dorian: I dunno. Loved the ballroom set piece, but there are plenty of holes in their plan, if you could call all that bloviation "planning". I spend a lot of time squinting around the physics behind Bronily (and Caliban's) "immortality". Don't have this problem with Dorian's, as his healing is obviously magical in nature. But Bronily is supposed to be animated through scientific means. She's made of human parts--blood, heart, brain, etc.-- and was zapped to life with electricity. She should require human sustenance and it should take at least a fraction of human healing time (plus a few stitches) for that bullet hole to close up, even if it doesn't slow her down much. It would be interesting if, as a counterpoint to Dorian's insta-healing, we'd see Lily walking around with various oozing wounds and icky scabs (even though she'd be as peppy as ever!).

 

My buddy C/C: Thanks for dispatching the Putneys expediently, once you'd gotten them to reveal the honest-to-god monsters they were. Loved the "Oh, FFS" expression that passed fleetingly across C/C's face 'round about the middle of Putney Sr.'s speech about his dastardly plans for freaks. And yes,the truest justice for Lavinia is having to live out what's left of her life alone.

 

The scene with Vanessa was just too beautiful. Yup, I cried. EG and RK are everything. And the callback to the ice floes from the novel with the frozen ship at the end; just wonderful.

 

Mr. Lyle, what are you going to do now that you're free from the witchy blackmail that's had you in a stranglehold? I feel that you and your exquisitely coiffed locks have big things on the horizon. But first, I'd love for you to unwind on a wonderful world tour featuring luxury ocean liners and the Orient Express. Your traveling companion: why, Miss Ives, of course! For real, you both deserve it SO much. Maybe Victor can come, if he doesn't bring everyone down with his addiction to drugs and his own misery. Perhaps it would be a good rehab for him?

 

Seriously, Victor is in a bad, bad place, but it's hard for me to feel too sorry for him. Talk about making your own bed, jeez. I hope he can find a way through it, if only because I REALLY don't want next season to be one long episode of Victorian Intervention.

 

Re: Sir Malcolm, I am of two minds: On one hand, I'm glad he's bringing Sembene back (and possibly facing some of his own demons re: his horrible sins in Africa in the process?). On the other hand,  I don't want the show to spend too much time there, as Malcolm isn't my absolute favorite, and flashbacks to his atrocities rate at about the same level as extreme closeups of Victor's track marks in terms of places I'd just as soon not go.

 

You guys? Thanks for your wonderful insights re: all things Penny Dreadful. I love coming here. :-)

 

 

*Although apparently John Logan thinks they're the best! I read in an interview that he's an amateur ventriloquist and has dummies all over his office. I'd love to see that . . . and then have nightmares about it.

 

Edited because "reactions" and "interactions" are two different things.

Edited July 8, 2015 by spaceghostess

[iMonrey]

 

Not sure how I feel splitting up the cast and setting up multiple potential big bads for next season. For a how with such a small ep allocation you'd think they'd want to keep everything tight and focused. Dunno. Guess we'll see.

 

I suspect the season ended with everyone going their separate ways because they didn't know if there would be a third season when they filmed it, and this gave the ending a measure of closure. Victor, Brona and Dorian were the only characters that were sort of left hanging. Everyone else had an ending of sorts.

 

I fully expect next season to begin with a time jump that finds them all back together again - or at least on their way there.

[luckyroll3]

Greatness!! The entire episode was phenomenal.

It was so interesting to hear Dorian use the term, "they" in regards to humans/mortals. That whole scene, with Dorian and Lily crisp in white, Victor dark and disheveled, then the contrast of the blood slowly dripping out of the wounds and down their clothes while they berate and threaten Victor....breathtaking and creepy.

Looking forward to next season.

[Raachel2008]

R.I.P. Ethan's hair. You'll be missed.

 

I enjoyed the finale, it was a solid episod, with great visual, amazing acting and clever writing. However, while I'm not against all those open endings, I would have liked it way more if we had a couple of another episodes showing the aftermath of all those storylines and any indication  where tthey are really going. Not sure if I'm thrilled with the idea of a good chunk of next season being about their paths until all thse people reunite again, but we'll see.

