S05.E09: The Dance Of Dragons

[BigBeagle]

Note to self: Don't watch next season's ninth episode.

 

Seriously, though, what can they possibly do to shock us now? Roast a bunch of puppy dogs? I know there's worse things than Shireen burning at the stake, but I'll be damned if I want to watch it.

 

I love this show so much, but sometimes I think GRRM and the showrunners are just messing with us, seeing how much we'll take.

[Chris24601]

Re: worse things than burning Shireen alive next year... I dunno I think they're pretty much running up against the edge of what it'd be legal to even film in terms of 'more shocking.' They already sorta ran up against that with the non-nude brothel due to Maise's age when they were filming this season.

Basically, they're almost going to have to go shocking awesome (ex. Hardhome battle and Drogan) instead of shocking gruesome if they want to keep shocking in a way they can still show on television.

[FishyJoe]

I agree with you entirely here. Stannis is a dead man walking, but one who could still play a pivotal role in the coming struggle. He's still one of the best generals alive in Westeros, with a functioning army. I do hope that Stephan Dillane's performance here gets some appreciation at Emmy Time because I thought it was an incredible performance.

 

Is he really one of the best generals? He beat Renly, but with magic. He lost at Blackwater. He won at the wall, but only after the Night's Watch wore down the Mance's army. His response to Ramsey's attack was to beat or execute (I can't remember which) his own men for failure, then kill his daughter for magic. Have we seen anything on the show that has demonstrated he is a great leader or tactician? 

[Hecate7]

I suspect killing Mel with his bare hands isn't going to be an option, but Stannis should try it and find out, and then use what he learns to move on to more effective methods of killing her. Mel herself hinted to Selyse that her flesh is either glamored, reanimated, or stolen. And we've seen that the Faceless Men can change their appearance. I have the feeling that Mel's true appearance is nothing like what we see, and that it will take more than arrows or strangulation, or any kind of poison at all, to kill her. Most likely killing her will involve first interfering with her bath supplies, and then doing something really weird to her.

[wayne67]

Babies to turn into new White Walkers, now that Craster's dead?

 

That's an interesting thought. Do you think the White Walkers picked up some live babies from Hardhome to turn into new White Walkers ? I mean zombie babies aren't really worth the bother combat wise but more White Walkers would be of use after they lost a couple (one to Sam and one to Jon) in the North. There were bound to be some babies lying around from the people who didn't want to go on the ships and considering the estimated amount of people there would have been at least 100 babies about.

 

100 new White Walkers ? Though we don't know how long it takes for a WhiteWalker baby to become an adult Whitewalker or even if it's necessary for them to mature before summoning the dead.

 

On an unrelated note I do wonder what the plan is with Essos. Will Dany just appoint someone of a non slavery based lineage as the Warden of the East while she's gone ?

[Philbert]

 

Is he really one of the best generals? He beat Renly, but with magic. He lost at Blackwater. He won at the wall, but only after the Night's Watch wore down the Mance's army. His response to Ramsey's attack was to beat or execute (I can't remember which) his own men for failure, then kill his daughter for magic. Have we seen anything on the show that has demonstrated he is a great leader or tactician?

 

We didn't see it but have a couple of conversations regarding him defending Storms End against the Tyrell's for over a year against overwhelming odds, when most other men would have quit. There are other examples but I can't go into them here cause....No Book Talk. Granted being one of the better generals alive isn't as great a thing as it used to be since Robert, Ned, Jon Arryn, Robb and several other soldiers are dead but I still rank him as one of the best in Westeros.

[Constantinople]

Note to self: Don't watch next season's ninth episode.

 

Seriously, though, what can they possibly do to shock us now? Roast a bunch of puppy dogs?

Just the opposite.

Ramsay pets a puppy for the entire episode who occasionally licks Ramsay's face.

No threats, no Ramsay monologue on how he'll turn the dog into a killer.

Just a boy and his dog basking in each other's affection.

[izabella]

I suspect killing Mel with his bare hands isn't going to be an option, but Stannis should try it and find out, and then use what he learns to move on to more effective methods of killing her. Mel herself hinted to Selyse that her flesh is either glamored, reanimated, or stolen. And we've seen that the Faceless Men can change their appearance. I have the feeling that Mel's true appearance is nothing like what we see, and that it will take more than arrows or strangulation, or any kind of poison at all, to kill her. Most likely killing her will involve first interfering with her bath supplies, and then doing something really weird to her.

 

Maybe he could try burning Mel alive.

Edited June 11, 2015 by izabella

[Unknown poster]

We didn't see it but have a couple of conversations regarding him defending Storms End against the Tyrell's for over a year against overwhelming odds, when most other men would have quit. There are other examples but I can't go into them here cause....No Book Talk. Granted being one of the better generals alive isn't as great a thing as it used to be since Robert, Ned, Jon Arryn, Robb and several other soldiers are dead but I still rank him as one of the best in Westeros.

He also crushed the Iron fleet, maybe the most feared navy in Westeros, during the GreyJoy rebellion.

[Calamity Jane]

I also want Stannis to defeat the Boltons at Winterfell and just erase them from existence.

 

I think the most fitting 'punishment' for Stannis will be simply discovering that he isn't the one true king, destined to save them all, and he murdered his darling daughter for nothing. I believe that would be enough for him to kill Mel with his bare hands. I'd find that immensely satisfying. :)

 

The thing that really ticks me off is that even if Mel were right (I'm assuming she's not) and this is a necessary sacrifice, would it kill her to look SAD at having to do this? Even if killing a kid saves the world, the normal reaction should be regret/sadness/sympathy at the required sacrifice. But instead, that fucking cow stands there, smug and smiling, while a child burns alive and screams in agony and fear, and it just pisses me off no end. That shit ain't right. No one should practically REJOICE at Shireen's burning.

