S05.E09: A Moorland Holiday (Christmas Special)

[majormama]

It's true, they haven't given Tom much of a story, but I think AL has done a fabulous job playing the recovering widower. When my best friend died at 28, it took her husband about four years to get to the point of being ready for love again, and I see a lot of his own grief and growth in Tom. But it is time, and I hope Tom finds love in America and brings back a wonderful new bride.

 

I agree with you that DA needs more young, passionate love, but I really enjoyed the realistic picture of older love. 

[Andorra]

I think it's all about the mixture. I thought this season it was too much weight on the elderly couples.

 

I hope Tom will come home with an awesome, Irish American wife, but if they won't do a big time jump it seems unrealistic.

If Allen Leech hinted correctly, it looks like he will back from episode 4

.

[ShadowFacts]

 

I agree with you that DA needs more young, passionate love, but I really enjoyed the realistic picture of older love.

Yes, and the fact that older women get good storylines at all is pretty notable in itself.  I think Isobel, Violet, Mrs. Hughes are every bit as interesting as Mary, Edith, Anna and Daisy.  And then some. 

[ennui]

I knew it was coming but I didn't see the scene of them walking into the water hand in hand as romantic at all. I just thought it was him not wanting to go in and her taking his hand to encourage him.

That's actually a nice metaphor for love. When Mrs. Hughes took his hand, I thought it was her way of getting his attention. She liked him for a long time but he wasn't catching on. Some men are slow. :)

[AZChristian]

Some men are slow. :)

 

Well, THAT'S the understatement of the year.  LOL.

[Ohwell]

I think Isobel, Violet, Mrs. Hughes are every bit as interesting as Mary, Edith, Anna and Daisy.  And then some.

I so agree.  I'd also like to see Mrs. Patmore get romanced by some nice gentleman.  I think that Rose and Atticus are a delightful young couple, and I wish them well.  However,  watching Mary and Edith and their "romances" was about as exciting as watching grass grow.  And Daisy is just too silly for me to be interested in her finding someone.

[SusanSunflower]

My problem with Hughes and Carson is that Hughes seems so much quicker than Carson and much much more forgiving -- and -- she's going into a relationship in which she will financially dependent and in running a B&B, an employee of this same man. Bates and Anna's relationship arose without financial concern. I think Hughes and Carson have a good enough working relationship, but 24/7/365 might get too much, in fact, for either of them.  Carson needs to lighten up and becomes rejuvenated -- which is entirely possible. Hughes will need to be a bit less deferring, which will not be hard for her -- unless Carson exerts his "perogatives". 

Edited March 7, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[peggy06]

Regarding Mary's first interaction with Henry, it was uncomfortable to me when she informed him that he was bumping his host from the shooting. Yes, he asked, but only after she made some murmur or started a comment that practically begged for explanation. It was rude IMO because there was nothing to be done at that point, and it served no purpose to embarrass Henry about it. Besides which, Atticus was behaving as a good host should, and even if they had not yet set out when Henry found out the situation, I bet Atticus would still have insisted that Henry take his place. Because that is what a good host does - makes sure his or her guests are comfortable and enjoying themselves. Also, Mary should know it's the height of bad manners to point out someone else's solecism. Manners are about putting people at ease in social situations, not about adhering to a set of rules to prove how well-bred one is.

 

And anyway, it was none of Mary's business! You could see if Rose was grousing (no pun intended) on her husband's behalf. But who is Mary to be so put out? The whole thing was so weird that I figured it was meant to set up a meet-cute (or maybe meet-snarky) between Talbot and Mary. The very same ploy was used with Charles Blake, and it's straight out of the romantic comedy playbook. Which makes me wonder what went wrong with the Blake character. I actually thought that was a pretty good pairing at the outset. Then it seems like he disappeared for a long time.

Edited March 8, 2015 by peggy06

[memememe76]

Whether successful or not, the fifth season featured Mary's romantic entanglements, Tom/Bunting, Rose/Atticus (the most successful by a long shot). There is a lack of "youth" in the Downstairs section and with Rose leaving, it'll even be "worse." I wonder if Fellowes is missing an opportunity by not having Dickie and Isobel marrying--the two sons can provide another element to the show. One son is really quite loathsome (which the show could use, anyway), but the other could realistically evolve. 

