S02.E18: The Frenemy Of My Enemy

[ChelseaNH]

When Lincoln was dropped off, it gave Hydra another blip to follow which conveniently was in the office building.

 

Except we first saw Lincoln out on the street, spying on Skye and Cal.  Not sure if that was before or after they finally acquired some form of ice cream, but I believe it was right before a commercial break.

 

We have yet to learn how Gordon knows where to BAMF, or when.  Presumably some psychic element, since Skye was able to call him.

[justjoan]

Gonzalez and his crew appear to be more human centric. They don't so much hate super people as they don't trust them and think normals should be in charge.

 

I'm sure everyone in BullSHIELD doesn't hate metahumans. Bobbi still cares about Skye, at least, and Mac is... ambiguous, as usual (sigh), but he doesn't want Skye dead and I'm certain he would still care about Fitz if he developed powers. At the same time, though, Gonzales has repeatedly referred to Skye, a fellow SHIELD agent, as "it," and Calderon went after her with live ammo (it's not clear if his team- bar Bobbi- did too. I hope not). So for at least some of them, and unfortunately some of the ones in power, their issues with metahumans go beyond simple distrust.

[mccartygirl]

Does anyone else find Ward hot now that he isn't goodie-goodie?

[xqueenfrostine]

Does anyone else find Ward hot now that he isn't goodie-goodie?

 

He was always good looking, but I would agree that scruffy and a little crazy eyed is a really good look on Brett Dalton.

[Raja]

I'm sure everyone in BullSHIELD doesn't hate metahumans. Bobbi still cares about Skye, at least, and Mac is... ambiguous, as usual (sigh), but he doesn't want Skye dead and I'm certain he would still care about Fitz if he developed powers. At the same time, though, Gonzales has repeatedly referred to Skye, a fellow SHIELD agent, as "it," and Calderon went after her with live ammo (it's not clear if his team- bar Bobbi- did too. I hope not). So for at least some of them, and unfortunately some of the ones in power, their issues with metahumans go beyond simple distrust.

I said since the Winter Soldier something was seriously wrong with SHIELD's agent selection and assessment program. Besides straight out Nazis making up significant parts of their tactical forces even after that comes out you still have folks like Tomas  going out to assassinate a fellow agent.

[Texasmom1970]

Gah, Cal's just so awesome! So many nuances, such a joy to watch him simply because of McLachlan's acting. I just can't get enough of him, both when he's crazy and not. I have no problems buying Skye would be conflicted about him, because even after everything, he's still somehow likable.

 

But wow, he sure didn't waste time hooking up with Agent 33. It's weird.

I agree with your entire post. Kyle McLachlan is so brilliant. He mixes crazy and sentimental so you do feel for him even with all he has done. Such a great actor.

I also think it's weird Ward and Agent 33 are playing house already. Is he trying to forget about Skye with a rebound/replacement relationship. Don't get me wrong I do not want him with Skye. His behavior is odd, but then again when isn't it.

I don't care for Agent 33 especially since she put a knife against Fitz's throat, bitch has got to go!

[MisterGlass]

 

I love the term "Olmost SHIELD"

Haha, hadn't heard that one but I like it!

 

I think everyone's hit the high points.  It's the little bits and pieces that are so engaging, like Deathlok asking 33 about another face mask, or Cal putting on his coat to receive visitors.

 

And they have just nailed it with Cal.  Sincere, scary, quirky - let's have ice cream and I'll tell you what happened after your mother's dismemberment.  And they are trying not to over use him, which is critical. 

 

I'm waiting for all of these different story lines to really gel, but I believe they will, and I'm excited to see it.

[xqueenfrostine]

I also think it's weird Ward and Agent 33 are playing house already. Is he trying to forget about Skye with a rebound/replacement relationship. Don't get me wrong I do not want him with Skye. His behavior is odd, but then again when isn't it.

 

Well he doesn't have anything or anyone else left in his life does he?  Garrett's gone, his family is dead (thanks to him) and whatever "friends" he made before during his sleeper agent years all know he's a traitor.  Given his situation, I don't know that it's really strange for him to moving on with Kara the way he has so fast.  Intense, dysfunctional relationships are not uncommon after shared difficult/tragic experiences.

[Donny Ketchum]

Anyway, Ward and Kara still have their secrets, but the optimist in me hopes that it will all be sorted out and everyone lands on their feet. Like I said at another forum, I just want the band back together, and this was a wonderful step in that direction.

*Sighs*  Gonna have to say it again, and this time VERY slowly.  It.  Is.  Not.  Gonna.  Happen.  Even Ward doesn't want to be back with them, so that should say a lot.

[Emily Thrace]

That's right! I forgot about that scene! Wow, Ward really is an asshole. He casually asked Fitz how he was doing, knowing full well that Fitz is not the same person he used to be, all because of Ward

I might be alone here and I admit I have a soft spot for Ward, but I think part of him might have sincerely wanted to know how Fitz is doing. I think his delivery was a little tone deaf but there was no real way to say it without stirring things up. I do think Ward cares about Fitz on some level, like he said before he could have just shot FitzSimmons he dumped them in the ocean so they could have a fighting chance. I'm not saying that excuses what he did or that he not an asshole. I can just how in his mind he actually does care how Fitz is doing and its an interesting insight in to how his twisted mind works. Like Coulson said there is a glimmer of humanity in him its faint but it is there. I also loved the expression on his face when he found they were looking for Skye it was a solid bit of acting. Like his heart leapt at the thought but he also hated himself for it . That will be an interesting reunion.

[Jeezaloo]

I find it creepy to wipe a person's mind, and as others have noted, the project has not been successful, so I'm really not sure why Coulson would subject Ward to that

 

I'm guessing Phillip son of Coul will pretend-wipe Ward. He will see how long Ward lives that lie for everyone else, by being a "good guy" again. Ward gets to come back into the fold AND still be evil. He gets to live the life of an honest man, for as long as his nature will allow it. He gets a "mind wipe" cover story to keep everyone off his back while he re-evaluates his priorities.

Okay, so I have a question. Olmos doesn't trust Coulson because Coulson exhibited "symptoms" as a result of his alien interaction.

 

But, Mac was straight-up possessed by alien technology.