 

I had so hoped that the whole 'burn your daughter' thing was a test. That if he capitulated, he wasn't worthy or whatever but that if he refused, he was. But I guess that's not happening. :(

I was overcome by the feeling that Melisandre was actually out to eliminate all Baratheons, so now there's just Stannis left to get rid of.... If that's not her plan, wow, you'd think it was, wouldn't you? 

Edited June 11, 2015 by Calamity Jane

[Philbert]

 

He also crushed the Iron fleet, maybe the most feared navy in Westeros, during the GreyJoy rebellion.

 

 

Well I wasn't going to mention that but yeah...and he was Robert's Master of Ships (kind of like the Admiral of the Fleet) for at least 10 years so was responsible for all naval operations in Westeros.

[annsterg]

<snip>

 

At Castle Black, did Stannis never ask Jon about secret tunnels at Winterfell? Many medieval castles had them, to escape a siege.

If Stannis is a such a superb commander, you would think he would have explored this possibility. It would give him a chance to launch a counter-raid against the Boltons, useful now that his siege engines have been burned.

 

 

 

We did not see him talking to Jon about Winterfell's defenses but I am going to assume that they discussed it; Stannis was there for days and it would be something a smart military commander (as they keep telling us he is) would do. And we know there IS a secret tunnel or entrance/exit for Winterfell. Theon knows there is one as well. We just don't know who, if anyone, knows WHERE it is. I very much want the tunnel to come into play somehow (I'm a little obsessed with secret rooms/passages).

[Unknown poster]

Well I wasn't going to mention that but yeah...and he was Robert's Master of Ships (kind of like the Admiral of the Fleet) for at least 10 years so was responsible for all naval operations in Westeros.

I don't see why you wouldn't. That's been mentioned on the show on more than one occasion. (His role on the small council however, was not.)

[Anela]

Stannis should have burned; I was also thinking about his own King's blood. What a bunch of BS. 

 

Hopefully, Dany will release the other dragons, and have a purge of her own (those masks make me think of that movie). 

[Philbert]

 

I don't see why you wouldn't. That's been mentioned on the show on more than one occasion. (His role on the small council however, was not.)

 

It's actually mentioned on the Season One Viewers Guide on HBO's website, which admittedly isn't technically the show but it's not the books either....and I assume the HBO viewers guide is show cannon.

[wayne67]

I'm reminded of a scene early on in season 4 where Dany and her crew of Unsullied and co hang out outside the walls of Mereen and she tells Jorah that he is her "most trusted advisor, my most valued general and my dearest friend" and I'm reminded of why Dany was so hurt by his betrayal and why it took so long and so much conflict for her to find it in her heart to forgive him.

Edited June 11, 2015 by wayne67

[Kite]

Who in Westeros doesn't know about the twincest?

That's easy, Tommen and Myrcella.

I agree that Dany has been written with some sexism, in that she falls under one of the limited "powerful woman" tropes somewhat.

I'm actually confused by whether we are supposed to root for Dany. To me she comes off as an imperious dictator, though with noble intentions, but then I don't really like monarchies or absolute power. Anyway, she's sure pretty to look at and has kickass fashion and dragons.

The moral of the story to me seems to be sometimes that "power corrupts" just like in the real world but other times we have storybook heroics and heroes to relieve us from the grimdark realism. Stories have to have some plot satisfaction unlike most of reality, but the reeeeaaalllliisssmmm can get in the way of that, so it becomes its own shocking point. GoT ends up a bit confused about what it's trying to say.

I liked that Dany held Missandei's hand. A rare moment where women have some affection and solidarity with each other.

I had assumed that Shireen wouldn't die because she had some special properties endowed to her by mysteriously surviving the magical grey scale illness, and her story wasn't done yet. Also she may have been impervious to fire. Apparently not.

Josie and the Pussysnakes lol, I've found the way they've been written on the show as extremely sexist - silly ridiculous rebellious teenage girl trope to a T. With bonus sex!

Assume Jon wanted the Wildlings to meet the Night's Watch and be assured of the truth of a truce, and also as a display to the Night's Watch.

Selyse - agree that she did not really care for Shireen, was prepared to let her die, but the visceralness of seeing the one she once cradled and breastfed was a shock and calling at the moment of truth.

People liked Stannis? To me he was always the man without charisma or true wisdom, an end justifies the means kinda guy with a huge stick up his arse. "Stannis" always made me think of "stannous" ie tin, ie tinny, metallic, the Tin Man without a heart. Burning his daughter just seems so sad, so very very Shakespearean.

Maaaaan, security sucked at that stadium. Seemed like storytelling convenience for me, considering the terrorist threat they knew they faced.

[paigow]

They were also both bisexual and polysexual (enjoying the intimate company of group)- and everyone's (publicly) hetero in KLanding.

Dorne likely invented reality theater events:  "Royalty Wife Swap", "Big Bastard" & "The Amazing Races"

 

ETA: Hell's Brothel, Masterpimp, Madam Nightmares

Edited June 11, 2015 by paigow

[terrymct]

I rewatched the episode last night.   I know that Dany flying on Drogon was supposed to be the high point at the end of the show, but it didn't balance out Stannis allowing Melissandre to burn Shireen.   When Dany flew off, my thought wasn't "OMG, this is so awesome!".  It was "So, she's hauling a$% and just leaving Tryrion, Meliandre (her assistant, can't spell her name for the life of me), Ser Friendzone (aka Patient Zero of the Mereen greyscale epidemic), and the Unsullied there to be killed by the remaining Sons of the Harpy?"   Yeah, bully for you Dany.   Something did occur to me.  Is the state of her dragons supposed to represent the state of her power or leadership skills?   Early on with Drogo, she was a girl just figuring out how to live in world of the Dothraki.   After she emerged from the fire with the dragons, she started being more of a real leader.  In Mereen, she was a stronger leader but felt constrained (two dragons in the dungeon and one off who knows where).  In this last scene with Drogon flying in to save the day, is the strong Dany finally born?  Hopefully she'll get those other two dragons out of the dungeon.  I don't know why she has to chain them in the dark, except as a symbol.  Find a nice area, an open plaza in town or field adjacent to town and chain them in the fresh air.  Toss them sheep regularly.  Talk with them.  Don't create psycho uncontrollable dragons by abusing them.

