S03.E23: My Name Is Oliver Queen

[kismet]

I think they're going to have to keep the effects contained to specific events that don't change a whole lot in current time. Time travel on one show that effects the storylines of two others is not only a hot mess to keep track of, but it's a really quick way to start losing your audience, who might not want to have to watch all three to figure out what's going on in the one they DO watch.

That's why I wouldn't worry about Barry doing something over on The Flash that's going to affect Arrow, especially since Arrow's already over for the season. I'm sure whatever happened in this ep will stick.

They can barely keep the present day timelines intact when they do crossovers, I shudder to think how they would be able to keep time travel arcs & changes intact.

[arjumand]

They can barely keep the present day timelines intact when they do crossovers, I shudder to think how they would be able to keep time travel arcs & changes intact.

 

Ain't that the truth - I still have no idea how Oliver got to Central City to help Barry and have a chat, in between marrying Nyssa and getting on the plane to Starling.

Maybe R'as al Ghul has a teleportation device stashed in his basement.

[tv echo]

Could you expand on what you mean about the anvil symbolism? 

In this episode, Felicity dons the Atom suit, sweeps in, and physically saves Oliver from falling to his death in the waterfall.  But she has figuratively saved him from "falling" time and again throughout the series, with her pep/truth talks and her belief in him and her love for him.  She has saved him from figuratively falling into despair, falling into hopelessness, falling into 'soul death' -- changing his death-wish and resigned-to-death attitude into a will to live.  Since S1, Oliver has struggled to retain his humanity and Felicity was the light or the harnesser of his light, if you will, that kept him from falling into darkness.  Lots of light symbolism throughout the series.  When Oliver tortured Shreve for hours in the flashback, you could also view that as the real start of Oliver's 'fall from grace' or descent into darkness, which subsequently spiraled into the ruthless Oliver who returned to SC with a killer instinct and a death wish.  His journey over S1-S3 could be viewed as one of climbing back up to the light and regaining his humanity.

With Oliver going off into the sunset with Felicity, and this show's penchant for killing off female characters to propel the plot of male ones, I can't help being worried that she's toast. Felicity dies, he becomes the Arrow again and the romance spot is opened up for Laurel. I'm just saying: with the way they killed off Sarah and Shado, I can see them doing this.

Despite the damage this season has done to Felicity's character, I think she is still too popular to kill off.  I could be wrong, but I think it would cause a significant ratings drop.  Even if Arrow were to be canceled at some point, I think they would just try to move her to The Flash or LOT or some new spinoff (assuming EBR is amenable).  They killed off Sara and ended up bringing her back, presumably due to her popularity.  I think Felicity is even more popular than Sara.

You know what? I change my mind about Felicity quitting her job. I'm just reading all these posts made by fake feminists talking about how Felicity quitting her job shows that she has no agency and how it shows that she isn't a feminist/feminist icon or whatnot and it just boils my blood. 

 

Felicity chose Oliver over a job. She chose happiness over a job. She can get a job anywhere she wants because being VP or CEO at PT isn't her passion, computers are her passion and she can get a job regarding computers anytime anywhere. Never in the history of Arrow has it shown that Felicity values her job more than anything else. In fact, I feel as though for Felicity, she doesn't value her job as much as she values the people she loves, her happiness, and crime fighting... And that's not such a bad thing?

 

I say kudos to Felicity for going all in and finding her happiness in Oliver.

I've seen plenty of movies and read plenty of books which are all about a man who neglects his family for his career and has to learn that people are more important than a job.

Edited May 15, 2015 by tv echo

[catahoulamama]

That's basically what happened in the Flashpoint Paradox animated movie. (I haven't read that Flash story line in the comics.) Barry saves his mom and it fucks shit up with all the DC characters. It's so dark, though, I can't see them trying that on The Flash. 

 

Sadly, your scenario is not as crazy as I would like it to be. Though, in all honesty, I don't really think the CW would let them kill Felicity off. She's too much of a draw critically and commercially.

I don't think they'd kill her off either. Although I could totally see them changing things drastically with a flashpoint thing....it would certainly explain the uncharacteristic happy ending on Arrow.  I mean, Barry's supposed to do this in the finale and whatever happens there is after the whole ride-off-into-the-sunset-ain't-life-grand stuff on Arrow and we won't know until next fall. 

Sorry! My mind goes to the dark places! Maybe it's the opposite, like you said - something bad happens and Barry's reset reverses it.

 

To be fair though, this show has conditioned us to go to dark places and NEVER expect good things to just be that...good things. So, I blame MG. LOL

I thought the producers said this flash thing doesn't effect season 3 of arrow.

Yes, but since Season 3 of Arrow is done and this hasn't happened on the Flash yet, technically, it would affect Season 4 of Arrow, if anything.

[BunsenBurner]

I've been thinking about this episode and the overall season it was a huge mess that was compounded by horrible writing and didn't answer the important question of why Sara was killed. Of course we know that they, the writers, figured out that they messed up and she is now on LOT. We will have to wait until either they tell us next season or wait until 2016 for an answer.

 

Recapping Season 1

If not for Felicity way more than 503 people would have died. She was the quiet hero of 123. Yes Lance was the one who stopped the earthquake machine but she figured out how to do it and guided him through the process. She was new to the game of being a hero and the devious nature of villains (MM) so did not think of redundancy. She stayed, she fought her way, with a computer and her brains, and she was a hero.

 

Recapping Season 2

Felicity again was the quiet hero of 223. This time she was the willing damsel in distress and waited for the right time to administer the miracuru cure to Slade so that it was possible for Arrow to be able to fight with equal footing to take Slade down. Again even though she was still untrained in the physical aspects of being a hero she used her brain and waited for the right time to strike and did again a hero.

 

Recapping Season 3 

Blah, blah, blah. Ra's dies, Diggle is great, Nyssa goes back to the LOA, the city is saved, Oliver falls to his death?, Malcolm wins.

 

Yet again Felicity was the quiet hero of 323. This time she figured out where the Alpha Omega virus was going to be spread and let all who needed to know where to go to stop it including the police.  She told Oliver not to fight to die but to fight to live and maybe just maybe it slapped him between the eyes and he figured out that was how he needed to start thinking to overcome his bullheadedness of always wanting to die. And finally she used her laser focus, in times of extreme danger and seemingly not enough time to come up with a solution to save the city while keeping the body count low, to figure out how to disperse the nanites to save Starling City. Ray helped by configuring said nanites. Her job was complete and there was nothing else left for her to do but wait to see if they were successful.

