S03.E15: Nanda Parbat

[CabotCove]

Like people said about Ray this episode & others, its like his plotline is complete separate & on a different timetable than the major ep plot.

 

Maybe because its supposed to be.

[catrox14]

Maybe because its supposed to be.

 

That's a problem though. Too much time has been devoted to Ray Palmer over several episodes and the only connection he has to Oliver took place in the first two episodes and that was all that was needed.  When they rolled out the Flash it was for two episodes and that worked flawlessly IMO. It was a Barry Allen centric episode but it was still about what was happening to Oliver, who is the lead character in Arrow and the story is about Oliver Queen.  Barry's connection to Oliver was more or less organic.  Even as an antagonist for Oliver it doesn't work because Oliver has become a non-entity for Ray and Ray's world other than Ray getting what Oliver had:  his company and his ostensible woman.  But that hasn't even been positioned as something "bad", because they have Oliver off doing dumb things.  And Ray flying around in a suit, just makes it even more disconnected from the "grounded" world of Arrow. 

 

It's annoying because this viewer is not interested in Ray Palmer and Felicity. This viewer is interested in Oliver Queen, OG Team Arrow, what is left of the Queen family, Malcolm Merlyn and Slade Wilson who are directly associated with Oliver Queen. 

Edited March 2, 2015 by catrox14

[fantique]

Moving away from the conversation a little, there's one thing that's been driving me batty. I've been the good little soldier, closing my ears to the way they pronounce Nanda Parbat, telling myself it's not necessarily in / close to India, despite Parbat meaning mountain in a couple of Indian languages. But they went and revealed that it's in the Hindukush, so dammit, I'm tired of them butchering the name. I wish they'd just shorten it to NP so that I don't have to listen to it anymore. 

How are you supposed to pronounce it?

[Aeryn13]

 

Oliver's decided that he's the only one who's allowed to get justice for Sara's death, and he's going to do it by training with the guy who orchestrated her murder to get rid of the only people with the will and means to punish him for it.

 

If Malcolm hadn`t involved Thea in Sara`s killing, I`m pretty sure Oliver would have happily washed his hands off him. But he knew the League wouldn`t make the "she was drugged" distinction. I know Oliver said in the last episode that he didn`t believe Malcolm would sell Thea out upon capture because he loved her. Which was ludicrous. If he did love her, he wouldn`t have used her like that in the first place. 

Even the villains from 80s soap operas were above targeting their own kids for the most part.    

 

And I don`t get why Oliver having the yips, other than it was badly set up in the storyline, is all about penis envy or something. If a female warrior suffered from having her confidence badly shaken and sought out her opponent again to prove something to herself, I`m pretty sure it would be considered in a much more positive light.

[romantic idiot]

How are you supposed to pronounce it?

 

Nanda: NUN + tha            (th sounds the same  as you'd use in the article "the", a has the same vowel sound as in ma or calm)

 

Parbat: PURR + but             (the t is soft, like the french word for tea).

 

This clip refers to the actress Nanda - ji

 

This clip's first word is Parbat - ke

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh45vZtRFN4

 

Anyway, I daresay it's a small thing, but since Hollywood has stayed away from India and Hindi, I usually don't have to hear this stuff, so it's like a nail on chalkboard every time. 

Edited March 2, 2015 by romantic idiot

[Menrva]

Pretty late to the conversation and I can't really add much to what has already been said. I admit I watched much of the episode with my finger on the FF button.

 

Someone here remarked that they thought it strange that Ray would keep a Vermeer painting so close to a window and I had to agree. It's kind of an obnoxious reminder of how rich Palmer is supposed to be. (There are only 34 genuine Vermeer paintings currently in existence, so they are quite rare and very expensive.) What I got from this episode? Ray Palmer has a thing for 17th century Dutch painters. The other painting shown in his apartment is by Rembrandt, titled "The Jewish Wife", which I found kind of weird and creepy.* Not sure if the set decorators knew that, or if it's some kind of secret clue to Ray's intention to propose to Felicity?

 

Sorry, I tutored Art history in college, so I'm kind of an art nerd.

 

* I wanted to clarify: I don't actually think the painting is weird and creepy; I actually like Rembrandt a lot. And that pose was very common in wedding portraits. I just thought perhaps it was Ray being creepy, like he bought the company Felicity worked for in order to stalk her better, and now he bought this wedding portrait because now he wants to marry her?