 

Olmos still trusts Mac but not Coulson? What's going on there? Selectively distrusting whoever's in the way of Olmos acquiring more power - that doesn't reflect well on Olmos, does it?

 

Why does Olmos still trust Mac but not Coulson, when both have been potentially compromised by the Kree?

[xqueenfrostine]

I might be alone here and I admit I have a soft spot for Ward, but I think part of him might have sincerely wanted to know how Fitz is doing. I think his delivery was a little tone deaf but there was no real way to say it without stirring things up. I do think Ward cares about Fitz on some level, like he said before he could have just shot FitzSimmons he dumped them in the ocean so they could have a fighting chance. I'm not saying that excuses what he did or that he not an asshole. I can just how in his mind he actually does care how Fitz is doing and its an interesting insight in to how his twisted mind works. Like Coulson said there is a glimmer of humanity in him its faint but it is there. I also loved the expression on his face when he found they were looking for Skye it was a solid bit of acting. Like his heart leapt at the thought but he also hated himself for it . That will be an interesting reunion.

 

I do believe Ward was being genuine in his interest in Fitz's condition and wasn't purposefully trying to taunt him, but I also think it was in poor taste of him to speak to Fitz at all.  Fitz made it very clear the last time they met how distressing he found Ward's presence so common courtesy demands that he wait for Fitz to make the first move to engage him, and that if that never happens, to respect Fitz's space and stay silent.  To do otherwise is selfish even if it is well-meaning.

 

 

Okay, so I have a question. Olmos doesn't trust Coulson because Coulson exhibited "symptoms" as a result of his alien interaction.

 

But, Mac was straight-up possessed by alien technology.

 

Olmos still trusts Mac but not Coulson? What's going on there? Selectively distrusting whoever's in the way of Olmos acquiring more power - that doesn't reflect well on Olmos, does it?

 

Why does Olmos still trust Mac but not Coulson, when both have been potentially compromised by the Kree?

 

I suspect Gonzalez's mistrust of Coulson has as much to do with his position of authority and his active interest in aliens and powered people as it does with the means of his resurrection.  Coulson was at the head of an autocratic organization,whereas Mac is just one seat on the board of at least a half dozen people.  That means he (theoretically) was in a position to do a lot more harm than Mac was if he did have some secret alien influence guiding his actions..  Mac's brush with alien influence was more pronounced too, which probably leads Gonzalez to believe that they'd be able to tell more easily if Mac were to go back under alien influence.  Coulson, on the other hand, was able to hide the way the alien serum was affecting him from everyone, which is something that would definitely be worrisome if you don't believe that the alien serum lost its power to influence Coulson once he stopped feeling compelled to carve the blueprint of that ancient Kree city.

 

That said I am surprised that Mac's possession hasn't come up.  I don't expect New SHIELD to treat his case the same way they do Coulson's or Skye's, but it's funny that it's not even a factor considering how paranoid Gonzalez is about these sorts of things.

[Rocket]

I can see Disney wanting all hard core fans of the movies around the world to get copy/Netflix equivalent Agents of Shield. Marvel and the comics are all into the tie in books way back when I collected they loved to put pieces of your favorite all over the place to get you to buy more and recent look at book store tells me that has not changed. 

 

I love the episode but most good points were covered. 

 

I figure Dethlock is fairly well protected from electric shocks as that is a weakness if not. But humans are even easier to take out with a well practiced shock to the heart not much power required. Actually Dethlock might have resisted the electronic take out except he already used up his circuit breakers fighting spark.

 

Skye as Quake would have a good power to take out Ultron or Iron Man seing how not knowing her power at all she took a gun totally apart but this is too early for her to be full powered Quake for the movie. But would not be totally surprised if she and Coulson show up briefly and she takes out some minion with her power. After all now that they have made her Quake who is an Avenger in the comics I'm sure they want to tease her existence after all you don't make her Quake without thinking of a possible Quake movie and at minimum her in a future Avenger movie. But there might not be the room in the script for the extra except maybe a DVD short. I would be thrilled. 

[APSimpson]

I might be alone here and I admit I have a soft spot for Ward, but I think part of him might have sincerely wanted to know how Fitz is doing.

 

That's how I took it, and there was no indication to think that Ward wasn't sincere. "So, Fitz... how've you been?" He smiled nicely (as opposed to smirking) when he said it, and he didn't have to say it. I believe Ward has good in him, and Coulson even alluded to that himself in this recent episode.

Edited April 23, 2015 by APSimpson

[kitlee625]

That's right! I forgot about that scene! Wow, Ward really is an asshole. He casually asked Fitz how he was doing, knowing full well that Fitz is not the same person he used to be, all because of Ward.

 

Not only that, but when Fitz did confront Ward, Ward shifted the blame onto Fitz. "I gave you a chance to escape. I figured you'd get out of it." Implying that his brain damage was a result of his and Simmons' own incompetence. Very manipulative.

Edited April 23, 2015 by kitlee625

[Chicago Redshirt]

I'm guessing Phillip son of Coul will pretend-wipe Ward. He will see how long Ward lives that lie for everyone else, by being a "good guy" again. Ward gets to come back into the fold AND still be evil. He gets to live the life of an honest man, for as long as his nature will allow it. He gets a "mind wipe" cover story to keep everyone off his back while he re-evaluates his priorities.

Okay, so I have a question. Olmos doesn't trust Coulson because Coulson exhibited "symptoms" as a result of his alien interaction.

 

But, Mac was straight-up possessed by alien technology.

 

Olmos still trusts Mac but not Coulson? What's going on there? Selectively distrusting whoever's in the way of Olmos acquiring more power - that doesn't reflect well on Olmos, does it?

 

Why does Olmos still trust Mac but not Coulson, when both have been potentially compromised by the Kree?

After Mac's possession, Mac has been back to his same old self as far as we know. If anything, he's been even more "I hate this alien BS" to the point where he couldn't help himself and got into an argument with Coulson when he should have remained low profile to maintain his cover.

 

That's a whole other level from what happened to Coulson, who was literally resurrected, distrusted by everyone in the know about his situation to the point where they literally had one of SHIELD's best agents spying on him, found himself obsessively drawing alien stuff, and when there are at least two people in Garrett and the rando guy who went crazy because they had similar stuff coursing through their veins.

