S05.E15: Try

[VLove]

Rick is batshit crazy but I am upset at Carol for winding him up and watching him go - with a smile on her face.  She wants to hide in plain sight but suggest Rick go kill someone?  Carol, boo boo, I know you have a history of marital violence, but I expect better from you.

 

That being said, someone get Rick a copy of the Art of War, STAT!

 

"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."

 

"Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory: (1) He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight,  (2) He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces, (3) He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks, (4) He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared, (5) He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign"

 

"Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent’s fate."

 

And on, and on.  I mean, there has GOT to be a library in ASZ, right?

 

Also: MICHONNE, THE GAWD!

 

 

[diebartdie]

There are so many things bugging me about the abuse storyline. Main thing I guess is why would Jessie keep putting up with Pete anyway? I mean look, in the real world, abused people stay with their abusers all the time, I know that. Usually they do so because they are quite literally trapped. Their abuser has done a number on their minds, gas lit them so many times they believe the bullshit completely. They live in a world (our world, right now) with little to no support for them, a world that constantly blares at them that they are worthless without their man (if straight) or worthless in general (if gay, disabled, poc, elderly, poor). Abused people right now stay in that misery because they have to.

 

Jessie really doesnt have to worry about all that. I'm giving her a tiny bit of benefit of the doubt in that Pete has most likely done a number on her mind and for a long time BUT still and all, right now they are living in a world where "everything is free", a world with great promise and opportunity if you think about it. Sure there are zeds everywhere but that's just an opportunity for her to learn skills like shooting, trapping, concealment.

 

As a trained healer, Pete is super valuable, even as a drunkard. However, EVERY living human being is super valuable, even people with certain disabilities. I have a dear friend who is wheelchair bound, dont you reckon she would be awesome patrolling the inside perimeter of ASZ? Damn place has paved walkways everywhere. My point is, Jessie does NOT act like Carol did. It was SO freeking obvious Ed was abusing her and Sophia, they cowered, they avoided much eye contact, they spoke in soft tones. Jessie meanwhile is all HEY! Let me cut your hair! Bring your kid to play with mine in my house! Hey I make art that is very loud when it falls over! Hey! Look at me! HEY! HEY! HEY!!!!

 

I guess some abused people might act like that irl but tv works in obvious tropes so in that regard, Jessie does not come across as someone who is living in a torture chamber. I hate this storyline. Edit because wtf Carol, if Pete (and the Ghost of Ed living in your mind) gets up your nose that damn bad, POISON HIM.

Edited March 23, 2015 by diebartdie

[kikismom]

That being said, someone get Rick a copy of the Art of War, STAT!

Sun Tzu never had to fight zombies though.

[kj4ever]

There are so many things bugging me about the abuse storyline. Main thing I guess is why would Jessie keep putting up with Pete anyway? I mean look, in the real world, abused people stay with their abusers all the time, I know that. Usually they do so because they are quite literally trapped. Their abuser has done a number on their minds, gas lit them so many times they believe the bullshit completely. They live in a world (our world, right now) with little to no support for them, a world that constantly blares at them that they are worthless without their man (if straight) or worthless in general (if gay, disabled, poc, elderly, poor). Abused people right now stay in that misery because they have to.

 

Jessie really doesnt have to worry about all that. I'm giving her a tiny bit of benefit of the doubt in that Pete has most likely done a number on her mind and for a long time BUT still and all, right now they are living in a world where "everything is free", a world with great promise and opportunity if you think about it. Sure there are zeds everywhere but that's just an opportunity for her to learn skills like shooting, trapping, concealment.

 

As a trained healer, Pete is super valuable, even as a drunkard. However, EVERY living human being is super valuable, even people with certain disabilities. I have a dear friend who is wheelchair bound, dont you reckon she would be awesome patrolling the inside perimeter of ASZ? Damn place has paved walkways everywhere. My point is, Jessie does NOT act like Carol did. It was SO freeking obvious Ed was abusing her and Sophia, they cowered, they avoided much eye contact, they spoke in soft tones. Jessie meanwhile is all HEY! Let me cut your hair! Bring your kid to play with mine in my house! Hey I make art that is very loud when it falls over! Hey! Look at me! HEY! HEY! HEY!!!!

 

I guess some abused people might act like that irl but tv works in obvious tropes so in that regard, Jessie does not come across as someone who is living in a torture chamber. I hate this storyline. Edit because wtf Carol, if Pete (and the Ghost of Ed living in your mind) gets up your nose that damn bad, POISON HIM.

I most people with kids would not want to be alone in the ZA, and you are talking about a woman who lives in a place where everyone more then likely knows she's getting the shit kicked out of her (and possibly her children) and they just don't care.  It is hard for people to leave an abuser normally, but imagine having that on your plate too.  Pete doesn't exactly seem like he'd "let"her leave, and she's got to know they peeps won't side with her if she tried. 

 

Maybe that's why she sought out a friendship with Rick.  Perhaps his group would be on her side.

[Anakerie]

Michonne "NOPING" Rick is one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. I pictured everyone lined up behind her like that scene from Airplane, each holding various weapons. Including little Judith with a baseball bat.

[peach]

It's just weird how the character of everyone in this new world is being tested and changed in regards to violence against their fellow man, but somehow all social arrangements are still exactly the same?  While death is around every corner?  Don't you get some kind of "biological imperative" pass?  Once Rick rolled into town, I'd probably give myself a citizen's divorce, and Ima have some of that Rick Grimes before my future grisly death is visited upon me.  Oh, and he can kill that guy that knocks me unconscious, too. 

[AndySmith]

Carol for winding him up and watching him go - with a smile on her face.

 

I must have missed the smiling part.

[diebartdie]

Im saying all Jessie had to do was get up, take her children's hands and WALK OUT THE DOOR. There are PLENTY empty houses where they are, she doesn't need to "hit the road" and go all feral like Rick, just go live on the other side of the community and become her true self. If Pete starts up his shit, make it so public Deanna HAS to do something about it! The ONLY reason Pete was getting away with it was because it was kept inside, kept quiet, like IRL. No reason for that, no reason to protect Pete and Pete's reputation.

[paigow]

It would be an interesting twist if Pete is NOT bio-dad.

[maczero]

It is not about it being difficult, but about it being effective. Dr Drunk has power because he has a very valuable skill, and he is an asshole so he might very well refuse to help people if they mess with him. That is a big risk to take considering all the dangers they are exposed to, specially when they go outside. Imagine Tara arriving with her head split open and DD refusing to help. What would they do then? Torture him to get him to help her? Deanna doesn't have the guts and it might still not work.

