S03.E20: The Fallen

[Chaser]

The Felicity and Laurel bugged me for two reasons. 1) Personal: I need Diggle and Felicity. This season we keep seeing Felicity break around Laurel and Ray and I need to watch it happen with Diggle. 2) Story-wise: I was confused. I forget about the BTS shot of Laurel at the hanger and then with Laurel's dialouge, I spent the scene wondering if anyone even told her about Thea and what they were doing. They should have had Laurel waiting at Thea's loft for word. Bonus: show her in the middle of cleaning up the place. Show her at the hospital with the others in the beginning, she didn't even need to say anything. I get what they were trying to accomplish with the scene (telling Laurel, having Felicity break down), but they could have worked it into the episode better.

[apinknightmare]

The Felicity and Laurel bugged me for two reasons. 1) Personal: I need Diggle and Felicity. This season we keep seeing Felicity break around Laurel and Ray and I need to watch it happen with Diggle. 2) Story-wise: I was confused. I forget about the BTS shot of Laurel at the hanger and then with Laurel's dialouge, I spent the scene wondering if anyone even told her about Thea and what they were doing. They should have had Laurel waiting at Thea's loft for word. Bonus: show her in the middle of cleaning up the place. Show her at the hospital with the others in the beginning, she didn't even need to say anything. I get what they were trying to accomplish with the scene (telling Laurel, having Felicity break down), but they could have worked it into the episode better.

 

Honestly, the thing that bugs me about the Laurel/Felicity scene has absolutely nothing to do with Laurel. It's nice to see her comforting Felicity after Felicity comforted her a couple of times (I know this is a bone of contention here, so...just MHO). My problem is, WHY DID LAUREL NOT ALREADY KNOW? I mean, she seemed to genuinely not know a damn thing about what was going on. The show makes a point at having her forgive Thea immediately when Thea tells her that she killed Sara, and then Laurel goes to the loft to check up on her and makes a point of telling us that Laurel thinks of Thea like a sister (which I believe she absolutely does), but then she doesn't even get clued into the fact that Thea was on the brink of death and Oliver was going to join the League of Assassins in order to save her? And we know there was a hangar scene shot because we saw stills of it. 

 

I mean, I don't care that much because I really do not care about Laurel, but they devote screen time to her for stuff lately and then completely leave her out of the payoff. Like I wrote on the last page - it's just weird. 

[Carrie Ann]

I didn't have a problem with that scene, but I think it would have been better on a character/team level if it'd been implied more strongly that Laurel knew about the plan, and Felicity was coming to tell her in-person how things had gone down. And yeah, having Laurel in the hospital scene would have been a quick way to bring her into the picture too. Even if she didn't come to NP after that, I would have assumed they let her know what they were doing about Thea. But, it's a small gripe for me, and I'm willing to fanwank that she did know and Felicity was there to update her.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[SonofaBiscuit]

As much as they are saying the Olicity sex scene was super explicit....I think the sex scenes in Supernatural in s4 were way more graphic and sexual. This was beautiful and IMO reflected the love between Oliver and Felicity and I appreciated how it was done.

 

Yeah, I can't believe that people are saying that...I've seen more explicit stuff on the Vampire Diaries.  Like a few others, I didn't like the choppy editing of the love scene, and I would have liked more wonderment from Oliver when Felicity confessed that she loved him.  I wanted more "I can't believe this is happening" from Oliver since he has barely touched Felicity all season, and I would have liked if she had started undressing him, but whatever, I'm not the director!  I mean, it sounds like I hated the scene, and I swear that I really didn't.  But I've waited three seasons for this, and it could have been so much sexier, damn it!

[NumberCruncher]

Honestly, the thing that bugs me about the Laurel/Felicity scene has absolutely nothing to do with Laurel. It's nice to see her comforting Felicity after Felicity comforted her a couple of times (I know this is a bone of contention here, so...just MHO). My problem is, WHY DID LAUREL NOT ALREADY KNOW? I mean, she seemed to genuinely not know a damn thing about what was going on. The show makes a point at having her forgive Thea immediately when Thea tells her that she killed Sara, and then Laurel goes to the loft to check up on her and makes a point of telling us that Laurel thinks of Thea like a sister (which I believe she absolutely does), but then she doesn't even get clued into the fact that Thea was on the brink of death and Oliver was going to join the League of Assassins in order to save her? And we know there was a hangar scene shot because we saw stills of it. 

 

I mean, I don't care that much because I really do not care about Laurel, but they devote screen time to her for stuff lately and then completely leave her out of the payoff. Like I wrote on the last page - it's just weird. 

 

This is me exactly.  I couldn't care less that Felicity broke down in front of Laurel or even that Laurel was a part of the episode.  The scene was just very strange and disrupted the natural flow of events.  It also gave the impression that Laurel is still not in the loop with the rest of the team which is puzzling considering how much the showrunners have tried to include her this season.  They need to make up their minds--either integrate her into the story or don't.  What they shouldn't do is make her an afterthought like they did in this scene.

