S03.E23: My Name Is Oliver Queen

[catrox14]

I figured Thea had enough time to tailor the suit herself or send it out for tailoring. It's not like they totally changed the suit. They just made it smaller. Unlike with Laurel's which was completely different and it was never even acknowledged that it was different. 

Edited May 14, 2015 by catrox14

[raytch]

Carrie Ann, I actually didn't mind that we didn't see Sarah. I'd rather have this showcased on the new spinoff. Having Arrow be the backdrop of the new series more than it was season with all the Ray stuff would have been too forced. Not to mention that it would've been impossible to resurrect Sarah in one scene as I'm sure it's something that needs more development.

[Angel12d]

But the ending wrap-up stuff left a bad taste in my mouth, and I ended up feeling a little dissatisfied. I'm really unhappy with the resolution of Ra's and Malcolm, because for all the gross treatment of the female characters this season, none of them got to enact any kind of justice. Sara is still dead,

even though we know she will appear on the spinoff.

Thea had to smile at the man who drugged and exploited her, and tell him that he kept his promise to her. Nyssa was not allowed to kill Ra's, is still married to Oliver, and had to effing KNEEL before Malcolm.

 

Yes, this. I fear this is going to be a problem in s4 actually because yet again, they're warping everything just so Malcolm has a reason to be on the show. I mean, it made sense that Malcolm was a bad guy all along but Nyssa should have been the new Ra's. Thea should have told her father to suck it. Laurel should have been given the right to first punch before they all beat him to death. (This was my dream, let me have it.)

 

I just hate that in all of it there was no justice for Sara's murder. HATE.

[Primetimer]

Oliver comes back to Starling City for a climactic battle. Then he goes on vacation. Seriously.

Read the story

[Kordi]

I just saw no character arc toward this. I didn't see him changing, I didn't see epiphanies. I asked a few days back in the Relationships thread, if Olicity ends up together in the finale, when did he actually change his mind?

I still don't see it. I think that's a nice speech. They just didn't earn it by showing me the path. There are a lot of dots,[...] but they didn't connect any of them with lines.

Thank you so much, ostentatious, for putting words to my gut reactions. That's exactly what I want to say, too. Of course, as a devout Olicity shipper I am happy to see that Oliver has changed his mind. And there have been MANY occasions for him throughout this season that could have initiated some kind of personal growth on his part. But there hasn't been any growth. At least it hasn't been shown to us. Now, it sort of just happened. Finally. I feel relieved. But I feel unsatisfied, too.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Kordi

[tv echo]

Courtesy of Olicity Queen...

 

Olicity 3.23 Part 3 "Don't fight to die. Fight to live"

 

Olicity 3.23 Part 4 Heroes. Both of them. :) + "It's Oliver!" + "...I'd be kissing you right now"

 

Olicity 3.23 Part 5 "I wanna be with you"

 

Olicity 3.23 Part 6 "I'm happy" :) :) :) :) :)

[FireFoxy]

This season was a bit of a mess but I would be lying if I said I didn't smile a lot during the episode. Thea as Speedy, Felicity kicking ass, Olicity FINALLY being together an happy, Barry being adorable, OG Team Arrow working together, Ray being awesome and becoming ATOM, Nyssa living to fight another day. On the other hand, Det. Lance falling off the wagon was sad but I really enjoyed Laurel's confrontation scene and I feel this will be a sl that will play out in S4. I also thought the set up for Damien Darhk was brilliant. I just hope he isn't a huge flop like Ra's. And Oliver you idiot! Handing the League over to Malcolm won't end well. I also wanted Nyssa to be the one to kill Ra's. I also want more Nyssa/Laurel and more Tatsu.

On a shipper note, I loooove how Oliver gave up being The Arrow to be with Felicity. Considering he only returned home to seek revenge and thought he had no chance of finding happiness ever again, that just made me so, so happy that Felicity could cause him to find that light and happiness. I truly hope the show leaves them happy together. We have seen how awesome they work when they are a united front. No need for angst, they are better as a unit.

[wonderwall]

I honestly thought that the 'epiphany' moment was when Felicity told Oliver "Don't fight to die, fight to live", and I think the only reason why that struck Oliver was because in the Flash episode recently, he discovered that he's going to live till he's 80-something. I don't think it was properly/explicitly shown, but it was there, imo. As much as some people hate it, Felicity telling Oliver to live because he has something to live for will be one of the reasons why Oliver will grow to become Green Arrow. Comic purists should thank her for that tbqh.

 

I felt like what changed Oliver's mind was Felicity and her willingness to not write him off. I honestly don't think Oliver would be in the position he is in now (happy with Felicity trying to figure out who he is) if Felicity didn't forgive him for 'killing' them and marrying Nyssa.

[raytch]

I just saw no character arc toward this. I didn't see him changing, I didn't see epiphanies. I asked a few days back in the Relationships thread, if Olicity ends up together in the finale, when did he actually change his mind?

