Spoilers and Discussion

[Hana Chan]

I've reached the point where for me, Glee officially ended with the season 4 finale. This way I can keep my happy head canon of Rachel actually given some real challenges before her inevitable stardom, Kurt never accepted Blaine's proposal and is still dating Adam and the never-ending pool of suck that is Blam never arrived to infect the NY storyline. Because what we've gotten since reads like poorly constructed fanfiction.

 

Actually... I should ammend that last statement. I've read poorly constructed fanfiction that showed a hell of a lot more thought, attention to character and plot development than this crap. With the sole exception of getting multiple episodes with Chris Colfer losing his shirt and Adam Lambert, season five was a total waste and season six promises to be worse.

[tom87]

The Warblers were irrelevant  the moment Kurt left Dalton if not before.

 

They are just throwing crap at the wall and whatever sticks is going to be written in.

[jaytee1812]

They are just throwing crap at the wall and whatever sticks is going to be written in.

 

That's insult to crap thrown at walls. ;)

 

I now wish season 6 was going to be Rachel in LA starring in a show about a high school glee club. And that sounded dreadful a few weeks ago.

[indeed]

I now wish Tina would have another head injury and we could just watch the originals back in high school--no matter how old some of them might look! Or Glee "Friends"--that would be better than season 6 is sounding!

[jaytee1812]

I now wish Tina would have another head injury and we could just watch the originals back in high school--no matter how old some of them might look! Or Glee "Friends"--that would be better than season 6 is sounding!

 

Tina's head injury dream from 'New Directions' would make an awesome season 6. (Mike would so win her back!!)

[tab19]

I third the call for a Season 6 to be Tina's head injury dream!

 

I can imagine ways to get three of the originals back in Lima (based on the rumors):  Lea leads New Directions, Darren leads the Warblers and Chord is Schue's assistant at Vocal Adrenaline. But first, it's such a come-down from what they each supposedly wanted, and second, wow, I do not want to see more of the Rachel/Blaine/Sam show.  

[camussie]

I am betting it is Blaine with the Warblers, Schue/Unique with VA, and Sam/Rachel with ND.  As far as how they should get them there:

• Rachel can be taking a sabbatical from her crazy life and her good friend Sam (who has been in school) asks her to come back to Lima and help him re-start ND.  After all she is a rich successful TV star so who better to help him take on Sue?
• Schue is already at Carmel with Unique as his assistant (remember that is where she went to school first).  She can be attending Lima U like Finn was.  Unique's being with VA previously also explains why she is rumored to be coming back.
• Blaine is actually the problematic one as he is tied to Kurt.  Maybe they decide to get married at Dalton (where they met) and he goes back for a few months to get the wedding ready right after he graduates (assuming there is a time jump) and Kurt can't get there right away because he has work.  While at Dalton one day working out some wedding details the Warblers ask for his help for as long as he is in town.  That would explain Kurt's absence while Chris films his movie

 

To accomplish this they would have a time jump of around 3 years (since Blaine just finished his freshman year at the end of last season) which would give them time to have Sam & Unique in school.  Will established at Carmel.  And Rachel finding the grind and success of show business wearing/unfulfilling.  

 

The first episode or two could catch us up on the last three years and then we do 10 or so episodes of the three groups interacting with the last episode being the goodbyes including the Will/Rachel last scene in the choir room

Edited June 25, 2014 by camussie

[Pink ranger]

With only 13 episodes I guess that the final battle is sectionals, just like the f13 of the series.

[carefree]

With only 13 episodes I guess that the final battle is sectionals, just like the f13 of the series.

 

Oh goodie! More competition and OFC Nude Erections will win because how couldn't they? It's the best way to bring it full circle! 

 

Wow, they're beyond scraping the barrel. They're scraping the earth below it and disturbing the worms that are more useful. 

[tom87]

Gee who will win the Warbles, VA or ND?????

 

And nothing promotes arts education more than competition, we all know that is what the Arts are all about.

Edited June 24, 2014 by tom87

[heyerchick]

I find myself not wanting to dignify the existence of Season Sux with speculation...

[Sara2009]

Since next season will be a huge mess anyway, could the writers contrive a reason for Will and Rachel to sing another duet together? A Broadway song would be nice.