 

It is a tricky situation.

Basically, it's extortion.  If Deanna continues to put up with it then she's not going to have a community much longer.  Imagine if she looked the other way on the misdeeds of others.  For instance, let's say a couple of the construction guys beat their wives.  I can see them threatening not to work if they're called out on it.  Deanna needs to take a stand on Pete's behavior or it just sets a precedence of "you can get away with almost anything if you're perceived as valuable".

 

Also, shut Deanna. Maybe if you hadn't raised your son to be a cocky, spoiled, asshole he wouldn't be dead. Doesn't she seem like the type who probably helped Aidan out of several scrapes, quick to never admit her baby did something wrong?

I don't think that's present day Deanna.  She acknowledged that her son deserved the punch that Glenn gave him.  Also, she clearly doesn't baby him because she allows him to take on dangerous tasks such as going on runs.

 

Hershel did not "stay" with Rick and his people. Rick saved Hershel from a walker and then helped him escape the herd. Hershel and his daughters would have been dead that night at the farm without Rick and his people.

 

I swear, sometimes I feel like I am the only person here who actually remembers what happened on this show in the past seasons.

One could also say that Hershel, his family and his farm would still be here if he had never met Rick's group.  Otis was killed by Shane.  Carl fired the shot that drew a horde of walkers that led to the death of two members of Hershel's family and the loss of his farm.

 

Since Rick believed that death was the solution to the Pete problem and he believed that these people are too weak to really deal with tough problems, he should have just taking Pete somewhere and killed him. 

 

This tells me that Rick is not that crazy or is all about killing to solve the problem. This tell me that Rick is still struggling with his RickTator side, the old Rick is still in him because him going to Deanna and Jessie, instead of just coming up with a plan, execute it and be done with Pete, shows that he wanted to do the right thing. He was looking for another solution, despite believing that kill Pete was the best solution.

 

Also, why did Carol bring this to Rick instead of just doing the job herself ? Carol is totally capable of doing the job herself without Rick's input and without people finding out that she did it. I mean she did before.  

I think Carol realizes that offing people without any kind of consensus puts others on edge.  I mean, I'd be scared to cough around her after what she did to Karen and David.

 

I too hate that Rick said (when talking to Jessie about Pete) that he wouldn't do it for anyone else. And now I know how I feel about Jessie. I don't like her. She played Pete and Rick like Lori played Rick and Shane. Her words said leave it alone, go away, I can take care of myself .. but her eyes and actions said different. As soon as he said no, only her he would do it for, she knew she had crazy-guy wrapped. Thus why she spoke right up when Pete entered and she told him to leave. Because Rick was standing right there! She could have told Rick to leave instead and given the husband some bullshit story about why Rick was there and then taken some time to think things over and come up with a plan. But no, instead of defusing the situation she lit the fuse by trying to give Pete the boot right then, in front of Rick, knowing full well it would erupt into an opportunity for Rick to kill Pete. 

Her idea of taking care of herself seems to be letting another man take care of her.  Like Lori. 

I didn't see it nearly as sinister as what you're suggesting.  If Pete beats her regularly over what I'm guessing are minor things, how do you think he's going to handle her telling him to get out?  It seems like she made the smart call to ask him to leave while she had someone there to protect her just in case things got violent.  

 

Pacing seems to be the number 1 issue of this show.   People complain when the plot moves too fast and also complain when it moves too slow.  It seems like in the all the seasons since the first one, they've never managed to please anyone with the pacing.  

I agree.  If they devoted more eps to Alexandria and tried to develop a more realistic build up between Rick, Jessie & Pete, I can see a lot fans complaining that this is Hershel's farm storyline again.  Slow not much happening.

 

Instead we get this soap opera bullshit with Rick and teen romance with Carl. Rick is the worst leader ever. This latest freak out has me hating the character. Noah is dead, Tara seriously hurt and Glen barely survived. His family and yet he is like a dog in heat chasing after some stupid chick he just met? Why is this guy still in charge? He fucked up at the prison, Carol saved their asses at Terminus and he got Beth killed at the hospital.

To be fair, Beth got herself killed.  She chose to stab someone who was armed with a gun.  Hell, she didn't even go for a vital area.

 

But if the ASZhats are so bad, why don't Rick and anyone else who wants to follow him--get the fuck out of town? 

 

Yes. 

Simple.  Rick knows it's easier to take what's already there rather than look for something similar or try to build it yourself. 

 

I really don't get why people think Jessie has to look like a Victoria Secret model, have the brains of Einstein and Amelia Earhart type of adventures to share to be the object of someone's love at first sight. My boyfriend is no Daniel Craig (my free pass), he has a good hard working blue collar job (nothing exciting), a regular car (I think it's a 10 year old Toyota) and nice house on a corner lot that he remodeled all by his self. But the first time he sat across from me and smiled I thought "I'm in trouble" Perhaps when Rick opened that door he saw a Victoria Secret model with the brains of Einstein and interesting stories to tell.

I don't even think it's love.  She's attractive, clean, probably smells good, ran her fingers through his hair and is good with kids.  I think he just misses these things from his pre-apocalypse marriage.

 

What is a prepper?

A person who prepares for emergencies, natural disasters or even the zombie apocalypse.

[kikismom]

If you watch the garage scene, you will see a large tank in the corner by the wall. It might be helium.

 

 

. Main thing I guess is why would Jessie keep putting up with Pete anyway? I mean look, in the real world, abused people stay with their abusers all the time, I know that. Usually they do so because they are quite literally trapped. Their abuser has done a number on their minds, gas lit them so many times they believe the bullshit completely. They live in a world (our world, right now) with little to no support for them, a world that constantly blares at them that they are worthless without their man (if straight) or worthless in general (if gay, disabled, poc, elderly, poor). Abused people right now stay in that misery because they have to.

 

Jessie really doesnt have to worry about all that. I'm giving her a tiny bit of benefit of the doubt in that Pete has most likely done a number on her mind and for a long time BUT still and all, right now they are living in a world where "everything is free", a world with great promise and opportunity if you think about it. Sure there are zeds everywhere but that's just an opportunity for her to learn skills like shooting, trapping, concealment.

