Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[Proteus]

Holy crap!

https://deadline.com/2019/08/brandon-routh-courtney-ford-exit-dcs-legends-of-tomorrow-series-regulars-season-5-the-cw-1202702311/

[Lantern7]

Well. Shit.

[Starfish35]

3 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Well. Shit.

Same.  It kind of feels like my reasons for watching the show are all gradually disappearing. 😕

Edited August 23, 2019 by Starfish35

[srpturtle80]

19 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Same.  It kind of feels like my reasons for watching the show are all gradually disappearing. 😕

Same. I am beyond disappointed by this. 😩

[Proteus]

And yet they keep Nate.

[Lady Calypso]

WHAT? 

Aww man. That seriously is a bummer.

And I HATE that it's because of "creative decisions", rather than the actors wanting to leave.

[statsgirl]

So much more story potential than Nate.

They were so cute together. The one relationship on the show that I liked.

[Primal Slayer]

Oh wow, he was as major of a staple for LoT as Sara is so him being gone will be a huge blow to the show. They should use Season 6 as a bit of a soft reboot of the show and get rid of Nate/Constantine (love him but he LoT doesnt fit him that well full time) and bring in some new DC characters.

Double wow! I thought this was his decision at first but it isnt! WOW! Major fail by the creative team!

[Sakura12]

While disappointing, it's not unexpected since it's been pretty obvious the writers of LoT are more interested in their new characters over the ones that helped launch the show. Last season the only characters that had any focus were Mona, Constantine, Ava and of course their favorite Nate. Ray, Sara and Mick were just background characters. I wouldn't be surprised to hear they are both leaving at the end of the season either.  

Edited August 23, 2019 by Sakura12

[Proteus]

I now have zero faith that season 5 will be any good. At this point I'm only watching for Sara & Ava.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Proteus

[Primal Slayer]

Part of me wonders if this is to save budget as it isn't that big of a coincidence that thus far all of the characters they've gotten rid of came with a pretty hefty CGI use.  

[BaggythePanther]

According to the article it seems like they will be leaving before the end of the season. I wonder if this is crossover related? Because I can’t think of any other reason why you’d write them out in the middle of the season.

[MarkHB]

Considering that my favorite character and main reason for watching the show in the first place is The Atom...

 

[Sakura12]

They wrote Jax out in the middle of season. So they've done it before. Ray and Nora can leave like the Hawks left. They want to go explore being together. 

Ray, Mick and Sara were background characters for most of last season so it's not surprising the writers think there is no more story to tell with them. That leaves them more time for Nate and Constantine. I wouldn't be surprised to hear Dominck is leaving next. They will probably only try to keep CL so it doesn't upset Avalance.  Not because they have a story for her outside of her relationship. 

Edited August 23, 2019 by Sakura12

[Primal Slayer]

Honestly I feel like Mick should've been gone a long time ago, all they keep him around for is to grunt and make some kind of joke that goes with him being the big bad moody guy.

[BaggythePanther]

13 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Part of me wonders if this is to save budget as it isn't that big of a coincidence that thus far all of the characters they've gotten rid of came with a pretty hefty CGI use.  

Then why is Nate still here?

I’ve been expecting Dominick to leave for awhile, but I think he enjoys getting paid to just hang around until they start filming the next season of Prison Break. 

I’m sad to see them go. Ray made a big turn around from his Arrow days. And I liked him and Nora together and as individual characters.

[Oreo2234]

Quote

And I HATE that its because of creative decisions, rather than the actors wanting to leave.

Me too. Ray is awesome and the best male character on the show. He and Nora worked better than any romance on the show. I'd rather lose Constantine and Nate than Ray.

 I hate it when writers seem to lose interest in the original characters and get shiny new toy syndrome with the new characters. Supergirl can be like this with its characters too and its annoying. Anyways, Ray brings so much to the show and they can still do a lot with him. Its a mistake to let him go.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Oreo2234

[Lantern7]

1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

Same.  It kind of feels like my reasons for watching the show are all gradually disappearing. 😕

Worse, while I'm okay with most of the newer characters (Gary needs to be toned down, if not outright murdered), I don't think they could carry the weight of the remaining original characters. If LoT were to end and replaced with a solo series on Sara, I'd be open for it. I dunno . . . get her to tour the Arrowverse, one city at a time.

