S01.E16: To Ransom a Man's Soul

[Archery]

But if we're going to have a softer scene of Claire helping Jamie through his PTSD then they should have cut Murtagh's line about somebody needing to go into the darkness with him. What she did was what any loving wife would say to her despairing husband. How was that entering the darkness?

 

 

Because Show-Claire went in to do exactly what Book-Claire did. That is why we see her grinding the lavender and why she smacks Jamie around. She is trying to provoke the fight instinct as an antidote to his shame that he did not fight BJR.  But because Show-Jamie was not delirious with fever (and there wasn't the opium in the brazier), his response was not to hallucinate BJR in place of Claire, but rather: WTF, Claire?!  And then he was able to verbalize his feelings.  So the "step into the darkness" suggestion made sense in that it was the plan, but it turned out not to be necessary because the bigger issue in the show was how BJR tainted Jamie's perception of himself with Claire, not that he had not fought back (which was the bigger issue in the book).  She was totally prepared to Go There, though. 

 

But with "Outlander," what BJR does is so much worse and more complex, because his own feelings are so twisted and corrupted that for him love and hate appear to be the same thing. I have never seen anything on television like what we saw here, because (a rarity), for me this episode put rape right out there as this ugly, violating, physical thing -- and then effectively showed how much worse the mental violation can be.

 

 

I had to catch my breath at the point where Jamie is reclining on BJR in the "Pieta" pose, and BJR tenderly strokes water onto his forehead and caresses his hair back.  It was such a gentle and sweet gesture that -- knowing what was coming up -- made me want to cry, and perfectly showed that love/hate thing.  (And then BJR says, "So you're just going to submit like Christ on the cross," and I'm like, "Well, you did just drive a nail through his hand. . ." and got over the moment real fast.)

Edited June 1, 2015 by Archery

[Cirien]

Jack isn't dead though. I am sure he'll return. That's one of the reasons why I have decided to not watch further. I don't think I can stand the sight of Tobias Menzies face for a good long time.

And it's going to compel the audience to want to Claire with Jamie. That's why I could never get accept Claire and Jamie in the books as this all encompassing love. Because it came at the cost of Frank being Demonised, through DG's later writing of him  and also by association of being BJR descendant...I won't be watching either Edited June 1, 2015 by Athena
Removed quote from non bookie

[Petunia846]

Random thought...maybe Murtagh didn't stab Randall (to make extra sure he was dead) because he didn't want to give away their presence. If Jack's just smashed, then (at first) it just looks like some cows got in. But if Jack were smashed and stabbed or had his throat slit, they would immediately know there was foul play and the hunt for Jamie would start earlier and the redcoats would be a lot more determined to get him. I totally hated that Murtagh didn't gut him right there, so I'm going to hang onto this idea for my own sanity. (Because I mean, come on, it's Murtagh, he's the best. If he didn't do it there has to have been a reason.)

[Nidratime]

Ned told them not to?... Just kidding. ;-)

[Hana Chan]

As a casual viewer of the show (read the books back when I was in high school more years ago than I want to admit to), I wasn't bothered per say by the graphic portrayal of Jamie's rape. I was bothered, in that I like this character and it's hard to see him hurt in such a manner. But I wasn't upset that the show went there. There are times when a rape scene might be gratuitous, and nothing angers me more than a graphic rape scene being eroticized, but unlike Mad Max (where the rapes were a prelude to the main storyline), what happened to Jamie was a critical part of the character's current storyline and will have lasting repercussions.

 

How the scenes were shot were pretty masterful in getting maximum impact on the audience, and we got to see what a total mind-fuck the whole thing was. Jamie was prepared for physical violence against his person. What Randall attempted to do was make Jamie complicit in his assault, first by bargaining for Claire's safety and then with trying to make him an active participant. Then we had the deliberate blurring of the lines where Jamie was seeing and responding to Claire instead of Randall. The second rape was in many ways even more horrifying than the first precisely because of the lack of violence, and because of Jamie's physical reaction. Having Jamie orgasm during his rape was probably the single worst thing that could have happened to Jamie because that involuntary reaction to sensation would have escalated the self-loathing that he was already feeling from the first rape. The entire encounter was designed to debase and humiliate Jamie was much as possible, to make him feel less of a man (which in their hyper-masculine era was about the worst thing possible).