I still don't see it. I think that's a nice speech. They just didn't earn it by showing me the path. There are a lot of dots, don't get me wrong. I mean, he could've come back from "dying" in the midseason finale changed, and by could've I mean should've, they totally whiffed that. None of the frenzied cascade of plot points since then seem to have affected him. I doubt even Stephen could draw me a map of his internal arc this season. Many dots, but they didn't connect any of them with lines.

I really hope that Wendy Mericle will sit down and truly map out what people WANT. In season three what did Oliver want? What did Ra's want? What did Malcolm want? What did Ray want? I know what Dig and Felicity wanted, but their WANTS didn't drive this dumbass plot.

And speaking of Ray. Okay, watching Oliver and Barry together really drives home the problem with Ray. The problem is that they didn't think at all about what Ray meant to Oliver himself. What relationship will they have going forward? What do they think about each other? Yes Ray being isolated meant he didn't get enjoyable scenes with the group but he meant NOTHING to Oliver, and he should've meant...everything. Raylicity is fine but it should've been there to further illustrate what Ray meant in Oliver's life. I can see a lot of dots! A lot of things he could've meant. But again, they didn't connect any.

I have so many issues with this season that are about the nonsense plots and how everything connected to MM and RAG was horribly executed, but none of that would matter if the characters remained consistent. Slade had nonsense going on, but you always knew what he wanted.

 

This season's main idea has been about being stuck in vicious cycles, not knowing exactly what it is the characters are fighting for (and thus how do they go about fighting?) and breaking Oliver/The Arrow, which asked a very interesting question in the process: Who is Oliver/Arrow without all the things that make him himself?

It wasn't about Oliver going to the dark side and back like in the previous seasons, it was more about who he would become once everything that made him who he was was taken from him.

 

My main problem is that this was all was reversed when it turned out that Oliver was never brainwashed, so when we thought that he had become the complete lack and absence of everything that made himself, we were simply seeing the same old Oliver changing his game and playing whatever part he had to in order to take down Ras'. Which is not so bad, but it would have been more interesting to see the other option explored since it's been building up since the beginning of the season.

 

Ras wasn't a bad villain as an idea, because I think the writers were aiming to have him in the same cycle as Oliver. Oliver lost his status as Protector of SC, the same way Ras came to his end of days as the leader of the LoA. It was just an arc that was very hard to execute on TV, let alone on a show on the CW. The main idea of the season was ambitious, and when it worked it worked really well (Public Enemy, Broken Arrow among others) and when it failed it failed drastically (The Offer, and This is your Sword). I'm only referring to episodes from the back half of the season as I honestly can't remember specifically the earlier episodes.

 

As to Ray, I think he was forced a bit too much on us from the beginning, and his involvement with Felicity did not help his relationship with Oliver. I'm guessing they will have the awkward exes relationship next season and then go from there?

Edited May 14, 2015 by raytch

[tv echo]

If Felicity can become friends with Laurel (Oliver's ex), then Oliver should be able to become friends with Ray (Felicity's ex).

[kismet]

Noticed another moment, this time hand holding but it is about 98% off camera.  After Nyssa patches his hand up (and complains about not getting to kill her father -- FYI, is killing the father the Nanda Parbat version of divorce?) and mentions him wearing League armor kept him alive, Felicity says she'd like to think she had a hand in that as well and Oliver and Felicity share heart eyes but you can tell during that scene she reaches for his hand and then when he stands, she turns with him, her hand still in his and then you can see her hand drop back to her side but you never really get to see the hand holding...but it was there!!! 

 

:D  Yes I'm not hiding my happy shipper very well.   :p

There was also the shoulder kissing by Felicity while he was still talking to everybody after he asked her to go with him. I also swear if they panned the camera down there was hand holding or arm caressing.

The PDA was subtle & intimate which I enjoyed. There was so much in their looks & overall body positioning/angling that to me felt more intimate than if they were actually touching. The only time I was like just kiss her was after his hand was fixed and she said something like Id like to think I had something to do with that. That felt like a perfect pecking moment.

All I gotta say is it hit me smack in the feels when he told her that he had been dreaming about her every night since the fall. To me that was the sweetest & most romantic thing I thought I would never hear on a show like Arrow. It really was a nice call back to the dream on the plane & even his comments about Barry dreaming about her. The boy has for it pretty bad. It broke my heart that he felt he couldn't be with her, even though his subconscious & heart clearly wanted to be with her. But then my heart was healed by that amazing smile after the Felicity rescue.

[ostentatious]

I honestly thought that the 'epiphany' moment was when Felicity told Oliver "Don't fight to die, fight to live", and I think the only reason why that struck Oliver was because in the Flash episode recently, he discovered that he's going to live till he's 80-something. I don't think it was properly/explicitly shown, but it was there, imo. As much as some people hate it, Felicity telling Oliver to live because he has something to live for will be one of the reasons why Oliver will grow to become Green Arrow. Comic purists should thank her for that tbqh.

 

I felt like what changed Oliver's mind was Felicity and her willingness to not write him off. I honestly don't think Oliver would be in the position he is in now (happy with Felicity trying to figure out who he is) if Felicity didn't forgive him for 'killing' them and marrying Nyssa.