[Camera One]

Gee who will win the Warbles, VA or ND?????

 

Before the winner is announced.  Rachel, Will and Blaine will stand up and say, "Nobody should win.  When there is music education, EVERYONE wins!"   As everyone does a group hug that ends all the angry animosity they had displayed towards one another all season, Holly Holliday barges onto the stage and bursts into the latest pop confection of 2015, and the final ten minutes are her and April singing and doing jazz hands through the crowd.

[bjork]

Can Tina burn down the schools? Please?

[Glorfindel]

Untill Hunter lead the Warblers in season 4 (and I can't believe I still remember that) they always had a student council making the decisions, not a teacher or professional choir director. And even Hunter was a Dalton student at the time.

So how would (assumedly) Blaine become the leader of the Warblers after not being a student at Dalton anymore for several years?

 

Oh Glee, you really suck when it comes to continuity and details like this.

[Coxfires]

Seriously, do the writers don't even realize just how shitty the whole stuff sounds and will with no doubt be? FOX really should spare the cast, crew and audience and kill it before production starts.

[Hana Chan]

Untill Hunter lead the Warblers in season 4 (and I can't believe I still remember that) they always had a student council making the decisions, not a teacher or professional choir director. And even Hunter was a Dalton student at the time.

So how would (assumedly) Blaine become the leader of the Warblers after not being a student at Dalton anymore for several years?

 

Oh Glee, you really suck when it comes to continuity and details like this.

 

Especially when he left Dalton and spent two years competing with New Directions. Having him directing the Warblers makes no sense.

 

ONTD has dubbed this season 666. I think even Satan would disavow this stupidity.

[Hana Chan]

There is no way that this storyline makes any sense or is in any way respectful of the journeys of any of the characters involved (with the sole exception of Sam, which I will explain).

 

Rachel - From the pilot, Rachel has been a person of the most single-minded, goal oriented drive. To the point that not even the love of her life could compete with her ambition. To have to walk away from the career that she was willing to sacrifice everything for to lead ND is in direct opposition to everything her character has stood for. The only way to explain why she would suddenly be willing to drop everything for a high school show choir is 1) really be unprecedented and have her career  flagging or 2) having her find that she just doesn't find being a big star satisfying and have give it all up for ND. The show has always treated performing arts teachers as something of failures - they're teaching because they can't make it in the profession. We saw that with Schu, Shelby, Cassandra - all of them are teaching because they in some way failed in their professional performance endeavors. The only one who isn't painted as some kind of failure was Ms. Tibideaux and even she was referred to by Rachel as a "has been". In Rachel's canon mindset, if you aren't performing, you are a failure. And if she is successful, having her swan into Lima to rebuild ND makes even less sense. For her to then shift gears to teaching would really fly in the face of five seasons of character development on her part. Even more so, Rachel has the worst possible temperament to be a teacher. Teachers have to think behind themselves and do what is best for their students. Rachel has always put herself first and even those that she loves a distant second - she would probably be the last person on earth to be happy guiding the further aspirations of others rather than focusing on her own. She would, at best, end up being too much like Schu at his worst - when he saw ND as a stand-in for his own thwarted ambitions and their success as a proxy for his own. Anything else would be too much a departure from her character.

 

Schu - My feelings about Schu as a teacher and how he played favorites and manipulated his students to serve his own interests are hardly a secret. But to have him leading VA and competing against ND is really disrespectful for his character. I have huge issues with how he went about his job, but I don't doubt that he had a real passion for his choir (even if it was partly his own misplaced personal ambition). He's with VA because ND was shut down so to have him leading a choir against his old group is really cruel on the show's part. It puts him in an adversarial position, which he doesn't deserve. Either he is corrupted by the VA win at all costs mentality, or he's managed to change VA's culture and make it more about love of performing (which would eliminate a major part of the automatic audience instinct to root for the ND protagonists). Either he really works against ND, or he sacrifices his current crop of students for ND's benefit. It can't turn out well for him.

 

Sam - Sam suffers the least here because it's not as if he's got any real professional ambitions. He's just stepping into Finn's shoes (and please Gods... let Rachel not be part of that deal) and fulfilling what RM had planned for Finn. Since his character is such a dim blank, he can be manipulated into the spot with little issue.