 

The CGI for the fighting forum/pit were fine overall, as was Drogon when he was on the ground protecting Dany.  But on second viewing, the CGI of Dany flying was really kind of bad.  It looked like something you'd have seen back in the 80's.  I wonder why they flubbed that so badly.

 

I still don't understand why Jon Snow and Stannis' fleet didn't sail SOUTH of the Wall before disembarking.  Yes, it's to allow them to have a tense moment as to whether Ser Alister would open the gate, but it's stupid.

 

Stannis is still dead to me.  That whole thing did NOT improve on viewing a second time.  I had a few thoughts, though.  First, this really has to break the bond between him and Davos.  There is no way they can keep the two of them together without violating everything they've established about Davos.   Second, why is Melissandre's God of Light so different than the God of Light of the priest with the Brotherhood Without Banners?  The Brotherhood's priest was much kinder and was about bringing people back from the dead, not sending them on an express train to meet the God of Light.  I wonder if it's going to come out that she's been perverting the God of Light faith and misinterpreting badly what she's supposedly seeing in the flames.   She certainly didn't see Ramsay and his 20 guys coming, did she?   Why would a powerful god need to have a little girl burned in order to help his supposed choice as leader for the 7 Kingdoms?  Melissandre's god is a vengeful, petty god.  The Brotherhood priest's god is more caring and powerful.   How much actual magic have we seen Melissandre pull off?  The smoke baby.   The deaths of all the leech cursed men came about in ways that fit in with what passes for regular nasty culture in Westeros.  No magic about their demises at all.   Stannis' punishment for burning his daughter alive is that he's going to find out he's been following the orders of a warped and nasty woman who was just plain wrong.

 

edited because I forgot to close a set of parentheses.

Edited June 11, 2015 by terrymct

[NoWillToResist]

I was overcome by the feeling that Melisandre was actually out to eliminate all Baratheons, so now there's just Stannis left to get rid of.... If that's not her plan, wow, you'd think it was, wouldn't you? 

 

I would kind of love that. It's a brilliant strategy. Sacrifice all your blood relatives so that you can ascend the throne! Never mind about heirs or a line of succession. Kill 'em all! It's what God wants. Cersei would weep at the simplicity of the plan. :)

 

I'm just kind of bummed that no one is all "any God that needs me to brutally murder my daughter in exchange for some nebulous 'help' isn't a God I'm interested in honouring."

 

When Dany flew off, my thought wasn't "OMG, this is so awesome!".  It was "So, she's hauling a$% and just leaving Tryrion, Meliandre (her assistant, can't spell her name for the life of me, Ser Friendzone (aka Patient Zero of the Mereen greyscale epidemic), and the Unsullied there to be killed by the remaining Sons of the Harpy?"   Yeah, bully for you Dany.   

 

Yeah, I get that Dany was their ultimate target, but you'd think that they'd still kill her friends/advisors/protectors once the dragon is out of their way. Did they see Drogon, shrug, and go "oh. Never mind then. We'll just...be on our way..."?

 

 

this really has to break the bond between him and Davos.  There is no way they can keep the two of them together without violating everything they've established about Davos.

 

I will call a veritable mountain of bullshit if Davos doesn't cut ties with Stannis over this. I almost don't want Davos to find out what happened because I think his reaction will break my heart.

[wayne67]

Yeah, I get that Dany was their ultimate target, but you'd think that they'd still kill her friends/advisors/protectors once the dragon is out of their way. Did they see Drogon, shrug, and go "oh. Never mind then. We'll just...be on our way..."?

 

 

Well from the last shot it looked like there was 10 or so Sons of Harpy alive by the time Drogon flew out there with about 8 unsullied guarding Jorah and Daario who are good fighters themselves. Most of the Sons of Harpy were either killed or scattering during that whole burning/ripping apart thing that Drogon did.

 

Considering that the Sons of Harpies motives are super unclear. For all we know their mercernaries hired by the Masters in this city or other cities or even the Qarth wizards solely to sow chaos in Dany's reign. Whatever their motives are, they'd probably be shaken by a dragon attack and be rethinking their life goals and may not wish to reengage with the remaining people as its likely all the noise and chaos will have the Second Sons or the Unsullied arriving soon. It's far better for them to get out of sight and lay low until things settle and they can plan their next ambush.

[Chris24601]

I was overcome by the feeling that Melisandre was actually out to eliminate all Baratheons, so now there's just Stannis left to get rid of.... If that's not her plan, wow, you'd think it was, wouldn't you? 

Actually, this line of thought just gave me a bit of a chill... what if its not Baratheons she's out to get rid of? Theoretically part fo the Barotheon claim to the throne was that they've got a bit of Targaryan blood in their ancestry. I'm thinking back to something Mel said to Shireen WAY back when about there only being two gods and that the world was actually a Hell in which man was trapped.

 

Basically, I'm now wondering if Mel isn't deliberately trying to sabotage things because she WANTS the Walkers to win because when they kill everyone then everyone is free of Hell and the best way to do that is to kill off the "bloodline of dragons/fire" from which some prophecy or another says the Chosen One will arise. For added conspiricy theory throw in that Mel comes from Essos where the Sons of the Harpy are also religious fanatics trying to wipe out the last known Targaryan. Stay on that rowboat Gendry... you may be our last hope.

