S04.E22: Operation Mongoose: Part 1 / S04.E23 Operation Mongoose: Part 2

[Shanna Marie]

One issue with the way the AU worked was that if this was what was actually taking place in Isaac's novel, the novel was supposed to be some kind of subversive work exploring what was a hero and what was a villain and letting the villains win. Having Snow White and Prince Charming be the villains kind of works, except they don't have Snow White and Prince Charming's backstory. It's just the usual Evil Queen with a different name. If you're going to do Evil Snow White, then it needs to have something to do with Snow White other than the name. It could be that she's a brat who starts tormenting her stepmother when her father dies and drives her stepmother out of the castle to live in the woods with dwarfs. Or this happens after the poisoned apple spell is broken and she goes nuts getting her revenge. Or she was bad all along and the Evil Queen was just trying to save the kingdom from Snow's dark magic. Meanwhile, "Regina" isn't an iconic fairytale character. It's the Evil Queen who is known beyond this show, but the AU Bandit Regina had nothing of the Evil Queen to her. She had a mix of Snow's and Zelena's backstories. She was Snow White with a name change. She'd be a generic hero, and nobody would have recognized that she'd had a role reversal. Her being a hero wouldn't be at all interesting or surprising.

 

But if it's a world where villains win, then Rumple needs to be the Dark One who rules over all, with his adoring wife at his side. Regina needs to be happy and triumphant. Captain Hook should be on top of the world.

 

Except that would be hard to tell from the regular way the show goes, in spite of all the "villains don't get happy endings" talk.

[Dani-Ellie]

Isaac being kind of a crappy writer was a plot point that was introduced in the first scene. All of the acclaim for Isaac's novel about subverting heroes and villains was fake, created by Isaac in a self-congratulatory flight of fancy. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that what he thought he was creating being off the mark from what he actually created is an intentional thing.

[FurryFury]

One issue with the way the AU worked was that if this was what was actually taking place in Isaac's novel, the novel was supposed to be some kind of subversive work exploring what was a hero and what was a villain and letting the villains win. Having Snow White and Prince Charming be the villains kind of works, except they don't have Snow White and Prince Charming's backstory. It's just the usual Evil Queen with a different name. If you're going to do Evil Snow White, then it needs to have something to do with Snow White other than the name. It could be that she's a brat who starts tormenting her stepmother when her father dies and drives her stepmother out of the castle to live in the woods with dwarfs. Or this happens after the poisoned apple spell is broken and she goes nuts getting her revenge. Or she was bad all along and the Evil Queen was just trying to save the kingdom from Snow's dark magic. Meanwhile, "Regina" isn't an iconic fairytale character. It's the Evil Queen who is known beyond this show, but the AU Bandit Regina had nothing of the Evil Queen to her. She had a mix of Snow's and Zelena's backstories. She was Snow White with a name change. She'd be a generic hero, and nobody would have recognized that she'd had a role reversal. Her being a hero wouldn't be at all interesting or surprising.

But if it's a world where villains win, then Rumple needs to be the Dark One who rules over all, with his adoring wife at his side. Regina needs to be happy and triumphant. Captain Hook should be on top of the world.

Except that would be hard to tell from the regular way the show goes, in spite of all the "villains don't get happy endings" talk.

Yeah, I think it was this that offended me the most. If you just pay this AU a tiny amount of attention, it crumbles. I'm not quite a writer (even if I'd love to be, damn my anxiety), but even I could take it apart in a second. Edited May 13, 2015 by FurryFury

[YaddaYadda]

But if it's a world where villains win, then Rumple needs to be the Dark One who rules over all, with his adoring wife at his side. Regina needs to be happy and triumphant. Captain Hook should be on top of the world.

 

I think the only hero Rumple wanted to be around was himself.  Has magic, can slay ogres, saves babies from burning buildings...Regina was leaving the EF (just like Snow tried to do), Robin was retiring from being his own brand of hero, he stripped the ultimate hero from her powers and had her locked in the tower as some crazy woman.  

[Shanna Marie]

I think the only hero Rumple wanted to be around was himself.

And that works for the Rumple Sue fanfic part of the equation. But Isaac also had his personal beef with heroes and wanted to see them brought down a notch to show that they weren't so good. That's where the role reversing doesn't work so well. Turning Snow into the Evil Queen and Charming into her minion doesn't show that heroes suck and aren't any better than the rest of us because no one even pretends they're heroes here, and they're Snow and Charming only in name. Emma is only not a hero because she's in chains in a tower. The only one where Isaac's issues kind of make sense is Hook, if you consider his current situation in the real world, where he counts as a hero now. So in the AU, he may be handsome, but he's just a deckhand and he has no skills. Even there, it doesn't quite fit because that's not really showing that a hero isn't all that he's made out to be. Based on what Isaac said to Snow and David, you'd think he'd show the heroes giving in to temptations, doing more harm than good when they do their heroics, or having serious inner vices behind their heroic facades. So Robin Hood putting on a show of robbing the rich to give to the poor, but actually living in luxury. Bandit Snow acting like she represents the people against the Evil Queen while treating the dwarfs like slaves. David looking good on a white horse but being a drunk and leading his men into slaughter, from which he manages to escape by staying on the sidelines.