 

When Felicity heard that Oliver was going to be gunned down by the police she asked for Ray's help. He refused since he was still working on completing the job of making the nanites to spread out over the city. He told her that she could not save one over the many but then he asked her the most important question of the night. What would Oliver do? She knew then that there was only one choice to make she had to save him. She had been working on the ATOM suit all season long she had seen it in action and whose to say she hadn't tried it out. Ray flew it competently on the first outing and why couldn't she? She flew in and saved Oliver because she loved him and she wanted their happy story. However, this time she was the superhero! 

 

Think about it if she didn't save Oliver there would be no Arrow season four. I seriously doubt he would have survived that fall. Really writers he had to fall to his death a second time in the same season? Enough said ;-)

Edited May 15, 2015 by BunsenBurner

[ostentatious]

I don't think they can handle the complexity of these crossovers, either, and you add in shifting timelines and information gleaned by characters on one show they'll carry to another...they couldn't even have Oliver attribute his change of heart to the fact he'd just learnd he lives to see old age, and that had happened just the prior ep. And the CW has proven that they don't care about measing up the timelines and airing shows out of order, and that's with only two shows and the most basic and uncomplicated crossovers.

This team cannot handle this work. They cannot.

[Chaser]

I don't think they can handle the complexity of these crossovers, either, and you add in shifting timelines and information gleaned by characters on one show they'll carry to another...they couldn't even have Oliver attribute his change of heart to the fact he'd just learnd he lives to see old age, and that had happened just the prior ep. And the CW has proven that they don't care about measing up the timelines and airing shows out of order, and that's with only two shows and the most basic and uncomplicated crossovers.

This team cannot handle this work. They cannot.

 

The first crossover worked perfectly in my opinion. It was planned and excuted well. It's these mini crossovers that don't work. Esp. in the later part of the season when everything is coming to head. For characters to randomly leave, it doesn't work.

 

I would also say that they run the problem of writing these characters for the show instead of writing the characters into the show. We saw that with Laurel on the Flash. Completely different character for the Flash. Slightly an issue with Felicity on the Flash for the second time, but that one was because the timing was way off.

 

They have to very careful map out the crossovers with no surprises for it to work. And they need to get the tone to even out between the three shows. Arrow can still be darker, but it can't be S3 again.

[KirkB]

Wasn't the larger issue of the timing more the network? No matter how well choreographed the two shows might be they are still at the whim of the CW, which might decide to preempt one show or the other at any random time for whatever reason. I mean, I like the fact Oliver or Barry CAN show up to help one another, it maintains the feel of a connected universe, but doing it too much causes potential problems, not even taking into account continuity. Barry coming to Nanda Parbat (which he didn't even know was a thing the last time on his own show) was great, but considering how unbelievably useful he would have been searching the city for the virus carriers and perhaps even dealing with it he couldn't stay.

Edited May 15, 2015 by KirkB

[ostentatious]

Yes, absolutely, another huge problem is that they write them inconsistently between shows.

I mean, they had Felicity running off with Ray to CC in a very perky mood...at a time when TA was in crisis. You can even look at their inability to handle Felicity being the person "crossing over" from TA storylines to scenes with Ray *in a single show* and see the problems. Mood and where the characters are emotionally...that is more distracting for the audience than some slight factual inconsistencies.

I loved the first Flash crossover and how Olicity was written there, but even that...they were not written correctly for where they were emotionally at the time. Oliver had just gone to find her and tell her err...something...found her kissing Ray, but you didn't see that on Flash. And sorry, but "everybody's in a good mood in CC" is funny, but nope. Not gonna work.

I consider THAT an issue of timing. Characters not emotionally mapping between shows. That isn't network, that's writing coordination.

However, I do start to wonder if they really are going to use time travel to age Connor up to his late teens or early twenties.

Edited May 15, 2015 by ostentatious

[Chaser]

Wasn't the larger issue of the timing more the network? No matter how well choreographed the two shows might be they are still at the whim of the CW, which might decide to preempt one show or the other at any random time for whatever reason. I mean, I like the fact Oliver or Barry CAN show up to help one another, it maintains the feel of a connected universe, but doing it too much causes potential problems, not even taking into account continuity. Barry coming to Nanda Parbat (which he didn't even know was a thing the last time on his own show) was great, but considering how unbelievably useful he would have been searching the city for the virus carriers and perhaps even dealing with it he couldn't stay.

True. They are are the network's whim, but I do think the larger problems come from the writing. You already used the Barry example but there is also the issue of Oliver going CC. How did that work?

 

I can watch an episode and know that it takes place in a certain timeframe and be okay with it as long as the writing makes sense in that timeframe. Otherwise its just annoying.

[ostentatious]

AND AND AND.

They are terrible at mapping emotional arcs for their characters WITHIN SHOW. Look at Oliver in this ep and the great "where the hell was his arc?" question. Can you imagine them trying to work emotional arcs spread over three shows?

[Chaser]

Since this is the episode thread, I should probably go on topic.

 

I watched the show a bit late so I was spoiled before. I enjoyed it for the most part.

 

Pretty much agreed with everything said here on the episode. I really didn't want Oliver to hang up the Hood, but after everything that happened this season I'm glad for it. It does feel like they turned a corner to a more upbeat show and I could not be more happy. Next chapter please.

 

Stray thoughts: Felicity in the suit was both awesome and ridiculous given the actual size of the suit. She looked so adorable, I need bloopers. Also love that she stuck the landing a lot better than Ray the first time and she was carrying something. 

 

I actually didn't mind Laurel. Yes, it was not the right time and please stop getting on Lance's case for lying, you don't have a buckle to stand on. But I thought the scene was well acted. I'm really not looking forward to more Lance Family Drama in S4 tho.

 

I wanted a good bye scene between Felicity and Diggle. With a hug. I appreciated all the Olicity scenes but a kiss would have been wonderful or at least a shot of them holding hands in the car.