 

Exactly, this is a dot. There are dozens of dots. There just aren't lines connecting them.

 

And sure, Oliver could be friends with Felicity's ex, but that isn't even what I mean. I mean the relationship between Oliver and Ray needed to be Ray's primary relationship. This is Oliver's show, characters have to exist in relation to him. "Briefly dating the woman Oliver wants" isn't a relationship between Oliver and Ray. And Ray isn't on the show anymore. 

 

And Ray was set up as a compare/contrast to Oliver...but the problem is they didn't let that comparison live in *Oliver's* head. They only let Felicity grapple with it. OLIVER should've been grappling with this psychologically or what is the point of making Ray a version of Oliver? Let Felicity have what she had, just make sure it's primarily about what Ray means to Oliver.

[Carrie Ann]

Carrie Ann, I actually didn't mind that we didn't see Sarah. I'd rather have this showcased on the new spinoff. Having Arrow be the backdrop of the new series more than it was season with all the Ray stuff would have been too forced. Not to mention that it would've been impossible to resurrect Sarah in one scene as I'm sure it's something that needs more development.

 

I wasn't actually hoping for Sara to show up in the finale--I gave up hope of that a few weeks ago when MG said we wouldn't see CL anymore this season.

But the spinoff has a midseason premiere, and the EPs have said that Sara's return will start on Arrow and The Flash, so I expect we'll see her in the fall.

But as it is, she's just another female character who was mistreated with zero justice. Which brings me to this point:

 

Yes, this. I fear this is going to be a problem in s4 actually because yet again, they're warping everything just so Malcolm has a reason to be on the show. I mean, it made sense that Malcolm was a bad guy all along but Nyssa should have been the new Ra's. Thea should have told her father to suck it. Laurel should have been given the right to first punch before they all beat him to death. (This was my dream, let me have it.)

 

I just hate that in all of it there was no justice for Sara's murder. HATE.

 

I actually don't want Nyssa to be Ra's, because I love her and want the best for her. And awhile back, I said that if the EPs were dead-set on keeping JB around, then the best option IMO would be for Malcolm to become Ra's. Because it keeps two major DC villains in the picture, and Malcolm and the LOA (like Nyssa last season) can be helpful at times, but never completely trusted. It's good for story mining.

 

So I'm okay with that side of it--the Malcolm becomes Ra's side--but everything else that was frustrating around it is so easily fixable, and would be so much better with just a few tiny tweaks that would take no time at all.

 

First--it should have been a condition to handing over the Claw to the Kingdom that the marriage be invalidated, and that Nyssa could choose to do whatever she wanted afterward. The scene in NP should have gone like this: "As Ra's al Ghul, out of respect to my predecessor, I declare your marriage to Oliver Queen immediately dissolved. And now, you have a choice. Kneel before me and pledge your service to Ra's al Ghul, or leave this place and never return." And then Nyssa could have spit in his stupid face, vowed vengeance for Sara, and returned to Starling to continue training Laurel and helping the other heroes.

 

This would have solved a million problems at once. The marriage thing, allowing Nyssa to have agency, the Laurel issue, and the question of Starling really being safe without Oliver. Dig, Thea, and Laurel are great, but none of them are equal to Oliver. Only Nyssa is. And if you tell me that Nyssa is training Laurel for the next five months, it will be easier to swallow when Laurel is magically an expert martial artist next fall (which she absolutely will be).

 

And that Thea/Malcolm conversation could have been SO much better if instead of basically thanking him for making her strong, which he DIDN'T, she had been more menacing and scary. She could have said, "You promised to make me strong, and now I am. Someday, you will regret that." Which also would have hinted that there is still the issue of the darkness in her soul after her LP resurrection.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[wonderwall]

Exactly, this is a dot. There are dozens of dots. There just aren't lines connecting them.

 

This is why I sort of wish Oliver brought up the fact that he is going to live till he's in his 80s in the finale. That would've been a good connective line. All the parts for the resolution of his identity crisis was there, there was just an issue of execution. Nevertheless, I'm just happy Oliver is happy and I don't really care how he got there lmao

[tarotx]

I think being told he had a good chance of living well into his 80's helped Oliver accept the chance of happiness. On top of his dreams of rebirth where he has a chance to have happiness. Which really started as he was recovering from "death".

Oliver still doesn't have great self respect. He is willing to die for every one, and have everyone choose to risk their lives for good but he still has a while to go to accept that he can be the good man that others risk their lives for. I don't think he can be a 100% team player until he accepts the "good" about himself.

But he's willing to be happy which is a good step. Though a baby one...

So the point of the s3 Flashbacks was to get Oliver to the point he's willing to torture as punishment? It was caused by a child's death. An innocent he cared about but couldn't save.

Edited May 14, 2015 by tarotx

[InsertWordHere]

With Felicity putting on the ATOM suit, and Thea's redone Arsenal outfit, Quentin is now the only current regular character who hasn't donned some type of super hero mask at some point. 

[arjumand]

I like [Laurel] too, you're not alone.

