S05.E03: High Sparrow

[Brn2bwild]

 

 

I too had wondered before why they hadn't sailed, but of course, if they had, then they wouldn't have bumped into Brienne & Pod

But while one can make arguments about which means of travel is better in terms of speed, safety, discretion, there seems less room for argument about not knowing the direction in which you're headed.

 

I guess they had to have Sansa travel by land if they wanted to make it remotely plausible she could reach the north at the same time Tyrion reached Volantis.

[Sakura12]

I think Cersei is overplaying her hand as well. Margaery is beloved by the poor and has helped them out which is what the Sparrows are doing. I'm curious what Cersei is going to do now since, Margaery not being a virgin was her plan in the books. She can't prove that now. If she goes with Margaery not being faithful that could blow up in her face with Lancel being a Sparrow. 

 

I'm not sure about Sansa replacing fake Arya. That poor girl going from horrible to even more horrible with her husband choices. I also thought for a second that they were going to have Arya get rid of needle. But of course the Faceless men will know that she did't give it up. 

[ElizaD]

My favorite character's story has been wrecked by the distasteful titillation of "watch and find out if Sansa is going to be raped like Jeyne Poole!" but I can't believe how much I'm liking the Wall this season. It's such a relief to have some variety up there.

 

Show Margaery is so needlessly and clearly catty that, despite Dormer's age, she's starting to seem far younger and less savvy than in seasons 2-3 and the books. The High Sparrow, on the other hand, seems like a less obvious fanatic than in AFFC. He's such a kindly old man (and a better actor than Margaery) that Cersei won't see it coming. It's unfortunate, though, that the show's love for poor Cersei and tendency to feel sorry for/smarten her means we won't have AFFC's paranoid, batshit insane Cersei. She was quality black comedy.

Edited April 27, 2015 by ElizaD

[Avaleigh]

My favorite character's story has been wrecked by the distasteful titillation of "watch and find out if Sansa is going to be raped like Jeyne Poole!" but I can't believe how much I'm liking the Wall this season. It's such a relief to have some variety up there.

 

Show Margaery is so needlessly and clearly catty that, despite Dormer's age, she's starting to seem far younger and less savvy than in seasons 2-3 and the books. The High Sparrow, on the other hand, seems like a less obvious fanatic than in AFFC. He's such a kindly old man (and a better actor than Margaery) that Cersei won't see it coming. It's unfortunate, though, that the show's love for poor Cersei and tendency to feel sorry for/smarten her means we won't have AFFC's paranoid, batshit insane Cersei. She was quality black comedy.

Cersei still has her amusing moments though. I loved the way she stepped forward and got close to Margaery for that brief moment and we see Margaery just for a couple of seconds lose her smile because Cersei really looks for a second as though she's about to wring her neck or at least say something cutting in front of all of her ladies.

 

I'm also amused by how she has this kind of macabre fascination with Qyburn's "work". She doesn't even need Gregorstein for anything specific yet. It's almost like she wants to know if this will be something she'll be able to ask of him again at a later date. (Maybe out of desperation she'll one day try to get him to bring Tommen back to life?)

 

I like how Meryn Trant cautions Cersei against going into the nest of the High Sparrow and she immediately brushes off his concerns because it felt like a nice call back to the flashback to young Cersei where Melara is warning her against going to see Maggy. She clearly hasn't changed. 

 

The High Sparrow does seem kind in a way but I doubt that'll last long. It's easy to say now since our only scene of him so far shows the guy handing out soup and bread to poor people lol, but if he's going to be on board with abusing and humiliating people for having sex outside of the bonds of marriage I'd say that the kindly label will definitely fly out of the window.  

 

If the Faceless Men are as good as they supposedly are then shouldn't they know that Arya has only hidden Needle? Wouldn't somebody have likely followed her? Surely she isn't the first novice to try to get away with hiding some personal item. 

Edited April 28, 2015 by Avaleigh

[The Mormegil]

 

I don't think you cast Rila Fukushima for a one and done.  I mean I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain she'll show up again.  I'm just not sure what context.

 

 

 

Probably as the Red Priest(ess) sent to Dany's Court (Moqorro in the books).

[Calamity Jane]

I'm finding that I have to watch an episode, check here to get clarifications, then go back and watch at least once more.  The first time through I get the broad strokes, then with help from everyone's comments, I can fill in much more detail.  I still don't know some of the minor characters well enough to recognize them when they pop in, so reading here helps tremendously.  Thank you, everyone!

[screamin]

In the books, does Sansa ever become aware of the role LF played in getting Ned executed? It is quite interesting to me that Show!LF has been able to conceal that from Show!Sansa, and it really opens the playing field, or make the ladder easier to climb, for LF, in that he can much more easily use the daughter of  the Hand of the King, that LF helped get executed, to, in turn, get over on the noble who took over Winterfell after the decimation of the Starks. 

 

Now, if Sansa ever becomes aware of LF's role in getting her father beheaded (think about how the image of Ned's head impaled on a stake must be imprinted on her memory), and Sansa continues to get better at deadly politics, how she puts forth a false, yet different, front to both the Bolton's and LF, while endeavoring to get the throats slit that she thinks need slittin', could be a rich story arc.

