S03.E23: My Name Is Oliver Queen

[ottoDbusdriver]

Tatsu said to Laurel that she lives a life of solitude because Oliver asked her to -- when exactly in the flashbacks to Hong Kong did that happen ?

[dcinmb]

The pacing was kind of off and I don't get how Oliver suddenly beat Ra's, but I really loved this finale. 

 

Didn't Oliver use the same moves that Ra's used to "kill" him in The Climb? The whole "the student must learn from the master in order to defeat him" thing?

 

When Oliver and Tatsu were talking about his father, Oliver said "If I was.....".  No, Oliver, the correct grammar is "if I were".  Stephen Amell should have caught that.

 

They're always making mistakes. One glaring error that comes to mind is in the Flash crossover (1.08) just after they lock up the Rainbow Warrior and Oliver says,"I have a prison like this. Mine's on a nearly inhospitable island in the North China Sea but this works too." Pretty sure he was meant to say "uninhabitable."

 

All in all a pretty decent finale to a spectacularly uneven season. Guess we'll just have to look at the past season as OUR crucible. Does this mean we're heroes now, too? Better go buy some buckles.

 

Edited because The Fall is not the same as The Climb.

Edited May 14, 2015 by dcinmb

[apinknightmare]

Tatsu said to Laurel that she lives a life of solitude because Oliver asked her to -- when exactly in the flashbacks to Hong Kong did that happen ?

 

 

I think she said that she LEFT her life of solitude because Oliver asked her to, and it was time for her to go back to it. 

 

A waste, if you ask me.

[calliope1975]

All in all a pretty decent finale to a spectacularly uneven season. Guess we'll just have to look at the past season as OUR crucible. Does this mean we're heroes now, too? Better go buy some buckles.

 

I'm gonna pick dark blue as my color guys. I look really good in dark blue. Give me my mask.

[BkWurm1]

HEE!!

 

It's Felicity’s Porsche!  The license plate reads 2FS-4FR

 

Or at least an audience shout out. Or Oliver named it after her.  Oh, I don't know, but still makes me smile cause 2nd Felicity Smoak Forever!!  (Or I suppose To Felicity Smoak forever) Oh and above the number it read Land of MIA,  :)

 

They may be missing in action but I bet they aren't missing any action.  ;)

 

Edited to say: Ok, probably not MIA (see apinknightmare's post) But the rest I read right. 

 

FYI, price of a 2016 Porsche Carrera 911 ranges between the base model at $84,300 and the top of the line Carrera at $132,800.

Edited May 14, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Guest]

Why are some people saying that Oliver chose to be with Felicity over being the Arrow? He's choosing to be with Felicity, yes, but he can't even be the Arrow anymore because his suit is in evidence and Ra's stole that identity from him so whaaaaat? Point missed by miles. 

[apinknightmare]

2nd Felicity Smoak Forever!!  Oh and above the number it read Land of MIA,  :)

 

I think it's "Land of Mist." ;)

[TV Anonymous]

My problem with this episode is that the Ra's al-Ghul title is so easily transferable and the League of Assassins is just fine with that. Remember that Oliver needed to jump through hoops just to be Warith al-Ghul.

[dcinmb]

Also have to agree with everyone about being disappointed at the lack of PDA between Oliver and Felicity. Not only no kissing, but no hugging? No face cupping? No hand holding? No glasses removing? Unacceptable.

 

And I loved Oliver's smile/laugh after Felicity said she'd kiss him if she could but I really wish the camera had focused on his face as it dawned on him that it was Felicity who had saved him and not Ray. SA would have killed at the wonderment and admiration.

Edited May 14, 2015 by dcinmb

[BkWurm1]

I think it's "Land of Mist." ;)

Oh I'm sure you are right, lol.  I still like where my mistake took my mind, ;)

 

You are definitely right.  I Googled Land of Mist and apparently it's been showing up on the Starling City license plates since season one. 

Edited May 14, 2015 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

Im sorta glad that Malcolm became the next Ras. It fulfills what I believe was his agenda all along. I never really saw him on a redemption arc. Plus as head of LoA he can be a frenemy to OQ without having to be in SC or every major plot line of s4. In many ways its the best solution for his character because it removes him from the main plot, but does not require him to be fit into the B plots.

 

It was really sad that Nyssa was not able to kill him or her father. But I think that only means more building drama in the next seasons. Now we have more legit reasons to bring Nyssa on as a recurring member and frankly her & MM being mortal enemies is kinda exciting. I think it will lead to awesome fights in future seasons. I also wonder if MM will reveal that he never killed Sara and this has all been part of his plot as well. I still think Sara will be revealed as never being murdered whenever they bring her back in s4. But that's just wild speculation on my part.

[bmoore4026]

God, this had such a series finale vibe to it.

 

But, we got to see Felicity in the Atom Armor (yay!)  and Ray blew up (100x yay!)

[BkWurm1]

Also have to agree with everyone about being disappointed at the lack of PDA between Oliver and Felicity. Not only no kissing, but no hugging? No face cupping? No hand holding? No glasses removing? Unacceptable.

 

And I loved Oliver's smile/laugh after Felicity said she'd kiss him if she could but I really wish the camera had focused on his face as it dawned on him that it was Felicity who had saved him and not Ray. SA would have killed at the wonderment and admiration.

There was one brief moment of face cupping but the camera was on the other side so it was easy to miss.  Right after she gave Oliver his pep talk, her phone rings and she moved her hand from his heart to his face but it's blink and you miss it moment before the camera switches view and then her hand is sliding down his chest. 

 

That said, in spite of no overt PDA, I will have no trouble living on the looks and discussions.  They actually talked.  Intimately and meaningfully.  It could have been a conversation they had in season 2 by the won't cross the lines way they acted but I think I was craving the renewed emotional intimacy even more than kisses and hugs. 

 

 

My problem with this episode is that the Ra's al-Ghul title is so easily transferable and the League of Assassins is just fine with that. Remember that Oliver needed to jump through hoops just to be Warith al-Ghul.