 

I guess a lot of it depends on how much Rumple dictated. I suppose he did himself, Emma, and Hook, but would he have cared about making Regina a heroine or making Snow a villain? That seems more like Isaac's touch, and that's where it doesn't seem to fit because Snow seemed to be winning. It was the last chapter of the book and she hadn't been defeated or brought down.

 

I'd be curious to know what the writers thought they were saying with this whole arc because I can't seem to pull a coherent theme out of it.

[tennisgurl]

I kind of thought, for a second, that the black goo swallowing up Regina (then Emma) was the Symbiot, and that this was going to bring Spiderman, and start a Marvel cross over. 

[KAOS Agent]

A lot of my dissatisfaction with the AU story is that it wasn't cohesive. There were two separate narratives. You had the Rumpel/Hook switch where each was given qualities that are not a part of their real persona. It worked in a heroes/villains swap because they ultimately showed that heroism isn't a label that you can just take, but it involves some work, sacrifice and a belief in yourself. Hook was not confident, untrained and weak, but there he was standing to protect some people he'd just met. It was his choice to sacrifice for their mission. Rumpel was a "hero" with all these shiny skills and the adoration of the people, but because he refused to sacrifice and work to continue to be a hero, he showed that at his core he really doesn't have the real qualities of one. This story showed why heroes win and villains lose and it's not simply because they were labelled one way or the other. 

 

On the other hand, we had Snowing v Regina part 5621354. This time Snow is the one with the dead true love - although apparently he was evil and cruel. so we're not supposed to feel bad for Snow because he was killed. In this story, we didn't get to see the bad choice/good choice dichotomy between the two. Snowing were in the story, but they were only there for entertainment value. They didn't really have a role in the main story. They weren't involved in the climax of the story. They were evil and never deviated from that role. They were just villains. However, Snow was still ruling the kingdom and we didn't see her lose anything. Regina's characterization made no sense to me because she was essentially just still Regina. Bitchy and sarcastic, just living in lesser circumstances. And then she died. She was supposed to be a hero in this story, yes? So her dying essentially says that the villains win and the heroes lose. This would work with Isaac's claim about the villains winning except that her death presumably wasn't in the story. She was just supposed to lose by having her soulmate (whom she hadn't even met until the last chapter of the book) marry someone else. That's not really a big victory for the villains especially since villains had nothing to do with Regina's loss and if Emma hadn't pushed Regina to chase after Robin, Regina wouldn't have really felt the loss all that much either.

 

When looking at the two stories in this way, I can see why I enjoyed the Hook/Emma/Rumpel stuff way more than the Regina/Snowing/Robin stuff. One had a narrative and a message that made sense while the other was just muddled and ultimately unfinished.

Edited May 14, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[kitticup]

I watched the episode. Overall I liked it. The second half was stronger than the first. Regina as bandit Snow didn't resonate with me. She didn't seem like someone who lived in a forest on the run. She was a little too polished. her hair and the way she carried herself said Park Ave girl slumming it for a weekend.

One thing I don't think anyone mentioned was when Charming stabbed Hook, he said "I never did like pirates". It made me chuckle because it is part of Charming. I would like backstory on this. Did someone he love get robbed by pirates? Did his family crops not get to market because a pirate ship boarded a transport vessel? What drives his hatred? I didn't like Charming in Season 1 but I have grown to like the character and actor. I hope A&E do right by Charming/Josh next season.

The death season was beautifully done. It felt like it was a scene from a movie with the sweeping music and slow motion fall to the ground. You better watch out Regina, cause Hook not only cries more beautifully than you he also dies more beautifully.

As for AU characters my favorites were evil war council (evil dwarves and Granny were awesome), Ginny was great as evil queen and wimpy Hook were my favorites. The actors did a great job and credibly built altered personas. I liked Knight Rumple (he was totally a Mary Sue), Poor hen pecked Charming, guard Lilly. I thought Emma and Henry were great. I liked that Henry finally seems past that really awkward stage.

I loved that the base character peaked through in the AU personalities. I liked that Rumple reverted to villian with a Hello Dearies even in the AU. I liked that Hook found his courage. Charming still hated pirates and still was falling Snow's leads. I agree several episodes in the AU world would have been great.

However, like coca cola, the story was all empty calories. Nice to watch but hardly substantive. If you think about this story too much so much of it falls apart.

I don't know how I feel about the cliffhanger. I've been burned on the past, so my expectations have been lowered. I thought Neverland could have been mind blowingy good but they didn't go for inherent character drama in their story and went Papa Pan (ugh). I am taking a wait and see approach.

ETA: I forgot Blackbeard. Charles Measure is a very attractive man, but he is so NOT sexy as Blackbeard, but I still love the character. I like seeing him come back. I would like him to make a deal with Davy Jones, like he has to get Davy's son ( Killian) to take his place in exchange for not being locked in Davy jones' locker.

On missed opportunity actually two missed opportunities. I would have loved it if Emma had said to AU killian , we make quite a team when they took down dragon lily. I also would have liked it if Emma had said "find/come save me" instead of I love you. The ILY could have happened in the bed scene, and the find me harken back to the Charming family motto , come save me Hackensack back New York Serenade.

Edited May 14, 2015 by kitticup

[Camera One]

I kind of wanted to see how Henry felt after he accepted he was all alone in Storybrooke.  This would have been akin to "Going Home", if there had been no time to make arrangements.  It was a little weird that he would go into a diner and ask if the waitress had seen the missing people.  There's no way Emma et al. would have just driven out of town with every inhabitant.  