Edited March 2, 2015 by Menrva

[romantic idiot]

I figured the set designers had a thing for Dutch painters. And that Felicity did.

[Ang]

The other painting shown in his apartment is by Rembrandt, titled "The Jewish Wife", which I found kind of weird and creepy. Not sure if the set decorators knew that, or if it's some kind of secret clue to Ray's intention to propose to Felicity?

Oh gag, are you serious?! That cannot be accidental. It's disturbing on multiple levels. Also hilarious, but still: disturbing.

The whole deal with the paintings was beyond ridiculous.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Ang

[rue721]

If Oliver was freaking out/having nightmares from when Ra's nearly killed him, why was he going right back to Ra's so that...Ra's could finish the job? I mean, I get why his confidence wasn't sky-high after being stabbed and thrown off a mountain, but I also don't really understand why he thought anything would go differently this time. "Try, try again!" is great except when you just keep trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

 

Roy and Thea were great in this episode imo, but other than them and Oliver and a bunch of characters who are now dead, I don't really care about anyone else on the show.

 

I guess the show figured that Felicity could carry her own separate storyline with Ray, but even though I like Felicity OK as part of Team Arrow, I don't have any interest in her separately. Let alone in a supposed romance with an entitled idiot. And Ray himself is so completely dull. He's such a loser he can't even keep track of his own meal schedule and he's so thoughtless/childish that he buys a bunch of priceless artwork but just throws the paintings up on his walls like they're Salvador Dali prints in a dorm room? How is anyone supposed to find him intriguing or sexy at all? No offense to BR, he's a good looking guy, but Ray just seems completely unattractive as a person.

 

Laurel was fine I guess, but I still don't really understand why she's hanging out with her ex boyfriend and his kid sister, etc. When she told Oliver, "I don't even remember why I ever loved you," I thought, of course she wouldn't, she loved him like 10 years ago when she was a sophomore in college or something. And she's never shown any sign of loving him since he's been back from the island, afaik. I don't have a huge problem with Laurel, it just doesn't make sense to me that she's even a regular. Her connection with these people was Sara, but now that even the ostensible hunt for Sara's killer is over...No idea where they're going with that.

[Menrva]

My other issue (well, let's be honest here, there are so many, but let's focus on one for now) is the bedroom scene between Ray and Felicity. I wasn't thrilled that they slept together, but I also don't expect Felicity to keep herself pure for Oliver, or any nonsense like that. That being said, it was what happened after that irritated me. So Ray is inspired by Felicity's magic vagina, which has the power to anoint superheroes? Is this why Oliver isn't Green Arrow, because he hasn't had sex with Felicity? Admittedly, Barry didn't sleep with Felicity either, but I really don't like how Felicity is being used to legitimize Ray's desire to be a costumed hero. It's another glaring example of how she exists this season merely to support other weaker characters, instead of making all the characters strong and have purpose from the start.

 

Apologies if this doesn't make much sense.

[kismet]

My other issue (well, let's be honest here, there are so many, but let's focus on one for now) is the bedroom scene between Ray and Felicity. I wasn't thrilled that they slept together, but I also don't expect Felicity to keep herself pure for Oliver, or any nonsense like that. That being said, it was what happened after that irritated me. So Ray is inspired by Felicity's magic vagina, which has the power to anoint superheroes? Is this why Oliver isn't Green Arrow, because he hasn't had sex with Felicity? Admittedly, Barry didn't sleep with Felicity either, but I really don't like how Felicity is being used to legitimize Ray's desire to be a costumed hero. It's another glaring example of how she exists this season merely to support other weaker characters, instead of making all the characters strong and have purpose from the start.

 

Apologies if this doesn't make much sense.