 

Blaine - Blaine working with the Warblers is just as problematic as Rachel working with ND. Supposedly he's got professional ambitions and if he's successful, returning to Ohio makes no sense and like Rachel, the show will never allow him to have career problems. And to have him in Lima leading a choir while Kurt is away presumably working is really going to blow people's minds and give the impression that Kurt is more successful professionally (in that he doesn't have all this free time to devote to leading a choir group, which is really going to be an interesting proposition). And to have him working with the Warblers is problematic, as he was with ND longer than he was with the Warblers and competed against them with ND. The makeup of the Warblers, having a student council leading the group rather than a faculty advisor, would preclude Blaine having a place leading them. Of course, after the doping scandal, the team might now be required to have a faculty advisor to oversee them. Which leads to another issue...

 

For Blaine, Sam and Rachel, there is a huge roadblock in them having positions as choir directors. None of them are teachers, nor have applicable credentials to qualify them as artistic directors. If the time jump is more than three years, they could stretch it out enough that Blaine would have graduated NYADA so would at least have an undergraduate degree, but no real teaching credentials. Sam showed no interest in college and Rachel dropped out after her freshman year. Whatever professional successes they may or may not have would not qualify them for instructor positions. They could act as volunteers (the way Finn did), but that would assume that they can afford financially to work unpaid for a full year to guide their respective choirs through the multiple competitions stretching out over the school year.

 

The more you poke at it, the less plausible anything planned for season 6  becomes. The one good thing is that we've had absolutely nothing in the way of spoilers for how Kurt might fit into the season. Never did I think that I'd be so grateful for not having any spoilers or storyline for Kurt since it means that he won't have a major part in this unmitigated mess.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Hana Chan

[indeed]

I forget--was Jesse an assistant or leading VA in season 3 when he was at Nationals to say good things about Rachel to Madame Thibideaux? He doesn't have teaching creds...

Especially when he left Dalton and spent two years competing with New Directions. Having him directing the Warblers makes no sense.

The biggest problem here is: how will Blaine sing every single Warbler song as a coach?

[Sara2009]

I expect that Rachel, Blaine, and Will are going to sing most of the songs in the choir plot, and that their respective groups will just consist of a bunch of random kids.

[caracas1914]

Eh, actually Blaine being the director of the Warbers is the most  predictable spoiler: the show feels compelled to have  some character(s)  constantly kiss his ass and having the original stepford wives Warblers go back to that role is both easy and lazy.  It's even more convenient  because they are not even fleshed out characters so no pretense that any of their scenes are anything but an excuse to highlight his awesomeness.

 

Sam stumbling at McKinley trying to be a leader will be retread of every Finn season 4 storyline, though of course RIB  have to find some disposable LI for Sam to pretend he's all that and a bag of chips to every girl he encounters.   Maybe Brittany will do a couple of cameos and they rehook BRAM together again, since she is Bi and they are both mental equivalents.

 

Artie I expect not much SL or development on his career, though, I think his dreams of being a director had the most promise.  It's mind boggling how having a young character at film school in Brooklyin resulted in ZERO SL's about creative projects shown  on screen, but of course, according to Ryan Murphy, it's "all about performing arts in school. "

 

Lea at least as Rachel will bring home both the drama and the comedy, as will Matt Morrison.  I don't want to get my hopes up that Matt will get plenty of opportunities to sing and dance.

[camussie]

They have a very small window where it could make sense for both Rachel & Blaine to be back in Lima temporarily especially since the season will only be 13 episodes and therefore could take place over the course of just 3-4 months..  

• Rachel if she is simply re-charging between projects because the grind is wearing her down.  While she is re-charging in Lima Sam (who is now in college to be a teacher) asks her to use her prestige as a star to help him get ND restarted. She eagerly agrees given how critical her time in ND was in getting her career started and also because of what it meant personally to her
• Blaine if it is shortly after his graduation and he is in town getting his and Kurt's wedding planned since he doesn't have a job yet and Kurt does (as he is a year+ out of school).  While in town he is helping out the Warblers in an unofficial capacity mainly to stay involved in music during the lull between college and whatever he moves onto next.  

