S07.E06: Double Down On Delusion

[shoegal]

Because anyone is going to believe that "LuAnn, Countess de Lesseps" is a native-born Frenchwoman? I guess Carole must have been trying to deceive viewers, as well, when she referred to herself as a princess in the opening titles of her debut season . . . all that elucidation of her Italian blue-collar origins (like Lu's consistent allusions to her childhood) to the contrary.

As I've stated before and I think others have stated, it seems the tag lines are written by production. Until Carole writes a book called "Preening with The Princess" or informs her friends that the proper way to introduce her to the help is "Princess Radziwill" or sniffs that "The Princess doesn't drink beer from a bottle", I will continue to not see the comparison.

Edited May 18, 2015 by shoegal

[shoegal]

Carole dishes it out but can't take any sort of ribbing from everyone else. When she does it, it's a joke, it's all in good fun, everyone's taking her too seriously etc etc. In the preview for this week, Luann says something to the effect of "That's Sonja young," about Adam, and Adam and Carole's relationship. Carole bristles. Hard. She gets very offended. But when she makes similar comments, they're jokes and if people take offense they don't have a sense of humor. That's the crux of the Carole problem for me. Double standards.

I think the double standard in that case falls on LuAnn. When LuAnn was 28, (Adam's age) she married a man that was almost Carole's age, 16 years older than she was....instead of saying "Sonja young", she should have said "Alex de Lesseps young." Edited May 18, 2015 by shoegal

[WireWrap]

As others have noted in this thread and hers, LuAnn is selective in the application of her social codes to the point of hypocrisy. And she herself has gone out of her way to demean others on occasion. For me, that is a discrete question from whether or not Carole herself had deliberately belittled LuAnn or third parties; the premises aren't mutually exclusive. Vis-a-vis LuAnn's presentation of herself, I would think the first thing she would do were she earnestly attempting to present herself as a Euro would be to, I don't know, style herself something other than "LuAnn." She may display a flair for double standards when it comes to social mores but, from my perspective, she's never equivocated about hailing from a working-class American background . . . Speaking of selectivity and double standards, I find Heather to be as indulgent as LuAnn with both, only in a more moral capacity. Watching her talking heads this episode was disturbing because her exposition on Sonja's drinking problem was so clearly motivated by malice rather than concern. If Heather is so genuinely invested in Sonja's welfare, why is she venomously detailing the particulars of having to carry Lady Morgan home in her talking heads? Sonja has been unappreciative and thoughtless of Heather's friendship since they first met; the toaster oven debacle transpired four years ago, and Heather vocalized a desire to distance herself from Sonja for around the past two. So it's weird and unnerving to observe Heather consistently protest that she just wants the "best" for Sonja and was befuddled that Sonja didn't stampede to involve her in the dress line pyramid scheme . . . And then subsequently see her self-righteously divulge all of the specifics of Sonja's emotional instability and substance abuse issues. And, of course, it's not as if Sonja hasn't embarrassed herself already with intoxicated antics on multiple instances, but Heather is now incorporating events that didn't occur during filming, which sort of undermines the narrative that all she wants is what's most conducive to Lady Morgan's prosperity . . .

I think Heather "helped" Sonja up the stairs during filming at her Berkshires home last season after Ramona left but it was not shown for what ever reason. I also want to know what the producer asked Heather to have that tidbit revealed in her TH and that IS the problem with all the THs , we never know what was asked before we hear the answer.

 

I do think Heather, as well as all the other HWs want to see Sonja in a better place. I think they now realize that this is not just an act she is putting on but that something is really wrong, even Ramona is saying that. It was Bethenny that involved Heather in Sonja's new pipe dream/clothing line, she was the one that called Heather and filled her in on that. Who knows exactly what Bethenny told Heather but it was enough that Heather said something to Sonja. JMO of course LOL

[motorcitymom65]

I like Heather, but she really irked me with the Sonja thing. I understand being annoyed at being made to wait (exacerbated by Sonja's refusal to acknowledge it), but I think that Heather was projecting a lot of her frustrations with the situation overall (including Bethenny's lateness) onto Sonja. Would it have been nice for Sonja to invite them into the house proper while they waited? Sure. That's what a friend should have done. But you know what else a friend does? Demonstrate some understanding and patience when a friend is dealing with something and isn't comfortable having people upstairs in her home. Whatever Sonja was dealing with, be it a childcare emergency, a messy house, etc., Heather could have afforded to be generous rather than following Sonja around calling her a bitch. Yes, I think that Sonja's excuse was bullshit, but I also understand that people sometimes need to cover for the real shit that they're dealing with and don't want publicized all over the place.

The problem with demonstrating understanding and patience with Sonja is that she doesn't do the same. She has no idea what the others might have gone through to make it to her house on time. They have children as well. They have other obligations that need to be made. Certainly Heather is running a big company. It is possible than in order for her to get a way for a few days she has to work like a crazy person and make all kinds of arrangements to allow her to be away for a few days. I didn't hear Sonja offering any empathy to her when she was asking her to wait in the cold and in the rain. Also, Sonja said in her blog that she told Heather that they couldn't wait inside because she had no one to watch them, since the interns have to be carefully monitored when "entertaining". She said that she told Heather this. There aren't words to describe how angry this would have made me. 

