S05.E08: Hardhome

[blixie]

 

 

Decapitated dwarfs. This character sipped on some wine while a dwarf head rolled across the table and she did not blink an eye. How do people not remember this? She ordered the decapitated of all dwarfs. Hating Tyrion is not justification for that.

*bangs head into wall*

What has Cersei done? Honestly, HONESTLY people.

 

This was precisely my issue with erasing *every* *single*  thing she did in the books except for the murder of her rapist Robert, and the killing of the dwarves (which clearly no one actually remembers).

 

I frankly consider it gross that Cersei couldn't just be the utterly hateful lifelong MURDERING bitch she is in the books. They had to "soften" her because otherwise people would enjoy the Walk of Shame, when the whole point of the Walk of Shame is to ellicit sympathy for even a hateful lifelong murdering bitch. Feeling sorry for her the first second she suffers even an IOTA of suffering (at the hands of an organization she EMPOWERED and pointed at Margery/Loras) is just beyond me. The FM suck, but they are no less than Cersei deserves.

 

I've had a rage blackout about the portrayal of Cersei and the altering of her character since the second she plotz about Robert loving Lyanna and *miscarrying* her first child with him. Sniff Sniff. Oh Tyrion and Sansa, I'm so sorry about Joff, I don't know how he became such a willfull scamp! GTEFO.

[proserpina65]

Decapitated dwarfs. This character sipped on some wine while a dwarf head rolled across the table and she did not blink an eye. How do people not remember this? She ordered the decapitated of all dwarfs. Hating Tyrion is not justification for that.

 

*bangs head into wall*

 

What has Cersei done? Honestly, HONESTLY people. 

And, as Knuckles pointed out, Cersei has show every evidence of thoroughly enjoying all the shitty things she's done.  Look, I hate religious fanatics (regardless of their particular faiths) and wish Cersei was getting her just desserts from someone other than the Faith Militant, but it's the fact that SHE gave the Faith Militant their power which makes this all schadenfreude for me.  I've got no sympathy for the bitch whatsoever.  She claims that everything she does is to protect her family/children, but to me, it's because she's narcissitic to the extreme.  It's not about her children, it's all about her.

 

Now, if you want to talk about the treatment that Margaery and Loris are receiving, that's a whole different matter; neither of them deserve even a modicum of the shit that's come their way.

[Matt K]

My guess is that the incest charge is referencing Jamie.  I mean at this point the stated objective of the Faith is to tear down and take charge.  The incest is a well known rumor so why not add it to the list.  Especially now that they are essentially torturing her to make her confess.  The charge has the added benefit of removing Tommen.  Worse comes to worse and she disproves that charge, there were plenty of other charges that they found to be just as serious (i.e. Cersei is being treated the same as Margery and Margery's crime was just lying to them).

[trif]

 

My guess is that the incest charge is referencing Jamie.  I mean at this point the stated objective of the Faith is to tear down and take charge.

 

Yeah, I don't think the Faith is worried about playing it safe by keeping a weak king around. They're going for broke and based on the High Sparrow's comments about the many vs. the few, I think he expects to have the masses on his side when the next king in line comes calling with an actual show of force.

 

Unrelated question. How fast are the wights in the books; do we get any frame of reference? They seemed slow in previous show encounters, but roughly normal speed or even faster at Hardhome. Am I misremembering previous encounters? Is this just a case of the show runners doing what is convenient to the plot in the absence of any canon, or what? I wondered if maybe the wights were more focused due to the watching walkers. I hope we are going to get some book spoilers soon(about the White Walkers in general) based on what D&D know from GRRM.

Edited June 2, 2015 by trif

[nksarmi]

In all reality, Cersei's cheating on Robert would be enough for her to be killed in that day and age.  Her cheating on the king would be considered treason as it would be for the person she cheated with (as I recall in the books, Lancel is in jail as well right? only he accepts it because he thinks he deserves it).  In the books, the charge that was brought against Marg was cheating on the king - a 10 year old she couldn't possibly consummate her marriage with - so she has to prove her virginity.  That was a gross sequence, but I do think it shows that the only crime that mattered was adultery.  The other charges are just icing on the cake.

 

Of course, I can see the show going after Cersei on incest charges with Jamie to remove Tommen.  The HS on this show seems to want royal and noble houses brought down altogether.

Edited June 2, 2015 by nksarmi

[OakGoblinFly]

Decapitated dwarfs. This character sipped on some wine while a dwarf head rolled across the table and she did not blink an eye. How do people not remember this? She ordered the decapitated of all dwarfs. Hating Tyrion is not justification for that.