 

Did it need to be this explicit? If they wanted the audience to buy that Jamie had been brought low enough to want death, then beating around the bush IMO wouldn't cut it. There's no thinking that maybe it wasn't that bad. Jamie's reactions are entirely understandable given what he'd endured and I think this was important for the show to cement. Because Jamie was not only raped, but made to feel as if he'd been complicit in the act. That not only did he acquiesce to Randall's assault (agreeing not to resist) in order to protect Claire, but he responded physically at the end.  To make him think that because he had (what we know today to be) a completely involuntary physical response that he in some way "wanted it". The whole episode was meant to completely destroy everything that Jamie was and I don't believe that this could have been imparted to the audience with a subtle fade to black.

 

The episode was meant to horrify and it did so. There are times when I think explicitness is necessary to show that something was really. That. Bad.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Hana Chan

[absnow54]

Random thought...maybe Murtagh didn't stab Randall (to make extra sure he was dead) because he didn't want to give away their presence. If Jack's just smashed, then (at first) it just looks like some cows got in. But if Jack were smashed and stabbed or had his throat slit, they would immediately know there was foul play and the hunt for Jamie would start earlier and the redcoats would be a lot more determined to get him. I totally hated that Murtagh didn't gut him right there, so I'm going to hang onto this idea for my own sanity. (Because I mean, come on, it's Murtagh, he's the best. If he didn't do it there has to have been a reason.)

He could have at least performed his Scottish Sword Dance on top of the door, just to make sure Randall was good and flattened. 

[ulkis]

I still think her shock was over taking a persons life, not the actual attack. Or at least the major reason for it. But that's just my feeling on the matter.

 

You know, I had forgotten about that aspect and I think you're right, that probably affected her equally if not more.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I still think her shock was over taking a persons life, not the actual attack. Or at least the major reason for it. But that's just my feeling on the matter.

You know, I had forgotten about that aspect and I think you're right, that probably affected her equally if not more.

 

 

And I remember, how she kept looking at her bloody hands, while telling herself she was in shock. So yeah. Agree with the both of you on that.

 

[AheadofStraight]

I also assumed it had to do with the killing. However, as a book reader, I also knew he wasn't successful in raping her so that may be why I went to that line of thought? It came across a bit vague and many non-readers thought she was actually raped there before she was able to stab him.

[Dust Bunny]

Just in case you were wondering, Àdhamh Ó Broin (the Gaelic consultant on the show) tweeted that Jamie's Gaelic reply to Claire's pregnancy announcement was "Absolutely brilliant!". 

 

He tweeted he'll be translating the Murtagh-Jamie scene in the future, but he's holding back for now. He seems to enjoy keeping people on pins and needles, while also letting the untranslated scene speak for itself for a while.

 

It's kind of a cool Twitter account, if you're into learning more about the language.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Dust Bunny

[GHScorpiosRule]

Just in case you were wondering, Àdhamh Ó Broin (the Gaelic consultant on the show) tweeted that Jamie's Gaelic reply to Claire's pregnancy announcement was "Absolutely brilliant!". 

 

He tweeted he'll be translating the Murtagh-Jamie scene in the future, but he's holding back for now. He seems to enjoy keeping people on pins and needles, while also letting the untranslated scene speak for itself for a while.

 

It's kind of a cool Twitter account, if you're into that sort of background stuff.

 

 

I am into that kind of background stuff, but I absolutely LOATHE Twitter. So, waaa, for me.

[Dust Bunny]

 

I had to catch my breath at the point where Jamie is reclining on BJR in the "Pieta" pose, and BJR tenderly strokes water onto his forehead and caresses his hair back.  It was such a gentle and sweet gesture that -- knowing what was coming up -- made me want to cry, and perfectly showed that love/hate thing.  (And then BJR says, "So you're just going to submit like Christ on the cross," and I'm like, "Well, you did just drive a nail through his hand. . ." and got over the moment real fast.)

 

According to this Vulture article, that pose and that line were created during the guys' rehearsal with the director. Powerful stuff.