[lunastartron]

Additionally, Carole is ready enough to correct and/or sneer at others that she bristles when remarks aren't even about her. I happen to think there's not a lot to suggest that she's insecure about her body, but if she can take umbrage about a comment that someone makes in the first-person to refer to their own experience and no one else's ("It was kind of like writing an -email") or sneer "everyone over the third grade knows not to use that word" (when, in fact, it is she who could benefit from some education), then I don't think it's at all "bizarre" for viewers to interpret what the statements Carole makes about herself suggest about her. It's no different from audiences concluding that Bethenny seems to enjoy being unhappy after watching her cry at length about the challenges of being "homeless" in a Central Park South presidential suite. Observation, interpretation . . .

[ZaldamoWilder]

I don't think Carole is singled out more than housewives in other franchises. I watch the other shows and am avid in their forums. Also I don't think she is the most accomplished HW of all the RH franchise, that would probably be Eileen Davidson, IMHO. She has distinguished herself more career wise acting and writing, has a fantastic family, and is very popular and well known. Those are all nothing to sneeze at. Maybe even Beth is more accomplished than Carole. Carole used to be a journalist years ago and wrote one well reviewed book, thats cool but she's not Donna Tartt or Christiane Amanpour and hasn't set the world on fire in her 52 years.

 

 

Thanks you for illustrating exactly what I was talking about!   (P.S.  I always love it when people who've written zero books sneer at someone else for having only written one, and that a huge bestseller.  P.P.S., Carole's actually written only two books so far, one of which is being made into a TV series -- the slacker!)

 

Not to try interpret the OP's comment but I think accomplishment may be relative so it may be as simple as a difference of opinion as to to whom it most applies.   Difficult to say.  However, whatever their level of success it's hard to argue with anyone being accomplished enough to look down at other people when the opportunity presents, and still walk away likeable.  Tough one, that.

 

As I've stated before and I think others have stated, it seems the tag lines are written by production. Until Carole writes a book called "Preening with The Princess" or informs her friends that the proper way to introduce her to the help is "Princess Radziwill" or sniffs that "The Princess doesn't drink beer from a bottle", I will continue to not see the comparison.

 

Andy got into this briefly on an episode of WWHL and IIRC, it's not so much that production picks the tag lines.  They have the women all say something about themselves, several descriptive blurbs (it might be noticeable but they're always in this sing songy announcey kinda of voice) and then production picks the one they like best.   So the women know that *one of these* is going to end up being their tag line, they just don't choose the one. 

[shoegal]

Andy got into this briefly on an episode of WWHL and IIRC, it's not so much that production picks the tag lines. They have the women all say something about themselves, several descriptive blurbs (it might be noticeable but they're always in this sing songy announcey kinda of voice) and then production picks the one they like best. So the women know that *one of these* is going to end up being their tag line, they just don't choose the one.

Surely production picks the tag line to use, and there are multiple ones for each housewife, but IIRC when the issue was brought up by Joyce on the RHOBH, her issue was the content of her tag line and she didn't agree with it. It did not seem to be something she had written for herself. Kind of like her outfit at the reunion, it was not her choice.

ETA: From Joyce "“They give you all these taglines, and you take them, and then they pick,” Joyce says. “Here I am as a newbie, playing ball and taping what you’re telling me to tape. But I’m asking you to not pick this, and you pick it,” she reveals. “I was bullied as a young girl for these things you’re putting in my tagline: I grew up feeling ugly, feeling bad about myself for being too skinny.”

Read more at: http://allthingsrh.com/joyce-giraud-pissed-bravos-producers-opening-tagline/

Edited May 18, 2015 by shoegal

[Beden]

 

About the "girls" I noticed it a lot on this show and Vicki from RH of OC is the biggest user of calling everyone girl and every man (even at 65 years old) a boy. I admit I don't use those terms for adults for myriad reasons. I think it sounds a bit silly. It however is not outlandish for middle aged women to say. Most of my colleagues call me girl or my/friend coworker boy. Like "your appointment is with that girl." Or "that boy you'll see does a good job!" He and I enjoyed that talking later privately. He laughed a lot "I'm the 50 year old boy!" Also the show calls these ladies cougars a lot; can a cougar still be a girl? I guess that shows the word is used in fun.

I get it and yes, it generally in used in fun or to be inclusive ('C'mon now, girls...' 'What will you girls have?') but it grates. I'm in my 60's, had a long career, raised a now adult child on my own--and he turned out just fine, thanks, was sole caregiver for my elderly and ailing father for 8 years, have traveled extensively...blahblahblah. I'm a woman, thank you. I left girl behind decades ago and little pisses me off more than some probably well meaning, condescending jerk referring to me as 'young lady'. Bite me.

 

Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but the various HW's endlessly referring to themselves as girls makes me think of retro 50's TV shows when wives were actually called the little woman. Found it patronizing back then and still do. Okay, rant over but, seriously--these women are almost all in their 40's, 50's or closing in on them. You're now adults and if you're not, get some help. I know this is crappy TV but you're not 20; accept it--it's not a bad thing. Frankly, older (post college and first job) women are a hell of a lot more interesting than real life girls.