 

*bangs head into wall*

 

What has Cersei done? Honestly, HONESTLY people. 

 

 

I don't think that is correct - Cersei ordered Tyrion beheaded, not all dwarfs .... the bounty hunters, in the hopes of collecting the promised reward started lobbing off the heads of not-necessarily blonde-haired dwarfs.

 

While Cersei has been horrible, she doesn't deserve the abuse/torture that she's received at the Sparrows' hands -- that makes them just as terrible as she has been. 

[proserpina65]

While Cersei has been horrible, she doesn't deserve the abuse/torture that she's received at the Sparrows' hands -- that makes them just as terrible as she has been.

 

To me, she does deserve every bit of it.  That it makes the FM as terrible as she is doesn't make it any less deserved.

 

I don't think that is correct - Cersei ordered Tyrion beheaded, not all dwarfs .... the bounty hunters, in the hopes of collecting the promised reward started lobbing off the heads of not-necessarily blonde-haired dwarfs.

That is correct.  However, she obviously doesn't give a shit how many dwarfs have to die, so long as she gets Tyrion's head in the end.  Still makes her pretty awful.

 

Edited June 2, 2015 by proserpina65

[Funzlerks]

I am pretty sure book Loras took Dragonstone and got disfigured. Cersei sent him to do that before Margaery was arrested so he wouldn't be around to stop anything. It was militarily stupid and Loras didn't even die as planned. Book Cersei was such a deeply stupid yet powerful person. I hate that the show makes it seem like the Faith Militant just care about Maergery and Cersei sleeping around.

Mark Twains quotes about the Reigns of Terror seem so apropos. There really were two reigns of terror but people only care about the brief one that came from a sense of revenge in the heat of a revolt. No one cares about the cold-blooded, institutionalized, systematic terror wrought on the peasants for a thousand years. That is why I can conscience the Faith Militant for things Cersei does worse. She straight up violently tortures people, murders, puts usurpers on the throne while clinging to feudal rights. I think the theocracy they propose would be despotism, though, so it isn't an exact parallel because the French created ideas that last today.

And unless Daenerys plans on bringing an army of bureaucrats with her to transition away from feudalism, I believe she wants to return to Targeryan Stella despotism that also crushed people and ony was as good as Robert Baratheon's reign 10-20 percent of the time.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Funzlerks

[lucindabelle]

Show Cersei is weirdly likable, IMO, both because she has a sense of humor and does love her children. I'm not on her side and didn't feel sorry for her but I love watching her.

[BlackberryJam]

But here's the thing, all the Unsullied I know, those who don't frequent any message boards, say things like, "I hate that Queen lady. She's horrible." They then go on to list why they hate her, and there are plenty of reasons, even ones that don't match the books.

I am talking the very casual show watcher. I think book readers just expect Cersei to be so much more horrible that it's hard to say even half Cersei is pretty gross.

[OakGoblinFly]

Show Cersei is weirdly likable, IMO, both because she has a sense of humor and does love her children. I'm not on her side and didn't feel sorry for her but I love watching her.

 

 

I completely agree - I think a large part is due to Lena Headey's portrayal of Cersei - the way she carries herself, to the tone of her speech, to the subtle shifts in facial expressions - it's all (to me) pitch perfect.

 

I like that little moment when you could see Cersei's mask slip when the High Sparrow starting his speech, you could see that she was concerned about what was going to help - it was a tiny moment, a little faltering in the Queen Mask, but so well done.

[Pogojoco]

Yeah, the dagger thing is a bit complicated. Tourney pre book 1: Jamie vs Loras. Robert bets on Loras , LF and Tyrion bet Jamie. LF bets his valyrian steel dagger. Loras won so Robert gets the dagger. LF tells Cat he lost the dagger to Tyrion, not Robert. But that's how LF knows about the dagger. It's a crazy story anyway, because Tyrion would never bet against Jamie.

My favorite bitch moment of Book Cersei is how she wanted Arya's arm cut off for what Nymeria did to Joffrey when they couldn't find the wolf.

And Cersei hated Tyrion from birth.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Pogojoco

[Dewey Decimate]

Is it just me, or did anyone else look through the horde of undead thinking, "Okay, which one is Benjen..."

ITA - It's so weird how this guy who made the briefest of appearances is totally obsess-able! I am dying to see him again in some - ANY - fashion.