 

The answer is no, Book Sansa never learned that Littlefinger betrayed Ned to the Lannisters. The funny thing is, it's not exactly a huge secret - there were a hundred Gold Cloaks there in the throne room that day that SAW LF put a knife to Ned's throat after walking in as a friend at his side. Not to mention that Janos Slynt knew that Littlefinger was going to accompany Ned as his friend and then betray him, and he had to have told his men what was going to happen so they could act accordingly. And of a hundred men, you know SOME of them were going to talk.

 

The books seem to explain Sansa's ignorance of LF's treachery by specifying that no one in King's Landing was allowed to befriend and talk to her. But the Vale is different - we see Sansa happily gossiping with the servants and Myranda. To me, it seems inevitable that one day (probably soon) she'll overhear some Vale gossip about how Littlefinger first got into the favor of the Lannisters....

[HunterHunted]

So I'm not a book reader, but I loved this episode. I wanted to post in the non book thread, but I think my thoughts get into some stuff that hasn't been explored in the show with any real specificity. This episode was really about shifting identities and how often their identities invoked some aspect of the seven:

Arya is abandoning her Stark identity to become the stranger;

Sansa wants to be the stranger to seek vengeance until Littlfinger says play the maiden to be the stranger;

Jon is moving from the warrior to the father as he beheads Janos Slynt; and

Margaery and Cersei have and epic bitch off as Margaery moves Cersei firmly out of the maiden slot and then the mother spot and into the crone. While crone is the symbol of wisdom, I don't think Cersei has ever seen any strength in any of the women's aspects of the seven. I think Cersei has always seen herself as the warrior.

[Independent George]

But that is exactly what Book!Cersei thought she was doing when she armed the Faith Militant--trying to set them up as her shock troops. What she didn't understand, is that by definition the Faith Militant doesn't answer to her, and that she is in fact as subject to their power as anybody else.

 

It feels different, though. For starters, on the show, she's taking the initiative instead of reacting and arriving as a supplicant. Second, she doesn't just dive straight in to re-arming the faith militant; she's actually taking her measure of the man, and really, this High Sparrow seems a lot less crazy than the book version (for now, at least). Also, on the show, she never orders the assassination of the previous High Septon out of her paranoia over Tyrion. 

 

It's going to get us to the same place, but the sum of all the little differences in characterization since S1 really make me love Show Cersei so much more than Book Cersei. Also, LH; she's been one of my favorites on the show since the beginning.

[benteen]

The answer is no, Book Sansa never learned that Littlefinger betrayed Ned to the Lannisters. The funny thing is, it's not exactly a huge secret - there were a hundred Gold Cloaks there in the throne room that day that SAW LF put a knife to Ned's throat after walking in as a friend at his side. Not to mention that Janos Slynt knew that Littlefinger was going to accompany Ned as his friend and then betray him, and he had to have told his men what was going to happen so they could act accordingly. And of a hundred men, you know SOME of them were going to talk.

 

The books seem to explain Sansa's ignorance of LF's treachery by specifying that no one in King's Landing was allowed to befriend and talk to her. But the Vale is different - we see Sansa happily gossiping with the servants and Myranda. To me, it seems inevitable that one day (probably soon) she'll overhear some Vale gossip about how Littlefinger first got into the favor of the Lannisters....

 

The thing is, nobody seems to know about Littlefinger's treachery save for the people who were there and people like Tyrion.  Whenever Catelyn thinks about Littlefinger in ACOK and ASOS, it's never in a bad light so she doesn't seem to think he's betrayed Ned.  There isn't a reference from any of the Northern lords about what LF did.  On the show, Catelyn does accuse him of betraying Ned which made me think that it's as badly kept of a secret as Renly's sexuality is on the show.  If Littlefinger hadn't of held a knife to Ned's throat, I could see him escaping suspicion.  But he pulled a knife on Ned in front of an entire throne room of people and people LOVE to gossip in King's Landing and everywhere else.

[Hecate7]

The thing is, nobody seems to know about Littlefinger's treachery save for the people who were there and people like Tyrion.  Whenever Catelyn thinks about Littlefinger in ACOK and ASOS, it's never in a bad light so she doesn't seem to think he's betrayed Ned.  There isn't a reference from any of the Northern lords about what LF did.  On the show, Catelyn does accuse him of betraying Ned which made me think that it's as badly kept of a secret as Renly's sexuality is on the show.  If Littlefinger hadn't of held a knife to Ned's throat, I could see him escaping suspicion.  But he pulled a knife on Ned in front of an entire throne room of people and people LOVE to gossip in King's Landing and everywhere else.

This is one of the things that makes me doubt Catelyn's intelligence.

 

Brienne of Tarth knows Littlefinger can't be trusted. Tyrion, Varys, etc...I'm surprised that Shae didn't hear and tell someone. Roz warned her. Sansa will find out eventually.

[Cherpumple]

Now that so many things have gone off-book I almost feel like an unsullied viewer. Some of the changes are still quite jarring (like the Sansa/Ramsey thing), but for the most part I just shrug my shoulders and keep watching; although I'm pretty sure I'll be quite confused about some things by the time book 6 comes out. Just a few comments at the moment:

 

- I keep laughing at how quick and easy some of the travel through Westeros seems. Not only do people keep bumping into each other, but in this episode we have Cersei ask Qyburn to send a raven to the eyrie for Littlefinger, and in the very next scene not only had the raven arrived, but someone had taken it (by horse I think) from the eyrie to Winterfell. Easy peasy!

 

- I am definitely in the camp of not wanting to see Sansa undergo Jeyne Pool's fate, but I think we can all agree that Ramsey's definition of "hurting someone" doesn't match with most people's definition, so I don't have much confidence for her safety. I briefly wondered if they would go the route of his first wife, i.e. neglect and starvation, but probably not.