 

edited for my crummy typing

Edited May 18, 2015 by Beden

[lunastartron]

Other cast members have pushed back on the contention that they have no agency in their opening credit lines. In any case, Carole elects to use her obsolete title when producers exhort her to do so. LuAnn chooses to employ her obsolete title socially and/or with staff. I don't have a problem with either choice and don't think either woman's situationally convenient invocation of them somehow suggests they are attempting to obscure their unaristocratic births when said women have shared at length on a national television program that they grew up without the trappings of wealth. From my perspective, the premise that Lu is making a concerted effort to convince everyone that she is, in fact, of European lineage is undermined by her consistent references to her childhood over the course of eight years on what was once one of Bravo's marquee shows - and, that, I believe, her book touches upon those Connecticut origins. But MMV and all of that, I guess.

[ScoobieDoobs]

I think in Sonja speak, that means you had a deep meaningful relationship with him, lucky you :)

 

Hmmm, maybe there should be a thread devoted solely to translating Sonja's delusions?

 

I suspect she barely ever leaves that townhouse.  We know she has no dough to travel, unless Bravo or someone else pays absolutely ALL of her expenses.  But at least she seems to be able to pay her electric bill cuz there are always lights on in every window whenever I've passed by.  Anyhoo, when I passed by this morning, on my way to work, I noticed she had all of her windows wide open.  Seemed to me like such an odd thing to do -- certainly for safety reasons & also cuz it's so uncomfortably humid out.  Maybe the interns are cleaning?  Or she can't afford air conditioning?

Edited May 18, 2015 by ScoobieDoobs

[ZaldamoWilder]

Surely production picks the tag line to use, and there are multiple ones for each housewife, but IIRC when the issue was brought up by Joyce on the RHOBH, her issue was the content of her tag line and she didn't agree with it. It did not seem to be something she had written for herself. Kind of like her outfit at the reunion, it was not her choice.

ETA: From Joyce "“They give you all these taglines, and you take them, and then they pick,” Joyce says. “Here I am as a newbie, playing ball and taping what you’re telling me to tape. But I’m asking you to not pick this, and you pick it,” she reveals. “I was bullied as a young girl for these things you’re putting in my tagline: I grew up feeling ugly, feeling bad about myself for being too skinny.”

Read more at: http://allthingsrh.com/joyce-giraud-pissed-bravos-producers-opening-tagline/

 

Thanks for the link.   I gotcha.  Eeesh, unfortunate.   Now I'm a little bit sad, I actually wanted Kristen to have been fine with saying she wasn't the brightest bulb in the box, but she's pretty. 

[shoegal]

From my perspective, the premise that Lu is making a concerted effort to convince everyone that she is, in fact, of European lineage is undermined by her consistent references to her childhood over the course of eight years on what was once one of Bravo's marquee shows - and, that, I believe, her book touches upon those Connecticut origins. But MMV and all of that, I guess.

Well, then LuAnn should have thanked Carole for reminding everyone that LuAnn is in fact, PROUDLY from Connecticut, it could have given her a great opportunity to give thanks for her humble Connecticut origins. Instead, when asked about it on WWHL, LuAnn chose to highlight the fact that she married a European and spent many years living in Europe. Playing up the European aspect, not the humble Connecticut born one.

Edited May 18, 2015 by shoegal

[Petunia13]

Thanks you for illustrating exactly what I was talking about! (P.S. I always love it when people who've written zero books sneer at someone else for having only written one, and that a huge bestseller. P.P.S., Carole's actually written only two books so far, one of which is being made into a TV series -- the slacker!)

How do you know I've written zero books? And no offense but it seems like you are discrediting me and expecting me to defend myself. You made your assertion she is the most accomplished. I said in my opinion she isn't. Honestly I'm not comfortable about your above statement and the one you made about "why would anyone be proud of going to a state school."

Edited May 18, 2015 by Petunia13

[lunastartron]

And, as others have noted, those are abject facts about LuAnn's life, as well. Is Carole obligated to limit her discussions about her life to her DiFalco childhood? Oh, wait, she, too, wrote a memoir . . . about marrying the son of a Polish prince and one of the most celebrated of socialites in international high society, as well as her friendship with the two most prominent Kennedys of the fin de siecle. Which are facts about her life.

[shoegal]

And the fact is, LuAnn is from Connecticut, so it shouldn't be a dig to point this out.

[lunastartron]

Um, so "that's Sonja young" isn't a clearly disdainful remark since it's documented that Sonja would and has hooked up with a thirty-year-old? Just because a statement is true doesn't automatically preclude the delivery and/or intent from being rude. Someone could say to Carole, "you've written two books" or "your family showed up to your wedding in a car with a broken door." Those are verifiable assertions. Doesn't mean they can't be communicated in a less-than-palatable fashion.

[pbutler111]

How do you know I've written zero books? And no offense but it seems like you are discrediting me and expecting me to defend myself. You made your assertion she is the most accomplished. I said in my opinion she isn't. Honestly I'm not comfortable about your above statement and the one you made about "why would anyone be proud of going to a state school."

 

I don't mind you disagreeing with things I've said, but you're disagreeing with things I actually didn't say.  I didn't say that Carole is the most accomplished.  What I said was, "it's hard for even her most ardent detractors to pretend that her accomplishments aren't of a much more substantial nature than most of the other women in the RH franchise (not that they won't try)."  You think that someone starring on a soap opera and having a husband and children is a more substantial accomplishment than a woman winning Emmys for documentary reporting and writing bestselling books; I disagree.  You're not going to change my mind on that, and I'm not going to change your mind, so why try?  I also didn't say, "why would anyone be proud of going to a state school".  Again, I don't mind you disagreeing with my actual comments, but please don't put words in my mouth and then take exception to your own invention.