 

I LOVED that Lily has always known the truth, but how come she didn't die? Caliban killed the first creature, so why can't he or Lily be killed? Sounds kind of BS to me, but I'm giving it a pass because the blood ball was such a stunning scene, so pretty. It is going to be interesting to see if she really becomes the big baddie of season 3, or if there is some redemption for her - I've always expected Lily to look for Ethan as soon as she remembered her previous life as Brona, and what they had was real, so maybe those feelings will 'save' her. Can't wait to see this.

 

Word to whoever said that Reeve Carney is almost unfit to play Dorian. He is not a bad actor, far from it, but I don't think he has the gravitas to give Dorian that much needed darkness. It is like he plays darkness with such lightness that it is almost ineffective for me, even when he is killing people. Maybe they should have hired an actor a few years older? The lack of depth shows.

 

No simpathy at all for Victor. He reaped what he sowed and differently than others I don't believe he did it to help the Creature, he did it to save his ass. I've never been a fan of the character and quite honestly I don't think he is remotely as interesting as the people he interacts with.

 

Sir Malcom, meh. I love Timothy Dalton, but Malcom is so... not 'noble' enough I guess?

 

I'm sad to see Sembene go, the character had so much potential. But two seasons and they did nothing with him, so better let the actor get decent material somewhere else because that is unfair in some many levels. As many here I don't like at all that the only black character was killed, that on top of Angelique's death is just dumb. I really don't know what those writers were thinking - a show with vampires, werevolves and all kind of evil creatures, but you can't find a way to keep the black guy and the transgender? Screw that.

 

Eva Green was brilliant, as always. The scene with Satan  was awesome. Vanessa has always been kinda of powerless against evil, she did fight  possession but in a way she has always been a victim, a prey. Right there she turned tables and told evil 'fuck yourself, bitch, you want me, you have to work harder to get me, until then fuck you, again'.

 

I was very surprised that Vanessa's 'dream life' included children. I know that for a woman back then children would be an ingrained idea, but it was a nice insight into the character - deep down she wants that kind of perfect life - though what I found really  really telling, but should not be, is that she wants it with Ethan. Boy, do the devil knows how to tempt her or what?

 

I realize I'm very very very easy, because that alternate Vanessa/Ethan scene was lovely and really got me. These children were perfectly cast and adorable to the highest level - mini Vanessa's scowl was all kinds of fun. I'm not sure if Vanessa and Ethan will ever be together - how can anyone be sure with this show -, but the finale made it pretty clear that they do love each, so true form Victorian romance there.

 

Here is what I don't get: Ethan knew from the very beggining that his father sent people after him, so how it is possible that he didn't even think that maybe daddy dearest would find a way to get his son back? This said, that cage looked too fragile to contain werewolf Ethan. 

 

Can't wait to see who will play Papa Chandler/Talbot. Any bets?

 

Lyle is too awesome for words.  "Never underestimate the power of a queen with lovely hair, my dear." HA! Heartbreaking scene when he asked Victor to keep his religion a secret, that spoke volumes: he hides himself all the time, because he needs to survive. All Lyle, all the time.

 

I never liked Evelyn, but I'm very sad to see her go. She was great AND I appreciated to see a regular character that was a woman in her mid 50's. Kill the black, kill the trans and kill the 'old' woman. Come on, show.

 

I know they are all talented actors, but Rory Kinnear is in a whole different league. I'm not very fond of Creature/John/Caliban, but his acting is riveting.

 

I'm still waiting for Penny Dreadful to bring on the gypsies. 

Edited July 8, 2015 by Raachel2008

[2AT]

I'm glad Vanessa turned down the 'normal' life, she did at the end of season 1 too yeah? She doesn't want to be normal. Check your psychic hotline satan. Your info is outdated. I think Vanessa is walking a line in which she is her own kind of darkness. She used to fend off satan's evil with faith, with light but at the same time faith requires a kind of passivity, an acceptance. Being on your knees and praying and not spitting satanic verse that burst puppet's faces. I like it. Own your future Van, take it on your own terms. You have access to power, use it. Don't become all about it, don't let it define you since that would be just as bad as giving up your soul to one of the divinities. Use it to be you.