 

It would have been a nice parallel to the pilot to have a scene of Henry arriving in the city in a bus, reading Isaac's book.  

[myril]

Isaac being kind of a crappy writer was a plot point that was introduced in the first scene. All of the acclaim for Isaac's novel about subverting heroes and villains was fake, created by Isaac in a self-congratulatory flight of fancy. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that what he thought he was creating being off the mark from what he actually created is an intentional thing.

Agree, bad fiction is exactly as what I try to see the AU. An overly simplified, superficial version of most characters and their background, stories, except the few villains Isaac more or less cared about, particular Rumple, because he did seem to have some things in common with him, so Rumple was the character Isaac likely was identifying with most.

As bad fiction it makes sense that it was not about the villains actually getting happy endings, but villains turning into heroes with happy endings - because there is a difference between favoring and liking a villain as simply brilliant villain or liking a villain as a misunderstood tragic person, who should get a second chance and become and be seen as better person.

Once doesn't have the first, the brilliant villain type. Pan and Cora come close, but look at how they softened Cora in between, making her look like some poor working girl who just was trying to achieve her dream of a better life, though by all, thus even evil means. And, while many overheard it, they even laid first ground for a possible sob story for Pan (sold as kid to work for a blacksmith), just that so far they didn't bother to dig deeper into his story.

Rumple, Regina, Zelena are all the misunderstood, tragic type of villain. Most people don't love them for being brilliant, chill inducing evil (which not even Rumple is), but they feel for them and eventually identify with them (if they like them).

Isaac would never have cherished actual villains, the evil. He fell for Cruella because he had sympathy for her, saw her as tragic character at first. It was never about giving villains a happy ending for him, it was about unveiling people usually seen as heroes as overrated, unsympathetic, arrogant ventures, while letting the poor, misunderstood, oppressed, overlooked peasant, who was forced into evil doing to survive, finally shine, become the beloved and celebrated hero. While Isaac babbled something about people being complex he himself had a rather simplifying view on people. He mistook his ailments, brooding and dwelling on his own fate as knowing more and better about the human psych in general. There is some brilliant literature written by people to work through their own issues, but usually it is not fairy tale happy ending stuff but a rather brutal look into the dark side of things.

Problem was IMO, that Isaac's view is not so far away from OUaT's approach to heroes and villains, regardless that they might have a different claim of showing people as complex. Nevertheless there should have been some difference, complex characters in "real" Storybrooke against their simplified, flat versions in Isaac's AU, a profound story with a number of elaborated strings for each main character against an incoherent, crude and shallow story compilation of a number of heroes and villains. In the AU we should have gotten a crude story filled with (inner) monologues of the heroes about how carrying and thoughtful they are and eventually sometimes torn and with grieve about what they have to do to safe the world and earn their happy endings, tons of cheesy dialogue full of empty, overblown phrases. The AU should have been all over the top.

Of course, most of the EF is over the top, so how to top that?

 

The AU was enjoyable when they went over the top, the evil dwarves, the evil round table, Rumple's entry as ogre slayer, Emma's crazy looking moment in the tower (being trapped in such an awfully written fiction should turn everyone noticing it crazy). And, geee, I got some sentimental Technicolor adventure or pirate movie feelings in between with Hook and Emma (The Black Swan from 1942, only that Emma is a blonde, some name coincidence here).

 

Could argue, that the moment Henry invaded Isaac's AU things started to change, the original, "real" identities of the characters began to emerge, shimmer through more and more, quite like in season 1 when Emma stayed in town and things and people began to gradually change, their true identities coming through without them knowing it. So maybe we didn't get to see the full version of Isaac's AU but one already changing and beginning to return to the "real" world.

 

Think because the shows writing showed a lot of weaknesses particular this half season, the difference between the show writers writing (flashbacks in the episodes before) and Isaac's writing in this episode was not as clear. It didn't feel quite like that this was Isaac's version, based on whatever Rumple told him, and not something we could have gotten at some point pretty much like that on the show itself, in its current universe, maybe just with other characters. In other words, this AU felt in its basics too much like something the show writers could write for their, original fairy tale worlds and Storybrooke.

As I see it, ironically, the AU by lack of contrast , the whole Author arc revealed some of the shows weaknesses, unintentionally. Guess that was hardly the meta the show runners were looking for.

By the way, I don't quite get the idea on Walt Disney as possible former Author, because while Disney might have had some talent as story teller he was mainly a great business man, a film producer with great marketing sense (he has on imdb 11 credits as writer, compared to 657 credits as producer). Which gives what the boss says to Isaac in the beginning a special note IMO.

Edited May 14, 2015 by myril

[MDKNIGHT]

If the author really had done what he SAID he was doing, the AU would have been much more interesting.  I read a book called Grendel when I was young which was the story of Baewulf from the point of view of the monster.  The humans were a bunch of superstitious hyperviolent drunks and the "monster" was actually very smart and evolved and you felt bad for him when Baewulf rips his arm off.  Something like that would have been cool.  I think something like the Angelina Jolie version of Malifecent may have also worked.

[YaddaYadda]

Did his family crops not get to market because a pirate ship boarded a transport vessel?