[APSimpson]

I don't know, I've been thinking a lot about this, and I just don't think Coulson would be that stupid to allow Ward back with the team armed and along with them shooting people and such if Coulson didn't feel that Ward would be safe to be around.

Bakshi's action at the end of the episode has me pondering some things, though. Did Ward and Kara brainwash Bakshi and is Bakshi's move part of Ward and Kara's plan? But why not just shoot Coulson in the back when Ward had the chance? Why instead save Coulson and why would Kara aid Hunter when he got shot? And Coulson has got to know that Ward could be playing them again, why would he risk that chance a second time? I think it's because Coulson believes there is still good in Ward.

Now, if Bakshi is acting on his own, then it makes more sense to me, but I fear Ward could be playing Coulson with Bakshi's help, but again I just can't believe Coulson would be that foolish to allow the possibility of that so I'm going to hope that Bakshi is acting on his own here.

 

Some other thoughts:

 

Ward at the end says "and our only backup is Fitz. Your call, boss." How did the team get out of there? They set it up as something of a cliffhanger that maybe we'd get to see in the next episode, but then we see Bobbi and Mack and Coulson there at the end. So what happened with the rest of the team?

And is Coulson at the end there really Kara/Agent 33 in disguise?

[ottoDbusdriver]

I think it's because Coulson believes there is still good in Ward.

 

So, is Ward Coulson's father ? And Coulson hopes that he can bring Ward back from the Dark Side of the force. </snark>

[KirkB]

Nothing in this episode leads me to believe they are actually trying a redemption arc with Ward. What I think they're doing (obviously I could be wrong) is setting Ward up as, well, a frenemy, hence the title. He's probably going to stay a bad guy because he really likes being a bad guy, but one who is friendly, or at least civil, with Coulson's team. They certainly won't trust him anymore but it's sort of a devil you know situation.

[Chicago Redshirt]

And is Coulson at the end there really Kara/Agent 33 in disguise?

Don't think it's plausible for it to be Kara for a few reasons:

 

1. The size differential between Coulson and Kara would not be easily masked.

2. Kara can change her face/voice into other people's but she has to dress up as them. (for instance, in the episode where they kidnapped Bakshi, she had to physically change into the uniform that the small soldier had on.) She presumably didn't have time to get Coulson's suit.

3. In surrendering, Coulson acted with knowledge that Kara wouldn't have been privy to -- that REALD was looking to capture him. 

Edited April 23, 2015 by Chicago Redshirt

[sjohnson]

Coulson is living proof that TAHITI is flawed. Ward knows that. Coulson should know that Ward knows. Therefore, Coulson should know that Ward is lying. Ward should know that Coulson knows ....... 

I think you forgot the first part, about Coulson is lying.

 

Fitz already had his confrontation with Ward in the cell. If he wasn't going to act then, he wasn't now, and this is just Fitz emo, which is not particularly interesting. And I can't agree that Ward was being snotty. He's delusional, though many disagree that delusions are symptoms of mental illness (if they accept the very concept of mental illness at all.) 

 

As to Ward redemption? Just as possible for him as for Clint Barton and Natasha Romanoff I should think. Particularly since we actually have reason to think medication and therapy might do wonders in Ward's case, unlike them. Except of course the mindlessly cruel SHIELD/HYDRA never thinks of medical care for enemies, not even the prisoners. The notion that Ward is beyond redemption seems to come from a perspective in which only personal relationships matter and there are no such things as abstract moral principles, like the notion that the mentally ill are not morally culpable. If your producers really believe that thieves' honor is the only honor, it's hard to navigate moral issues in the story.

 

That inanity from Hunter about choices like dealing with Ward being part of the job is a good example. (And the sort of thing that makes me not care about SHIELD/HYDRA) In a genuine intelligence operation, spying and recruiting spies (turning them into traitors,) is inherently unsavory on a personal level. But in a covert ops outfit, which is what SHIELD/HYDRA is, the killing, the mayhem, the torment, the mutilations, the devastations, all of it is the job. There's nothing about reluctantly dirtying your hands with bad people, you are the bad people.

Edited April 23, 2015 by sjohnson

[FurryFury]

I can sorta understand the reasoning with Natasha (she's been brainwashed since childhood, as we've seen with BW program on AC, but so has Ward, although he was much older and it's a big question how much did Garret really change him, or if he had just nurtured something that Ward already had), but what exactly has Barton done that's as evil?

[ChelseaNH]

As to Ward redemption? Just as possible for him as for Clint Barton and Natasha Romanoff I should think.

 

In a general, philosophical sense, sure.  In terms of character development, while it's possible, it's not around the corner.  Redemption requires acknowledging that you've done wrong and striving to do better in the future.  Medication and therapy could do wonders for Ward, but only if he's willing to accept them.  Right now, he doesn't believe that he needs to be fixed.  Is it moral to force that opinion upon him?

[Sakura12]

For me redemption is more then just doing nice things now or everyone forgiving him because reasons. To get redemption Ward has to admit he did wrong and apologize to the people he hurt, then start to do nice things and everyone slowly lets him back in. 

[kitlee625]

In a general, philosophical sense, sure.  In terms of character development, while it's possible, it's not around the corner.  Redemption requires acknowledging that you've done wrong and striving to do better in the future.  Medication and therapy could do wonders for Ward, but only if he's willing to accept them.  Right now, he doesn't believe that he needs to be fixed.  Is it moral to force that opinion upon him?

 

Medication and therapy really rely upon the active participation of the patient to be effective. Ward doesn't think that there is anything wrong with what he does. He also told Coulson and Kara that he likes who he is and has no intention of changing. So yeah, I think that at the basic level he has to accept that he did bad things and needs to change. This is in direct contrast to characters like Mike Peterson, who is actively atoning for the actions he did while enslaved to Hydra, or Natasha who is also trying to make amends (wipe the red out of her ledger). Neither of them give excuses about why it's not really their fault / why they didn't really do anything wrong.

 

From a practical standpoint, I find it unlikely that Coulson is going to use the TAHITI protocol. Didn't the base and all records of it blow up? And it's not like SHIELD has a ton of resources at the moment, or that Coulson even has any power in SHIELD since he's pretty much on the run. So my impression was that it was a bluff.

Edited April 23, 2015 by kitlee625

[Donny Ketchum]

For me redemption is more than just doing nice things now or everyone forgiving him because reasons. To get redemption Ward has to admit he did wrong and apologize to the people he hurt, then start to do nice things and everyone slowly lets him back in. 