 

- LOVED the Cersei/Margery interactions- so bitchy! And that hug had all the warmth and affection of the Voldemort/Draco hug. "Well done, Margery..."

 

- Not sure how I feel about Tyrion's failure to engage the service of the girl in the brothel. Was it simple ED from too much drinking? Was it guilt about what he had done to Shae? (She was wearing a dress similar to the one Shae often wore) Was it something else? I'm not sure. But I know there has been speculation (and some dread) about the showrunners white-washing Tyrion's more distasteful personality traits during his downward spiral, and now I'm worried about this too. I love Tyrion, but I want him to be nuanced and flawed, and kind of an ass.

[Hecate7]

I get the feeling that the little changes to Tyrion are less about whitewashing him than they are about making him actually express what he was intended to express all along. He is plenty nuanced and flawed. He's just not so ghastly that you puke whenever he appears onscreen, which is how he'd be if they stuck with his "more distasteful personality traits."

[snakenax]

 

Probably as the Red Priest(ess) sent to Dany's Court (Moqorro in the books).

I'd also put good money on her taking on the role of Quaithe as well, since at this point in the books Quaithe is a reoccuring character in Dany's storyline, but the show pretty much forgot about Quaithe seasons ago.

[tennisgurl]

Watched the episode again, and I have to say, I like it a lot more the second time.

 

I was annoyed at first that the Jon at the Wall stuff wasnt just like it was in the book, but now, I think this works just as well. I love the wall stuff this season. Jon, in my opinion, really came into his own as a character when he become Lord Commander. Now, I always liked Jon, but this is where he really became one of my favorites.

 

I also really loved Stannis in this episode. He finally seemed like BookStannis. He had the perfect amount of stoic Stannis-ness, but also with more of an intelligence to him, and he seemed like a strong leader, in his way, not a guy being lead around by the dick by Mel. 

 

Loved the Pod and Brieanne stuff. It was some nice back story for both of them, and I am TOTALLY fine with them joining the Sansa/North story, instead of the wold goose chase/war is hell montage. The show knows that you cant have a million characters all wandering around, doing nothing. There was a lot I liked about that story line, but I`m ok with it being cut.

 

Sansa and Ramsy? We...will see where this goes. I don't see them doing the whole Jeyne Poole thing though. It wont be pleasant, I`m sure, but I don't think it will be THAT bad. She actually has people behind her, and they have completely given up on secrecy with her. Everyone knows she`s Sansa, and she is. This could go bad, but it could be interesting. I`m nervous though.

 

There were so many plot lines going, that I feel like I cant even comment on them right now. But, most importantly...needle! Oh Arya! My heart! 

[Dev F]

- I am definitely in the camp of not wanting to see Sansa undergo Jeyne Pool's fate, but I think we can all agree that Ramsey's definition of "hurting someone" doesn't match with most people's definition, so I don't have much confidence for her safety. I briefly wondered if they would go the route of his first wife, i.e. neglect and starvation, but probably not.

 

This actually brings up something I was thinking about earlier this evening. A lot of the fear of what will happen to Sansa comes from the fact that book!Ramsay is an unrepentant rapist who gets off on torturing and humiliating women in the most depraved ways imaginable. But when I thought about show!Ramsay, I realized that he hasn't actually been shown to have any of those traits. As far as we know, he didn't do anything to Lady Hornwood. And his favorite sexytimes companion seems to be Myranda, who's his partner in crime more than his victim.

 

Sure, he's still a sadist who'll torture and murder men and women alike for kicks. But sexually he seems primarily interested in strong women willing to freely share in his depravity, not beaten-down women he can force to do awful things. So while there are still terrible possibilities in Sansa's future -- that she'll have to choose between becoming the next Myranda or becoming the next Tansy -- I'm not sure there's a risk that she'll be the show version of Jeyne Poole.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Dev F

[Holmbo]

.

So I'm not a book reader, but I loved this episode. I wanted to post in the non book thread, but I think my thoughts get into some stuff that hasn't been explored in the show with any real specificity. This episode was really about shifting identities and how often their identities invoked some aspect of the seven:

Arya is abandoning her Stark identity to become the stranger;

Sansa wants to be the stranger to seek vengeance until Littlfinger says play the maiden to be the stranger;

Jon is moving from the warrior to the father as he beheads Janos Slynt; and

Margaery and Cersei have and epic bitch off as Margaery moves Cersei firmly out of the maiden slot and then the mother spot and into the crone. While crone is the symbol of wisdom, I don't think Cersei has ever seen any strength in any of the women's aspects of the seven. I think Cersei has always seen herself as the warrior.

I like that take on it. I've always really enjoyed the identity themes in the story and how the characters are trying to fit themselves into the limited roles available in their society.

I get the feeling that the little changes to Tyrion are less about whitewashing him than they are about making him actually express what he was intended to express all along. He is plenty nuanced and flawed. He's just not so ghastly that you puke whenever he appears onscreen, which is how he'd be if they stuck with his "more distasteful personality traits."

I agree. I think the show actually did a good job of showing he's digressed from what has happened to him and what his done. The show had him mature a lot over the seasons and now his back again to season one Tyrion except more annoying but not where-do-whores-go level annoying.