 

Its probably just my overactive imagination at work, but yeah... I almost have to think that she's setting up Stannis to eventually need to be burned as well.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Chris24601

[Conan Troutman]

Well from the last shot it looked like there was 10 or so Sons of Harpy alive by the time Drogon flew out there with about 8 unsullied guarding Jorah and Daario who are good fighters themselves. Most of the Sons of Harpy were either killed or scattering during that whole burning/ripping apart thing that Drogon did.

 

Yeah, Drogon did a good job there. There weren't many left alive and the remaining few just tried to get their own asses to safety after Dany was gone. If I were one of them, I'd do the same. I wonder if that's the last of them: It seems that most or all of them were in the arena or around blocking the exits - maybe the Unsullied/Second Sons rounded them up after that. I guess we'll find out Sunday.

 

I'm actually confused by whether we are supposed to root for Dany. To me she comes off as an imperious dictator, though with noble intentions, but then I don't really like monarchies or absolute power. Anyway, she's sure pretty to look at and has kickass fashion and dragons.

 

My impression is that TPTB are trying to make us root for her, but also giving us hints that maybe, we should think about that again. I don't think it's a coincidence that they're showing us the burning of a child, only to follow that with another couple of live burnings. Sure, those guys were bad, but can you really justifiably be happy that another few dozen people have been burned alive after that scene? Then we had the burning of that noble a couple of weeks ago, who may have been a harpy or not or maybe some bad slaver or maybe some of the more moderate breed, the point is we don't know for sure if he deserved it and neither does Dany. There are some parallels between Dany and Stannis in that they both have a very black and white world view, including a the end justifies the means morality. They're both sure they're fighting for the greater good, but are they really?

I like Dany and she's an interesting character, but much like how I never could root for Stannis with that red witch on his side, I can't really root for Dany as long as she's using her dragons against people and not purely on the WW and their Wights.

 

Re: The secret tunnels of Winterfell: I don't think they could be of any use for an attacking force.They're probably very small, so that just one man and a wheelbarrow can fit through - that's all you really need to sneak someone out or sneak food in. If Stannis were to send a thousand men through those tunnels, the Boltons would just have a hearty laugh and then slaughter them all one by one as they come out, until the tunnel is clocked with dead bodies. I'm not sure if they know about them, but since that's probably a common thing, they should at least be out looking if there are any.

I'm sure they'll come into play somehow, but more in the way of someone sneaking out. As for how Stannis wants to defeat the Boltons, well, he's been promised a miracle, so Mel better deliver. 

[NoWillToResist]

My impression is that TPTB are trying to make us root for her, but also giving us hints that maybe, we should think about that again.

 

/snip/

 

There are some parallels between Dany and Stannis in that they both have a very black and white world view, including a the end justifies the means morality. They're both sure they're fighting for the greater good, but are they really?

I like Dany and she's an interesting character, but much like how I never could root for Stannis with that red witch on his side, I can't really root for Dany as long as she's using her dragons against people and not purely on the WW and their Wights.

 

Stannis and Dany are very similar to me insofar as they both seem to think the Iron Throne is theirs by "right". And I simply do not agree with that. I don't care if you're a sadistic prick or the most decent person in the world, if you think you're entitled to something just because of your name, then you can just fuck right off.

 

How many people have died because of all these people coveting the most uncomfortable piece of furniture known to man? Bah. Let the throne go to someone who ISN'T actively trying to get it. They will probably be the best person for the job.

 

Much as Jon Snow generally bores me, I think he's probably the best man for the job so far. He's not ambitious or religious; he's humble and decent; he's not selfish or desperate for status or creature comforts; he tries to think logically and not make knee-jerk reactions.

 

I say make him king, Tyrion the Hand of the King, and put Brienne in charge of the Kingsguard.  A bastard, an imp and a 'beast' would rule King's Landing with fairness, intelligence and honour.

Edited June 11, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[Conan Troutman]

Ha, forgot about the entitlement part! Yeah, you're right, that's another knock on both.

 

Agreed about Jon, he's not the most interesting character ever, but certainly the easiest to root for right now. And now we should all stop jinxing him.

[JillPole]

why is Melissandre's God of Light so different than the God of Light of the priest with the Brotherhood Without Banners?  The Brotherhood's priest was much kinder and was about bringing people back from the dead, not sending them on an express train to meet the God of Light.

They’re the same god. When they met during the Gendry selling debacle, they made it clear that they are both priests of the same thing, from the same school. Melisandre seemed really amazed and (maybe?) a little jealous of the Brother’s powers and connection to the lord to be able to actually bring people back to life. If I remember correctly, he said his backstory was that he was a terrible priest who didn’t really believe and who drank too much, but then Beric died and he was so upset that it just… happened. Melisandre seemed really wowed by this. So I think she might not be nearly as powerful as she wants everyone to believe, but I do think the gods are the same and are for real. I thought it was so interesting that the Brotherhood priest’s power is so much greater because he was motivated by friendship for Beric. He can do great things because of that. Meanwhile, Melisandre doesn’t care about people and burns wee girls alive, and is jealous of the power the Brotherhood priest has.

 

Speaking of motivations and religious fanatics, I’m hoping hoping hoping that is where we are going with the King’s Landing plot. I’m hoping that, at the end of the day, the High Sparrow decides that, even though homosexuality is ‘bad’, falling in love with someone (ie. Renly) isn’t the worst thing you can do. And even though perjury is bad, wanting to save the brother you love isn’t the worst thing. They are spoiled, ambitious brats, but they aren’t bad people. Meanwhile, most of the bad things Cersei has done have come from horrible, terrible motivations. I hope he makes that distinction. But given that the show ACTUALLY burned a little girl alive at the stake this week, I’m not holding my breath for anything good to happen ever.