 

As a trained healer, Pete is super valuable, even as a drunkard. However, EVERY living human being is super valuable, even people with certain disabilities. I have a dear friend who is wheelchair bound, dont you reckon she would be awesome patrolling the inside perimeter of ASZ? Damn place has paved walkways everywhere. My point is, Jessie does NOT act like Carol did. It was SO freeking obvious Ed was abusing her and Sophia, they cowered, they avoided much eye contact, they spoke in soft tones. Jessie meanwhile is all HEY! Let me cut your hair! Bring your kid to play with mine in my house! Hey I make art that is very loud when it falls over! Hey! Look at me! HEY! HEY! HEY!!!!

• A world of great promise and opportunity. I do not think any place in the world in a ZA would be fitting that description. But that's just my opinion.
• I don't think a drunkard is super valuable as a trained healer. He wouldn't even be able to drive a car, would he? I don't think I'd let him carve a Thanksgiving turkey with an electric carving knife and it's already dead!
• Every human being, IMHO, is not super valuable. The cannibals at Terminus, the fat slob who tried to rape Carl, so forth. Some people need to be dead people.
• Did you really hear Jessie shouting HEY!?

Why would someone yell HEY I make art that is very loud when it falls over? I know that was sarcasm, but HEY look at me? I really don't think Rick needed her to yell at him for him to be looking. I missed the bit with her being loud and yelling HEY!

[diebartdie]

It's just weird how the character of everyone in this new world is being tested and changed in regards to violence against their fellow man, but somehow all social arrangements are still exactly the same?  While death is around every corner?  Don't you get some kind of "biological imperative" pass?  Once Rick rolled into town, I'd probably give myself a citizen's divorce, and Ima have some of that Rick Grimes before my future grisly death is visited upon me.  Oh, and he can kill that guy that knocks me unconscious, too. 

Damn Im being such a piggy with my responses today but anyway, lord knows I have stated many times I dont believe people would really be going for the whole monogamous "ideal" anymore and everybody (ESPECIALLY clean, well fed and watered people) would be doing it as often as possible with as many different people as possible. Tara + Maggie + Glenn, why not? Abe + Eugene, why not? Darryl + Glenn + Carol + Rosita, why not and can I watch please? The ZA has already shown them that anybody can be a superhero! Carol with the siege of Terminus, Michonne with her katana and zombie pets, Eugene with his ability to completely pull the wool over everyone's eyes, they live in a WIDE OPEN WORLD, there are no more templates of "girls look/act/feel like this and do this, boys look/act/feel like this other stuff and do these other things and any deviation must be squashed" it's just short sighted story telling and it betrays a level of cowardice that just sucks really. If you want to create that world and explore it, then EXPLORE it, dont just make it be same old same old.

[kikismom]

Im saying all Jessie had to do was get up, take her children's hands and WALK OUT THE DOOR. There are PLENTY empty houses where they are, she doesn't need to "hit the road" and go all feral like Rick, just go live on the other side of the community and become her true self. If Pete starts up his shit, make it so public Deanna HAS to do something about it! The ONLY reason Pete was getting away with it was because it was kept inside, kept quiet, like IRL. No reason for that, no reason to protect Pete and Pete's reputation.

Where did they say there were PLENTY empty houses? If that is true, why did 15 people get assigned to 2 houses? ASZ is only 2 streets or something and people are not even able to get walls finished around that.

 

In our real world, we all know what happens when abused women leave their husband or boyfriend?

Now she's in a walled community that has only 45 people, and her husband isn't going to find her?

He isn't going to come to another place to confront her?

It wasn't kept quiet, people know. The guy is staggering around the neighborhood night and day slurring and leaning in your faces to breathe fumes, they at least know he's an alky.

To say make it so public if he starts up his abuser shit again and Deanna will have to do something about it? That's like a restraining order---something will get done after it's violated, at which point the woman may have her head bashed in.

[missy jo]

So, the ASZs aren't prepared and are far from perfect. At least they aren't eating people. Keep repeating that Rick. And I know I'm in the minority here, but I don't see how Rick's group has fared any better than the ASZ's. Rick and his group were starving, filthy and lost lots of people. So, yeah, Deanna's group needs to learn how to fight. But teach them and slowly acclimate them to the feral way of being. I refuse to see how living in the woods makes you superior to people who have showers, food, ammo and warm beds.

 

This story arc could have been about the groups learning from each other and then perhaps some dissension within. Instead we are supposed to think Deanna's group is stupid because they are not dying and/or starving in the woods somewhere, and I think they are doing just fine. Look at all the ammo they have. It's true that they don't save each other in a crisis, but since someone in Rick's groups dies almost weekly, they don't do that good a job of saving either.

 

 

Same here. I think Rick needs to put his children's welfare ahead of his (blood)lust. Judith's much better off in Alexandria than she was starving in the woods. When you look at their body count, I'm not sure CDB's superiority complex is entirely earned.

 

Some of it seems a bit contrived, such as Deanna only hearing Nicholas' side of the story about the run, and the Rick/Pete situation spiraling out of control when it could be sorted out other ways.

 

I have to believe that Pete's a competent surgeon, despite his problems; otherwise, he'd have been exiled already. And Jessie was still in denial "it'll get better" mode, so it's not like she was crying for help to the townspeople and they were ignoring her. This isn't Dr. Phil.

[diebartdie]

kikismom, you're right of course, roughly half the remaining humans ought to just off themselves for being terrible horrible no good humans. Claimer guys were just Darryl and Merl without the calming influence of Carol and Rick (for Darryl) and Phillip (for Merl) in other words, for the first time in their lives they wer shown respect so they figured out how to chill out and be productive.

 

Yes I do see that world as one full of promise, a clean slate for those brave enough to act on it in that way. No one seems to be trying to act on it like that though. Yes Jessie is super loud COMPARED to season one Carol. Season 1 Carol was being actively abused by Ed (who may have also been sexually abusing Sophia).

 

So we disagree on some stuff but you did shine a light on the one area where I would knock somoene down in my haste to kill, that being anyone who rapes or abuses children (I'd probably kill rapers of adults right quick too so yeah, everyone is not super valuable, hyperbole gets the better of me YET AGAIN!!!HEY! LOOK AT ME!! HEY!!!)

[cmfran]

Were Daryl and Aaron back by the time Rick's fight started? And were we to assume they'd been out all night on their search? I remember them spotting the light in the distance, then when we picked back up with them, it was daylight when they found the dismembered body and the disemboweled woman tied to the tree. If so, that's quite a big time jump.