Well he had technically fulfilled the prophecy so I suppose all Malcolm had to do is give the League the finger and then lay out his fulfillment of said prophecy. 

 

 

Why are some people saying that Oliver chose to be with Felicity over being the Arrow? He's choosing to be with Felicity, yes, but he can't even be the Arrow anymore because his suit is in evidence and Ra's stole that identity from him so whaaaaat? Point missed by miles. 

Oliver specifically said he didn't want to be the Arrow even if he could be.  Yes he did choose to be with Felicity but first came his relief that he didn't have to be the city's savior.  Throw in her earlier pep talk about feelings making him stronger and fighting to live  (and Ra's commenting on it favorably) he's on his way to being able to find that balance in his life. 

 

After his first vacation in eight years. 

Edited May 14, 2015 by BkWurm1

[tennisgurl]

Actually, it might be better from everyone if Malcolm is running the LoA. After all, on his own, he destroyed the Glades and killed hundreds of people. As far as we can see, the LoA mostly just kind of hang out in castles, with lots of dramatic lighting and such. Maybe destroy a city every once in awhile. Because of the reasons. 

 

When Oliver was telling Malcolm he would never forgive him for killing Sara or hurting Thea, I thought he would mention how he killed Tommy and his Oliver`s dad too. 

[WaitandHope]

My 10 YO daughter: mom, I understand how they are going to make it without Oliver, but how will they do anything without Felicity?

Great episode. It actually just felt like a different show tonight - and that might have been a good thing. More later -- we have a long summer!

[Betweenthisandthat]

If I cared about Oliver and Felicity being together I might be over the moon, but I don't so I got nothin'.  Other than a few scenes here and there, like Thea as Speedy, I can't say the show offered up much for me. Oliver's left others to protect the city and he and Felicity have drive off into the sunset.  Feels like a series finale, and I'm tempted to treat it like one if I can.  I'll tell myself Nyssa didn't join the league but stayed in Starling City because the image of her bowing to Malcolm was too gross.  

Edited May 14, 2015 by Betweenthisandthat

[Scribbles]

To quote Oliver:  "Can I say something strange?  I'm happy."  Yup, that says it! 

 

I am happy to see the hero get the girl, win the battle, have friends and family to return to and take off to figure out who he is and wants to be.  There is a cliffhanger: what will a happy Oliver Queen choose to do after a bit of rest and relaxation?  That is actually a huge question and one I will look forward to tuning in next season to watch unfold.  Oliver with something to live for could be a mighty formidable force. 

 

I love that he didn't even tell Felicity where they were going.  People can squeal about her losing agency or whatever, but he is doing what he wants to do and she is along for the ride.  We the viewers get to see where that road leads.  Sometimes following is a brave and valid choice.

 

I really liked the Diggle/Oliver conversation.  It was true to both of them.

 

I did not care for Quentin being off the wagon.  I just wish they had not gone there.

 

Malcolm heading the LOA has lots of story potential, especially if it turns out to be less about him wanting to head it and more about him wanting to use it for something related to HIVE...for or against. 

 

Nyssa is a wildcard at this point and that is a great way to leave her till next season.

 

I want to see both Roy and Deadshot return. 

 

I

[kismet]

I honestly don't think Oliver has any clue where they are going. They are driving wherever the sun takes them. About the only place I think they are not going is on boat. I feel like OQ will avoid boats at all costs moving forward, which might be a wise decision considering his nautical track record.

[SleepDeprived]

There was one brief moment of face cupping but the camera was on the other side so it was easy to miss.  Right after she gave Oliver his pep talk, her phone rings and she moved her hand from his heart to his face but it's blink and you miss it moment before the camera switches view and then her hand is sliding down his chest.

 

Hee. I caught that and giggled a little. Then again, I was pretty focused during every interaction between Felicity and Oliver because they were giving me so much life.

 

I don't expect Diggle and Oliver to be all hunky-dory next season but I hope their rift doesn't last too long. I want to see more Diggle/Thea team-ups, though. I've always liked their dynamic since that scene in S2 when Diggle was keeping an eye on her against Slade.

 

I must say I'm very intrigued by Damien Dahrk. I mean, he had Christopher Heyerdahl, a pretty established actor, as a minion so he must be someone impressive, right? Okay, sure, his minions at The Essex were pretty easily dispatched by Team Arrow (and Nyssa and Malcolm) and Heyerdahl got arrowed by Ra's after five seconds onscreen but still, it seems like Dahrk certainly operates in the modern world and has very good connections/massive wealth accumulated. His minions wore suits! He rented out the entire top floor/penthouse suite! And he's on the pulse of things enough that he knew to get outta dodge before Ra's even set foot in SC.

 

I wonder if the Chief of Police or other government authorities are on his payroll, which is why Captain Lance couldn't get the snipers to stand down? 'Cause how would the Chief know that the two men fighting on the dam were, for sure, responsible for the virus outbreak? And the chief's orders were shoot to kill Ra's and Oliver, instead of incapacitate and arrest.

 

I really, really hope that they cast a great actor in the role, though. And that he won't be such a fail like this Ra's turned out to be.

[bluebonnet]

Wow, talk about phoning it in.  This was really bad, made worse that most of it was spoiled by Flash crossover and promos.  I usually don't spend much time at this forum because it moves too fast for me to keep up, but I had to stop in here just to see if the show had been canceled because that mess looked like a series finale for a show that was canceled.  This season was all sorts of blah and ugh and wut.  

 

I guess the only thing I'm left with is confusion over why Thea wasn't made Ra's when she clearly survived Ra's blade.  Lame that Oliver just handed the ugly ring off to Malcolm.  

[wonderwall]

There was one brief moment of face cupping but the camera was on the other side so it was easy to miss.  Right after she gave Oliver his pep talk, her phone rings and she moved her hand from his heart to his face but it's blink and you miss it moment before the camera switches view and then her hand is sliding down his chest. 