 

it didn't balance out Stannis allowing Melissandre to burn Shireen.   When Dany flew off, my thought wasn't "OMG, this is so awesome!".  It was "So, she's hauling a$% and just leaving Tryrion, Meliandre (her assistant, can't spell her name for the life of me), Ser Friendzone (aka Patient Zero of the Mereen greyscale epidemic), and the Unsullied there to be killed by the remaining Sons of the Harpy?"   Yeah, bully for you Dany.

I watched it last night, too, and this is EXACTLY how I felt. To a tee. I was still destroyed, and the most feeling I could summon up about the whole sequence was, “What about Tyrion and Missandei & Co?” Ugh. Also, and this is wholly unfair because it’s all about my own preferences, and nothing to do with the show… But I’ve never really been that interested in the idea of Dany flying her dragons. I know they’re HER dragons, and it was her inevitable Targaryan destiny that we’ve been building to the entire time, but meh. I really like her, and root for her, and love her story, but for non-dragon-riding reasons. She has been playing the pretty princess image for too long for me to think of her like all the awesome histories Shireen and Arya love so much. I know it's a little random, but I am and have only ever been here for Bran flying the dragons. Ever since his paralysis + magic was diagnosed, I’ve been thinking it was even more his destiny than hers somehow. Where we left him last confirmed it. I know he’s offscreen right now training to be able to do it one day, but after the Shireen scene and after last week’s zombie attack, I really could have used a little of the hope that Bran represents. To me, he is the clear savior of the whole story, even though I’m the only one who loves his plot.

 

Olly needs to stop going about glaring forebodingly. He is going to do something terrible to someone I love, I know it. Stop it, Olly.

 

I love Doran. GRRM really loves his cripples, bastards and broken things. They seem to be the only ones with real plot armour, so I’m hoping(!!!) that he will survive at least a little while longer. Absolutely everything else about the entire Dorne plot can go, though. The Sand Snakes are really terrible, acting wise, writing wise, personality wise. I hate them. I think Ellyria would have made more sense if they'd built this aspect of her personality at all last season. I spent a whole season seeing her only as Oberyn's pretty lady, and all of a sudden she's all deadly and... it was like she got a personality lobotomy. I'm still adjusting, a whole season later. Myrcella's actions are and behaviors are totally reasonable, but something about her doesn't fit the show. She feels like she stepped out of Mean Girls and into Westeros. Jamie is just... there. Tristane is fine, but I need to see more. Bronn and Doran are the ones holding this together. 

Edited June 11, 2015 by JillPole

[RadiantAerynSun]

I'm curious how that plays out. I think Stannis has to defeat the Boltons, or at least weaken them considerably, because they would be in a very stable position otherwise, at least they wouldn't have to fear a threat from any army, not even Littlefinger's. But I kind of doubt we get so see the resolution this last episode, there seems to be too much going on in the other stories that there won't be enough screen time for a big battle sequence, so more Boltons next year, ugh. The only chance is Brienne or Sansa/Theon making short work of both Boltons, but that's not going to happen on this show. And if it does, Mel will sell it as a goddamn miracle.

 

Oh man, now I am worried that IS what's going to happen, Brienne will somehow stealthily dispose of the Boltons, and Melisandre will take it as a sign that the burning of Shireen was effective. Then we just need to burn Selyse, and marry Stannis off to Sansa and... gahhhhhh. Oh wait at least Brienne still wants to kill Stannis.

 

 

There was a lot of stupidity to go around that arena. No weapons check, the queen's body guards watching the sport rather than the crowd for threats against the queen, the victor keeping his back to the remaining survivor, the Harpies advancing one at a time on Dany's group...

 

We kept screaming at the TV for him to turn around and brain the guy before he got back up, I did NOT want another Oberyn situation.

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

The thing that really ticks me off is that even if Mel were right (I'm assuming she's not) and this is a necessary sacrifice, would it kill her to look SAD at having to do this? Even if killing a kid saves the world, the normal reaction should be regret/sadness/sympathy at the required sacrifice. But instead, that fucking cow stands there, smug and smiling, while a child burns alive and screams in agony and fear, and it just pisses me off no end. That shit ain't right. No one should practically REJOICE at Shireen's burning.

 

If she truly believes in her religion, she probably believes Shireen is going to a "better place" or some such nonsense. People in the real world have killed their own children, without being seemingly upset, believing they had spared them from a worse fate...

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Basically, I'm now wondering if Mel isn't deliberately trying to sabotage things because she WANTS the Walkers to win because when they kill everyone then everyone is free of Hell and the best way to do that is to kill off the "bloodline of dragons/fire" from which some prophecy or another says the Chosen One will arise. For added conspiricy theory throw in that Mel comes from Essos where the Sons of the Harpy are also religious fanatics trying to wipe out the last known Targaryan. Stay on that rowboat Gendry... you may be our last hope.

 

Hmmm interesting, perhaps she is not TRULY a red priestess but is just masquerading as one. Thus her need for a "bag of tricks" like she showed off to Selyse in S4. Perhaps her amazement at Thoros' abilities was because she, herself, is cynical about the faith knowing she has to fake everything, and she is amazed the power is actually real for some. Perhaps she is messing with Stannis not to propel him towards victory but to distract from the real prophesied "savior". If everyone is backing a false savior then there is no one to fight with the true one and beat back the White Walkers if for some reason she is on their team.

 

I'd have to go back and rewatch her scene with Thoros to decide how plausible this idea seems. I can't remember exactly how surprised she was to learn of his abilities.