I want to add that I'm totally on board with Sansa in winterfell solely because I love Sophie Turners performance and would be happy to have her in every story line. I think so far it makes sense though I hope LF will be revealed to have some more plan rather than just to drop off Sansa there and see what happens. I also hope sansa will get a larger role than a victim but that Theon still will get the opportunity to save her.

I was not creeped out by Margaery and Tommen having sex. It was clearly consentual and that's all I'm asking for with this show.

I do have a feeling that them consumating means margaery and Tommen will both die in winds of winter so none of the changes made for them will have long time effect.

Also I was never a fan of LS but now after this scene with Brienne and Pod I really want her to be in just to see all fans anguish about Pod possibly being killed and totally being understanding of Brienne for betraying Jaime to save him. Though I would even rather have blackfish as their antagonist because then we would have three different groups all with motives we could totally get behind but in conflict with each other.

[LightKo]

Why has Cersei summoned Littlefinger to KL? Is there any indication in the books of what this is about? 

[Hanahope]

Agreed that ShowRamsay has been altered from BookRamsay and I'm not certain at all that he's worse than Joffrey.  I still think there's some sort of "saving of Sansa" coming, but I also think it may come due to Myranda's actions, at least as a catalyst.

 

Why did the B&W House scenes have to be so darn dark?  I could barely see a thing.  I've always thought that Arya hiding a Needle was symbolism for her hiding her "Starkness" and at the right time, it will come out again.

 

I like the Margery v. Cersei scenes,  Margery certainly thinks she holds all the cards.  We know Cersei has a trick of her sleeve still with Qyburn, but she'll have the High Sparrow to contend with.  It is curious as to what she will accuse Margery off, since virginity is off the table.

 

Jon totally channeled Ned in the beheading scene.  Unfortunately, he takes that channeling too far later on, as Stannis predicts.

 

I'm curious to see if we'll ever get the "third king's death" predicted by Melisandre.  Will it finally be Balon or are they going to claim it was Mance?  Will we ever see the Ironborn again?

 

Why was the Red Priestess looking at Tyrion?  It didn't seem to me that she said anything that suggested he was involved with their savior/Dany, or did she hear him say "going to meet the savior".  His voice wasn't that loud.

[Holmbo]

Why was the Red Priestess looking at Tyrion? It didn't seem to me that she said anything that suggested he was involved with their savior/Dany, or did she hear him say "going to meet the savior". His voice wasn't that loud.

Maybe she sensed some blood of the dragon? Do do do ;)

[Maximum Taco]

If the Faceless Men are as good as they supposedly are then shouldn't they know that Arya has only hidden Needle? Wouldn't somebody have likely followed her? Surely she isn't the first novice to try to get away with hiding some personal item. 

 

If the Faceless men are like they are in the books they won't need to have followed her because they can tell when she's lying.

 

Arya has tells.

[The Mormegil]

Why was the Red Priestess looking at Tyrion?  It didn't seem to me that she said anything that suggested he was involved with their savior/Dany, or did she hear him say "going to meet the savior".  His voice wasn't that loud.

 

She's seen Tyrion in a vision most likely.

 

Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all.- Moqorro to Tyrion

[ulkis]

I hope not. When the entire things ends, I would like the remaining Stark children to retake Winterfell and their revenge to be so brutal that it is at least 6 generations before anyone thinks about messing with them. I prefer the Starks to Dany.

 

This specifically is why I'm not too bothered by changes from the books from now on. If changes get me some Stark siblings reunions faster, then give me those darn changes.

[Hanahope]

If the Faceless men are like they are in the books they won't need to have followed her because they can tell when she's lying.

 

Arya has tells.

 

I have to admit, the books are so damn huge I can easily miss some words (like the Moqorro quote - thanks, I'll have to look up where that was so I can remember how they met up).  Is there some passage in the books that demonstrates that the Faceless men know Arya is lying in some way or that they know she hid Needle rather than discarding him? - She should have hidden the silver with Needle.

[proserpina65]

I truly felt for Cersei during her walk of shame.  I'm hoping the show allows her more fight.  She just collapses in the book.  I want her to be tougher and braver.  A broken Cersei is no fun to hate.

 

I never felt the least bit sorry for Cersei.  She brought it all on herself.  I hope she's totally crushed by the experience, since I don't find hating her to be fun.

[Featherhat]

We know Cersei has a trick of her sleeve still with Qyburn, but she'll have the High Sparrow to contend with.  It is curious as to what she will accuse Margery off, since virginity is off the table.

 

Maybe generalised debauchery/infidelity Anne Boleyn style. Possibly also using Loras's increasing indiscretion against her, given her warning to him in Ep1. I doubt she'd be fool enough to go for incest charges under the circumstances but you never know.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Featherhat

[Hecate7]

Probably infidelity. Possibly incest, since there's a growing resemblance between Ser Loras and George Boleyn.

[Maximum Taco]

I have to admit, the books are so damn huge I can easily miss some words (like the Moqorro quote - thanks, I'll have to look up where that was so I can remember how they met up).  Is there some passage in the books that demonstrates that the Faceless men know Arya is lying in some way or that they know she hid Needle rather than discarding him? - She should have hidden the silver with Needle.

 

There are a couple that show they are very good at reading her.

 

'One day the kindly man came on her unexpectedly and asked what she was doing. She told him she had gotten lost

 

"You lie. Worse, you lie poorly. Who are you?"