 

Those are both explanations I would go along with but of course RM and team won't go with easy explanations like that.  Rachel will have to be disillusioned with it all and ready to settle in Lima forever and Blaine will decide that small town life is for him or something like that.  The key to making this Lima thing come even close to making sense is to make it very clear that this is a ​temporary stop-over for both Rachel and Blaine before they move onto the next step in their careers.  

Edited June 25, 2014 by camussie

[Hana Chan]

Even if it was being made clear that Blaine and Rachel were only going to be involved for a few months rebuilding their respective choirs, you're still taking a pretty huge chunk of time for two people. Especially if it's unpaid/volunteer. Odds are that Rachel is to some degree successful in her career so finances wouldn't be as big a concern, but she would have work requirements to juggle. As for Blaine, if this happens shortly after graduation, then his focus would need to be on getting work and building his professional career - not mentoring his old choir. And Blaine being in Ohio ties Kurt to Ohio and the last thing I want is to see Kurt dragged back there after he's finally escaped.

 

This would be a hard enough needle for a competent team of writers to thread. The hacks at Glee, on the other hand... this is going to be a disaster.

[caracas1914]

I think Ryan Murphy has "end game" of the hoof and will do any plot convulsions to get his now proclaimed Rachel/Will conclusion in Lima.

The problem of course is they logically need to use choir members as props and non speaking/non singing characters if the focus is ostensibly on the leading actors/characters. Yet how can the audience be invested in choir rooms where they don't know the students well. However, knowing RIB, they will give these 3.0 Noobs some kind of storyline and get completely distracted, so that suddenly Marley 3.0 ( heaven help us) and Warblers 4.0 get songs and tons of screentime in a shortened season. As long as Ryan Murphy gets his shirtless Sam money shots it will be about the performance arts in his mind.

Going back to choir competition for a 6th season with choir room performances because the writers are too lazy ass to actually write any new development for adult characters is about par for the course.

[Sara2009]

I wonder if the writers actually want us to invest in the kids, or if we're just supposed to care about Rachel, Will, Blaine and the other familiar characters. Ryan mentioned back in April that we would see how the characters " give back." Maybe that's what the 3 show choirs thing is really going to be about.

[Camera One]

The problem of course is they logically need to use choir members as props and non speaking/non singing characters if the focus is ostensibly on the leading actors/characters. Yet how can the audience be invested in choir rooms where they don't know the students well.

 

If they don't fast-forward too far ahead, they could have Marley, Jake, Ryder, Kitty, etc. be in their senior year of high school, so that would be New Directions.  "Convincing" them to come back would take an entire episode.  After Blaine left, they still occasionally featured the Warblers even though we only knew one character... they're generally considered as a collective.  Then all we're left with is Vocal Adrenaline, where we'll have Unique.  

 

The main group we'll be seeing will no doubt be McKinley, so there might not be a need to flesh out more of Vocal Adrenaline.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Camera One

[caracas1914]

The point is in a shortened season why waste time on The noobs and the Warblers. If they bring back the Noobs, using them like they did in "100" is a pointless exercise.

Dalton/ Warblers, does the show really need to spend any more screen-time on Stepford characters?

[Hana Chan]

And if the season is supposed to be Rachel/Blaine/Sam heavy, then they can't waste too much time focusing on a new crop of noobs (who will have even less time for development than the first lot (and we all saw how well they were received). With 13 episodes (at best), there is almost no time for any kind of story development. Depending on how big a time jump they're making, most of the original noobs are likely already graduated.

[camussie]

I wonder if the writers actually want us to invest in the kids, or if we're just supposed to care about Rachel, Will, Blaine and the other familiar characters. Ryan mentioned back in April that we would see how the characters " give back." Maybe that's what the 3 show choirs thing is really going to be about.

 

 

This is my guess - that we aren't supposed to be invested in the kids but rather in how Blaine, Rachel, and Sam, are giving back (thus the "Daleastreet" promotion they were doing this past spring).  Unique as well (if she is Will's assistant at Carmel) with Will playing sort of a mentor to all of them at one time or another.

 

As for the other newbies since I think there will be at least a 3 year time jump I doubt we see them.