 

There is Daisy, but honestly, I find her overall irritating. But she can go to a school, where there would be other people of her age. 

[Eegah]

What I imagine was going through Fellowes' head during this one: "Well, both actors I was setting Mary up with want off the show, so screw it, I'm just going to throw Ozymandias at her."

[Rhetorica]

I couldn't sleep, and for some reason, I thought of Marigold. Most scenes show her with her mouth agape, dull eyes, and slouching. Almost like she had a cold or fever. But I remember her in one scene and she was very alert and really cute. Due to labor laws in the US, we use twins for very young actors. Is that the same in UK? If so, perhaps one of the twins had a cold or didn't feel well. 

[Andorra]

They used twins for Marigold and they changed the child mid season. At the beginning of the season they had a girl with straight hair, who you can hear talking in the background if you pay attention. The twins they cast were supposed to have been 18 months old when they filmed, but the first child looked older than 2 years old.

 

In the later episodes they changed the child or, if were twins, they were not identical and just didn't look very much alike. The new child had curly hair and looked much younger than the first child. She also looks a bit shy in most scenes.

 

They never disclosed the name of the child actors for Marigold though, so I suppose the parents withdrew the child in the middle of the production and another child had to be cast quickly.

 

Given what I had to read about the child on the various message boards, I'm sure the parents will be horrified and never ever think of allowing one child of theirs to be used as a child actor for a production. The comments have been disgusting to say the least.

[flutist4fun]

I didn't care at all about Carson and Mrs. Hughes. A similar pairing-up was done years ago on Upstairs, Downstairs (I don't want to give away the details). I could see this coming from a mile away, and though Mrs. Hughes is a great character, I find Carson way too stuffy and mean (e.g., he's too good to eat with Daisy?!).

 

I'm happy to see Edith happy. She is so much nicer than Mary (except for the Drewes debacle), and much more beautiful, sexy, interesting. Why don't any of the men see this??? I'm talking to you, Matthew Goode-looking. Mary singing Silent Night, I actually left the room.

 

Yes, please, can the Bateses go away now. Was hoping they would get word that "Bates died in Ireland," so Anna could become wonderful again on her own. Moseley is just too dimwitted, isn't he? Without Bates, he could have bumped up a rung on the servants' ladder of life, maybe lost the footman's gloves. Run, Baxter, he will drag you down.

 

So many great actors carrying such dopey scripts. (Hoping to see some of these people in new shows soon. Who is up for a 'Violet and Isobel solve crimes in a quaint British village' show?) Glad to see Barrow with lots to do, although they are writing him like he's sort of insane. The Chicken Broth Wars, not a bit funny, and oh did anyone investigate if maybe the Bateses murdered Isis?

[Andorra]

I didn't care at all about Carson and Mrs. Hughes. A similar pairing-up was done years ago on Upstairs, Downstairs (I don't want to give away the details). I could see this coming from a mile away, and though Mrs. Hughes is a great character, I find Carson way too stuffy and mean (e.g., he's too good to eat with Daisy?!).

 

I agree. That's what I hate the most about him, too. He is so full of himself and shows no compassion at all for other people besides his Darling Mary and maybe a little bit for Mrs Hughes.

He treated Tom Branson like dirt even though the man lost his beloved wife and everyone could see how devastated and lost he was. Instead of helping him or offering some comfort (like Mrs Hughes did), Carson still behaved as if Tom had stolen the family silver.

He doesn't approve of Daisy educating herself of course and he is personally insulted that Gwen wants to better herself.

But the worst is his treatment of Molesley. What has Molesley done to deserve this treatment? He came into this situation solely without his own fault. Mr Carson of all people would have DIED if he had to take a step back in his own career and yet he expected Mr. Molesley to be grateful and have no problem with it at all. This season he makes fun of Molesley's request to be first footman, why? Molesley was a valet once what is bad about him wanting to better his position again? Yet Mr. Carson treats him as if it is an imertinent request.