 

http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/outlander-season-finale-the-story-behind-it.html

 

ETA: that article also describes how hard those scenes were for Sam. Tobias was relatively cool with most of it (according to Moore's podcast); not so much for Sam. Especially what the director did towards the end of shooting. No wonder the guy went climbing and drinking for a few days after filming.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Dust Bunny

[chocolatetruffle]

According to this Vulture article, that pose and that line were created during the guys' rehearsal with the director. Powerful stuff.

 

http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/outlander-season-finale-the-story-behind-it.html

 

ETA: that article also describes how hard those scenes were for Sam. Tobias was relatively cool with most of it (according to Moore's podcast); not so much for Sam. Especially what the director did towards the end of shooting. No wonder the guy went climbing and drinking for a few days after filming.

 

Wow.  The interesting thing about that article is that everything Ron says that he wanted to see was completely translated to the screen.  I love this part...

 

"Jamie can take punishment, we've seen that time and time again," Heughan said, "but it doesn't matter as long as he's got Claire. That's his fortitude, and Black Jack breaks that for him. He recomputes, recalibrates Jamie so that he's messing with his mind, and makes Jamie associate him with Claire in those moments. So now when he sees Claire, Black Jack is there, and he's completely lost."

Part of this happens because Black Jack's method isn't just to rape an unwilling subject. Black Jack insists that Jamie participate.

 

 

And yeah that was so sad that they made him do it all again after he thought the shoot was over.

[TxanGoddess]

I don't see how the rape in general could have been left out of the series, and yet I could have done without the thrown-on-the-table scenes myself.  I know that there had to be some contrast to the second rape, during which Jamie was physically aroused, but I actually would have preferred the show to have stuck more closely to the novel in this regard.  In any case, I am still not mad.

 

I do have profound sympathy for anyone who has been violated and was thus offended by this episode.  Sure there were warnings, but you get caught up in having watched a show like this for a while, you've invested your time, and you do end up thinking, "well how bad can it really be?"  without knowing until you ... well; know.  When SoA was on, I was a huge fan, and there is literally nothing you could have told me that would have warned me off of watching it at the beginning of season 5, nothing.  But I have lost a friend to a brutal death, a biker friend no less, and after ep 5:3 I didn't have the stomach for it anymore, and I totally regretted the loss of time I had spent on following the whole story.  Something like that isn't a fault type of thing, it just is what it is.  Not quite a comparison to  Outlander, but an analogy.

Edited June 1, 2015 by TxanGoddess

[hammaboo]

I liked the part where Claire gives her confession. The expressions he gave while he listened were priceless.

 

Unpopular opinion ahoy!

 

There's something about this show and the show runners that annoy me.  I shouldn't need to go to Twitter or blog posts or whatever in addition to the on screen show to understand the show/show writer motivations.  They should put it all on the screen. 

 

And I guess I don't feel like they put it all on the screen.  I think the writers and producers spent a lot of time congratulating themselves for what they put on the screen because they were soooo daring and forgot that they had to put a show out for an audience, both that had read the book and that hadn't.

 

I don't feel like they show why this man in historical Scotland could overcome what he went through just because his wife tells him she loves him and can't live without him/might as well die too.  I don't think they built enough story around them in order to support this.

 

As convoluted and somewhat clunky as I thought the books were, at least I got the understanding/payoff that they had a strong relationship (that I was able to justify the rest of the tripe) 

[tcay]

I've been trying to decide if I thought these Wentworth episodes were gratuitous or not. I'm on the fence for 115, but for this episode, I do think the necessary amount was shown. We don't fully comprehend Jamie's shame about what happened until seeing it happen. When he tells Claire that he felt pleasure, Claire is quick to say it doesn't matter, that everything is forgiven, because it's all words to her. But it's not just words to Jamie.

 

So showing the second assault was necessary for us to understand where Jamie's shame is coming from. But working backwards, they couldn't only show that one. It would leave viewers with a lot of questions and not necessarily productive ones. Showing the first assault then, while on its own does nothing really to advance the characters (Jack is evil and Jamie is pain: knew that), serves as a foil to the second rape. We needed to see Jamie not take part in the first rape, so that we could understand he was broken in the second. 