 

As for Kurt, if Blaine is back for a short time after graduation and not planning on staying there, I don't think that would mean Kurt dragged back to Ohio beyond him being back there for his wedding to Blaine, both planning it for a few episodes and then the wedding itself.  Even before they announced they would be going back to Lima this season I always assumed Blaine/Kurt would get married at Dalton, the place where they met and got engaged.  I am also assuming that their wedding will be the focus of at least one of the episodes, if not more, this season.

Edited June 26, 2014 by camussie

[Sara2009]

I'm actually sort of interested in how the musical numbers are going to work next season. I hope Matt/Will gets at least one great choreographed dance number.

I also want Rachel to take over every ND number because she just can 't help herself. If it 's played for laughs, it could work.

[caracas1914]

Seriously, it's not like Chris Colfer is going to be gone for 6 months of filming, for fucks sake. If he's gone for 4-5 weeks of filming his Noel movie he would still be available for the majority of the (per Matt Morrison) 13 episodes of Season 6.

It will be amusing to hear all the bullshit rationalizations we will get why Kurt won't get leading SL's or focus this last season despite being along with Rachel, the only young original leading character left from Season One. Artie has always clearly been supporting.

Fully expect Ryan Murphy and company to milk the hiatus for the Noel Movie to use Kurt for little more than a prop for the Klaine Wedding for Ryans's big fat cultural gay wedding statement and have stand in the sidelines supporting Rachel and Blaine for season Sux.

Edited June 25, 2014 by caracas1914

[whack-a-mole]

A whole season of preachy public service announcement about the importance of arts education in schools sounds terrible no matter who's involved or where it's set. I hate it when Glee tries to teach me a lesson. Everybody winds up wildly out of character and a mouthpiece for the message of the day.  None of the rest sounds any good either, but just the intent behind it sounds like this will be painfully bad.

 

Having the original kids go on to careers, some in the arts, that are fulfilling would do a lot more to show the value of having arts in high school than any amount of saying it while teaching a bunch of competing choirs as they all rot in the dregs of Ohio.

Edited June 25, 2014 by whack-a-mole

[camussie]

It will be amusing to hear all the bullshit rationalizations we will get why Kurt won't get leading SL's or focus this last season despite being along with Rachel, the only young original leading character left from Season One.

 

 

I  think it is BS that Kurt won't get much focus (even as both he and Blaine annoy me to no end). I am mildly curious how they will have Blaine back in Lima while Kurt is in NY (so as to give Chris time off to film his movie).  After all they will need to come up with some reason they aren't together.  Since I doubt they are going to be broken up, given that RM wants to making a statement about gay marriage, having Kurt working and unable to get away makes the most sense to me.   I fully suspect that will last for the first 2-4 episodes and then they will have Kurt back in Lima, ostensibly to be planning his wedding or something like that but really to play support to Rachel and Blaine's story, while he remains above it all since that is all those in charge can seem to write for the character.  

Edited June 26, 2014 by camussie

[bjork]

The more you poke at it, the less plausible anything planned for season 6  becomes. The one good thing is that we've had absolutely nothing in the way of spoilers for how Kurt might fit into the season. Never did I think that I'd be so grateful for not having any spoilers or storyline for Kurt since it means that he won't have a major part in this unmitigated mess.

Funnily enough, that's a saving grace for me too. I can imagine Kurt studying post-grad at LAMDA or RADA and tearing it up on the West End and that Blaine gigs around and busks when Kurt is studying while he visits him. Or I can pretend that Kurt is lobbying in Washington, DC for arts education and is making more headway than Mr. Schue because of his father's connections. Just something to keep those kids from getting stuck in Lima.

I don't really want any of them there temporarily either. They're bound to "see the light" on how all their professional dreams are selfish when there are new generations of small town kids that won't believe in the power of music unless they get the message browbeaten into them. I'm not convinced that Rachel has an overwhelming obligation to "give back" in this way, especially when she's still so young.

[tom87]

meh Rachel can give back by paying for glee club.   Everyone but the writers know if Rachel gave it all up for glee  club she would resent it it in no time at all.

[Glorfindel]

How can ND, VA and the Warblers all compete against each other at the same competition?