Yea, the timing of it was a little awkward. When looked at from different perspectives it is a little icky. I wish they had either made the suit fly or have them sleep together, somehow putting it in the same episode - never mind the same few minutes was just poor time placement in the plot. I wonder if it would have seemed less awkward if Ray had somehow incorporated Felicity in the big discovery. Maybe woke her up to tell her about the big breakthrough or that he was gonna give the suit a try. Since we're supposed to believe that she was so critical to the development of the suit, it would have been nice to have her be there when it finally took flight. It just made Ray's character seem more self-absorbed? Im not sure that is the best adjective, but lets just say it didn't make me think better of Ray or his priorities. Even if they had had Felicity show up unexpectedly behind him on the roof, asking him what he was doing in a cheeky way, that would have been better for me. Because that would have made Felicity seem less like just some LI and more like the brains (or at least part of the brains) behind the project. It also would have reduced the connotation that sleeping with Felicity equals flying suit. But Ray's story has been like this since it started with 1 good beat followed by multiple off/odd beats, that make the story open for criticism that it tends towards the creepy factor. Its also illustrative of how they try to squeeze too much plot into 1 show. There was so much already going on in this episode, that giving Ray 2 major plot developments in about a 5 min span too much. Show us the suit, but I think the flying was a little over the top for this episode. In the end, it makes me feel that perhaps the primary reason Ray slept w/ Felicity was to break his engineering block and not cuz he wanted to sleep with her. I know that Raylicity is not supposed to be this great pairing to end all time, but it would have made me feel less icky about the hook-up. Them sleeping together is not a problem, in fact its perfectly fine that they did. Im happy that Felicity is not just waiting and finally taking action. But its how they're telling the story. I wish they would pay attention to the little details that influence tone.

[Password]

But Ray's story has been like this since it started with 1 good beat followed by multiple off/odd beats, that make the story open for criticism that it tends towards the creepy factor.

Yes.

Im happy that Felicity is not just waiting and finally taking action. But its how they're telling the story. I wish they would pay attention to the little details that influence tone.

And more yes.

Basically my issues with Ray and the Raylicity storyline in 6 lines.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Limbo

[statsgirl]

I guess the show figured that Felicity could carry her own separate storyline with Ray, but even though I like Felicity OK as part of Team Arrow, I don't have any interest in her separately. Let alone in a supposed romance with an entitled idiot. And Ray himself is so completely dull. He's such a loser he can't even keep track of his own meal schedule and he's so thoughtless/childish that he buys a bunch of priceless artwork but just throws the paintings up on his walls like they're Salvador Dali prints in a dorm room?

At least he rotates them with the others that he keeps in the Starling City Museum. Don't want to get bored by the paintings.

 

I still don't know if Felicity could carry her own story because this still isn't Felicity's story, it's Ray's.  Exhibit 1:  we have yet to hear Felicity talk about her feelings about any of this -- about Oliver's push/pull where he pauses in walking away to tell her he loves her, and as soon as he gets back he says something designed to push her away; or how she feels about losing her place in the inner circle of the Team (atomicflea pointed out Felicity's crushed expression as Diggle tells her to get out, along with Laurel and Roy, while he talks to Oliver, a conversation she would have been a part of last season; or how she feels about Ray and his lack of boundaries and his kisses and present.  We're entirely left to guess at what Felicity is feeling since unlike Oliver, who talks to Diggle a lot, she has had no one to talk to all season other than Ray or Laurel, two people who still acquaintances rather than friends.

 

Exhibit 2:  There is a great maxim in Adlerian psychology that goes 'if you want to know why a person does something, look at the result'.  The result of Felicity's whole season, with the exception of her background episode, has been to allow Oliver to alienate himself from her, and to help Ray make his Atom suit.  None of this, including her actions in Nanda Parbat, was about Felicity, it was about Oliver and Ray and to some extent Laurel whom she twice encouraged to go back into the field.  (Shut up, Felicity.)

 

My other issue (well, let's be honest here, there are so many, but let's focus on one for now) is the bedroom scene between Ray and Felicity. I wasn't thrilled that they slept together, but I also don't expect Felicity to keep herself pure for Oliver, or any nonsense like that. That being said, it was what happened after that irritated me. So Ray is inspired by Felicity's magic vagina, which has the power to anoint superheroes? Is this why Oliver isn't Green Arrow, because he hasn't had sex with Felicity? Admittedly, Barry didn't sleep with Felicity either, but I really don't like how Felicity is being used to legitimize Ray's desire to be a costumed hero. It's another glaring example of how she exists this season merely to support other weaker characters, instead of making all the characters strong and have purpose from the start.

I love the magic vagina metaphor.  But it's true, for all that Kreisburg and Guggenheim say this is about Felicity getting her own story and making her own decisions, it really is just about anointing superheroes.  Maybe I should be glad she's not bisexual.