[flutist4fun]

Yes, his treatment of Molesley was really the worst. Now I feel bad that I said Molesley was dim. ;-( He is a bit dim, but he's not mean. I will go sit in the corner with Mr. Carson.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Yes, his treatment of Molesley was really the worst. Now I feel bad that I said Molesley was dim. ;-( He is a bit dim, but he's not mean. I will go sit in the corner with Mr. Carson.

 

 

Hmmm, I wouldn't say Moseley is dim.  He said to Daisy he was smart in school & could have been a teacher.  "Dim" implies Moseley is stupid, which we've seen he isn't.  His idea to help Bates by taking his picture around to the pubs in York was smart.  I suspect Moseley is just socially awkward.  And this is what annoys Carson.  He doesn't seem to know how to play the game.  He doesn't smootch up to Carson (cuz he really doesn't know how to) & he isn't slick like Thomas.  Hey, I would think that's a good thing.  I mean, Carson knows Thomas is a slimy slickster & he seems to not like him either -- exactly because he has that trait.  So there's no winning with Carson.  He pretty much hates (or at the very least, looks down on) everybody -- except for Mrs. Hughes.

[Eolivet]

They used twins for Marigold and they changed the child mid season. At the beginning of the season they had a girl with straight hair, who you can hear talking in the background if you pay attention. The twins they cast were supposed to have been 18 months old when they filmed, but the first child looked older than 2 years old.

 

In the later episodes they changed the child or, if were twins, they were not identical and just didn't look very much alike. The new child had curly hair and looked much younger than the first child. She also looks a bit shy in most scenes.

 

Thank you for this! I thought Marigold looked much younger when Edith took her to London than she looked at the Drewes' house, but I didn't know exactly what happened. I also think having a younger-looking child helped when Edith...took her back. Because of her age, it seemed natural for Edith to hold her all the time and dote on her.

 

(Still find her more interesting to watch than the sullen kids who play George. At least Marigold actually looked at the Christmas tree! And her "Donk" scene with Robert was very sweet.)

[Litnit]

So some poor (fictional, I know) woman has to embarrass herself and there has to be a poor bastard child who doesn't see his Dad (fictional, I know) to teach everyone a lesson about being nice to each other?  Oy vey.  Yeah, and knowing your FIL had an affair / one off with somebody and there is a child is a pretty big secret to keep early in a marriage, n'est-ce pas?

 

Bates can please leave now.  I actually was thinking Mosely would find the birth control when he was snooping.  Hilarity might have ensued!

 

I hope Matthew Goode is here to stay.  Damn that man is fine.

[SusanSunflower]

I think the whole Sinderley family capers does not bear thinking about and was/is only possible because we are never going to see those people ever again.  He now knows that a half-dozen people -- not family -- know about his "indiscretion,"  and he doesn't seem the type to decide to move to India and give up his "significant role in the community."  It was disproportionate to his "crime" and I'm doubtful he even connects it to rudness to Tom Branson or any action on his part -- just that he was screwed over by "someone" and the Rose and Granthams saved his bacon for reasons unclear. He will make inquiries, at very least trace the message to his mistress back to the house. But it doesn't matter to us - we've moved on. I can envision the butler smiling as he discretely pushes Thomas in front of a train, fwiw. 

Edited March 8, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Kohola3]

Oh, good. Another Vehicle of Justice.

[DeepRunner]

Hmmm, I wouldn't say Moseley is dim.  He said to Daisy he was smart in school & could have been a teacher.  "Dim" implies Moseley is stupid, which we've seen he isn't.  His idea to help Bates by taking his picture around to the pubs in York was smart.  I suspect Moseley is just socially awkward.  And this is what annoys Carson.  He doesn't seem to know how to play the game.  He doesn't smootch up to Carson (cuz he really doesn't know how to) & he isn't slick like Thomas.  Hey, I would think that's a good thing.  I mean, Carson knows Thomas is a slimy slickster & he seems to not like him either -- exactly because he has that trait.  So there's no winning with Carson.  He pretty much hates (or at the very least, looks down on) everybody -- except for Mrs. Hughes.