 

I really don't have much to say on the whole Ra's thing because I really don't care. Just glad its over. I already like DD better. I bet he showers.

 

Malcolm makes no sense at all. I don't understand Oliver there. I needed the last shot of Nyssa to her kneeling with a hand on her blade and a fade to black.

 

Diggle/Oliver hurts my heart. :-(

[WaitandHope]

So I can't really disagree with the criticisms of this episode, but I still really enjoyed it.  It was not the high for me that the Season 2 finale was, but that's one of my favorite season finales of any show - EVER.  So that's a high bar.

 

I have found myself hand-waving away most of the problems that I had with the episode: like pacing, logic, science, the fact that Felicity gave up a VP job she is by all accounts great at to follow Oliver around in a car, etc.

 

If I start to nitpick, my brain hurts from trying to make Malcolm's "plan" work, Oliver's "plan" work, why exactly Barry couldn't help to have a conversation, Laurel's amazingly quick progress into BC and on and on. But these are mostly criticisms of the season - not this episode.   

 

The good far outweighed the bad.  I honestly think I root for Olicity more than any other fictional couple I've ever watched, and I need to give the writers credit for that.  It can't just be about acting chemistry (which is there in spades), it is also about the writing on the page. 

 

I used to want Arrow to be smart TV, but I have realized that it will always be frustrating if I hold it to that standard,.  While I will continue to hope for things that make sense, I'm not going to worry too much when it doesn't.  It's a superhero show after all.  if they give us more episodes like this one -- that make you cry, smile and Felicity fist-pump, all in a single hour, it will be good enough for me to keep watching for a while and keep it one of my favorite shows on TV.

 

First and foremost, Arrow needs to be enjoyable and make me feel, and this episode did that in spades.   Arrow tripped up this season when it got way too dark - same as the weakness from early Season 1.   Too much TV today is smart, but an absolute misery to watch.  "My Name is Oliver Queen" was kind of dumb, but I simply loved it anyway.  

[millennium]

Yeah, about that. I just had a similar horrible thought last night (European time zone here) and I kind of need to be talked off a ledge this morning.

 

In the season ender of The Flash, Barry's going back in time to save his mom. He's going to change the past. I am terrified that next season, Barry will be all skipping through the meadows, happy he saved his mom, decides to visit his buds in Starling.

 

Sample dialogue:

 

Barry:  "Where's Felicity?"

Oliver: "Who?"

 

AND SCENE.

 

Barry, you asshole, don't fucking do it.

 

 

Go, Barry!   Save your mother! 

[foreverevolving]

Remember in one of the threads when I said after 320 that OQ didn't want to have the same song & dance with FS about going v. not going and he most likely had it without Felicity. Turns out I was correct in a way. OQ had a nightly song & dance w/ FS about him staying. Those dreams might have been amazing & reassuring on one hand, but also completely torturous at the same time. No wonder he always seemed so exhausted & stressed. Poor guy needs a very long vacation with FS by his side.

 

 

My favorite thing about it is that every time in the dream, he said yes and tried to escape with her. No dangling maybes in dreams. :-)

 

I wish we would have gotten various versions of that dream through 3B, it would have been nice to see it.

[kismet]

^^^ YES it would've been very nice. But I do like that the writers put it in that he had the dream on the plane & that he considered it rebirth. And then continued it by having him confess it to her to complete the circle.

I feel like a lot of this is berlanti's influence, where he tells the audience something important and then threads it through the episode so that we can get the full impact of something without having to wham us over the head. It seamlessly is interwoven into plot & characters. Something that was missed in a lot of s3.

[Scribbles]

I am gonna defend the unpopular, the flashbacks.  In the finale the contrast between Oliver three years into his forced captivity free to go home but choosing to be alone versus Oliver three years at home choosing to embrace another and life is wonderful. 

 

The contrast between where tragedy takes Maseo and where it takes Oliver is yet another, and explains why Oliver despite all may be able to become a hero. 

 

Katana's chosen seclusion (which she breaks only for Oliver) is rich with comparisons and contrasts.  I suspect we will see more of just how Katana reaches Oliver and helps him from becoming someone devoid of humanity over time.  Her recognition of his monsterous acts when she was in the depths of grief and loss go far to explain present Oliver.  She is shrouded in darkness imposed on her, but not lost to it.  She came the furtherest to accept Oliver over the same year he grew more infused with darkness.

 

The Yamashiro's story overall shows how joy can exist and be taken, but how one can choose which path to follow in their response to the loss.

 

I suspect we will learn just how impactful she has been on assuring Oliver checks his own darkness when we learn why he has the tatoo.

 

I will confess I have been far more accepting of the flashbacks this season than the consensus from others has been.  I think it may be that I did not look for them to parallel the present action or explain it (although the virus does play a part).  Instead, I was watching for how Oliver was changing in terms of his identity.  He entered Hong Kong constantly trying to escape Waller and go home, by the time the year ended he was free to go but chose not to because of who he had become.

[Morrigan2575]

In one of the scenes at Palmer Technologies with Ray and Felicity, you can hear Diggle over the comm saying "We got the 4th guy." So, Dig and Thea.

EDIT: I believe his actual phrasing was "Fourth man down," but I'm not 100%.

Thank You

[AustenChick]

So, I've been reading a lot about what people have been saying on this ep. Yes, this season did have problems and the character arcs were at times a bit fuzzy, but I will say what Arrow tries to do is what I admire about it best - it always tries to go big or go home. it's one of the most ambitious plotted shows out there (IMHO) and that's why I give it a pass for any stumbles on this ep or this season. I wonder in general if people are kind of not into love stories on action shows in general -- is that why this ep is getting a bad rep? Because it's Olicity heavy? I mean, I'm a romance gal so I loved it, but I do wonder.

[Scribbles]

I wonder in general if people are kind of not into love stories on action shows in general -- is that why this ep is getting a bad rep? Because it's Olicity heavy? I mean, I'm a romance gal so I loved it, but I do wonder.

For what it is worth, I am not crazy about lots of sap in my action entertainment, but it is not the romance itself.  I can't imagine how anyone thinks putting the sympathetic hero at opposition to a guy they are trying to win over with fans for a new show is gonna work.  Everyone involved in a love triangle is gonna come out muddied, and they did.  It weakens Felicity to suggest she needed the contrast/comparison to make her choice.  It puts Ray in the unenviable position of competing with the lead.  It makes Oliver look to weak for too long.  A love triangle was a bad, terrible, no good idea!