 

 

I can honestly say I've liked Laurel more in this episode than I have all season, if not in the entire series. I enjoyed her telling her father that the pity party was over, and he needed to get over it. It sort of mirrors how he was helping her in Season 2.

 

Well, as regards the season finale, well. I mean, don't get me wrong I like it - I can't help loving Oliver and Felicity as a couple: it's so rare that a tv couple have such amazing unplanned chemistry and the show actually lets them run with it. It's so rare that about two-third into the episode I started wondering if the whole resolution was Oliver's dream as he floated down the river, two bullets in his chest. I had read about the Porsche road-trip with Felicity spoiler, and I firmly believed it was a dying dream - camera pans up from Oliver's dying body - cut to credits.

 

This ending is nice, I guess? I like that Oliver actually killed R'as al Ghul, as I was wondering if that would happen as he's such a famous DC villain - making "R'as al Ghul" a title was a smart move. And now we know what was Merlyn's game - it was a pretty clever one too. How do you stop the unstoppable monster from chasing you? Become the monster. I too wanted Nyssa to have more agency, though. On the other hand, as Nyssa is one of the good guys, you can't have her kill her father - that's a supervillain origin story.

 

And now I'm insanely curious about next year - especially the flashbacks.

[wonderwall]

I think the only thing regarding Olicity that I didn't really like was Felicity quitting her job. to go away with Oliver. I need her to come back and run the company :p

[nksarmi]

Im sorta glad that Malcolm became the next Ras. It fulfills what I believe was his agenda all along. I never really saw him on a redemption arc. Plus as head of LoA he can be a frenemy to OQ without having to be in SC or every major plot line of s4. In many ways its the best solution for his character because it removes him from the main plot, but does not require him to be fit into the B plots.

 

It was really sad that Nyssa was not able to kill him or her father. But I think that only means more building drama in the next seasons. Now we have more legit reasons to bring Nyssa on as a recurring member and frankly her & MM being mortal enemies is kinda exciting. I think it will lead to awesome fights in future seasons. I also wonder if MM will reveal that he never killed Sara and this has all been part of his plot as well. I still think Sara will be revealed as never being murdered whenever they bring her back in s4. But that's just wild speculation on my part.

I had a moment when she told him that he took Sara away from her that I expected him to say "and I will give her back." Then after she knelt, I thought he still might go there and have her walk out in costume, but they didn't. 

[tv echo]

I admit that I was perplexed about Ray transferring ownership of PT to Felicity last week and then Felicity leaving SC this week.  The Vulture reviewer brought up the idea that Ray disappears and Felicity's name listed on record as the owner of PT is what brings her and Oliver back to SC.  Another reviewer brought up the idea that Ray disappears and Felicity is a suspect in his presumed "death".

 

I think that leaving Malcolm and Nyssa where they are now at the end of S3 is due to some planned storyline tied to Sara's return that the EPs wanted to save for S4A (leading up to LOT's mid-season debut).  Malcolm might still get his comeuppance in 4A... here's hoping.

Edited May 14, 2015 by tv echo

[ostentatious]

Laurel has benefited from having so little screen time, in that she has not been visually associated with as many problems as many of the others. 

 

The final swordfight scene..the worst choice of setting I can remember seeing for such a thing. They just appeared to be standing at a construction site. Only briefly did we even see the dam. There was little sense of danger until the absolute last second. Just green screen the entire thing guys. 

 

I did like Oliver straight up torturing and murdering Shrieve, though. I have been needing to get his downward spiral, and a child's death is definitely a strong trigger. 

Edited May 14, 2015 by ostentatious

[Clawdette]

I think Oliver was smiling because Felicity looked like an adorable mouse in the suit.

[nksarmi]

Yes, this. I fear this is going to be a problem in s4 actually because yet again, they're warping everything just so Malcolm has a reason to be on the show. I mean, it made sense that Malcolm was a bad guy all along but Nyssa should have been the new Ra's. Thea should have told her father to suck it. Laurel should have been given the right to first punch before they all beat him to death. (This was my dream, let me have it.)

 

I just hate that in all of it there was no justice for Sara's murder. HATE.

I honestly would have forgiven them for Malcolm getting to be the new Ras AND Nyssa knelling to him IF they had shown Sara walking out to stand by Nyssa's side and Malcolm revealed that while Sara's death served a purpose that he would rather Nyssa be happy than aiming to kill him in his sleep.  He could have had a corny line like "I didn't take her, I only borrowed her for awhile."  Since we are 99% sure Sara is coming back, I really wish they had resolved this between Malcolm and Nyssa.  As is I have to hope she gets her chance to kill him in a future episode.

[Password]

I'm still at the "smiling all day because Oliver is happy" stage that any and all arguments for inconsistencies and characters arcs go right over my head. I'm not ready to analyse nothing.

[NumberCruncher]

I felt like what changed Oliver's mind was Felicity and her willingness to not write him off. I honestly don't think Oliver would be in the position he is in now (happy with Felicity trying to figure out who he is) if Felicity didn't forgive him for 'killing' them and marrying Nyssa.