 

I'm on the verge of declaring Reeve Carney an unfit Dorian. Someone earlier in this thread likened Dorian to a mirror of whoever has his attention at the moment and that felt spot on but, for me, it isn't properly reflected in the acting. Writing yes, but not the acting. Capricious, amoral (as in lacking any kind of morals not being evil) immortal lusting for new sensations and experiences. He shows you what you want if you're interesting and new until he gets bored and leaves. He's not going to make a very good megalomaniac since he'll get bored halfway through, he's not doing it cuz he's got a grudge against humanity, it's just something shiny and new. Carney to me is functional whereas the rest of the cast communicate all the nuance their roles require he just ticks the boxes.

 

Not sure how I feel splitting up the cast and setting up multiple potential big bads for next season. For a how with such a small ep allocation you'd think they'd want to keep everything tight and focused. Dunno. Guess we'll see.

 

Also. Lyle. There better be more of the queen with lovely hair next season. In fact the show should just replace Vanessa with Lyle.

I love your post, Fredward! Can we please get your line "...she is her own kind of darkness" over to Stevie Nicks, because that needs to be the title track of her next album.

I give Reeve Carney a pass because my view of Dorian is that of (for lack of a better term that I hope does not offend) an overgrown frat boy. Carney has been giving me immortal 20-year old with no moral compass and all the money in the world realness, and I am here for it. Dorian is just not that deep, and he is going to get bored with Bronlily and her diabolical plans soon enough.

Is it crazy that I ship Vanessa/Caliban?

I cannot wait for season 3!

[absolutelyido]

a) V and E's interactions on the moors proved that they really get along wonderfully well. They showed the easy camaraderie and partnership one sees with happily married couples. And there's that other chemistry, of course.

I guess Vanessa's proposition to Ethan shows that she doesn't want (or think she needs) to be totally alone, but she's aiming lower than she deserves, just hoping for some company in the darkness. Sadder still, Ethan isn't even at the point where he can accept those crumbs. I totally understood why he didn't take or share comfort with Vanessa. He probably figured he was saving them both even more pain (plus, how on earth would he ever have walked away once they'd shaken the walls of Malcolm's Manse with their scorching Gothic lovemaking?). But still. Way harsh, Ethan. But nice "Dear Joan" letter, I guess?

 

I don't think Vanessa is aiming lower than she deserves, I think she is aiming for that happy life with Ethan on the moors. At one point this season, Vanessa made that comment that she wasn't meant for company. And when Ethan told her she could teach him about polite society in return for showing her how to shoot, Vanessa scoffed and made rather disparaging comments about having tea and small talk. I don't think she wants the perfect society family that hosts Sunday afternoon tea. I think she knows she is more suited to a life like she and Ethan had on the moors; just the two of them making a life living off the land. Or maybe that is just what I want for them. (I'm a hopeless romantic sap, I admit it!)

 

I'm not so sure about her wanting children really. If her children could have the perfect life portrayed in the fantasy, maybe. But I don't think she (or Ethan) would want to pass on the internal demons they both struggle with. 

 

Agree that Ethan is at the much sadder point in his life. Vanessa believes she deserves some happiness. Ethan doesn't believe he deserves any, so he couldn't let himself have the happiness he knows he could have with Vanessa.

 

I hope Vanessa and Ethan don't spend too much of S3 apart. (Like I said, I'm a hopeless romantic sap.) But this can't be the end of them. Vanessa rejected Ethan after they kissed in the rain. Now he has rejected her. Isn't that always the way before the couple eventually gets together? And, they didn't even kiss before Ethan left her. No story worth its salt would have two people in love separate permanently without a final dramatic kiss, right?

Edited July 9, 2015 by absolutelyido

[raven]

 

No story worth its salt would have two people in love separate permanently without a final dramatic kiss, right?

Right, right, right!  I'm not usually invested in TV relationships but they're so both so unusually pretty with great hair (until Ethan end of episode anyway).  Plus gothic, Victorian, moors, mist, werewolf and me = sucker for it all.  It doesn't help that I like both characters in all their messed up glory.  They can go to town for a poetry reading by Caliban and meet Mr. Lyle for tea afterwards.  Malcolm is trying to atone for his sins by taking Victor under his wing, they are traveling and both of them straightening out their messes.  Maybe we get one after-life shot of Sembene and Angeliquie in whatever version makes each of them happy.  Lily and Dorian, I don't know??