 

They could have ended in the same place with hints of a threat that they did with full scale living out every trope of the triangle.  Oliver is not so dumb and didn't need to see Felicity in another man's arms to know how he felt.  Felicity didn't need to go all the way there.  They really could have gotten from Ep. 1 to Ep. 23 with the same result without taking it all as far as they did.  It wound up giving too much direct screen time to it.

[tarotx]

To me the big failure of this Season was Ra's casting. If Ra's was deceptively menacing and we the audience felt the fear that Oliver, Melcolm and Nyssa felt when dealing with Ra's? As well as the comforting presence of why some would give all to be accepted into the LOA? We would get these people actions better.

Edited May 15, 2015 by tarotx

[quarks]

So after rewatching this episode, some additional thoughts:

 

1. I love Barry's appearance, but his little "Stand Back" when he's going to vibrate through the door cracks me up because, you know, really, Barry, everyone there is in chains. Where exactly were they going to stand back to?

 

2. Why, exactly, is Malcolm so certain that the plane they took to Nanda Parbat is still going to be there? They were all, including Malcolm, knocked out. This message brought to you from earlier today when I was sure that my keys were exactly where I left them but they weren't.  I know a plane is a bit harder to lose than keys, but on the other hand, it's also a lot more likely to get blown up.

 

3. This episode neatly encapsulates for me the problems with Ra's as a villain.

 

In the flashbacks, Oliver tortured Shrieve and Maseo killed him. In the current day, Malcolm made Nyssa kneel in front of him, Nyssa killed various assassins by tossing them out a plane, Oliver killed Ra's, Thea nearly killed the LoA guy who then killed himself, Ray casually announced that he has nanothings that can release viruses and antiviruses over the city on a whim, like, uh, Ray, and then Ray blew up two floors of a building.

 

Ra's...killed a stooge.  And we saw a couple of people flop over, before the Starling City news people assured us that everything was great thanks to Palmer Technologies.  

 

Which means that pretty much everyone in the episode except Tatsu, including Laurel and the Starling City police department (who at least managed to shoot Oliver and send him reeling over a waterfall) ended up being more dangerous/lethal/evil than Ra's was in this episode. Contrast, for a moment, the last two season finales: Malcolm did kill 500 plus people and almost killed Diggle and Oliver; Slade and his goons killed several cops and a couple of LoA people and destroyed QC's windows again (ok, that's not hard), right after an episode where we saw him and his goons setting fire to Starling and smashing things and terrorizing people, to the point where Amanda Waller considered Slade a credible threat and Oliver decided that things were so bad, he had to risk Felicity.  We didn't see that this episode.  And that continued a trend that we kept seeing in episode after episode this season.

 

Sure, we've heard that Ra's is terrible, horrible, dangerous and so on. But what did we actually see? We saw Nyssa and Malcolm show up in "The Magician" and credibly threaten the city and Thea. We saw Malcolm brainwash his daughter and force her to kill Sara. We saw Ra's kill a few criminals, arrange for Oliver and Felicity to have sex, force Oliver to kill some unknown guy, and force his daughter to marry Oliver. These are all bad things, don't get me wrong, and yes, the killing of the criminals led to Oliver losing his Arrow identity - but that loss was just as much on Quentin as on Ra's (and since Quentin was mostly reacting to Sara's death and getting lied to about it, it's also on Malcolm and Laurel and Oliver.)  

 

In television series, the Big Bad really needs to get worse/more of a threat each season. We didn't see that here.

 

4. And while I'm complaining about Ra's, I think a bored, world weary villain can work, but it's the sort of thing that I think works better in books than on screen.

 

5. Which is why I'm left with really mixed feelings about Malcolm taking over the League of Assassins. On the one hand, and I think I wrote this someplace on this forum, I really wanted to see Malcolm suffering at the end of this season, and ordering Team Arrow around and then getting to take over the League of Assassins and enjoy their hot tub and sex rooms is not really what I would call suffering. On the other hand, Malcolm should at least be more interesting to watch than Ra's was, so there's that.

 

6. For all of Guggenheim's "We didn't have an organic place to put a kiss" in this episode, I saw two, MG, two - once at the end of Felicity's fight to live speech, where Oliver easily could have given her a forehead kiss - upping the emotional stakes there, too, since forehead kisses often imply "goodbye," and mirroring their scene right before the last time he battled Ra's on the edge of a cliff - and right after Felicity said "I think I had a little something to do with that," where Oliver easily could have responded with a brief lip touch. Oh well.

 

7. Speaking of the fight to live speech, yes, yes, very emotional and all that, but my favorite Oliver and Felicity scene is going to remain the reveal of her in the suit and Oliver breaking down in relief and laughter. With quite possibly a small bit of relief there being that he hadn't been rescued by Ray.

 

8. Regarding Laurel: since we're already getting a lot of the "Oh, they are going to kill off Felicity next season so they can go back to Oliver and Laurel" stuff here, some thoughts about her actual role in the episode:

 

Laurel actually had some nice moments and a role in the first part of the episode - she's the one that asks Tatsu what's going on and shows some concern for her, she helps fill Barry in on the thoughts of the Team, and arguably one of her best moments all season was the look she gave to Malcolm when he started trying to order Team Arrow around. For once, Laurel, I was completely with you. Great look, great attitude.  She also, for the first time in the history of Arrow season finales, got to do something useful, took out a goon without any assistance, helped save the city, and didn't have to be rescued.  (That was the best part.) You go, Laurel, you go.

 

But otherwise, this episode is another classic example of how this show marginalizes Laurel.  When Oliver and Nyssa show up, for instance, Ray escorts everyone except for Diggle and Felicity out of the room - including Laurel. This makes absolute sense for Malcolm, who isn't owed an apology, and Nyssa; some sense for Ray (although it would have been nice for Oliver to say something to Ray about "sorry for making you think you were going to die there," but Ray and Oliver really aren't friends). Laurel, though, is supposedly Oliver's friend, and just headed to Nanda Parbat to help him. And she didn't get an onscreen apology.  She is later paired up with Nyssa, while the other ex-couple, Ray and Felicity, work together.  Ray and Felicity get a nice little moment after Oliver announces in front of everyone that he wants to go away with Felicity.  Oliver and Laurel don't get a single scene, and Laurel doesn't even get a single line after that - Thea, Diggle, Ray, Malcolm and Nyssa do, but not Laurel.