 

Took a little digging :)

 

[Guest]

Oliver specifically said he didn't want to be the Arrow even if he could be.  Yes he did choose to be with Felicity but first came his relief that he didn't have to be the city's savior.  Throw in her earlier pep talk about feelings making him stronger and fighting to live  (and Ra's commenting on it favorably) he's on his way to being able to find that balance in his life. 

 

After his first vacation in eight years. 

 

But I saw that setting him up to become Green Arrow more than anything, not that he was choosing Felicity over being a hero. Just that the Arrow was done for now and he was taking some time to figure out who he wants to be, with the woman he loves. He'll always be a hero, no matter what identity he wears, and Felicity will always love him. I was just baffled some people (not here, elsewhere online) were saying that the only way Olicity could happen was Oliver giving up being a hero and that was so not the point.

[dcinmb]

There was one brief moment of face cupping but the camera was on the other side so it was easy to miss. Right after she gave Oliver his pep talk, her phone rings and she moved her hand from his heart to his face but it's blink and you miss it moment before the camera switches view and then her hand is sliding down his chest.

Oh, I was paying very close attention and may have said a bad word or two when her cell phone rang, but I wanted OLIVER to do the cupping. Felicity's always touchy-feely so it doesn't mean as much to me as when Oliver initiates the Felicity-touching.

[BkWurm1]

Noticed another moment, this time hand holding but it is about 98% off camera.  After Nyssa patches his hand up (and complains about not getting to kill her father -- FYI, is killing the father the Nanda Parbat version of divorce?) and mentions him wearing League armor kept him alive, Felicity says she'd like to think she had a hand in that as well and Oliver and Felicity share heart eyes but you can tell during that scene she reaches for his hand and then when he stands, she turns with him, her hand still in his and then you can see her hand drop back to her side but you never really get to see the hand holding...but it was there!!! 

 

:D  Yes I'm not hiding my happy shipper very well.   :p

[BkWurm1]

My 10 YO daughter: mom, I understand how they are going to make it without Oliver, but how will they do anything without Felicity?

Great episode. It actually just felt like a different show tonight - and that might have been a good thing. More later -- we have a long summer!

 

The thought crossed my mind as well.  I thought at first she would still have her computer programs and Ray there to help with the techie stuff but BOOM!  So now not so sure. 

 

I guess most of her programs are duplicated over in Central City so they could load them up and send new computers back to the team.  She can probably do most of her stuff remotely from anywhere with decent wifi. 

 

I'd also love for a scene where in an attempt not to make Oliver feel pressured to return, Felicity is hiding in the bathroom doing some hacking or overwatch type service for those back in Starling City.

 

I honestly don't think Oliver has any clue where they are going. They are driving wherever the sun takes them. About the only place I think they are not going is on boat. I feel like OQ will avoid boats at all costs moving forward, which might be a wise decision considering his nautical track record.

 

Add planes to that list of transportation choices to avoid, at least for a while.   

 

But I saw that setting him up to become Green Arrow more than anything, not that he was choosing Felicity over being a hero. Just that the Arrow was done for now and he was taking some time to figure out who he wants to be, with the woman he loves. He'll always be a hero, no matter what identity he wears, and Felicity will always love him. I was just baffled some people (not here, elsewhere online) were saying that the only way Olicity could happen was Oliver giving up being a hero and that was so not the point.

I agree with you.  I don't think he yet knows he's coming back as Green Arrow but I did see this "someone else" as the man that can combined Arrow and Oliver Queen.  That's the guy that he's trying to get to know better now.  

Edited May 14, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Guest]

Now I know why Roy never looked right in that red outfit - it's because it was always meant for Thea. She looked awesome! Also loved Diggle saying "Nice threads!" Aww. 

[Guest]

Oh, and I know some people think it was silly that Felicity used Ray's suit (whatever, she helped build the damn thing) but can we just have a moment to appreciate that a WOMAN saved the day there. The ladies were on fire tonight. LADIES. All the ladies. Not a damsel in distress in sight. I'm very happy about that.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Guest

[Xenith22]

Where to begin....

 

First...so much hate for Felicity's line about Oliver trying to kill them.   Really Felicity?  You really think that it's a funky coincidence that none of you were bleeding out of your orifices or dead?   How the crap can the writers be trying to sell Olicity as a couple when Felicity (after haviing just had Oliver tell her trust him multiple times) still thinks he was legitimately okay with killing them...

 

I get why the writers did not want Barry around, but still having him essentially go.  "Wish I could help you prevent millions of people from dying, but I need to talk to someone (about my mother) instead."  A CONVERSATION (even if it was about time traveling to save his mother) seems like it would not be quite as urgent as millions of people potentially dying from a hero standpoint....so Barry making that kind of excuse pretty much goes against everything he has been established to stand for as a heroic character.

 

Olivers grand plan to deal with Ra's and the AIRBORNE VIRUS was a plane crash.  No seriously....did he think through this plan at all?   I mean best case scenario where Ra's and Oliver go down with the plane and die...what does that mean for the virus?   How could he be certain that a plane crash would not break its container releasing it into the air?  Congrats on killing Ra's but still potentially dooming millions of people  *bangs head on desk*

 

We have an answer as to the REAL reason that Ra's chose Oliver to be his successor.  He found out that Damien was living in Starling City...and league laws apparently frown on destroying cities just because (which is why the league was mad at Malcolm)...so to give him an excuse to kill everyone in the city including Darhk and anyone he might care about/associate with Ra's chose Oliver from Starling to be his successor.   Makes about as much sense as the random prophecy reason...

 

Why did the League of Assassins guys infected with the virus need to be carrying empty briefcases around?  What was the point of that except to be unneccessarily conspicuous?

 

Captain Lance should probably resign...if despite being the CAPTAIN he is unable to deal with a couple officers that want to shoot someone against orders.