Exactly.  I would be okay with a Ward redemption if he did all of this.  As it is, @APSimpson, he doesn't deserve to come back and shouldn't come back until he does.  And again, he's pretty much said he doesn't want to come back, so . . . that's the way it's gonna be for the long haul, I think.

 

 

Bakshi's action at the end of the episode has me pondering some things, though. Did Ward and Kara brainwash Bakshi and is Bakshi's move part of Ward and Kara's plan?

I actually wouldn't be surprised.  My boyfriend and I actually talked about this and think that this is definitely part of a setup on their part.  As someone else suggested, they may be trying to take HYDRA for themselves, using Bakshi as their puppet.

 

If that's the case . . . kiss Ward returning to the team goodbye.  I do not see Coulson even entertaining the notion of it if that's what he and Kara are doing.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Donny Ketchum

[Chicago Redshirt]

From a practical standpoint, I find it unlikely that Coulson is going to use the TAHITI protocol. Didn't the base and all records of it blow up? And it's not like SHIELD has a ton of resources at the moment, or that Coulson even has any power in SHIELD since he's pretty much on the run. So my impression was that it was a bluff.

The base where the Kree and his resurrection juices blew up.

 

However, presumably the technology to mindwipe someone isn't unique to that base. 

[Kel Varnsen]

I don't care for Agent 33 especially since she put a knife against Fitz's throat, bitch has got to go!

 

I feel bad for her. Coulson is using every resource at his disposal to find Skye. But she was a SHIELD agent captured and brainwashed by HYDRA and no one gives a damn.

I was surprised that they had let Ward and Agent 33 have their weapons back when they were on the QuinnJet.

At one point Ward was flying the plane, while everyone else was in the back. What the hell Coulson?

[sinkwriter]

 

I feel bad for her. Coulson is using every resource at his disposal to find Skye. But she was a SHIELD agent captured and brainwashed by HYDRA and no one gives a damn.

 

I wonder if that brainwashing is reversible, or if it's permanent.

[MDKNIGHT]

Skye is like an unstable nuclear bomb. You can't just know it's out there ready to fall into enemy hands and let it happen. That being said I concede that Coulson is very focused on Skye fueled by personal feelings. He just isn't really wrong either because even if he didn't care about her on a personal level she is still an unstable nuclear bomb.

I want SOMEBODY to smack Ward. I'm routing for Simmons. Or heck since she's already shot him maybe Skye can vibrate him till HE gets brain damage.

I had serious doubts that Ward really has feelings for 33 in the last ep we saw them. This ep makes me buy it slightly but I still think he's playing her and he'll double tap her when we least expect it. It will probably have something to do with declaring his love for Skye (rolls eyes). Ooh this just led to another thought....

Cal is a guy who says he loves Sky yet seems almost autistic in not understanding how his crazy and homicidal tendencies push her away.

Ward is a guy who says he loves Sky yet seems almost autistic in not understanding how his crazy and homicidal tendencies push her away.

You know how they say guys want a woman that reminds them of their mom and that women are looking for a daddy? (Not everybody of course) Well maybe this is the writer's version of that.

[Donny Ketchum]

I wonder if that brainwashing is reversible, or if it's permanent.

Earlier this season, Coulson offered her a chance for them to help her, but she turned them down.  So I think it's reversible.  She just didn't want it at the time.

 

I had serious doubts that Ward really has feelings for 33 in the last ep we saw them. This ep makes me buy it slightly but I still think he's playing her and he'll double tap her when we least expect it.

I think his feelings are more like those of kinship.  He felt a bit lost without Garrett, but slowly found a way to start finding himself without him.  Kara felt just as lost after Coulson killed Whitehall, one of the reasons Ward took her under his wing since he saw himself, at that moment in time, in her.  And now, she's slowly finding her way without Whitehall.  Do I think there's anything romantic there?  If they're together long enough, there could be.  But for now, I do think Ward enjoys being with someone in whom he sees himself.  Two damaged people uniting is always a good combination, and I think both Ward and Kara see that, too.

[APSimpson]

Fitz already had his confrontation with Ward in the cell. If he wasn't going to act then, he wasn't now, and this is just Fitz emo, which is not particularly interesting. And I can't agree that Ward was being snotty.

 

As to Ward redemption? Just as possible for him as for Clint Barton and Natasha Romanoff I should think.

 

In a genuine intelligence operation, spying and recruiting spies (turning them into traitors,) is inherently unsavory on a personal level. But in a covert ops outfit, which is what SHIELD/HYDRA is, the killing, the mayhem, the torment, the mutilations, the devastations, all of it is the job. There's nothing about reluctantly dirtying your hands with bad people, you are the bad people.

 

I agree that Fitz needed to do that, whatever the reason: acting out, emoting, getting things off his chest and showing the group that he isn't going to let what happened just slide by. When he was with Ward in the cell, it was just the two of them, so maybe in front of the group Fitz might have felt that he had to show something. But I think he got it out of him, and although I don't think things will be warm and fuzzy between the two, the obligatory moment of rage is gone now and Fitz can maintain his pride.

 

Ward can compartmentalize. Just because he was on a mission doesn't mean he can't establish relationships with the people he was infiltrating. And not to belabor the point, but that's why I agree that Ward was genuine when he asked Fitz how he has been doing. It's a "weakness."

 

The idea that what Ward did is unforgivable is hard to argue against. But there is gray area. Like you said, this is the stuff of espionage. People kill people, everyone can potentially be bad. Not that killing the two guards at the Guest House is comparable to executing Hand and ambushing Koening, Coulson's team did dispatch those two guards who were only doing their jobs. Was Coulson bad for that? No. Is Ward bad for what he did? Sure, but it's complicated. Coulson understands that complexity. He knows that they are in the business of secrets. Everyone keeps them and everyone is a hypocrite to be upset that others have kept secrets from them. You want to know the truth? Earn it.

 

But what Ward did made him a traitor. But was he truly a traitor? He never betrayed the team because he was never truly with them. He was an undercover spy. He was working for Garrett. The only person Ward could have betrayed would have been Garrett since that's who he was working for. Ward was true to the mission.

 

Right now, he doesn't believe that he needs to be fixed. Is it moral to force that opinion upon him?