 

His family farm was in direct competition with the self-sustaining pirates who were selling homemade organic desserts instead of taking to the sea.

 

All joking aside, I think that was David coming through more than anything.  Pirates are villains, period, which explains his dislike of them in both reality and the AU.  All we have to do is remember Neverland.  David didn't start warming up to Hook until after he saved his life and even then...

 

One of the things that I really liked was the callbacks they did to last season's finale, one among them was when Hook was telling David he'd go to the end of the world for Emma and in this finale, David asking Hook if his life is worth hers.  I thought that was neat.

[snarkastic]

I just re watched with my parents and while I didn't like the episode as much the second time, I feel better about the AU role reversals.

First, my dad kept complaining every 5 seconds that the story is already changed with Henry there. I was getting annoyed and continuously explaining that it's likely telling Zelena getting ready for her wedding or something in the book but other characters don't stop existing. So while Henry is interacting with characters it doesn't mean the book is changing. (Also could be during a 'later that day' line)

Secondly, I don't believe I'm defending the writers here, Henry arrives at the END of the story. We have no idea when the story started or whose perspective it's from. Snow White could have started out as the hero but had her true love killed hence a hero ending the story with a sad ending. And Rumple could've started similar to how he was but shared true love's kiss with Belle and now he's hailed as a hero at the END of the story.

Basically since we came in at the end of the story, we can't judge whether the premise is accurate or not.

Edited May 14, 2015 by snarkastic

[YaddaYadda]

I sort of disagree.  While the story at the start was unchanged because most of it was already told, the second Henry landed in the EF and Rumple saved him, the story began to change.  The Author also changed it when he went to Snowing and then to Rumple.  Hook changed it when he decided to follow Henry and help save Emma and then to sacrifice himself.  Rumple calling Emma, Regina and Henry "Dearies"...all of that indicated that the story had indeed changed.  

 

I'm thinking Hook was supposed to remain a frightened deckhand and Regina was supposed to find passage out of the kingdom and Zelena and Robin were going to live their version of happily ever after and Rumple was going to remain a hero with no one ever finding out about Bae.

 

I thought the sort of missed opportunity was Snowing in the sense that the real change they had a hand in was Hook's death.  They didn't get to have that sort of self-awareness.

[snarkastic]

I'll say it again: we don't know what was written in the book. The scene could read 'Rumpelstiltskin saves the village from the ogre and returns home to his wife and child a true hero'. Nothing about that would be changed with Henry's appearance.

Other storylines could be finished and have no bearing on the last chapter. Like Snow White ends up turning into the Evil Queen at the end but not every detail of her evil reign effects the story. Hook could be the most irrelevant character not worthy of more than a description as Blackbeard's deckhand and his fate unimportant to the book. We'll never know.

It's kind of smart of A&E to only show the last chapter and none of the actual story. They don't have to do any work to make sure it makes sense or let anyone know what the story was supposed to end like.

Edited May 14, 2015 by snarkastic

[jhlipton]

Agree, bad fiction is exactly as what I try to see the AU. An overly simplified, superficial version of most characters and their background, stories, except the few villains Isaac more or less cared about, particular Rumple, because he did seem to have some things in common with him, so Rumple was the character Isaac likely was identifying with most.

That would be fine if the show acknowledged that the AU was bad fiction. A couple of lines from Emma or Henry as an aside would have done. The problem is that the writers of this show write bad fiction, so I for one am not sure they recognized that it was bad fiction.

[KingOfHearts]

Going over the Dark Emma twist, I believe it could have been a sizable cliffhanger if this show didn't make a habit of dropping grand setups. All loyal watchers, casual included, have become accustomed to not expecting consequences of any sort. It's closer to a MacGuffin than it is an actual game changer. Because Emma is a main character and this show doesn't know the definition of gutsy, you can count her going back to normal by the end of next season. This isn't the first time there's been angst over a missing loved one. It's not so much about Emma's character as it is another curse causing mischief.

 

They don't leave the question of whether or not she'll be saved. We know she will be. That wouldn't be so bad if the quest itself was enjoyable, but that's rarely the case on this show. Suffice it to say, it's another case of something that could be potentially interesting if it were on any other fantasy drama.

Edited May 14, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[myril]

I just re watched with my parents and while I didn't like the episode as much the second time, I feel better about the AU role reversals.

First, my dad kept complaining every 5 seconds that the story is already changed with Henry there. I was getting annoyed and continuously explaining that it's likely telling Zelena getting ready for her wedding or something in the book but other characters don't stop existing. So while Henry is interacting with characters it doesn't mean the book is changing. (Also could be during a 'later that day' line)

 

I kinda agree with your father, I think, the story began to change the moment Henry invaded it. But okay, I sometimes can't get rid of my social science studies, where I learned, that even just your mere presence changes the setting for the people you are observing, and you have to be aware of that and consider it when drawing conclusions from what you observe. Henry interacted with the characters. It might have been though all naught, it wasn't recorded in Isaac's book or anywhere it seemed, so after the bells would have tolled, we can guess if Henry would have ceased to exist at all or just become some unnamed peasant or been thrown out of the book, and whatever he had done or said had been forgotten.