 

Now a female warrior not being able to fight, and just letting herself be killed, when she sees something that had at some point been children, that is really insulting and sexist. But ymmv.

That character (and actress) was awesome for her short appearance. I don't think her submitting to the inevitable was an insult to us women. If confronted with that herd of Junior Wights, I'd probably also have a response of "you gotta be fuckin' kidding..." (tm John Carpenter's The Thing) Especially that Edward Gorey freakshow hollow-eyed motherfucker. GAH!

 

It's funny how I'd been slightly bored at Arya's story so far this season - always nice to see Jaquen, but it's like sweep-sleep-slap-repeat - and actually enjoyed the oyster-monger scenes. For one, it was fun to see her in completely different garb - so cute! And the scenery change is pleasant to look at. I'm curious to see how they'll film her transformations into other faces at yet still use Maisie Williams; I'm picturing a shot of another actress in the clothes, then slight pan away and then back with MW in the same clothes.

[blixie]

 

I think book readers just expect Cersei to be so much more horrible that it's hard to say even half Cersei is pretty gross.

 

 

Dude, it is not HALF, literally the only thing retained from that list is using Lancel to kill Robert. And it's a long long long list (I left out all sex related crimes but she used sex to make most of these murders happen):

 

Murdered Melara

Tortured baby Tyrion

Aborted Robert's child

Plots the Murder/maiming of Arya

Had Lady put to death

Murders King Robert

Plotted the successful murder of the High Septon

Frames Margery for adultery and treason

Plots the murder of Bronn

Orders the murder of all Robert's bastards 

Gives Qyburn multiple women and men to torture

 

Two crimes out of ELEVEN.  That ain't half. And Lady is mainly just a bitchy thing she did not a deeply heinous one like the other nine things. The one and only time I felt they allowed Cersei to be the unmitigated heartless bitch she is in the books, was at the purple wedding and when she fed the leftover food to the dogs instead of the poor, and again in the grand scheme of War and Westeros a minor cruelty.

 

Meanwhile she's having sad scenes added every other episode about losing babies she loved with all her heart, lamenting the depravity of Joffrey to effing TYRION and Sansa for effs sake, and telling us how her heart it doth bleed for the way women are oppressed in this dark sad world, when book Cersei wants to be man primarily so she can kill and torture and rule people first hand rather than using sex and proxies to achieve it.

 

I hate show Cersei 10 times as much as I hate book Cersei, who I understood, and found complex and interesting rather than the naked appeal to sympathy and propping that is show Cersei. 

[Oscirus]

Did Jon ever notice that it was Summer and Shaggydog that helped out when he was attacked by his wildling compatriots?

 

 

Not that I can recall. I just remember Sam telling Jon they were still alive

 

I swear I recall someone (perhaps Tyrion) threatening Lancel with what Jamie would think when he gets back to KL and finds out that Lancel has been boffing Cersei and Lancel looked petrified.

 

 

Tyrion worded it carefully ( If the horrid rumors against my brother and sister are true...)

 

In fact the wager never happened, the dagger NEVER belonged to Littlefinger, and the whole story was made up by him to move Catelyn to start a war by arresting Tyrion.

 

 

That was such a sloppy lie. I never get why anyone would believe that Tyrion would bet against his brother.

 

While Cersei has been horrible, she doesn't deserve the abuse/torture that she's received at the Sparrows' hands -- that makes them just as terrible as she has been.

.

 

She put the whole system she was persecuted under in place and scared her son out of even bothering trying to rescue Margery and by extension, her. Hell, the only reason she was arrested is that she had to take that unnecessary victory lap. Such delicious irony. I dislike both parties but still take enjoyment in Cersei's comeuppance.

 

After watching that second Tyrion Dany conversation, I have to say that Tyrion made Dany seem really unprepared. I guess it's a good thing she stopped in Mereen for so long or she would've been in a lot of trouble.

 

 

[blixie]

 

I never get why anyone would believe that Tyrion would bet against his brother.

 

Because Ned and Catelyn Stark were two of the more deeply stupid people in all of Westerosi politics. It really is a freaking miracle that four out of five Stark kids are still kickin'.

[BlackberryJam]

blixie, we heard Oberyn tell the story of Cersei pinching baby Tyrion's cock. So that's there. It's pretty gray about whether or not she knew or helped with Joffrey having Robert's bastards killed. I don't consider abortion a crime. It seems pretty clear she arranged for the arrest of Loras and Margaery, frame or no frame. So yeah, I'm going with half.