 

This is the only show I watch live, now at least I'll get to bed on time on Sundays :(

[spaceghostess]

I don't think Vanessa is aiming lower than she deserves, I think she is aiming for that happy life with Ethan on the moors. At one point this season, Vanessa made that comment that she wasn't meant for company. And when Ethan told her she could teach him about polite society in return for showing her how to shoot, Vanessa scoffed and made rather disparaging comments about having tea and small talk. I don't think she wants the perfect society family that hosts Sunday afternoon tea. I think she knows she is more suited to a life like she and Ethan had on the moors; just the two of them making a life living off the land. Or maybe that is just what I want for them. (I'm a hopeless romantic sap, I admit it!)

 

I'm not so sure about her wanting children really. If her children could have the perfect life portrayed in the fantasy, maybe. But I don't think she (or Ethan) would want to pass on the internal demons they both struggle with. 

 

Agree that Ethan is at the much sadder point in his life. Vanessa believes she deserves some happiness. Ethan doesn't believe he deserves any, so he couldn't let himself have the happiness he knows he could have with Vanessa.

 

I hope Vanessa and Ethan don't spend too much of S3 apart. (Like I said, I'm a hopeless romantic sap.) But this can't be the end of them. Vanessa rejected Ethan after they kissed in the rain. Now he has rejected her. Isn't that always the way before the couple eventually gets together? And, they didn't even kiss before Ethan left her. No story worth its salt would have two people in love separate permanently without a final dramatic kiss, right?

 

Hey, when it comes to these two characters, I've discovered that I'm the sappiest sap who ever sapped. I'd love to see them have that happy life together on the moors! No kids, though. Little ones would make them both too vulnerable to the wicked things I'm sure would periodically disrupt their idyllic life of spell casting, gardening, wood chopping, and waltzing gorgeously. 

 

Crossing fingers that their story will continue, and that they will be reunited not-too-late next season. And I do hope you're correct that Vanessa hasn't given up on happiness and love for herself. I think she knew Ethan would reject her proposal, but the fact that she even tried has to be a good sign, right? I do call bullshit on Ethan's dodging with "I have to think". He already had a plan; all that remained was for him to compose that heartbreaking letter.

[ganesh]

I hope next season has more Eva Green smiling. When she smiled in the "normal" life fantasy, I swooned. I'm going to have to buy one of those divans to watch the show next year because I turn into a delicate southern lady when she's on tv. If they go to live on the moors I might melt. 

 

So, they're doing the whole talking scene, and then Vanessa busts out the "know your master." I paused the show and said, "did she does tell Lucifer who his daddy is?" 

 

I do like how Mr. Lyle got the crack in about his hair before offing the witch. Then, "underneath this silken tresses I have good ears if you need to talk."

 

All I can think of when I see Victor is his "dainty man pain" that someone coined last year. It just cracks me up.

 

I suppose the "good guys and lady" had to have at least one death to make it count. I would have been disappointed had anyone died. The fact that it was Ethan doing it makes dramatic sense because they became friends. 

[LittleIggy]

Yeah, I don't get the thing about Bronilly and Calaban saying they are "immortal." As noted, Proteus was killed and I'm sure a shotgun blast to the head or a grenade would take care of them.

[ganesh]

Well, Victor shot Lily and nothing happened. Proteus was killed by Caliban, and literally ripped apart. So maybe they can only kill each other. 

 

A bullet to the head might not do anything than what we saw with Lily. I think that was the point of Victor shooting her. To show that Victor is now powerless to his creations. 

[dr pepper]

Is John Claire headed south? I guess it's too late in history to go north, as in the original Frankenstein, and meet up with an explorer looking for an opening into the hollow Earth.

[MsChipper]

"I think you are the most human man...I have ever known."

 

Gosh, that scene between Cali and Van broke my heart. It's the first time I shed a tear for this show!