 

So....just asking but if Malcolm is the new Ra's...and league bylaws state that Ra's has to destroy the city where he is from....does Malcolm need to find another way to destroy Starling City next season?  Does he get to retroactively apply his earthquake machine usage destyroying the Glades as already filling that requirement significantly enough?  Or was he actually born somewhere else and so wiped out like Cleveland on the way to Nanda Parbat to take the throne?

 

Speaking of Starling City....remember that time that Ray and the mayor were all about changing the name to Star City?   A lot sure came of that...

 

As far as Oliver not being upset with Thea vigilanteeing...maybe he learned his lesson from Laurel?  I mean that Thea iis her own person who makes her own decisions.  Yelling at her or telling her not to do something is only going to serve to create a divide as she will do it anyways.  So just accept it and deal with it....

 

From  the way Oliver's conversation with Diggle ended, I can't help but wonder if Diggle going to take up the Arrow mantle for a bit next season?  Or is he going to establish his own new masked identity?

 

Loved that when Oliver was listing the reasons that he and Malcolm were enemies...that the thousands of dead people in the Glades was not one of them...

 

Did that explosion embed the shrinking Nanos in Ray rendering the suit obsolete?   Was Ray killed in the explosion (which given the time travel nature of the spin-off including the apparently still dead Sara means that a dead Ray Palmer would not be an impediment to his joining that team.)?

Edited May 14, 2015 by Xenith22

[Cthulhudrew]

 Obviously Ray's okay, just...smaller, but still...

 

The Red Arrow outfit looked better on Thea than it ever did on Roy. I don't know if it's because it was fitted to her better or it didn't go well with Colton's coloring.

 

I always thought that Roy looked really bug-eyed in costume. Something about his mask just never quite worked; otherwise he looked fine, but you just couldn't escape those bug-eyes.

 

As for Ray- I almost wonder if that was actually supposed to be his death, at least when you consider that one other character on Legends is already dead, too. Maybe he is going to be considered dead by the world at large, and that's why he is recruited for the team?

 

And Diggle- Oliver called him the team's rock several times. Is his codename going to be Sgt. Rock? :P

Edited May 14, 2015 by Cthulhudrew

[Cthulhudrew]

I guess they were worried casual viewers really would think this was the end of the show.

 

Considering that there were people who actually thought Ollie was dead at midseason and openly wondered how they would continue the show without him, perhaps not unwarranted concerns?

[millennium]

For some weeks now I have been conscientious about refraining from profanity on these boards, but what the FUCK?  WTF was THAT?

 

See, I'm at a huge disadvantage here because warm fuzzies of seeing Felicity looking cute in Ray's outfit aren't enough to salvage the episode for me.  Ditto for Thea looking darling in a red Arrow costume.   The uber-cliche of Oliver and Felicity driving into the sunset does nothing to quell my disgust for what this show has become.   What I saw tonight was a complete and total failure of storytelling.   That ending was not a resolution.   It was a repetition of the same lame-ass, wishy-washy nonsense that's been forced down our throats all season.   I am Oliver Queen (no I'm not).   I am the Arrow (no I'm not).  I am Heir to the Demon (no I'm not).   My name is Oliver Queen (but I'm not that man anymore).   I'm not even a hero anymore, because I quit.   Hmph.

 

True heroes don't quit.  Because they can't.   It's who they are.

 

I shouldn't be surprised.   The writers steal so much from Batman, I should have guessed they'd go for a Dark Knight-esque finale.

 

The worst episodes of this godawful season were the ones of Team Arrow functioning without Oliver.   Now, we're promised a Season 4 of more Team Arrow antics without Oliver?    Hey, maybe Barry Allen can quit Flash next and leave the crimefighting to Joe, Iris, Caitlin and Cisco.   Yeah, that would be a good show.

 

And Malcolm Merlin as Ra's?  Has no one on the writing staff at Arrow any respect for the character of Ra's at all?   I guess when you steal ideas from others, you don't have to treat them as well as you might if they were your own.

 

Oliver showed Nyssa no more respect than her father did -- and perhaps as much contempt.   He should have turned control over to her.   It was the natural thing to do.   Instead, he gives it to the man who KILLED Sara, an act which then forces Nyssa to KNEEL before the man who murdered her lover.

 

Fuck this show.   I'm tired of being treated like an idiot by that bald asshole.

Edited May 14, 2015 by millennium

[Starfish35]

Well that is that.

It was a decent finale, all things considered. I thought everyone got a lot of good stuff to do. I liked Nyssa and Oliver putting aside their differences and working together. I actually liked Laurel's scene with her father. Diggle's anger was painful but in the end I don't think he was being unreasonable. And I liked him using his military background to give Felicity a way to search for the League. And I'm actually really enjoying Ray now that he and Felicity aren't dating. I liked Barry's appearance (lol at giving away my identity to a super villain), and I'm glad Tatsu didn't die, but I wish she'd stuck around longer. And I liked that, whatever Quentin's issues with Oliver are, he didn't want him to get gunned down. And I liked the rise of Speedy (although my favorite scene of hers was still the one in Al Sah-him). She does look good in the outfit...Laurel, take notes.

My main issue is, as always, Malcolm, and Oliver just handing over the leadership of the LoA to a known mass murderer. Not to mention how frustrating it is that this season began with Sara's murder, and the man who orchestrated that has gotten off with no consequences. They said this whole season was driven by Sara's death, but in the end there was no justice for her. I realize that Nyssa hasn't forgotten, and perhaps that will have some payoff next season, but at the moment, the point stands.

I also was frustrated with Felicity demanding that Ray stop working on saving thousands of people and go save Oliver. It's not a make or break thing for me with the character, but....writers, don't do that. I could see that being her initial reaction, naturally, but to reiterate her demand after Ray reminds her of the stakes? No.

Her showing up in the suit was cute though. And am I the only one who noticed that it seemed like her glasses were crooked almost the whole episode (minor details)?