Her chat with Catelyn is S1 was pretty awful because Cersei was part of the Bran tossing, so she won no points there. The conversation with Oberyn was pure manipulation and Oberyn even tells the audience "she was trying to manipulate me" in case they didn't get it themselves.

Yeah...show Cersei is pretty freaking horrible and I don't want to make aspersions on Show!Cersei fans, mostly because I don't know any.

I cannot believe I am arguing of over the horribleness of Cersei. I really think the outrage over the Walk is not going to come from the casual viewer, who already hates Cersei, but rather from groups that would be disgusted by sexualized punishment as a whole. (I am disgusted by sexualized punishment, yet I have no problem with poor widdle Cersei not getting a drink of water. Go spend a day on Ramsay's cross then whine about not getting water.)

[FemmyV]

I wonder if anyone really wants to see Gendry ride a dragon. Shireen doesn't seem like a better option than Tyrion to me but that's just personal preference.

i'd want to see Gendry in more of a role before we slap him on a dragon, in general. I also wonder about Brienne. Don't know about genetics, but I expect she'd be badass.

 

 

I cannot believe I am arguing of over the horribleness of Cersei. I really think the outrage over the Walk is not going to come from the casual viewer, who already hates Cersei, but rather from groups that would be disgusted by sexualized punishment as a whole.

 

I'm going to wait and see how the walk goes. Lena is so great as Cersei, I half expect her to own it and leave her onlookers in shame, you know? I don't really care what self-projecting interest groups will have to say. Either way, if the Sparrows buy her contrition and leave Cersei as regent  without further harassment, that leaves work for Varys.

Edited June 2, 2015 by FemmyV

[Dev F]

I frankly consider it gross that Cersei couldn't just be the utterly hateful lifelong MURDERING bitch she is in the books. They had to "soften" her because otherwise people would enjoy the Walk of Shame, when the whole point of the Walk of Shame is to ellicit sympathy for even a hateful lifelong murdering bitch.

 

I sincerely doubt that the showrunners started writing Cersei as a more sympathetic character back in season 1 because they were concerned about how viewers would react to an event that wouldn't take place until four seasons later -- if their show even lasted that long, which was far from a certainty when they started out. I think it's much more likely that the made her more sympathetic because it made her more interesting for them to write for, and for Lena Headey to portray.

 

And I, too, think it's weird to have to argue about whether show!Cersei is horrible enough, when she's still pretty freaking horrible. I mean, just last episode she was gleefully taunting her son's beloved wife, whom she promised to free but had in fact conspired to lock up in the first place. The fact that she did so out of a sad sense of her own uselessness and a genuine concern for her son's well-being doesn't make her a super-fantastic lady.

[dr pepper]

Ser Kevan is back as Hand of the King. 

 

Now will Varys return to make his clean sweep of the kingdom's secular leadership?

Arya got the cockles storyline. Hooray!

 

 

They should have had "Molly Malone" playing in the background.

[blixie]

 

I don't consider abortion a crime.

 

I don't either, but changing her story from: practical self determined woman willfully and happily aborts fetus of a man she HATES to vulnerable, rejected woman loses beloved baby of man who doesn't LUFF her is just utter bullshit.

 

 

because it made her more interesting

 

My problem is that I personally find her LESS interesting, and less complicated. 

Edited June 2, 2015 by blixie

[dr pepper]

So, does Valaryian steel have the same properties as dragonglass? If so, then why didn't Longclaw shatter other walkers??

 

Those were just zombies. The walkers are something else.

[dr pepper]

I liked how the giant was brushing off the walkers like they were annoying mosquitoes.

 

Me too. I picture him thinking "humans! so annoying evewn when they're dead."

[Starving Writer]

I don't either, but changing her story from: practical self determined woman willfully and happily aborts fetus of a man she HATES to vulnerable, rejected woman loses beloved baby of man who doesn't LUFF her is just utter bullshit.

 

 

My problem is that I personally find her LESS interesting, and less complicated. 

They didn't outright state it, but I'm pretty damned sure that Cersei's "black-haired baby" didn't just die.  Cersei outright killed it.  She was only playing it up to offer some fake sympathy to Cat in that conversation.  

[Hecate7]

I can't recall if this is specifically stated in the books or not but The Ice and Fire Wiki states that Littlefinger did lose the dagger while betting at the Tourney only he lost it to Robert and not Tyrion as he claimed.