 

I do think this was a pretty rough way to end the season. I'm invested, but I could definitely see hanging back next season as a non-reader. The boat scene didn't inspire a ton of happiness, but then again, DiA is arguably the saddest book of the series. 

[Pestilentia]

 

ETA: that article also describes how hard those scenes were for Sam. Tobias was relatively cool with most of it (according to Moore's podcast); not so much for Sam. Especially what the director did towards the end of shooting. No wonder the guy went climbing and drinking for a few days after filming.

That's just sad.

I understand the principle of suffering for one's art, but I hate to see darkness get into anyone's head like that over a TV show.

Reminds me of Olivier's advice to Hoffman re "Try acting."

[Hana Chan]

Thing that I think this episode did that was really superior to the book was that Jamie's experiences were about Jamie. His feelings of violation and shame and humiliation. Not Claire's impression of Jamie's feelings. Because the show doesn't limit itself to one character's POV (even if she's the central character), the thoughts and experiences that affect other characters get to be about them. Claire may still be they keystone of the series, but she's not the absolute center of the universe. And I think that it was important for Jamie's rape to be about him and Randall and not how Claire saw their dynamic. It make it more real and more sincere and less like a plot device to get a particular reaction out of Claire.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Hana Chan

[aemom]

Finally watched this episode. I FF through the rape scenes because reading them was bad enough, I could not bear to watch them.

There were quite a few changes from the book, but overall I liked the episode and the acting was phenomenal.

Looking forward to the change of pace and scenery of Season 2, though based on a few things I've read, I don't think that it starts the way the book starts.

[ElsieH]

I just came across this and thought it was interesting. She's saying that GoT got more backlash on its rape scene than Outlander did.

 

http://www.eonline.com/news/660951/outlander-boss-ron-moore-on-why-the-male-rape-had-to-happen-and-his-thoughts-on-game-of-thrones

 

I guess she doesn't read the no book threads here LOL.

[MsProudSooner]

When an actor takes a role like Black Jack Randall, does he ever worry that he will be typecast or that the audience will turn away from watching him because they so identify him with BJR?

 

I can see why an actor would want to tackle the role, but I wonder if there is a downside to it in the future.

[WatchrTina]

I doubt if there is any downside for Tobias.  He's a well-established actor with a good reputation already and the dual role in Outlander gives him the kind of opportunity to show off the range of his acting skills that most actors would give their eye-teeth for.  Any casting director looking at the show would have to be impressed with the way Tobias is able to make his two characters so distinctive and they'd probably also appreciate the fact that Tobias is clearly game for anything.

 

Sam also really lucked out with this role because he's gotten to play everything from boyish & adorable, to swashbuckling & heroic, to sexy & sexier, to drunken & funny, to tortured & tragic.  No matter what role Sam wants to play in the future there is probably a bit from Season 1 that shows he can play it.

Edited June 3, 2015 by WatchrTina

[theschnauzers]

I doubt if there is any downside for Tobias.  He's a well-established actor with a good reputation already and the dual role in Outlander gives him the kind of opportunity to show off the range of his acting skills that most actors would give their eye-teeth for.  Any casting director looking at the show would have to be impressed with the way Tobias is able to make his two characters so distinctive and they'd probably also appreciate the fact that Tobias is clearly game for anything.

 

Sam also really lucked out with this role because he's gotten to play everything from boyish & adorable, to swashbuckling & heroic, to sexy & sexier, to drunken & funny, to tortured & tragic.  No matter what role Sam wants to play in the future there is probably a bit from Season 1 that shows he can play it.

Sam had a really diverse career on stage, television and film before Outlander, in addition to his professional college level training, but he has certainly kicked things up a couple of notches as Jamie.....not to mention that Diana and Ron were proven right that he was the perfect casting for the role. And not to mention that Sam has been so generous with the media, and the fans; most lead actors would proverbially kill for that sort of reputation.

[chocolatetruffle]

Episode:

I thought this was a very good episode, though I can understand the strongly negative reactions some people had to it. 