 

P.S.  I'm sorry to have assumed you've not written any books.  Forgive me if I was wrong.

[Sincerely Yours]

And the fact is, LuAnn is from Connecticut, so it shouldn't be a dig to point this out.

Ok how about Carole was just straight up annoying by pointing something out that had nothing to do with the point that was trying to be made? She also sounded rather simple minded because if it wasn't a dig and just some random observation ummmm how stupid does she sound?  If she was just honestly contributing to the conversation with that ridiculous point that didn't really fit then homegirl should find some brain games to incorporate into her schedule.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Sincerely Yours

[shoegal]

It can be interpreted as dig if you are sensitive about the subject. If LuAnn wasn't trying to put forth an aristocratic European air, it wouldn't be interpreted as a dig. The response would have been more along the lines of "damn right, I'm from Connecticut!".

[Trooper York]

The problem most people have with Carole is that she is the quintessential faux hipster douche bag.

You see them all the time. Sixty year olds wearing fedoras and vests with pocket watches over ripped jeans. It is just as ridiculous as some dude wearing an open silk shirt over a zodiac medallion like a disco warrior time traveling from the 1970's.

Carole is just the female version.

I don't know. Maybe it will turn around when she lugs her dead husband around in a taxi. That should be really fun television right there!

[lunastartron]

So Carole should be saying, "Damn right, I like my men 'Sonja young'!" And that she's not but, rather, grimacing suggests she's sensitive, embarrassed, and or advancing pretensions?

[Persnickety1]

If anybody stood in *my* home screaming at me that I was a fucking bitch, I can guarantee that heifer would have her umbrella implanted up her ass and hop her way pogo-style back to her own home.

 

I can think of no acceptable reason on any level that can justify Heather screaming at Sonja in Sonja's home in such a foul manner.

 

Yeah yeah, I know Heather apologists will have a field day defending her actions but I'm not bothering to respond.

 

That's my opinion and that's how I'd have handled Heather's outburst.

 

Between this and last season's "motherfucker" incident, any respect for I had for this woman has disappeared faster than Sonja's panties.

 

Holla!!!

Edited May 18, 2015 by Persnickety1

[Sincerely Yours]

It can be interpreted as dig if you are sensitive about the subject. If LuAnn wasn't trying to put forth an aristocratic European air, it wouldn't be interpreted as a dig. The response would have been more along the lines of "damn right, I'm from Connecticut!".

But wasn't it Bethenny who made the European reference with regards to her hair style?  It's not like LuAnn was all "Dahhhhlling, the extensions that Carole suggested would be soooooo unflattering and take away from my very European look, you know the look that came with being a Countess and all Dahhhhlingg." I like LuAnn I don't take offense at the way she holds herself and over the seasons it's coming across less like trying to assert herself as a Countess and more like she's just plain old fabulous which I completely dig! Absolutely! Flawed and all she just keeps it moving and it's so golden to me. LOL.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Sincerely Yours

[shoegal]

So Carole should be saying, "Damn right, I like my men 'Sonja young'!" And that she's not but, rather, grimacing suggests she's sensitive, embarrassed, and or advancing pretensions?

I don't know, I will wait until the episode airs to make the judgement. Maybe she is sensitive about the age difference. LuAnn is the one trying to shame Carole, without bringing up the fact that she married a much older man herself.

Edited May 18, 2015 by shoegal

[imjagain]

I have to say one more thing about Carole's "dig" "non dig", it made me laugh that some see it as dig some not, but the best part is some see it aimed at Lu and others see it aimed at Beth, lol, sorry that make me lol. Carole gets us all!

[Sincerely Yours]

I don't know, I will wait until the episode airs to make the judgement. Maybe she is sensitive about the age difference. LuAnn is the one trying to shame Carole, without bringing up the fact that she married a much older man herself.

Well women do mature faster than men sooooo. Yuck, how much younger does that REALLY make Adam than Carole?  LOL. And doesn't that close the age gap that much more for Luanne and her Count? Heee...

[Mrs peel]

Oooh, subset, celebrities in bathrooms.  I was once in a bathroom with Madonna (in the 80s, before she lost her cool). /1

 

 

/1  Never actually saw her, the restaurant had multiple individual bathrooms within the women's room.  First I knew she was in the restaurant was when I came back to the table and my friend asked me, all excitedly, did you talk to Madonna?  Sigh.....

[Trooper York]

Wait a minute! Have we ever actually seen Sonja's panties?

Other than the time she used them to clean the toilet.

[mostlylurking]

 

Between this and last season's "motherfucker" incident, any respect for I had for this woman has disappeared faster than Sonja's panties.

I disagree with everything you said but this comment made me laugh!  That's pretty fast indeed :)

[Sincerely Yours]

I have to say one more thing about Carole's "dig" "non dig", it made me laugh that some see it as dig some not, but the best part is some see it aimed at Lu and others see it aimed at Beth, lol, sorry that make me lol. Carole gets us all!

See I'm with you. I'm more inclined to see it as her opening her mouth in a moment that didn't require her input. It's more about her keeping her overbearing bite shut. Plain and simple!  Also any chance that I don't have to see those chattering teeth of hers flap the better so this was a definite fail in that regard. LOL!

[ghoulina]

I think part of Heather's problem is that this is becoming the Bethenny show with cameo appearances by the rest of them. I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't all, with the exception of Sonja, who doesn't know which way is up, a little annoyed that Bethenny is back. Of course, if Bethenny wasn't back, Hannah might be given more time, and that possibility is too horrid to entertain.