 

So at one point it did belong to Littlefinger--sorry, didn't notice that part before. Seems strange that he should possess a Valyrian steel dagger--wonder where he got it from in the first place?

 

The rest of my point still stands, however. Joffrey stole the knife from Robert, and used it to arm an assassin. Baelish lied and said he'd lost it to Tyrion, in order to start a war between the Starks and Lannisters. He knew Catelyn would be on the warpath and try to get justice. He had already primed the pump by having Lyssa kill Jon Arryn and then write Catelyn accusing the Lannisters of the murder.

 

My question, for people who admire Baelish for struggling up from the bottom, is where did House Baelish or House Corbray get a dagger like that to begin with? Oh, and where is that dagger now? I am pretty sure Baelish has it.

[dr pepper]

Hopefully it's all a bunch of bullshit.  Death to prophecy as a plot device in fantasy novels!

 

Heh, now you make me want to read a story in which the protagonist has a quest to destroy prophecy. Of course, every seer, apparition, and hedge wizard met along the way says the quest is doomed to fail.

[screamin]

So at one point it did belong to Littlefinger--sorry, didn't notice that part before. Seems strange that he should possess a Valyrian steel dagger--wonder where he got it from in the first place?

 

The rest of my point still stands, however. Joffrey stole the knife from Robert, and used it to arm an assassin. Baelish lied and said he'd lost it to Tyrion, in order to start a war between the Starks and Lannisters. He knew Catelyn would be on the warpath and try to get justice. He had already primed the pump by having Lyssa kill Jon Arryn and then write Catelyn accusing the Lannisters of the murder.

 

My question, for people who admire Baelish for struggling up from the bottom, is where did House Baelish or House Corbray get a dagger like that to begin with? Oh, and where is that dagger now? I am pretty sure Baelish has it.

 

If we go by the books, LF certainly didn't inherit the dagger. His grandfather was a mere knighted commoner and his ancestors were never rich enough to afford such a thing or illustrious enough to have inherited it. I'd guess that he amassed enough money as Master of Coin to have bought the dagger for himself as a nouveau riche status symbol.

[lucindabelle]

I guess I'm gullible, because I pretty much bought in the show that young Cersei, while an incestuos amoral girl, did want to love and be loved by Robert the hero, and was hurt and insulted when he called her by the wrong name.

 

This cersei doesn't seem the type to have murdered any child she carried.

 

I almost like her.

 

Almost.

 

ETA:

 

I don't think it's a uterus thing but a PARENT thing.

Sam would have been just as stunned and no doubt Tormund.

And honestly... a VIEWER thing. I'd have been stunned for a moment too.

Edited June 2, 2015 by lucindabelle

[Hecate7]

"When the sun rises in the west, and sets in the east.  When the seas go dry, and the mountains blow in the wind like leaves."

 

The sun rising in the west and setting in the east is (metaphorically) Quentin Martell.  Since the show has excised him, I'm guessing that Mirri Maaz Dhur's "prophecy" isn't as important as it seems in the books.

 

Edit -- west and east are confusing directions.

 

To rise, means to become more powerful, to take over. Perhaps to become king. I take the prophecy to mean, "When a Martell becomes king or takes power in  Westeros, and then is killed/deposed/defeated in Essos."  We haven't seen that yet. We may yet see Trystane and Myrcella crowned in Westeros, and then the prophecy will begin. That is, if it's still important at all.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Hecate7

[dr pepper]

When the head white walker raised his arms I was on the edge of my seat nervous because thought dead things were going to rise out of the water.

 

I was afraid he was going to invoke his power and flash freeze the water, so trapping the boats and giving the zombies access to the people fleeing.

 

 

Is it just me, or did anyone else look through the horde of undead thinking, "Okay, which one is Benjen..."

 

I wondered if he would show up, but he couldn't just be part of the horde.

[hammaboo]

 

 

But what does dragon steel really mean?

Does it mean the Iron Throne is potentially a source of Valyrian steel since one of Aerys's dragons was used to forge it?

And in this vein, taking apart the throne to save the kingdom would fly in the face of everyone that has participated in the game of thrones.  :)

 

Heck, it already is set up to be swords - take them out and get them in shape!

[DigitalCount]

And in this vein, taking apart the throne to save the kingdom would fly in the face of everyone that has participated in the game of thrones. :)

Heck, it already is set up to be swords - take them out and get them in shape!