Edited March 3, 2015 by statsgirl

[wingster55]

Sidenote: As a Hindu named Kush I got a kick out of that line.

Rare my name is used (and not as slang for marijuana) 

[Menrva]

One last completely shallow observation and then I swear I'm finished with this episode.

 

When the episode opens with Ra's hanging out in the pool of water, was I the only one thinking, if only it were a hot tub time machine, then we could go back and prevent this whole miserable season from happening!

 

Okay, I'm done now. 

[strikera0]

There was something about this episode that wasn't really clear to me. Did Oliver actually kill all those LOA guards or did he just take them out of commission for a little while? I'm wondering about this because one would think a guy like Oliver, who goes on and on about his precious no-kill rule, would have to show some sort of emotions when he is put in a position where he has to kill again, but instead he didn't bat an eye. So, if he really did kill those people then that's some very bad writing to me.

[Scribbles]

Striker:

When asked about whether Oliver killed the LOA guys, MG said no. 

 

I don't believe they have made it clear enough how Oliver, Dig and Roy are managing to take foes out of action without killing and that became a problem in the LOA fight.

[KirkB]

In their normal day to day actions in Starling I think Oliver uses a lot of grapple/stun arrows and they usually make a point of showing the guy laying on the ground moaning so you know he may be badly injured but alive. And while I can probably accept the idea of Oliver knowing exactly where to put an arrow to bring a guy down the fastest but non-fatally most of the time, their run through Nanda Parbat kind of stretches credibility on that point.

[Starfish35]

And even if Oliver didn't kill anyone it's hard for me to believe that Diggle didn't. Maybe Oliver doesn't care as long as he's not the one pulling the trigger?

[catrox14]

If the LPs are nearby-ish I would think Ra's would just put all of his dead minions in it to keep his army going and crazy.  So maybe Ollie and Dig did possibly kill them but they are resurrected so MG isn't exactly lying?

Edited March 5, 2015 by catrox14

[KirkB]

Hmmm...that might also explain his casually killing so many of them in training or when he's in a bad mood.

[millennium]

Ugh throughout most of it.  The writing is still half-assed.  I can't stand Laurel being part of the team and I badly miss the Oliver/Felicity/Diggle days/dynamic. 

 

 

That about covers it for me.

 

Somehow, Laurel looked very silly in the costume when Nyssa and the Assassins showed up.   Like Halloween party silly.

 

It's pretty sad how Felicity has been sidelined.

 

It occurs to me that there are two shows about Batman on TV right now -- Gotham and Arrow -- and Batman isn't in either one of them.

Edited March 6, 2015 by millennium

[millennium]

There was something about this episode that wasn't really clear to me. Did Oliver actually kill all those LOA guards or did he just take them out of commission for a little while? I'm wondering about this because one would think a guy like Oliver, who goes on and on about his precious no-kill rule, would have to show some sort of emotions when he is put in a position where he has to kill again, but instead he didn't bat an eye. So, if he really did kill those people then that's some very bad writing to me.

They looked pretty dead to me.

[romantic idiot]

MG has confirmed they aren't dead. Make of that what you will.

[millennium]

If they are alive, it was a misstep on MG's part (I don't know who MG is, btw) to make it appear they were killed.   Because many of us got the impression that Oliver left his no-kill code stateside.

[apinknightmare]

If they are alive, it was a misstep on MG's part (I don't know who MG is, btw) to make it appear they were killed. Because many of us got the impression that Oliver left his no-kill code stateside.

MG= Marc Guggenheim. He's the executive producer.

[tv echo]

I think they were killed.  I think MG's response was sarcastic or mocking or whatever - he sounded like a parent humoring a small child: "No, your goldfish isn't really dead.  He's just sleeping."

[kismet]

 

That about covers it for me.

 

Somehow, Laurel looked very silly in the costume when Nyssa and the Assassins showed up.   Like Halloween party silly.

 

It's pretty sad how Felicity has been sidelined.

 

It occurs to me that there are two shows about Batman on TV right now -- Gotham and Arrow -- and Batman isn't in either one of them.