Okay, I'll grant you that. I was on record last week as saying I would be really pissed if Felicity forgives him so easily for seemingly killing the team and while I do think it was glossed over a little more than I would have preferred, I see and agree with your point. I guess I didn't factor in that Oliver would yet again be in ANOTHER "woe is me I can't defeat the big, bad villain" mindset and need Felicity to AGAIN give him the whole hero pep talk. I swear this show keeps going in circles with Oliver. I wish the writers would realize that this lesson needs to eventually sink in. 

 

With Felicity putting on the ATOM suit, and Thea's redone Arsenal outfit, Quentin is now the only current regular character who hasn't donned some type of super hero mask at some point.

I don't expect we'll ever see Felicity in a suit again but I'll admit to getting a kick out of all the whining I'm seeing on the message boards about her in the ATOM suit--especially since the theme of this whole damn show has been "Everyone gets a mask!!!" They practically hand them out like candy and people single her 10 seconds in one out as "the last straw"...LOL.

 

I can honestly say I've liked Laurel more in this episode than I have all season, if not in the entire series. I enjoyed her telling her father that the pity party was over, and he needed to get over it. It sort of mirrors how he was helping her in Season 2.

I really liked this scene as well and the acting chemistry between KC and PB is a big reason why I'm such a fan of Laurel/Quentin scenes. They just work really well together.

 

I think the only thing regarding Olicity that I didn't really like was Felicity quitting her job. to go away with Oliver. I need her to come back and run the company :p

This bugged me too. I was looking forward to her being kickass CEO but between her quitting and now the big explosion at QC/PT, we're apparently not getting that. Eventually they're going to need to give Felicity a real storyline beyond just being the tech support for Team Arrow because being Oliver's arm candy just isn't going to cut it for me.

As for the rest of the episode, I LOVED the introduction of Thea as Speedy and her scene at the end with Oliver in the loft was really sweet. Oliver/Thea sibling relationship scenes work so well on this show--always have, always will.

I feel bad for Nyssa because not only didn't she get justice for Sara, but now she has to live under Malcolm's rule as Ra's. That's complete bullshit. On a similar note, I love JB but can Malcolm just go die in a fire? That character is a mess and I'm not buying the whole anti-hero theme they've got going on. I did, however, love that Oliver told him he would never forgive him. Whether that truly sticks remains to be seen.

I need to see more Tatsu/Katana...enough said.

Oh Diggle, Diggle...I feel for you, bro. You got the shaft this season and I'm sorry for that. I don't blame you for being majorly pissed at Oliver because that's how I've felt through 75% of this season. You better get an unbelievably awesome storyline in S4.

Edited May 14, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[BumpSetSpike]

How would I describe the finale episode?  It was "fine."   That's it, just "fine."   Not exciting, not horrible.  No need to watch a second time.

 

Hate that Malcolm is the new Ra's because I'm so over Malcolm (even though I love Barrowman).  Absolute love Speedy/Red Arrow and would actually want to watch a show with her in it - Thea is badass now, and I love it!   Diggle - still love that man and my heart was breaking with his.  Felicity - too much whining, but in the end the whining won.  Flashbacks were still a huge waste of time - hoping for some reason to show up in the last episode to be an "ah-ha moment" but nothing, waste of time.  Oliver - SA nailed that line "my name is Oliver Queen" and I was all tingly inside for a moment there.

 

The problem with a 'happy ending' like this was that I realize I am not as invested anymore in Arrow because I felt that was a good enough ending to walk away from the series and be done with it.  No cliffhanger that I was interested in and Oliver at a happy place (which is why I watched anyway, for Oliver's journey).  

Edited May 14, 2015 by BumpSetSpike

[Morrigan2575]

This bugged me too. I was looking forward to her being kickass CEO but between her quitting and now the big explosion at QC/PT, we're apparently not getting that. Eventually they're going to need to give Felicity a real storyline beyond just being the tech support for Team Arrow because being Oliver's arm candy just isn't going to cut it for me.

 

Pretty sure that was setup for Felicity owning QC/PT in S4.  That's why they did it.  Ray signs over this branch/division to Felicity in 322, however everything happened quickly, all in a matter of days.  Paperwork probably gets found sometime after the explosion and Felicity gets drawn back because with Ray missing/presumed dead and the paperwork being found, she's now owner of QC/PT - Starling City Branch.

[apinknightmare]

This bugged me too. I was looking forward to her being kickass CEO but between her quitting and now the big explosion at QC/PT, we're apparently not getting that. Eventually they're going to need to give Felicity a real storyline beyond just being the tech support for Team Arrow because being Oliver's arm candy just isn't going to cut it for me.

 

Yeah, I didn't like that she quit either. I disagree about the CEO part (or at least, Felicity owning PT) - I'm pretty sure that's going to come into play next season. Ray probably already filed the transfer of ownership, Felicity just didn't know about it. So I'm guessing once she finds out about what happened to him, she'll return and either step up or find someone else to do it for her. 

[Delphi]

Ray really grew on me during this back half of the season. I really think it was a disservice to Brandon to have him all alone this season when he actually fits in very well with the team.