 

How anyone can say that scene was boring is beyond me. That line where he says that dream of kinship with those unlike him was gone. It was so applicable to the both of them and yet at the same time, just when he'd given up on people, Van's kindness and words offered him just the kind of redemption and acceptance he was seeking all this time. It was just a very beautiful and heart breaking scene.

 

Both actors knocked it out of the park IMO.

 

I hope S3 is not going to dwell too much on the separation. And honestly, I don't see how Bronily and Dorian are going to be much of a match as far as villains go. I mean, compared to Satan and Dracula, they're just mean kids. I'm rather hoping that they'll give us a brand new famous Victorian villain like Dr Jekyll or the Mummy or the Invisible Man instead. :)

Edited July 9, 2015 by MsChipper

[SunDevil]

That ending was bleak. Although, I couldn't help chuckling as all the boat imagery had me thinking of the Lonely Island Boys "I'm on a boat".

[tennisgurl]

Sembene better come back as a zombie or a mummy or some such thing, even if we have to wait a little bit. Come one, he cant really be gone! Your better than that, show!

 

Other than that, this was a great season, filled with Gothic creepiness, awesome characters, and scorpions. And Mr. Lyle survived! Praise be!

 

I loved Victors reaction to Lyle asking him not to tell anyone about his jewishness, and Victor was just like "dude, I raise people from the dead and shoot drugs into my hand. Your secrets aint nothing". 

 

Vanessa and Ethan better not be separated for too long. They give me all the feels, and my feels need to be sated. 

[spaceghostess]

 

Can't wait to see who will play Papa Chandler/Talbot. Any bets?

 

Yay--I love fantasy casting!

 

My short list for Ethan's dad:

 

1. Sam Eliot (Justified convinced me he can play mean.)

2. Beau Bridges (Never gets to play mean, but he def. has the chops.)

3. Victor Garber (I know he plays everybody's dad, but c'mon.)

4. Tommy Lee Jones (If he's willing to slum it on TV)

5. Tom Selleck (Wait, don't leave! He's physically perfect for the role and he NEEDS to play a horrible person. But he's really busy, so maybe not.)

 

Whee, this is fun! More suggestions?

 

Vanessa and Ethan better not be separated for too long. They give me all the feels, and my feels need to be sated. 

This. They own my feels.

Edited July 9, 2015 by spaceghostess

[ganesh]

I'm buying a fainting chair next year before S3 starts. I almost twisted my back with all the swooning.

[Bec]

No simpathy at all for Victor. He reaped what he sowed and differently than others I don't believe he did it to help the Creature, he did it to save his ass. I've never been a fan of the character and quite honestly I don't think he is remotely as interesting as the people he interacts with.

I think it was a moment of (misguided) compassion that drove Victor to make Caliban a bride. For all Victor knew, if he pulled the trigger when he had a gun at Caliban's head, that would have been the end of that.

 

Victor totally does reap what he sowed. But he's relatively more likable compared to his book counterpart - okay that bar is set very low, but still. I don't recall book Victor ever being empathetic at all. Book Victor doesn't have show Victor's entertaining snark, either.

 

I was very surprised that Vanessa's 'dream life' included children.

When that little girl jumped onto Vanessa's lap, Vanessa had a look on her face like "what in the hell is this?" It was hilarious. And was the little boy wearing the same outfit little Victor was wearing in Victor's flashback to his childhood last season?

 

You know, I think the children interrupting her dream nookie with Ethan over that horses vs. hippopotami nonsense might have been what drove Vanessa to be all "Bitch, you don't know me! This isn't what I want!" at Satan.

 

Someone over on another forum called that her "rap battle with Satan". Haha! Very apropos.

 

The last time we heard "know your master" on this show, it was when Caliban was menacing Victor last season. Caliban and Vanessa really are meant to be BFFs.

 

Is it crazy that I ship Vanessa/Caliban?

Maybe Vanessa can give Caliban some sisterly pointers on how to properly interact with women. Victor also needs to take that course. Charm school for awkward dudes.

[ganesh]

Someone over on another forum called that her "rap battle with Satan"

 

This needs to happen. If Eva Green raps as Vanessa in an "epic battle" my brain will melt. 

[LittleIggy]

Well, Victor shot Lily and nothing happened. Proteus was killed by Caliban, and literally ripped apart. So maybe they can only kill each other. 