Ultimately, though, it wasn't enough to make up for the season as a whole. I'm not angry like I was at the end of last season. I'm just, quite frankly, exhausted. I don't know at this point whether I want to keep going with the show or not. Maybe after some time, and new spoilers, I'll regain some enthusiasm for the show. But honestly at this point, I hope I don't. Because this season overall has been one of the most unfun things ever, and I have too much RL stress to be dealing with it in my entertainment as well.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Starfish35

[Happy Harpy]

Season 3: Too little pay off for too much crap. 

The finale reflected that imo.

 

Loved the pay-off, but happy I spared myself the crap they brought this season. And I don't feel guilty about it. 

 

The pay-off: In spite of everything, Team Arrow's chemistry is still there. Felicity saving Oliver. Oliver, smiling and happy. Oliver and Felicity finally together -where they should have been since 3x01, but I digress. Oliver/Diggle -although I hate the strain on their relationship, but I digress. Thea kicking ass. Diggle being the boss, not Malcolm. Quentin warning Felicity about Oliver and hereby losing his red shirt -characterwise, a set back to end of S1, which is still better than his previous setback to the beginning  of S-1, but I digress. 

 

The saving graces: S.Amell, E.B.Rickards, D.Ramsey, W.Holland, K.Law, J.Barrowman's acting. I have no use for Malcolm without Moira or Walter and his place on the show is for me one of the source of the nonsensical writing this season, but Barrowman kills it and I love watching him onscreen. 

And oh, no baby mama resurfacing, because no. 

 

Hated: Nyssa having to kneel before Malcolm. Hated the fact that they had this offensive simulacre of a wedding between a gay woman and a straight man when it isn't valid, served no purpose (it wasn't even needed for Felicity to be mad at Oliver, she had plenty of reasons already) and therefore existed merely for shock value. Edit: Not that I want it valid or revisited in any way or form, which would only make it more offensive. Mention it was never legal if you must at some point, but otherwise never, ever mention it again.

 

Regrets: They toned down the creepiness and arrogance, but Ray is still flat for me. Laurel is tolerable when she does bitchy quips, but whenever they try anything else, make it emotional or badass, it's the same disaster as it always was for me. They didn't bother me in this one, considering that they basically had no significant role and little screentime. But that's actually my problem: Those characters (personality-wise etc.) don't work in anything above an underling/sidekick (not partner) position, therefore don't deserve more than this in this particular universe, so far at least. Yet simply because they have old school comic book counterparts, the writers ruined imo the season trying to make them fit as lead characters. Imho of course.

I wish so, so much that Roy and Sara, two characters well-defined, and integral imo to the Arrow universe, were still there instead of those two. They could have brought so much more substance and emotion  to this finale, let alone to the whole season for Sara (and more sense, too). 

 

"I'll never get used to this". Oh, Diggle, how I understand you. I can't with the superpowers. Not on this show (and I'm afraid, not on any but animated), it doesn't work for me, it especially doesn't work here imo because it creates huuuge plot holes and inconsistencies. 

Example: Ray can't save Oliver because "the lives of thousands, blah, blah" but Barry can leave for a personal vendetta or something whereas the lives of thousands are at stake. WTF.

 

It sounded like a series finale. I want to hope that it's in order to erase the mistakes made this season and go back to basics S2-A goodness. But I'm afraid it means they're going to go with more superpowers, more grand-guignolesque supernatural nonsense ala Nanba Parbat, more comics and because comics leading to bad writing. 

If Team Arrow is the center once again, I'll watch that "reboot" whatever it is. Otherwise...nope. 

Edited May 14, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[KayElektra]

Completely random question coming up, but I went digging in imdb after the big scene with everyone standing around once they got back to the new "lair" and I noticed Barrowman wasn't looking as tall as I'm used to.

 

Is this the tallest cast on average of any show on air?  It looks like Willa Holland is the shortest at 5'5, with Katie Cassidy at 5'6.  The other female actors in this ep are 5'8.  And all the guys are all 6'+.

 

Again, just a random question (and yes, I'm ignoring Roy because he wasn't in this ep).

Edited May 14, 2015 by KayElektra

[lovemytvshows]

Oliver showed Nyssa no more respect than her father did -- and perhaps as much contempt.   He should have turned control over to her.   It was the natural thing to do.   Instead, he gives it to the man who KILLED Sara, an act which then forces Nyssa to KNEEL before the man who murdered her lover.

 

Probably the thing that irks me the most out of everything else is that Nyssa (whom we all agree is a generally kickass character), keeps getting the short straw. Cut her some slack writers!

[Password]

But I saw that setting him up to become Green Arrow more than anything, not that he was choosing Felicity over being a hero. Just that the Arrow was done for now and he was taking some time to figure out who he wants to be, with the woman he loves. He'll always be a hero, no matter what identity he wears, and Felicity will always love him. I was just baffled some people (not here, elsewhere online) were saying that the only way Olicity could happen was Oliver giving up being a hero and that was so not the point.

I think this is the perfect summation of what happened in the episode. And what better person to get to know yourself better with than the person who has always known who you are.

[Password]

Felicity delivered one of the best lines of the series: Don't fight to die. Fight to live.

Full. Of. Yes.

[foreverevolving]

I'm sick so i skipped most of the comments on page 3...

 

Has anyone noticed and/or commented that in the car scene Felicity is wearing white?

 

Also: how the hell did tiny 5`6(?)` Felicity fit into Ray 6`4(?) ish long costume? that was the second thing i thought about when I saw her. the first thing was squeal (quietly I was on the bus).

 

 

That was a really good finale.

I just wish we would have gotten to see the moment Oliver realized he wanted to be with Felicity rather than being Arrow, because I went like "wait what? I'm happy for you Oliver, but this was a little bit out of left field even for when, especially when the last time prior to NP sexlicity scenes you were still on the "you know why i can't be with you" wagon.

 

Oh, Nyssa is most definitely! plotting to kill Malcolm. With that being said the only thing I could think of: so if Nyssa back to the LoA who's gonna train Laurel now? and than I had a happy thought: maybe this means Laurel will be killed over the summer? only to realize that it will never happen.