 

Would any of them have known that yet, though? I guess we can't say for sure without being on the production team, but it's possible that all the women were filmed equally and now that the show has been edited and is airing they're seeing just how much air time has been given to Bethenny. 

[shoegal]

Well women do mature faster than men sooooo. Yuck, how much younger does that REALLY make Adam than Carole? LOL. And doesn't that close the age gap that much more for Luanne and her Count? Heee...

LuAnn is a decade older than Jaques. She's got no room to talk IMO.

Edited May 18, 2015 by shoegal

[lunastartron]

Persnickety, I think it's clear that Heather was taking notes when Carole grabbed Aviva's face in Aviva's home and then ran to Harry and Reid in order to tell them, "your wife is not a good person.". . . Shoegal, so we've established that Carole making a factual statement to B and LuAnn constitutes just that- a factual statement. But LuAnn making a demonstrably true remark to Carole is "shaming." If Lu is obligated to refer to Alex is discussions of age disparities, why is Carole likewise not required to temper her insights into LuAnn's origins with allusions to her own origins? Our mileage varies. I think LuAnn can be *pretentious* but I feel that's distinct from trying to hide where she hails from . . . WireWrap, I don't see how Bethenny's report to Heather about the dress line viewing factors into Heather's inability to decide whether she hates Sonja or is concerned about her. We didn't view Bethenny's conversation with Heather, so it's inconsistent to me that it is viewed as pot-stirring while Heather's unnecessary perpetuation of the Kristen/invite disgruntlement was just evidence of a desire to helpfully clue in Beth on events that had transpired. In any case, no one made Heather carry Sonja to her bed after Sonja has been ungrateful and dismissive of her. She has her own agency, so it's weird to watch her express so much vitriol toward Sonja like she's been aggrieved by Sonja's intoxication. Don't want to ferry a drunk back to her bed? Don't do it. And if you do because you feel ethically obligated, then props for your conscience. But don't then turn around and act like it was just such an imposition. There's definitely a way to address substance abuse problems, and I think Sonja definitely needs a reality check. But the way to do it, imo, is not to focus on the trouble and inconvenience it has caused you in a talking head.

[Trooper York]

They have to know that there are too many women in the cast so they are fighting like crabs in a bucket for airtime. You have to bring the drama to get face time so it looks like they have all ramped up the crazy.

[archer1267]

There are many, many other "housewives" in the franchise that talk much more about how fabulous they think they are, and with much less basis, than does Carole.

 

 

God, yes. I am re-watching Season 2 and the self-praise is rampant. Let's also not forget Alex's comments like "I was lucky to be born with good genes." Alex was not generally regarded to be a great beauty but that didn't get in the way of her chutzpah (or Simon's) where her "figgah"* was concerned.

[Bossa Nova]

 

 

Hmmm, maybe there should be a thread devoted solely to translating Sonja's delusions?

I suspect she barely ever leaves that townhouse.  We know she has no dough to travel, unless Bravo or someone else pays absolutely ALL of her expenses.  But at least she seems to be able to pay her electric bill cuz there are always lights on in every window whenever I've passed by.  Anyhoo, when I passed by this morning, on my way to work, I noticed she had all of her windows wide open.  Seemed to me like such an odd thing to do -- certainly for safety reasons & also cuz it's so uncomfortably humid out.  Maybe the interns are cleaning?  Or she can't afford air conditioning?

 

 

Bingo. Hand up. New Jersey resident here, Scoobs, and I know how unseasonally humid it was Sat/Sunday, May 16- 17th. Yep, I will bet you are correct. Sonja was trying to keep the a/c bill low. Nothing wrong with that. Yet, I think there's a not enough dough to run that house. The amount of $$ it takes to heat/cool/ do appropriate upkeep, etc. ...Sonja just can't afford. 

 

Please continue to keep us posted on what you see on your daily walk by. Very interesting.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Bossa Nova

[ryebread]

If anybody stood in *my* home screaming at me that I was a fucking bitch, I can guarantee that heifer would have her umbrella implanted up her ass and hop her way pogo-style back to her own home.

 

I can think of no acceptable reason on any level that can justify Heather screaming at Sonja in Sonja's home in such a foul manner.

 

Yeah yeah, I know Heather apologists will have a field day defending her actions but I'm not bothering to respond.

 

That's my opinion and that's how I'd have handled Heather's outburst.

 

Between this and last season's "motherfucker" incident, any respect for I had for this woman has disappeared faster than Sonja's panties.

 

Holla!!!

 

LOL.  I wrote a response to WireWrap's post below.  Before I hit, 'Reply', my mother called.  And I lost the post.  Came back and here you are, basically saying, in a much more colorful way than I had, everything that I was going to say.

 

Heather did nothing wrong IMO, an apology from Sonja would have ended the discussion but Sonja just had to keep poking Heather.

I didn't see Sonja poking Heather.  Yes she was rude and unprepared, for whatever reason.  When Heather called her a fucking bitch after being denied access to the upper reaches of Sonja's lair, I think that's when the 'ladies' found themselves kicked to the curb.  So when Sonja finally got into the car and said, "Heather, we can't go on a trip together and not be talking to each other..." she was addressing the elephant in the room that needed to be addressed.  I ididn't think that was poking at all.