"No one"

"Another lie." He sighed. '

"You lie." he said, "but you may keep your secrets if you wish Arya of House Stark,"

 

"You'll be safe here" she told Needle. "No one will know where you are but me." She pushed the sword and sheath behind the step, then shoved the stone back into place, so it looked like all the other stones. As she climbed back to the temple, she counted the steps, so she would know where to find the sword again. One day she might have need of it. "One day" she whispered to herself.

 

She never told the kindly man what she had done, yet he knew.

 

"And who are you child?"

 

"No one."

 

"A lie."

 

"How do you know? Is it magic?"

 

"A man does not need to be a wizard to know truth from falsehood, not if he has eyes. You need only learn to read a face. Look at the eyes. The mouth. The muscles here, at the corner of the jaw, and here, where the neck joins the shoulders." He touched her lightly with two fingers. "Some liars blink. Some stare. Some look away. Some lick their lips. Many cover their mouths just before they tell a lie, as if to hide their deceit. Other signs may be more subtle, but they are always there. A false smile and a true one may look alike, but they are as different as dusk from dawn. Can you tell dusk from dawn?"

Edited April 28, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Knuckles]

I rewatched the episode last night and I was struck by the High Sparrow's genial humility act: one that Cersei seemed to buy on sight.  The Sparrow is the head of a new movement, with plenty of followers who have arrived in King's Landing, and Cersei thinks she has his measure, because it suits her to believe that. And yet, her own cousin and former lover  Lancel has made a point of telling her that he has made a full confession of his sins...including their adultery and his part in the regicide of Robert at her behest, and she brushes him off. The High Sparrow has the goods on her, and can have her arrested and tried as he chooses. If he knows about the regicide and the adultery, it's a sure bet he knows about the incest as well, as well as Tommen's bastard-birth. 

Cersei is truly not a player...she dismisses Lancel's confession, because she thinks he's a lightweight. She can't put 2 and 2 together and figure the top Sparrow has enough ammo to have her executed. As for Tommen, what's his kingship worth, as a product of incest, or for that matter,  Margaery's crown as well?

[funkopop]

 

- Not sure how I feel about Tyrion's failure to engage the service of the girl in the brothel. Was it simple ED from too much drinking? Was it guilt about what he had done to Shae? (She was wearing a dress similar to the one Shae often wore) Was it something else? I'm not sure. But I know there has been speculation (and some dread) about the showrunners white-washing Tyrion's more distasteful personality traits during his downward spiral, and now I'm worried about this too. I love Tyrion, but I want him to be nuanced and flawed, and kind of an ass.

 

I may be projecting this memory but didn't a moment pass between Tyrion and Shae where she reaches out to hold his hand and Tyrion is taken aback by the sincerity/loving nature of that move.  I thought Tyrion in the brothel scene was remembering that moment when the prostitue held his hand and therefore no longer desired her due to guilt.

[Avaleigh]

I rewatched the episode last night and I was struck by the High Sparrow's genial humility act: one that Cersei seemed to buy on sight.  The Sparrow is the head of a new movement, with plenty of followers who have arrived in King's Landing, and Cersei thinks she has his measure, because it suits her to believe that. And yet, her own cousin and former lover  Lancel has made a point of telling her that he has made a full confession of his sins...including their adultery and his part in the regicide of Robert at her behest, and she brushes him off. The High Sparrow has the goods on her, and can have her arrested and tried as he chooses. If he knows about the regicide and the adultery, it's a sure bet he knows about the incest as well, as well as Tommen's bastard-birth. 

Cersei is truly not a player...she dismisses Lancel's confession, because she thinks he's a lightweight. She can't put 2 and 2 together and figure the top Sparrow has enough ammo to have her executed. As for Tommen, what's his kingship worth, as a product of incest, or for that matter,  Margaery's crown as well?

At the same time she still knew better than to act like she knew what he was talking about when he talked about their affair. She wasn't so arrogant that she confirmed it for anyone who might be listening. I thought for a moment that she might acknowledge it and that would be part of her getting caught up further down the road. 

[dargosmydaddy]

 

Also I was never a fan of LS but now after this scene with Brienne and Pod I really want her to be in just to see all fans anguish about Pod possibly being killed and totally being understanding of Brienne for betraying Jaime to save him.

I have to say Brienne/ Pod was one of my few bright spots in the latter books, so I hope they do something with this on the show. I enjoy the Brienne/ Jaime relationship, too, so seeing her loyalties be tested would be nice. And I thought the conversation she had with Pod in this episode kind of pointed to her having to or failing to save him at some point soon. Really hope nothing happens to him! I love book-Pod more with his "sir-m'lady"'s, but I am still quite fond of Daniel Portman's version.

[yellowfred]

So, I was a bit surprised, but I actually liked a lot of the changes they seem to be making from the book. 

 

I like the way they chose to introduce the High Sparrow.  Having a more amicable first meeting between him and Cersei makes it a lot more sensible that she'd think she could use him.  The way he was introduced in the books was more like a flashing sign saying "this is not a guy you screw with," and Cersei just kind of shrugged it off and tried anyway.  I do wish we'd gotten a better explanation for why she locked up the old High Septon.  I mean, I can imagine that she figured he wouldn't be very effective at his job after his walk of punishment, but throwing him in the Red Keep's dungeons was a pretty extreme move, even for her, especially if it's just so that she has a more pious and respectable pawn in her move against Margaery.