I was actually surprised the show really ended with Malcolm as Ra's I was sure it would end up showing him bringing the finger thingie to Damian.

 

speaking of Damian, someone in the first page mentioned how he obviously can't be Felicity father since she would have recognized the name.. to which I say: he could have assumed an Alias name. I think it is fair to say that unlike Ra's and the LoA Damian and his organization are very 21st century. while Ra's is very old fashioned in his travels in terms of accommodations and so forth, Damian was living in a vary nice modern apartment or hotel room, with employees who dress modernly (suits rather than old fashioned garb (sp). which Is interesting since they are contemporary. Ra's shortcoming was that he was still stuck in the olden days, while I think we can agree that Damian has moved forward with the times if he wanted to be able to live out in the open without looking out of place.

 

Also: during Lance and buckles conversation I wasn't sure who i wanted to throttle more, Lance for falling back into the bottle (because seriously writers?!) or buckles for actually complaining about her father laying to her and than bitching about it... Girl you lost the right to tell him that when you chose to lie to him about THE DEATH OF HIS DAUGHTER!!! if anyone is the bigger lier it's you. The only reason he is back to drinking is because of YOU!! and your stupid ass lie!! you don't get to tell him back about lying. everything shitty decision he has done since finding out was because you were a fucking selfish ass hole.

Edited May 14, 2015 by foreverevolving

[Genki]

Well it was enough.

 

Even without Zombie Tommy, there was enough in this episode to not make this season a total waste, for me. In fact I'm left with an Oliver 'saved by Felicity' size grin on my face and the Olicity Theme song playing in my shipper heart.

 

I had some hope for this episode when I got home from work and saw the the bitterness thread had NO NEW POSTS!

 

There are of course some minor gripes:

 

Lets forget about, and never speak of, the not-legal-in-any-way marriage.

 

Still not sure why, in story, it had to be Sara that was killed.

 

When did Malcolm inoculate Thea (who was adorable as Speedy) from the virus?

 

Can we have Tatsu back next season please??!!?!?!?

 

Diggle don't stay too mad at Oliver for too long, you are a fantastic man and glad to see the bromance wasn't completely broken.

 

Laurel still brushes over the fact that she made the decision to lie to Quentin, it was annoying and having her big dramatic scene about him being an alcoholic was puzzling, it was forced and out of place in the episode to me. But Glad Lance didn't bite it.

 

Also the no overt physical Olicity displays of affection was odd IMO, I hope it was't so people don't cry Adultery, because of a sham wedding, which added nothing to the narrative. However the emotional intimacy was GLORIOUS. I love Oliver tearing up and nodding to Felicity after her fight to live speech (I feel like it finally, finally sunk into his beautiful thick skull), I might have cursed her phone for interrupting.

 

Love hearing about the reoccurring dream/nightmare and Oliver opening up to Felicity. To me that shows Oliver really did want to be with Felicity for quite a while, but thought he couldn't.

 

The saving of Oliver was magnificent, I gasped when he was shot and he fell off the Dam & this is finally a time when I didn't mind a retread of 3A in 3B. I liked that instead of getting stabbed and falling to his death, Oliver beats Ra's and even though he is shot the fall ends differently, and his SMILE!! Lordy that smile!! 

 

I will need to go to the Felicity thread during hiatus to speak of how awesome, adorable and kick-ass she was this episode.

 

I think Ra's was ready to lose to his "heir", he got his way so he allowed Oliver to win, also Malcolm as Ra's is way more interesting to me. Sure I wanted Nyssa to lead the League, but I'm intrigued by the adversarial possibilities between them. I like the thought of Malcolm trying to run the LOA and being undermined by Nyssa, at every turn. Be careful what you wish for Malcolm, that girl is gunning for you. 

 

Also with Ra's out of the way it seems Damina Dark is going to going come out of the shadows and I'm looking forward to it. They already set him up pretty interestingly and I hope DD's minion survived, since I liked his Evil-Alfred vibe.

 

 I think it is fair to say that unlike Ra's and the LoA Damian and his organization are very 21st century. while Ra's is very old fashioned in his travels in terms of accommodations and so forth, Damian was living in a vary nice modern apartment or hotel room, with employees who dress modernly (suits rather than old fashioned garb (sp). which Is interesting since they are contemporary. Ra's shortcoming was that he was still stuck in the olden days, while I think we can agree that Damian has moved forward with the times if he wanted to be able to live out in the open without looking out of place.

 

 

I agree and that is part of why I find H.I.V.E. very interesting, the other reasons are, I think they will be used to bond Olvier and Diggle again, bring in Felicity's Father and give Malcolm grief.

 

The mean petty part of me chuckled at Palmer Tech (and Ray) blowing up (bring on Queen Inc & it's CEO Felicity Smaok), I was of course assuming no innocent bystanders, workers cleaners or animals were injured. Also I had a crack theory that most the the "Legends of Tomorrow" Characters will be dead, or presumed dead or raised form the dead and this just gave it more credence to it.

 

I'm satisfied and looking forward to next season...

[LisaM]

Loved it! Screamed like a little kid when Felicity showed up wearing the Atom suit and when Thea showed up dressed in Roy's old costume. Loved seeing Happy Oliver. I hope that Nyssa becomes a regular next season. Great character.

[tv echo]

Can I say something strange.  I'm happy... too.

 

Yes, this episode had several problems.  But you know what?  I just don't care.  After this dark and generally depressing season, I'm glad for the win.  So focusing on the positive...

 

Best line of the night -- Barry: "You guys have a hot tub? Nice."  (upon seeing the LP)

 

Second best line of the night -- Felicity: "According to internal emails, the floor was shut down for a Damien Darhk.  A name like that has to be an alias."

 

When Malcolm starts telling TA what each should do, they remain unmoving ("I"m sorry.  Did I mumble?") until Diggle gives them the go-ahead. 

 

When Oliver and Nyssa drop into PT, everyone knows to leave Oliver alone with Diggle and Felicity.  And Diggle refers to himself and Felicity as the two people closest to Oliver.  Original TA - yay!