 

ETA:  Sonja should have apologized and she did in a half assed sort of way.  But did Heather apologize?  Has Heather every apologized for anything?    In Montana she should have apologized to Kristen, but somehow Kristen ended up apologizing to her. LOL.  How does that happen?

Edited May 18, 2015 by ryebread

[Celia Rubenstein]

Well, then LuAnn should have thanked Carole for reminding everyone that LuAnn is in fact, PROUDLY from Connecticut, it could have given her a great opportunity to give thanks for her humble Connecticut origins. Instead, when asked about it on WWHL, LuAnn chose to highlight the fact that she married a European and spent many years living in Europe. Playing up the European aspect, not the humble Connecticut born one.

 

Luann's was trying to explain that Bethenny knew her much better than Carole did, and she mentioned her time in Europe as something Bethenny knew that Carole seemed to either not know or not appreciate.  She was halfway discounting/ halfway making an polite excuse for Carole's stupid comment, not trying to show off the fact that she had spent time in Europe.  

Edited May 18, 2015 by Celia Rubenstein

[shoegal]

Shoegal, so we've established that Carole making a factual statement to B and LuAnn constitutes just that- a factual statement. But LuAnn making a demonstrably true remark to Carole is "shaming." If Lu is obligated to refer to Alex is discussions of age disparities, why is Carole likewise not required to temper her insights into LuAnn's origins with allusions to her own origins? Our mileage varies. I think LuAnn can be *pretentious* but I feel that's distinct from trying to hide where she hails from . .

As I said, I am reserving judgement regarding that particular scene until I actually see it, because I don't know what Carole's full response is yet. I can't judge based on a five second clip.

However, LuAnn has absolutely been shaming Carole over the age difference between Carole and Adam, she's on Twitter talking about Carole "preying" on her "friends". That is a very deliberate connotation. LuAnn says Carole is a "disgrace and embarrassing to women our age". I have yet to see any reference to her own history of dating and marrying men who are much older or much younger than herself. If she concedes this point during the scene with Carole in the next episode, I will happily retract my statements about her being a big fat hypocrite. Until then...

Luann's was trying to explain that Bethenny knew her much better than Carole did, and she mentioned her time in Europe as something Bethenny knew that Carole seemed to either not know or not appreciate. She was halfway discounting/ halfway making an polite excuse for Carole's stupid comment, not trying to show off the fact that she had spent time in Europe.

Carole didn't know about LuAnn living in Europe? Didn't LuAnn make sure Carole knew when they were in London and Carole mentioned she lived there after Anthony died? LuAnn sure seemed to want Carole to know she lived in Europe, too!

...but LuAnn doesn't care if anyone knows she lived in Europe. But did she mention she lived in Europe? Because she did. Live. In Europe.

Edited May 18, 2015 by shoegal

[Celia Rubenstein]

Luann was being psuedo-polite when she suggested maybe Carole didn't "know." Of COURSE Carole knows Luann lived in Europe for many years.  That is what makes Carole's comment so petty and shitty and such a transparent jab at Luann.

 

Carole is a master at shanking a bitch with a small, seemingly innocuous comment.  Her statement may be truthful, may be accurate ... but what she says is not meant to simply convey truthful accurate information - it's to take a shot at somebody.  To diminish them.  This comment to Luann is cut from the same cloth as that crap she said about Ramona not fitting into her dress, or not dating since the Berlin Wall fell.  Sure, technically it may be accurate ... but she is not saying it to convey information or even in a misguided attempt at humor.  She is being a little bitch.   

 

She's really not fooling too many people with her little act anymore.  She really should consider dropping it.

[Sincerely Yours]

Luann was being psuedo-polite when she suggested maybe Carole didn't "know." Of COURSE Carole knows Luann lived in Europe for many years.  That is what makes Carole's comment so petty and shitty and such a transparent jab at Luann.

 

Carole is a master at shanking a bitch with a small, seemingly innocuous comment.  Her statement may be truthful, may be accurate ... but what she says is not meant to simply convey truthful accurate information - it's to take a shot at somebody.  To diminish them.  This comment to Luann is cut from the same cloth as that crap she said about Ramona not fitting into her dress, or not dating since the Berlin Wall fell.  Sure, technically it may be accurate ... but she is not saying it to convey information or even in a misguided attempt at humor.  She is being a little bitch.   

 

She's really not fooling too many people with her little act anymore.  She really should consider dropping it.

Awesome! Awesome! And absolutely worth Carole's consideration!!

 

ETA: Love ya to bits but one thing I will disagree with is Carole's masterful shanking. She THINKS she being coy, witty and subtle while staying innocent. I think we both agree that that bitch is far from masterful but she does get an E for Effort considering she's making the attempt over and over and over and over again. With not much success of course.. ;-)

Edited May 18, 2015 by Sincerely Yours

[shoegal]

Luann was being psuedo-polite when she suggested maybe Carole didn't "know." Of COURSE Carole knows Luann lived in Europe for many years. That is what makes Carole's comment so petty and shitty and such a transparent jab at Luann.

Carole is a master at shanking a bitch with a small, seemingly innocuous comment. Her statement may be truthful, may be accurate ... but what she says is not meant to simply convey truthful accurate information - it's to take a shot at somebody. To diminish them. This comment to Luann is cut from the same cloth as that crap she said about Ramona not fitting into her dress, or not dating since the Berlin Wall fell. Sure, technically it may be accurate ... but she is not saying it to convey information or even in a misguided attempt at humor. She is being a little bitch.