- ND lost from VA at Regionals in season 1. Then things changed for VA in season 2 and 3, when ND and VA each won seperate Regionals, as both choirs were able to go to Nationals (VA won Nationals in season 2, ND in season 3).
- The Warblers tied with ND at Sectionals and lost from ND at Regionals in season 2, ad their own Sectionals in season 3 but lost from ND at Regionals again, both choirs got disqualified after Sectionals in season 4 but competed against each other again at Regionals (and ND won).

 

So, if they follow canon (lol), ND could face the Warblers again at Regionals but not at Nationals. With VA it's the other way around: ND could face VA again at Nationals, but not Regionals. But I doubt that 12-13 episodes allow for at least 2 competitions to be shown (Warblers/Regionals and VA/Nationals), let alone 3 (if they want to show ND's Sectionals too).
In order to get all 3 choirs together in the same competition they either need to have Vocal Adrenaline compete in the same region as ND and the Warblers again (Regionals), or they somehow magically have the Warblers be able to win yet another seperate Regionals (while ND and VA win theirs), and they all go to Nationals together. And that would mean 3 choirs from Ohio at Nationals,.... right.

 

Somehow I doubt RIB want Glee to end on Regionals and not Nationals (especially if the noobs are then in their senior year), as Ryan is all about the grand gestures. He might even throw in a spontaneous Klaine wedding on stage after ND wins Nationals, with all the choirs and judges cheering them on (got to top the 100+ people proposal).

 

And I think I just put more thought and effort in this than the Glee writers ever will.

After all: in RIB's minds it's perfectly possible for a disqualified choir to take the place of another disqualified choir, even when there was a 3rd choir who had actually won Sectionals by default.

[caracas1914]

God,  let's hope that it's not faceless choir competitions with zero investment in the actual performers.

 

Wait, It's Glee, they would so waste musical numbers like that.

[tom87]

n/m

Edited July 2, 2014 by tom87

[spiritof76]

Just to add to the discussion as to how ER/Glee discussion, the other difference with ER in my opinion is that, that is the type of show that set up the setting as central to the show. County General and the ER was what the show was about. It lent itself to rotating people in and out. It wasn't about one person's journey or story (maybe Carter's) it was about all the people and lives and cases that came and went through the ER. Glee wanted to be that. Ryan wanted to make the choir room that type of anchor, but they failed to set themselves up that way. That is not to say it couldn't have been done. It could have, they just would have had to make much difference decisions from the start. 

 

 

Schu - My feelings about Schu as a teacher and how he played favorites and manipulated his students to serve his own interests are hardly a secret. But to have him leading VA and competing against ND is really disrespectful for his character. I have huge issues with how he went about his job, but I don't doubt that he had a real passion for his choir (even if it was partly his own misplaced personal ambition). He's with VA because ND was shut down so to have him leading a choir against his old group is really cruel on the show's part. It puts him in an adversarial position, which he doesn't deserve. Either he is corrupted by the VA win at all costs mentality, or he's managed to change VA's culture and make it more about love of performing (which would eliminate a major part of the automatic audience instinct to root for the ND protagonists). Either he really works against ND, or he sacrifices his current crop of students for ND's benefit. It can't turn out well for him.

This is my problem with the possibility of Schu going to VA as well. I do not want to see Will in an adversarial role. That would just seem so unfair. I don't like the idea of it. For better or for worse he and those kids were in the fight together. I don't want to see them pitted against one another. 

Edited July 1, 2014 by spiritof76

[Camera One]

I do not want to see Will in an adversarial role. That would just seem so unfair. I don't like the idea of it. For better or for worse he and those kids were in the fight together. I don't want to see them pitted against one another.

Unfortunately, that is the easiest way of generating conflict. The entire Rachel/Santana fight last season was manufactured to create and drag out a conflict for multiple episodes. If they want to write animosity between characters to create conflict, then fine, but at the very least make it enjoyable to watch, give it an actual point, and don't destroy the integrity of both characters in the process. The Rachel/Santana arc did not fulfil any of the three criteria. And notice that adversarial was the first go-to plotline even when they brought Mercedes aboard. The writers are clearly not creative enough to do anything else.