 

I liked the way this episode’s structure paralleled “The Wedding” with multiple flashbacks. Whereas the Wedding portrayed increasing love and passion, this episode portrayed the destruction of Jamie’s spirit.  This episode structure did cause there to be more rape scenes than there might have been if the flow had been purely chronological.  I doubt they would have shown a 20 min straight BJR/Jamie scene! The structure and the multiple BJR/Jamie scenes allowed us to see the evolution of Jamie’s struggle—though I would have preferred those scenes to be shorter and less graphic.  I would also have liked them to show more of the rescue and recovery.  I don’t think this show has earned a reputation of showing nudity for its own sake (a la Game of Thrones sexposition), so I was better able to tolerate the graphic nature of these scenes.  I did not feel like anything portrayed in this episode was meant to be sexually arousing or done for its own sake, so I disagree with the “porn” comments.

 

I do think they did an excellent job of showing why Jamie is so devastated and ready to end his own life—something very different for this strong, resilient man.  Jenny and Claire have both had near-rape situations (yes, I know it’s not the same as actual rape) and recovered rather quickly.  Also, Jamie has risked his life for Jenny and Claire before—so he is willing to sacrifice his life for love.  So why then was he so shattered?  1) He was raped not once, but repeatedly.  2) He experienced “pleasure” in the process and that would have come as quite a shock to him.  Naturally, Jamie would not be very knowledgeable about the body’s automatic reactions that have nothing to do with one’s will, emotions, or intellect.   3) He stopped fighting.  He expected to die fighting and he ultimately gave up in order to stop the pain.  For a soldier, that would be particularly disheartening, because he would have felt like a coward.   4) BJR was able to control him.  First, forcing him to scream, forcing his arousal, and finally forcing him to “enjoy it”. 

 

I’m not sure that they could have shown all this without the multiple scenes of the attack, though perhaps they could have focused more on their expressions than their bodies.    I think the transition from despair to cracking jokes on the boat was a little too sudden.  Maybe some discussion about the passage of time (weeks, perhaps) would have helped.

 

I appreciated the moments of levity from the men, especially the au revoir scene.  Of course, Angus would be the one to try to kiss Claire!  Very well in keeping with him showing her what’s under his kilt (The Gathering), trying to see her naked (The Wedding), and his all around degenerate nature (Castle Leoch). 

 

ETA: I'm glad Willie remembered that Claire was supposed to have relatives in France.  I like it when loose ends are tied up!

 

I liked Claire’s confession, especially the part about her acknowledging the negative impact she’s had on the lives of her 2 husbands.  I don’t blame her for her choices, but they have inadvertently hurt 2 good men.  1) Abandoning Frank without any further communication due to her choice to stay with Jamie  and 2) disobeying Jamie and forcing him to risk himself to rescue her from BJR and later leave the safety of Leoch. Again, she did what she thought was right at each step, and made a lot of positive difference, but also caused some harm.  BTW, I don't think it's all that surprising that the monk was not shocked by her confession.  we know that everyone can tell if she's lying--and she plainly was not.  Also, even religious folks were more superstitious then (e.g., Father Bain) so he might well be willing to believe in time travel.

 

The pregnancy is a little cliché, but I like it anyway!!!

 

Season:

Now that the 2nd half of the season is over, I have a few thoughts about it.

• I think that the 2nd half of the season required one more episode. The pace of this half was VERY fast, which is not unexpected and probably necessary.  However, one more episode would have allowed more detail around married life at Leoch (and possibly Lallybroch), which would have 1) shown Laoghaire the true nature of their relationship and allowed her resentment to build and 2) balanced out the violence of the later episodes and 3) been fun to watch and 4) given us more time with the side characters I had come to love: Mrs. Fitz, Hamish, Rupert, Angus, Willie, etc.
• More discussion of why she decided to stay in the 18th century was needed throughout the season.  Frank pretty much vanished and that was a miss. Even some discussion of the differences between BJR and Frank would have been good.

 

I brought this over from the non-book reader thread because it's a terrific assessment of the episode from someone who hasn't read the book.  It's great to see that the show is translating well to those not familiar with the book.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Athena
Removed linked quote information

[Keeta]

chocolatetruffle thank you! I saw that post in the non-book reader thread and was like argh, I want to like this post so much!