[lexicon]

This comment is strictly for science but I noticed something in my slow-mo rewatch of well, that scene (there was candle counting needed) and I was startled to realize that between the moment Oliver flips Felicity to her back and leans her against the pillows there apparently was a time jump because suddenly they are UNDER the red satin covers.  You only see glimpses of the coverlet but it is clearly over his back in the later shots and so unlike what I thought I saw (sexy times cutting to the fade after some very nice necking - very nice) they were MUCH further along with their interlude there at the end than I thought.

 

This concludes the science corner. 

 

I did not notice that, that certainly makes things a little more interesting. I will immediately rewatch the scene. For Science of course. 

[tarotx]

I definitely don't get the Laurel hate I know some people hate that Felicity and Laurel are friends now but it's been established and it was a short scene. Felicity's friends with everybody who tries to do good. And Laurel needed to be told about Oliver being gone again. And it was powerful that speaking it out loud tore Felicity to pieces.

As for the episode, it was choppy. On first view I was disappointed by the pacing and the going in and out of the flashbacks. I wish that we could have had this episode broken into two. Major things happened past&present and they deserved a bit more air to breath for impact. Also having an episode between the Al Shahim reveal and seeing Evil!Oliver in action would show the time leap instead of having to say it. I know Sweeps though...

Though I still loved everything. It just needed to be edited better. I get it that so much had to fit in this episode. But that just annoys me about some of the badish episodes earlier. Start this run to the end sooner! I do understand tv structure and sweeps but Arrow deserves better.

Melcolm isn't afraid of the SCPD and only the LOA so got everything he set out to achieve when brainwashing Thea to kill Sara. :x

I loved the acting from all the major players. They deserve a better paced show.

Felicity rocked this episide. She can be silent and let others talk except nudge them a bit. That's both a character plus and flaw. I think flaws and all this was a great episode for her Growth.

Edited April 23, 2015 by tarotx

[raytch]

-- I liked that, during Oliver and Felicity's good-bye kiss, the camera panned until the bright torch light in the background was centered exactly between their bodies (plus nice use of background music - the same music played during their sex scene).

 

Actually that's a CW signature for all romantic kisses on all their shows (at least the ones I've seen). I used to like it too then I realized that I've seen it many times on The Vampire Diaries, The Originals, The Flash AND Arrow.

[Primetimer]

The attack on Thea was the last straw, and Oliver takes his team to the headquarters of the League of Assassins.

Read the story

[ottoDbusdriver]

Anyone else find it odd that there is an airport capable of accommodating private jets within walking distance of Nanda Parbat ?  And that Ollie carried Thea all the way from that airport (or does the LoA have an airport shuttle that just wasn't shown ?).

[bethy]

I will join the chorus of those who loved this episode for all the reasons already mentioned. 

 

On the scene with Oliver being branded and having "Oliver" burned out of him (or left behind or however it was phrased), I took that as more of a symbolic gesture, rather than a literal burning of Oliver out of him. Of course, the CW feed was horrible and I could barely hear a lot of what was being said the whole hour because of the staticky background noise, so I may not have gotten all the nuances. But I just figured it was a (horrifyingly painful) ritual that symbolized leaving behind who you were and moving forward as a League member. 

[fantique]

This is me exactly.  I couldn't care less that Felicity broke down in front of Laurel or even that Laurel was a part of the episode.  The scene was just very strange and disrupted the natural flow of events.  It also gave the impression that Laurel is still not in the loop with the rest of the team which is puzzling considering how much the showrunners have tried to include her this season.  They need to make up their minds--either integrate her into the story or don't.  What they shouldn't do is make her an afterthought like they did in this scene.

I swear to god, someone is subconsciously sabotaging the Laurel character. She has been so much better this season but there are still so many faux pas that just feel too grave to be a small whoopsie. Even thinking back to this episode's sex scene compared to the Lauriver one in season 1, I exhaled a sigh of relief because they didn't use awkward music for the scene this time. Who the hell plays RADIOACTIVE for a sex scene with the show's canon endgame OTP???? Seriously...

 

I am also pissed that they didn't devote an entire season to her becoming the Canary, she had to share with the Boredom... Sorry I meant the ATOM. Her superhero mentor was vanished in the midst of the chaos and we haven't seen her interact with Nyssa lately which is the one saving grace now that she and Quentin are on rocky ground. How am I supposed to like a character that I don't even feel people behind the show like and yet they keep putting her up as a leading lady. It's like they both acknowledged that the character needed a lot of work at the beginning of the season but at the same time they're not willing to put in the effort. I'm just glad they stopped with the in-show Laurel bashing. It was making me angry and uncomfortable. They should have made it more explicit 

 

I definitely don't get the Laurel hate I know some people hate that Felicity and Laurel are friends now but it's been established and it was a short scene. Felicity's friends with everybody who tries to do good. And Laurel needed to be told about Oliver being gone again. And it was powerful that speaking it out loud tore Felicity to pieces.

