S01.E09: Pimento

[Oscirus]

Just because Saul Goodman never talked about Kim doesn't mean they weren't together. After all, we never hear about Howard Hamlin's wife.

 

I'd assume that if she was still around that she'd have been in the hideout with him when the vacuum man was about to take him to his new identity.  Besides, my opinion is  based on the tone of the show and Jimmy's relationship with the evil law firm.

[Wiendish Fitch]

This is the best episode I've seen, and considering Better Call Saul has exceeded my expectations and has been nothing but strong and consistent, that's saying something.

 

Even though there have been better, more intelligent and insightful contributions to the discussion of Chuck and Jimmy's falling out, I felt like adding my two cents. 
 

I get Chuck's feelings... wait, let me finish!

 

During his rant, I almost got where he was coming from. Chuck's identity is wrapped up with being a lawyer. He buckled down and gotten where he is the old-fashioned way by working hard, getting into a prestigious law school, and making his way to the top (so the show implies, assuming Chuck never had any Jimmy/Saul-like tricks up his sleeve). In his eyes, Jimmy is the goofy little brother who charmed his way to his level, took the "easy way" (though Jimmy did buckle down and pass the bar, so I wouldn't really call that the "easy way"), and Chuck bristles at having to treat "Slippin' Jimmy" as an equal. I'm showing my age here, but anyone old enough to remember that Saved by the Bell episode where brainiac Jessie is shocked and incensed that lazy class clown Zack got a higher SAT score than she did? It sort of brought that to mind*.

 

I'm not saying Chuck is right, I'm saying it's understandable. Whether we agree or disagree isn't the point. Ugly, resentful, and downright hateful thoughts and emotions are what make us human. Lord knows I have a list of people I don't like, or who I resent and/or envy, who doesn't? Who among us hasn't looked on someone as an unwanted rival and thought, "Who does he/she think he/she is?"? Chuck's feelings aren't the problem, as so many have rightly pointed out. His actions are.

 

Chuck has blithely let Jimmy play nursemaid/errand boy/daddy and big brother figure during his bout of mental illness (I really like the theory that Chuck's latent guilt at undermining Jimmy perpetuated his "allergy to electricity"), taking Jimmy's kindness for granted all the while sabotaging his efforts behind his back for God knows how long. Chuck strikes me as a hyper-complacent person, someone who is all too comfortable with the status quo. He's the successful role model big brother, and Jimmy is the idiot kid brother he has always had to bail out of trouble. Even now, when they're both middle-aged men, and Chuck is the one who relies on Jimmy, Chuck refuses to see him as anything but an immature screw-up. He refuses to acknowledge that Jimmy, in spite of his myriad of flaws, has proven to be a vigilant, loyal, and loving brother who has complained very little about taking care of Chuck or all the accommodations he has to make for him (I wonder if the neighbors have ever thought to reach in the mailbox and steal Jimmy's watch, phone and keys?). Chuck still views Jimmy as a child, which is ironic, considering that Chuck has handled this whole situation - indeed, his own feelings - in the most immature fashion. Instead of leveling with Jimmy sooner, being honest about his feelings, and just bluntly telling him not to join HHM, Chuck has chosen to stew in his own juices, orchestrate an underhanded scheme to screw over his own brother, and make Hamlin the heavy just so he doesn't have to be the bad guy and get his hands dirty (and risk losing Jimmy's free help). Chuck is like the sneaky child who breaks a vase, discards the evidence, dodges accusations from Mom, and sits by while someone else takes the blame. Jimmy himself certainly has the lying gene, but he's nowhere near as vicious about it as Chuck.

 

What makes this so heartbreaking for Jimmy (and Chuck, if he has anything resembling a conscience) is that Chuck could very well be the only family he has left, and he's been betrayed so horribly by him. I could be remembering incorrectly, but I don't recall any mention of their parents or other siblings, so it's possible it's just the two of them. 

 

Jimmy is sabotaged, humiliated, and viciously chewed out by the brother he has admired his whole life (and, for the record, is taking care of), learning the hard way that he will never, ever earn his respect or his trust. Is it any wonder that basically good-hearted Jimmy becomes slimy, brash, callous, devil-may-care Saul Goodman?

 

*Then again, Jessie and Zack were teenagers and handled their situation a hell of a lot better than Chuck, who is staring down 60, handled his.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Wiendish Fitch

[lrockyb]

Here's the thing about Chuck. He could have let Howard hire Jimmy from the get go. A firm the size of HHM would have dozens, if not hundreds of associates toiling away in the bowels of the building doing research, drawing up wills and contracts and preparing cases for trials. They would never meet with clients and they would never appear in court. Chuck probably doesn't consider them to be real lawyers either. Jimmy could have become one of those drones and Chuck could have been proud of his little brother.

[ToastnBacon]

What about Chuck's responsibility to the law firm? What about all those people who work at HHM and depend on their salaries to support their families?

As a founding partner at the firm, Chuck is obligated to make sound business decisions. That would include not hiring a lawyer that he knows has a history of breaking the law, even if it is his own brother.