1 hour ago, Proteus said:

And yet they keep Nate.

I'm good with Nate, but I think he's at his best when he's with Ray and they try to outdork each other. They are to LoT what Blue Beetle and Booster Gold were to the relaunched Justice League in the Eighties. Separately, they're tolerable; together, the chaos multiplies exponentially.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Lantern7

[Primal Slayer]

6 minutes ago, BaggythePanther said:

Then why is Nate still here?

I’ve been expecting Dominick to leave for awhile, but I think he enjoys getting paid to just hang around until they start filming the next season of Prison Break. 

I’m sad to see them go. Ray made a big turn around from his Arrow days. And I liked him and Nora together and as individual characters.

He barely chromes up it seems nowadays and all they have to do is make his costume look shiny as opposed to Rays flying/shrinking in the most expensive costume in the Arrowverse.

[BaggythePanther]

Legends is a different than most shows because they inherited most of their original cast. I’m not surprised the writers are more interested in the characters they’ve created. Sara seems to be the only original character they like, and even she’s been through some changes since season one.

ETA:

4 MINUTES AGO, PRIMAL SLAYER SAID:

He barely chromes up it seems nowadays and all they have to do is make his costume look shiny as opposed to Rays flying/shrinking in the most expensive costume in the Arrowverse.

 

But Ray barely shrinks anymore. If anything he just uses his shrink ray glove. 

I don’t hate Nate. I love the Ray/Nate bromance. You almost never see two straight men be so overtly affectionate and I find it refreshing and I’m going to miss it. But IMO Nate is the least interesting Legend character so I find it frustrating that other more interesting characters have left or been rebooted, while we’re stuck with boring Nate.

Edited August 23, 2019 by BaggythePanther

[statsgirl]

Ray's optimism and being a genuine good guy helped to balance the other characters who were mostly either dark or grey in Sara's case.

I'm bored with Constantine's magic at this point (a little of the character goes a long way), Mick is barely there, and Nate is setting a new record for a Gary Stu.

With Ray and Nora gone, I'm left with Sara and Mick as my reasons to watch since it appears that they're going to spoil Zari as they did Amaya.

This doesn't feel like a smart creative decision to me.

[Starfish35]

Well crap.  I missed that it was a creative decision.  That makes me even more upset.  

Sara’s becoming a shadow of her former self, Mick usually doesn’t have much to do except drink and grunt, Zari’s character is being totally rebooted.....  Not to mention that with all the focus on romance this last season, Ray/Nora were the only ones I cared anything about.  

I’m really seeing less and less reason to stick around. 😥

[Proteus]

4 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Well crap.  I missed that it was a creative decision.  That makes me even more upset.  

Sara’s becoming a shadow of her former self, Mick usually doesn’t have much to do except drink and grunt, Zari’s character is being totally rebooted.....  Not to mention that with all the focus on romance this last season, Ray/Nora were the only ones I cared anything about.  

I’m really seeing less and less reason to stick around. 😥

Courtney & Brandon are liking multiple tweets about how bad a decision this is so I'm sure they are not happy while trying to bite their tongues.

[Starfish35]

Oh man.  This must have been such a kick in the teeth for them, and especially for Brandon who’s been there from the beginning.  

[Oreo2234]

I'd be very upset if I were them too. I wonder if they just found out very recently. It seems like it. I imagine it would be even more of a shock to Brandon if he found out after the Superman news. 

Edited August 23, 2019 by Oreo2234

[Proteus]

52 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Oh man.  This must have been such a kick in the teeth for them, and especially for Brandon who’s been there from the beginning.  

Someone posted on his Instagram post that this is bull s.... He responded, "Agreed." He also responded to a post saying his leaving isn't connected to the cross over event.

[Starfish35]

1 minute ago, Proteus said:

Someone posted on his Instagram post that this is bull s.... He responded, "Agreed." 