 

Molesley is not dim, necessarily, but the only time he showed any character development was in S1 and late in S4, plus S5. Fellowes has often used him as a piñata, constantly for buffoonery. From his failed attempt to get Anna in S2, to the cricket match, to his drunken dancing at Duneagle, to his mopish, stuffy declining of being a footman again when he desperately needed work, Molesley has been a cartoonish, miserable failure held up for ridicule by TPTB. I sort of admire Kevin Doyle for allowing his character to suffer beatdowns for so long.

[SusanSunflower]

Molesley's nice because he doesn't seem to carry grudges... he learns who's who and what's what and after a sulk, gets on with being pleasant and professional.  I'm not sure Fellowes intends or "plots" these character shifts.   Isobel between season 1 and 2, from upright middle class do-gooder to meddlesome and even quarrelsome then back again to the nice Isobel, minus social condition concerns. Violet's recent shift has been to "kinder, gentler" and more open but it's still startling and more startling because she had been "aging" significantly before this last season and now seems almost spry.  See also Cora this last season and Robert this last episode, almost unrecognizable. Thomas is always malevolently scheming, but if he has some inner rage or despondency, it's well hidden. He seems to interact well-enough with other staff on a day-by-basis but after all this time, I have no idea what wellspring of anger keeps him going -- sometimes it's sort-of-obvious revenge, but other times mysterious -- the idea that to comes from "being gay" isn't really enough.  I originally thought Fellowes was "shaking things up" and "keeping things interesting"  but the more I thought, the less coherent that explanation became. 

Edited March 9, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Ujio]

honeywest, on 01 Mar 2015 - 11:06 PM, said:

I didn't realize till I checked IMDB that Alun Armstrong was the castle butler and Jane Lapotaire was the princess--double Nicholas Nickleby!

 

.

Alun Armstrong also played Harry Percy senior in The Hollow Crown - Henry IV, and his son Joe played his son Harry (Hotspur); part of that series was also filmed at Alnwick Castle.

. .

 

 

For Les Mis fans, Alun Armstrong will forever be remembered as the original Thenardier! Master of the House, indeed!

 

I'm late to the party, but some random thoughts...

• I seldom think Allen Leech is handsome, but I found him stunning in this episode.
• I know I'm in the minority, but I enjoyed the "brothgate" storyline. I don't care for Denker, but who wouldn't want to see Spratt make a fool of himself.
• Even though it was a sweet moment, I wasn't super keen on Mrs. Hughes/Mr. Carson engagement. I hope they don't get too lovey-dovey next season.
• SO happy for Molesley and Baxter! I know this is not the UO thread, but Molesley just might be my favorite male character on the show...
• ITA with Violet that Dr. Clarkson WILL be thrilled with the broken engagement. And I am, too!
• Matthew Goode!!!
• Really happy we got many lovely Edith moments. And every dress she wore was beautiful.

 

I thought it was the best episode in a long, long time. Can't believe we'll have to wait 9 months for another episode!

[jnymph]

From as far back as season 1, I've always thought Mrs. Hughes and Carson have had an intimate connection. Sure, it wasn't the smoldering sexual tension one normally sees with younger couples - but the concern they've both have had for each other over the years seem to me to be beyond the normal bounds of friendship and camaraderie. The look on Mrs. Hughes' face when she accepted kind of made that point for me, as much as I could see beyond my suddenly blurry eyes. ;)

 

As I am no spring chicken myself (I'd make a terrible broth), I have no problems believing they've been harboring a physical attraction as well as an emotional one.

 

I agree !  I don't understand why WOULDN'T it be a physical attraction ?  They may be more 'mature' but they ain't dead yet.    

[helenamonster]

I saw something with Jim Carter before the season aired where he said if they ever were to get together, Carson would probably still shake her hand and called her Mrs. Hughes because "anything more would be improper." I can't see them making Anna/Bates googly eyes at each other while they're working. They both, especially Carson, take their jobs very seriously (not saying Anna and Bates don't, but their relationships and positions are very different). I see the whole thing as something for them both to look forward to when they retire.

[jnymph]

I saw something with Jim Carter before the season aired where he said if they ever were to get together, Carson would probably still shake her hand and called her Mrs. Hughes because "anything more would be improper." I can't see them making Anna/Bates googly eyes at each other while they're working.