As for the episode, it was choppy. On first view I was disappointed by the pacing and the going in and out of the flashbacks. I wish that we could have had this episode broken into two. Major things happened past&present and they deserved a bit more air to breath for impact. Also having an episode between the Al Shahim reveal and seeing Evil!Oliver in action would show the time leap instead of having to say it. I know Sweeps though...

Though I still loved everything. It just needed to be edited better. I get it that so much had to fit in this episode. But that just annoys me about some of the badish episodes earlier. Start this run to the end sooner! I do understand tv structure and sweeps but Arrow deserves better.

I agree that it almost felt like they had stuff for two episodes' worth then they realised the finale is approaching. It's sad that they wasted time and momentum at the beginning of the season because the build would've been way more interesting. They should've cut out all the red herrings for Sara's murder and had the dangling threat from Malcolm of using Thea's culpability after they showed up in Corto Maltese and then after the Climb, Ra's plans. The guilty episode should have been solely about Laurel and her growing bond with Wildcat and maybe the mentions of murders bring flashbacks to Roy. Oh well, at least I'm confident the ramping up to the finale will be fun.

[ottoDbusdriver]

On the scene with Oliver being branded and having "Oliver" burned out of him (or left behind or however it was phrased), I took that as more of a symbolic gesture, rather than a literal burning of Oliver out of him. Of course, the CW feed was horrible and I could barely hear a lot of what was being said the whole hour because of the staticky background noise, so I may not have gotten all the nuances. But I just figured it was a (horrifyingly painful) ritual that symbolized leaving behind who you were and moving forward as a League member.

 

I found it odd that the brand Ra's applied Olliver's back is basically the same design as the arrow symbol in the intro and exit of most episodes.  Was that always in the plans for this show ?

[Glory]

Is no one going to comment on the fact that David Ramsey just, you know, threw Stephen Amell over his fucking shoulder and then went for a jaunt around Nanda Parbat like it was a Sunday in the park? Dude is a BEAST. Why is he not kicking more ass? NEED MOAR DIGGLE. 

 

I loved when Merlyn stepped into a circle of assassins and cut them all down without losing a step. I feel like that's been missing from my life. More of that please. 

[Morrigan2575]

Is no one going to comment on the fact that David Ramsey just, you know, threw Stephen Amell over his fucking shoulder and then went for a jaunt around Nanda Parbat like it was a Sunday in the park? Dude is a BEAST. Why is he not kicking more ass? NEED MOAR DIGGLE. 

 

I loved when Merlyn stepped into a circle of assassins and cut them all down without losing a step. I feel like that's been missing from my life. More of that please. 

You know David and Diggle are such BAMF's it never even occurred to me to question the idea that Diggle could haul Oliver around on his shoulder.  I just took it as fact that of course Diggle could do that.

 

At this point, I think Dig could take The Mountain

[Glory]

You know David and Diggle are such BAMF's it never even occurred to me to question the idea that Diggle could haul Oliver around on his shoulder.  I just took it as fact that of course Diggle could do that.

 

At this point, I think Dig could take The Mountain

Right? You don't even think about it until he DOES IT. 

 

David Ramsey should play the Mountain! They recast that role everytime anyway. Why not? Someone on Twitter needs to make this a thing. 

[lexicon]

Is no one going to comment on the fact that David Ramsey just, you know, threw Stephen Amell over his fucking shoulder and then went for a jaunt around Nanda Parbat like it was a Sunday in the park? Dude is a BEAST. Why is he not kicking more ass? NEED MOAR DIGGLE. 

 

I loved when Merlyn stepped into a circle of assassins and cut them all down without losing a step. I feel like that's been missing from my life. More of that please. 

 

The way Diggle just picked up Oliver and carted him around was freaking awesome. At one point I legit wondered if it was some fake ass SA body stand-in because I couldn't believe the ease with which he cut a swathe through the league of assassins while carrying SA around. The men of Team Arrow are some marvelous physical specimens and I'd welcome the chance for them to demonstrate that physicality a bit more.

 

So Hear Hear... MOAR DIGGLE in the field please. 

[Carrie Ann]

I found it odd that the brand Ra's applied Olliver's back is basically the same design as the arrow symbol in the intro and exit of most episodes.  Was that always in the plans for this show ?

 

The brand is the same as the S3 Arrow graphic, yes, so they either knew at the beginning of the season that it would be Oliver's LOA brand, or along the way, they decided it would be cool to tie things together that way. I'd guess the latter, honestly.

[slayer2]

I thought that was kinda boring. As someone who was shipping Olicity on and off until 3.02 I dunno, that just didn't meet my expectations. I don't know if it was the choreography or what but it was just spark-less for me and especially after the declaration of love in the season 2 finale I just don't know what happened. Oh well at least I can enjoy the show ship free from now on, although that's not true I still ship Ollie/Huntress Ollie/Barry and Laurel/Felicity oh and where was my Nyssa??? Glad she'll be back next week.