[MrWhyt]

 Second, why is Melissandre's God of Light so different than the God of Light of the priest with the Brotherhood Without Banners?  The Brotherhood's priest was much kinder and was about bringing people back from the dead, not sending them on an express train to meet the God of Light. 

 

You mean two practitioners of the same religion have different attitudes and values? That never happens. < /sarcasm >

[proserpina65]

The thing that really ticks me off is that even if Mel were right (I'm assuming she's not) and this is a necessary sacrifice, would it kill her to look SAD at having to do this? Even if killing a kid saves the world, the normal reaction should be regret/sadness/sympathy at the required sacrifice. But instead, that fucking cow stands there, smug and smiling, while a child burns alive and screams in agony and fear, and it just pisses me off no end. That shit ain't right. No one should practically REJOICE at Shireen's burning

 

Yeah, it was the smiling that made it all the more horrible.  I'm hoping that Melisandre gets to personally find out if fire is indeed the purest death.

[paigow]

Where is the Westerosi Bill Maher when ya need him? The Iron Throne occupied by an atheist would return balance to the universe.

[ChicksDigScars]

So. I have never watched Game of Thrones. I DO watch Veep, however.  I dozed off during the Veep credits this past Sunday and woke up during the second showing of Game of Thrones. What did I wake up to? The screams of a fucking 10 year old girl being fucking burned alive. 

 

Yeah, thanks for that. Nightmares for days. And cementing my feeling that I won't be binging this fucking show any time soon. Holy hell. 

[Calamity Jane]

They’re the same god. When they met during the Gendry selling debacle, they made it clear that they are both priests of the same thing, from the same school. Melisandre seemed really amazed and (maybe?) a little jealous of the Brother’s powers and connection to the lord to be able to actually bring people back to life. If I remember correctly, he said his backstory was that he was a terrible priest who didn’t really believe and who drank too much, but then Beric died and he was so upset that it just… happened. Melisandre seemed really wowed by this. So I think she might not be nearly as powerful as she wants everyone to believe, but I do think the gods are the same and are for real. I thought it was so interesting that the Brotherhood priest’s power is so much greater because he was motivated by friendship for Beric. He can do great things because of that. Meanwhile, Melisandre doesn’t care about people and burns wee girls alive, and is jealous of the power the Brotherhood priest has.

 

Speaking of motivations and religious fanatics, I’m hoping hoping hoping that is where we are going with the King’s Landing plot. I’m hoping that, at the end of the day, the High Sparrow decides that, even though homosexuality is ‘bad’, falling in love with someone (ie. Renly) isn’t the worst thing you can do. And even though perjury is bad, wanting to save the brother you love isn’t the worst thing. They are spoiled, ambitious brats, but they aren’t bad people. Meanwhile, most of the bad things Cersei has done have come from horrible, terrible motivations. I hope he makes that distinction. But given that the show ACTUALLY burned a little girl alive at the stake this week, I’m not holding my breath for anything good to happen ever.

 

I watched it last night, too, and this is EXACTLY how I felt. To a tee. I was still destroyed, and the most feeling I could summon up about the whole sequence was, “What about Tyrion and Missandei & Co?” Ugh. Also, and this is wholly unfair because it’s all about my own preferences, and nothing to do with the show… But I’ve never really been that interested in the idea of Dany flying her dragons. I know they’re HER dragons, and it was her inevitable Targaryan destiny that we’ve been building to the entire time, but meh. I really like her, and root for her, and love her story, but for non-dragon-riding reasons. She has been playing the pretty princess image for too long for me to think of her like all the awesome histories Shireen and Arya love so much. I know it's a little random, but I am and have only ever been here for Bran flying the dragons. Ever since his paralysis + magic was diagnosed, I’ve been thinking it was even more his destiny than hers somehow. Where we left him last confirmed it. I know he’s offscreen right now training to be able to do it one day, but after the Shireen scene and after last week’s zombie attack, I really could have used a little of the hope that Bran represents. To me, he is the clear savior of the whole story, even though I’m the only one who loves his plot.

 

Olly needs to stop going about glaring forebodingly. He is going to do something terrible to someone I love, I know it. Stop it, Olly.

 

I love Doran. GRRM really loves his cripples, bastards and broken things. They seem to be the only ones with real plot armour, so I’m hoping(!!!) that he will survive at least a little while longer. Absolutely everything else about the entire Dorne plot can go, though. The Sand Snakes are really terrible, acting wise, writing wise, personality wise. I hate them. I think Ellyria would have made more sense if they'd built this aspect of her personality at all last season. I spent a whole season seeing her only as Oberyn's pretty lady, and all of a sudden she's all deadly and... it was like she got a personality lobotomy. I'm still adjusting, a whole season later. Myrcella's actions are and behaviors are totally reasonable, but something about her doesn't fit the show. She feels like she stepped out of Mean Girls and into Westeros. Jamie is just... there. Tristane is fine, but I need to see more. Bronn and Doran are the ones holding this together. 

I so agree about Myrcella!  On the second time watching, it struck me even harder how 21st century she looked and acted compared to the others in the room.  Not sure if it's the actress or the writing, but it jarred. 

[Conan Troutman]

Oh man, now I am worried that IS what's going to happen, Brienne will somehow stealthily dispose of the Boltons, and Melisandre will take it as a sign that the burning of Shireen was effective. Then we just need to burn Selyse, and marry Stannis off to Sansa and... gahhhhhh. Oh wait at least Brienne still wants to kill Stannis.

 

Only that Brienne's idea of stealth is probably to knock at the door, politely ask for entrance because she's sworn to protect Sansa, then mow down their entire army before splitting the two Bolton suckers in half. Then again, she's badass enough to actually pull that off...

[NoWillToResist]

I love Doran. GRRM really loves his cripples, bastards and broken things. They seem to be the only ones with real plot armour, so I’m hoping(!!!) that he will survive at least a little while longer.