At least Gotham has a young Bruce Wayne in it, whos doing a pretty good job. And Gotham seems to be hitting the right amount of humor, angst, darkness quota. Arrow missing on that mark and since the winter finale there's barely even been the Arrow in Arrow, so its 0 for 3.

[KirkB]

Gotham is mixing dark and angst with humor and the main character actually getting to succeed much of the time. Oliver and Diggle didn't even do that. They didn't so much break into the LoA as sneak through a door Ra's actually held open for them.

[millennium]

I can't even begin to complain about the Ray Palmer storyline.   It's like another show (even worse than Arrow) keeps cutting into the action.   And wasn't Ray Palmer the Atom?   You know, the Mighty Mite?   What's he doing flying around full-size?

 

But I guess that's business as usual on this show.   Green Arrow is Batman and the Atom is Iron Man.

 

How could such a promising show turn to shit so quickly?

[Delphi]

Because the writers didn't want the Atom, they wanted Blue Beetle but DC was all "you can't use our technology inventor random superhero who died years ago here use this one instead...But make him have all the habits, quirks and money of the one we don't want you to use."

Then they went on with their lives going, "we're so smart and have tons of good ideas that make sense ten points to DC Comics.

[millennium]

Then the real problem goes back even a step further: why use a show about Green Arrow to launch the stories of other superheroes, especially when you haven't truly even gotten Green Arrow off the ground yet?   

 

None of it is much fun to think about.   And the Nanda Parbat interiors looked cheap, like something out of the original Star Trek.

[Sakura12]

I think these EP's wanted to do a Batman show, but couldn't. Then they wanted to do a Justice League show but couldn't. Now that they may get their Super Hero Team Up show, I have no idea what they plan on doing with Arrow. 

[statsgirl]

None of it is much fun to think about.   And the Nanda Parbat interiors looked cheap, like something out of the original Star Trek.

OMG!  You're so right,  I thought it looked familiar.

 

Now I want green dancing girls to come out whirling and try to seduce Oliver and Diggle.  (I almost typed "and Malcolm" but then I remembered that he's gay, but he's not really gay, John Barrowman is, but MM was married.  I think I need people's sexual orientation and private lives kept off the show instead of it being hyped at TCA.)

Edited March 6, 2015 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

The other painting shown in his apartment is by Rembrandt, titled "The Jewish Wife",

 

Thank you for identifying it!  I thought they said it was a Vermeer so searched his paintings and came up with nothing.  Not knowing was bugging me.

 

 

 

I can't even begin to complain about the Ray Palmer storyline.   It's like another show (even worse than Arrow) keeps cutting into the action.   And wasn't Ray Palmer the Atom?   You know, the Mighty Mite?   What's he doing flying around full-size?

 

But I guess that's business as usual on this show.   Green Arrow is Batman and the Atom is Iron Man.

 

How could such a promising show turn to shit so quickly?

I suspect they will leave the shrinking part until Ray gets his own show.  (crosses fingers) That would be one bridge too far for me while watching Arrow, the, ahem, grounded in reality show. 

[millennium]

My frustration with this show grows exponentially.   They give you three or four new episodes, then make you wait three weeks for the next one.    Ditto for The Flash (which hasn't aired a new episode since February 17).   It kills the momentum and makes me feel foolish to keep having to check to see if it's airing this week.

 

Actually a lot of shows pull this shit now.   I suppose I'm at a disadvantage, having come up in an era when television seasons lasted 22 episodes that ran fairly consecutively from late September to late May, with only a Christmas hiatus.

 

You would think that in an era when "binge watching" is becoming more and more popular, shows would do everything they can to avoid lengthy interruptions.

[KirkB]

Yeah, it used to be the only time shows were interrupted were on holidays, or doing events like the Olympics. Now they take huge breaks in the middle and a lot of little ones along the way. Half the time even the ones I really like can come back on for an episode or two without my realizing it because I stopped checking the guide and not only does it kill momentum it gives those already having issues with the show time to think and less reason to come back and does little to draw in new viewers for when the show returns.

[chaos is welcome]

So, finally watched this ep. The plot logic was mind boggling.

Positives were. Dig/oliver bromance, dig/lyla stuff, thea/oliver and thea/roy. And the music, which continues to be my fav thing about this show.

Oliver has aikio, pretty sure kid I'd a goner and Oliver will be semi responsible, or at least it will happen under his watch.