 

I'm still a little split on the decision to send Sansa to Winterfell, which is surprising, since I was completely against it when I first found out.  I think the main thing that will tip me one way or the other will be if they give her Jeyne's whole storyline.  Like, I actually got chills when she got to be the first of the Starks to successfully return to Winterfell since the series started.  Also, I think she, more than any of her siblings, will benefit from seeing the good will that her family has accrued in the North, to keep her from going too far to the other side (my hope for her has always been that she'd find the middle ground between Littlefinger's pragmatism and Ned Stark's honor).  Plus, I think one of the major missteps of the books was having all the Starks (except for Jon, I guess) so completely sidelined in the main plots of the past two books, so putting Sansa a bit more in the action could be a good thing.  At the same time, if this ends up with her in anything all that similar to Jeyne's book plot, I'll go back to being completely against it.

 

On a side note, for me, even with the slight changes, Janos Slynt's execution was still just as satisfying as in the books.

Edited April 29, 2015 by yellowfred

[Arnella]

When Ramsey promised not to hurt Sansa, was that for us?  Even those without book knowledge know what he is.  I loved "The North Remembers" bit - also reassurance so we don't bail in disgust at what awaits Sansa? 

 

This was the first episode where I wasn't bored instantly at the sight of Jon Snow. Thank goodness Igrette is GONE.  Good job on the execution Jon.

 

Still horribly bored with Stannis. His daughter and the Onion Knight are the only things that keep me from surfing when he's present.

 

I know that Margery is flush from finally being queen and she's still smarter than the average courtier but that scene with Cersei was like poking a bear.  Be careful!

 

When Winterfell and the Aeryie joined, they took down the Targareans (sp).  I'm not sure having Little Finger as a ally is a good thing but it did occur to me that if Sansa can take control of Winterfell and Jon has the Night Watch and Bran is a Seer and who knows what Arya will do with her soon-to-gain knowledge, they can become the most powerful family without taking the Iron Throne. With Dany and Tyrion on the throne as allies?  Is that end game?

[Maximum Taco]

When Winterfell and the Aeryie joined, they took down the Targareans (sp).  I'm not sure having Little Finger as a ally is a good thing but it did occur to me that if Sansa can take control of Winterfell and Jon has the Night Watch and Bran is a Seer and who knows what Arya will do with her soon-to-gain knowledge, they can become the most powerful family without taking the Iron Throne. With Dany and Tyrion on the throne as allies?  Is that end game?

 

Dany may have accepted that her dad wasn't the bees knees, but I'm not sure how eager she is to get into bed with one of the two main families who brought him and his entire family down. We may love the Starks, but Dany doesn't. Also I'm not sure how eager Tyrion is to forgive Sansa either. She did run off and leave him to his fate after Joff died.

 

Also just speaking from GRRM knowledge, I doubt he'll end things so neat and nice, with the Starks triumphing over their enemies and Dany on the Iron Throne with Tyrion as hand. It's a little too fairytale from someone who is more a student of history.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[ulkis]

Also just speaking from GRRM knowledge, I doubt he'll end things so neat and nice, with the Starks triumphing over their enemies and Dany on the Iron Throne with Tyrion as hand. It's a little too fairytale from someone who is more a student of history.

 

At this point I doubt he will ever end things at all unfortunately, heh. I wonder if he'll just throw his hands up and add in an epilogue or something: "and snow fell everywhere and Podrick took over. The end!"

[Calamity Jane]

At this point I doubt he will ever end things at all unfortunately, heh. I wonder if he'll just throw his hands up and add in an epilogue or something: "and snow fell everywhere and Podrick took over. The end!"

I think the show creators think the same thing, and that's why they just took over and said, we're doing our version, keeping to the original story lines the author (supposedly) laid out.  I seriously doubt Martin will live to finish the books, but even if he does, at this point, I find the TV version better.  I almost never prefer a TV/cinema version over the book, but in this case (Hunger Games, too, have to say), I think the show is much more entertaining.  

[nksarmi]

Dany may have accepted that her dad wasn't the bees knees, but I'm not sure how eager she is to get into bed with one of the two main families who brought him and his entire family down. We may love the Starks, but Dany doesn't. Also I'm not sure how eager Tyrion is to forgive Sansa either. She did run off and leave him to his fate after Joff died.

 

Also just speaking from GRRM knowledge, I doubt he'll end things so neat and nice, with the Starks triumphing over their enemies and Dany on the Iron Throne with Tyrion as hand. It's a little too fairytale from someone who is more a student of history.

Oh if only though!  How I would love for the Starks to triumph over all these people and for Dany to sit the Iron Throne with Tyrion as her hand.  But alas, you are right, we won't get to that without some more sacrifice.  That doesn't mean some Stark won't rule the North when all is said and done, I just can't realistically believe that all remaining Starks will make it to the end. 

 

At any rate, I've long wondered if Ayra wouldn't be the first Stark that Dany encountered and that because of her, Dany would forgive the Starks and embrace the wolves for all they can offer her.  After all, from what we have seen, the Stark children are the only other people in the kingdom as closely associated with magic as she is with the dragons.  They haven't shown Ayra's warging abilities or really highlighted Jon's on the show, but I am hoping they will because I have to believe its going to be a warg who ultimately helps Dany connect with the dragons.  And I also have to believe the ultimate battle will take place at the Wall.