 

Maybe not forcing him to change his opinion, but if the person has skills that you can use, skills that can be used for good, and a true, sweet goodness deep down inside that can be molded, then why couldn't it be moral to remove the bad memories and give the person the chance they never originally had? Ward likes who he is, he's a survivor, so he probably won't come around, but I hope Coulson zaps him with the mindwipe.

 

So my impression was that it was a bluff.

 

It very well could be. Coulson always has a plan, and this time I don't think Ward will get the better of him. But if there is a way to mindwipe Ward, I hope Coulson forces it on him somehow. Old Ward, new Ward, I just want Ward on the team. And with the Bobbi/Hunter spinoff coming, there could be vacancies. Ward fills a void.

 

I feel bad for her. Coulson is using every resource at his disposal to find Skye. But she was a SHIELD agent captured and brainwashed by HYDRA and no one gives a damn.

 

At one point Ward was flying the plane, while everyone else was in the back. What the hell Coulson?

 

I wouldn't say nobody cares about what Kara went through, but remember she was their enemy disguised as May at one point and IIRC Phil and her had a moment in the hallway where he figured out she couldn't be the real May. If Kara stays on board with the team going forward, things will be worked out. She's shown concern for teammates when she aided Hunter. I think Coulson cares and appreciates that. What Ward is up to, who knows.

 

Ward is all about the "mission." He'll do the mission and be loyal. Coulson knows this so that's why he isn't worried so much about Ward flying the quinjet and then trusting him in the office building battle. Ward has skills that Coulson needs. "We both know you're that good."

 

Just as an aside, in the scene where they all pull their guns on each other, Ward grabbed Fitz' gun. It happened so fast that I initially missed it. So, apparently Ward wasn't armed prior to that.

[Jeezaloo]

So they were both possessed by aliens but only one of them is targeted for it. Gotcha.

[xqueenfrostine]

So they were both possessed by aliens but only one of them is targeted for it. Gotcha.

 

Gonzalez is a hypocritical character to be sure, but don't oversimplify things.  What happened to Coulson is not the same thing that happened to Mac, but even if it was it's not unreasonable to hold people higher up the food chain to more stringent standards than everyone else in the name of caution.  We don't make baggage handlers and flight attendants go through the same level of aggressive screening as we do pilots, and it's not because we only selectively care about who might have a drug problem or who might be mentally distressed.  It's because the damage those sorts of problems might cause is so much greater for the pilot than the other types of employees.  Coulson was the director of SHIELD and in his SHIELD, there was no real check on his authority or strategy for dealing with things should he ever unexpectedly be driven mad by the GH 325 serum.   Mac doesn't have that kind of authority.  He has just as much potential to hurt the people around him as Coulson does, but he doesn't have the potential to put whole nations or even the world at risk like Coulson does should he ever go off the deep end.

[Kel Varnsen]

Gonzalez and his crew appear to be more human centric. They don't so much hate super people as they don't trust them and think normals should be in charge. They're also hypocritical in complaining about Coulson keeping secrets while keeping secrets themselves.

 

It really makes me wonder how Gonzalez feels about Captain America.

[kitlee625]

The idea that what Ward did is unforgivable is hard to argue against. But there is gray area. Like you said, this is the stuff of espionage. People kill people, everyone can potentially be bad. Not that killing the two guards at the Guest House is comparable to executing Hand and ambushing Koening, Coulson's team did dispatch those two guards who were only doing their jobs. Was Coulson bad for that? No. Is Ward bad for what he did? Sure, but it's complicated. Coulson understands that complexity. He knows that they are in the business of secrets. Everyone keeps them and everyone is a hypocrite to be upset that others have kept secrets from them. You want to know the truth? Earn it.

 

But what Ward did made him a traitor. But was he truly a traitor? He never betrayed the team because he was never truly with them. He was an undercover spy. He was working for Garrett. The only person Ward could have betrayed would have been Garrett since that's who he was working for. Ward was true to the mission.

 

Maybe not forcing him to change his opinion, but if the person has skills that you can use, skills that can be used for good, and a true, sweet goodness deep down inside that can be molded, then why couldn't it be moral to remove the bad memories and give the person the chance they never originally had? Ward likes who he is, he's a survivor, so he probably won't come around, but I hope Coulson zaps him with the mindwipe.

 

It very well could be. Coulson always has a plan, and this time I don't think Ward will get the better of him. But if there is a way to mindwipe Ward, I hope Coulson forces it on him somehow. Old Ward, new Ward, I just want Ward on the team. And with the Bobbi/Hunter spinoff coming, there could be vacancies. Ward fills a void.

 

For me, Ward isn't unforgivable just because of his actions. It's because he feels no remorse for them or even acknowledge that they were wrong. He was working for an organization bent on world domination, who had no qualms in killing innocent people if they got in their way. He even brags to Skye that Hydra is stronger than SHIELD because SHIELD is too worried about pesky things like right and wrong. That is a classic villain line right there! In direct contrast to that we have May, who has also had to kill people in her job, but she does feel remorse, she does feel guilt. She doesn't just shrug off killing that little girl in "Melinda" as if it were nothing. She genuinely feels remorse that she wasn't able to save her.

 

It seems counterintuitive that the writers are actually going to go forward with the mindwipe threat, and if they do, I'll honestly be disappointed with them. First, it would completely erase whatever impact the Hydra betrayal had, and would essentially be like hitting the reset button on the series. (Other series have done it before, but I personally hate it.) Second, it would create this weird morality, where the difference between heroes and villains isn't the choices they make (which seems to be a theme in the MCU), but rather all about who is mind controlling them.

 

Finally, I really don't get this idea that Ward never betrayed the team because it was all part of his mission for Garrett. He manipulated them to earn their trust. He preyed on their trust, killed their friends, worked for someone who tried to kill/torture them, and then he personally tried to kill all of them. Of course they have a right to be mad at them! At the very least, they have no way of trusting him again because the last time they did that, he tried to kill them.

 

For him to be on the team again, the writers need to show (not tell, show) us why we the audience and why the team should ever trust him again. In my opinion, they just haven't done that.