Oh, that's fine in public. But I hope JF throws us a bone; that makes it clear that they are doing the nasty behind closed doors . Because that'd make this fan at least, happy.

Edited March 9, 2015 by jnymph

[ZoloftBlob]

Not just doing the nasty, I want Carson and Hughes to be the 50 shades of grey couple! :D

[meep.meep]

That's actually a nice metaphor for love. When Mrs. Hughes took his hand, I thought it was her way of getting his attention. She liked him for a long time but he wasn't catching on. Some men are slow. :)

Thanks for putting this better than I could!

I am a Big Alun Armstrong fan, but I think the original Thenardier was French. At Castle Meep.Meep we are disappointed that Lady Mary didn't recognize him as her father in law (Henry IV part 1).

[jordanpond]

I also don't give high marks to Rose for being so loving to him after seeing he's clearly a hypocritical dirtbag. She's happy to keep the mistress and the illegitimate baby brother a secret from her husband in exchange for his acceptance? OK, them.

I got the impression that Rose intervened in order to save her mother in law from a very public humiliation. I don't think gaining Daniel's approval motivated her in the least, although I'm sure she welcomes his change in his attitude toward her.

I agree that it is a shame that Rose is stuck with the burden of having to keep such a major secret from Atticus. But I think her only motivation to keep the secret is because she believes Atticus would be deeply hurt to know the truth. I don't think any amount of acceptance by her father in law would matter if she thought that Atticus was actually better off knowing the truth. I think her major concern is for Rachel and Atticus, even though her silence benefits Daniel as well.

And Rose and Atticus do completely adore each other don't they? In the scene with all the dancing, they kept twirling around the room, staring into each other's eyes and smiling at each other. It's been so nice to see a couple this season so crazy about each other. I have found them to be quite the breath of fresh air.

Edited March 12, 2015 by jordanpond

[AZChristian]

Meant to post in the media thread . . .

Edited March 12, 2015 by AZChristian

[jordanpond]

Henry was glad that Mary informed him of what was going on. If it hadn't been for her, they would have thought of him as a pushy inconvenience the entire time. A kind of Richard Carlisle type who doesn't care who he inconveniences so long as he gets his way.

That being said, Mary did acknowledge that it wasn't any of her business to Henry, she just wanted to let him know. I'd personally want to know if my hosts thought that my presence was a nuisance.

Although I agree with you in that I also would like to know if I had inconvenienced my hosts, and that Henry was glad to learn of it, I think that the way that Mary told him was inexcusable. She didn't tell him in a friendly, concerned, "I don't mean to embarrass you, but I thought you might want to know this" kind of way. Rather she essentially told him off. She was incredibly rude.

Also, I don't think Atticus and his family looked at him as a nuisance, let alone as someone who had been "pushy." He was invited by Atticus' friend, and it seemed that the family thought any inconvenience was completely accidental. If I were hosting a party and the friend of a friend had accidentally inconvenienced me, and I chose to do nothing about it, the last thing I would want is for another of my guests to point out the fauxpas, and I would be mortified if my guest did it in such a rude manner as Mary.

Edited March 12, 2015 by jordanpond

[Blade]

I got the impression that Rose intervened in order to save her mother in law from a very public humiliation. I don't think gaining Daniel's approval motivated her in the least, although I'm sure she welcomes his change in his attitude toward her.

I agree that it is a shame that Rose is stuck with the burden of having to keep such a major secret from Atticus. But I think her only motivation to keep the secret is because she believes Atticus would be deeply hurt to know the truth. I don't think any amount of acceptance by her father in law would matter if she thought that Atticus was actually better off knowing the truth. I think her major concern is for Rachel and Atticus, even though her silence benefits Daniel as well.

And Rose and Atticus do completely adore each other don't they? In the scene with all the dancing, they kept twirling around the room, staring into each other's eyes and smiling at each other. It's been so nice to see a couple this season so crazy about each other. I have found them to be quite the breath of fresh air.

 

I agree.  I think that Rose's motivating factor was to protect first her husband and secondly her MIL.  I understand why she'd want to spare her husband what she herself has had to endure because of her parents' divorce (namely the way she's been treated by her father-in-law).  By saving Daniel, she saved all of them from the social repercussions, including the mistress and the illegitimate son.  Even still, I can see why she'd want to protect him for her own sake.  Having to deal with scandal from both sides of her family would be misery.