Jimmy couldn't do any real damage to the firm in the mail room, so Chuck is ok with him being there.

But turning Jimmy loose at the firm to work cases? Too much of a risk for the entire firm; just one of Jimmy's high risk stunts could take down the entire firm.

Chuck would be a jerk in my eyes if he insisted that his high-risk brother be hired at the firm.

Yes, Chuck was jealous of Jimmy's charm and humor. Yes, Chuck didn't have the courage to be upfront with Jimmy.

However, he had solid reasons for keeping Jimmy out. I don't see that Chuck sabotaged Jimmy's career in anyway either, he just made him do it on his own.

I don't see how Chuck stole that case from him either. Ultimately Jimmy had a choice in what to do with the case.

Chick's sins are jealousy and cowardice. One could argue that he was trying to protect Jimmy's feelings by hiding behind Hamlin.

I'm not sure if that was the case or not, but even if it was, it backfired and hurt Jimmy more deeply than if he'd been upfront with him. I'm thinking Chuck will pay for it.

I just don't see Chuck as the devil people are making him out to be.

[Constantinople]

Yes, I never forget that the first time I met Saul, his recommendation was to have Badger killed.

 

Saul's first recommendation was that Badger shouldn't masturbate in public.  After Badger objected, Saul realized he confused Badger with another client.

 

Later, when Badger's "uncle" visited Saul at his office, Saul said told Badger's "uncle" that Badger couldn't handle prison and Badger should sing like a canary to the DEA to minimize any jail time.

[WicketyWack]

During that episode, he did recommend they off Badger, but it wasn't his first recommendation. It was a last resort.

 

Saul highly recommended that Badger rat out Heisenberg, causing Jesse and Walt to kidnap Saul and drive him out to the desert to a pre-dug grave. Saul is panicking and trying to figure out why they're targeting him. "Why don't you just kill Badger? Follow me guys, but if a mosquito's buzzing around you and bites you on the ass, you don't go gunning for the mosquito's attorney, you grab a fly swatter."

 

Later, he tells them that reserving Jimmy In & Out's services will cost $80,000 and a pound of meth, and they balk. Saul says, "Look, if this option is too expensive for you, you can always [stabbing motion] Badger in the chow line."

 

Also interesting that during that episode, he wouldn't take Walt's $10,000 to give Badger bad representation, even though Badger was paying him less than $5K. "I don't take bribes from strangers," he said later. "It was kinda low anyways." And makes the first reference to having bad knees. 

Edited April 5, 2015 by WicketyWack

[ToastnBacon]

Just because Saul Goodman never talked about Kim doesn't mean they weren't together. After all, we never hear about Howard Hamlin's wife.

.

I can't see Kim and Jimmy going very far with each other. Jimmy just has too much stuff swirling around him, even at this point in the story.

We are pretty sure that it is only going to get worse too. I think Jimmy cares too much about Kim to let her get drawn into his trials and tribulations as Saul Goodman.

I think he is likely to push her away, but one never knows with this show.

I can see Saul marrying one of the Vietnamese ladies from the nail salon at some point, if not out of romance, out of a favor to solve an immigration problem.

Just a hunch, but I think the nail salon ladies provide too many opportunities for levity that the writers will not ignore them.

Plus, they are likely to have extended families in need of all types of legal services. Wasn't one of Gus Fring's chemical suppliers a Vietnamese man?

I expect the Veitnamese ladies to emerge as solid characters at some point.

[wrestlesflamingos]

Has the show established the nail salon workers are vietnamese?

[lucindabelle]

Chuck is a villain. Sorry, bt you don't throw roadblocks in front of someone because of what they might do. 

 

Firms of that size as others have pointed out have tons of associates. Jimmy has more trial experience than many associates who would do nothing more than carry someone else's papers into court. My brother, who's a lawyer at a big firm and has a prestigious Ivy League degree, found Chuck's reasoning absurd to the point of implausible (he also couldn't see the sibling rivalry, which amuses me, as he's the oldest). It's the norm for someone who brings in a case like that to have a seat at the table, as Kimmy rightly pointed out.

NOT to have one is what's not normal.

 

To hurt someone based on what you know of their childhood is just as wrong as to hire someone based on nepotism. It's using insider info that may or may not be relevant, rather than the requirements and responsibilities of the work at hand. This was Jimmy's case, and he deserved to be on it.

 

I wonder what will happen now, though.

 

There's no excuse for what Chuck did, despite his self-justification. 

[editorgrrl]

I can see Saul marrying one of the Vietnamese ladies from the nail salon at some point, if not out of romance, out of a favor to solve an immigration problem.

Just a hunch, but I think the nail salon ladies provide too many opportunities for levity that the writers will not ignore them.

Plus, they are likely to have extended families in need of all types of legal services. Wasn't one of Gus Fring's chemical suppliers a Vietnamese man?

I expect the Veitnamese ladies to emerge as solid characters at some point.

Has the show established the nail salon workers are Vietnamese?

In "Uno," Jimmy said “chào các cô” to Mrs. Nguyen and the "ladies."