I was so....bored this episode. I don't care about the flashbacks anymore (I fastforwarded through all of them so I know fuckall about what happened) and now that I get Karl Yune (who btw I just realized is Rick Yune's brother) in real time I have no need for flashbacks anymore. The only thing that interested me was Ra's, who I kept SCREAMING at the TV RAAAYSH RAAAYSH every time someone would mispronounce it, seriously it seems only Nyssa, Maseo and Ea's himself bother to pronounce it correctly. What's gonna happen when Ollie is the demon and he can't adequately pronounce his own name?

Felicity's drugging of Oliver which I thought was very sweet (in intention) and I liked that she took charge like that, it means something that she tried so I liked those scenes a lot. Malcolm also looked impressed when she told him what time it was and Felicity/Laurel's scene at the end. I love those two I'm so happy they're becoming close.

Edited April 23, 2015 by slayer2

[KenyaJ]

The Felicity and Laurel bugged me for two reasons. 1) Personal: I need Diggle and Felicity. This season we keep seeing Felicity break around Laurel and Ray and I need to watch it happen with Diggle. 2) Story-wise: I was confused. I forget about the BTS shot of Laurel at the hanger and then with Laurel's dialouge, I spent the scene wondering if anyone even told her about Thea and what they were doing. They should have had Laurel waiting at Thea's loft for word. Bonus: show her in the middle of cleaning up the place. Show her at the hospital with the others in the beginning, she didn't even need to say anything. I get what they were trying to accomplish with the scene (telling Laurel, having Felicity break down), but they could have worked it into the episode better.

 

This! There were so many better ways to incorporate Laurel into this episode. They way they chose to go about it just didn't work for me, on a variety of levels. I'm not sure why saying so equates to "bashing," but whatever. I'm just gonna take the "Laurel... jello" approach from here on out.

 

Also, so many kudos to SA. He just nailed everything last night. One of my absolute favorite moments was the end of his hug with Diggle. His shoulders totally slump, and you can see him trying to brace himself to say goodbye to Felicity. I think that moment choked me up even more than the actual goodbye.

Edited April 23, 2015 by KenyaJ

[nksarmi]

Honestly, the thing that bugs me about the Laurel/Felicity scene has absolutely nothing to do with Laurel. It's nice to see her comforting Felicity after Felicity comforted her a couple of times (I know this is a bone of contention here, so...just MHO). My problem is, WHY DID LAUREL NOT ALREADY KNOW? I mean, she seemed to genuinely not know a damn thing about what was going on. The show makes a point at having her forgive Thea immediately when Thea tells her that she killed Sara, and then Laurel goes to the loft to check up on her and makes a point of telling us that Laurel thinks of Thea like a sister (which I believe she absolutely does), but then she doesn't even get clued into the fact that Thea was on the brink of death and Oliver was going to join the League of Assassins in order to save her? And we know there was a hangar scene shot because we saw stills of it. 

 

I mean, I don't care that much because I really do not care about Laurel, but they devote screen time to her for stuff lately and then completely leave her out of the payoff. Like I wrote on the last page - it's just weird. 

I think they must have decided two things......1) Oliver still does not think to call Laurel when the shit hits the fan even when it comes to Thea (and I too think they have a genuine fondness of each other) and 2) it would be easier for fans to place Laurel on Flash if we assume she knew nothing about Roy or the events of this episode.

 

Since there is a time jump between this episode and the next one, we can assume they got her up to speed in that time frame.

 

I would like to see Laurel and Felicity taking care of Thea instead of just Malcolm.  I think both women would care about her - heck she was the whole reason Felicity insisted on going with Oliver.

 

Anyway, I liked the episode well enough but I am tired of the story.  I DO want to see more of good guys go out and fight bad guys and actually bring them to justice.  I feel like this season is going to end up being a big FAIL in that regards.   I get NO sense that we will see Malcolm pay for killing Sara and I think we can all be pretty sure that they are not going to bring down the LoA.  Heck, even in the flashbacks, the good guys failed.  So yea olicity sex wooo hooo,  Give me back a show that has heroes being heroes in season four please?  And take your insane baby talk somewhere else, thank you.

[icandigit]

I have to be honest. I tried to watch the episode because of all the great feedback here. I started watching the episode and SA was already crushing it. Malcolm showed up in Thea's hospital room and I was like 'aw hell naw'. And promptly stopped watching. I just can't. All of this is his fault.  It then reminded me of how stupid this storyline has been. Also, I have 'watching people die' fatigue with this show.

[Delphi]

I need to mention what a bad ass mother Thea is. She was just kicked through a table, stabbed through and left bleeding out with one assumes brain damage and she's still crawling to her phone while choking on her own blood. Could I get Malcolm to come train me for a few months.

Once again Felicity shows that when Oliver is down she is the head bitch in charge and I love her for that. She doesn't back down, she's just so epic. And dat hip action tho!

When Oliver fell back against the wall at the hospital I fell apart. He's clearly the MVP of the episode.