[camussie]

I think ER started out as having more focus on Carter's journey, in particular the Carter/Benton mentorship relationship but it transitioned away from by mid season 2 to being more of an ensemble and therefore more about the setting..  Still they paid homage to their beginnings at the end of the series by bringing Benton & Carter back with Benton playing back seat driver when Carter got a kidney transplant.  Also by having the series end on Carter opening a  clinic for the underprivileged with several characters showing up in support.  Those in charge at Glee should learn some lessons on how to transition away from the original focus of your show while still honoring that original intent as the series comes to close.  

Edited July 1, 2014 by camussie

[caracas1914]

I just find the ER, Friday Nights live, Lost , Grey's Anatomy comparisons to Glee not applicable  because through the first 5-6 years of those shows there were clear leading characters who remained that way despite being "ensemble" casts with multiple actors transitioning in and out. 
The Coach and his wife were the lead characters in "Friday Nights Live", in ER, it was Clooney and several others for at least 5 years, ditto Greys Anatomy with Grey, Derek, Izzie and Christina, etc, etc.

 

None of those shows had the fucked up idea to replace the leading characters with 2.0 imitations after 3 years and make heretofore clearly supporting characters who were manned by  weak actors at best (Chord, Jenna, Darren and Heather) suddenly "lead characters."  Glee literally threw away it's  successful mix of actors/chemistry that helped make it a hit  so suddenly you had a split narrative where it leading actors made cameo appearances while everything but the kitchen sink was thrown to  shove the new revamped McKinley down the public's throat.

 

Who the fuck extends a losing proposition by not ending  a school year because the show runner can't admit he erred in trying to make new stars?

 

Only Glee.

 

ER and the rest were not that mind staggeringly  stupid.

PlLus those shows had decent writers.

[Camera One]

I just find the ER, Friday Nights live, Lost , Grey's Anatomy comparisons to Glee not applicable  because through the first 5-6 years of those shows there were clear leading characters who remained that way despite being "ensemble" casts with multiple actors transitioning in and out. 

The Coach and his wife were the lead characters in "Friday Nights Live", in ER, it was Clooney and several others for at least 5 years, ditto Greys Anatomy with Grey, Derek, Izzie and Christina, etc, etc.

 

None of those shows had the fucked up idea to replace the leading characters with 2.0 imitations after 3 years and make heretofore clearly supporting characters who were manned by  weak actors at best (Chord, Jenna, Darren and Heather) suddenly "lead characters."  Glee literally threw away it's  successful mix of actors/chemistry that helped make it a hit  so suddenly you had a split narrative where it leading actors made cameo appearances while everything but the kitchen sink was thrown to  shove the new revamped McKinley down the public's throat.

 

Who the fuck extends a losing proposition by not ending  a school year because the show runner can't admit he erred in trying to make new stars?

 

Only Glee.

 

ER and the rest were not that mind staggeringly  stupid.

PlLus those shows had decent writers.

Replying in People in Charge thread.

[camussie]

I just find the ER, Friday Nights live, Lost , Grey's Anatomy comparisons to Glee not applicable  because through the first 5-6 years of those shows there were clear leading characters who remained that way despite being "ensemble" casts with multiple actors transitioning in and out.

 

 

I wouldn't say people are comparing Glee to these shows as much as contrasting Glee to them. Showing where these shows did something right that Glee did wrong.  For example:

• FNL wanted to keep the town of Dillon front and center so they kept Coach and Tami Taylor the leads.  In contrast RM claims that the choir room is the heart of the show but he transitioned Will away from being a lead
• ER started out as having very heavy focus on character's journey, Carter's, but by the second season it had transitioned to more of an ensemble show. Yet by the end of the series they found a way to honor the original intent of the show (Carter's journey) without making it seem like the characters were forever stuck at Country General.  Glee probably won't  manage to do the same for Rachel or Will.  

Edited July 1, 2014 by camussie

[cycworker]

 

I wouldn't say people are comparing Glee to these shows as much as contrasting Glee to them. Showing where these shows did something right that Glee did wrong.  For example:

• FNL wanted to keep the town of Dillon front and center so they kept Coach and Tami Taylor the leads.  In contrast RM claims that the choir room is the heart of the show but he transitioned Will away from being a lead
• ER started out as having very heavy focus on character's journey, Carter's, but by the second season it had transitioned to more of an ensemble show. Yet by the end of the series they found a way to honor the original intent of the show (Carter's journey) without making it seem like the characters were forever stuck at Country General.  Glee probably won't  manage to do the same for Rachel or Will.  