I especially liked him telling felicity that obviously the city had to come before Oliver. It pretty much tells you everything you need to know about Ray. I also like his exasperation before he blew up. Like,"really, you don't just wanna work?"

I'm really in love with Nyssa and would have loved for her to lead the league,

as happens in the comics whenever Ra's gets around to dying.

I would have been just as happy for her to just do an about face and walk defiantly out with the league not daring to touch her.

I really wish Tommy or Robert or Walter had gotten a mention as part of Malcolm's transgressions. I guess the writers have forgotten about Mr. Steel.

I wish Thea had been much angrier at Malcolm.

For all the good this was, it really didn't make up for so much crap we've had to deal with this season.

Eta: regarding diggle. Dig. I don't care about your man pain. I'm pretty sure Nyssa was in on the plan all along (has anyone asked MG) and if your team hadn't interfered then the whole Lyla thing wouldn't have happened. Your daughter is fine, Oliver didn't hurt your wife and you yourself have dealt with worse, as Lyla has as well. You've done suicide squad missions and learned to respect the man that killed your brother, but making your girl sit in an uncomfortable chair somehow crosses a line? I'm not buying that.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Delphi

[NumberCruncher]

For all the good this was, it really didn't make up for so much crap we've had to deal with this season.

This. I'm relieved this season is over. Give Oliver his 5 months of happiness and then pull him back in to the next big crisis but don't saddle him with the typical extreme levels of angst that go with it. You can allow the hero to have happy moments among all of the drama.

[Angel12d]

I'm pretty sure that Felicity will be CEO of PT next season otherwise what was the point of that whole scene of her signing the papers? It would be irrelevant otherwise. It's definitely set up for something. Question is, how long will Felicity be away with Oliver before she's called back to SC. Haha, I bet they're gone for like 2 days. 

Edited May 14, 2015 by Angel12d

[Password]

I mean is it mean to think "Ray! You couldn't blow up in 5 months?! No. Now Felicity has to come back."

[statsgirl]

I'm sure it's a co-incidence but in terms of "the man who survives Ra's sword will be the new Ra's", Malcolm actually survived Oliver's sword in s1.

[calliope1975]

Olivers grand plan to deal with Ra's and the AIRBORNE VIRUS was a plane crash.  No seriously....did he think through this plan at all?   I mean best case scenario where Ra's and Oliver go down with the plane and die...what does that mean for the virus?   How could he be certain that a plane crash would not break its container releasing it into the air?  Congrats on killing Ra's but still potentially dooming millions of people  *bangs head on desk*

 

Yeah, Oliver's not the brightest, is he? I wondered if Nyssa knew he planned on crashing the plane and killing everyone on board. Probably not.

 

But the ending wrap-up stuff left a bad taste in my mouth, and I ended up feeling a little dissatisfied. I'm really unhappy with the resolution of Ra's and Malcolm, because for all the gross treatment of the female characters this season, none of them got to enact any kind of justice. Sara is still dead,

even though we know she will appear on the spinoff.

Thea had to smile at the man who drugged and exploited her, and tell him that he kept his promise to her. Nyssa was not allowed to kill Ra's, is still married to Oliver, and had to effing KNEEL before Malcolm.

 

And yes, Ra's died. Boohoo, that's what he wanted. He wanted Oliver to become Ra's, so in a twisted way, he got all his wishes. And MALCOLM GD MERLYN definitely got his heart's desire. All the power, no consequences. 

 

I'm still angry about the Merlyn/Nyssa scene. They didn't have to fight right then, though I would have been fine ending that scene with swords at each other's throats, but to have her kneel before him was gross. She could have remained standing, and the same point would have been made without insulting Nyssa once again.

 

Yep, Ra's got almost everything he wanted. Don't get me started on Merlyn. Ugh.

 

I felt like what changed Oliver's mind was Felicity and her willingness to not write him off. I honestly don't think Oliver would be in the position he is in now (happy with Felicity trying to figure out who he is) if Felicity didn't forgive him for 'killing' them and marrying Nyssa.

 

I think it meant a lot when Felicity brought him the coffee since that's been a thing for them for awhile. He accepted and maybe expected Diggle to write him off, but I think he would have been devastated if Felicity had as well.

[arjumand]

Eta: regarding diggle. Dig. I don't care about your man pain. I'm pretty sure Nyssa was in on the plan all along (has anyone asked MG) and if your team hadn't interfered then the whole Lyla thing wouldn't have happened. Your daughter is fine, Oliver didn't hurt your wife and you yourself have dealt with worse, as Lyla has as well. You've done suicide squad missions and learned to respect the man that killed your brother, but making your girl sit in an uncomfortable chair somehow crosses a line? I'm not buying that.

 

This, a million times. Someone should have been there to tell Dig to stow his pity party, just like Laurel did for Quentin. Just, enough, dude. Even though I'm tired of the cry voice, I understood Felicity's anger (though in her place, I'd have been much more angry after the season 2 finale - I've rewatched the mansion scene more than once recently, and it. is. COLD. That little "do you understand" and half-smile - that's Oliver at his most heartless. Brr), but seriously Diggle - listen to Elsa, and Let. It. Go.

