S02.E14: 6 Months Later

[seasick]

SiIlly me, but I thought being a caretaker in a relationship was a marker of co-dependency, and haven't we heard for the longest time that a co-dependent relationship is unhealthy?  Davina should have been given props for  making her boundaries explicit.

I hope you know I was being sarcastic when i said  Davina was cold  for not wanting to be Sean's caretaker.  I'm totally on her side on that one.  (my computer is running so slow--it so frustrating today!)

 

I remember the money talk that Davina and Sean had.  Sean said, in his typical declaration  manner.."you're more succesful than  I am"     She corrected him.  "i make more money, yes but..."  Sean says yes okay....  You  make more money  but ... they both agreed at Davina's suggestion that they are both successful..(money not being the judge of "success")  but she did indeed make more money.  She said she hoped that didn't cause a resentment, because it has with men in the past..

 

She makes good money..that's a fact. She says right there that it is not a problem for her to be making more money.. but the men often Do  have a problem with it.   And she does not allow Sean to claim she is therefore more  "successful" because of it and demean his own success in his chosen field..    (i am going to drop kick this computer)    It's taking so much time to read these post and respond.....  More to say  Love this forum .  I'll try later... what should be 5 minutes is eating up my whole morning AGHHH!    

.

[Wings]

It is hideous that Jaclyn and Jessica have to also have a divorce on record. I could really care less if Sean has it on his record. Move over DUI.

 

Wonder if the show pays for the divorces?

 

 

I don't see a big deal with having a divorce on your record (wherever that may be).  So they gave a stupid reality TV show a shot.  Easily explained to a future partner.  

 

The show pays for and arranges the divorces I would think.  

[rulesoftravel]

I think they do if it happens at 6 weeks, but possibly not if it happens after 6 months.     And I think they should be annulments.

[Stinamaia]

I don't think she regrets it.  I really do wonder how the July 13 court date will play out.  I can't help but think the reason the date was almost a month away from the Order of Protection date is because everyone is hoping this will die down and Ryan will learn not to run his mouth.

 

Jessica may not regret it now or in the future.    I was generalizing.   The court date strikes me as pretty quick given the press of court business.   It would be good for everyone if things could subside without litigation.  If I were Ryan, I would deny the allegations but agree to stay away from Jessica and her family because I had no interest in contacting them anyway.   

 

I think litigation just draws things out and keeps one dwelling on past events instead of going on into the future.   That's just my bias drawn from my experience of lawsuits.

I hope you know I was being sarcastic when i said  Davina was cold  for not wanting to be Sean's caretaker.  I'm totally on her side on that one.  (my computer is running so slow--it so frustrating today!)

 

I remember the money talk that Davina and Sean had.  Sean said, in his typical declaration  manner.."you're more succesful than  I am"     She corrected him.  "i make more money, yes but..."  Sean says yes okay....  You  make more money  but ... they both agreed at Davina's suggestion that they are both successful..(money not being the judge of "success")  but she did indeed make more money.  She said she hoped that didn't cause a resentment, because it has with men in the past..

 

She makes good money..that's a fact. She says right there that it is not a problem for her to be making more money.. but the men often Do  have a problem with it.   And she does not allow Sean to claim she is therefore more  "successful" because of it and demean his own success in his chosen field..    (i am going to drop kick this computer)    It's taking so much time to read these post and respond.....  More to say  Love this forum .  I'll try later... what should be 5 minutes is eating up my whole morning AGHHH!    

 

Oh, yes!   I kew you were being sympathetic with Davina, and I was chiming in.   I just couldn't see why the experts couldn't gently say to Sean that a marital partner should not become a caretaker -- you know, unless there was a serious illness etc.  

 

I have a friend whose husband has had one serious medical problem after another.  She tends to him after surgeries and is interested in medical interventions, but he is the one who manages his treatment, medicines, and regimens.  She does not get involved in being his daily caretaker.  In the meantime, he continues working and engages in many social activities and measures out his daily bundle of pills he must take and makes his own appointments.   She doesn't walk on eggshells around him, and he doesn't want her to be a mother hen either.  Nevertheless, he freely says he could never have found the strength to get through all of it without her support.   Big difference between being co-dependent and being supportive. 

[Wings]

In case you don't know about this, it is a thread about fixing this show.   

 

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/27900-fix-the-show/#entry1256644

[seasick]

I feel sad that the show is ending because I loved hanging out with all of you.  Wish I had found this forum at the beginning of the show   (but then I REALLY wouldn't have gotten anything done!!)    

I will for sure check in on the social media thread.   Maybe I'll see some of you on a different show thread.  Hope so!

 

I for one, am looking forward to Season 3 mostly because we can all start up again.  I really have had a ball with you guys. Thanks!

[Phoenix]

At the end of the show each person was asked to state what they had learned from the experience and Sean's response was this:  He said he now knows to stay within his own comfort zone...in reference to pursuing other relationships. So, what a catch he'll be some day as he safely lives his life within his own secure little zone.  And whenever he ventured away from this comfort zone, he would have panic & fleeing issues, with tears running down his face. 

 

He did receive votes for the person who cried the most this season.  It was a viewers choice question asking who cried more, Jessica or Sean.  They all voted Sean.

[Vinyasa]

That creep Sean has succeeded in portraying himself as sexualy disintersted since 'the first thing to go in times of stress and anxiety is sex'.

 

How can that be? He's Christen Grey sexual, after all.

[Liberty]

.. Sean's response was this:  He said he now knows to stay within his own comfort zone...in reference to pursuing other relationships...

 

Wonder if that creep Sean's comfort zone is the same as the basement in Ryan R's Mother's house. 

[Snarklepuss]

At the end of the show each person was asked to state what they had learned from the experience and Sean's response was this:  He said he now knows to stay within his own comfort zone...in reference to pursuing other relationships. So, what a catch he'll be some day as he safely lives his life within his own secure little zone.  And whenever he ventured away from this comfort zone, he would have panic & fleeing issues, with tears running down his face. 