[jordanpond]

I was standing in line at the bank a few days ago, when I saw a man wearing a shirt with a logo that looked very familiar. I then realized that it was the same as the avatar of our dear fellow poster, Kohola3. Mygawd, I spend entirely too much time in this forum!

Overall, I thought this was a lovely finale. I agree with whoever said up thread that it was sentimental without being hokey. It was my favorite episode since the season 2 finale. I loved the tribute to Sybil. In addition to the great fashions mentioned above such as Mary's gorgeous red coat, I thought Isobel's red gown in her final scene with Dickie was lovely. and I thought Edith in her red dress and Marigold in her green dress looked wonderful together. I think it's adorable how the little girl who plays Marigold wraps her fingers around the hem of Edith's garments when she holds her. It reminds me of George wrapping his fingers around Mary's on the day of his birth. And Wow! The way Henry leapt into his snappy chariot was amazing!

On the not so great side: Although Bertie (?) the agent seemed rather handsome as well as very nice, I was disappointed that he wasn't younger, and that he was someone they "felt sorry for." In the first five seasons,they've only ever shown three men being interested in Edith, with all three of them a good bit older, and with two of the three being middle class. I'm finding it too hard to believe that no young, attractive member of the aristocracy ever came to one of these gatherings and was bowled over by the pretty, intelligent, and interesting Edith. I was glad to see her enjoying his company, but once again a man interested in Edith was someone who would be considered (by their standards, certainly not mine) as well beneath what would ever be considered good enough for Mary. A bit disappointing in a finale that I thought had an otherwise rather lovely tone to it.

ETA: I forgot to mention the archways! The scenes shot from the abbey's balcony, showing the Christmas party through the archways, were stunning. They were a beautiful complement to the all the shots of the archways outside the castle from earlier in the episode. Just when this show can't get any more gorgeous, it gets more gorgeous!

Edited March 13, 2015 by jordanpond

[annzeepark914]

I didn't get the impression that Bertie was middle class.  I thought he was a younger son of an aristocratic family (so I guess he's the "loser" since he doesn't inherit a title/castle/estate/the works!).  Or did I get this wrong? (which can happen to me due to some of the veddy British upper class accents/slang that I seem to keep failing to interpret correctly).  I loved the last (xmas) episode and it made it even more difficult to know that this was the last wonderful Sunday evening of TV enjoyment for almost another year. Why the heck can't this series be on from Sept to April?  Those wonderful British actors don't make the obscene salaries that American celebs in Hollywood earn for stupid sitcoms that run from early fall to late spring so for goodness sakes...why are we being deprived of real talent and quality programming?

[kassygreene]

The agent was a third cousin to the office holder, just as Matthew was some sort of third cousin to Robert.  So at the back of my mind I wonder if a surprise inheritance might be in the cards.  However, the death duties on that pile would be enormous, and if Hexum (?) had to rent it out, then there can't be a lot of funds.

[helenamonster]

I loved the last (xmas) episode and it made it even more difficult to know that this was the last wonderful Sunday evening of TV enjoyment for almost another year. Why the heck can't this series be on from Sept to April?  Those wonderful British actors don't make the obscene salaries that American celebs in Hollywood earn for stupid sitcoms that run from early fall to late spring so for goodness sakes...why are we being deprived of real talent and quality programming?

 

I'm not overly familiar with British television, but short seasons are generally SOP in the UK, no? Also, while I doubt any of these actors (besides maybe Maggie Smith) are making anything near what American television actors make (though I'm sure they're making a lot more than they were in Season One), something tells me the cost of making this show is positively astronomical and couldn't sustain a 22-episode season.

[Andorra]

I mean to remember reading that one episode of Downton costs about 1 Million pounds.

 

I think it takes so long to film (from the beginning of February till the Middle of August), because it is mostly filmed at original places and not in a studio. The Downstairs scenes are filmed at Ealing studios, and so are the bedroom scenes (they filmed the first season bedroom scenes at Highclere, but found it was too hard to do, so they built the bedrooms at Ealing, too).