 

 

Secondly, I don't believe I'm defending the writers here, Henry arrives at the END of the story. We have no idea when the story started or whose perspective it's from. Snow White could have started out as the hero but had her true love killed hence a hero ending the story with a sad ending. And Rumple could've started similar to how he was but shared true love's kiss with Belle and now he's hailed as a hero at the END of the story.

Basically since we came in at the end of the story, we can't judge whether the premise is accurate or not.

 

Isaac said it himself to Henry, that in his book heroes get no happy endings. But what was Rumple seen as? As hero. It was made as clear, that Snow and Regina swapped places, Regina the outlaw running from Evil Queen Snow. Isaac told Snow, she was in love with James, who "was cruel... like you. You understood each other." Rumple had the memory, that his son was killed in the Ogre wars despite his, Rumple's  "heroic efforts" (Isaac's words). Even if Rumple and Zelena might have done evil things earlier in the book, at least Rumple was turned a hero and, as it seemed, getting his happy ending as such, not as villain. So it was not true, what Isaac told Henry, heroes were still getting happy endings in his book, but he changed who was seen as hero and who as villain.

 

Would have anyone remembered, that Snow was in other stories the good princess if Isaac's version would have become real? (yeah, getting headaches again with the whole premise of the Author)

 

Going over the Dark Emma twist, I believe it could have been a sizable cliffhanger if this show didn't make a habit of dropping grand setups. All loyal watchers, casual included, have become accustomed to not expecting consequences of any sort. It's closer to a MacGuffin than it is an actual game changer. Because Emma is a main character and this show doesn't know the definition of gutsy, you can count her going back to normal by the end of next season. This isn't the first time there's been angst over a missing loved one. It's not so much about Emma's character as it is another curse causing mischief.

 

They don't leave the question of whether or not she'll be saved. We know she will be. That wouldn't be so bad if the quest itself was enjoyable, but that's rarely the case on this show. Suffice it to say, it's another case of something that could be potentially interesting if it were on any other fantasy drama.

 

While I as well have no good expectation if it comes to the execution of Dark Emma, I think the writers did good jobs with cliffhangers in the final for season 1 (Magic came back to town, it had lasting effects) and 2 (they were in Neverland; okay Neal turned out to be alive fast, but cliffhanger doesn't mean it has to have lasting effect), and even 3 including Marian, she had some impact. And they did a good job again. It's not necessarily about creating angst for a character's life but can as much be about creating anticipation, and I think, assuming from what I've read on here and in other places, that a lot of people are excited to some degree or curious at least, about how it will turn out. Is Emma in some other realm and do they have to find her and look for Merlin, do they have to fight her, will she do evil stuff or manage somehow with some struggle to keep the evil at bay? I don't think it is about if Emma will be saved but how, and if she eventually will have to pay a high price for it, what is getting people excited. It seems to excite even people who weren't taken by surprise with the ending because of spoilers.  People will tune in for the next season opener, if they then will stay is another question. All we have been told, or showed, is that Emma absorbed the negative energy, the black, evil glue, and that her name now is engraved on the dagger, which had been known as the Dark One's dagger, that's it. At the moment there is plenty of anticipation and speculation where all this will go. Job done.

Edited May 14, 2015 by myril

[maryle]

I'm definitely curious about season 5 and Dark Emma I do dare to hope that Emma will have the focus with all the Charming clan and Hook Ofc.

So,I'm optimist for next season

I have zero expectation for the finale, I was sure to not like it.

All this half was a deceiving,for me.Sure  the finale could have been more edgy with the real villain winning like EQ still killing people treason but be loved because she organize Olympic... Ofc. But the final didn't suck, so big improvement I like it overall and really love CS on the part 2. Honestly, can you still hate them after the bed scene where both actor giggle and acting seem effortless.  Jen and Colin both deserve the Gold Medaille for the finale with a big big mention to G.G who  has proven she still a really good actress when she has something to play.

The other part fell  flat for me. I didn't care for OQ and the triangle.  I do like that Rumple was not redeemed.
Good point to the writer for that.

I liked Lilly for the first time and she can be Emma friend , I could buy it. The father must be someone from Camelot King Arthur, Merlin?

[maryle]

I have zero expextation when I saw the finale and it help me! So I'm late but I want to have fun too.

all this half was a deceiving, for me, sure the finale could have been more edgy with the real villain winning like EQ still killing people treason but be loved because she organize Olympic... Ofc. But the final didn't suck, so big improvement I like it overall and really love CS on the part 2. Honestly, can you still hate them after the bed scene where both actor giggle and acting seem effortless.  Jen and Colin both deserve the Gold Medaille for the finale with a big big mention to G.G who  has proven she still a really good actress when she has something to play.
The other part fell  flat for me. I didn't care for OQ and the triangle.  I do like that Rumple was not redeemed.
Good point to the writer for that

I'm surprise to like Liily, here she can stay as Emma friend for now. The father have to be Arthur or Merlin ?

[KAOS Agent]

Finale theme words update: We've come to the end of the season and it's time to tally up the final totals. The heroes annihilated the villains in the finale a whopping 18-9 taking home the prize for the most mentions 52-35. It's pretty much a Pyrrhic victory considering the heavy loss to the heroes at the end of the season. 

 

On the happy endings front we were just four mentions shy of it being used more in 4B than in the rest of run of the show combined, so I was kind of sad that we didn't make it. Still, 56 uses in 4B is nothing to sneeze at. Overall in Season 4, happy ending was used 76 times. For comparison, S1 = 11, S2 = 4 and S3 = 25. I'm really hoping they can tone down the happy ending thing for a while. I mean, it's a TV show. No one's getting a true happy ending until the credits roll on the series finale.