 

He did receive votes for the person who cried the most this season.  It was a viewers choice question asking who cried more, Jessica or Sean.  They all voted Sean.

 

The only time I think Sean can feel (or act anything like) like a man is when he's in his "player" persona, which is his "comfort zone".  Otherwise when faced with a woman that actually has needs other than sex from him, he runs away in a panic.   I think Sean has gotten to an age where he truly wanted to become intimate and committed to a woman but he didn't realize until he got involved in the show how bad his phobia was about that.  I do think that Davina was way too strong willed and dispassionate for Sean even if he wasn't phobic, which only made his reaction all the worse.  Unfortunately, I think what Sean "learned" from this experience is that he doesn't really want a serious relationship.  He'd rather stay within his own little comfort zone of casual hook ups with no intimacy/commitment.  Very sad.

[Phoenix]

Wonder if that creep Sean's comfort zone is the same as the basement in Ryan R's Mother's house. 

 

Sean and Ryan R are both neurotically odd, maladjusted people, so yes their comfort zones are somewhat similar, but Sean is far more frail.  lol

The only time I think Sean can feel (or act anything like) like a man is when he's in his "player" persona, which is his "comfort zone".  Otherwise when faced with a woman that actually has needs other than sex from him, he runs away in a panic.   I think Sean has gotten to an age where he truly wanted to become intimate and committed to a woman but he didn't realize until he got involved in the show how bad his phobia was about that.  I do think that Davina was way too strong willed and dispassionate for Sean even if he wasn't phobic, which only made his reaction all the worse.  Unfortunately, I think what Sean "learned" from this experience is that he doesn't really want a serious relationship.  He'd rather stay within his own little comfort zone of casual hook ups with no intimacy/commitment.  Very sad.

That is a well thought out insight into Sean's issues.  You have a valid point.  I do still believe he may be bi or gay though and hasn't yet accepted it within himself because of his parents.....he seemed quite worried about what his parents thought about his MAFS choice.  If it weren't for the money factor, I am sure Sean would not have done the show...he would have listened to his parents.  So considering how weak he is, if he is bi or gay he may be too afraid to come out due to his parents thoughts on the lifestyle.  Many people do fear this situation as they come out to parents/family...sadly.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Phoenix

[Stinamaia]

All the analysis of Sean is sort of relying on his own statements about himself on TV.  I'm not even sure if what he says is true or if that's just how he chose to portray himself for the purposes of the show.  Certainly he looked a lot more confident during the show than he did at the decision day or reunion taping.   Davina said she never felt like she got the real Sean.   I'm pretty sure the experts didn't get the real Sean.   To me, Sean tried to tell stories about himself that would lead to people feeling sorry for him, but maybe he saw it more as a way to get sympathy from viewers and to create a character.   I don't really believe the comfort zone stuff.  It's possible that it is true, but it's also possible that it's just b.s.

[algebra]

This is a legal question: if the men never intended to stay married, does that mean their pre-nups were fraudulent and therefore invalid?

Can the women clean them out?

[Aethera]

We're all just speculating on such matters, but I'd say it's highly unlikely the women can 'clean them out'.

[zxy556575]

Can the women clean them out?

 

I'd like to see them try! No, really. Call Gloria Allred.

 

None of the guys have two beans to rub together, but it would keep this topic lively. ;)

[Waterlilly]

Probably the only one with any assets is Sean and I'm fairly sure he doesn't have anything she wants.

[Gigi43]

Morally what they did was shitty. But I couldn't get behind the girls cleaning them out for fraud or anything and I can't imagine a court would. They made the pre nups (assuming there are ones but I'd bet there are) without ever meeting the person for a reality show. I don't see that as fraud because the original agreement of marriage took place before they knew each other. For all we know before/at the time of the wedding the guys could have thought the girls could be in if to be on TV. They do bare some responsibility in their decision to marry a stranger, on TV. Also the guys could argue the "Experts"/show filled there heads with wrong ideas, which does have some truth to that I believe, so its not all their fault. The show committed the original fraud (along with putting health at stake with no STD testing), and continued their lies throughout.

If Jessica's claims about Ryan are true (and i do wonder just how true they are when the first one came before she baited him with the $100, sorry but its rubs me wrong she was afraid of him then but did that) then that's a different legal action of course. To be clear I can see Ryan muttering threats is that's terrible but I think the reunion flip out was one time too many for Jessica, I think she wanted to get back at him for all the times he was horrible to her and thought the reunion setting would make him " take it", which obviously back fired. Now that they have to go through with the divorce she doesn't want to deal with that behavior one more time and now does think he could do his yelling in any setting, but I'm suspect to how afraid she actually is. I'm really not defending him he cannot treat people that way and it was bound to get him in trouble eventually as it should, but I'm not so sure he's the kind of threat Jessica is claiming.

Though I wouldn't be shocked if production was in on the $100. Did anyone see her with something in her hand that whole time prior? Where did she pull it out from? She could have gone backstage or to a PA or something for a second and editing did its trickery of cutting it. I just can't put anything passed the show. But I still think Jessica would have resisted if she felt afraid of him.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Gigi43

[Waterlilly]

We have heard over and over that Jessica's problem is not communicating, but I feel like the problem is that both Jessica and Ryan have the same problem which is communicating effectively. Jaclyn communicates effectively, she states her feelings, a possible solution and tries to listen to the other person. Jessica and Ryan would share their feelings and then not listen. That seems to me to be immaturity. They fought like children.

I'm torn because they all should probably get off SM and go on with their lives, but I'm not ready to let them go;(

[Phoenix]

It is hideous that Jaclyn and Jessica have to also have a divorce on record. I could really care less if Sean has it on his record. Move over DUI.

 

Wonder if the show pays for the divorces?