 

I'm thinking it's along the lines of "if one of your senses go, the others get stronger". :)

 

So, those with physical or societal failings make up for it in other ways...Doran is a cripple but wise and fair; Tyrion is an imp but smart and entertaining; Varys is  a eunuch but he's smart/cunning and generally decent; Brienne is a misfit among womankind but she is strong and incorruptible; Jon is a bastard but he's decent and honorable.

 

With these as examples, yeah, young and crippled Bran may just go on to win the Iron Chair when all is said and done. :D

Edited June 11, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[Calamity Jane]

And by the way, WHERE IS VARYS? 

[paigow]

Only that Brienne's idea of stealth is probably to...

send Podrick to the door posing as a flaying tool merchant with free samples. Then kill the Boltons while they are distracted / negotiating.

[NoWillToResist]

And by the way, WHERE IS VARYS? 

 

I like to think that, after losing Tyrion, Varys just said "fuck all y'all, I'm out" and just headed south on his own. :)

 

I'm sure he can find a nice little villa in the sunshine, away from all the drama and angst...

Edited June 11, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[Timetoread]

My impression is that TPTB are trying to make us root for her, but also giving us hints that maybe, we should think about that again. I don't think it's a coincidence that they're showing us the burning of a child, only to follow that with another couple of live burnings. Sure, those guys were bad, but can you really justifiably be happy that another few dozen people have been burned alive after that scene? Then we had the burning of that noble a couple of weeks ago, who may have been a harpy or not or maybe some bad slaver or maybe some of the more moderate breed, the point is we don't know for sure if he deserved it and neither does Dany. There are some parallels between Dany and Stannis in that they both have a very black and white world view, including a the end justifies the means morality. They're both sure they're fighting for the greater good, but are they really?

I like Dany and she's an interesting character, but much like how I never could root for Stannis with that red witch on his side, I can't really root for Dany as long as she's using her dragons against people and not purely on the WW and their Wights.

 

I mean, and I haven't read the books so it's only my feeling, isnt that the point of all of this is - that there is no point?  Just like someone posted above, all this for the ugliest furniture on television and a position ruling people you hate and who hate you right back.  Power is, unto itself, a lost battle.  We had Ned show us that being a good man isn't enough, which is why I ultimately don't have high hopes for Jon Snow.   Stannis' price of admission is killing his own family.  Dany (the best contender, IMO) is going to have to burn down half of Westeros to get it.  Also, while I LOVE watching the dragons, aren't they the avatar for good acquired through evil means?  What do you feed a dragon if not people?  How many people do you feed a dragon before you look in the mirror and realize that you suck and perhaps pet owning was the wrong hobby to take up?  I think the point of Dany came in Season 1 with her killing of the witch.  It seemed right but was it really?  The Dothraki were a marauding band of killers and rapists and the only person in that town with the power to exact ANY pain on them did so.  Was she REALLY a bad guy?  And I seem to recall that Dany burned her alive as well.  The point of the Game of Thrones is that it is a game in which everybody loses.

 

As for Brienne... Am I the ONLY one who finds her utterly useless?  I mean I like her and she is definitely earnest.  But she's not too quick on the uptake is she?  And everybody she swears to protect ends up getting brutalized right under her nose.  When she approached Arya, I was like "Run, Forest, run!!"  It's safer without her.

 

 

Whatever their motives are, they'd probably be shaken by a dragon attack

 

Ok this.  I literally laughed hysterically for five minutes.  Yeah, for emotionally shaken not stirred, a dragon attack ought to do the trick.  LOL LOL LOL!

Edited June 11, 2015 by Timetoread

[Timetoread]

With these as examples, yeah, young and crippled Bran may just go on to win the Iron Chair when all is said and done. :D

 

That and the fact that there won't be anybody else left.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Timetoread

[JillPole]

 

With these as examples, yeah, young and crippled Bran may just go on to win the Iron Chair when all is said and done. :D

I'm not sure the chair will even exist in the end (it could be democracy in the end, or maybe it's all shown to be completely irrelevant), but I do think that Bran represents the side of the living more than anyone else, and that the main point is the battle between life and hope over death and despair.

 

The power struggles and friendships and identity stories and personal loss/joy matter on a character basis, because they represent what life is really about (and that is superlatively important!), but they don't matter on a macro level.  On a macro level, it seems to be a story about fire dragons vs. ice zombies. That's right in the title of the book series. But I think, because it is also a story about people and life, maybe it's not quite fire dragons vs. ice zombies. Maybe it's even more macro than that. Maybe it's a story about life vs. death, and the avatars for these forces are necromancers vs. whatever the living-controlling version of a necromancer is (ie., what Bran is). I see the dragons simply as an inevitable tool for the side of the living, not as a beings important in and of themselves. Which is why I don't really see Danaerys's plot as any more important than any of the stuff going on in King's Landing. She's got the dragons, and she's not in Westeros, but her day-to-day plot stuff has not so far been about the macro issues. Bran and Jon (and I supposed Melisandre, but she's got other agendas, too) are the only ones who are so far focused on what truly matters.

[annsterg]

And by the way, WHERE IS VARYS? 

 

You're singing my song now. Did he just stay in Volantis once he lost Tyrion at the brothel? Varys is one of my favorite characters... and I have spent way too much time wondering what has happened to his network of little birds now that he's no longer in KL...

 

Regarding religion...it's interesting that the state religion, that of the Seven, is one that has not been shown to have any mystical power at all (IIRC), although right now has plenty of political clout.

 

The Lord of Light has shown some mojo (Thoros, Melisandre), the Many Faced God has as well (face switching? while the hall of faces seems to imply a physical process of putting on a face like a mask, that is sure not what we saw when Jacquen changed -- he didn't futz around with a skin mask; he just turned his head away and poof! new face AND hair), and the Old Gods have something going up north.