 

A bullet to the head might not do anything than what we saw with Lily. I think that was the point of Victor shooting her. To show that Victor is now powerless to his creations.

A gunshot to the head can seriously mess up a face. A shotgun blast to the face even more so. I certainly think they could be blinded, maimed, and/or burned.

[LittleIggy]

Yay--I love fantasy casting!

 

My short list for Ethan's dad:

 

1. Sam Eliot (Justified convinced me he can play mean.)

2. Beau Bridges (Never gets to play mean, but he def. has the chops.)

3. Victor Garber (I know he plays everybody's dad, but c'mon.)

4. Tommy Lee Jones (If he's willing to slum it on TV)

5. Tom Selleck (Wait, don't leave! He's physically perfect for the role and he NEEDS to play a horrible person. But he's really busy, so maybe not.)

 

Ian McShane; the uber-Bridges Bro. Jeff; Brian Dennehy

[spaceghostess]

I went with Beau instead of Jeff because (a) I find it difficult to get past Jeff's The Dude-ishness and imagine him in a menacing patriarch role (although he's so amazing, I've no doubt he'd rock it), and (b) he rarely (if ever?) does TV, while Beau certainly does.

 

Ian McShane -- yep, he'd kill it as Daddy Talbot. I'm still mourning Deadwood, so seeing him back in the Old West would be nice.

 

Brian Dennehy! Ah, now that's a brilliant stealth pick, right there. 

 

This game may well ruin me for whoever is cast.

 

 

[LittleIggy]

I went with Beau instead of Jeff because (a) I find it difficult to get past Jeff's The Dude-ishness and imagine him in a menacing patriarch role (although he's so amazing, I've no doubt he'd rock it), and (b) he rarely (if ever?) does TV, while Beau certainly does.

Have you seen "True Grit"? Jeff was awesome as Rooster in that. I always saw Sam Elliot as the Cowboy from "The Big Lebowski" (the Dude abides!) until "Justified" where, as you noted, he killed it as a villain (no mustache made him look extra creepy). Yeah, I was thinking of Al Swearingen with Ian McShane!

[iMonrey]

 

Word to whoever said that Reeve Carney is almost unfit to play Dorian. He is not a bad actor, far from it, but I don't think he has the gravitas to give Dorian that much needed darkness. It is like he plays darkness with such lightness that it is almost ineffective for me, even when he is killing people. Maybe they should have hired an actor a few years older? The lack of depth shows.

 

I think part of the problem is that they deliberately cast someone younger, he's probably exactly what they wanted looks-wise. The other problem is that they seemed to have a problem working him into the story this season. He was peripheral to most of the action until the last few episodes.

[Maum]

The last time we heard "know your master" on this show, it was when Caliban was menacing Victor last season.

Actually Ethan said it this season when he was telling Vanessa the story about riding his father's horse as a child.

[Maum]

I think part of the problem is that they deliberately cast someone younger, he's probably exactly what they wanted looks-wise. The other problem is that they seemed to have a problem working him into the story this season. He was peripheral to most of the action until the last few episodes.

I don't think it's the storyline. I thought his storyline with Angelique was relevant in the long run as it was meant to lull us in a false sense of romance. They were a sweet pair, he defended her honour, threw her a ball etc which should have made her murder a shock and a massive shift for the character. It should have been THE moment where we truly saw Dorian's amorality and coldness.

Instead there was no difference in range and paired with Lily who positively radiates menace he looks like a silly little boy. Through the two seasons all the characters have grown and gained in depth. The idea that Dorian is so fascinating that everyone, man or woman, falls under his spell just doesn't work for me. The actor hasn't grown in range at all unlike all the others.

[Byzantine]

I want to throw my vote in on Ian McShane as Daddy Talbot.   I can really see this since Ethan has painted him as mean and someone to fear.  Not that Mcshane is mean but he killed it as Al Swearingen on Deadwood....oh how I miss that show.

[LittleIggy]

I miss Deadwood, too, and speaking of which, Powers Booth would make another good candidate for Ethan's dad. Garret Dillahunt could even show up as Ethan's evil brother! :-)

Edited July 11, 2015 by LittleIggy