I never thought Jessica was on the show for legitimate reasons.  She was acting through the entire season.  And...she is seeking an acting career. 

 

I bet the show does pay for their divorces...hope so.

[Passthepopcorn]

I don't know if I'm happy or not that I found this forum.  It's kept me entertained and fueled my crazy need for MAFS info.  But this gal has got to let it go!  I have spent far too much time thinking about this crazy show.  Dang.  :) 

 

The first thing I feel compelled to say is that the experts aren't chumps or idiots.  Even Dr. Cilona has a Ph.D. from an APA accredited school.  That's no easy task, even if it's Argosy.  The college I teach at doesn't have American Psychological Association accredidation and boy-howdy do we wish we did.  Schwartz is a Yale alum and Levkoff is an NYU alum.  Epstein is a Chaplain at Harvard, so he's doing perfectly fine as well.  I admit that as a Ph.D., I got a little wonky with the criticism of the experts, but last night you could see it on their faces, how disappointed and frustrated they were.  It became perfectly apparent that they were trying to still teach the participants how to be in any relationship, not just this one.  I totally agree with Levkoff that the participants failed the experiment, not the other way around. 

 

Oh to the dear Davina and Sean....  Davina, from the honeymoon, showed a bizarre need to have Sean intuit her thoughts and desires.  The infamous crying moment had him trying to make her laugh, I'm sure because he was uncomfortable with his new 'wife' crying for the first time.  As a nervous Nellie, he was trying to break the ice and it didn't work.  She was mad that he didn't guess what she was feeling or thinking. Could he have simply asked, "What's wrong?"  Sure.  He didn't.  And the reality is that she never offered to explain the tears herself.  I think Levkoff was on point to ask her about her own willingness to accept accountabillity.  I don't remember Davina really saying what she could've done better.  I'm all for being a strong woman, but sometimes it's not about being strong, it's about being obstinate.

 

And Ryan and Jess-- goodness gracious.  It really doesn't matter what kind of dress Jess was wearing, she desperately needs to mature.  Yes, does Ryan have some significant confidence/arrogance issues to work out?  Yes.  But her smashing of the watch and $100 dollar bill was just so petty.  Even as the experts were trying to teach how to behave, she retorted like a teenager, that she was pissed off.  Oil and water, those two.  Bless them both and let them find peace somewhere, anywhere.

 

Jac and Ry and Kev and Lo and Pep.  Dear Jaclyn, you feisty gal, you.  It's totally okay to use someone's full name.  I promise.  What a shocker this one was.  From all the preview footage, I would've never guessed the warmth that was still there between them.  They were the emblematic couple for the entire season-- folks who have all the potential in the world, sometimes just let the relationship they're in slip through the cracks.  They don't follow through and make the committment.  When I think about the first season, two of those couples were willing to do everything in their power to make it work.  It was exhausting to see them work so hard, but that exhaustion paid off.  Even the immature Cortney (I'm remember the death glare she gave Jason when he called her out on wanting to make memories), stuck it out and continually gave herself over to the 'experiment.'  Doug and Jamie had the ludicrous cigarette fiasco, but it never devolved into the $100 bill fiasco.  Oy vey.  These couples!  The experts can only do what they can do.  What was in the participants minds vs. their hearts was very, very different.  Bless the beasts and the children.  ...And me, because I'll be tuning in for season three.

 Agree with so much of this. I never got the viciousness toward the experts. If they make faces and show emotion, they are unprofessional. If they don't, then they don't care about the couples. There is only so much they can do. This is a reality show, I expect 50 % reality, 50% put things together in a way that make people watch.

Their fault is probably to have joined this show, and the same goes for the participants. It's not going to be serious and real from all angles. You can be serious and go with your best intentions, but then putting yourself in this context you are risking your reputation. You and your image will be manipulated and edited.

The real manipulators are the producers,and these guys don't show their faces.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Passthepopcorn

[algebra]

Maybe it's because my grandfathers were both professors, but I had so much exposure to academia that I am not impressed by anybody with a doctorate in social sciences. I didn't go to graduate school myself because after getting a bachelors in psych I concluded it was nothing but common sense and bullshit. I wanted a Real Job. Do you know what a Real Job is?

It's a job that if you don't know what you are doing and you fail, everybody knows it. There's no blaming anybody else, or unforeseen variables. You did it wrong, and everybody knows it.

The best thing about studying social sciences is that you can ace every course you take, and convince all your professors you are a genius, just by agreeing with everything they say. Even if what they are saying is utter nonsense, if you agree with it, they'll reward you with high grades.

The so called experts on MAFS aren't used to being called out on their incompetence.

The women of Season 2 have called them out. The fans have called them out. The participants didn't fail, the experts' matches sucked. The experts want to give the women Fs for not feeding their egos and buying their bullshit.

[crazychicken]

For me the lack of accountability on behalf of the experts (except Pepper) annoys me, they blame the participants for the failure yet selected three men that were not ready to be married. With 7 000 people to choose from surely there were people that were ready to be married yet they selected a man with known rage issues, a man living off is mother and another man that curls into a ball at a stiff breeze. I liked season 1 and even though Monet & Vaughn did not work out I could see that the couples were matched for a reason, Doug & Courtney both countered Jamie & Jasons issues and it worked fort them.

 

This season was just a total mess, should Jess have put up with the crap dealt by Ryan D just because the experts said they were a good match, nobody deserves to be berated like that. Ryan R ran home to his mum and repeatedly let Jac down, yet the experts still lectured her on giving him another chance. Sean got 'anxiety' and disappeared only to show up for filming. The woman were not perfect but this year they got dealt a dud hand and when the marriages failed they then got told they did not try hard enough.

 

When called out the producers and experts just go back to we did extensive checks and questionnaires yet all this did not pick up the men not being ready for marriage so it must be the participants fault. How about they should have picked people that were ready or provided support on how to be a good spouse.