Ouch. ☹️

[Trini]

It's odd that this news is coming out now, right? The show isn't coming back until next year; are they leaving in the just the first few episodes of next season? What episode are they up to in filming?

[Oreo2234]

They apparently won't film their last episodes until sometime in October.

[Proteus]

11 minutes ago, Trini said:

It's odd that this news is coming out now, right? The show isn't coming back until next year; are they leaving in the just the first few episodes of next season? What episode are they up to in filming?

They are filming episode 4 now. So they'll at least be in most of the first half of the season.

17 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Ouch. ☹️

They both seem very hurt by this. :(

[Trini]

15 minutes ago, Oreo2234 said:

They apparently won't film their last episodes until sometime in October.

Hmm, yeah, this could have waited....

[Starry]

I am shocked 😮 I thought it was the actors who wanted out. This would have been easier to swallow if they were setting up Ray as one of the Crisis casualties as I believe they need big deaths to do a faithful adaptation of that story but I can't even get that.

At this point I am positive Kingdom Come Superman is supposed to be Brandon's parting gift.

I wasn't impressed with season 4 and I am not impressed with what I am hearing for season 5 either. I don't begrudge writers for letting go of beloved characters when they think their story is over but these are the same people who changed their minds about Nate's death...

Meh.

[Sakura12]

I'm barely interested in next season as it is. This news doesn't help. With Mick only showing up to grunt once in awhile and Sara hardly being recognizable as the character I once I loved and Ray and Nora being gone I have even less interest than before. 

I know this an ensemble show and they get new characters, the issue is I've haven't been that interested in the characters they brought in. I can take or leave Constantine and Nate, as for their new original characters, I haven't been impressed with any of them. Gary, Ava and Mona. If they are going to get new characters to replace the ones I liked they have to be as good as or better than them and so far only one really has, Zari. So of course they decide to reboot her character so she's basically gone too. Amaya was alright but I wasn't that sad when she left and Charlie just stands around. 

They said they kept Nate instead of killing him last season because he had more story to tell. Really, Nate. The only reason I tolerated Nate was because of his friendship with Ray. He's the one that I feel has no more story to tell but the writers seem to have a hard on for him for some reason. Sara has an entire past to pull from and they never bring it up so to me it just shows me how uninterested they are in the characters that helped launch this show. Do they really think if their show was pitched with Nate, Ava, Gary and the Time Bureau they would be where they are now? 

[Lady Calypso]

Yeah, I really dislike that it wasn't the actors' decisions and that both of them would have loved to continue with the show.

I just can't imagine the reason for it. Creative reasons? Well, they still have Mick hanging around, despite the fact that he barely gets a plot of his own. But I guess he's cheaper to have around? 

Is it for budget reasons? Maybe they found that paying for Brandon was getting too expensive. And that's just a lame excuse as well.

I get that the cast rotates often, but their newer characters aren't really as popular. Zari/Nora were the last really popular new characters and now Zari's being rebooted, likely losing the charm she once had (she certainly lost it when the show forced her to fall in love with Nate) and Nora's on her way out with Ray. Ava's a hit or miss with non-shippers. Mona was an abrupt fail. Gary getting a larger role almost ruined his character. Constantine had a very rocky start. 

Season 4 was...not really a good season, for various reasons. And now, it looks like season 5 is shaping up to go down the same path. Luckily, Ray and Nora will be in at least the first half of the season (if they finish their episodes in October, they should be around until episode 9 or 10?), so that may be when I re-evaluate my relationship with the show. They have until Brandon and Courtney's final episode to convince me that I should stick around for the entire season.

Because, as much as I love Sara and am enjoying Constantine, I sure as hell am not sticking around for more Nate and nu Zari, nor am I sticking around for AvaLance. 

And I hate that I feel this way because seasons 2 and 3 were SO DAMN GOOD. 

[Mellowyellow]

The fact that this was not Brandon and Courtney's decision just makes me mega mega mega bitter. I shall check this board to see what happens to him and watch his parts if he gets a good ending.