Edited April 5, 2015 by editorgrrl

[ToastnBacon]

It's the norm for someone who brings in a case like that to have a seat at the table, as Kimmy rightly pointed out.

NOT to have one is what's not normal.

It also is not normal for a lawyer to have a history of Chicago Sunroofs, conning people with fake Rolexs in dark alleys, pulling elaborate publicity stunts, impersonating Matlock, and having a distance-learning law degree.

To hurt someone based on what you know of their childhood is just as wrong as to hire someone based on nepotism. It's using insider info that may or may not be relevant, rather than the requirements and responsibilities of the work at hand. This was Jimmy's case, and he deserved to be on it.

Childhood? Jimmy was an adult when Chuck went back to get him out of that Chicago sunroof problem. If nepotism is wrong, there you go, solid reason. Edited April 5, 2015 by ToastnBacon

[editorgrrl]

There is no black & white answer here. Jimmy, Chuck, Howard, Mike, Nacho & even Tuco all do good things and they do bad things. Hell, Mrs. Nguyen gives Jimmy a hard time about the cucumber water, but she tried her best to give him Hamlin hair.

Speaking of Howard Hamlin, I would love to see Pat Boone play his dad—or even grandad.

As for this episode, I'm glad Nacho's back. And I hope he & Mike cross paths again.

[lucindabelle]

The sunroof had zero to do with this case.

 

I don't believe the ends justify the means. Apparently, you do. Jimmy's been a good lawyer on this case and there's no evidence at all that he'd do anything to jeopardize it or the firm. The sunroof was from before he was a lawyer.

 

 You think Chuck was right to judge Jimmy on his past, from before he was a lawyer. But I disagree. And again, Chuck's "You're not a real lawyer" struck my brother, who is a litigator in a huge firm, as ridiculous. Jimmy's more of a real lawyer than the associates who've never been in court at all. The point is, the NORM is for the person bringing the case to be at the table. You think it would have been down to Chuck to hire him, but in fact, that would have been the obvious, normal, thing to do.

 

"Impersonating Matlock?" That is a huge stretch. He *dressed* like him so he'd *remind* people of Matlock. He wasn't impersonating him, as in going around saying, "Hi, I'm Matlock." Dressing a certain way to leave a certain impression is what people do in all walks of life. There's nothing the least bit sketchy about wearing a light suit to remind people of a fictional character they trust, anymore than it's sketchy to wear a dark suit and tie to reassure people you're respectable.

 

And having a distance-learning degree doesn't change the fact that he passed the bar fair and square and has been working as a lawyer ever since. It's one thing to mind his actual criminal activities, but to suggest that these things make him "not a real lawyer" is a reach. He's a lawyer. He's been in court. He draws up wills. He pursues cases.

 

Actually, when have we seen Chuck do a "good thing?"

Edited April 5, 2015 by lucindabelle

[peeayebee]

I was out of town for a week, so I finally got to watch yesterday. Sometimes I hate taking a vacation.

 

As soon as Chuck protested, I was sure.

Yep.  Same here. I almost wish they didn't have the phone scene.  It ended up feeling almost too revealing because the work McKean and Fabian (Hamlin) did in that protest scene was great.  Chuck's protests were poorly acted (by the character, not the actor.)

That is my one criticism of the ep: Chuck should not have so poorly faked his outrage. I'm sure when Jimmy confronted Chuck with what he'd figured out, and Chuck confirmed it, that it was meant to be a surprise and a shock to viewers. But it wasn't, not to me. I don't see any reason why Chuck couldn't have acted more believably in the office scene. 

 

Question:  Do y'all think that Chuck merely guessed at the coming hearing for a restraining order, or was he tipped?  Did he invite the document dump?  Just how bad do y'all think he broke in this treacherous betrayal?

Of course he invited the document dump!

I don't see how. Chuck didn't have a phone. He reluctantly and fearfully used Jimmy's phone to call Hamlin. I think it was implied that this was a first for him since his condition arose. What the retirement home law firm was doing was standard practice, just like Chuck said. 

 

In "Uno," Chuck told Jimmy that Howard Hamlin wanted Jimmy to change the name of his firm. In hindsight, it was actually Chuck who doesn't want Jimmy using the name "McGill."

Again, I didn't get the impression that Chuck has been in regular contact with Howard. Plus, Howard's irritation about Jimmy appropriating his look, and his anger over the company name, font, color, etc., was clearly coming from Howard, not Chuck.

 

Here is my take on why all the troops at HHM turned out in the lobby to applaud Chuck's return. Hamlin ordered them to do it! ... That isn't a good indicator of Chuck being loved and well liked at HHM. Chuck was probably very aloof and too busy to be the friendly, hand shaking, backslapping partner at HHM.

I'm not sure. When the employees were putting their phones in the bin, no one looked pissed about it. I think if there was any resentment about doing something nice for Chuck, we would have seen a sign.