[algebra]

My thoughts exactly.

[cherry slushie]

For me the lack of accountability on behalf of the experts (except Pepper) annoys me, they blame the participants for the failure yet selected three men that were not ready to be married. With 7 000 people to choose from surely there were people that were ready to be married yet they selected a man with known rage issues, a man living off is mother and another man that curls into a ball at a stiff breeze. I liked season 1 and even though Monet & Vaughn did not work out I could see that the couples were matched for a reason, Doug & Courtney both countered Jamie & Jasons issues and it worked fort them.

 

This season was just a total mess, should Jess have put up with the crap dealt by Ryan D just because the experts said they were a good match, nobody deserves to be berated like that. Ryan R ran home to his mum and repeatedly let Jac down, yet the experts still lectured her on giving him another chance. Sean got 'anxiety' and disappeared only to show up for filming. The woman were not perfect but this year they got dealt a dud hand and when the marriages failed they then got told they did not try hard enough.

 

When called out the producers and experts just go back to we did extensive checks and questionnaires yet all this did not pick up the men not being ready for marriage so it must be the participants fault. How about they should have picked people that were ready or provided support on how to be a good spouse.

I'm guessing, of those 7000 people to choose from, 90% were women, and the 10% of men who actually wanted to get married weren't good looking enough and/or out of shape.  They had to scramble to find men who would look good on TV, men who the brides would most probably be attracted to at first sight (sans Ryan R., although he's in good shape, clean cut. and not horribly ugly.)

[Xena1833]

Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet but i just want to acknowledge Ryans D's mother. She seemed genuinely pleased to have Jess as a daughter in law and the few clips that we saw them together they really seemed to have a positive relationship. Thats really hard to come by. To actually have a mother in law that you really get along with and is actually pleased that you are with her son! I just want to give her a shout out for that. Good on her!

Correct if me I am wrong but I think I heard Ryan R say in one episode that all his previous relationships were long distance relationships. If that is really true then its because he likes it that way. He never has to fully commit to being with that person on a day to day basis. I would assume that if anything gets serious he makes an exit. This would explain alot. He can still live at home, never have to deal with his mommy issues and have a relationship that never will go anywhere.

[kira28]

 

For me the lack of accountability on behalf of the experts (except Pepper) annoys me, they blame the participants for the failure yet selected three men that were not ready to be married. With 7 000 people to choose from surely there were people that were ready to be married yet they selected a man with known rage issues, a man living off is mother and another man that curls into a ball at a stiff breeze.

Totally agree with this! None of these guys were ready or wanted to be married.  I could make better matches by watching people in a bar or pulling names out of a hat.  Ryan R doesn't want to leave mommy's basement. He's not attractive and he's dull. I feel terrible for Jac because she bonded with his niece and she truly put an effort into the relationship and seemed to enjoy being married! Ryan couldn't wait to run home. The fact that he didn't even contact Jac in four months or make any effort speaks volumes to his character. Why not just tell her you want a divorce and let her move on? He's just a shitty person.  Sean, well there's nothing I can say that wasn't already said. Sean sees himself totally different than he actually presents himself. Narcassist maybe? Even though Davina is high maintenance she seems to have a lot to offer the right person, Sean not so much.  He's too emotionally immature, too needy, too wrapped up in his own head. The experts should have NEVER matched him with Davina who specified she would not leave Manhattan. Davina needs someone who will treat her like a princess and Sean wants to be treated like a little princess as well so that match would never have worked lol.

[rulesoftravel]

 

 

The so called experts on MAFS aren't used to being called out on their incompetence.

The women of Season 2 have called them out. The fans have called them out. The participants didn't fail, the experts' matches sucked. The experts want to give the women Fs for not feeding their egos and buying their bullshit.

They were so unprofessional it was almost criminal.   The show put these women in danger.   The fact that none of them has an STD does not let the show and the "experts" off the hook for not testing the men.   

[Waterlilly]

Kira, lol. You made my morning!

[algebra]

Saying these guys weren't ready to be married implies that you think someday they will be. Reminded me of when Monet said Vaughn would be a good husband for somebody someday.

As if!

[Snarklepuss]

Maybe it's because my grandfathers were both professors, but I had so much exposure to academia that I am not impressed by anybody with a doctorate in social sciences. I didn't go to graduate school myself because after getting a bachelors in psych I concluded it was nothing but common sense and bullshit. I wanted a Real Job. Do you know what a Real Job is?

It's a job that if you don't know what you are doing and you fail, everybody knows it. There's no blaming anybody else, or unforeseen variables. You did it wrong, and everybody knows it.

The best thing about studying social sciences is that you can ace every course you take, and convince all your professors you are a genius, just by agreeing with everything they say. Even if what they are saying is utter nonsense, if you agree with it, they'll reward you with high grades.

The so called experts on MAFS aren't used to being called out on their incompetence.

The women of Season 2 have called them out. The fans have called them out. The participants didn't fail, the experts' matches sucked. The experts want to give the women Fs for not feeding their egos and buying their bullshit.

 

I agree with you about the experts on this show but I don't see how bashing an entire profession is OK.  For example, how about if I went on about how much BS a degree in journalism is because most journalists slant the news to their opinions or to sell their stories, and expect others to believe them as fact?  I'm pretty sure I could expect a few people to tell me not all journalists are like that.  Perhaps you weren't really cut out for Psychology or "the social sciences".  I know a lot of people who think it's bullshit.  Maybe it is to them because they just don't get it.  I don't go around bashing physicists or chemists when I myself am not either of those things and don't have the judgment to know enough about their subjects or the value of their subjects in the scheme of things to pass judgment on them.  Oh, and BTW, my Chemistry teacher in HS was a complete idiot and passed me even though I technically failed the course by one point just because my father was his commander in the army years before.  I didn't ask for him to do it and didn't know it at the time, but he later admitted he passed me because of it.  And BTW, this was at THE most prestigious science high school in New York City.  At that time I thought Chemistry was THE most horrible subject out there.  I realize today it's just that it wasn't for me.