Wouldn't that just be the greatest indictment of the moron brigade? Swords that should be used to protect the realm are instead a place for the king or queen to sit around and lord their power over people.

[Winnief]

And in this vein, taking apart the throne to save the kingdom would fly in the face of everyone that has participated in the game of thrones.  :)

 

Heck, it already is set up to be swords - take them out and get them in shape!

 

I for one would love to see that.  I'm so sick to death of watching all these idiots battle over that ugly old chair. 

[Alapaki]

I didn't see any sexism in Karsi being struck immobile with horror and grief at the sight of the wight children. My impression is that she knew at least one of them - the one on the right who seemed completely intact except for the glowing eyes - and probably most of them.

 

 

I think that scene was also set up as a bookend for Olly's inevitable charge at Jon when he gets back to The Wall.  Although I'm not 100% sure that Jon will actually get stabbed.  They haven't given us an "is he dead or not" cliff-hanger to end a season, have they?  They usually use Episode 10 to flesh out the aftermath of Episode 9.  

 

I'm starting to think that they're going somewhere with Jaqen's female assistant.  When she asked Jaqen if he thought Arya was "ready" for the task of killing the "gambler", I almost detected a sense of concern for Arya's well-being.  I'm just getting a nagging sense that we're going to get a "reveal" that shows her to be someone we know from the books.  I just can't figure out any candidates.

[Dev F]

I'm starting to think that they're going somewhere with Jaqen's female assistant.  When she asked Jaqen if he thought Arya was "ready" for the task of killing the "gambler", I almost detected a sense of concern for Arya's well-being.  I'm just getting a nagging sense that we're going to get a "reveal" that shows her to be someone we know from the books.  I just can't figure out any candidates.

 

My latest theory is that they're planning to have a Faceless Man kill off Balon Greyjoy in the finale, and they can't have Jaqen do it because he needs to stick around Braavos to finish out Arya's storyline (and Arya probably won't be far enough along in her training to do it herself), so the Waif is being built up as a more significant character so it'll be meaningful when she's revealed as the assassin.

[Alapaki]

Unless, of course, episode 9 is Drogon, Cersei's walk of shame, Sansa's escape from Winterfell, and Melisandre realizing that she's made a terrible mistake.

Episode 10 could be Kevan getting stabbed by Varys, Tyrion and Jorah freeing Dany's other dragons, Arya's big kill/turning blind, Sansa and Theon hopefully safe with Brienne.  As well as Jon's Julius Caesar moment.

 

 

The other Chekov's Gun out there this season is Qyburn's "project".  We've seen the body in the background in that scene in Qyburn's lair.  And this week he said "the work continues".

 

So, I'll toss Zombie-Gregor into the mix as a candidate for the final scene.  (inspired by the talk of people's varied views of Cersei.  D&D might see Gregor's appearance for Cersei's Trial by Combat as a "hopeful" ending to the season.

[BlackberryJam]

Next episode is supposed to contain a long scene between Jaime and Doran, according to Alexander Siddig. Also, the previews have Doran demanding allegiance, most likely from Ellaria if we look at setting and background. Jam packed.

[Holmbo]

The fact that it took me two days to get around to watching this episode makes me realize how much less than usual I'm enjoying this show lately. This episode was great though. The best part was how long it felt. I kept expecting it to end but there was just more awesome scenes.

I think what made me hesitate to watch this episode is that I'm so nervous about the writing. For this season I'm worrying that:

They will not handle Cersei's walk of shame right.

Stannis will burn Shireen for no plot reason.

Sansa won't get to do anything this entire season.

The "twist" of Dorne is going to be that Doran was in on the Targaryan restauration.

They won't have Jon locking away Ghost so him not being around for the stabbing will seem stupid.

The show is going to end with Jon dying and a lot of viewers going to think it's the final straw and stop watching.

Maybe this episode should somewhat lessen my concerns though because I think they did a great job on pretty much all the show invented stuff this week.

I guess Cersei really can't be sending letters to someone who's supposed to be sneaking into a region undercover, which sucks because I really liked that in the books. But I do like that beyond her one line about how she made the High Sparrow she seems to be every bit as unreflective as ever that she made the trap she's now ensnared in and only really has herself to blame. She's been reduced to licking water off a dirty floor to the strains of Rains of Castamere but she's still trying to threaten or buy her way out and thinking that or course someone will be along any minute to rescue her because she's a Lannister, dammit. Aging Tommen up now makes no sense at all if they're going to continue to write him as if he was still an 8-year-old boy. He's the king and he's hiding in his room because they took his mommy away?