[kikismom]

kikismom, you're right of course, roughly half the remaining humans ought to just off themselves for being terrible horrible no good humans. Claimer guys were just Darryl and Merl without the calming influence of Carol and Rick (for Darryl) and Phillip (for Merl) in other words, for the first time in their lives they wer shown respect so they figured out how to chill out and be productive.

 

Yes I do see that world as one full of promise, a clean slate for those brave enough to act on it in that way. No one seems to be trying to act on it like that though. Yes Jessie is super loud COMPARED to season one Carol. Season 1 Carol was being actively abused by Ed (who may have also been sexually abusing Sophia).

 

So we disagree on some stuff but you did shine a light on the one area where I would knock somoene down in my haste to kill, that being anyone who rapes or abuses children (I'd probably kill rapers of adults right quick too so yeah, everyone is not super valuable, hyperbole gets the better of me YET AGAIN!!!HEY! LOOK AT ME!! HEY!!!)

Hyperbole got you again! No one said half the population should off themselves.

Claimer guys weren't, IMHO, just Daryl and Merle. I can't forget the remarks about the real young girls not lasting long out here. Even Daryl said Merle wasn't a rapist and we know Daryl went thermonuclear at any mention of it.

I do think the calming influence of Rick and Carol showed Daryl how to chill out and be productive. Of course, if he was a pedophile they would have chilled him out permanent.

Phillip, the Governor, really didn't show Merle how to be productive----he took advantage of Merle's talent for being destructive. JMO!

 

I don't think half the population is that bad enough to kill. But maybe a third. A heaping third. :-)

Edited March 23, 2015 by kikismom

[maystone]

When Carol was relating to Rick what Sam had told her about his father, she mentioned one incident when Sam came out to find Jesse unconscious on the floor and Pete sitting on the porch. Immediately my mind went back to Rick's first encounter with ol' porchdick himself - sitting in the dark, smoking a cigarette. "I hear my wife gave you a haircut. Welcome to Alexandria." Except now I imagined Jesse in the room behind him, knocked out on the floor. It gave me the willies. Did anyone else have that reaction?

[Ohwell]

Simple.  Rick knows it's easier to take what's already there rather than look for something similar or try to build it yourself.

But maybe not.  He and the rest of CDB have to think about how to take it.  It might not be that simple.  Even if Deanna agreed to hand over leadership, for example, I doubt that everyone in Alexandria would agree to that (especially after witnessing his one man show).  I just don't see them saying "here ya go, Rick" which means he'd probably have to kill some people.  The remaining people might be subdued after that but there would be those who would be resentful and plotting to get revenge.  Would Rick and Co. want to live in an environment like that, always looking over their shoulders?  Or would they just kill everybody to be assured of safety?  (You know, like the Governor wanted to do?)  Even if they tried that, killing everybody, it might be easier said than done.  Those people might look lazy and cowardly, but if made to fight they might surprise Rick.  Look at what Drunk Doctor did to him.

 

I still say that the best thing for Rick and any of the other CDBers who don't like how ASZ is being run, is to clear out another nice town in Northern Virginia and set their own rules and live their own lives as they see fit.   Or, they can stay there, STFU, stop acting so superior, and try to work with the ASZhats regarding defenses for the place.    

Edited March 23, 2015 by Ohwell

[Pete Martell]

IIRC, Deanna claims to be good at reading people.  She knew her son needed help (thanking Glenn), so why doesn't she know or even suspect that Nicholas is a lying coward?  And why believe FPP without question? 

 

This interested me, because I do think she believed Nicholas over Glenn (I think on some level she almost has to, for her own mental stability), but she also made sure she didn't punish Glenn. Instead she tried to seem neutral, with only her private view (watching the interview with Nicholas) suggesting her true belief. 

 

I'm not sure she believed Gabriel without question, but the behavior of the group since that warning hasn't done much to prove him wrong. 

 

Angela Kang, who wrote this episode, made a lot of attempts in "Coda" to let us see Dawn's struggle with what was right vs what she had to do to maintain order. Most of that didn't work for me - I just kept thinking, "I don't care." In comparison, Deanna's struggle did work for me - this was the first episode where I actually felt like Deanna was a real person, between her grieving over Aiden, her uneasy balance of tolerating Pete's abuse of his wife and children, and her facing off with Rick toe-to-toe more than once, never letting him see her fear or doubt. 

 

There was one little detail here that got to me - when she was watching the interview with Nicholas, and you could hear her other hot son, Spencer, on the tape, saying, "Mom, what are you doing?" It was just so sad, because it showed a broken family and Deanna immersing, deluding herself.

[kikismom]

My little brain jumbled this all up and I pictured Eugene reading books to Judith. I liked that thought too.

" Hmmm, Good Night Moon...an abstract concept predicated, Judith, on social western assumptions failing to assimilate the factual parameters of lunar chronological cycles vis-a-vis space as having no subset of the paradigm of "Night" or "Day". Furthermore, the erroneous application of Judeo-Christian moral codes as evidenced by "good" as comparative with "bad" as non-possibilities for inanimate geological-" (Judith throws up, begins to cry.)

 

When Carol was relating to Rick what Sam had told her about his father, she mentioned one incident when Sam came out to find Jesse unconscious on the floor and Pete sitting on the porch. Immediately my mind went back to Rick's first encounter with ol' porchdick himself - sitting in the dark, smoking a cigarette. "I hear my wife gave you a haircut. Welcome to Alexandria." Except now I imagined Jesse in the room behind him, knocked out on the floor. It gave me the willies. Did anyone else have that reaction?

Yes.

Edited March 23, 2015 by kikismom

[maystone]

It seems to me that the W alkers are being herded toward Alexandria. A couple of posters have also said something similar, I think. Does anyone have a feel for how near (or far) Daryl and Aaron are from ASZ? It could be that they're actually fairly close if all they did was go about five miles out and then do a sweep in an arc around the perimeter. Or they could be two days out, too. It's frustrating not knowing. In any case, they are now following the herd that is (imo) being sent toward ASZ, so that should make a nice mash-up in the finale. I hope.

 

I have to admit that I was laughing a little at all of those people swanning about in the woods in that episode: Carl and Enid, Nicholas, and (the best group) Sasha, Michonne, and Rosita. Plus several dozen zombies. I would love to see it again in order to track the timeline and the herd. Were the ones that Sasha et al took out actually the same group that passed Carl and Enid?