Maybe they got rid of Ray to make room for one of the Arrow birds?

Good luck guys! Hope you don't get stuck with one of our birds! 

[Sakura12]

I don't know why people keep thinking of LoT as a dumping ground for other Arrowverse characters. The last character they took was Wally. Every other character was new, Nate, Amaya, Zari, Gary, Ava, and Mona. Nora while around in Arrow as kid I wouldn't count as an Arrow character and Constantine had 1 episode of Arrow compared to the entire season he's been on LoT. Plus he's a character from his own show that was on another network. 

Since they are getting rid of Ray and barely care about Mick and Sara and are only interested in the new characters. I don't see why they'd take a character from another show they don't care about. They would more likely make another new character, probably an original so they can do whatever they want with and not have to worry about because comics. 

[DearEvette]

25 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

And I hate that I feel this way because seasons 2 and 3 were SO DAMN GOOD. 

Right?  When I think of S2 my immediate thought is: Great Cast Chemistry.  But under that I think about how well crafted the Legion of Doom were as adversaries and how cohesive the story line was in addition to how well the entire cast gelled that season.

When I think about S3, my immediate thought was:  Bonkers but the cast sells it.  And under that I think about fun it was discovering each anachronism, how well cast the guest characters were and what a nice addition Zari was and again how well balanced the cast was.

But last season my immediate thought is: Mona & Nate & The bureau.  And while I like Nate well enough, I don't care enough about him to have him and his family such a focus on the story.  I don't mind the Bureau, but like Nate, I hate that their presence loomed so large an important seemingly because of Ava's importance to Sara and Nate's father.  But even worse, all the previously wonderful cast chemistry was just gone. It felt unbalanced. Maisie coming back was wasted.  Mick was mostly MIA and Sara just didn't seem like her old self.  Some of the best stuff was Ray & Nora, imo. 

Sigh.  Now I am sad.

[Mellowyellow]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't know why people keep thinking of LoT as a dumping ground for other Arrowverse characters. The last character they took was Wally. Every other character was new, Nate, Amaya, Zari, Gary, Ava, and Mona. Nora while around in Arrow as kid I wouldn't count as an Arrow character and Constantine had 1 episode of Arrow compared to the entire season he's been on LoT. Plus he's a character from his own show that was on another network. 

Since they are getting rid of Ray and barely care about Mick and Sara and are only interested in the new characters. I don't see why they'd take a character from another show they don't care about. They would more likely make another new character, probably an original so they can do whatever they want with and not have to worry about because comics. 

Not a reflection on LoT but one of the Arrow birds will probably cling onto CW hence my thinking they'll dump her on one of the exisiting shows and more likely LoT than Flash.

[tennisgurl]

Ray and Nora had some of the best stuff last season, but now the show wants to get rid of them because...the writers ran out of ideas for them? Knowing that it was a show choice just makes me so much more bitter than the actors just wanting to leave. Now I am  worried that they might be affected by Crisis, and I really dont want that.

Last season it became clear that the show got more interested in the new characters (especially freaking Mona) over the original ones, and it really sucks that they have not gotten rid of one of their longest running, best characters, just because the writers are distracted by the new shiny things.

Now I am worried about how Ray and Nora's stories will end. I hope the LoT writers dont join the now growing batch of shows that think its "edgy" to kill off their most likable characters when they "run out of story for them" or whatever it is that lazy writers say.

It especially sucks because Brandon and Courtney seem so heartbroken by the news, especially Brandon, who has been here since day one, and was originally supposed to have his own show. It worked out, but now they seem to be just tossing him away.

Edited August 23, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Mellowyellow]

Mona is an absolute pill, Gary is heading towards grating and I was always ambivalent about Ava. 

I don't mind Nate terribly and the Nate/Ray bromance was adorable. 

Besides Sara who probably has her own fanbase I don't see any of the remaining cast having much of a fanbase. Not the wisest decision on their part.

[Proteus]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Ray and Nora had some of the best stuff last season, but now the show wants to get rid of them because...the writers ran out of ideas for them? Knowing that it was a show choice just makes me so much more bitter than the actors just wanting to leave. Now I am  worried that they might be affected by Crisis, and I really dont want that.