 

 

I can understand Chuck's motivations, both good and bad. He'd seen Jimmy committing crimes for a long time. Jimmy would say he'd be good, but then he'd slip right back to being Slippin' Jimmy. Chuck didn't have confidence in him. I understand. I also think he was resentful of Jimmy and dismissive of any progress he'd make. I do believe that Jimmy was getting on the straight and narrow. With Chuck's support, Jimmy could have become a great lawyer. That's my belief. 

 

I think Kim will forgive Jimmy the terrible things he said to her. I hope she will.

 

Loved all the scenes with Mike.

 

And wasn't that dog the cutest thing ever! I want it!

[lucindabelle]

 

I can understand Chuck's motivations, both good and bad. He'd seen Jimmy committing crimes for a long time. Jimmy would say he'd be good, but then he'd slip right back to being Slippin' Jimmy. Chuck didn't have confidence in him. I understand. I also think he was resentful of Jimmy and dismissive of any progress he'd make. I do believe that Jimmy was getting on the straight and narrow. With Chuck's support, Jimmy could have become a great lawyer. That's my belief. 

 

I think Kim will forgive Jimmy the terrible things he said to her. I hope she will.

 

 

I think this really sums it up-- Chuck had his reasons, and thought he was justified, but what was shown to us in this series was that Jimmy was working hard and trying to forge a career as a lawyer. He even took up elder law and seemed to have a knack for making old people happy-- and the suggestion came from Kimmy. Jimmy, I think, is pretty suggestible, ready to believe what others tell him about himself and live up-- or down-- to it.

 

I'm actually kind of glad Chuck was a bad actor. I hate it on TV when characters are little Oliviers in their lies (I'm looking at you, The Americans-- in that case the actor literally wasn't told his own motivation, but in hindsight, the teenager who killed his whole family and then faked shock was an incredible actor, when the character shouldn't have been).

 

I think Kim will forgive, too, because she will know Jimmy didn't know the whole story and was lashing out.

[ToastnBacon]

Jimmy wanted Chuck's respect and approval very much. He also wanted to overcome his past.

However, what does Jimmy do?

He pulls that elaborate stunt with the billboard in hopes of getting clients. He knew Chuck would never approve of that, so he tried hiding it.

When the stunt only gained him calls from nutty people and an old lady. He focused on the old folks.

How? He gave his practice the appearance of a carnival, with bingo games, jello cups, and presided over it in a Matlock suit.

For someone with a goal of winning his elder brother's respect and working at a prestigious law firm, that isn't the smartest way to go about it.

Officiating over bingo games doesn't fit the branding of an HHM lawyer, not surprised that Chuck was still wary of him.

As far as Jimmy's past, many employers do background checks and put resumes in the trash can for offenses far less than Chicago sunroofs.

From the urban dictionary

2

Chicago sunroof

Placing your penis on the head of a unsuspecting person especially a bears fan in a public place.

I totally gave Mike Ditka a Chicago sunroof.

Edited April 5, 2015 by ToastnBacon

[ShadowFacts]

I laughed semi out-loud at the definition of a Chicago sunroof.  'Especially a bears fan'.  Ha.  I have lived in Chicago, and doing that to a Bears fan would definitely land one in ass-beating territory. 

[editorgrrl]

All the Urban Dictionary "definitions" were posted after the episode aired. They're nothing but fan speculation.

[shapeshifter]

...And wasn't that dog the cutest thing ever! I want it!

Thanks for reminding me to ask: What breed is it?

[peeayebee]

I don't know. It looked like a mix to me.

 

BTW, the title 'Pimento' reminded me of 'pentimento.' The words aren't related, so I guess the writers didn't have this intent, but pentimento is an art term referring to paintings where "the presence or emergence of earlier images, forms, or strokes that have been changed and painted over." It could apply to this ep where we learn about what Chuck has been doing behind-the-scenes and what his true feelings about Jimmy are.

[Ailianna]

I don't think, myself, that Jimmy legally is a lawyer, and here's why. Even today, more than a decade after this show is set, you can't take the bar exam with an online law degree. The only place that allows it at all, and those are specific schools, in California. So I keep thinking that the reason it took him three tries to pass is because it took him three tries to get an application past the screeners, not that he took it and failed three times. So, maybe he's not a real lawyer because he's...not a real lawyer. He doesn't have the credentials required to be a lawyer. He dummied up something to sit the exam and pass it (cause that's wicked easy to check), but he doesn't actually have the required qualifications.

Now I know that it's probably something that was somehow overlooked in the writing/production. But this is a show that has a long discussion about if a character would take a piece of cake. Maybe it wasn't an oversight.

[ToastnBacon]

All the Urban Dictionary "definitions" were posted after the episode aired. They're nothing but fan speculation.

Fair enough, even if we go by this one, it is enough for Chuck to have serious doubts about Jimmy's trustworthiness.

TOP DEFINITION

Chicago Sunroof

An act performed by a young Jimmy McGill (aka Saul Goodman) on the TV show "Better Call Saul" which landed him behind bars. The specifics of this act are unknown, but it led to him being charged with assault, destruction of property, and a possible sex offense. Though Jimmy appears to think that a Chicago Sunroof is a harmless prank, the authorities believe otherwise.