Every episode he gets better and when I first started watching this show I never expected him to come so far as an actor.

David Ramsey. David Fucking Ramsey lifted Stephen like he was a rag doll. That is mighty impressive.

I really want Tatsu in some present day scenes. She's all sorts of awesome. And clearly not as haunted as Maseo...clearly he's not exactly the best at dealing.

I get that people love John Barrowman. I do too. I love Torchwood and all that. But, no Malcolm. You will not take care of Thea. You won't go near Miss Thea Dearden Queen. This is all your damn fault. Take your crocodile tears and go water the graves of Tommy and Sara because I'm not buying what you're selling.

And maybe that Flash episode mellowed me out but I really wasn't bothered by Laurel or Ray and if the writing had been this good for them all season my opinion wouldn't be bad at all.

[dtissagirl]

I feel like the whole reason Ra's ousted Nyssa was so Malcolm could be in NP in this episode, without Nyssa decapitating him on sight. Nothing to do with Oliver, just making it sure Nyssa and Malcolm don't cross paths, because there is no logical reason for her NOT to kill him.

Edited April 23, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Ang]

I am so full of MEH for this episode, and this show, and UGH. I worked so hard to have low expectations, but I didn't do enough because it seems the one hope I held onto was that I wouldn't have to think the characters were idiots. So much for that. They made Team Arrow utterly pathetic and Felicity a pawn. Oh, yay, she yelled at R'as...with...empty threats...and then they use the moment to further destroy his mystique by pulling a Maleficent and making HIM the sympathetic character. He tells her what to do, and she does it. But then she slips Oliver a roofie! With no bloody plan. The whole escape attempt was a joke.

 

I'm thinking a big part of the problem was trying to cram so much into the episode that they had to cut the things that added depth. There were some effective moments, sure, but overall the one word that summed this up for me was SHALLOW. They really needed whatever lines they cut between Felicity saying I love you and Oliver taking off her glasses, and I'm wondering what they cut from the jet scene, because that was just not quite enough. I needed more emotional depth from Oliver. I needed more evidence of ability and strategy from him and from Team Arrow. Hell, I even needed Malcolm to be thinking more steps ahead of the game than he was. I just want to see someone being clever, and instead, everyone everywhere, including the flashbacks, was just reactive. 

 

I'm rambling. Maybe my frustrations boil down to the fact that this is a superhero show, right? And I love superheroes. This is making me reevaluate why, but I think I like superheroes because they're more. They're smarter, stronger, braver. They have more purpose, more nobility, more bravery, more tolerance for complexity, more willingness for self-sacrifice combined with a greater drive to survive. They defeat things that in real life are terrifying and insurmountable: sociopaths and career criminals and secret organizations, but with superheroes we get to see the scales tipped. The good guys can out think, out maneuver, and overcome the most powerful and ruthless of villains, and it's amazing because it's so much more than we, in our quiet little lives, are capable of, and yet it gives us hope and inspires us to try in the face of odds stacked against us. My heroes, the ones I love watching/reading/thinking about, are noble, brave, clever, altruistic, and ultimately fairly successful. If they make a sacrifice, it's for a reason and it accomplishes a purpose for the greater good.

 

I'm OK not getting all of that from Arrow. It's an origination story, so I'm ok with setbacks, difficulties, and character flaws. I expect to see the gradual, uneven development of ability, character, and ideals. But I'm not seeing that! I'm seeing characters who make the same mistakes over and over again, who don't plan ahead more than a day and a half, who can't strategize worth beans, and who rely on beating people up as their solution to just about every problem *coughBlackCanarycough*. It's a tv show, so I know things are going to work out largely in our heroes' favor over the next month, but at this point it will be luck more than ability that gets them out of the mess yet again. We got a hint of strategy and creative thinking at the very end of season 2, and I guess I was hoping to see that expanded to become something intentional rather than chanced upon.

[slayer2]

This is why I feel shipping ruins everything. How one finds occasion to be upset about the 50seconds or less that Laurel was on the screen with Felicity in the episode truly boggles my mind to each her own I suppose. But when IMO fanservicing got the Olicity ship together to begin with and with that the sex scene in this ep which was longer than the entirety of Laurel Lance's screentime. As a Laurel fan I'm not complaining, I'm happy to have the scene that I got so why then can the focus for Olicity shippers not be on the massive thing that happened yesterday for the ship instead of once again bashing Laurel?

Breakdown: First,someone had to tell Laurel about what happened with Oliver and Thea.

Second,Diggle as much as some like him (I kind of cooled on him when he called for Roy and Thea's head) and as close as he is with Felicity he has a family. He has a baby girl and a wife and other responsibilities besides hanging out in the Arrow Cave comforting Felicity.

Third, whether people like it or not Felicity and Laurel are friends. This is a fact, it has been established, it's canon.