 

I wonder if at the end of it all with the Wildling influence on Jon and his potential influence on Dany and her talking about "breaking the wheel" and her stand against slavery that the end result won't be Jon telling her that she should rule without asking people to bend the knee and she will form some sort of "congress" that allows the people to achieve equality with the high lords.  All of this talk of being a queen vs politician and the stuff going on in Meeryn makes me think that when Dany takes power it won't be the traditional power her people once held but something different.

[Hecate7]

 

she'll have to choose between becoming the next Myranda or becoming the next Tansy -- I'm not sure there's a risk that she'll be the show version of Jeyne Poole

 

She's too valuable to become the next Tansy. She's walked into Joffrey squared. 

[Elkins]

I'm interested to see what happens with the Sansa storyline in a way I haven't been for awhile.

Me too. I find it particularly interesting how the show is twisting around some of the thematic material of the later books. Instead of all of the Stark children being encouraged to abandon their identities as Starks (Sansa becoming Alayne, Arya becoming No One, and Bran becoming, um, a tree), they're setting up a contrast between Sansa and Arya, with Arya following her book trajectory while Sansa is instead being encouraged to embrace her role as a Stark. I'm really excited to see how they intend to play with that over the course of this season.

I'm especially curious to see how Sansa in Winterfell, interacting with Reek, might ring the changes on that identity motif from the books. Are they going to parallel Sansa embracing her Starkness with Theon reclaiming his identity? I can imagine that working really well, actually -- although like everyone else, I'm a bit anxious about their ability to pull this off without making any disastrous missteps.

It's much like my anxiety over the Walk of Shame, actually. In both cases, they could pull it off really well...or things could go so horribly, horribly wrong. I'm finding it rather anxiety-provoking.

 

And having Ramsay say "I won't hurt her" right after Littlefinger admits he knows nothing about Ramsay is blatant foreshadowing that he's going to hurt her.

 

Yeah, that wasn't a suspicious denial at all.

Littlefinger: Well, congratulations on your upcoming nuptials, young man.

Ramsay (a bit too quickly): I promise I'll never force her to fuck my dogs!

(beat)

Littlefinger: O-kaaaaaay...

 

 

By the way, I find the dragons so very dull.  I know they're expensive to create, but the show just doesn't really use them for much other two seasons ago when they took out a city for Dany.  Plus I still resent how little research Dany does about them.  She's got these great potential weapons and she never studies them.  Like EVER.  Drives me batty in the books and on the show.

I've always found the dragons pretty meh as well...or did right up until this month, anyway, when I've finally started to find them interesting. I like the way they're being used in this season as a kind of metaphor for Dany's troubled relationship to her own power. It's hardly subtle, but I'm finding it unexpectedly strong and moving anyway. I agree with you, though, that it's annoying how little effort she's put toward learning with them.

(Or even toward bonding with them, for that matter! I actually think that the show sells Dany as the "Mother of Dragons" a bit better than the books ever did, because at least we get a scene or two each season in which Clarke helps to sell her affection for the CGI beasties, whereas in the books, Dany's internal narration hardly ever touches upon them at all. Seriously, she hardly ever even seems even to think about them. They aren't even differentiated in personality, other than Drogon being the most aggressive of the three. It's quite weird. My beloved pet cat, who died two and a half years ago, still occupies my thoughts far more frequently than Daenerys's three living dragons -- whom she refers to as her "children" -- seem to do her own. And I didn't nurse my cat on my own breast milk.)

Edited April 29, 2015 by Elkins

[beowoof]

Okay Tommen's age is confusing me. He has to be younger than Joffrey, and since he is the youngest child (with Myrcella in the middle), I'm guessing he has to be 3-5 years younger than Joffrey. My impression of Joffrey when he died was that he was 16/17. He definitely didn't seem like an adult with his mom and grandpa bossing him around all the time. So that puts Tommen in the 11-14 age range. And since Marg was aged up to be in her early twenties, that whole scene gave off a super creepy statutory rape vibe to me.

I hate the Sansa/Ramsay storyline. I think it could be okay if they avoid the violence against Sansa but at this point in time, I just don't have faith in the writers anymore and I'm not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

My favorite part of the episode was the Brienne/Pod scenes. I was upset in the season premiere when Brienne was being really mean to Pod because I thought it was really out of character for her so I was so happy to see them have some positive interaction. I loved Brienne saying she would teach Pod to fight and opening up to him about her backstory. I loved her saying 'I know he liked men I'm not an idiot!' And I love that Pod really accepts and respects Brienne and is happy to be on the road with her. It warms my cold, cynical heart.

[Lady S.]

Okay Tommen's age is confusing me. He has to be younger than Joffrey, and since he is the youngest child (with Myrcella in the middle), I'm guessing he has to be 3-5 years younger than Joffrey. My impression of Joffrey when he died was that he was 16/17. He definitely didn't seem like an adult with his mom and grandpa bossing him around all the time. So that puts Tommen in the 11-14 age range. And since Marg was aged up to be in her early twenties, that whole scene gave off a super creepy statutory rape vibe to me.

In the Tommen thread, Dev F. found an interview where the actor says he's playing him as 12. If Dormer's Margaery is around 20, that's the same 8-year age difference as in the books, with a Tommen physically old enough to have sex. So yeah, statutory rape in our world, the equivalent of Tyrion/Sansa or Dany/Drogo in ASoIaF's world. (I think Joffers was maybe newly 18 when he died, since he turned 17 in s2 and non-Tommen kids age slowly on this show.)