 

Could. Not. Agree. More. with nara's two overall season assessment points. 

Edited June 3, 2015 by Keeta

[Hybiscus]

I haven't seen this brought up anywhere—not here or other forums or any reviews of the episode.  I'm slightly timid to ask, because it's regarding the flashback scenes, and I don't want to be seen as dwelling on those, but I'm curious if other people caught what I did and wondered about the implications.

 

In the second flashback scene, Jamie is crawling on the floor and very bloody.  It's absolutely shocking.  The implications of the bloody thighs is obvious, but his face and mouth are also bloody.  This leaves me to believe he's been through a lot more torture that we didn't see.  Then, in the last flashback, Jamie seems to be cleaned up a bit, especially his face.  He's still dirty, but it appears that the blood has been washed away.  Did anyone else pick up on that?  If so, what's your interpretation?  Did BJR clean him up for the final act or something?  I guess I'm just looking for some understanding, and would appreciate anyone else's thoughts.

[GHScorpiosRule]

We know, from the book, that Black Jack not only raped Jamie, but tortured him, whipped him until he was bloody, screaming at Jamie to say "I love you Alex!" and that, I think he also rubbed Jamie's blood across his lips or something.

 

But the show didn't air those scenes. I guess those that didn't read the book or haven't in a long time, were supposed to fill in the blanks? I dunno.

[morgan]

Yeah, knowing what happened in the books a lot more happened than is ever shown or discussed. And yeah my filling in the blanks includes some cleaning was done. I try not to think too hard about it

[Nidratime]

Which leads one to believe they filmed more than they aired. Deleted scenes, anyone?!

[morgan]

God I hope not!

[Dust Bunny]

 

Which leads one to believe they filmed more than they aired.

 

They did. I can't remember which article I read, but there was mention that there was more... of Sam than we saw. Moore has mentioned in a couple places that when he was in the editing room for "Ransom", anytime he had to look away, he cut those shots/scenes. I think the director, Anna Foerster, shot several things that Moore, thankfully, overruled. I strongly doubt most of those things will ever be seen. It makes me wonder if Sam was happily surprised with the final edit. I also give Moore credit for walking that fine line better than I think Foerster might have. I loved her "Wedding" direction. But based off the fact that she's used trick lines (granted, to good effect) and unanticipated filming on really challenging scenes, I can imagine it might not be super easy on the actors (read, particularly, Sam).

 

Basically, I spend too much time reading/listening to behind-the-scenes stuff.

[SunDevil]

I haven't seen this brought up anywhere—not here or other forums or any reviews of the episode.  I'm slightly timid to ask, because it's regarding the flashback scenes, and I don't want to be seen as dwelling on those, but I'm curious if other people caught what I did and wondered about the implications.

 

In the second flashback scene, Jamie is crawling on the floor and very bloody.  It's absolutely shocking.  The implications of the bloody thighs is obvious, but his face and mouth are also bloody.  This leaves me to believe he's been through a lot more torture that we didn't see.  Then, in the last flashback, Jamie seems to be cleaned up a bit, especially his face.  He's still dirty, but it appears that the blood has been washed away.  Did anyone else pick up on that?  If so, what's your interpretation?  Did BJR clean him up for the final act or something?  I guess I'm just looking for some understanding, and would appreciate anyone else's thoughts.

The first attack is over the table where Jamie's hand was smashed and nailed. It looks like there is quite a bit of blood on the table, so I'm just going to assume it was from that, even if the books imply otherwise. As for cleaning up, Randall brings out the water bucket and is shown using it to clean both Jamie and himself.

[ElsieH]

I'm really hoping they don't do it, but Jamie has some nightmares in the next book about Randall. I just hope we don't have to see them.

Edited June 4, 2015 by ElsieH

[WatchrTina]

 

Did anyone else pick up on that?  If so, what's your interpretation?  Did BJR clean him up for the final act or something?

I had the same reaction.  Yes in the scene where Jamie was crawling on the floor and had blood on his mouth I imagined a particular scene from the book (one that ended with him vomiting in disgust) and I presumed that happened.  BJR says something to the effect of "Have you reached your limit yet?" which leads me to believe that the rape on the table-top was only the beginning of what Jamie was put through.