 

And the big thing is her confrontation with Quentin over his drinking. It's not necessarily a bad thing to confront him on and I agreed with everything she said.  The issue is when it happened. That scene would have worked quite well at the end of the episode, with Laurel coming in and saying that she was grateful that he was at least speaking to Team Arrow again, and then revealing the alcohol issue. But the show instead chose to focus the end of the episode on Oliver and Diggle, Malcolm and the LoA, Thea, and Oliver, Oliver and Felicity, another Green Lantern reference, and this show's mindboggling decision to turn its interrogation room set into an evidence room set instead of just dragging a camera into a nearby storage room, but not Laurel.  The Quentin/Laurel scene was moved earlier, right as the city was under attack/threat, emphasizing the general idea we've now had for three seasons that Laurel actually impedes things, rather than helping them. It also meant that Laurel, alone of the fighting members of Team Arrow, didn't participate in the attack on Damien Darhk - Felicity and Malcolm played a larger role - and that Laurel failed in her major task for the episode - alerting the police. Felicity had to do that.

 

And speaking of heroic things: Nyssa tossed assassins out the window, helped in the attack on Darhk, helped keep the plane crash from getting much worse, and didn't hesitate to expose herself to the virus; Ray saved the entire city with nanothings; Oliver saved the entire city by finding out the plan and killing Ra's; Felicity found the four locations of Doom and saved Oliver; Thea saved Diggle. Laurel knocked down one LoA person.  

 

It was, as I noted, the hands down most useful thing she's done in three season finales, but combined with the way that the camera didn't even look at her when Oliver asked Felicity to come along on a nice car ride, the way that Thea was the one to ask where Oliver was going, and the way that Thea, Diggle and even Malcolm got goodbyes from Oliver, but Laurel didn't, and everything else that happened in this episode, I'm just not seeing anything on the show indicating that Laurel and Oliver will be getting back together no matter what happens to Felicity.

[Chaser]

There is nothing happening in show that says Oliver and Laurel will ever be a thing again. Nothing in this episode, nothing in this season. My concern is just how the showrunners will respond to all the negative feedback.  If they use it as a reason to go back to their original plan (Laurel seems to have gained a few fans, granted I'm seeing mostly apathy but still) or if they take a good look at the last three seasons as a whole and say this works and this doesn't. Olicity together works, Olicity with contrived angst does not.

[kismet]

I am gonna defend the unpopular, the flashbacks.  In the finale the contrast between Oliver three years into his forced captivity free to go home but choosing to be alone versus Oliver three years at home choosing to embrace another and life is wonderful. 

 

The contrast between where tragedy takes Maseo and where it takes Oliver is yet another, and explains why Oliver despite all may be able to become a hero. 

 

Katana's chosen seclusion (which she breaks only for Oliver) is rich with comparisons and contrasts.  I suspect we will see more of just how Katana reaches Oliver and helps him from becoming someone devoid of humanity over time.  Her recognition of his monsterous acts when she was in the depths of grief and loss go far to explain present Oliver.  She is shrouded in darkness imposed on her, but not lost to it.  She came the furtherest to accept Oliver over the same year he grew more infused with darkness.

 

The Yamashiro's story overall shows how joy can exist and be taken, but how one can choose which path to follow in their response to the loss.

 

I suspect we will learn just how impactful she has been on assuring Oliver checks his own darkness when we learn why he has the tatoo.

 

I will confess I have been far more accepting of the flashbacks this season than the consensus from others has been.  I think it may be that I did not look for them to parallel the present action or explain it (although the virus does play a part).  Instead, I was watching for how Oliver was changing in terms of his identity.  He entered Hong Kong constantly trying to escape Waller and go home, by the time the year ended he was free to go but chose not to because of who he had become.

Responding in the hopes & fears section.

[kismet]

6. For all of Guggenheim's "We didn't have an organic place to put a kiss" in this episode, I saw two, MG, two - once at the end of Felicity's fight to live speech, where Oliver easily could have given her a forehead kiss - upping the emotional stakes there, too, since forehead kisses often imply "goodbye," and mirroring their scene right before the last time he battled Ra's on the edge of a cliff - and right after Felicity said "I think I had a little something to do with that," where Oliver easily could have responded with a brief lip touch. Oh well.

Totally agree, mentioned this exact place few pages ago. When I yell from my couch, just kiss her... that my friends is an organic moment. It might not seem like it on paper, but when brought to the screen it just begs for a little peck, it didn't have to be some big 320 kiss. But a brief moment.

 

Glad they didn't duplicate the forehead kiss, because although I agree it would have been nice symmetry - their relationship has evolved and it might have felt too small. I think that it was good that he didn't kiss her until after the battle was over. I have no problem with her forgiving him in the end. But he did hurt her. And he may have possibly betrayed a lil her with the whole dungeon & death by plane crash plan. So even though her speech was overflowing with emotion, it might have seemed a little too close or over the line for him to assume that he could just kiss her without her indicating that she was ready to forgive him or resume where they had left off. By her rescuing him and saying she wanted to to kiss him, it opened the door for him to resume where they left off. Which brings us back to the above moment.

 

Oh well. The moments they had were emotionally charged & felt intimate so let's be happy for that  :)

[AyChihuahua]

I think part of my problem with Oliver (beyond the fact that he is SO DUMB now...why would he think the airplane crash wouldn't, you know, break the GLASS vials and release the virus?), is that sacrificing himself is his Plan A, pretty much every time.  I mean, he's a hero, he should be WILLING to die, but his dumb brain pretty much sees a spider and immediately plans to shoot himself and fall on the spider, squashing it with his corpse, instead of just using a tissue to pick the spider up and flush it, like a normal human being.

 

Btw, did everyone catch that the big duel included a pretty huge error, in that Oliver's sword was clearly visible outside Ra's coat when he supposedly stuck him in the side in a copy of Ra's moves on him?  It was so glaring I caught it on my live watch.  This show's stunts used to be so great.