[beowoof]

In the Tommen thread, Dev F. found an interview where the actor says he's playing him as 12. If Dormer's Margaery is around 20, that's the same 8-year age difference as in the books, with a Tommen physically old enough to have sex. So yeah, statutory rape in our world, the equivalent of Tyrion/Sansa or Dany/Drogo in ASoIaF's world. (I think Joffers was maybe newly 18 when he died, since he turned 17 in s2 and non-Tommen kids age slowly on this show.)

Thank you for the clarification. It is hard to know just by judging the actor because he's obviously older. But yuck, I really don't like this change. I like Tommen/Marg in the books because it's like a kindergartener who has a crush on his teacher. It's harmless and adorable. They just play with kittens. Plus Marg is genuinely nice to him compared with Cersei who berates him for being sick at Tywin's funeral and generally wants him to be more like Joffrey. But making them have sex just adds this completely unnecessary creepiness to the whole thing. Plus like you said Tommen seems to be aging twice as fast as all the other kids on the show which is such a stupid mistake.

[Holmbo]

The show plays fast and lose with time but based on some defenites that has been given I'd say that 12 would be as correct age for Tomen as possible.

In the second episode of season 1 Tyrion says that Cersei married when she was 19. We know that was after the rebellion which happened 17 years ago which means she can't be older than max 36 in the first season. Then in season 4 it's pointed out several times that Jaime is 40 which means at least 4 years would have passed.

Loras says in season 1 that Tommen is 8 so he should be at least 12 by now.

I'm sure there are lots of events which contradicts this time line. In the book there only been a little more than 2 years at this point I think.

[DigitalCount]

Thing is, Tommen would totally be expected to have sex with Margaery by that age because he's capable and they need to lock down the throne. Lord Oaf needing to see his grandson as heir apparent would be reason enough to speed up the process from Highgarden's POV, so it makes sense despite being nasty to us.

Doesn't hurt that it's more likely to inspire jealousy than disgust too.

And if Joff was 17 at the beginning, he's at least had one birthday since, possibly two. I can't remember if Hearteater was a birthday gift, but I think Widow's Wail was. EDIT: actually that was for his wedding, but I think he spares Dontos on his birthday?

Edited April 30, 2015 by DigitalCount

[Maximum Taco]

Thing is, Tommen would totally be expected to have sex with Margaery by that age because he's capable and they need to lock down the throne. Lord Oaf needing to see his grandson as heir apparent would be reason enough to speed up the process from Highgarden's POV, so it makes sense despite being nasty to us.

 

It also makes sense from Margaery's manipulation point of view.

 

Playing with kittens and being really nice is a great way to bend an 8 year old king to your will. But a 12-13 year old would obviously respond more to Margaery's sexuality. Playing the PG13 version of "come into my castle" wasn't going to cut it as soon as Tommen went through his SORAS. It's creepy, but understandable. It's creepy in the same way a story about a teacher who seduces a 9th grader is creepy.

[hendersonrocks]

Not sure how I feel about Tyrion's failure to engage the service of the girl in the brothel. Was it simple ED from too much drinking? Was it guilt about what he had done to Shae? (She was wearing a dress similar to the one Shae often wore) Was it something else?

 

Yeah, I was wondering too. I actually thought initially that perhaps she was pregnant and that's what triggered it (it seemed like he was looking at her belly, which was notably conspicuous), but after thinking about it more I'd guess that your theory is right and it's meant to show viewers that Tyrion is a GOOD PERSON now.

[Dev F]

Yeah, I was wondering too. I actually thought initially that perhaps she was pregnant and that's what triggered it (it seemed like he was looking at her belly, which was notably conspicuous), but after thinking about it more I'd guess that your theory is right and it's meant to show viewers that Tyrion is a GOOD PERSON now.

 

But it's not like he was ever characterized as a bad person for liking to sleep with whores. So it seems like it's more a sign of how much his guilt is eating at him than an attempt at whitewashing or whatever.

[Constantinople]

Yeah, I was wondering too. I actually thought initially that perhaps she was pregnant and that's what triggered it (it seemed like he was looking at her belly, which was notably conspicuous), but after thinking about it more I'd guess that your theory is right and it's meant to show viewers that Tyrion is a GOOD PERSON now.

 

 

But it's not like he was ever characterized as a bad person for liking to sleep with whores. So it seems like it's more a sign of how much his guilt is eating at him than an attempt at whitewashing or whatever.

Talisa Maegyr: A man ran over. He had a fish tattoo on his face. In Volantis the slaves have tattoos so you know what they are without having to talk to them. And this man worked on a fishing boat. The Prince of Winterfell, Season 2 Episode 8

 

 

Tyrion: Slaves.

Varys: Yes. The Volantene masters are very organized. Flies for dung shovelers. Hammers for builders. Tears for whores. Lest they forget. High Sparrow, Season 5 Episode 3

 

The whores Tyrion slept with in Westeros were theoretically free.

 

This woman Tyrion spoke in the whorehouse in Volantis is likely a slave, though I don't recall if I saw tears tattooed on her

[Dev F]

The whores Tyrion slept with in Westeros were theoretically free.

 

This woman Tyrion spoke in the whorehouse in Volantis is likely a slave, though I don't recall if I saw tears tattooed on her

 

That's a good point, as she was tattooed, but I don't think the scene did anything to suggest that Tyrion was reluctant because the woman was a slave. Indeed, the emphasis seemed to be on the fact that she was losing a lot of business to the Dany impersonator and was grateful for Tyrion's interest, and thus disappointed when he couldn't seal the deal.