 

And then yes, after the branding scene, Jamie has been cleaned up. He's lying on the bed, watching BJR take the ice bucket challenge, I mean bathe himself, and my interpretation was that he had already bathed Jamie (which is a scene I can definitely live without) in preparation for what he had planned next.

 

I've said it before but Jamie/Sam looked really gorgeous in that scene as he looks over at BJR.  The shot is "soft" for lack of a better word.  Which was, I think, the director's way of messing with our heads just a bit.  I feel guilty about admiring Sam in that moment -- which is a pale imitation of the guilt Jamie feels over allowing himself to think of Claire during his "surrender."

Edited June 4, 2015 by WatchrTina

[SpiritSong]

 

And then yes, after the branding scene, Jamie has been cleaned uph. He's lying on the bed, watching BJR take the ice bucket challenge, I mean bathe himself, and my interpretation was that he had already bathed Jamie (which is a scene I can definitely live without) in preparation for what he had planned next.

 

LOL at the ice bucket challenge. I need all the levity I can get when thinking about this episode.

[AheadofStraight]

Great Scot has the Gaelic translations up. It's even more poignant than I expected. *sniff*  

 

http://greatscotblog.com/2015/06/01/outlander-episode-116-to-ransom-a-mans-soul-the-gaidhlig-bits-i-could-decipher/

Jamie to Murtagh:  How ​can I be left to ​this pain?

Murtagh to Jamie: We shall do our utmost to heal you.

Jamie to Murtagh: Some things ​don​’t ​take h​ealing​. As is my desire, put an end to this now.

Murtagh to Jamie: I’ll suffer no more of this.

Jamie to Murtagh: I won’t get ​past​ this. Will you force me to beg?​

Murtagh to Jamie: I gave a promise to your mother. Peace on her soul That no harm would come to you.​

Jamie to Murtagh: late is the hour, oh godfather​.

Murtagh to Jamie: And Claire? Would she just be a widow, forsaken? Your head’s in the porridge (you’re not thinking straight). You haven’t a single thought for her.

Jamie to Murtagh: I have​n’t a single​ thought ​of anything but her.

 

 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Great Scot has the Gaelic translations up. It's even more poignant than I expected. *sniff*  

 

http://greatscotblog.com/2015/06/01/outlander-episode-116-to-ransom-a-mans-soul-the-gaidhlig-bits-i-could-decipher/

 

 

Damn ye, AheadofStrrraight fer bringin' tears to me eyes so early this morn!

[GHScorpiosRule]

I keep coming back to this page to read this line again and again and again and again and again...

 

Jamie to Murtagh: I have​n’t a single​ thought ​of anything but her.

 

Yes, I'm a pathetic piece of goo right aboot now.

[AheadofStraight]

That's the one that punched me in the gut too. Why do such good lines have to be in a another language so no one knew what they were saying?? ;)  (We got the gist...but that's better than I imagined)

[AD55]

The sentiments are lovely, but I'm guessing (hoping) it's less stilted in the original.  "As is my desire, put an end to this now." Who talks like that? It's apparently a very literal translation.

 

 

[ulkis]

Great Scot has the Gaelic translations up. It's even more poignant than I expected. *sniff*  

 

http://greatscotblog.com/2015/06/01/outlander-episode-116-to-ransom-a-mans-soul-the-gaidhlig-bits-i-could-decipher/

 

Murtagh to Jamie: I gave a promise to your mother. Peace on her soul That no harm would come to you.​

Jamie to Murtagh: late is the hour, oh godfather​.

 

I was a little confused by this at first, but I guess Jamie means "too late for that"? Or is it something else?

[GHScorpiosRule]

I was a little confused by this at first, but I guess Jamie means "too late for that"? Or is it something else?

 

Probably.  A lot of phrases/sentences if foreign languages don't "sound" right when translated. I know this from when trying to translate something in Hindi to English and explaining what it means; I sometimes have to qualify with "loses something in the translation."

[ulkis]

The sentiments are lovely, but I'm guessing (hoping) it's less stilted in the original.  "As is my desire, put an end to this now." Who talks like that? It's apparently a very literal translation.