Edited April 24, 2015 by kitlee625

[FurryFury]

At this point, if I had to predict what's going to happen with Ward, it's one of two things: either he dies in the finale or he's shipped onto the spin-off (assuming it gets picked up). There's been a lot of talk about possible redemption for him, but the show never really did it or even hinted at it. The mind-wipe stuff is probably a red herring. 

That said, if there was a logical way to keep him and make him interact with the team, I'd take it, because I enjoy the character and his relationships. Alas, I don't really see such a way presently. 

[DeLurker]

 

But what Ward did made him a traitor. But was he truly a traitor? He never betrayed the team because he was never truly with them. He was an undercover spy. He was working for Garrett. The only person Ward could have betrayed would have been Garrett since that's who he was working for. Ward was true to the mission.

So he had his fingers crossed when he swore allegiance to SHIELD, that doesn't neutralize the slew of bad things he did.

 

And he could and did betray the other members of the team who relied on him based on his representations and actions.  He may have done it under false pretense, but he played into both their professional and personal relationships.

[mac123x]

Gonzalez is a hypocritical character to be sure, but don't oversimplify things.  What happened to Coulson is not the same thing that happened to Mac, but even if it was it's not unreasonable to hold people higher up the food chain to more stringent standards than everyone else in the name of caution.  We don't make baggage handlers and flight attendants go through the same level of aggressive screening as we do pilots, and it's not because we only selectively care about who might have a drug problem or who might be mentally distressed.  It's because the damage those sorts of problems might cause is so much greater for the pilot than the other types of employees.  Coulson was the director of SHIELD and in his SHIELD, there was no real check on his authority or strategy for dealing with things should he ever unexpectedly be driven mad by the GH 325 serum.   Mac doesn't have that kind of authority.  He has just as much potential to hurt the people around him as Coulson does, but he doesn't have the potential to put whole nations or even the world at risk like Coulson does should he ever go off the deep end.

 

It's not just the alien-influence that makes Gonzalez distrust Coulson.  It's also the as-yet-undefined Theta Protocol and the uncertainty of what's in the Tool Box.  Mac was only possessed for a short time; Coulson has been behaving shiftily for a while.

[KirkB]

It really makes me wonder how Gonzalez feels about Captain America.

 

 

A good question, actually. On the one hand Captain America IS a powered person, which seems to be a problem for him, but on the other hand he is the one who brought the Hydra threat to light and stopped it from doing something truly horrific. My guess is Cap's patriotism and above the board mindset (ie he doesn't like to keep secrets and is all about following orders) would make him a powered person Gonzalez could trust as much as he does any of them, but he still wouldn't want him IN SHIELD or a position of any real power/authority. 

 

As for the rest of the Avengers...

 

Widow and Hawkeye, he probably considers to still be SHIELD agents. He'd treat them like Coulson's team. Bring them in and see where their loyalties lie. If they agreed with them he'd offer them a position. If not....

 

Hulk and Thor are pretty much just flat out dangerous. One is a monster and the other is an alien. They're too powerful to be allowed to run loose, the only problem is Gonzalez doesn't have any assets strong enough to stop them.

 

Stark is a wild card. He's human and has helped out SHIELD in the past but he also hangs out with monsters.

[sjohnson]

Not that killing the two guards at the Guest House is comparable to executing Hand and ambushing Koening, Coulson's team did dispatch those two guards who were only doing their jobs. Was Coulson bad for that? No. Is Ward bad for what he did? 

 

But what Ward did made him a traitor. But was he truly a traitor? He never betrayed the team because he was never truly with them. He was an undercover spy. He was working for Garrett. The only person Ward could have betrayed would have been Garrett since that's who he was working for. Ward was true to the mission.

Is Coulson bad for keeping advanced technology secret, for conducting a unilateral policy for relations with other forms of life and many other actions of this kind? Overall I'd say yes. Which makes something like the killing of guards collateral damage in a bad cause.

 

SHIELD/HYDRA devised a mass preemptive murder scheme, then SHIELD/HYDRA lapsed into an internal conflict over who got to pull the trigger. I'm not impressed with the moral purity of SHIELD/HYDRA. 

 

If Ward betrayed SHIELD, then Simmons betrayed HYDRA when she went undercover and let a man die for what she did. The assumption is that Ward owed  one side of SHIELD/HYDRA loyalty even though he was recruited directly to the other side of SHIELD/HYDRA. Agents of SHIELD isn't written with great sophistication, and the show holds that of course he does because latterday SHIELD is the good guy and others aren't. 

 

In direct contrast to that we have May, who has also had to kill people in her job, but she does feel remorse, she does feel guilt. She doesn't just shrug off killing that little girl in "Melinda" as if it were nothing. She genuinely feels remorse that she wasn't able to save her.

 

It seems counterintuitive that the writers are actually going to go forward with the mindwipe threat, and if they do, I'll honestly be disappointed with them. First, it would completely erase whatever impact the Hydra betrayal had, and would essentially be like hitting the reset button on the series. (Other series have done it before, but I personally hate it.) Second, it would create this weird morality, where the difference between heroes and villains isn't the choices they make (which seems to be a theme in the MCU), but rather all about who is mind controlling them.

 

Finally, I really don't get this idea that Ward never betrayed the team because it was all part of his mission for Garrett. He manipulated them to earn their trust. He preyed on their trust, killed their friends, worked for someone who tried to kill/torture them, and then he personally tried to kill all of them. Of course they have a right to be mad at them! At the very least, they have no way of trusting him again because the last time they did that, he tried to kill them.

I don't think May feeling remorse is all it takes to make it right. The show set it up so that May had the choice of killing a killer about to commit mass murder, or letting them die, then ultimately dying herself. It would have been irrational, as well as suicidal, to have not killed the girl. Her guilt adds nothing at all to the morality of her action. Many people are prone to guilt just from being accused or simply surviving. Feeling guilty is only relevant as a motive for further action or change. I think the premises of the whole incident are so far fetched though that the morality of it all doesn't relate to real people at all and therefore kind of trite. 

 

As to the impact of the HYDRA "betrayal," the real impact I thought was the proof that the day to day operations of SHIELD were for years indistinguishable from those of HYDRA. SHIELD=HYDRA! But Marvel's Agents of SHIELD has been dedicated from day one to ignoring the real consequences of this discovery, which has severely damaged it as a show in my opinion. As for the weirdness of taking into account mind control, I personally feel it is exceedingly weird not to take into account compulsion, whether it's mental illness, severe abuse and unprincipled manipulation, and in general all the circumstances of life that drive us to do certain things and keep us from doing others. It is the assumption that we are all free agents that I find really strange.