Jimmy: It was a simple Chicago Sunroof!

Even if Chuck got him acquitted, there would still be a record of the arrest that would show up in a background check.

If my brother did that and had a history of being a con man, I wouldn't put him in a position to jeopardize my business.

Jimmy's past transgressions would be a huge issue for a great many employers, even family.

Jimmy is asking a lot of Chuck to be hired at HHM in my opinion. That type of behavior is not something easily overlooked.

His law degree would be a big disqualifyer too. American Samoan University would get your resume tossed in the trash can at most big firms.

Chuck knows about his past and his degree. It puts him in a very difficult spot with his partners. Especially if Slippin Jimmy, slips again.

I totally understand Chuck not wanting him there.

Edited April 5, 2015 by ToastnBacon

[haydensterling]

Thank you for opening the Jimmy and Kim character threads!  Much appreciated, mods!

[DangerousMinds]

There is no black & white answer here. Jimmy, Chuck, Howard, Mike, Nacho & even Tuco all do good things and they do bad things. Hell, Mrs. Nguyen gives Jimmy a hard time about the cucumber water, but she tried her best to give him Hamlin hair.

Speaking of Howard Hamlin, I would love to see Pat Boone play his dad—or even grandad.

As for this episode, I'm glad Nacho's back. And I hope he & Mike cross paths again.

Stealing cucumber water and cold blooded murder are entirely different "bad" things and cannot even be compared.

[Oscirus]

I think that Kim's private talk with Harry was more about getting her to talk Saul into giving up the case then it was about letting  her know about Chuck's role in the Jimmy situation.  Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't tell her anything about that at all. I ultimately think that Jimmy will get sick of being used by Kim to advance her career at that firm and that he will lay down an ultimatum that she will ultimately refuse.

 

I get the reasons for Chuck not wanting to hire his brother. But I still think it's stupid for Chuck to scumbag the one person that he's so reliant on.

[peeayebee]

I disagree about Kim. She always seems to be on the up and up. She cares about Jimmy and has been honest with him. She's loyal to the company because they paid for her law school (right?) and maybe also encouraged her to use her smarts outside of the mailroom. 

 

I'm also certain that Hamlin told her the truth about Chuck's feelings and directives about Jimmy. I really got the impression that Hamlin hated being the bad guy while Chuck got to be the supportive brother.

[Oscirus]

I'm sure she is on the up and up for now. That doesn't stop Hamlin from trying to get her to exploit her friendship with Jimmy for the firm's gain. Especially if he words it in a way that it seems like she's helping Jimmy.

 

As for telling her what Chuck did?  Why would he care what she thinks? This is the same guy who moved her office around just because she lost a client.  Maybe he did tell her just to sell her on getting Jimmy to give them the case but I doubt it had anything to do with his not wanting to be the bad guy.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Oscirus

[ToastnBacon]

I don't think, myself, that Jimmy legally is a lawyer, and here's why. Even today, more than a decade after this show is set, you can't take the bar exam with an online law degree. The only place that allows it at all, and those are specific schools, in California. So I keep thinking that the reason it took him three tries to pass is because it took him three tries to get an application past the screeners, not that he took it and failed three times. So, maybe he's not a real lawyer because he's...not a real lawyer. He doesn't have the credentials required to be a lawyer. He dummied up something to sit the exam and pass it (cause that's wicked easy to check), but he doesn't actually have the required qualifications.Now I know that it's probably something that was somehow overlooked in the writing/production. But this is a show that has a long discussion about if a character would take a piece of cake. Maybe it wasn't an oversight.

The more I think about this, the more sense it makes.

[shapeshifter]

...That doesn't stop Hamlin from trying to get her to exploiting her friendship with Jimmy for the firm's gain. Especially if he words it in a way that it seems like she's helping Jimmy....

I've been assuming/remembering the final "Take the deal, Jimmy" exchange between Kim and Jimmy as Kim now knowing that it was Chuck who wanted to keep Jimmy out of HHM. But do we really know that? The Show made a point of having the Kim-Hamlin discussion off screen. And we learned from Kim previously that she was financially in debt to Hamlin for her law degree education. Even though Hamlin's demeanor when he called her back to his office seemed like one of resignation that he needed to tell her the truth (that Chuck wants to keep Jimmy out), is it possible that Hamlin only softened his approach because he realized playing hard ball wasn't going to win her over to his point of view, and he knew she might go back to Jimmy and encourage him to fight harder for a place at the table? Do we really know that Kim now knows about Chuck? More importantly, was Jimmy's rant at Chuck mainly a self-fulfilling prophecy, convincing Chuck that he was right about Jimmy not "belonging" at HHM? I probably should just rewatch. Maybe I'm just projecting my own family dynamics onto the show's.

[ShadowFacts]

My feeling on watching it was Hamlin spoke so angrily to Kim because he was sick of the charade and having to be questioned and was instantly sorry he went off on her.  From that I assumed he told all.  He might have made her promise not to tell Jimmy, and she would honor that because a) she doesn't want to be the one to break his heart, and b) she has to play ball at HHM because they paid her law school, etc. etc.