 

I think it is.

[Pestilentia]

Somebody should throw together a current-speak version.

I would do it but I'm out the door this instant...

[Archery]

Jamie to Murtagh:  How ​can I be left to ​this pain?

Murtagh to Jamie: We shall do our utmost to heal you.

Jamie to Murtagh: Some things ​don​’t ​take h​ealing​. As is my desire, put an end to this now.

Murtagh to Jamie: I’ll suffer no more of this.

Jamie to Murtagh: I won’t get ​past​ this. Will you force me to beg?​

Murtagh to Jamie: I gave a promise to your mother. Peace on her soul That no harm would come to you.​

Jamie to Murtagh: late is the hour, oh godfather​.

Murtagh to Jamie: And Claire? Would she just be a widow, forsaken? Your head’s in the porridge (you’re not thinking straight). You haven’t a single thought for her.

Jamie to Murtagh: I have​n’t a single​ thought ​of anything but her.

 

How about this:

 

Jamie:  How can I live with this agony?

Murtagh:  We’ll get you through this.

Jamie:  You can’t. Please, kill me and put me out of this black misery.

Murtagh:  I won’t listen to any more of this nonsense.

Jamie:  I can’t take this anymore. Will you force me to beg?

Murtagh:  I promised your mother, may her soul rest in peace, that no harm would come to you.

Jamie:  It’s too late for that, godfather.

Murtagh:  And Claire?  Would you leave her a widow, alone and forsaken?  You are not thinking straight.  You haven’t thought about her at all.

Jamie:  She’s all I think of.

 

I didn't think my heart could break any more for this man. 

[Oconnellaboo]

How about this:

Jamie: How can I live with this agony?

Murtagh: We’ll get you through this.

Jamie: You can’t. Please, kill me and put me out of this black misery.

Murtagh: I won’t listen to any more of this nonsense.

Jamie: I can’t take this anymore. Will you force me to beg?

Murtagh: I promised your mother, may her soul rest in peace, that no harm would come to you.

Jamie: It’s too late for that, godfather.

Murtagh: And Claire? Would you leave her a widow, alone and forsaken? You are not thinking straight. You haven’t thought about her at all.

Jamie: She’s all I think of.

I didn't think my heart could break any more for this man.

I gave it a try, too, but yours is so much better! That is just a devastating scene - Duncan and Sam conveyed every bit of the heartbreak beautifully, but having and idea of the words makes it even more stunning.

[ulkis]

I gave it a try, too, but yours is so much better! That is just a devastating scene - Duncan and Sam conveyed every bit of the heartbreak beautifully, but having and idea of the words makes it even more stunning.

 

Oconnellaboo! Too funny to see you pop up today because I have talked about Fringe a lot today.

 

Back to topic: 

 

How about this:

 

That was good! Although I actually like the original last line, I don't think it's too stilted of a translation.

[Oconnellaboo]

Oconnellaboo! Too funny to see you pop up today because I have talked about Fringe a lot today.

Hey, stranger! Great to see you!

What I love about Outlander is the very formal speech patterns they have to use - so much emotion is conveyed, but within the confines of 18th century speech. I've noticed more and more how Sam's Jamie straddles a linguistic/grammatical line between educated man & Highland warrior. There's an entire study in that, I think!

[theschnauzers]

One thing that translation of the Gaelic of the conversation between Jamie and Murtaugh underscores is how important and how impactful Claire's conversation with Jamie really was; and only Colaire could have made herself that clear and that completely to get through to Jamie.

 

Which fits in line with the book on the same theme better than without knowing the meaning of that Gaelic conversation.

[AD55]

Probably.  A lot of phrases/sentences if foreign languages don't "sound" right when translated. I know this from when trying to translate something in Hindi to English and explaining what it means; I sometimes have to qualify with "loses something in the translation."

This is why being a translator is so challenging. Often, folks think it's a matter of translating word for word, but that is not the same as conveying meaning. I have a friend whose mother wrote subtitles for movies. I hadn't realized that you can, on average, only translate about a third of what the person says as that's all most viewers can read in the time allotted. It's a genuine art form.