 

Some of the scenes take a very long time to film. The dinner scenes for example need 12 hours filming for a 2 minute scene.

 

All other scenes are filmed on location or at Original places. I think that is a lot more effort and time consuming than filming everything in a studio.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Andorra

[Tetraneutron]

I didn't get the impression that Bertie was middle class.  I thought he was a younger son of an aristocratic family (so I guess he's the "loser" since he doesn't inherit a title/castle/estate/the works!). 

He was middle-class like Matthew at the start of the show. His third cousin is Lord Hexum. (He said the old Lord Hexum was his father's second cousin). He's familiar  enough with the castle as he grew up there . As for inheriting a title it's unlikely. We don't know the makeup of the Hexum family, but in Matthew's case, the Lord had to have only daughters and then the two in line above him died in a freak accident. That doesn't happen much. Usually third cousins are well out of it.

 

The difference is Matthew (and based on him and Isobel, we can assume his dad as well) embraced being middle-class, got good jobs, learned things. Pelham hangs around waiting for the aristocrats to throw him scraps, which he's pathetically grateful for. And unlike the aristocrats he doesn't even have manners. When someone had to back out of the shooting party, everyone thought it should have been the agent (who was only there out of pity anyway) but he let the host sacrifice himself without saying anything. The whole party thinks he's rude and he either doesn't notice or doesn't care. Plus he says the has no ambition and is happy just sitting on the sidelines, not doing anything with himself but enjoy occassional luxuries that belong to other people. (Contrast this to Henry Talbot, who both picked up on Mary's shade and handled it by being charming, and was savvy enough to get the Diana Clark situation).

 

Of course this is the kind of guy Edith will get. Atticus even says everyone feels sorry for him, but they don't know why. The Crawley family and staff regularly says that about Edith.

[sark1624]

I agree with some points of the last post, the problem its we have little information about the character, i dont think that its a looser, the state agent its a very important job also he said that before he was in the army (for that fact we can assume that he was a officer and a ww1 veteran) and maybe the death of his father was a important issue for him and have to resign. I dont think that was rude with the shooting party, i think is the host who decides the all things and the host decided that he can also shoot with the others, i agree with some posts above that in fact Mary was rude in making the comments about Talbot and etc.

 

And no have "ambition" its a vague term, for example, the ambition of Mary is have a titlle, suitable husband, the state in good order, basically be the queen; the ambitions of Edith maybe different now that she has Marigold with her and its basically stay with her, if we compare we can reach to the wrong conclution that the Mary its a winner and Edith is the looser.  

[annzeepark914]

@sark1624:  I didn't mean that the young man (the third cousin) was a loser in the sense of someone who can't accomplish anything.  I meant that due to not being the first born son, he wouldn't win the title, the estate, the prestige, etc  But I liked him and hope that what we briefly saw of him in this last episode is who he truly is (i.e.,a nice young man) and that he and Lady Edith start seeing each other. 

[JudyObscure]

Bertie did say to Edith that he had no ambition, he was happy as he was, but I thought it was just his way of saying that he was content.  He seemed to have been career army when he was asked to manage the castle, so I wouldn't call that begging for scraps but just moving from the position of army officer to something he thought he would like better and that would be useful to the family. 

 

Was Lord Grantham saying he thought Bertie was rude?  I didn't quite catch all that was said as they were setting out to hunt.

 

It's beginning to look like accepting an invitation to hunt is stepping into a booby trap for social error. 

[morakot]

why are we being deprived of real talent and quality programming?

 

 

Most (if not all) American shows are run by a showrunner and written by a stable of writers. Most UK shows are written by a single writer (or a pair). This is a major reason why there are short seasons. Of course, Julian Fellowes, as the only writer for Downton Abbey, can write as much as he wants to. However, he's already recycling plots -- how many more times do you want to see a Bates being accused of murder? :-) You know it would happen at least twice if not three times in a 23 episode season!

[Tetraneutron]

Bertie did say to Edith that he had no ambition, he was happy as he was, but I thought it was just his way of saying that he was content.  He seemed to have been career army when he was asked to manage the castle, so I wouldn't call that begging for scraps but just moving from the position of army officer to something he thought he would like better and that would be useful to the family.