 

What can we look forward to in Season 5? Maybe the "darkness" count? Just for reference, "darkness" was used a total of 43 times in 4B, beating out the villains in their own theme season, so it'll take a lot to defeat 4B's grip as the King of Darkness.

Edited May 15, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

 

Finale theme words update: We've come to the end of the season and it's time to tally up the final totals

Thanks for counting for us, KAOS Agent! I found your tallies insightful regarding the show's focus and themes.

[Curio]

Still, 56 uses in 4B is nothing to sneeze at. Overall in Season 4, happy ending was used 76 times. For comparison, S1 = 11, S2 = 4 and S3 = 25. I'm really hoping they can tone down the happy ending thing for a while.

 

Damn, 56 mentions in 11 episodes? And the ironic/sad/depressing thing is that no one really got a happy ending out of this entire season.

 

Thanks for the weekly updates, KAOS Agent!

[YaddaYadda]

So, should we all pitch in for a Thesaurus?

[Curio]

Or just pimp out www.thesaurus.com to their Twitter accounts. 

[mjgchick]

Happy Endings is pretty much overrated when Emma still has to deal with the bullshit of getting screwed over. This is the only show where the villains have it so easy. Or at least the former ones I mean. The villains seem to die on this show unless you're Mal, Rumple, Regina and Hook.

Edited May 16, 2015 by mjgchick

[legaleagle53]

Isaac is still alive.

[RadioGirl27]

The villains seem to die on this show unless you're Mal, Rumple, Regina and Hook.

Not really, in four seasons, only Pan and Cruella have died. The rest are still alive and many of them are redeemed or, at least, considered redeemed. The heroes are the only characters constantly screwed up in this show.

[mjgchick]

Ingrid died as well.

[YaddaYadda]

Cora died.

 

I think we can also say that the old Rumple died metaphorically.

[mjgchick]

Tamara and Greg died as well so most villains do die except for the obvious ones and Zelena and Isaac. Maybe their punishment will be them locked up in that asylum. Storybook doesn't seem to have a prison or jail.

I think Rumple's probably dying at the end of season 5 tbh.

[legaleagle53]

Storybooke doesn't seem to have a prison or jail.

Storybrooke has a jail. Regina, Mary Margaret, Zelena, Rumple, and Ingrid have all been locked up in it at one time or another.

[RadioGirl27]

Cora died.

Tamara and Greg died as well

Wow, I think this proves how much I've blocked Season 2 from my mind.

Anyway, I don't see any problem with the villains dying.

[Guest]

Wow, I think this proves how much I've blocked Season 2 from my mind.

 

Maybe that's my problem.  I don't remember what exactly was so terrible about season 2.  I mean I know it had some horribleness with the Snow and heart black spot and Home Office and Pinocchio CGI.  But for every thing I can think of that was terrible, I can think of something comparable in 3B or 4B.  I don't have memories of it generally sucking with the clarity that I have for 3B and 4B (finales excluded).  I'm not saying it was good.  I just find it more forgettable. 

[Fable]

I just can't watch this show with any regularity any more.  I do keep up on it by reading recaps (and watching an episode now and again if the recap interests me) as well as watching clips on Youtube, because I did fall in love with most of these characters early on, and even though the show is sometimes too painful to watch, I am still curious about what is happening with them.  Watching periodically just works better for me.  I don't really have any expectations anymore, and I enjoy it more when I get to pick and choose which episodes I want to see and which ones I don't. 

 

I did end up watching most of the finale.  I saw the first full hour, which I actually thought was nonsensically fun.  However, I had an exhausting day at work and fell asleep somewhere during the second half, but I've read a recap, so I'm up to snuff.  So, Henry is the new author?  That's fitting, I guess.  Emma is the new Dark One?  Hmm, not sure what I think about that.  Might be that I should go back and watch the ending.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Maybe that's my problem.  I don't remember what exactly was so terrible about season 2.

Replying in All Seasons.

[jhlipton]

The thing is, if you just watch the 2 hour finale, and have skipped most of the crap leading up to it, it's not bad.  It's when it get put in context of "the villains get a happy ending" that it suffers.  And since nothing that happens in Storybrooke really impacts the AU, and absolutely nothing in the AU impacts Storybrooke, there's nothing keeping someone from just jumping right to the finale.

[Camera One]

I just did my rewatch of this episode.  I don't usually rewatch that soon after but my friend was only in town this weekend, and she wanted to finish the season.  

 

They really tried to re-do the pilot with Henry first finding Regina and saying "My name is Henry and I'm your son".   I realized why I didn't find Regina convincing as Bandit Regina.  Her language and demeanor was too modern.  It sounds like her dialogue was written to sound like she was Emma from the pilot, in Henry's first scene with her in the apartment in Boston.  

 

It's kind of typical of this show that Maleficent and Lily reconciled, and the very next episode, Maleficent was already MIA and Lily was already moving on to finding her father.  Hopefully, they're not done with the mother/daughter relationship already, but given the track record...  Though I did see Adam Horowitz explaining on Twitter that the Maleficent actress was filming a pilot.