 

The Drowned God hasn't shown any power either....

[Chris24601]

Regarding the various gods and the differences between Mel and Thoros, I'm wondering if maybe its not gods at all, but individuals with magical potential (no different than Bran's warging or Dany's relationship to dragons) who mistakenly attribute their powers to whatever god they happen to worship. In that case Mel's just some sort of vampire... Suckin up stolen life force/blood and channeling it into fulilling her wishes.

[Calamity Jane]

I'm not sure the chair will even exist in the end (it could be democracy in the end, or maybe it's all shown to be completely irrelevant), but I do think that Bran represents the side of the living more than anyone else, and that the main point is the battle between life and hope over death and despair.

 

The power struggles and friendships and identity stories and personal loss/joy matter on a character basis, because they represent what life is really about (and that is superlatively important!), but they don't matter on a macro level.  On a macro level, it seems to be a story about fire dragons vs. ice zombies. That's right in the title of the book series. But I think, because it is also a story about people and life, maybe it's not quite fire dragons vs. ice zombies. Maybe it's even more macro than that. Maybe it's a story about life vs. death, and the avatars for these forces are necromancers vs. whatever the living-controlling version of a necromancer is (ie., what Bran is). I see the dragons simply as an inevitable tool for the side of the living, not as a beings important in and of themselves. Which is why I don't really see Danaerys's plot as any more important than any of the stuff going on in King's Landing. She's got the dragons, and she's not in Westeros, but her day-to-day plot stuff has not so far been about the macro issues. Bran and Jon (and I supposed Melisandre, but she's got other agendas, too) are the only ones who are so far focused on what truly matters.

I read an article postulating that this story is a Greek tragedy (sacrifice of Shireen/Iphigenia bolstering that idea), which means no happy endings for anybody.  At this point, I don't believe that will be the case, but it's certainly a possibility with these writers.  It looks as if Jon Snow is poised to be the (non-tragic) hero, somehow connecting with Dany and her dragons, and saving the world from the Army of the Dead, but there's plenty of room to suppose, based on how things have gone so far, that indeed the end will be the tragic downfall of, well, everyone. 

Edited June 11, 2015 by Calamity Jane

[beeble]

 

The CGI for the fighting forum/pit were fine overall, as was Drogon when he was on the ground protecting Dany.  But on second viewing, the CGI of Dany flying was really kind of bad.  It looked like something you'd have seen back in the 80's.  I wonder why they flubbed that so badly.

 

 

I have to agree with you. For all of the amazing dragon effects we've had, that one looked pretty cheesy.  Maybe they used up all of their CGI money on making Dany's dress stay so clean with all of the blood and dirt flying around.

[wayne67]

 

The Lord of Light has shown some mojo (Thoros, Melisandre), the Many Faced God has as well (face switching? while the hall of faces seems to imply a physical process of putting on a face like a mask, that is sure not what we saw when Jacquen changed -- he didn't futz around with a skin mask; he just turned his head away and poof! new face AND hair), and the Old Gods have something going up north.

 

The Drowned God hasn't shown any power either....

 

I'm thinking they just stare at the face to memorise its every feature and morph... A way to practise shapeshifting.

[Conan Troutman]

I read an article postulating that this story is a Greek tragedy (sacrifice of Shireen/Iphigenia bolstering that idea), which means no happy endings for anybody.  At this point, I don't believe that will be the case, but it's certainly a possibility with these writers.  It looks as if Jon Snow is poised to be the (non-tragic) hero, somehow connecting with Dany and her dragons, and saving the world from the Army of the Dead, but there's plenty of room to suppose, based on how things have gone so far, that indeed the end will be the tragic downfall of, well, everyone. 

 

There are certainly a lot of characters in the classical tragic sense, i.e. those connected with the gods (whether they're real or not) and/or aspiring to power, so it's definitely a modern take on the genre and we very well might see the tragic downfall of everyone of those. But there are also plenty of characters that don't fit the definition - of course that doesn't mean those are safe from harm, as the show is wont to remind us at every opportunity - but ultimately the real "winners", which in this case means more like survivors, more than likely will stem from that bunch.

[RedheadZombie]

I feel cheated out of seeing Jon's reaction to Aemon's death. Sometimes the reactions of the living are more poignant than the deaths themselves.

For some reason I always imagined that Selyse would marry Bran.

[terrymct]

You're singing my song now. Did he just stay in Volantis once he lost Tyrion at the brothel? Varys is one of my favorite characters... and I have spent way too much time wondering what has happened to his network of little birds now that he's no longer in KL...

 

 

I think that they had Ser Friendzone (aka Patient Zero of the greyscale epidemic) had to kidnap Tyrion and introduce him to Dany first.  Dany knows that Varys was the spy master who had been tracking her most of her life.  Once she starts to trust Tyrion, Tyrion then gets her to trust Varys and accept him as an advisor.  If it works out that way, Dany could be unstoppable.  Tyrion and Varys would make a GREAT pair of advisors for her, then she has the name, family history, regal bearing, and of course dragons.

Note to self: Don't watch next season's ninth episode.

 

Seriously, though, what can they possibly do to shock us now? Roast a bunch of puppy dogs? I know there's worse things than Shireen burning at the stake, but I'll be damned if I want to watch it.

 

I love this show so much, but sometimes I think GRRM and the showrunners are just messing with us, seeing how much we'll take.

 

I have a feeling that Stannis won't reach Winterfell in the finale and we'll have to wait until next season.  The 9th episode will probably be the fall out and/or supposed effects of burning Shireen alive.  Davos really can't even make it back to the camp to react.  We haven't seen him ask for help at Castle Black yet.