Not quite. He said he left the army when his father died. The actual line is "I didn't know what to do next, and I suppose Cousin Peter felt sorry for me." Then he goes onto say that he envies the sort of man who flies across the Channel or cures a disease, but that's not him. And he's overjoyed at how generous the Sinderbys are by letting him stay for dinner. On the whole, not a dynamic character.

 

Mary's goals might be stupid to modern eyes, but at least she has ambition.

[Badger]

I disagree about Mary's ambition being having a title.  Her ambition is to see that Downton remains viable for her son who will be the next Earl of Grantham.  

[JudyObscure]

Not quite. He said he left the army when his father died. The actual line is "I didn't know what to do next, and I suppose Cousin Peter felt sorry for me." Then he goes onto say that he envies the sort of man who flies across the Channel or cures a disease, but that's not him. And he's overjoyed at how generous the Sinderbys are by letting him stay for dinner. On the whole, not a dynamic character.

Thanks, Obviously, bless your observational skills. I listened to that scene a second time yesterday and still didn't catch it all. When JF wants to give us information, like all the rapid briefing Lord Grantham was giving us in the beginning, about why they were going to the castle and whose butlers were going, etc. it's rattled off so quickly I can't take it in.

We'll just have to wait and see if Bertie's a user and loser, or the adorable, self-deprecating Huge Grant I was trying to turn him into.

Why do I have this dread that Edith is going to fall for him, Bertie will propose, Robert will know it's just for Edith's money and talk him out of the marriage at the very moment Edith is waiting at the church?

[jordanpond]

I disagree about Mary's ambition being having a title.  Her ambition is to see that Downton remains viable for her son who will be the next Earl of Grantham.

But, is Mary's ambition primarily for George? I've always had the impression that the number one reason, by far, that Mary wants Downton to remain viable is for herself.

[mcjen]

 

-- how many more times do you want to see a Bates being accused of murder? :-) You know it would happen at least twice if not three times in a 23 episode season!

I can imagine it devolving into this:

 

Mrs. Hudson: (walks into kitchen) Her Ladyship has some requests for tomorrow's luncheon. Has anyone seen Mrs. Patmore?

 

Daisy: She went into the village for some supplies.  Been gone awhile; I wonder she's not back yet.

 

(knock on the back door)

 

Police Inspector:  I'm here to arrest John Bates for the murder of Beryl Patmore.

 

And so and so on.  Every time anyone leaves the house, Bates is suspected of murder.

[ZoloftBlob]

But, is Mary's ambition primarily for George? I've always had the impression that the number one reason, by far, that Mary wants Downton to remain viable is for herself.

 

At this point, I don't think there's any question that Mary nominally will be in charge of Downton until George is of age. I forget the details but Matthew's magical letter/will that he wrote on a napkin and left in his office left the half of the estate he already owned to Mary with the understanding it would fall to any son if Mary had a son.  I think she'd *like* a title beyond Lady Crawley since she can never be the Countess of Grantham but none of the suitors including Henry Talbot seem to be more titled than her. (Of course, by next season, Henry will no doubt be the fifth guy in line to a dukedom and all the heirs will die in the Hindenberg crash or something)

[helenamonster]

Why do I have this dread that Edith is going to fall for him, Bertie will propose, Robert will know it's just for Edith's money and talk him out of the marriage at the very moment Edith is waiting at the church?

 

Lol, while it's clearly not beneath Fellowes to repeat a plot beat for beat, I think the main conflict for Edith and Bertie is going to be Marigold. She'll hold onto the story that Marigold is simply a ward, but will then start to fall for Bertie and feel compelled to tell him the truth. Then, just as she's about to do so, Bertie will make some offhand, random comment about how bastard children are the bane of his very existence and she'll chicken out. Eventually, he'll figure it out but there won't be any dramatic fallout, he'll just accept Marigold based on some out-of-nowhere newfound perspective and all the build-up will have been for nothing.

[ennui]

I suppose it's too much to hope that Edith could simply tell the truth -- she fell in love, got pregnant, baby's father was killed -- and Bertie will accept them both and raise Marigold as his own.

Robert would never interfere, since single mothers usually stay that way.