It's clear to me why Lyla isn't in these last few episodes - she would be the first one to say: "Um, honey? Remember that time I was stuck in Russia? Being abducted by the League was nothing, in comparison. It was actually the first time I got to sit down all day."

[bethy]

I think Digg will eventually let it go. But I think maybe bigger than the situation with Lyla was the baby being left by herself. I think that's what he mentioned specifically last night. And I get that, for sure. 

[kismet]

The finale was not perfect. It was good. It wasn't their best episode or even their best finale. But it ended a rather rough & inconsistent season, so Im glad it was good and not bad which it had the potential to be. There are major plot holes & character inconsistencies that rittle the entire season. As much as I would have liked them to tie up or connect some of these points, I knew they did not have time to do it in this finale. I hope for all of their claims for planning the seasons ahead of time, they do a better job with time management in s4.

 

It's my personal preference, but sometimes I do like when they some stuff up for interpretation like when Oliver realized he could be with Felicity. I think most of the character growth on this show is gradual, so I don't necessarily need to see when the exact change was made - because there is no exact moment. Motivation on the other hand needs to be worked on. This season the motivation has not been explained for a lot of plot lines which leaves too much open for interpretation. Ras died without me ever really knowing why he was so into OQ. Slade's motivations were weak, but at least I knew them. We still don't know why Sara had to die? (in story arc, I get why for the show) I want her to get justice, but more so I want to know why her? And LoA goon could have been killed by MM & Thea.

 

But in the end, it did everything I needed it to do. It got rid of Ras, who honestly was lame as a villain. He had moments of evil sociopathy, but mostly he just was there. I mean he was entertaining at points, but villain he was so-so. I enjoy MM as the new RAs because I think it is perfect for him and the show. It made Ray relevant has a hero. Him blowing up did not bother me, because I think something similar happens in the comics that causes the ability to shrink. Thea as Speedy is awesome! As much as I hated to see QL fall off the wagon, I think it was realistic & will give him something in s4. LL actually seems to be becoming better at being part of the team, even if she is still oblivious to the high price her lying is costing QL & the team. And most of all, it got together Oliver & Felicity in a way that I think was adorable & realistic in the time frame they set-up in the episode. Him finally choosing her over everything else was amazing. Her speech inspiring him again was spot on, her coffee intervention showing her willingness to try. It really took both of them reaching out to make that reunion possible.   

 

As for Nyssa, I do feel bad for her ~ but I think they have something big planned for s4 & there was not enough time to do it justice in the last min of this finale. Also, considering how tone deaf they seemed to be about the reaction to the wedding, it did not surprise me that they left that dangling. MG basically said they would, so I was expecting it would linger. It does not surprise me, but it does disappoint me that they had her kneel to MM. It is just par for the course for some of their behaviours regarding women over the years. Same with FS leaving her job. In my head, it felt like she was just taking an extended leave ~ although I really need to rewatch it to understand what was said at that point I think I was too giddy to really get what R&F talked about. Cliffhanging on gender sterotypes is perhaps not the strongest move they could make.

Edited May 14, 2015 by kismet

[inconstancy]

All I really have to say about this episode is that I don't care about anything other than the fact that Oliver is happy. It's pretty much all I want for all the characters, except for Malcolm, who can go die in a fire.

[bethy]

I don't think Nyssa's kneeling had anything to do with her being a woman. It had to do with her being part of a League of Assassins that requires the utter subjugation of its members. Everyone else was kneeling, too.

I felt for the character of Nyssa because of what she'd suffered at the hands of Ra's and how galling it must have been for her to have to kneel to the new Ra's. I think that humiliation for her as a warrior is going to stoke the flame of her coming plan to take her rightful place as Ra's. So to me that moment was about the character's story, not her gender.

[tv echo]

I really do think that the Nyssa vs. Malcolm conflict is a story being saved for S4 and might be tied into Sara's resurrection.

 

Incidentally, I only just realized the anvil symbolism of Felicity being the one to save Oliver from falling.

[Password]

Same with FS leaving her job. In my head, it felt like she was just taking an extended leave ~ although I really need to rewatch it to understand what was said at that point I think I was too giddy to really get what R&F talked about.

I'm in the same boat. For some reason it came across as Felicity taking an extended leave of absence or extended holiday, not quitting her job but I'll have to rewatch it. Ray did delete her from the company files right? Weird. I don't know why it didn't occur to me.

[Starfish35]

Not so much deleted her, but he marked her employment record as "resigned".

[apinknightmare]

I'm in the same boat. For some reason it came across as Felicity taking an extended leave of absence or extended holiday, not quitting her job but I'll have to rewatch it. Ray did delete her from the company files right? Weird. I don't know why it didn't occur to me.

 

She resigned (and that's what he marked on her file). He asked her if he was going to have to find a new vice president, and she said, "I think so." 

[Password]

Damn talk about blanking scenes.