 

Actually, though, the so-called "experts" on this show are not practicing counseling or therapy.  They're engaging in matchmaking.  I think the link between matchmaking and therapy is not necessarily as strong as people might assume it should be.  Just because they might help people in their relationships doesn't mean they know how to match people nor that they should know.  Nobody's even brought up that issue before.  Maybe it's too much to ask of a therapist.  These people are part of something that is supposedly a "social experiment".  I'm not sure any of them would have claimed to be a great matchmaker before going on this show.  What I hate about them is that they are very happy to take the credit when the matches work out but very quick to blame the couples when they don't.  I agree that they're not used to being called out on their incompetence, but if they didn't put themselves up as so-called matchmaking experts no one would have done that.  They might be very good as therapists, I really don't know that nor can I claim to know.

 

Another thing - I have a Master's Degree in Counseling Psych. and I am pretty sure my grades were based on far more than just "agreeing with my professors".  And if what they were saying was "utter nonsense" I don't think I would have stayed in the program.  I like to think I know the difference between wisdom and nonsense.  I have certainly called the experts on this show out on their nonsense.  I had a great respect for my professors precisely because they didn't spew garbage.  I can't attest to any other program, though.  I do know that most of therapists I've gone to have been disappointing at best.   I have only met a couple of therapists that I think are worth the ink on their diplomas.  So I get being cynical about it, but I can't agree with bashing the entire profession.  I have seen people get a lot out of therapy.  I once did myself with a very good therapist.

 

I am pretty sure that being a good therapist involves having good self awareness, some real depth and the ability to empathize with and understand people.  I also think therapists should be ethically minded and emotionally mature.  Those are qualities that actually can't be taught in school.  Most of them you either have or don't have and school can only help you hone them.  Unfortunately there are a lot of people who go to school for and become therapists that don't have the raw material.  They are either too dysfunctional to see people clearly or ethically compromised or both.  I can't speak to what goes on in other schools 25 years later, but where and when I went those people were usually weeded out before they got very far.   That's because the head of the program took no BS from anyone.  He didn't care if only a few people completed the program.

 

I also don't know if I agree with you that in a "real" job you can't blame anyone else.  I think anyone can blame the world, their coworkers, their subordinates, the weather, you name it, when they screw up and just like with these bozos, it wouldn't prevent the rest of the rational world from seeing through it.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Snarklepuss

[The Evil One]

My issue with the experts is not with degrees or credentialing, or the profession. I think a good therapist can provide a world of self reflection.

But a good therapist is having a relationship with his/her patient. Again, I am a season 1 viewer, and I feel like they reached out more because they knew the experts and had shared their lives and baggage with them. I also felt like they gave more insight/feedback rather than the generic "you were both bullied" they gave Sean/Davina, to explain someone like Jamie and Doug - doug came from a traditional home, Jamie had a terrible childhood and desired that stability. It made more sense. Instead of matching twins, it was complements.

The only person who reached out was Sean and sorry, he is expert in therapy speak. As for Sean's anxiety, as someone who has suffered it's very real and debilitating effects...if you want something bad enough...you do it. You may white knuckle it, but if it really matters...

[Snarklepuss]

My issue with the experts is not with degrees or credentialing, or the profession. I think a good therapist can provide a world of self reflection.

But a good therapist is having a relationship with his/her patient. Again, I am a season 1 viewer, and I feel like they reached out more because they knew the experts and had shared their lives and baggage with them. I also felt like they gave more insight/feedback rather than the generic "you were both bullied" they gave Sean/Davina, to explain someone like Jamie and Doug - doug came from a traditional home, Jamie had a terrible childhood and desired that stability. It made more sense. Instead of matching twins, it was complements.

 

I'm not really defending the experts here but perhaps if the matches really were their clients they would have known more about them and theoretically could have made better matches.  But they couldn't have them as clients because it would technically violate client/patient confidentiality to do so.  So they were working off of much less information than they could have if that were the case.  People have accused the show of cutting corners and time this season so perhaps in season 1 they had more time to interview and get to know them before matching them.  I can't see any therapist who knew about this season's mens' issues would have let them squeak through if they were the only ones making the decisions.  The choices may not have been the experts' fault but for them not to throw the producers under the bus for rushing them or usurping their decision making is making them look very bad.  They've probably signed non-disclosure agreements so they're afraid to do that lest they be sued or fired from the show.  Plus they are on record telling the world that they alone were responsible for the choices of the matches, so they think they're protecting their reputations by holding to that argument.  Meanwhile, they are only making themselves look worse.  They are in a no-win situation.  Even if they did admit that they allowed themselves to be compromised it would make them look bad.  But according to my lawyer husband, they would suffer less damage to their professional reputations at this point if they stopped protecting the producers, plus they would likely be able to get out of some of any accused responsibility by a court.  Of course this bunch is not ethical enough to risk losing their gravy train.  So they deserve whatever they get.  Except for Dr. Pepper, of course.  I still think she is more ethical than the other two.

[MissScarlett]

I'm not really defending the experts here but perhaps if the matches really were their clients they would have known more about them and theoretically could have made better matches.  But they couldn't have them as clients because it would technically violate client/patient confidentiality to do so.  So they were working off of much less information than they could have if that were the case.  People have accused the show of cutting corners and time this season so perhaps in season 1 they had more time to interview and get to know them before matching them.  I can't see any therapist who knew about this season's mens' issues would have let them squeak through if they were the only ones making the decisions.  The choices may not have been the experts' fault but for them not to throw the producers under the bus for rushing them or usurping their decision making is making them look very bad.  They've probably signed non-disclosure agreements so they're afraid to do that lest they be sued or fired from the show.  Plus they are on record telling the world that they alone were responsible for the choices of the matches, so they think they're protecting their reputations by holding to that argument.  Meanwhile, they are only making themselves look worse.  They are in a no-win situation.  Even if they did admit that they allowed themselves to be compromised it would make them look bad.  But according to my lawyer husband, they would suffer less damage to their professional reputations at this point if they stopped protecting the producers, plus they would likely be able to get out of some of any accused responsibility by a court.  Of course this bunch is not ethical enough to risk losing their gravy train.  So they deserve whatever they get.  Except for Dr. Pepper, of course.  I still think she is more ethical than the other two.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head here regarding the "experts".