 

TA's survival due to inoculation (rather than switched vials) works so that they can later track down the "four instruments of death" without fear of infection.

 

Felicity once again gives Oliver the much-needed pep talk that proves key to his defeat of Ra's.  "Don't fight to die.  Fight to live."

 

Thea dons the red Arsenal outfit (which magically fits her even though WH is 5'5") and saves Diggle from death.  (I guess this is her first knowing kill?)  She is later officially christened Speedy by Oliver.

 

In Oliver's final duel with Ra's, he ends up disarmed and kneeling just like in the first duel.  But instead of giving up and waiting to be stabbed, Oliver fights back, surprises the overconfident Ra's and gets the upper hand.  No more 'death wish' Oliver.  He's now "will to live" Oliver.  (At least that's how I rationalize how Oliver beat Ra's.)

 

Felicity dons the Atom suit (which magically fits her even though EBR is 5'5") and swoops in to save Oliver from tumbling to his death over the dam waterfall.  "If I could figure out how to get this thing off, I would be kissing you right now."  (Yes, it was a very Pepper Potts moment, but I confess, I cheered.)

 

Oliver finally acknowledges that he needed help from TA.  He also finally acknowledges the competence of Thea, Laurel and Ray to protect SC, so he doesn't have to anymore.  He retires from crimefighting.  (I'm betting it's temporary - but hey, he deserves a vacation.)

 

Diggle is already on his way to reconciling with Oliver.  He's probably also getting a costume next season.  Heavy foreshadowing there.

 

Oliver finally tells Felicity that he wants to be with her.  Oliver smiles!

 

Malcolm becomes the new Ra's. Surprising... and yet not.  (I'm betting Nyssa gets her revenge in S4, probably after Malcolm/LOA helps TA defeat Damien Dahrk.)

 

Ray starts working on the miniaturization of his Atom suit.  Explosion!  No worries. (I'm betting this scene is what was added, plus MG's PSA, to extend the episode an extra two minutes.)

 

Oliver and Felicity drive off together so that he can discover a little more about the person he has become.  (Yes, leave SC!  Leave all the angst and tears, character propping, OOC writing, and plot holes behind!  Leave and be happy!)

 

... And if it all falls apart next season, I can just stop watching this often frustrating show and pretend it ended after three seasons (with Oliver and Felicity traveling the world, fighting bad guys along the way, and being happy).

 

Question of the Day: What was Damien Dahrk doing in SC in the first place?

Edited May 14, 2015 by tv echo

[bethy]

I so appreciated how they left things with Oliver and Diggle. I mean, wow. Two grown men who are able to articulate how they are felling - one saying he's angry and that things have changed, the other able to acknowledge that and respect his friend's decision, while hoping it will change. This is how adults behave. Well done.

[kes0704]

I loved this episode and it's the first one I've watched in ages that I didn't fast forward any scenes. I even watched LL / QL and their ill-timed family drama play out and all of the flashbacks.

The travel time between NP and SC is still wonky. Oliver, Ra's, Nyssa and various LOA minions left NP before Barry showed up to set TA and friends free yet somehow everyone arrived in SC around the same time.

A happy Oliver Queen makes me strangely happy too and now I'm back on board and invested in what season 4 will bring.

[tv echo]

Regarding the issue of whether Oliver is choosing to be with Felicity only because he can no longer be the Arrow...

 

Oliver: "Ra's took the Arrow identity from me. I couldn't be that person even if I wanted to be. And I don't want to be. I told you that... I couldn't be the Arrow and be with you. I want to be with you. You told me that I have become someone else, and I would like to... maybe discover a little more about that person. If you'll come with me."

 

I interpret his words to mean that, even if he could still be the Arrow, he doesn't want to be the Arrow regardless.  The Arrow is a ruthless torturer and killer.  OQ is someone who doesn't fight crime.  He's now someone else, he's something else that's neither 'OQ' or 'the Arrow'.  And that person wants to be with Felicity.  As someone else said, it doesn't mean that he's not a hero.  He just needs time to figure out who he is now and what he wants to do.

Edited May 14, 2015 by tv echo

[foreverevolving]

I didn't mind Roy's suit fitting Thea height wise, since well CH is kind of a shorty (well not to me I'm 5`2 so for me he is average male height.

but i was more concerned with the width fit, since WH is much smaller than CH who is very bulky.

I fanwanked that thea is a master seamsters and refitted the outfit, or she contacted that guy Team Arrow use in the 2.5 comics and had him do the job.

[Morrigan2575]

I apologize if i this was already answered but, who got the 4th guy?

 

At the check in you had Arrow, Diggle, MM and L/N

 

Arrow gets called off to fight Ra's

Diggle/Thea get the first guy and realize it's in the blood

MM snaps 2nd guys neck

L/N knocks out dude #3.

 

What happened to the 4th guy?

Edited May 14, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[raytch]

Well that wasn't so bad was it?

 

I'm just glad the season is over and hopefully season 4 will have season 2's consistency!

 

We pretty much knew how things were gonna go down except Ray exploding.

 

I don't think we've ever seen Oliver smile so much in one episode. Felicity in the ATOM suit is the most adorable thing period.

 

Laurel wasn't so bad this episode. I just... WHY DOES SHE NOT WEAR A MASK? WHAT IS THE POINT OF ALL THAT LEATHER? (I get she looks hot and her hair is just glorious but come on show!)

Also, yes how dare she call her dad on lying about drinking when she drove him straight to it. Like seriously, she practically put him in the car, drove him to the bar, ordered a bottle of scotch for him, poured him a glass and then blamed him for drinking.

I hope the writers figure out how to write her in season 4, because I don't mind her so much, and I liked Katie Cassidy since Gossip Girl.

 

I'm SO happy that were done with the LoA and Ras. I still can't get over the fact that Ras was so vague as a villain, and the LoA were taken down by a newbie fighter Laurel all though they are some of the best warriors in the world.