 

The adventure with Henry was still fun once he got on the pirate ship, but the episode was a little repetitious with the dialogue about stopping Robin's wedding and Regina finding love.  The last 15 min with the Apprentice and the darkness transferring mess was still beyond dumb.  Emma's sacrifice was sad, but the mythology explaining it was too ridiculous.  Just don't think too much and it's okay, though.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Dark One Emma arose from the contrived plot involving Rumple's heart. It made sense but it was very out of the blue. (150 years and yet Rumple just now has a problem?) It had nothing to do with the AU. While it's a nice development, it's just as random as everything else on this show. In the end, Emma's fight with darkness, Zelena, the eggnapping, Lily and the Queens all meant nothing. It all came down to Rumple's heart. Way to go, 4B.

At least Elsa was a direct effect from the main threads in 3B. Zelena and her time portal. Dark One Emma spawned from a much lesser course of actions.

Edited May 17, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

The mythology was very confusing indeed. It's still not clear whether the "Darkness" would've killed the Apprentice and later Regina, or would've turned them into the next Dark One. Was the Dagger needed to channel the Darkness, as Emma did in the end? Did the Apprentice die? They should have kicked Rumple out of Storybrooke again--problem solved. Or "led" the Darkness across the Town Line, like they did the Chernabog.

Also, if Rumple's heart had completely blackened (great achievement, Rumple), would he have died and released the Darkness, or would the Darkness merely have taken over his body completely? Nothing was clearly explained.

[Guest]

The mythology was very confusing indeed. It's still not clear whether the "Darkness" would've killed the Apprentice and later Regina, or would've turned them into the next Dark One. Was the Dagger needed to channel the Darkness, as Emma did in the end? Did the Apprentice die? They should have kicked Rumple out of Storybrooke again--problem solved. Or "led" the Darkness across the Town Line, like they did the Chernabog.

Also, if Rumple's heart had completely blackened (great achievement, Rumple), would he have died and released the Darkness, or would the Darkness merely have taken over his body completely? Nothing was clearly explained.

 

Between Rumpel saying the imp was all that holding the Dark One back and the Dark One escaping and going for Regina, I think it needs a corporeal form but the ideal for it is one with no light left so it can have complete control.

 

So I think we can assume that Regina would become the Dark One but we don't know how close she was to going to completely dark as we haven't seen how charcoaled her heart is in a while.  Emma is certainly farther away and can hold off the Dark One longer which I guess is why she took the Dark One's power.

Edited May 17, 2015 by ParadoxLost

[Camera One]

 They should have kicked Rumple out of Storybrooke again--problem solved. Or "led" the Darkness across the Town Line, like they did the Chernabog.

 

 

Yes.  The climatic events at the end should have had a simple solution.  Even if the Darkness was too powerful to be sent over the Town Line.  Rumple minus his final humanity would still have been helpless across the Town Line.  That was the Blue Fairy's initial solution to getting rid of him as a threat for good.  The dumbass Apprentice trying put the blackness into the Hat even though he knew full well The Sorcerer's only solution was to tether it to a person was beyond stupid.  Then again, this is the same idiot who hires people based on what pen they chose, and trap them inside books with the key freely lying around.  That was his solution for Isaac yet again!  Does he not learn from his mistakes?  Camelot can't be any more "far away" than Neverland, Wonderland, or the Enchanted Forest.

 

When the episode got to the tolling of the bells part, I thought maybe the cliffhanger was that everyone would end the season stuck in the book, and 5A would be them trying to get themselves out.  I wouldn't have minded that for 5A, if we saw gradually Henry and Emma slowly turning characters back to their Storybrooke selves.  The only tweak would have been to not kill Hook and Regina, and maybe have them be kidnapped or otherwise needing to be saved.  Or they could have left much of the Alt Reality for 5A, and used half a season to escape the book.  This could allow them to flash back to Storybrooke.  Maybe each character will have a specific moment from Storybrooke that would switch their fake "Heroes and Villains" memories off, and Henry and Emma have to discover what that is.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

The climatic events at the end should have had a simple solution.  Even if the Darkness was too powerful to be sent over the Town Line.  Rumple minus his final humanity would still have been helpless across the Town Line.

So, basically it's all Robin's fault. Rumple was dying of heart problems in New York, and Robin, for whatever bizarre reason, decided that the villain who'd ruined or ended countless lives, who was dying of the consequences of his own evil, had to be saved via supernatural means, so he took the huge risk of breaking into the furniture store and stealing the potion to save Rumple. I suppose there's a chance that Zelena would have gone to get it if Robin hadn't, but she was arguing against doing so -- which was one of the signs that there was something wrong with "Marian" even though to me that sounded like common sense. Yeah, Rumple promised Robin the apartment, but guess what? If he died, they'd still have the apartment, wouldn't they?

 

If he'd just died in the World Without Magic, would the Dark One have been able to take over, or would it have died, too? And why should anyone go to great lengths to save the life of an evil person who is dying of the consequences of his own evil deeds, done over the course of centuries? I can see why killing him would be considered bad, especially when he's helpless -- so no unplugging the machines -- but why should anyone lift a finger to help Rumple at this point? It's only going to end up causing more harm if you save him. And, surprise, it did.