 

Yes, Ward did unpleasant things indeed to the main cast. But Black Widow and Hawkeye did equally unpleasant things to others yet they were forgiven. 

 

In my view, Ward's redemption arc is already underway. As Coulson noted, he's trying to help 33, just as he tried to help Skye. What I question is whether he could be redeemed by becoming a SHIELD agent. Frankly I have no idea why Black Widow or Hawkeye are still regarded as having been successfully redeemed by working for Alexander Pierce! How is is really relevant to Ward's redemption if he helps send Skye to a prison cabin in the woods, or hunts down Inhumans? I think that would be more of the bad stuff, not redemption.

Edited April 24, 2015 by sjohnson

[FurryFury]

I don't think May feeling remorse is all it takes to make it right.

 

It doesn't make it right. It makes it relatable and sympathetic and open to change. You can't be truly redeemed against your will. And Ward so far hasn't show any desire to do it.

 

Her guilt adds nothing at all to the morality of her action.

 

Morality is subjective. And for the viewers, knowing how she feels, matters a lot as to how they understand the character and empathize with her. With Ward, I'm sure most people would be just "WTF?" if he gets redeemed. He has never been shown as sympathetic. There are characters on TV that have done way worse than Ward and still got their redemption - but the difference is, the writing of these shows made it clear they wanted for the viewers to sympathize with these characters. With Ward, there has been zero indication of this.

 

In my view, Ward's redemption arc is already underway. As Coulson noted, he's trying to help 33, just as he tried to help Skye.

 

But why was he doing it? That's the question! I mean, if a serial killer helps you find his copycat (for instance) would you really consider him on the path to redemption? If a stalker helps you find their victim only to terrorize her further? The point is Ward may be helping Kara and Coulson for purely selfish motives. In fact, he has said to Kara that he has a plan. Now, what kind of plan, we don't know, but it's almost a given that he's playing at least Coulson (and I'm kinda hoping Coulson's playing him in turn) and maybe Kara as well.

Edited April 24, 2015 by FurryFury

[blackwing]

I'm a bit disappointed in how they portray the manifestation of Luke Mitchell's powers.  He sticks two fingers and a tiny little arc of lightning shoots out?  No.  Just looks so lame.  Perhaps it's because this is TV and not big budget, but the budget seems big enough for other things.  I want huge blasts of lightning, not the lame looking blip.  No wonder why Gordon calls him "Sparkplug", because his energy bolt is about the size of one.

[ChelseaNH]

would essentially be like hitting the reset button on the series

 

Well, the series started with a reset button on Coulson's death, so it would be thematically appropriate...

 

I don't think May feeling remorse is all it takes to make it right.

 

It doesn't.  The point is, May's remorse indicates that she's evaluating her actions from a moral context and a recognition that her actions have consequences beyond her own immediate concerns.

[Quickbeam]

Small local point but I was really jazzed that they said Skye and Cal were going to Milwaukee. When I saw "the currency exchange" I laughed since Milwaukee is many things but not exactly a hub of international commerce. 

 

I so <3 Cal. KM is just the most wonderfully goofy actor. 

[xqueenfrostine]

If Ward betrayed SHIELD, then Simmons betrayed HYDRA when she went undercover and let a man die for what she did. The assumption is that Ward owed  one side of SHIELD/HYDRA loyalty even though he was recruited directly to the other side of SHIELD/HYDRA. Agents of SHIELD isn't written with great sophistication, and the show holds that of course he does because latterday SHIELD is the good guy and others aren't. 

 

I don't think Ward's big sin is that he infiltrated SHIELD for HYDRA.  He's a spy by profession and infiltrating rival organizations is part of that job.  It's the personal relationships that he made along the way to further that end that are the big deal.  It's his betrayals of his team members, who he actively courted as friends and lovers in order to gain their trust and blend in (something that wasn't strictly necessary as a loyal agent like May didn't go out of her way to make friends and she wasn't deemed suspicious for not doing so) and not his professional subterfuge that made what he did so wrong.  You mentioned Simmons's infiltration of HYDRA, which is probably the best counter example on the show because because we actually saw Simmons struggle on this very point.  She was willing to go undercover as a scientist at HYDRA, but she expressed discomfort and unwillingness to "lie like Ward did" in order to get ahead at HYDRA.  She didn't mean lying to her coworkers about her work and her history, she meant she didn't feel comfortable befriending people under false pretenses while knowing that because of her job she might have to put them into harm's way.  That choice is both what makes Simmons a good, moral person and a not so great undercover agent. (I'm of the mind that undercover agent, like contract killer or loan shark, isn't a job you can excel at if you're not a terrible person or at least willing to do terrible things.  Even going undercover for the right reasons requires a level of ruthlessness that truly good people would find difficult to pull off).

 

This is also the same place where I feel Mac and Bobbi went went wrong too.  Infiltrating Coulson's inner circle might have been just business, but their respective betrayals of Fitz and Hunter are where they really erred.  Unlike Ward though, they both showed (both during and afterward) regret for how their work would end up hurting the people whose trust and friendship they'd gained, which is why redeeming either character won't be a difficult endeavor.  Though I think Bobbi in particular has proved herself to be someone who no one can really trust on a personal level.  Earlier in the season I thought Hunter was being insecure and paranoid for viewing Bobbi as some who he loves but can never trust again, but he turned out to be dead on on that one as she was willing to live a lie with someone she loves not once but twice.  

 

Ward has shown zero remorse for what he did personally to the people in his life, and until that happens there is no redemption process.  Furthermore, I'd be very surprised if there was an active plan to redeem him in the writers' room. They've done too much this year to make him look murderous and unhinged.  No matter how bad his family really was, murdering your brother and parents and then burning the house around them isn't the kind of thing writers do for a character they want the audience to see as a hero.   A hero would have just found a way to get everyone in jail or remove them from positions of power and influence.   It's very telling that that's not the way they chose to go with Ward.  That says they want us to see him as a dangerous psychopath.  A dangerous psychopath  with reasons for being that way, sure, but still the important element is psychopath.