[TobinAlbers]

Calling it now- since Thea survived the Lazarus Pit with her sanity intact, Malcolm is going to think it's worth the risk to try to correct his one other regret- resurrecting Tommy and/or Rebecca. Usually the body has to be fresh, but I can see him willing to try except Rebecca will go batshit and have to die. Tommy will act like he's okay but will be REALLY batshit and be the one to kill Malcolm and be the big bad Oliver and Thea will have to put down. Sad.

As for the rest of it, if the villain had been anyone but Ra's I would've bought Oliver defeating him, but Even Batman can't beat Ra's. This show basically is saying that Oliver Queen is THE best non meta human superhero and I just ain't buying that. Or else Ra's was no longer in his prime. In any case, Malcolm being the head is such a bonehead move on Oliver's part. Can't wait for that to come back and bite him in the ass.

Tatsu needs to be in the Legends spinoff. Her backstory is already done. All you would need is to fill in her time after parting with Oliver and she's badass. I mean she took down her own husband! That's some fierce fortitude.

[Chaser]

I didn't think of Katana on LOT, but that would be amazing!

[KirkB]

Btw, did everyone catch that the big duel included a pretty huge error, in that Oliver's sword was clearly visible outside Ra's coat when he supposedly stuck him in the side in a copy of Ra's moves on him?  It was so glaring I caught it on my live watch.  This show's stunts used to be so great.

 

 

Oh good, it wasn't just me. I was sure he'd missed, but it makes more sense it was a bad camera angle.

[Chaser]

Oliver's big more at the end seemed to happen in slow motion too. I thought it was going to enter Captain Kirk territory for a moment.

 

Oliver and Malcolm's partnership confuses me. Oliver said that he had been working a con with Malcolm since he knew Thea was a target. Did he mean 3x12 or 3x19? 

[Scribbles]

Oliver and Malcolm's partnership confuses me. Oliver said that he had been working a con with Malcolm since he knew Thea was a target. Did he mean 3x12 or 3x19? 

My understanding of it all was that he and Malcolm worked out their "plan" once Thea was stabbed by Ras and psuedo-dead.

[AyChihuahua]

Three comments:

 

(1) Am I the only one who thinks SA was not that great in this episode?  His face was oddly blank at moments that seemed pretty meaningful, like his big "My name is..."  declaration.  No expression.  A couple other times, too.  His smiles were great, but he didn't have a lot of facial expressions between blankness and smiling.  He's probably tired, and maybe just done with this terrible season, but I thought, other than the nice smiles, it was one of his worst episodes.  (Admittedly I haven't watched any other S3 episodes since The Climb, but he was quite expressive before S3.)

 

(2) Willa Holland's arm was totally shaking when she was holding the drawn bow string in her scene with Diggle.  Still love her, really looking forward to Speedy next season, but she might need to muscle up a little.

 

(3) IMO, this episode was, overall, rather bad.  It had its good moments, but its pacing was off, the stunts were not impressive, SA was not great, a few other issues largely arising out of the terribadness of this season, BUT at least I can watch it.  I'll never watch any other episodes of this season, ever, because even the episodes that were not themselves miserable are in a quagmire of misery and leading to a story of misery and JFC I hate the angst and misery.  This one, comparatively speaking, was frigging cheery like Christmas morning in a Disney movie and seemingly provided an end to the misery.  So hey, small favors!

Edited May 17, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Genki]

Three comments:

 

(1) Am I the only one who thinks SA was not that great in this episode?  His face was oddly blank at moments that seemed pretty meaningful, like his big "My name is..."  declaration.  No expression.  A couple other times, too.  His smiles were great, but he didn't have a lot of facial expressions between blankness and smiling.  He's probably tired, and maybe just done with this terrible season, but I thought, other than the nice smiles, it was one of his worst episodes.  (Admittedly I haven't watched any other S3 episodes since The Climb, but he was quite expressive before S3.)

 

(2) Willa Holland's arm was totally shaking when she was holding the drawn bow string in her scene with Diggle.  Still love her, really looking forward to Speedy next season, but she might need to muscle up a little.

 

(3) IMO, this episode was, overall, rather bad.  It had its good moments, but its pacing was off, the stunts were not impressive, SA was not great, a few other issues largely arising out of the terribadness of this season, BUT at least I can watch it.  I'll never watch any other episodes of this season, ever, because even the episodes that were not themselves miserable are in a quagmire of misery and leading to a story of misery and JFC I hate the angst and misery.  This one, comparatively speaking, was frigging cheery like Christmas morning in a Disney movie and seemingly provided an end to the misery.  So hey, small favors!

 

 

I think as a stand-alone especially compared with the best of S2, it's can be perceived as not as strong , but for and ending to this uneven Season is was pretty damn good.

 

SA Plays Al-sahim pretty much shut down, so you were probably seeing some vestige of that. SA has been doing a great job of shifting between and manning the various persona's of Oliver IMO, even from a still image you can tell which Oliver he is playing. 

[Velocity23]

I just realized that the ending of 3x23 of Arrow reminded me so much of 3x23 of Dawsons Creek with Joey & Pacey skipping town to be together. I see you Greg Berlanti.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2015 by Velocity23

[Hook75]

I did not like it at all.

 

So it is OK for Diggle and Felicity to hide their plan with Roy from Oliver, but when Oliver does it, he is evil and can not be trusted? hypocrites.

 

Oliver wasn't OK with LL becoming the BC but he is OK with Thea becoming Speedy after he almost lost her?

 

MM gets away with killing Sarah and even gets rewarded for it? WTF?

 

Oliver giving up his city so easily? 

 

It was all rushed and did not make a lot of sense.

 

The only moment I liked was Nyssa guarding Oliver with her bow and arrow as he was attacked by team arrow.

[Chaser]

I did not like it at all.

 

So it is OK for Diggle and Felicity to hide their plan with Roy from Oliver, but when Oliver does it, he is evil and can not be trusted? hypocrites.

 

Oliver wasn't OK with LL becoming the BC but he is OK with Thea becoming Speedy after he almost lost her?

 

MM gets away with killing Sarah and even gets rewarded for it? WTF?

 

Oliver giving up his city so easily? 

 

It was all rushed and did not make a lot of sense.