 

When you said:  "if the matches really were their clients they would have known more about them and theoretically could have made better matches." ... this is really the heart of the matter and precisely *why* the matches did not work this season.  We've all heard that they took a lot more time to vet the potential candidates for season 1.  I think they were much more in-tune with those candidates.  They actually knew them in some true capacity.  

 

The psychological tests and instruments can only take these "experts" so far.  They have to get to know these people and in my opinion, I think they have to open themselves up to becoming their therapists.  Only then, will they be able to truly understand the candidates and the matches that they have made.  If they had done that, I firmly believe that none of these couples would have happened.

 

This season, i've noticed that the "experts" relied heavily on what the candidates "say" in order to make the matches.  Take Sean, for instance.  His "player past" wasn't very far behind him when he got on this show.  He almost had a kid with someone who was only a "hookup" to him.  I'm sorry but actions speak louder than words.  If they were looking past the words... then he would not have made it on the show.

 

As we saw this season, people will say almost anything to get on television.  With this show, It's not hard to wonder what these "experts" might want to hear from people who want to be on this show.  No one is going to come to them and say "I don't know whether or not I want to be married.  All I know is that I really want to be on t.v. and I am open to the possibility of meeting my spouse in this venue."

[Nancybeth]

Has it ever been made public how long it took them to cast Season 1 vs. Season 2?  Obviously they had a much bigger pool of contestants to wade through, and I get the sense they were in a rush to get it on the air.  I definitely feel like the experts didn't know the Season 2 candidates as well.  They seemed to match on more "superficial" things or simple statements...i.e., Sean was bullied, Davina was bullied, they are both sexual "late bloomers," BAM, match.  Ryan D. loves his family, Jessica loves her family, BAM, they'll be perfect together.

 

It seemed like in Season 1, they somehow tapped into things the contestants maybe didn't even know or realize about themselves that led to their matches (particularly with Jamie and Doug).  I think they should have spent longer putting the couples together and getting the show on air.

[Snarklepuss]

I think you hit the nail on the head here regarding the "experts".

 

When you said:  "if the matches really were their clients they would have known more about them and theoretically could have made better matches." ... this is really the heart of the matter and precisely *why* the matches did not work this season.  We've all heard that they took a lot more time to vet the potential candidates for season 1.  I think they were much more in-tune with those candidates.  They actually knew them in some true capacity.  

 

The psychological tests and instruments can only take these "experts" so far.  They have to get to know these people and in my opinion, I think they have to open themselves up to becoming their therapists.  Only then, will they be able to truly understand the candidates and the matches that they have made.  If they had done that, I firmly believe that none of these couples would have happened.

 

This season, i've noticed that the "experts" relied heavily on what the candidates "say" in order to make the matches.  Take Sean, for instance.  His "player past" wasn't very far behind him when he got on this show.  He almost had a kid with someone who was only a "hookup" to him.  I'm sorry but actions speak louder than words.  If they were looking past the words... then he would not have made it on the show.

 

As we saw this season, people will say almost anything to get on television.  With this show, It's not hard to wonder what these "experts" might want to hear from people who want to be on this show.  No one is going to come to them and say "I don't know whether or not I want to be married.  All I know is that I really want to be on t.v. and I am open to the possibility of meeting my spouse in this venue."

 

Thank you, my next sentence would have been that the "instruments" could not do the matching all by themselves.  No psychologist would ever make their assessments of a person based purely on "instruments" and maybe one or two interviews.  There are no "instruments" that can read between the lines and figure out what is truth from BS no matter how hard they tried to tell us that.  The test's attempts to "fool" people who misrepresent themselves are lame and easily gotten around by smart people (how they do it is reword similar questions to try to trip up liars and if there are inconsistencies they cancel out other contrary responses).  The fact that the experts have spent so much time defending those "instruments" and telling everyone how good and reliable they are only makes me more convinced that the bulk of their decisions (if not all of them) were made using those instruments, which means they didn't arrive at their decisions through enough real life contact with the candidates.  This would include more than just a couple of interviews from which they buy a whole lot of lies and misrepresentation from people who just want to get on TV. 

 

I also think that in the first season of a lot of reality shows, they pick relatively "real" people who don't come from the same stock as those who apply after a show has already had a first season.  These days the second season of anything is far more full of fame whores, staged scenes and other things that take away any authenticity the show once had in the name of amping up the drama.  I've seen it again and again and it's totally ruined some shows for me altogether.  I don't think these experts anticipated that (or if they did, they thought they'd never be "outed" for it), and now they are forced to act like everything about the show is completely legit. when it isn't just because they've sworn themselves under contract not to divulge such show "secrets".  The only thing is they end up saying things that make themselves look even worse to anyone who knows better.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Snarklepuss

[rulesoftravel]

I think calling Jamie relatively real is a tad overstated.  Veteran of two other reality shows where she went looking for "love."   Varying mileages, but to me the phony gene is large in that one.

 

But I 100% concur with your opinion on the "experts."