.

I think in the show Jaime will return from Dorne with Myrcella Trystane and some sand snakes just as that other kings guard did in the book. Then he and Cersei will have the equivalent of the letter scene face to face.

Also, baby Sam aside, I still claim 4 years have gone by at this point in the show and Tommen is not aged up. He's 12-13. I kinda like how useless he is because it makes people actually miss Joffrey for a second.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Holmbo

[Alapaki]

Aging Tommen up now makes no sense at all if they're going to continue to write him as if he was still an 8-year-old boy. He's the king and he's hiding in his room because they took his mommy away?

 

 

I agree with this completely.  In a way it's unfair to the Tommen character because it makes him look like such a Putz.  But it also took some of the significance away from just how royally Cersei fucked things up and what a big deal it was to give a bunch of fanatics an army.

[Pogojoco]

I think there is a difference between hating Cersei (which I do, both show and book. She's a terrible, terrible person) and loving what Lena Headey does with her. This woman conveys so much destain with her eyebrow, it's pretty amazing. 

Edited June 2, 2015 by Pogojoco

[MrWhyt]

The show is going to end with Jon dying and a lot of viewers going to think it's the final straw and stop watching

 

I highly doubt that, A WTF moment like that (especially if it's not clear he's dead) is just going to increase buzz for the series.

[Hecate7]

I don't think that is correct - Cersei ordered Tyrion beheaded, not all dwarfs .... the bounty hunters, in the hopes of collecting the promised reward started lobbing off the heads of not-necessarily blonde-haired dwarfs.

 

While Cersei has been horrible, she doesn't deserve the abuse/torture that she's received at the Sparrows' hands -- that makes them just as terrible as she has been. 

 

She is way worse than they are.

 

They at least believe they are saving souls, sending them to heaven, redeeming the world. The horrible things they do, are a means to a spiritual end. Cersei doesn't believe in any of that.

 

She unleashed them just so they would torture and kill Margaery and Loras, and she could sip her wine and giggle and watch. Loras' only crime against Cersei was being engaged to her against his will. He wasn't going to pursue the marriage, and neither was Olenna. But that's not good enough for Cersei--she has to kill him, and bring down his whole house, her only allies, in the process. She's motivated purely by spite and cruelty. Tyrion Season 2 told a story of how when she was a child Cersei had her maid (a child no older than she was) beaten until the maid lost an eye, on suspicion of stealing a necklace. The maid might not even have been guilty, but even if she was, an eye is worth a lot more than a necklace. And Cersei giggled happily at the memory.

 

She armed the Faith Militant. That's like putting the Spanish Inquisition back into power. And she thought it was great fun, and was ready to sit back and sip wine and watch all the tortures and executions of people and enjoy it.

 

Worst of all, she favored Joffrey over Tommen at every turn, and allowed him to abuse and terrorize Tommen to the point where poor Tommen never developed any confidence at all. She did nothing to protect her other children from Joffrey, and God knows what horrible things he did to them both. We've gotten the tip of the iceberg with Tommen's story about Ser Pounce. It didn't bother her when Joffrey disemboweled a pregnant cat (probably Tommen's cat, or Robert's). She was upset that Robert reacted. She enjoyed Joffrey's terrorizing Sansa, Tyrion, and whomever else Joffrey wanted to torment.

 

Cersei has done even worse things than this--we just don't know about them all. She thinks she and Jaime are soulmates, but really, she's a better match for Ramsey Bolton.

[dr pepper]

I have a feeling that whatever Ramsey does to the Stannises is going to be bad.  Hopefully it's not something as heinous as kidnapping and flaying you know who.  But I suspect it will hurt Stannis regardless of what he does.

 

Melisandre? Oh, i'd love to see that!

 

Mel is trussed up in the dungeon. Ramsey goes to work on her little finger.

 

Ramsey: So, you serve the Red God, huh? Here's some red for him. (he pauses to admire his work) So what finger shall we do next?

 

Mel: How about, one of yours?

 

Her finger heals instantly and her bonds disintegrate in a flash of fire. She steps away from the cross.

 

Ramsey: Nice trick, can you keep it up?

 

He signals his men to grab her, but they start screaming in pain and beating at themselves as though they are on fire. One rushes to the cell door, but it won't open.

 

Mel: The Red God sees everything. He knows what you have done. All that you have done. You, gentlemen-- the Red God, will release you if you offer your master as a sacrifice. Do to him everything that he has ever done to anyone else!