Edited March 23, 2015 by maystone

[queenanne]

Not sure how Rick telling her that he would sit by and let any other battered woman continue to get beat adds reassurance to her that he would intervene on her behalf. He already offered to help her. Needing to know that he would only do it for her and not for some other poor woman who is being battered makes Jessie look horrible.

 

 

The problem with this story for me is that it rarely seems to be about a desperate, terrified woman suffering from abuse. It's about a generic dream woman Rick has to have, with a "connection" that must be there in order to justify Rick's obsession.

 

The idea that a woman is so terrified of being uprooted from her abusive home (which many abused wives go through, I realize) until she knows that he doesn't care about helping any abuse victim but her turns domestic violence into a popularity contest. And the scenario of two men literally fighting over her as she cried in the corner did the same. 

 

The show is treating domestic violence as a prom date. I think it's deplorable. And while I don't hate Jessie, I think having her only go with Rick if he said he didn't care about helping anyone else made her look awful.

 

Aha! 

 

OK, NOW i think I get it.

 

Jessie asked that question of Rick not because it was important to her to be the prettiest princess in the room; but rather, more because she feared that allying herself with this stranger, would make for a frying-pan-into-fire syndrome.  She doesn't know Rick.  She doesn't know if his quick-to-anger status makes him no better bet than Pete, the violent man she's already got.

 

That said, I think it would be a hard row to hoe for anyone to like any woman we "just met", practically speaking, as a Ricktator love interest; because considering how long Rick's been single and how long he's refused to consider any other woman or anything amatory, I think we'd have to see "her" as magic, even if there was nobody hoping for Richonne.

[morgankobi]

I have to admit that I was laughing a little at all of those people swanning about in the woods in that episode: Carl and Enid, Nicholas, and (the best group) Sasha, Michonne, and Rosita. Plus several dozen zombies. I would love to see it again in order to track the timeline and the herd. Were the ones that Sasho et al took out actually the same group that passed Carl and Enid?

Good question about the herd, I also wondered if they are the same ones.

 

For a suburb near a mall, there sure are a ton of thick, undeveloped woods around!

Edited March 23, 2015 by morgankobi

[Caelicola]

I think one of the ingredients of Rick's epic meltdown is that he's completely convinced that he's been right ever since Terminus. I think he's 100% confident that, if they had just gone back and killed all the Termites, Bob would be fine, and if they had just gone with his plan of sneaking into Grady and throat-slitting their way through, Beth would be ok. Rationally, even if the Termites hadn't eaten Bob's leg, he would have died anyway, and going into Grady with overt aggression could have ended even worse than it did, but I don't think he's operating on a rational level at all anymore.

I think he feels like the Cassandra of the group, and nobody listens to him, and then things go to shit. Now it's happening again, no one listens to his warnings, that to him are completely sensible and appropriate, and he just knows something's gonna go bad.

 

Add to that the fact that a kid from his group just got eaten alive directly because of one of these people, sprinkle on top a nice dose of irritation because he sees this douchebag just strutting his drunken ass around, with pretty much impunity because he's too valuable to punish, and mix in a dash of testosterone, because even super alpha male Abraham submitted to him after a brief scuffle, and this dick just won't.

Shake well until crazy.

Serve with a bite-sized chunk of human jugular.

[kikismom]

 I think we'd have to see "her" as magic, even if there was nobody hoping for Richonne.

Good post; I think though this is like what I had said when someone wondered how Carl could fall for Enid in a minute in a tree.

 

I said since all the girls his age have been killed, Enid---a live one---is like a miracle.

 

Now, all the women Rick's age are not dead.

But the existence of a woman in this world who is untouched by the disgusting world outside is magic.

 

In an apocalypse, magic is different than it would be in the Days Gone By of the old world.

 

This is what I don't think some viewers see---if Jessie had been part of CDB for the last few years, sweating and stinking and killing and eating dog and shitting in a ditch etc. I don't think he'd feel anything sexual.

 

If Michonne (or Maggie or Sasha) was the woman who was clean soft optimistic comforting smiling and not arguing with him about who to shoot, frisk, axe-murder or trying to get stinking frog water out of the dirt---if Michonne or Maggie or Sasha appeared smiling, smelling of soap, offering helpful things ,just being separate from the worst lowest state a human can live in---- that's who he'd be pursuing.

 

I really think that it Rick's mind it isn't about rejecting people he knows and Jessie having been the dream girl of his life. It's about escaping the shit that he had no chance to get away from...and feeling good to find a chance that doesn't remind him of it.

[Pete Martell]

This is what I don't think some viewers see---if Jessie had been part of CDB for the last few years, sweating and stinking and killing and eating dog and shitting in a ditch etc. I don't think he'd feel anything sexual.

 

I don't really know if viewers are all that shocked he finds her attractive. It's just that putting a stranger above everyone, including your children, telling her you would save her and never save anyone else - that goes far beyond just wanting her or desiring her. And the show is trying to dress it up as something romantic or touching as well, while simultaneously writing Rick's behavior as unhealthy. 

[Hava]

I think the domestic abuse storyline and the Rick/Jessie storyline (which I actually enjoyed before this episode) could have been interesting had they NOT intersected so obviously. To have Rick literally try to save Jessie was rather disgusting. Basing a "romance" on something as horrid as domestic violence is not sweet. I agree that their conversation in her house completely trivialized DV by making the DV the vehicle to cement how much Rick cares about Jessie. I really hope they give Jessie some agency and not just some damsel in distress who is going to go from an abuser to an unhinged man. 

 

DV comes in all variations and I do not think there is one way to expect victims to act. But I do wonder why we haven't seen any visible marks on Jessie? It is entirely possible that he's only hitting her on her legs or her back, but she wears sleeveless tops and I haven't seen anything on her arms or her face.

 

I, too, am wondering what the CDB members who are having problems with Alexandria want to do about it. If they're so itchy for the outside, does that mean that they don't want the comforts of Alexandria? Do they want to be back on the outside? I guess I'm just confused as to what they want.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Hava

[maplebrew]

On behalf of my ears, Deanna's husband, thank you for having the music turned off. 

 

Okay, onto business: 

* Rick was acting so twitchy at the Jesse/Pete residence, that you'd think Jesse, who doesn't know Rick, should be as scared of him as she would of Pete. We know Rick isn't a stalker, woman beating, rapey guy, but she doesn't know that. Jesse would just see a guy who is emotionally off kilter like Pete. At least Pete is the devil she knows unlike Rick. 