[editorgrrl]

I've been assuming/ remembering the final "Take the deal, Jimmy" exchange between Kim and Jimmy as Kim now knowing that it was Chuck who wanted to keep Jimmy out of HHM. But do we really know that?

Kim: I think you should take the deal.

Jimmy: What?

Kim: I think you should slow down and think about it, because taking the deal really is the best thing for you. You'll find yourself a proper office, your office. You'll build your practice. You'll leave Hamlin and HHM behind—be your own man.

Jimmy: You want me to give up the case? My case?

Kim: I want you to be happy. And I know you want to stay with the case, but you'll get all the financial reward without the risk. How can that be bad?

There's no way to know how much (if anything) Kim knows (and/or suspects). This show loves ambiguity. In the "Better Call Saul" Insider podcast, Vince Gilligan said TPTB were concerned they were being way too obvious by showing Chuck call Howard Hamlin.

I think someone upthread (or in Chuck's thread) said this was the first time Chuck & Howard conspired against Jimmy, because Chuck is housebound. In "Uno," Chuck told Jimmy that Howard had been to see him. ("It's not like I'm a recluse.") Earlier that episode, when Jimmy told Hamlin that Chuck wanted to cash out, Howard was downright mocking:

Howard: So, these are Chuck's own wishes that you're conveying?

Jimmy: This is what's best for him.

Howard: So he personally told you that it's his wish to withdraw from the firm? [scoffs] See, that would surprise me.

At the time, I thought Howard was just a jerk. But after watching "Pimento," it's pretty clear that Howard knew Chuck's wishes way better than Jimmy did.

Edited April 6, 2015 by editorgrrl

[Bannon]

Just caught the episode last night, and it was worth the wait. I didn't think Chuck was going to be the main saboteur of Jimmy's legal career, because I didn't think it likely that it would be written in a believable fashion. I should not underestimate Gilligan and Co.. It was masterful, the revelation that Chuck, brilliant lawyer that he is, is consumed with a petty credentialism, even directing it at his own dutiful brother, who has given over a chunk of his life to help Chuck manage his illness. In other words, Chuck is complex human being, with all the good and bad it entails. It goes without saying that Jimmy is as well, and this is great, great, writing.

 

With regard to the ethics and/or business judgement contained in Chuck's actions, that is complex as well. It certainly is a reasonable judgement that Jimmy's behavior as an adult, even as a practicing attorney, is such that Chuck has a duty to keep Jimmy out of HHM. What is unconscionable  is to not be forthright with Jimmy on this issue, as Jimmy develops a case that could eventually entail upper 7 figures, or even an 8 figure legal fee. The conversation Chuck had with Jimmy with regard to the duty to the clients, and how the clients need to have a firm with huge resources behind them, to effectively counter Sandpiper's deep pockets, was quite good, in terms of ethics, but if Chuck never intended to be supportive of Jimmy desire to work at HHM as a lawyer, then Chuck should have made it plain that Jimmy's relationship with HHM was going to be financial only, with regards to the Sandpiper case. Hell, Jimmy could have negotiated terms of the PR aspects of the lawsuit, to ensure that he was given credit for instigating the case. In other words, everybody could have acted like adults doing business, who keep foremost in mind their duty to the clients.

 

With regard to the business judgement of Chuck keeping Jimmy out, that really isn't a slam dunk good decision. The list of attorneys who have engaged in more ethically challenged behaviors than Jimmy, but have been tolerated by their high-powered firms, because the attorney could really shake the trees, is pretty long. Attorneys who have a nose for big lawsuits, and a pronounced acumen  for ingratiating themselves with the potential clients who can bring them, are pretty rare. It is just as reasonable to conclude that, to use Howard's term for Jimmy. a Charely Hustle, working under close supervision of an experienced partner,  could be a gold mine for the firm. Doing that, however, would mean that Chuck would have to renounce his snobbery, pettiness, and resentement for having bailed Jimmy out for so long. Maybe Chuck shoulda' had a moment of honest self assessment, and admitted that Jimmy was now bailing him out. Then again, maybe Chuck knows this very well, and it simply aggravates his pettiness. 

Edited April 6, 2015 by Bannon

[lucindabelle]

. The conversation Chuck had with Jimmy with regard to the duty to the clients, and how the clients need to have a firm with huge resources behind them, to effectively counter Sandpiper's deep pockets, was quite good, in terms of ethics, but if Chuck never intended to be supportive of Jimmy desire to work at HHM as a lawyer, then Chuck should have made it plain that Jimmy's relationship with HHM was going to be financial only, with regards to the Sandpiper case. Hell, Jimmy could have negotiated terms of the PR aspects of the lawsuit, to ensure that he was given credit for instigating the case. In other words, everybody could have acted like adults doing business, who keep foremost in mind their duty to the clients.