 

Ramsey tries to attack her, but his knife suddenly becomes red hot. He drops it. His men grab him and drag him to the cross. She nods and their pain stops.

 

Mel: Don't be concerned about killing him, i can assure that he will be alive for as long as it takes.

[vesperholly]

Did anybody else wish that Jon had picked up the White Walker's weapon after he killed it?

 

Definitely! And when they left all the dragonglass behind, I thought "oh shit, they REALLY need that!"

[Avaleigh]

I just realized that we finally got a mention of Joanna Lannister by name. 

[The Mormegil]

If we go by the books, LF certainly didn't inherit the dagger. His grandfather was a mere knighted commoner and his ancestors were never rich enough to afford such a thing or illustrious enough to have inherited it. I'd guess that he amassed enough money as Master of Coin to have bought the dagger for himself as a nouveau riche status symbol.

My guess would be that some Lord wanted something extra special in one of LF's brothels and paid for it with the VS dagger. Littlefinger was certainly not attached to it since he was quite happy to gamble with it.

 

And in this vein, taking apart the throne to save the kingdom would fly in the face of everyone that has participated in the game of thrones.  :)

 

Heck, it already is set up to be swords - take them out and get them in shape!

 

I seriously doubt the swords in the Iron Throne would have the same effect as Dragonglass or real Valyrian Steel.

 

I'm starting to think that they're going somewhere with Jaqen's female assistant.  When she asked Jaqen if he thought Arya was "ready" for the task of killing the "gambler", I almost detected a sense of concern for Arya's well-being.  I'm just getting a nagging sense that we're going to get a "reveal" that shows her to be someone we know from the books.  I just can't figure out any candidates.

 

Well she is in the books, she's The Waif or do you mean The Waif is actually someone else we know from the books?

 

They won't have Jon locking away Ghost so him not being around for the stabbing will seem stupid.

 

Varamyr Sixskins was supposedly cast for this season and hasn't appeared yet so they could still go with the plotline of Ghost having to be locked up due to other animals being in Castle Black.

 

However it may be that Varamyr was replaced by the Wildling Chieftainess as her part was originally written for a male.

[Attaboy000]

The fact that it took me two days to get around to watching this episode makes me realize how much less than usual I'm enjoying this show lately. This episode was great though. The best part was how long it felt. I kept expecting it to end but there was just more awesome scenes.

I think what made me hesitate to watch this episode is that I'm so nervous about the writing. For this season I'm worrying that:

They will not handle Cersei's walk of shame right.

Stannis will burn Shireen for no plot reason.

Sansa won't get to do anything this entire season.

The "twist" of Dorne is going to be that Doran was in on the Targaryan restauration.

They won't have Jon locking away Ghost so him not being around for the stabbing will seem stupid.

The show is going to end with Jon dying and a lot of viewers going to think it's the final straw and stop watching.

Maybe this episode should somewhat lessen my concerns though because I think they did a great job on pretty much all the show invented stuff this week.

I think in the show Jaime will return from Dorne with Myrcella Trystane and some sand snakes just as that other kings guard did in the book. Then he and Cersei will have the equivalent of the letter scene face to face.

Also, baby Sam aside, I still claim 4 years have gone by at this point in the show and Tommen is not aged up. He's 12-13. I kinda like how useless he is because it makes people actually miss Joffrey for a second.

 

I also think Tyrion will take the role of Strong Belwas, munching down the poisoned crickets (or w/e they were)

[magdalene]

But here's the thing, all the Unsullied I know, those who don't frequent any message boards, say things like, "I hate that Queen lady. She's horrible." They then go on to list why they hate her, and there are plenty of reasons, even ones that don't match the books.

I am talking the very casual show watcher. I think book readers just expect Cersei to be so much more horrible that it's hard to say even half Cersei is pretty gross.

I wonder who is more unpopular with the unsullied viewers, Cersei or Jaime?

[sunflower]

 

I wonder who is more unpopular with the unsullied viewers, Cersei or Jaime?

 

I'm biased, but it's gotta be Cersei simply based on the popularity of Jamie and Brienne. 

[Alapaki]

Well she is in the books, she's The Waif or do you mean The Waif is actually someone else we know from the books?

 

 

Yes.  We know that they can assume other people's appearances.  I'm wondering if we're going to get a Mission Impossible-style reveal where she peels her face off and turns out to be someone from Arya's past life.