* I got nervous when Michonne went outside without the katana. Rosita pointing out that she was without her katana only made it worse for me.

* Sasha picking off zombies was a reasonably productive way of dealing with grief. Problem is that by taking on the herd, she was taking too big a chance. Seemed like she had a death wish of sorts going on - something else that had me nervous for all three of those women. 

* By Daryl standards, he was downright chatty with Aaron. Amazing how a plate of spaghetti and a motorcyle DIY kit will soften up Daryl so completely towards someone. 

* Glen is terrific with people 1:1. When Nicholas, I speculate, ends up a mess o' entrails, Glen can at least tell himself he tried. 

* I took Carol's semi-smile during the fight to be about supporting Rick in doing the right thing in her mind. Didn't take it as being the smile of the manipulative puppet master or that of someone getting off on the violence. Frankly, if I were Sam, hiding behind Carol (so long as she is not out to get you) is some smart defense strategy right there. 

* Not interested enough in Enid/Carl to comment. 

* Time for ASZ residents to elect Michonne "boss of us."

[queenanne]

 

I really think that it Rick's mind it isn't about rejecting people he knows and Jessie having been the dream girl of his life. It's about escaping the shit that he had no chance to get away from...and feeling good to find a chance that doesn't remind him of it.

 

That works, except now I feel sorry for Alexandra Breckinridge having to embody Archetype of All Womanhood.  :)  'Cuz I don't even root for Richonne, I'm not against it either, just the farther we got away from the setup, the more irate I started being on her behalf.  "Yeah, why not Michonne?!"

[Glaze Crazy]

I get the idea that Rick behind (safe) walls is not a good fit for Rick. He melted down inside the prison and basically retreated away from the whole situation, growing crops and raising pigs. Trying to get comfortable with the illusion of relative safety.  And the ZA still happened there with help from the Governor's group looking for "safety" for themselves. Rick trying to be diplomatic and then having to fight back is what really snapped him out of the funk he was in. I think he does want safety for his kids and the group but he hasn't made the connection that, for him, a safe place becomes more scary to him than being outside.

 

On the other side, the "safe" places are only that due to the positives and negatives of maintaining a community. Rules, procedures, hierarchy, consequences when members step over the lines. This is shown in every iteration of a community we've seen on this show. We see each one from the POV of Rick's group, where the different community's members have already established the status quo and are working within the parameters of it for their survival. We bring that outside view, like Rick's group, and can see some of the cracks in the process.

 

Deanna is a politician and basically a diplomat who wants to keep a civilized community in ASZ. Rick wants that too, to a point, but his way of communicating his concerns has either never been at Deanna's level, or he has lost the ability to be diplomatic since the ZA.

[Dodginblue]

It seems as though Deanna was more open to a tower watch than she was at first.  Rosita said something about Abraham had relieved Sasha so it's more than just Spencer doing duty up there.  I have to keep remembering that this isn't "24", that there are more days passing by than what we see in the show.  I also found it interesting that the only statement Deanna appears to have taped is the one from Nicholas, or at least that's the only one she was reviewing.   I couldn't tell if she was believing him or not.   I wish we could have seen more of the aftermath of all that, though.  

 

I also give her credit for not trying to act like she was okay.   I took the burning of the little card Carol left with the casserole as a sign of her anger about Aiden's death, that she wasn't interested in sympathy.    It's not necessarily rational and it can seem unfair to be negative about someone's kind gesture but I think it's close to reality.   I also think it might have been a sign that she's on to Carol, that she hasn't bought  her act.

 

  I think Sasha feels the same way in her grief (not about the Carol thing).  She's not interested in sympathy or help getting past it, she just wants to stay angry.  And now she feels guilty, about what she said to Noah.  So guilt and anger, a toxic combination.  

 

Seeing Enid and Carl frolicking in the woods, it seemed realistic to me, kids that age want to get out and explore and just be away from adult supervision.  And this is their reality, the woods have walkers in them so they deal with it.   Enid came prepared with her little sound maker and she's got the hollowed out tree to hide in.  It's wildly dangerous but I think this is what kids would do or try to do.

 

The scene with the woman disemboweled and tied to the tree reminded me of the opening to True Detective, the HBO series with Matthew McConaughey and Woody Harrelson.   There seems to be a serial killer out there.  Which is interesting in the world of the ZA.  Like there's not enough death already.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Dodginblue

[Elais]

I was just thinking about what constitutes 'normal' in Walking Dead

The world outside ASZ seems to be the %u2018normal%u2019 world for Rick. Rick is a guy who accepts himself as someone who can rip out a man%u2019s throat with his teeth and that this is a world where that is an acceptable way to react to a threat. This is what he sees as the 'normal' way of existing. To a certain extent the others share this view too.

Usually, the rest of the group tolerates or understands Ricks paranoia but not always. When Rick proposes some action that the others aren%u2019t willing to follow, it takes a couple of them to persuade Rick otherwise or simply ignore what he wants to do. I think when Rick punched Aaron, he was reacting to what he perceives a threat to this %u2018normal%u2019 existence, livid that Aaron is basically lying to them. It kind of takes a village to keep Rick%u2019s impulses in check.

Now Rick and the others are is in what appears on the surface to be the most normal place in the world, ASZ. Where folks walk their dogs and have cocktail parties. Rick can%u2019t reconcile this as %u2018normal%u2019 when he viewed their life before as normal. It took a lot to get Rick to even be willing to go into ASZ, and like the others, he suffers PSTD. Abraham suffered a bit of it before getting a bit of his old life back by taking out zombies and saving people. Michonne is still struggling with reconciling the 'before/after now. Sasha wants to go back to just killing walkers.

I think it is more subtle and severe as Rick can%u2019t handle this form of normal and I think wants to subconsciously go back to the outside, where he is on more familiar ground and knows what to do. But the others aren't exactly eager to follow, other than Carol and possible Daryl. The others are more willing to fight to stay in ASZ.

Peter showed himself as a possible threat to Rick almost as soon as he saw him. Unfortunately, there isn%u2019t anyone to really check Rick and his itchy trigger finger. Rick is on the edge already and then Carol tells Rick that Peter is a real threat.

I think Deanna%u2019s acceptance of Pete%u2019s behavior sends Rick over the edge. Deanna is not protecting the group like she should normally do, by killing or exiling Pete That unhinges Rick a bit more, in that he has to find a way to eliminate this threat, so he picks a fight with Peter, to %u2018prove%u2019 to the others that Peter and that they should have done the right thing.