Edited April 25, 2015 by xqueenfrostine

[Donny Ketchum]

I don't think Ward's big sin is that he infiltrated SHIELD for HYDRA.  He's a spy by profession and infiltrating rival organizations is part of that job.  It's the personal relationships that he made along the way to further that end that are the big deal.  It's his betrayals of his team members, who he actively courted as friends and lovers in order to gain blend in (something that wasn't strictly necessary as a loyal agent like May didn't go out of her way to make friends and she wasn't deemed suspicious for not doing so) and not his professional subterfuge that made what he did so wrong.  You mentioned Simmons's infiltration of HYDRA, which is probably the best counter example on the show because because we actually saw Simmons struggle on this very point.  She was willing to go undercover as a scientist at HYDRA, but she expressed discomfort and unwillingness to "lie like Ward did" in order to get ahead at HYDRA.  She didn't mean lying to her coworkers about her work and her history, she meant she didn't feel comfortable befriending people under false pretenses while knowing that because of her job she might have to put them into harm's way.  That choice is both what makes Simmons a good, moral person and a not so great undercover agent. (I'm of the mind that undercover agent, like contract killer or loan shark, isn't a job you can excel at if you're not a terrible person or at least willing to do terrible things.  Even going undercover for the right reasons requires a level of ruthlessness that truly good people would find difficult to pull off).

 

This is also the same place where I feel Mac and Bobbi went went wrong too.  Infiltrating Coulson's inner circle might have been just business, but their respective betrayals of Fitz and Hunter are where they really erred.  Unlike Ward though, they both showed (both during and afterward) regret for how their work would end up hurting the people whose trust and friendship they'd gained, which is why redeeming either character won't be a difficult endeavor.  Though I think Bobbi in particular has proved herself to be someone who no one can really trust on a personal level.  Earlier in the season I thought Hunter was being insecure and paranoid for viewing Bobbi as some who he loves but can never trust again, but he turned out to be dead on on that one as she was willing to live a lie with someone she loves not once but twice.  

 

Ward has shown zero remorse for what he did personally to the people in his life, and until that happens there is no redemption process.  Furthermore, I'd be very surprised if there was an active plan to redeem him in the writers' room. They've done too much this year to make him look murderous and unhinged.  No matter how bad his family really was, murdering your brother and parents and then burning the house around them isn't the kind of thing writers do for a character they want the audience to see as a hero.   A hero would have just found a way to get everyone in jail or remove them from positions of power and influence.   It's very telling that that's not the way they chose to go with Ward.  That says they want us to see him as a dangerous psychopath.  A dangerous psychopath  with reasons for being that way, sure, but still the important element is psychopath.

It is also worth noting that in the episode last season following his reveal as a traitor (after he shot and killed Hand to save Garrett from capture), Ward was seen bragging and joking with Garrett about how well and truly he'd fooled Coulson, May, Skye, Fitz, and Simmons and how he was still playing them.  If that's not a sign of remorselessness, then I don't know what is.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Donny Ketchum

[KirkB]

I don't think the lying and infiltration is really the issue. That's part of the business. Spies by their nature have to lie and get close to people in order to get the information or whatever they are after. Ward lying to Coulson and the others to close to them is part of the business, even though he was gaining their trust while always planning to one day betray them. Harsh as it is, that's the spy life. Widow did it with Stark. Well, she wasn't betraying him exactly, but she did lie to get close to him while reporting on him to Fury. Since he was never a true believer in Hydra I could accept Ward as just another spy, like Coulson and May. But then he started killing SHIELD agents, loyal SHIELD agents like Hand and those guys at the Triskelion or wherever it was. By comparison the guards Coulson and company killed to get the alien blood for Skye were deliberately left ambiguous in light of what followed, they may have been SHIELD or Hydra, And unless I'm misremembering they gave a clear warning and then opened fire, they didn't shoot Coulson or the others in the back while pretending to be on their side like Ward did Hand and the other SHIELD agents. 

[APSimpson]

A dangerous psychopath with reasons for being that way, sure, but still the important element is psychopath.

 

This is the thing that makes the potential mind-wipe so intriguing to me. If this happens to Ward, will he still be the psychopath? Or will he channel that potential in him to be the protector, a guardian of the group which he originally fooled the team into thinking he was. The word "ward" even can mean that: keeping guard. This is one reason I was so resistant to the Ward turn even though I was exhilarated by it but never felt it was real at first. Ward is a sympathetic figure in a sense, because of his childhood and being conditioned by Garrett. Who knows how he would have turned out with a better upbringing? The mind-wipe could show us who he'd become.

 

One thing I've been thinking about, too, is that all of these characters it seems have kept secrets from one another, so can they really hold a grudge against Ward when others have had their own agendas as well? Not as bad as Ward, true, but all of it together builds up and could in a strange way have a mitigating effect on Ward's actions.

Edited April 25, 2015 by APSimpson

[kitlee625]

Even if the other characters have their own agendas, none of those agenda have included attempting to kill each other. So I think that's why the writers could reasonably have, for example Coulson forgive May for keeping the secret of his resurrection in season 1, but not forgive Ward. Because May lied to him to protect him. Ward tried to kill everyone on the team.

 

What's interesting is how the writers have made sure to show a somewhat sympathetic side with Olmos SHIELD, something they never did with Hydra. Olmos SHIELD used neurotoxin gas to knock out everyone, locked them up, and tried to persuade them to join. Hydra just killed everyone and threatened death if they did not join. When someone from Olmos SHIELD did use deadly force against Skye, we see other members of Olmos SHIELD (namely Bobbi) be upset about that and defend Skye's right to defend herself. Something that Ward never did. Finally, we see Bobbi especially questioning whether the morality of their actions, again, all to make Olmos SHIELD understandable and at least partially sympathetic. They may be hypocritical and paranoid, but they are never painted as bad as Hydra, which is just painted as evil.

 

Even before Ward met Garrett, we know that he was a pretty disturbed kid if he ran away from military school and traveled hundreds of miles to burn his older brother alive. Sure, that may be due to his upbringing. But a lot of villains have horrible upbringings, and just because it may explain why they became villains, it does not excuse them. Also just because his last name means "protector" doesn't mean that that's his job on the team. In fact, I think his name is kind of a joke by the writers. After the reveal we learn that his full name "Grant Douglas Ward" means "Great dark protector." Which, I would argue, he is.