I don't get how Malcom gets to be the next Ras, and moreover how Oliver actually handed it to him.

Nyssa deserved that throne. But so much for a woman taking any agency on the CW.

 

Still, I'm willing to overlook all of this, and look forward for next season.

I didn't mind Roy's suit fitting Thea height wise, since well CH is kind of a shorty (well not to me I'm 5`2 so for me he is average male height.

but i was more concerned with the width fit, since WH is much smaller than CH who is very bulky.

I fanwanked that thea is a master seamsters and refitted the outfit, or she contacted that guy Team Arrow use in the 2.5 comics and had him do the job.

 

Thea is a fashionista at heart, I'm sure she had the jacket remodeled to fit her size.

 

 

 

ETA I'm glad Felicity's crytalking voice was kept to a minimum this episode. If it shows up again next season, I will probably start skipping through her scenes. I love this girl, but I've reached my limit on the crytalking voice. For real. 

Edited May 14, 2015 by raytch

[mybabyaidan]

But, on the other hand, what the hell does the League even do? It seems like they just hang around, looking dramatic. 

 

  

And chill in the hot tub.

I only stick around for Laurel anyway(I know Major unpopular opinion but I like the girl, don't judge me

  

I like her too, you're not alone.

True...I don't quite get why he had to leave town. For a brief break..ok

For good?

I can't really see Oliver hanging out in Starling and NOT getting involved with the heroics. It's not in him. So I think he realized he needed to get away (not forever) to explore his relationship with felicity without a new crisis developing every 2 seconds. If they stayed in Starling, I just can't see Ollie standing aside while the others save the day.

[Carrie Ann]

I didn't mind Roy's suit fitting Thea height wise, since well CH is kind of a shorty (well not to me I'm 5`2 so for me he is average male height.

but i was more concerned with the width fit, since WH is much smaller than CH who is very bulky.

 

Actually, of all the hilarious Sisterhood of the Traveling Supersuit antics on this show, Thea fitting into Roy's suit makes the most sense. It has laces like a corset on the bodice and legs, so she could cinch it to her own proportions. How Dig and Roy fit in the Arrow suit, or most hilarious of all, Felicity fit in the Atom suit, we will never know. I guess there is magic on Arrow!

 

I'm still kind of conflicted about this episode. I think about 3/4 of it was really strong. The plane scene was great--the fight choreography felt on par with some of the best the show has ever done (starting with Oliver tossing Nyssa that sword and her immediately wielding it). I also loved the hotel scene when they were after Damien Darhk, especially Diggle's quick takedown of those two guards. He is SO badass and I hate that that was squandered this season.

 

I also felt the best O/F scene was the one where he told her about his dream and she told him to fight to live. Second best was the Atom suit bit and Oliver's little puppy face. God they are so cute. Go be happy, you precious little babies.

 

But the ending wrap-up stuff left a bad taste in my mouth, and I ended up feeling a little dissatisfied. I'm really unhappy with the resolution of Ra's and Malcolm, because for all the gross treatment of the female characters this season, none of them got to enact any kind of justice. Sara is still dead,

even though we know she will appear on the spinoff.

Thea had to smile at the man who drugged and exploited her, and tell him that he kept his promise to her. Nyssa was not allowed to kill Ra's, is still married to Oliver, and had to effing KNEEL before Malcolm.

 

And yes, Ra's died. Boohoo, that's what he wanted. He wanted Oliver to become Ra's, so in a twisted way, he got all his wishes. And MALCOLM GD MERLYN definitely got his heart's desire. All the power, no consequences. 

Edited May 14, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[ostentatious]

Regarding the issue of whether Oliver is choosing to be with Felicity only because he can no longer be the Arrow...

Oliver: "Ra's took the Arrow identity from me. I couldn't be that person even if I wanted to be. And I don't want to be. I told you that... I couldn't be the Arrow and be with you. I want to be with you. You told me that I have become someone else, and I would like to... maybe discover a little more about that person. If you'll come with me."

I interpret his words to mean that, even if he could still be the Arrow, he doesn't want to be the Arrow regardless. The Arrow is a ruthless torturer and killer. OQ is someone who doesn't fight crime. He's now someone else, he's something else that's neither 'OQ' or 'the Arrow'. And that person wants to be with Felicity. As someone else said, it doesn't mean that he's not a hero. He just needs time to figure out who he is now and what he wants to do.

I just saw no character arc toward this. I didn't see him changing, I didn't see epiphanies. I asked a few days back in the Relationships thread, if Olicity ends up together in the finale, when did he actually change his mind?

I still don't see it. I think that's a nice speech. They just didn't earn it by showing me the path. There are a lot of dots, don't get me wrong. I mean, he could've come back from "dying" in the midseason finale changed, and by could've I mean should've, they totally whiffed that. None of the frenzied cascade of plot points since then seem to have affected him. I doubt even Stephen could draw me a map of his internal arc this season. Many dots, but they didn't connect any of them with lines.

I really hope that Wendy Mericle will sit down and truly map out what people WANT. In season three what did Oliver want? What did Ra's want? What did Malcolm want? What did Ray want? I know what Dig and Felicity wanted, but their WANTS didn't drive this dumbass plot.

And speaking of Ray. Okay, watching Oliver and Barry together really drives home the problem with Ray. The problem is that they didn't think at all about what Ray meant to Oliver himself. What relationship will they have going forward? What do they think about each other? Yes Ray being isolated meant he didn't get enjoyable scenes with the group but he meant NOTHING to Oliver, and he should've meant...everything. Raylicity is fine but it should've been there to further illustrate what Ray meant in Oliver's life. I can see a lot of dots! A lot of things he could've meant. But again, they didn't connect any.

I have so many issues with this season that are about the nonsense plots and how everything connected to MM and RAG was horribly executed, but none of that would matter if the characters remained consistent. Slade had nonsense going on, but you always knew what he wanted.

Edited May 14, 2015 by ostentatious