Edited June 23, 2015 by rulesoftravel

[joobie]

Rewatched the reunion again and I just have to say that I don't think the experts were trying to force Jaclyn to stay in that relationship. After every clip they showed of Jaclyn and Ryan they both were beaming ear to ear and saying stuff like awwww and isn't that romantical honey yada yada yada. They genuinely looked happy to see each other and super happy to relive their screen time and they were both extremely nice and supportive of one another. Ryan even kept inching his way over towards her. I personally think the experts saw that in person and saw the genuine affection and didn't want her to throw it away if it could be something real and fantastic given the time. I'm not sure they knew Ryan didn't contact her in the last 4 or so months but even still he seemed super sincere. Especially at the end when he said C'mon Jaclyn give me another chance. I believed him too. Jaclyn never gave any indication that she didn't want to be with him. She would just point out things she would've done for him and how he wasn't interested. She never said she wasn't still interested or she moved on or anything like that.

 

Sean and Davina - wish the picture would've fallen on Sean. And Davina, if you have deal breakers already before even meeting a potential spouse you are putting your needs ahead of marriage and making yourself a priority. Solid relationships should be on even footing and open to compromises and solutions that accommodate both. Action speak louder than words. Don't ask Sean if he wants you to come down on the weekends he was working just inconvenience yourself and go. Davina was definitely promised a super Chicago hot dog with all the fixings but ended up with the wiener water left in the pan. But she definitely did not give 100% so she is also to blame for the failure. Just not as much as the wiener water. 

 

I still feel horrible for Ryan D and dislike Jess. She is so disingenuine. (I know that is not a real word but it describes her perfectly for me) Any time Ryan was going to give his side she would pipe in with don't believe him he's a liar. He's a liar. See what I put up with and so on. We never got to hear why they weren't together on Valentine's Day she wouldn't let him talk. He even said he was trying to be nice and why did she want to portray him that way. He wouldn't even call her out for smashing his watches. She called herself out and then tried to belittle him with and what did Jess do? Jess bought him a new watch that you are probably wearing right now. And I firmly believe she did use the word degenerate because that word was to intricate for the Ryan we saw all season. She should've kept in character and called him a scumbag gambler or dirtbag gambler because then maybe I would have believed her. Which also makes me believe Ryan about the piercing argument because he said this is what I said and she said no you called me trashy. And she was adamant about it. As far as Dr. Pepper apologizing she said she wanted to give Jess someone that would make her flourish and she was sorry he wasn't that for her as she believed in the beginning he would be.She is also the one to call her out on her stupid $100 stunt so I think she saw a different side.  The experts knew Ryan had a temper. I believe they thought Jess didn't have a voice and was a doormat until they saw that interaction and realized she played a much bigger role in that relationship tan she led on. In all the only negative thing Ryan said about her was he didn't think she was authentic. Epstein at the end wished Ryan a happy life without telling him he needed to change. He just said we talked about what being a strong man is. I think Ryan was dealt a bum deal and if he was acting I fell for it hook line and sinker.

 

Glad to get that all off my chest and not have to rewatch it anymore.

[JapMo]

 

Rewatched the reunion again and I just have to say that I don't think the experts were trying to force Jaclyn to stay in that relationship. After every clip they showed of Jaclyn and Ryan they both were beaming ear to ear and saying stuff like awwww and isn't that romantical honey yada yada yada. They genuinely looked happy to see each other and super happy to relive their screen time and they were both extremely nice and supportive of one another. Ryan even kept inching his way over towards her. I personally think the experts saw that in person and saw the genuine affection and didn't want her to throw it away if it could be something real and fantastic given the time. I'm not sure they knew Ryan didn't contact her in the last 4 or so months but even still he seemed super sincere. Especially at the end when he said C'mon Jaclyn give me another chance. I believed him too. Jaclyn never gave any indication that she didn't want to be with him. She would just point out things she would've done for him and how he wasn't interested. She never said she wasn't still interested or she moved on or anything like that.

 

I believe Jaclyn and Ryan made some kind of pact on or directly after the honeymoon not to trash each other on camera and try to remain friends no matter what. And they really played it to the hilt, didn't they? Just until the experts tried to get them to take another chance...THEN we saw the masks start to come down. I have posted many times (I have no life) that I felt Jaclyn was faking it and trying to make the viewers but most of all herself believe she had real feelings for Ryan. Ryan flat out lied about having any feelings for her. And the proverbial sh*t hit the fan at the Decision show. Maybe not cringeworthy like JesRy, but I remember saying to myself as Jaclyn said he wasn't there for her and she wasn't sure if she could ever forgive him....'when did that happen? I don't remember seeing that.' I disagree with you that they have genuine affection for each other. Jaclyn was just keeping her end of the bargain, but she is PISSED at him and it is going to eventually come out. I truly believe Ryan was completely turned off by Jaclyn on the honeymoon and basically felt he could never stay married to someone with her very strong, very in-you-face personality. While I have respect for the two not slinging mud at each other, I'd rather the truth unfold during the season rather than what we thought was happening all along wasn't even remotely true.

[joobie]

Clearly I have no life either. I just wanted to say I have no idea if there was genuine affection or not from Ryan and Jac in real life other than what they portrayed and at the reunion they acted very loving towards each other. If I was an expert on the show I would've wanted them to fight for each other too. My opinions are only based on what I saw on the show and not what may be out there in SM or in gossip rags or magazine items. I bought into their storyline of at least being friends and seeing where it would go. And maybe it was just because they didn't try to damage each other like the other two. Maybe if they had been on season 1 I wouldn't have fallen for their authenticity and would've seen through their masquerade. I too wish they would depict the couples as they really are without all the editing for drama. Who knew they never even spent the night together?.

[ChaChaSlide]

Ive maintained something was wrong with this show ever since Season 1. I firmly believe that Jason should not have been casted and paired with someone while his mother was dying. Thats hard to go through as it is, but in front of the cameras with a person you don't even know that well? And it wasn't fair to Courtney to marry a guy who would soon be going through the grieving process, which is hard on even veteran relationships. To be thrown into that kind of emotional turmoil with someone you barely know is inhumane. I mean luckily for them things have worked out so far (who knows whether its due to the money or not), but it was still extremely risky for the experts to take a wager on him being ok.