Why did she resign? She and Oliver plan on a looooooooooong journey to finding himself.

[ostentatious]

Really, the worst thing isn't that Nyssa was usurped. It's that she had to kneel before the man who murdered the woman she loved, and vow allegiance to him. That's a vow she takes *seriously*.

 

Yes, we know that Sara is coming back somehow, but that's irrelevant. 

[apinknightmare]

Damn talk about blanking scenes.

Why did she resign? She and Oliver plan on a looooooooooong journey to finding himself.

 

I guess. I get why people are upset she left her job, and it's not my favorite thing either. But I don't blame her for wanting to take a nice, long break and not think about life for a while. I wouldn't blame any of them for doing that, really. 

[wonderwall]

I mean that's what sabbaticals are for. It's not unusual for people who want to take a break from life for a while. Idk I guess I get it?

[statsgirl]

The opening scene as they're passed out in the dungeon.... the floor is covered with black and white droppings.  Mice, rats, whatever else. Ewwwwww. Nice work, set design.

 

How did Barry not get infected by the virus? Or did he just burn through it so fast with his super speed like he does alcohol?

 

I can see why Felicity resigned from Palmer Tech, she wants to be free to figure out this thing with Oliver while he figures out himself.  I'm sure Ray would give her a job again in a heartbeat when she gets back.  But in terms of the show, I hope that doesn't mean that she doesn't own the company any more. The document said "Felicity Smoak", not Felicity Smoak Vice President".  I also noticed that her middle name is spelled M-E-G-A-N.  No 'H', contrary to many fic I've read.

 

Olivers grand plan to deal with Ra's and the AIRBORNE VIRUS was a plane crash.  No seriously....did he think through this plan at all?   I mean best case scenario where Ra's and Oliver go down with the plane and die...what does that mean for the virus?   How could he be certain that a plane crash would not break its container releasing it into the air?  Congrats on killing Ra's but still potentially dooming millions of people  *bangs head on desk*
.

While I'm still not totally resigned to Felicity forgiving Oliver so soon, I like that she did it because she realized that he did what he did because he was an idiot, not because he didn't care about them or out of malice.  He thought the only way to fix things was to sacrifice himself.  Again.  I hope Felicity can talk some sense into him during their road trip.

 

I'm looking forward to see what Diggle's "identity disguise" will be next season.  The red leathers do look better on Thea.

 

it seems like Dahrk certainly operates in the modern world and has very good connections/massive wealth accumulated. His minions wore suits! He rented out the entire top floor/penthouse suite! And he's on the pulse of things enough that he knew to get outta dodge before Ra's even set foot in SC.

 

I wonder if the Chief of Police or other government authorities are on his payroll, which is why Captain Lance couldn't get the snipers to stand down? 'Cause how would the Chief know that the two men fighting on the dam were, for sure, responsible for the virus outbreak? And the chief's orders were shoot to kill Ra's and Oliver, instead of incapacitate and arrest.

 

I really, really hope that they cast a great actor in the role, though. And that he won't be such a fail like this Ra's turned out to be.

Darhk having the Chief of Police in his pocket explains why the Chief gave order to kill both men because they caused attack on the city. How would the Chief have known since Quentin is the one who told the police about it in the first place and mobilized forces.  It makes sense that Darhk would want to get rid of both Ra's and Oliver, future Ra's and foe.

 

Felicity delivered one of the best lines of the series: Don't fight to die. Fight to live.

I liked that it was a reprise of Diggle's "something to live for is better".  Original Team Arrow for the win!

Edited May 14, 2015 by statsgirl

[tessaray]

Nyssa kneeling to the new Ra's, even MM, seems in character for someone raised in the LoA.  She didn't like marrying Al Sahim either but she did it. The only time she really defied her father as Ra's (I think) was in releasing Sara, right?   While that grates, I think it actually makes her more of a real character, not some one dimensional kick-ass assassin. 

 

This season was such a mess but they did do Maseo/Tatsu right.  (Most of that was probably just the actors, though.) Before I thought the FB scenes were tedious.  Since they always mirrored the current plot, they were too predictable.  But right up until the end, they had me hoping Akio somehow survived.  And Maseo putting the general out of his misery... as long as he was alive, Oliver was going to keep torturing him. Not sure how I feel about that.

[blixie]

 

Olivers grand plan to deal with Ra's and the AIRBORNE VIRUS

 

 

OMG this was one of many insanely stupid things I couldn't abide, if it's airborne it's airborne, but it's not going to be airborne via anyone's blood, and killing the "carriers" who were *breathing* and *expelling* that *airborne virus* was the EXACT right thing to do. Yes they would also not want to touch any fluids and quarantine the bodies, but JESUS, just snap their necks. I know there are Alias super fans on this board, but this was the kind of Alias level (and subsequently Fringe-level) stupid that made it impossible for me to every watch those shows or take them remotely seriously. If what you mean by airborne virus is actually poison gas just make it poison gas dumbfucks.

 

This is why I will always embrace things like a fucking imaginary LP, and a Canary Cry, rather than see them attempt to be "realistic" at all. Ever.