She's really not fooling too many people with her little act anymore. She really should consider dropping it.

It's diminishing to not be European? Or to be from Connecticut?

It's only a jab at LuAnn if LuAnn wants to be perceived as European.

Edited May 18, 2015 by shoegal

[WireWrap]

So Carole should be saying, "Damn right, I like my men 'Sonja young'!" And that she's not but, rather, grimacing suggests she's sensitive, embarrassed, and or advancing pretensions?

She could have also pointed out that LuAnn has no problem sleeping with a guy in his twenties either! LOL

 

I don't know, I will wait until the episode airs to make the judgement. Maybe she is sensitive about the age difference. LuAnn is the one trying to shame Carole, without bringing up the fact that she married a much older man herself.

LuAnn has slept with and had a 4 year relationship with someone 10 years her junior and even tried to use the "I'm trying to get pregnant" storyline even though it was reported by her own mother that she had her tubes tied long ago.

 

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Persnickety, I think it's clear that Heather was taking notes when Carole grabbed Aviva's face in Aviva's home and then ran to Harry and Reid in order to tell them, "your wife is not a good person.". . . Shoegal, so we've established that Carole making a factual statement to B and LuAnn constitutes just that- a factual statement. But LuAnn making a demonstrably true remark to Carole is "shaming." If Lu is obligated to refer to Alex is discussions of age disparities, why is Carole likewise not required to temper her insights into LuAnn's origins with allusions to her own origins? Our mileage varies. I think LuAnn can be *pretentious* but I feel that's distinct from trying to hide where she hails from . . . WireWrap, I don't see how Bethenny's report to Heather about the dress line viewing factors into Heather's inability to decide whether she hates Sonja or is concerned about her. We didn't view Bethenny's conversation with Heather, so it's inconsistent to me that it is viewed as pot-stirring while Heather's unnecessary perpetuation of the Kristen/invite disgruntlement was just evidence of a desire to helpfully clue in Beth on events that had transpired. In any case, no one made Heather carry Sonja to her bed after Sonja has been ungrateful and dismissive of her. She has her own agency, so it's weird to watch her express so much vitriol toward Sonja like she's been aggrieved by Sonja's intoxication. Don't want to ferry a drunk back to her bed? Don't do it. And if you do because you feel ethically obligated, then props for your conscience. But don't then turn around and act like it was just such an imposition. There's definitely a way to address substance abuse problems, and I think Sonja definitely needs a reality check. But the way to do it, imo, is not to focus on the trouble and inconvenience it has caused you in a talking head.

 

LOL.  I wrote a response to WireWrap's post below.  Before I hit, 'Reply', my mother called.  And I lost the post.  Came back and here you are, basically saying, in a much more colorful way than I had, everything that I was going to say.

 

I didn't see Sonja poking Heather.  Yes she was rude and unprepared, for whatever reason.  When Heather called her a fucking bitch after being denied access to the upper reaches of Sonja's lair, I think that's when the 'ladies' found themselves kicked to the curb.  So when Sonja finally got into the car and said, "Heather, we can't go on a trip together and not be talking to each other..." she was addressing the elephant in the room that needed to be addressed.  I ididn't think that was poking at all.

 

ETA:  Sonja should have apologized and she did in a half assed sort of way.  But did Heather apologize?  Has Heather every apologized for anything?    In Montana she should have apologized to Kristen, but somehow Kristen ended up apologizing to her. LOL.  How does that happen?

I never saw/heard Heather "screaming" at anyone, did she swear and raise her voice, yes, scream, no. The first thing Sonja should have done was apologize to everyone but she chose to confront Heather instead. IMO, she did not apologize at all, Bethenny tried really hard to get her to but she refused.

 

I refuse to take Sonja's word alone about anyone screaming or charging up the steps.

Edited May 18, 2015 by WireWrap

[Sincerely Yours]

It's diminishing to not be European? Or to be born in Connecticut?

It's only a jab at LuAnn if LuAnn wants to be perceived as European.

Does intent not play a factor? I'm confused. Someone intentionally slights me but I choose to let it roll off my back in order for it not to be a big deal and that absolves the mean spirited act or behavior?  That's new to me but hey MMV and all that jazz. Also, I've mentioned it before but now I want to specifically ask can anyone explain to me how logical Carole's comment was with regards to the conversation at hand if it wasn't a jab? Can anyone actually see or explain how that comment flows or has any relevance or contributes logically whatsoever? If it wasn't a jab it just comes across as mindless babble from Carole so either way Shut Up Carole!!!

Edited May 18, 2015 by Sincerely Yours

[shoegal]

She could have also pointed out that LuAnn has no problem sleeping with a guy in his twenties either! LOL

 

LuAnn has slept with and had a 4 year relationship with someone 10 years her junior and even tried to use the "I'm trying to get pregnant" storyline even though it was reported by her own mother that she had her tubes tied long ago.

LOL, yes, but did she refer to herself as a GIRL!?!?

[breezy424]

She could have also pointed out that LuAnn has no problem sleeping with a guy in his twenties either! LOL

 

LuAnn has slept with and had a 4 year relationship with someone 10 years her junior and even tried to use the "I'm trying to get pregnant" storyline even though it was reported by her own mother that she had her tubes tied long ago.