Fourth, if you ship Olicity TPTB just made it very clear that Lauriver is dead by virtue of the fact that Laurel didn't burst into tears with Felicity, she simply comforted her and that was her first thought. Laurel was in the scene for exposition, to let the character in on what was happening and to prop the Olicity relationship. It's nothing but win here for an Olicity shipper. Lauriver is dead. Smile people.

Edited April 23, 2015 by slayer2

[NumberCruncher]

I have to be honest. I tried to watch the episode because of all the great feedback here. I started watching the episode and SA was already crushing it. Malcolm showed up in Thea's hospital room and I was like 'aw hell naw'. And promptly stopped watching. I just can't. All of this is his fault. It then reminded me of how stupid this storyline has been. Also, I have 'watching people die' fatigue with this show.

That's one thing I'll never forgive MG & Co. for--twisting the entire season in order to insert Malcolm into everything. I love JB as much as the next person, but this whole Malcolm/Thea/Ra's/LOA arc has been a convoluted mess. I also hated that they're now soliciting our sympathies on Malcolm's behalf as the grieving father...to the daughter he manipulated into killing Sara. Sorry, but after using Thea like that and stripping her of her agency and being indirectly responsible for her brother sacrificing his life to save her, Malcolm doesn't get that right. I disliked that they went there in the hospital because just no.

[nksarmi]

Ang - yes, yes, and more yes.  I am in full on annoyed mode with this show.  It's like they threw olicity sex at us to make people skip over the fact that Malcolm just won!

 

Malcolm's entire plan that started with drugging Thea to kill Sara has just played out perfectly.  He won.  His blood debt is paid.  Oliver is out of his way.  He apparently has sole access to Thea to help her through this transition.  It all bloody well worked out.

 

Will we see him get his due?  Will Sara be avenged?  I see nothing that indicates to me that these people even remember that he did the crime, let alone something that makes me believe he will do the time.  Ugh!

 

Where are the heroes on this damn show?

[Delphi]

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure the line about the Pit in rare cases reversing death was not about tonight but will come into play within the next few weeks.

[apinknightmare]

This is why I feel shipping ruins everything. How one finds occasion to be upset about the 50seconds or less that Laurel was on the screen with Felicity in the episode truly boggles the mind. 

 

You realize that wasn't a shipping issue for most people though, right? It had more to do with how the Team Arrow dynamic has suffered this season, and I don't think the show made it clear enough for some people to realize that Felicity wasn't going to Laurel for comfort, she was going to Laurel to let Laurel know what happened. The confusion probably sets in because it's ludicrous to think that all of this went down and Laurel didn't seem to know about any of it. I think if it had been a bit more clear that Felicity was going to Laurel to deliver information and then broke down while delivering that information, there would be a lot less "why didn't she go to Diggle" comments. 

 

Not saying that shipping doesn't make some things super ugly, because it does. I just don't think this is one of those things.

[Morrigan2575]

I got really annoyed during that final They/MM scene.  MM was all ecstatic that he was free of his blood dept and acting like it was this wonderful thing that he could go anywhere in the world but chose to stay with Thea.  WTF?!  Dude, you're self-centered interests got your daughter killed!  Yeah they brought her back to life but at what cost to her "soul"?  Not to mention that it caused Sara's death and Oliver had to sell his own soul to save Thea. 

 

I've never been a MM fan and I still think JB is too campy in the role but, I get the feeling that the writers want us to think MM is a good guy and I just can't.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[NumberCruncher]

This is why I feel shipping ruins everything. How one finds occasion to be upset about the 50seconds or less that Laurel was on the screen with Felicity in the episode truly boggles the mind. Particularly when IMO fabservicing got the Olicity ship together to begin with and with that the sec scene in this wp which was longer than the entirety of Laurel Lance's screentime. As a Laurel fan I'm not complaining, I'm happy to have the scene that I got so why then can the focus for Olicity shippers not be on the massive thing that happened yesterday for the ship instead of once again bashing Laurel.

I think you're missing the point completely. For a lot of people it's not that Laurel was in the episode--it was the fact that Laurel was misused and as such, the scene felt completely out-of-place. She should have been a part of the plot, not awkwardly inserted at the last minute in what came off as the show reminding us that "Oh yeah! Laurel exists". And before I get dismissed as yet another shipper hater, I hated the same thing happening with Felicity showing up for 30 seconds after she visited Central City the first time on The Flash. Unnecessary scenes are unnecessary.

[slayer2]

You realize that wasn't a shipping issue for most people though, right? It had more to do with how the Team Arrow dynamic has suffered this season, and I don't think the show made it clear enough for some people to realize that Felicity wasn't going to Laurel for comfort, she was going to Laurel to let Laurel know what happened. The confusion probably sets in because it's ludicrous to think that all of this went down and Laurel didn't seem to know about any of it. I think if it had been a bit more clear that Felicity was going to Laurel to deliver information and then broke down while delivering that information, there would be a lot less "why didn't she go to Diggle" comments.

Not saying that shipping doesn't make some things super ugly, because it does. I just don't think this is one of those things.