 

With regard to the business judgement of Chuck keeping Jimmy out, that really isn't a slam dunk good decision. The list of attorneys who have engaged in more ethically challenged behaviors than Jimmy, but have been tolerated by their high-powered firms, because the attorney could really shake the trees, is pretty long. Attorneys who have a nose for big lawsuits, and a pronounced acumen  for ingratiating themselves with the potential clients who can bring them, are pretty rare. It is just as reasonable to conclude that, to use Howard's term for Jimmy. a Charely Hustle, working under close supervision of an experienced partner,  could be a gold mine for the firm. Doing that, however, would mean that Chuck would have to renounce his snobbery, pettiness, and resentement for having bailed Jimmy out for so long. Maybe Chuck shoulda' had a moment of honest self assessment, and admitted that Jimmy was now bailing him out. Then again, maybe Chuck knows this very well, and it simply aggravates his pettiness. 

 

What a great assessment. So absolutely true.

 

The blindsiding and deception are inexcusable. NO amount of "Jimmy's a criminal" etc. excuses Chuck's deceit and pettiness. Even if you think he's right, and i don't, there's nothing right about bringing him in to a meeting and humiliating him, blindsiding him, lying about him. On a personal level, it's much, much worse than anything we've ever seen Jimmy do to Chuck, or to anybody else. We've never seen Jimmy deliberately hurt someone's feelings. For me it's obvious that Chuck is a much worse human being.

 

And thanks for that assessment of lawyers and firms. That's also what I've heard from my brother the litigator.

[ShadowFacts]

 

The blindsiding and deception are inexcusable. NO amount of "Jimmy's a criminal" etc. excuses Chuck's deceit and pettiness. Even if you think he's right, and i don't, there's nothing right about bringing him in to a meeting and humiliating him, blindsiding him, lying about him.

 

That was so, so bad, so low and just shows what a blackhearted person Chuck is.  What kind of person could sit and watch their brother go through that, and then come down the stairs whistling the next morning? 

[Bannon]

What a great assessment. So absolutely true.

 

The blindsiding and deception are inexcusable. NO amount of "Jimmy's a criminal" etc. excuses Chuck's deceit and pettiness. Even if you think he's right, and i don't, there's nothing right about bringing him in to a meeting and humiliating him, blindsiding him, lying about him. On a personal level, it's much, much worse than anything we've ever seen Jimmy do to Chuck, or to anybody else. We've never seen Jimmy deliberately hurt someone's feelings. For me it's obvious that Chuck is a much worse human being.

 

And thanks for that assessment of lawyers and firms. That's also what I've heard from my brother the litigator.

This is what law firms and sales organizations have in common. Employees who are really, really, really good at making it rain, are very, very, very, rare, and very, very, very, valuable.Thus, employees who are able to do so are given a great deal of leeway with regard to their ethics. A guy who is making upper management very wealthy gets away with stuff that an average earner gets terminated for.

[lucindabelle]

This is what law firms and sales organizations have in common. Employees who are really, really, really good at making it rain, are very, very, very, rare, and very, very, very, valuable.Thus, employees who are able to do so are given a great deal of leeway with regard to their ethics. A guy who is making upper management very wealthy gets away with stuff that an average earner gets terminated for.

That makes so much sense. Because to do that you need to have real creativity, real ability to "think outside the box," and the ability to make people like and trust you. All of which Jimmy has.

And Chuck doesn't.

Which makes Chuck jealous and actually despise him. And behave in a cowardly, self-interested way.

Chuck thinks he's "better" but his personal ethics are worse.

[Bannon]

That makes so much sense. Because to do that you need to have real creativity, real ability to "think outside the box," and the ability to make people like and trust you. All of which Jimmy has.

And Chuck doesn't.

Which makes Chuck jealous and actually despise him. And behave in a cowardly, self-interested way.

Chuck thinks he's "better" but his personal ethics are worse.

Chuck is like many brilliant people, and make no mistake, Chuck is a brilliant lawyer, in that he finds it vexing that there are other types of talent which are extremely valuable, which he does not have in spades. Thus the "real lawyer" nonsense.

[Bannon]

My feeling on watching it was Hamlin spoke so angrily to Kim because he was sick of the charade and having to be questioned and was instantly sorry he went off on her.  From that I assumed he told all.  He might have made her promise not to tell Jimmy, and she would honor that because a) she doesn't want to be the one to break his heart, and b) she has to play ball at HHM because they paid her law school, etc. etc.

Ya' know, it wouldn't be bad writing to go further in this direction, showing that the anti-Jimmy stuff from Howard has mostly stemmed from Chuck's insistence, and showing how Howard really has resented being pushed in that direction by Chuck. Making Howard more sympathetic opens up possibilities with the dynamic with Kim and Jimmy, which could have real payoffs. This is why talented writers are any show's greatest asset.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Bannon

[ToastnBacon]

We know that Chuck has Hamlin over a barrel in regards to the fate of the firm if he ever decides to leave it. Paying Chuck for his share of the partnership would leave HHM insolvent.

We also know that Jimmy has tried to get Chuck to "cash in" his portion of the firm more than once. Jimmy even went to a meeting at HHM (behind Chuck's back) and claimed that Chuck wanted to quit the firm in episode one.