 

The only moment I liked was Nyssa guarding Oliver with her bow and arrow as he was attacked by team arrow.

To me there are two key differences here: 1) Oliver was trusting Malcolm in a long con over his Team. 2) Oliver was planning a suicide mission.

[blackwing]

Did I miss Tatsu's goodbye scene?  One moment they are rescued by Flash, the next she's gone.  Did I blink and miss it?  I want her back next season.

 

I also want Nyssa back on a regular basis.  I want her to escape the League and move to Starling City, where she and Laurel can be roommates.  I could listen to Katrina Law talk all day long.  I don't remember her voice sounding this purringly mysterious on "Spartacus".  I'm going to have to go back and watch my DVDs.

Edited May 19, 2015 by blackwing

[Carrie Ann]

Did I miss Tatsu's goodbye scene?  One moment they are rescued by Flash, the next she's gone.  Did I blink and miss it?

 

Yeah, it was super-quick. She's in a passageway with Laurel and indicates it's time for everyone to leave and Laurel says something like, "Aren't you coming too?" And Tatsu says that she left her life of solitude because Oliver asked her to, but now it's time for her to return to it. I also hope we see her again. I really liked Rila in this role and would like to see more of her character. Plus, it's just too depressing to think of her having lost her son, killed her husband, and then living alone forever.

[Chaser]

I keep seeing a reference to Coast City on tumblr. I think I missed something, was it mentioned in the episode?

[Starfish35]

It was on the ship that Oliver boarded after saying goodbye to Tatsu (in the flashbacks) at the end of the episode.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Starfish35

[AyChihuahua]

For the record, I don't think Oliver came up with his suicide-by-plane plan until after he brought back Nyssa and found out about the A/O virus, AND the plan to have the team take it out failed.  I don't think he was specifically planning to kill himself the entire time.  He couldn't come up with that plan, really, until he learned about the A/O virus.  I think the timeline was that he was working with Malcolm in The Return, etc., to beef up his sword-fighting skills, then AFTER the offer and his refusal of the offer, Malcolm told him he'd have to take it one way or the other, and that taking it would require the destruction of SC.  That's pretty much when he came up with his infiltration/intel-gathering plan in general (which is the general plan he really should have told Diggle about, both bc Diggle "keeps secrets for a living" and bc having someone trustworthy in the general know in SC would have actually been helpful).  He knew, from Malcolm, that Ra's would try to brainwash and drug him, but I'm guessing he was fairly sure he'd be able to resist that, then he planned to hang around Ra's and generally act evil until he learned specifically how Ra's would destroy SC.  After he learned about the A/O virus, he implemented Plan A, using the team to take out the virus, which failed, THEN he started with Plan B to sabotage the cargo plane.  

 

I also doubt very much that Ra's knew the whole time that DD would be/was in SC...I think he learned sometime around episode 21/22, and that is why he moved up the SC-destruction so much, which was a surprise to both Oliver and Malcolm.  So, IMO, Oliver wasn't necessarily PLANNING to die when he finally slept with Felicity, although he was certainly willing to die.

[Chaser]

It was on the ship that Oliver boarded after saying goodbye to Tatsu (in the flashbacks) at the end of the episode.

Thanks!

[kismet]

For the record, I don't think Oliver came up with his suicide-by-plane plan until after he brought back Nyssa and found out about the A/O virus, AND the plan to have the team take it out failed. I don't think he was specifically planning to kill himself the entire time. He couldn't come up with that plan, really, until he learned about the A/O virus. I think the timeline was that he was working with Malcolm in The Return, etc., to beef up his sword-fighting skills, then AFTER the offer and his refusal of the offer, Malcolm told him he'd have to take it one way or the other, and that taking it would require the destruction of SC. That's pretty much when he came up with his infiltration/intel-gathering plan in general (which is the general plan he really should have told Diggle about, both bc Diggle "keeps secrets for a living" and bc having someone trustworthy in the general know in SC would have actually been helpful). He knew, from Malcolm, that Ra's would try to brainwash and drug him, but I'm guessing he was fairly sure he'd be able to resist that, then he planned to hang around Ra's and generally act evil until he learned specifically how Ra's would destroy SC. After he learned about the A/O virus, he implemented Plan A, using the team to take out the virus, which failed, THEN he started with Plan B to sabotage the cargo plane.

I also doubt very much that Ra's knew the whole time that DD would be/was in SC...I think he learned sometime around episode 21/22, and that is why he moved up the SC-destruction so much, which was a surprise to both Oliver and Malcolm. So, IMO, Oliver wasn't necessarily PLANNING to die when he finally slept with Felicity, although he was certainly willing to die.

Was gonna post something similar. Really feel like the a/o virus release was not part of his initial infiltrate/destroy LoA plans. Think that was revealed later. I fully believe that he thought his mission to destroy LoA would succeed & he would be able to return to felicity. He did not sleep with her knowing he was intentionally planning a suicide air mission.

The suicide plan was his contingency plan should his team fail to destroy the virus. It's really not the best plan. But OQs MO tends to be self sacrifice when other options fail, so it did not surpriss me. I also wonder if he planned to use the parachute that ras stole. It did seem planned to me that there was only 1 parachute on the plane.

Those that follow the comics- an article I read (can't recall it now) said that the writers pulled the airplane plot line from the comics. Thst ga did save city by crashing a plane. Does anyone know if there was an airborne virus in that plot too? Cuz I have to agree with other posters that the plan does not make much sense with an airborne virus, but I've decided that I need to handwave most science & medicine on this show or it'll drive me crazy.

[lemotomato]

Those that follow the comics- an article I read (can't recall it now) said that the writers pulled the airplane plot line from the comics. Thst ga did save city by crashing a plane. Does anyone know if there was an airborne virus in that plot too? Cuz I have to agree with other posters that the plan does not make much sense with an airborne virus, but I've decided that I need to handwave most science & medicine on this show or it'll drive me crazy.

Theoretically, a plane crash could have successfully destroyed the virus assuming it goes up in a ball of flames upon impact. I can't defend the stupidity of an airborne virus spread through blood exposure to air, though. 