I think Felicity was kind of going for both. She went to a woman who used to love him as the current woman who does. It was also a parallel to Felicity comforting Laurel when she felt defeated after get badly beaten by Abruzzi.

I hear you about the team dynamic but I thought that was addressed re: putting her in The Flash but I also feel like if Laurel had known and been involved people would have complained as well. The complaints I was seeing were pertaining to the fact that Laurel was shoehorned into the episode, which I don't in any way agree with or that it wasn't right that Laurel was 'strong' and Felicity was 'weak'. Honestly I don't think there's anything weak about breaking down and/or seeking comfort. I'm happy for the female bonding on the show. All the testosterone seems a bit too much at times and I agree with whomever said that they're sick of all the dying. It's turning into Vampire Diaries for god's sake.

Edited April 23, 2015 by slayer2

[Moo]

I think I must be the only person in the universe that doesn't see any sexual chemistry between SA and ER. Or rather, I don't see any physical sexual chemistry. At all. On the jet when they're sharing a look together - wowza, I see it then. But the second they kiss, it all just disappears and it looks like they're just two wet fish. I wish I could see it, because as characters they work together. I've noticed that while ER has chemistry with a lot of characters, every kiss she's shared onscreen looked very awkward, so maybe it's just her thing. I don't know. Either way, for that reason, the sex scene did not work for me. The goodbye scene worked... until they went all cold fish again. Ugh. I hate when things fall at the last hurdle.

[wonderwall]

I think I must be the only person in the universe that doesn't see any sexual chemistry between SA and ER. Or rather, I don't see any physical sexual chemistry. At all. On the jet when they're sharing a look together - wowza, I see it then. But the second they kiss, it all just disappears and it looks like they're just two wet fish. I wish I could see it, because as characters they work together. I've noticed that while ER has chemistry with a lot of characters, every kiss she's shared onscreen looked very awkward, so maybe it's just her thing. I don't know. Either way, for that reason, the sex scene did not work for me. The goodbye scene worked... until they went all cold fish again. Ugh. I hate when things fall at the last hurdle.

 

Aw that sucks! I understand this frame of mind. It's happened to me a lot with other shows. I liked their love scene, I thought they had a lot of chemistry there and while it wasn't 'hot', I thought it was really romantic and loving which is a real departure from the kind of sex Oliver usually has :p And the goodbye scene was just really poignant, but that kiss wasn't the thing that got me, it was the forehead touch afterwards. 

 

If it makes a difference, I think the show will do future love scenes sparingly (meaning I don't think they'll do it again for a long while)? 

 

I'm curious though, would you like to see the end up together? Or do you want them to stop the budding relationship because you don't see the sexual chemistry?

[kismet]

The Laurel/Felicity scene did not bother me. I appreciate females actually bonding on this show. It was thrown into the end like an afterthought, so that bothered me a bit. But realistically, there are only so many paid actors on the show, so you have to give an emotional scene to someone. Diggle & Felicity probably had their moment on the plane, so I don't really need to see it. Honestly, I wish if they spent more time actually building a relationship between LL/BC & FS over the past couple of episodes. It would be nice to see the 2 female leads actually sharing scenes, esp with everything both are going through or will be going through. It feels like she is still on the outside of TA, and not in realistic way. It feels like the writers don't know how to incorporate her in. Someone could have let LL know about what had happened to Thea, so she could see her in the hospital. LL & Thea have had a bond since before s1, she should have been told. Even Diggle sending her a text. While TA & MM were having their In the soul convo, LL could have been on her way to SCGH, even if we never saw it, it could have been mentioned. LL never left SC (cisco & Joe were in SC), so that excuse about making it more realistic that she was in CC is just not valid for the writers. Heck, Ray could have called her.

[olicityfan25]

Again with this fan servicing. I get it some people think it's like that. It can't be oh because SA and EBR actually have romantic on screen chemistry. Plus having the head of WB being a Felicity fan and wanting more of her. To some people who don't like that their comic pair isn't together on the show they have to boil it down to it being about serving the fans.

The fans respond to things that work on the show. That then makes the people who work on Arrow respond to what the fans want to see. The only fan servicing I see is how a certain character has everything in the comics already happen to her and the main character still isn't known as the Green Arrow. Because that makes total sense.

[Moo]

I'm curious though, would you like to see the end up together? Or do you want them to stop the budding relationship because you don't see the sexual chemistry?

Oh, they don't offend me or anything. Like I said, as characters together on paper I think they work very well, and they do have chemistry. I just find myself disappointed at how little physical chemistry I see them have.

[blixie]

The sex was hot. I LOVED Felicity drugging Oliver's dumbass, confronting Ra's and pwning Malcolm. And I thought the fight in the FB with the vial was one of the best fights all season. Oh and I liked the Felicity/Laurel scene, I thought it made a kind of sense that Felicity could let herself finally totally fall apart in front of someone she barely knows/cares that much about, and I thought it was really great of Laurel to be there for her, despite the awkward. But then I don't hate Laurel and KC like it's my job.