We also found out that Hamlin and Chuck do talk to each other because Hamlin visits Chuck's house.

I think it is safe to assume that there is a lot of underlying tension in the Chuck-Hamlin relationship.

However, Hamlin would be going out on a very shaky limb by telling Kim everything. It could easily get back to Chuck that he told.

As it happened, Jimmy found out on his own.

I think we could be missing a very big piece of information on what was said to Kim in Hamlin's office. Is there more than one secret at play?

I sure hope we find out tonight.

[ToastnBacon]

A quick question about the opening scene in Pimento.

Chuck and Jimmy are sitting on a park bench, across the park we see the partial exterior of a white stucco house with an adobe brick roof.

Was that Jesse's aunt's house?

I noticed the camera dwelled on it twice, and I thought it might be it, but I forgot about it till now.

I went back and watched it again, but I'm not sure. Did anyone else notice that?

[ShadowFacts]

 

I think we could be missing a very big piece of information on what was said to Kim in Hamlin's office. Is there more than one secret at play?

 

I think it's a very safe bet that there is an as yet unknown piece or two to the puzzle both with Kim/HHM, and Chuck and Jimmy's Chicagoland days.  One thing I wonder about is what brought Chuck to New Mexico?  As to Kim, she is not an incidental player;  for good or for ill, I think these writers have a little more in mind for her than just supportive friend.  I'm sure we'll get a gut punch or two tonight.  What I'm really curious about is if Kim and Chuck will be back next year, or will the new season be Chapter 2 of Saul's evolution with both of them left behind (or 6 feet under).

[ghoulina]

My thought on this is that Chuck thinks so little of Jimmy that he was sure he would just go for what was offered, take the money and run.

 

I definitely think he thought that. I assume that's what he and Howard discussed. And Howard seemed completely baffled that Jimmy didn't just want the deal. He said, "It's easy money!" - like he couldn't believe Jimmy would want to work his own case, more than walk away with all that money. 

[ghoulina]

I think that Kim's private talk with Harry was more about getting her to talk Saul into giving up the case then it was about letting  her know about Chuck's role in the Jimmy situation.  Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't tell her anything about that at all.

 

I don't think Hamlin WOULD have been able to get Kim to try and talk Jimmy into giving up the case if he HADN'T told her about Chuck. And when she was trying to convince him, she had tears in her eyes. To me, it was obvious she felt very sorry for him (not in a pitiful way, but a "this is truly shitty" way), but she couldn't say more. 

[Umbelina]

No, I'm watching Kim talk to Jimmy right now, and her heart is broken.  Hamlin definitely told her (or she's the worst actress with the worst director in history.) 

 

Her sadness, followed immediately by that asshole Chuck whistling cheerfully?  Gut punch.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Umbelina

[Hanahope]

As a founding partner at the firm, Chuck is obligated to make sound business decisions. That would include not hiring a lawyer that he knows has a history of breaking the law, even if it is his own brother.

Jimmy couldn't do any real damage to the firm in the mail room, so Chuck is ok with him being there.

 

 

It sure seemed like Jimmy hadn't committed any crimes since he began working for HHM, plus Chuck knows that Jimmy has worked extra hard to study for and pass the bar exam.  If we presume everyone who has ever committed a crime is always going to commit another crime, then why even bother with the idea of rehabilitation? 

 

And its certainly possible to "do damage" in a mail room.  Simply not delivering and/or destroying mail that comes into the office.  That could cause an attorney to miss a court appearance, fail to answer a complaint or respond to Requests for Admission, which can torpedo a case.

 

 

So, maybe he's not a real lawyer because he's...not a real lawyer. He doesn't have the credentials required to be a lawyer.

 

If Chuck really believed this, all he'd have to do is report Jimmy to the State disciplinary board, who would revoke his license.  Apparently the writers are assuming one can take the bar with only on-line courses.

 

I don't think Chuck ever thought Jimmy could be a good lawyer, and that the only people he was 'worthy' of representing were penniless defendants.  That's why Chuck kept telling Jimmy to keep doing the $700 PD work.  Chuck wasn't a snob just for attorneys, but also for clients.  Note that Chuck never really gave much support to Jimmy's elder law idea, at least until he came up with a real big case.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Apparently the writers are assuming one can take the bar with only on-line courses.

In the states that allow you to apprentice instead of graduating from an approved law school, would any back then have allowed a remote apprenticeship?

[pasdetrois]

Virginia still allows people to "read for the law" instead of formal law school.

[Ohwell]

Yeah, that was discussed upthread about Virginia.

[haydensterling]

Just did a rewatch and was struck at how all the 'good' guys are actively encouraging Jimmy to break bad in this episode by telling him to do what he clearly does not want to do.  Hamlin, Kim, and Chuck all tell him repeatedly to 'take the money'.

 

With moral compasses like these, I can see how Jimmy's fall would come about.  If the people you look up to are telling you that it doesn't matter what you do, take the money and run?  Yeah, I might come out of that a little bit fucked up too.

[Anela]

Wow. How long has he been taking care of his brother, and he does that to him? That’s cold.