[kikismom]

I was just thinking about what constitutes 'normal' in Walking Dead.

I think I liked this comment. Well, I liked *‘‘normal&%2019 percent of it.

Edited March 24, 2015 by kikismom

[kj4ever]

Back at Noah's old neighborhood did they actually see the "W"'s?  I know they saw the body parts, but I think when the heads fell out of the truck we the viewers were privy to the "W" but not the characters.  They were trying to get out of dodge and their car was stuck.

[missy jo]

.I really wish we had more time with Alexandria because too much of this story is being rushed and its such a shame because the bones of this story are great. The idea that CDB finds a "safe place" and struggles to fit in is a really interesting one but its so rushed that I have no idea how most of the group feels about it. There needed to be more time to tell this story.

 

 

I agree! I've been sooo curious about this community, how it works, and how our group is going to integrate (or not, apparently), that I'm bummed we only get/got a few episodes of it. I think what's going on here (minus the abuser SL) is more interesting than living on the run in the woods.

[BrokenRemote]

I loved this episode, how everything that's been building is coming together. The one thing I didn't like was Michonne clicking Rick at the end. They seem to calculate these 2-dimensional moments for Michonne that feel like nothing more than bait to make everyone say " Damn, Michonne was badass!"

It's like they use her as an icon or a cardboard cutout to insert into scenes for the sole purpose of eliciting that reaction, whether or not it makes sense in the scene. Robed, cloaked Michonne with her two walkers on chains, Michonne posing with her katana. Visual shorthand moments that don't really mean anything. They're almost like throw-away comic book panels. Michonne should be given more layers than being a rubber stamp for "this scene is meant to be badass".

I wonder if the walkers are amassing because of Sasha. Yes, she has a silencer, but there is still some noise. And there's lots of noise when you shoot picture frames. Add in Michonne's gun this episode and all the other noises they've all been making outside the walls...

[ghoulina]

Back at Noah's old neighborhood did they actually see the "W"'s?  I know they saw the body parts, but I think when the heads fell out of the truck we the viewers were privy to the "W" but not the characters.  They were trying to get out of dodge and their car was stuck.

 

Now that you mention that, I think you may be right, and we were the only ones who saw the walker heads. I need to rewatch.

[Dodginblue]

It seems to me that the W alkers are being herded toward Alexandria. A couple of posters have also said something similar, I think. Does anyone have a feel for how near (or far) Daryl and Aaron are from ASZ? It could be that they're actually fairly close if all they did was go about five miles out and then do a sweep in an arc around the perimeter. Or they could be two days out, too. It's frustrating not knowing. In any case, they are now following the herd that is (imo) being sent toward ASZ, so that should make a nice mash-up in the finale. I hope.

 

I have to admit that I was laughing a little at all of those people swanning about in the woods in that episode: Carl and Enid, Nicholas, and (the best group) Sasha, Michonne, and Rosita. Plus several dozen zombies. I would love to see it again in order to track the timeline and the herd. Were the ones that Sasha et al took out actually the same group that passed Carl and Enid?

 

I found what was going on in the woods pretty interesting, too, including with the ones you've mentioned, Aaron and Daryl as well.  I loved the interaction between the women, Sasha, Michonne and Rosita.   First of all, they are so cool, just truly strong beautiful women and if you're going to have any chance of rebuilding a community in the ZA these are the kind of women you need.  Even with Sasha messed up right now.   I find their stories so much more compelling than Jessie.  Which is maybe more to do do with the writing than anything else.  

[Hava]

I agree! I've been sooo curious about this community, how it works, and how our group is going to integrate (or not, apparently), that I'm bummed we only get/got a few episodes of it. I think what's going on here (minus the abuser SL) is more interesting than living on the run in the woods.

 

I'm REALLY hoping that we're not done with Alexandria after the season finale. Whatever happens in the finale, I hope Alexandria is still a part of it. Like you said, the show can still be interesting even if the characters are not on the run.

[Dodginblue]

I loved this episode, how everything that's been building is coming together. The one thing I didn't like was Michonne clicking Rick at the end. They seem to calculate these 2-dimensional moments for Michonne that feel like nothing more than bait to make everyone say " Damn, Michonne was badass!"

It's like they use her as an icon or a cardboard cutout to insert into scenes for the sole purpose of eliciting that reaction, whether or not it makes sense in the scene. Robed, cloaked Michonne with her two walkers on chains, Michonne posing with her katana. Visual shorthand moments that don't really mean anything. They're almost like throw-away comic book panels. Michonne should be given more layers than being a rubber stamp for "this scene is meant to be badass".

I wonder if the walkers are amassing because of Sasha. Yes, she has a silencer, but there is still some noise. And there's lots of noise when you shoot picture frames. Add in Michonne's gun this episode and all the other noises they've all been making outside the walls...

I didn't take the Michonne scenes as just showing her being a badass.  I think Michonne has a lot going on in her head and the actress playing her does a phenomenal job communicating that, like the scene in the bedroom with the laundry basket and her staring at it and then going over a pulling her clothes for the day out and tossing them on the bed.  And I found it interesting that Rosita came to her about Sasha.  I don't think the group sees her as the resident badass, I think they see her as the capable one, the one who keeps her cool, who can be counted on.  She'd be the one I'd go to as well.  

[catrox14]

I don't think Carol wants revenge on Rick. I think she's scared for Sam (and I guess Jessie), but I think much of her behavior is also about righting a wrong she never got to right in her own life. She never got to leave Ed. He was killed by walkers. He would have continued beating her otherwise. She never got to save Sophia. This is her second chance.

 

I'm starting to think ASZ is a big psychological experiment. Or because the walls are there keeping out the monsters, CDBers can no longer compartmentalize their own issues because of the crisis at hand.

 

I have a hard time believing Carol is so invested in Sam's safety when she threatened to tie up to a tree and leave for Walkers. I don't doubt for a minute she meant what she said to him. She killed Lizzie.

 

I think Carol is acting out her own issues with DV and her own inability to leave Ed. She didn't have someone championing for her welfare when she was with Ed.  So she is using Jessie and Rick as her avatars so to speak.

 

I think Rick is working out his Lori issues because he couldn't save her from being zombie chow.

[chlban]

I will protect you with my very life!