Last season it became clear that the show got more interested in the new characters (especially freaking Mona) over the original ones, and it really sucks that they have not gotten rid of one of their longest running, best characters, just because the writers are distracted by the new shiny things.

Now I am worried about how Ray and Nora's stories will end. I hope the LoT writers dont join the now growing batch of shows that think its "edgy" to kill off their most likable characters when they "run out of story for them" or whatever it is that lazy writers say.

It especially sucks because Brandon and Courtney seem so heartbroken by the news, especially Brandon, who has been here since day one, and was originally supposed to have his own show. It worked out, but now they seem to be just tossing him away.

From what's said in the deadline article they are not being killed off. And as I posted above Brandon said "nope" that his exit is crossover related.

[Starfish35]

6 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Maybe they got rid of Ray to make room for one of the Arrow birds?

A commenter on the TVLine article also mentioned something like this, and I just instinctively bristled.  I mean, I agree with @Sakura12 that it’s unlikely.  But I’m also a survivor of Stargate fandom, soooo.  😕

I don’t know.  Brandon and Courtney being so upset about it makes me think that there’s something more behind this, whether it’s cost or being replaced or what.  I don’t know.  I just feel so bad about this. 😭

[BaggythePanther]

Brandon’s good-bye post from Instagram:

Edited August 24, 2019 by BaggythePanther
Added better quality pictures

[statsgirl]

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Ray and Nora had some of the best stuff last season, but now the show wants to get rid of them because...the writers ran out of ideas for them?

Or the writers just ran out of good ideas period.  Last season they took two characters who worked well in small doses (Gary and Mona) and spent too much time on them till they went from an asset to the show to a liability. I think focusing the season on Ava, the Time Bureau and Nate's father was a decision that hurt the show; it felt like it had moved from being about rebels and time travel (which I found charming) to being about the Time Bureau.

I don't know how they are going to replace the hole that Ray is going to leave. The scene where Constantine finds Ray playing Jenga with Vandal Savage worked the way it did because of who the character of Ray is -- there is no other character on the show that could have made that scene work so well.

11 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

And I hate that I feel this way because seasons 2 and 3 were SO DAMN GOOD. 

This. The show was interesting and charming and played up the quirks and chemistry of the characters.  Sara earned her way to captain and Beebo was a major hit. Now Ray and Nora are going to be gone, Zari is rebooted and her big story will be to see if she will be worthy of Nate (blech), Mick is barely on, Charlie is a footnote and Sara is always secondary to the relationship with Ava.

[jhlipton]

21 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

If LoT were to end and replaced with a solo series on Sara, I'd be open for it. I dunno . . . get her to tour the Arrowverse, one city at a time.

Sara and Charlie and Nora and Zari Cross-Universe Adventures (their names even almost rhyme -- the theme song writes itself!) -- that is a show I would watch the hell out of.

Brandon and Courtney leaving just sucks.

[Proteus]

Maybe it's best LOT ends next season. The show has already become a shell of its former self. Best to just end it and get it over with.

[Primal Slayer]

They definitely need to find something more interesting to do with the time travel aspect of the show and they try to be so cheap nowadays that we don't even get that much "superhero" moments.

[BaggythePanther]

Do they want to be a superhero show? Last season they poked fun at the fact that people complain that Legends doesn’t seem like a superhero show. The season was more about magic and there were barely any fight scenes.

[Sakura12]

When thinking about it, I think I'm okay with shows ruining themselves so much that I don't care if they cancelled over having a show I love get cancelled. If they had cancelled LoT after Season 2, I would've been upset. If they cancelled it after Season 3, I would still be upset but would've been okay with that ending. If they cancelled it after last season, I would not have cared. So I would be perfectly fine with next season being their last. 

[Delphi]

Wow,  I was making my sister watch legends last night and told her how much I loved Ray with pretty much anyone and how great he was.   I love Sara but I don't know how invested I'd be in watching without Ray.  

I've also come to really like Nora and don't want her gone either.