[kira28]

I think Jac convinced herself she did have feelings for Ryan. She hadn't slept with a guy in two years, hadn't been in a relationship for seven  years and she's paired with this guy (who she thinks is hideous at first, and I don't blame her!) who she eventually bonds with and he starts looking attractive to her. Meanwhile Ryan is missing the comfort of mommy's basement and the big bad real world and Jac scares him. He's just a douchebag. I feel bad for Jacquelyn.

[rulesoftravel]

 

I'm not sure they knew Ryan didn't contact her in the last 4 or so months

Then they are deaf as well as dumb, because I believe she said it-that they had had no contact for months.

Edited June 26, 2015 by rulesoftravel

[aven]

The premise of the show drew me in, and the personalities kept my attention.  It's surprising that in Season 2, all 3 men were such immature, flawed persons.  They must have all put on quite an act to convince the experts that they were ready for marriage, when, in fact, not one of them was anywhere near the level of maturity, responsibility and commitment marriage requires.  All 3 were tremendous disappointments, with Ryan R being the worst of the group--he was still lying through his huge teeth about wanting Jaclyn in his life at the "6 Months Later" show.   With the exception of Jessica who lowered herself to Ryan D's level with her $100 bill moment of madness, the women seemed more willing to take on the daunting responsibility of marriage.  Jaclyn, of course, is the most attractive of all six participants with her insights, her intelligence, her sense of humor, her great energy, her sense of fashion and finally, her beauty.  She lit up the whole set on the "6 Months Later" show, just as she had lit up Ryan's home on Christmas Eve.  She did not deserve Ryan R, and I hope she finds a truly fine man of integrity in the near future.  If it was anything, MAFS was certainly entertaining. 

[JapMo]

 

Clearly I have no life either. I just wanted to say I have no idea if there was genuine affection or not from Ryan and Jac in real life other than what they portrayed and at the reunion they acted very loving towards each other. If I was an expert on the show I would've wanted them to fight for each other too. My opinions are only based on what I saw on the show and not what may be out there in SM or in gossip rags or magazine items. I bought into their storyline of at least being friends and seeing where it would go. And maybe it was just because they didn't try to damage each other like the other two. Maybe if they had been on season 1 I wouldn't have fallen for their authenticity and would've seen through their masquerade. I too wish they would depict the couples as they really are without all the editing for drama. Who knew they never even spent the night together?.

 

Oh I hope you don't think I was criticizing your opinion. If we all felt the same way, this board would be pretty dull. I stuck up for Ryan D even though his behavior was despicable at times, and a lot of posters would question my feelings. But for JacRy, I always felt Jaclyn's first instinct that she wasn't attracted to him at all was solid.

[JapMo]

 

The premise of the show drew me in, and the personalities kept my attention.  It's surprising that in Season 2, all 3 men were such immature, flawed persons.  They must have all put on quite an act to convince the experts that they were ready for marriage, when, in fact, not one of them was anywhere near the level of maturity, responsibility and commitment marriage requires.  All 3 were tremendous disappointments, with Ryan R being the worst of the group--he was still lying through his huge teeth about wanting Jaclyn in his life at the "6 Months Later" show.   With the exception of Jessica who lowered herself to Ryan D's level with her $100 bill moment of madness, the women seemed more willing to take on the daunting responsibility of marriage.  Jaclyn, of course, is the most attractive of all six participants with her insights, her intelligence, her sense of humor, her great energy, her sense of fashion and finally, her beauty.  She lit up the whole set on the "6 Months Later" show, just as she had lit up Ryan's home on Christmas Eve.  She did not deserve Ryan R, and I hope she finds a truly fine man of integrity in the near future.  If it was anything, MAFS was certainly entertaining.

Good post. I'm with you in that Ryan R was the biggest surprise and disappointment. He pretended to be onboard with so much, and even looked extremely nervous during the decision period that he was worried Jaclyn was going to say divorce when he's said stay married. Now I think he was only worried because he thought she might doublecross him and rat him out.  

[Bella]

Regarding Ryan R, what angered me was that he'd posted jokes on social media, teasing that they were still together.

 

Maybe when Jamie and Doug divorce, we can fix her up with Ryan R, since they both play the producers' game so well.

[rulesoftravel]

Shall we start the countdown now?

[joobie]

The premise of the show drew me in, and the personalities kept my attention.  It's surprising that in Season 2, all 3 men were such immature, flawed persons.  They must have all put on quite an act to convince the experts that they were ready for marriage, when, in fact, not one of them was anywhere near the level of maturity, responsibility and commitment marriage requires.  All 3 were tremendous disappointments, with Ryan R being the worst of the group--he was still lying through his huge teeth about wanting Jaclyn in his life at the "6 Months Later" show.   With the exception of Jessica who lowered herself to Ryan D's level with her $100 bill moment of madness, the women seemed more willing to take on the daunting responsibility of marriage.  Jaclyn, of course, is the most attractive of all six participants with her insights, her intelligence, her sense of humor, her great energy, her sense of fashion and finally, her beauty.  She lit up the whole set on the "6 Months Later" show, just as she had lit up Ryan's home on Christmas Eve.  She did not deserve Ryan R, and I hope she finds a truly fine man of integrity in the near future.  If it was anything, MAFS was certainly entertaining. 

I think all 3 women were flawed as well but Jac at least kept it classy.

[ChristmasJones]

For anyone who needs a MAFS fix and hasn't seen it yet- you can watch episodes 3 - 6 (finale) of MAFS Australia here: http://filehoot.com/?k=married+at+first+sight+au&op=catalogue 

 

Given how much filler is in this show, you should be able to piece together episodes 1 and 2

[Lion18]

Did anyone see this on Twitter?

@LIRealEstate01: Ryanranellone IG if you're annoyed with me don't follow me :)