 

I wish I could say I loved this episode, but like the majority of this season Matt Nable's version of Ra's ruins it. I can not make myself give a single fuck about him, so that leaches literally every decision that TA makes because of him totally whatever to me. Really, you gonna do THAT because of him? They could recast Ann/Egg with Matt Nable. HIM? I just do not care, I do not believe he's threat, I do believe he's smart or intimidating or scary. He's not terrible actor he's just horribly miscast I can not even. Ever. 

 

Anyway, yeah, that sex scene though.

[slayer2]

I think I must be the only person in the universe that doesn't see any sexual chemistry between SA and ER. Or rather, I don't see any physical sexual chemistry. At all. On the jet when they're sharing a look together - wowza, I see it then. But the second they kiss, it all just disappears and it looks like they're just two wet fish. I wish I could see it, because as characters they work together. I've noticed that while ER has chemistry with a lot of characters, every kiss she's shared onscreen looked very awkward, so maybe it's just her thing. I don't know. Either way, for that reason, the sex scene did not work for me. The goodbye scene worked... until they went all cold fish again. Ugh. I hate when things fall at the last hurdle.

I'm with you! Season 1 and 2 all I saw was chemistry and now....nothing. I don't get what happened, it's like Who's the Boss syndrome. I feel like both of their characters just changed too much or something. Now I just find them boring. I think she's cuter with Ray.

[Guest]

Lol, fan servicing. My eyes just rolled so hard I think I pulled a muscle. 

[chaos is welcome]

Btw, have we discussed the fact that the ras ollie ghul mask pretty much covers all of his face that the arrow mask didn't? I thought that was an interesting costuming choice...like he will become the antithises of who he was on the road to becoming. I hope they close this out quickly.

[looptab]

Just to play devil's advocate again, I think many used the term "fanservice" in the manga and anime sense of the word, which mainly refers to gratuitous sexual content. I've read some complaining that the sex scene was gratuitous and too long.

[Tallis]

Wow. Sky1 in the UK are showing the ep now and they just cut the sex scene. Got as far as walking to the bed and jumped to the flashback. Generally they cut for violence but rarely for sex, even at 8pm. There's going to be a lot of unhappy UK fans tonight.

[slayer2]

Btw, have we discussed the fact that the ras ollie ghul mask pretty much covers all of his face that the arrow mask didn't? I thought that was an interesting costuming choice...like he will become the antithises of who he was on the road to becoming. I hope they close this out quickly.

He can't pronounce his own name and now he can't even see. Oh this is gonna going over like gangbusters!

[lemotomato]

Just to play devil's advocate again, I think many used the term "fanservice" in the manga and anime sense of the word, which mainly refers to gratuitous sexual content. I've read some complaining that the sex scene was gratuitous and too long.

In the Arrow fandom, at least, I see "fanservice" mostly being used as shorthand for "stuff I don't like about the show".

[looptab]

In the Arrow fandom, at least, I see "fanservice" mostly being used as shorthand for "stuff I don't like about the show".

Hahah that's true. I was referring to the reviewers who used the term, though. I should have specified:)

Edited April 23, 2015 by looptab

[kismet]

He can't pronounce his own name and now he can't even see. Oh this is gonna going over like gangbusters!

No one can pronounce anything this season! Even in this episode NP, Ras and most of the arabic names all got a different pronunciation from the same actors. Seriously, Im eager to see SA do some EvilOliver stuff, just for the pure enjoyment of watching his acting, but this NP/Ras arc/plot needs to end this season and hopefully never be repeated again with substitute villains.

[slayer2]

In the Arrow fandom, at least, I see "fanservice" mostly being used as shorthand for "stuff I don't like about the show".

I think Olicity getting it on was definitely for the fans and fanservicing as is the relationship, it's not good or bad it just is.

Many fans didn't like Laurel as Oliver's lead as they saw little to no chemistry so TPTB found another lead that fans liked. Simple. Frankly I've gone on record many times to say I see no Lauriver chemistry either (except between Arrow and Laurel in Season 1) but if fan service ultimately means giving fans stuff they want then yes of course Felicity is fanserivce.

I'm part of the FastFamily and our entire franchise is fan service so it's not necessarily a bad thing. It can be at times (Clana) but I don't get when it turned into such a dirty word (or words) frankly. Although honestly if I still shipped Olicity I'd be disappointed in this episode. I don't think the sex scene came anywhere near to the build up or the tenderness or even raunch that it could and should have had. It seemed as run of the mill as throwing Sara off the building. Just a thing that happened. Blerg!

Edited April 23, 2015 by slayer2

[tessaray]

I enjoyed the episode - with all the spoiling I felt safe enough watching live, so that was something.  About the only thing I can think of to add is that once again, I feel the loss of Moira even more.  What I would have given to have her acknowledge the force Felicity can be. Or to see her pain with her son selling his soul to save her daughter.  Instead we get MM, not a fair trade at all in my book.  (And I love the guy elsewhere.)