 

Excellent analysis.

 

I would add Grey's in there, too. They're an interesting hybrid, that initially, although they claimed to be about the 5 interns, the first season or two was really about Meredith's journey. Like you described with Carter, the action was meant to be perceived through her eyes... her POV and how it impacted her journey. By the end of Season 2, it began to switch, as the other interns really were a hit in their own right. 

 

Even Grey's has had cast loss issues.The Isaiah Washington firing could have put them in Glee territory, just because of what Cristina and Burke had begun to mean to the audience (and, of course, all the negative publicity re: the on set issues). Then shortly after that the problems continued with Knight & Hiegl, yet the show got through it, because they had  vision and they stuck to it. And more importantly, when they have brought in new characters, they've done it carefully. And the ones that don't work, they write out, which is why we had the mass casualties in the S6 finale (buh-bye, you extraneous Mercy Westers!) and this season they wrote out 3 of the 5 new interns introduced in Season 9. 

[caracas1914]

Even Grey's has had cast loss issues.The Isaiah Washington firing could have put them in Glee territory, just because of what Cristina and Burke had begun to mean to the audience (and, of course, all the negative publicity re: the on set issues). Then shortly after that the problems continued with Knight & Hiegl, yet the show got through it, because they had vision and they stuck to it. And more importantly, when they have brought in new characters, they've done it carefully. And the ones that don't work, they write out, which is why we had the mass casualties in the S6 finale (buh-bye, you extraneous Mercy Westers!) and this season they wrote out 3 of the 5 new interns introduced in Season 9

 

Well if we are "contrasting", some of the big cast changes "Grey's Anatomy " did was IMO because they were necessitated by major personnel issues. Isaiah's perceived homophobic statements caused dissension on the set; Heigel wanting out of the show to pursue a movie career, ( plus publicly shading the show by announcing her names withdrawal from Emmy consideration because her role didn't merit one). Otherwise the "core" actors of Season one of the show remained part of the cast for at the  least first 7 or 8 years. I think it's fair to say that if there was no on set  problems with either they probably would have continued several plus years on the show.

In contrast, with 'Glee' a lot of the cast sidelined by Season Four (including regulars Naya and Chris, relatively speaking per screentime ) stemmed from the show runners unilaterally deciding they were creating new leads. There was no real transition or seamlessly transferring characters in and out. It's like they ripped off the band aid or hacked off an arm of the show helter skelter and thrust a bunch of actors as the new "lead" characters.

Edited July 2, 2014 by caracas1914

[whack-a-mole]

 

Isaiah's perceived homophobic statements

I'm not sure how you exist, but that's the worst thing I've heard anybody say today and I had to watch some FOX news because I have old family members who are horrid people. You perceive that. Okay, I perceive you're the worst person I have ever met.

[caracas1914]

Isaiah's perceived homophobic statements

 

I'm not sure how you exist, but that's the worst thing I've heard anybody say today and I had to watch some FOX news because I have old family members who are horrid people. You perceive that. Okay, I perceive you're the worst person I have ever met.

LOL, Don't get your panties in a bunch.

Personally I thought his remarks were crystal clear and horrific.

I used "perceived" in the context of IMO how most of the public/GA probably viewed his comments. Thus I assume most GA/people thought it was homophobic but there is always that .0001 percent that don't. For example, I would think some who view FOX News (to take your anecdote) would have no problem with his comments. Won't hazard to guess how many, but there has to be a few, sadly enough.

Edited July 2, 2014 by caracas1914

[Cranberry]

The Isaiah Washington situation is off-topic for this thread (and apparently contentious to this day; who knew?), so let's drop that line of discussion, guys. That said, I thought it was pretty clear that @caracas1914 was discussing how Washington's comments were perceived by the public in general. 

 

Let this post also serve as a reminder to everyone that insulting your fellow posters won't be tolerated. You can always find a way to debate without resorting to personal attacks.

[Anna Yolei]

Regarding why so many folks got dropped in season four, wasn't there some spinoff that RM was pushing for, then Fox said no and that's why we ended up with a split narrative?