Ok, so I've read through 9 pages about this episode, knowing there would be so much Whaaaa Jessie is boring crap and I seem to be the only person who thinks Enid is not only creepy, but dangerous. No one else gets the feeling that that kid is BAD NEWS?

[BetyBee]

I love the way Reg called out, "Deanna!" for her to come break up the fight.  He's such a wimp!

[Timetoread]

Loved Michonne knocking crazy Rick out.  I actually disagree with him and I kind of hate how, in tv shows and movies, characters leave out important information so that the other side looks bad for not understanding where they are coming from.  Perhaps if Rick told Deanna that this very group had set up a lovely community themselves (with children, elderly, farming, a doctor, a veterinarian, and government) in the prison but that on three separate occasions they were attacked by a human enemy.  Two of those times by someone who had been shown mercy and was "exiled" only to come back and kill loved ones.  Or about the community they just left of people who created a sanctuary that was then attacked by sadistic humans, forcing the original inhabitants, driven mad by despair, to become cannibals who hunted humans themselves.  Perhaps with this five minute conversation he could have explained how, while the town is beautiful, they have only been lucky so far and that they should prepare for the probability that dangerous unfriendlies might try to hurt them.  Just prepare, just in case.

 

Perhaps if, alongside the phony casserole left at the door, Carol had a conversation with Deanna that she is very sorry for her loss and that she understands because she too lost a child.  Even worse, she had to see the zombified corpse of her little girl.  She might also implore Deanna to do more about abusive husband Pete, since she too was a battered wife and that Pete will only escalate.

 

Perhaps if someone, ANYONE, would explain that Sasha is a tad antisocial since in the last couple of weeks she's lost her lover, her brother, witnessed the death of Beth and now has lost Noah.  She's not a bad person at all.  Just traumatized and not thinking straight.   However prior to that she was an intelligent and caring council member.

 

Seriously, why aren't conversations being had?

 

I know everyone hates Deanna, and while I'm not sure that I like her, I don't blame her yet for anything.  She doesn't owe CDB anything.  She invited them into HER town and if they don't like her rules, they can leave and build their own town.  I think the whole conversation about "saving" the AZHats or them being too stupid is bullcrap.  I think that our group has become a tad entitled because they seem to believe that their survival skills makes them superior to others they encounter and that might makes right.  I think the only two who seem to "get it" are Michonne and Maggie - who will go along to get along.

 

I am really torn about Pete.  No I don't condone wife beating but 1) being the sole doctor does indeed give him cache in my book.  I'm sorry but it does.  It's like keeping Merle around because he does serve a purpose, and 2) I could get more down with the "save Jessie" story if SHE herself were trying to leave him and asking for protection and then not receiving it.  We don't know if Deanna offered her an out and she gave her the same speech she gave Rick about how he got better once and that she's ok, blah blah blah.  It's a fact that many in law enforcement hate domestic violence cases because all too often the women protect and/or go back to the brute - even after he's been threatened with consequences.  I don't know.  I really really don't like Pete and but I feel like two things you need in an apocalypse is a weapon and a doctor.  I'd try any number of other options before resorting to killing/exiling him so that people who suffered Tara's fate don't simply die from their injuries.

[chlban]

So what's the deal with Enid and Carl hiding in the tree trunk from a herd of walkers? One entrance. One EXIT. Carl has to know better. Nothing like acting like an idiot over a female

Just like dear old dad.

[Mu Shu]

kikismom, you're right of course, roughly half the remaining humans ought to just off themselves for being terrible horrible no good humans. Claimer guys were just Darryl and Merl without the calming influence of Carol and Rick (for Darryl) and Phillip (for Merl) in other words, for the first time in their lives they wer shown respect so they figured out how to chill out and be productive.

 

Yes I do see that world as one full of promise, a clean slate for those brave enough to act on it in that way. No one seems to be trying to act on it like that though. Yes Jessie is super loud COMPARED to season one Carol. Season 1 Carol was being actively abused by Ed (who may have also been sexually abusing Sophia).

 

So we disagree on some stuff but you did shine a light on the one area where I would knock somoene down in my haste to kill, that being anyone who rapes or abuses children (I'd probably kill rapers of adults right quick too so yeah, everyone is not super valuable, hyperbole gets the better of me YET AGAIN!!!HEY! LOOK AT ME!! HEY!!!)

I sort of get your point about a world full of promise.   Hell, all anyone had to do was get supplies and hunker down for awhile, and form groups with half decent people once it all subsided.    But human behavior has been hardwired for many millennia,  and that behavior is what caused successful civilizations to prosper.   

I love the way Reg called out, "Deanna!" for her to come break up the fight.  He's such a wimp!

He is.    He probably makes her drive the family truckster.

[Raven1707]

Well, damn!

 

I thought I might actually make it all the way through the comments today -- which would be a personal best! -- but now I think I need to go ahead and transcribe the dialogue for this episode, because there are a number of things being asserted that I honestly don't recall seeing, even after four viewings.

 

One thing seems certain, though: Beauty isn't the only thing in the eye of the beholder.

[kikismom]

Now that you mention that, I think you may be right, and we were the only ones who saw the walker heads. I need to rewatch.

 

 

Back at Noah's old neighborhood did they actually see the "W"'s?  I know they saw the body parts, but I think when the heads fell out of the truck we the viewers were privy to the "W" but not the characters.  They were trying to get out of dodge and their car was stuck.

https://i.imgur.com/2JgOGdg.png

[Dodginblue]

I'm starting to think ASZ is a big psychological experiment. Or because the walls are there keeping out the monsters, CDBers can no longer compartmentalize their own issues because of the crisis at hand.

 

I have a hard time believing Carol is so invested in Sam's safety when she threatened to tie up to a tree and leave for Walkers. I don't doubt for a minute she meant what she said to him. She killed Lizzie.

 

I think Carol is acting out her own issues with DV and her own inability to leave Ed. She didn't have someone championing for her welfare when she was with Ed.  So she is using Jessie and Rick as her avatars so to speak.

 

I think Rick is working out his Lori issues because he couldn't save her from being zombie chow.

 

I thought Carol had already worked out her issues involving her wife beater husband, with everything she's done to show herself that she is strong and can take care of herself and even, with the Terminus attack, save other people, too.   I guess I'd be more enamored with her role in all this if she had gone to Jessie and tried to help her directly instead of sending unstable Rick to do it.    If I were of a dark, cynical disposition, I might suspect that's what Carol was up to all along, get Rick to blow himself up.