[babyPhat279]

So, I know he was being blackmailed by Rumple, but I still have a big problem with Hook just telling everyone NOW about the apprentice being in that box. That happened BEFORE HALLOWEEN. He has a phone now, can't he get an Evernote account to remind himself of important tasks? But I did like him being a wuss and drinking milk instead of rum, and relying on Henry to take down Blackbeard.

 

And did anyone else think about Mamma Mia when Lily said her mother didn't know who her dad was?

Edited May 17, 2015 by babyPhat279

[Rumsy4]

In the very first episode of 4B, he and Belle had a conversation about the "old man" he had helped Rumple hat. Hook just didn't know he was also the Apprentice.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Rumsy4

[KAOS Agent]

The climatic events at the end should have had a simple solution.  Even if the Darkness was too powerful to be sent over the Town Line.

 

Everything about that whole set up was stupid. I can't blame the Storybrookers for not wanting to kill Rumpel if it wasn't necessary. The Apprentice made it seem like he could pull the darkness into the hat and he was the "expert", so I can see why they would go along with it. Once it was loose, however, I think the writing failed to explain what was going on. Did the darkness kill the Apprentice and when it went after Regina, would it have killed her and moved on to someone else until it had destroyed everything? That seems to be in line with how the Apprentice described its activity prior to being tethered. However, the writers just couldn't help themselves and had Emma say that Regina had "worked too hard to lose her happy ending" before she grabbed the dagger to become the Dark One. Regardless of whether you agree with Emma's assessment in that statement, the bigger problem is that it muddles the idea that the Darkness would have killed everyone.

 

Was Emma only sacrificing herself to save Regina? If so, they're implying that Emma thinks that someone else deserves her happy ending more than Emma herself and everyone whose happiness is tied to Emma. That's an unfortunate implication - regardless of who the person being attacked is. That others were trying to convince Emma not to bind herself only lends further credence to the idea that only Regina was in danger. However, it doesn't track at all with what they had been told by the Apprentice in the previous scene. So why the hell would you have that line in there? What was the point other than some sort of inability to stop with the endless mantra that Regina deserves all the shinies? I don't even care if Regina does deserve everything she could ever want and she's the most heroic hero that ever heroed, that line should not have been said because it contributed nothing other than to create confusion about what exactly was going down with the Darkness. If Emma needed to sacrifice for everyone then whatever Regina does or does not deserve doesn't matter.

Edited May 17, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[YaddaYadda]

The Apprentice sure looked like he was dead after he said his piece.  I really took the whole thing as everyone was going to be killed and everything in the town was going to be destroyed and since Emma had the dagger, then she did what she had to do.  They didn't even have the time to talk about anything, they didn't have the time to have a plan for anything or make a collective decision as to what should happen.  The thing was on Regina nearly right away and Emma just acted because she has complete trust in the people she loves.

 

If we look at the whole thing, Regina didn't want her to do it either, but I do agree that the whole line about Regina's happy ending was just so out of place.  Emma could have said anything like I don't have light magic, so maybe it will offset things or turn to her parents right away and told them what she told them.  As a line it didn't have its place in such a drama filled moment.

[Rumsy4]

That line made it seems like Emma was doing it to prevent Regina from becoming the next Dark One and losing her Happy Ending because of that. So, I agree it was out of place and muddled the issue. I have read ten different explanations of that scene between here and tumblr, but don't see anything to confirm it one way or the other.

[Terrafamilia]

Questions, so many questions.

 

I, for one, did not see the Merlin reveal coming. They had been laying the groundwork for the Sorcerer to be Yen Sid. Otherwise, why the "sorcerer's apprentice", the design of the magic sucking hat, and the walking broom? What's the point of the misdirection?

 

If the Sorcerer/Merlin could destroy the evil smoke of evil, why didn't he do it already instead of binding it to some poor schmuck? Perhaps he wasn't able to at the time but now can? Is that why the magic sucking hat was made in the first place? Maybe it didn't work for the apprentice because it wasn't fully powered or because Rumple became far more powerful over the many years he was the Dark One than they had anticipated. If not, why was the hat created? Or did the Sorcerer not make it but only had it for safekeeping?

 

For a world without magic it sure seems like there's a lot going around with Isaac being a colossal success, complete with penthouse apartment. Or was it like Inception, that success took place in an AU from which they went into a deeper AU? But then again, the apprentice didn't seem to have a problem doing magic in the 'real world'. Unless Isaac's world of origin isn't the 'world without magic'. The rules on this don't seem very clear. Is it just magic artifacts that can still work like Rumple's scarf or Zelena's charm? But then again, the dragon mage could still do stuff.

Why does the Author have a magic reality-warping pen in the first place?

 

What kind of church do they have in the EF, either regular or AU? We have a chapel and some sort of fancy-robed personage officiating at the wedding. Is there a Christian church of sorts or is it Crystal Dragon Jesus? Oh no! I hope it's not Lily's dragondaddy!

 

Next season, Emmastiltskin!

[YaddaYadda]

Next season, Emmastiltskin!

 

Eww, why would you ever do that to us (by that I mean me)?

 

Dark!Swan.

 

If the Sorcerer/Merlin could destroy the evil smoke of evil, why didn't he do it already instead of binding it to some poor schmuck?

I asked the same question in another thread (I can't remember which one, too lazy to look it up).  I'm sure we'll get the explanation that makes the least sense from the show because that's how they roll.