 

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Persnickety, I think it's clear that Heather was taking notes when Carole grabbed Aviva's face in Aviva's home and then ran to Harry and Reid in order to tell them, "your wife is not a good person.". . . Shoegal, so we've established that Carole making a factual statement to B and LuAnn constitutes just that- a factual statement. But LuAnn making a demonstrably true remark to Carole is "shaming." If Lu is obligated to refer to Alex is discussions of age disparities, why is Carole likewise not required to temper her insights into LuAnn's origins with allusions to her own origins? Our mileage varies. I think LuAnn can be *pretentious* but I feel that's distinct from trying to hide where she hails from . . . WireWrap, I don't see how Bethenny's report to Heather about the dress line viewing factors into Heather's inability to decide whether she hates Sonja or is concerned about her. We didn't view Bethenny's conversation with Heather, so it's inconsistent to me that it is viewed as pot-stirring while Heather's unnecessary perpetuation of the Kristen/invite disgruntlement was just evidence of a desire to helpfully clue in Beth on events that had transpired. In any case, no one made Heather carry Sonja to her bed after Sonja has been ungrateful and dismissive of her. She has her own agency, so it's weird to watch her express so much vitriol toward Sonja like she's been aggrieved by Sonja's intoxication. Don't want to ferry a drunk back to her bed? Don't do it. And if you do because you feel ethically obligated, then props for your conscience. But don't then turn around and act like it was just such an imposition. There's definitely a way to address substance abuse problems, and I think Sonja definitely needs a reality check. But the way to do it, imo, is not to focus on the trouble and inconvenience it has caused you in a talking head.

 

I never saw/heard Heather "screaming" at anyone, did she swear and raise her voice, yes, scream, no. The first thing Sonja should have done was apologize to everyone but she chose to confront Heather instead. IMO, she did not apologize at all, Bethenny tried really hard to get her to but she refused.

 

I refuse to take Sonja's word alone about anyone screaming or charging up the steps.

Me neither.  And I never heard her call Sonja a f'ng bitch.  When was that?  According to Sonja's blog, Heather started up the stairs and yelled, 'We're leaving without you."

[Celia Rubenstein]

It's diminishing to not be European? Or to be born in Connecticut?

It's only a jab at LuAnn if LuAnn wants to be perceived as European.

 

Carole's little barb really has nothing to do with the relative desirability of being from Connecticut or Europe.  She is trying to embarrass Luann by making her look like some kind of poseur. 

 

 

But see how you've been drawn off by that idea? That is what Carole is counting on.  Just the same as people were supposed to be distracted by whether or not Ramona could actually fit into her dress or hadn't actually dated since the 80's. She wants people to excuse her comments as reasonable and inoffensive when that was not her real intention at all.

 

Plausible deniability, that's what politicians call it.

[shoegal]

Does intent not play a factor? I'm confused. Someone intentionally slights me but I choose to let it roll off my back in order for it not to be a big deal and that absolves the mean spirited act or behavior? That's new to me but hey MMV and all that jazz. Also, I've mentioned it before but now I want to specifically ask can anyone explain to me how logical Carole's comment was with regards to the conversation at hand if it wasn't a jab. Can anyone actually see how that comment flows or has any relevance or contributes logically whatsoever? If it wasn't a jab it just comes across as mindless babble from Carole so either way Shut Up Carole!!!

It would only be an intentional slight if Carole knew that LuAnn wants to be perceived as being European. If LuAnn didn't want people to perceive her as European, it wouldn't even be considered a slight or a jab by anyone, Carole and LuAnn included.

As far as how the comment fits into the conversation, Carole thinks LuAnn would look good in longer hair, Bethenny says it's "so European" to have short hair, Carole points out that LuAnn is not European....so that shouldn't be a reason to have short hair. It was simply taking away a reason Bethenny was giving as to why LuAnn should not try longer hair. At the end of the day, I think Carole was just talking about hair, and why LuAnn should get rid of her feathered, dated, dorky hairdo.

Edited May 18, 2015 by shoegal

[Trooper York]

Maybe Luann should wear pigtails or one of Herman Munster's old sweat socks on her head.

I know Carole feels that is the height of fashion.

[Persnickety1]

Me neither.  And I never heard her call Sonja a f'ng bitch.  When was that?  According to Sonja's blog, Heather started up the stairs and yelled, 'We're leaving without you."

 

The audio with somewhat distorted visuals of the women in the house open up the episode.

 

The way it was aired was somewhat discombobulating because this exchange took place right at the very beginning of the episode from what looked like a street view through a foggy and rain-streaked window.  It was surreal.

 

Heather is loudly either proclaiming Heather is a bitch/fucking bitch or telling Sonja she is a bitch/fucking bitch.

 

It's at the very beginning so try to catch the episode again.  Granted it's Bravo and editing monkeys, so it's difficult to tell if indeed was saying it directly to Sonja or perhaps Sonja was upstairs and Heather was saying it about Sonja...although as loud as her voice appeared to be I think even the daft "Lady Morgan" would have had no problem hearing her.

 

If someone called me a fucking bitch in my own home, they would seriously wait an eternity to get an apology from me and would never darken my doorstep again.  

 

I don't disagree with Heather's assertion at all; however, I completely disagree with the foul and tactless way she asserted it.

Maybe Luann should wear pigtails or one of Herman Munster's old sweat socks on her head.

I know Carole feels that is the height of fashion.

 

With Alex's Herman Munster boots???

Edited May 18, 2015 by Persnickety1