[AyChihuahua]

The writers should have just made it nerve gas or something.  Not that many plane crashes really go up in fireballs, especially when they're low on fuel, which this plane would have been since they were almost to SC when the sabotage finally took effect.  Anything less than a serious fireball leaves too much chance of the virus getting out, especially since people would rush to the scene of a plane crash to help.  

 

Oh well, bygones.  Season of stupid is over, and hopefully next season will be less stupid and less miserable.

[arjumand]

I can't say I hated this episode, but I definitely felt it wasn't as good as other season enders.

 

There was too much talking, for one. I mean, why did Felicity have to repeat so much of the speech from Nanda Parbat - I kept waiting for Oliver to say: "Umm, honey? I was there." I get that it's for the audience, but how stupid do they think we are? Also, there was no place to organically put a kiss? Really? Really? After that whole speech about how he dreams about running away with her all the time? I would have been on him like a shot.

 

Another thing that bugged me was R'as's final "I knew I made the right choice," and I was so pissed off - I wanted to Oliver to lean over and whisper in his ear,* and later we'd find out that he'd told R'as that he was giving the ring to Malcolm Merlyn. I wanted him to die with a look of horror on his face. Maybe Oliver could have kicked him off the dam, too. He was a murderer and rapist, so screw him.

 

The third thing was the fight - I mean, their first fight was so good, except Oliver lost. The last one, I could barely tell them apart at some point, what with the wide angles, night setting, and that they're essentially wearing the same outfit. All the other season ending fights were done at night too, so I'm trying to find reasons why this one didn't measure up.

 

*thus giving birth to another 'Hail Hydra' meme, which would be a bonus.

[AyChihuahua]

 

Another thing that bugged me was R'as's final "I knew I made the right choice," and I was so pissed off - I wanted to Oliver to lean over and whisper in his ear,* and later we'd find out that he'd told R'as that he was giving the ring to Malcolm Merlyn. I wanted him to die with a look of horror on his face. Maybe Oliver could have kicked him off the dam, too. He was a murderer and rapist, so screw him.

I was thinking this last night.  Oliver was kind of weirdly nice and respectful to him in his final scenes, which made no sense to me, considering Ra's was a piece of shit.  He wasn't an honorable opponent, to be respected in defeat, he was a piece of shit rapist, wannabe-rapist-by-proxy, Thea-more-or-less-murderer (even the mob usually doesn't go after little sisters), innocent-killer (I still feel bad for the mayor, and some people did die from the virus) and mass murder-planner (a whole city by the virus, plus the 50 people/day if Oliver didn't hand over Sara's killer).  Instead of making him think Oliver was going to become Ra's as planned, and saying the prayer, I'd have preferred something like your scenario.  After which they cut up his body and feed it to pigs.

 

Also, every time I rewatch it bugs the crap out of me that you can totally see Oliver's sword outside Ra's body when he was supposed to have just stabbed him in the side.

[Kordi]

Also, every time I rewatch it bugs the crap out of me that you can totally see Oliver's sword outside Ra's body when he was supposed to have just stabbed him in the side.

I´m glad that you mention this, because I saw it, too:

 

 

Was this an error during the editing process? Or was it intended like this? My first thought was that they had f****d up, because the sword clearly doesn´t pierce the body. Then I had the idea that maybe Oliver wasn´t stabbing Ra´s, but just cutting his side along the ribs in order to cause a wound and weaken his opponent. But in the end, I´m just not sure... What´s your opinion?

 

BTW: I also read this comment regarding this scene on tv.com:

 

"This is the swipe Ollie makes right after catching the sword in his hand, just before he stabs Ra's through the heart. The sound effects make all the slicey-slicey gooey-gooey sounds as if he ran Ra's through the stomach, yet you can CLEARLY SEE IN ALL ITS GLORY THAT THE BLADE HAS ENTIRELY MISSED.

I couldn't believe it, the whole moment is shot as if this is meant to be a revelation, the entire time you can see it didn't cut the guy, it was if it wasn't meant to cut the guy, just rub up against him while he freezes in time, as if the producers were intentionally revealing a trick of the trade or something.

There is no cut mark here nor in the shots after. It's as if there was no intent to show this to the audience, that this was meant to look like it was run through his gut, but when they choreographed it they got it backwards and the cameras ended up on the wrong side of the fight, and they DIDN'T BOTHER REMOVING IT DURING THE EDIT, leaving the poor sound guy to try to justify this fuckup".

see: http://www.tv.com/shows/arrow/community/post/arrow-season-3-finale-episode-23-my-name-is-oliver-queen-review-143111999257/#comments

Edited May 21, 2015 by Kordi

[apinknightmare]

I think it was intended that way-Ra's jacket was closed, Oliver couldn't have gotten his sword inside it. They wanted Oliver to use the same moves Ra's had used on him, but since Oliver was shirtless during that duel and Ra's wasn't during this one, it didn't quite work the same way.

Edited May 21, 2015 by apinknightmare

[arjumand]

 

I´m glad that you mention this, because I saw it, too:

 

 

Was this an error during the editing process? Or was it intended like this? My first thought was that they had f****d up, because the sword clearly doesn´t pierce the body. Then I had the idea that maybe Oliver wasn´t stabbing Ra´s, but just cutting his side along the ribs in order to cause a wound and weaken his opponent. But in the end, I´m just not sure... What´s your opinion?

 

BTW: I also read this comment regarding this scene on tv.com:

 

see: http://www.tv.com/shows/arrow/community/post/arrow-season-3-finale-episode-23-my-name-is-oliver-queen-review-143111999257/#comments

 

 

It was supposed to recreate the scene during the duel in The Climb, where that's exactly how R'as defeats Oliver - after the strike to the neck, R'as cuts him in the side, and stabs him through the chest.

 

The reason this was more visible is they were both shirtless (It is custom: sure, Maseo, suuuuure). And, as I said in my comment, on the dam they were both wearing 20 layers of clothing each. This is why I despair of the writers sometimes. They go for the 'rule of cool' and then they find they can't pull it off story-wise (why is it against the code to destroy a city with an earthquake machine but not with a bio-engineered virus?) or visuals wise (no, a duel on a dam in the dark with people dressed the same is not going to have the same effect as a duel in the fucking snow, during the daytime, when you can fucking tell the fighters apart. For fuck's sake.).

Edited May 21, 2015 by arjumand