Ray was ridiculous.

I still loved Felicity

Laurel just still bores me.

This episode just pointed out the entire faulty, convoluted plot. It's so annoying and illogical, it boggles my mind. I'm glad I waited just because if I didn't know the offer was coming next and is a (probably brief) return to what I enjoyed about the show, I probably would have been raging. Instead, I just laughed at the stupidity. And Ray flying, which was so stupid.

[kismet]

Just finished a rewatch of the ep. Gotta admit, I wasn't that excited for it when I remembered which ep is was. But after watching it, I realized as long as you remove Felicity & Ray's storyline the episode is not as bad as I remember it. That was just really a waste of screentime. Seriously, even on rewatch, I wish I could have just FF through those scenes. Sad when you want to FF through Felicity scenes, happened the 1st time & again this time.

 

But it had some great moments in it where you really understood Oliver & Diggle. Even good character moments for Roy & Thea. Without sounding too snarky it had good moments for why Laurel is such an annoying character. When OQ said "this is why we don't tell you things" I was like preach, really Laurel you make 90% of the problems you get get yourself into.

 

I know many of you are done with JB, but man can he act. He just made that confrontation between him & LL priceless. I really hope the writers can find a way to make his character work with their storyline. I would hate to lose JB & MM, just because the writers don't know how to handle him. He can make so many scenes so much better, but something needs to be done with his character because a lot of his choices during s3 were really questionable & not in a good way. More in a there is no way he would be that stupid or dumb. Plus a lot of OQ's protection of him did get annoying after awhile.

Plus making him the new Ras is either a stroke of genius by the writers or a stroke of complete idiocy by OQ. Part of me thinks its both.

 

Overall there were scenes, that I didn't remember were so good. All I got say is the OQ & JD chained moment, still gets me in the feels. And I loved the way a lot of the scenes were shot. It really was a nicely shot episode. That being said there were still major moments of duh that was the signature of s3.

[statsgirl]

I didn't mean to rewatch this but it was on, and I noticed in the credits that the story was by Wendy Mericle and Ben Sokolowski and I was curious since she's going to be a showrunner, and so I watched, at least up to the point where Diggle told everyone to leave and Felicity went to Ray and slept with him. Then I was out.  The rejection of Felicity is never not going to bug me and even scenes with Oliver and Diggle chained do not make up for it.

 

It wasn't as bad as I remember, maybe because I can see how it fits into the season now.  I liked Thea telling Laurel she had killed Sara and Laurel not getting angry at her, I laughed when Thea told Roy Oliver had told her not to tell anyone and Roy was all "meh, I already know that" and Laurel telling Oliver she didn't know why she had ever loved him was a treat. 

 

The fighting heirarchy still makes no sense.  Malcolm can fight off Thea and Oliver together, Nyssa can defeat Malcolm, but Oliver can defeat Nyssa, which goes to the question of why does he need Malcolm?

 

Ra's telling Nyssa that Sara was going to leave her anyway so he's not pushing to find her killer was a WTH? moment.

 

The Felicity/Ray scenes weren't as bad as I remember them, although I did skip the last one. She is cute telling him that when Palmer disappears for weeks, Palmer Tech stock goes down, and then freezing him out of his own program, and scruff makes Ray look less creepy and more vulnerable.  In theory it was not a bad idea; in practice it had been too long that Felicity had been pushed out of the Team Arrow emotional interactions and this episode was the last straw for me. 

Too bad it was to get even worse in the next four episodes.

  The final scene when Ray lunges was just too clumsy as a culmination of their interactions.

[kismet]

When I first watched it, I remember being hurt that Dig dismissed FS with everyone else in the Verdant scene. It felt off & hurtful. But on rewatch, I realized it wasn't about him dismissing FS, as much as him just wanting 1on1 time with OQ. He simply asked for the room, there was no real dismissal of everyone. He probably felt he could reach OQ better and get to the bottom of what was going on if it was only the 2 of them. Plus everybody else had already spoken their opinion, so there was no need for everyone there. It wasn't really a Team Arrow discussion. OQ made it clear that there was no discussion to be had. Dig just wanted to speak his piece in private.

 

In the previous scene, OQ had dismissed everyone from the lair, so at that point it was not a TA matter anymore. It was a OQ matter, so once I realized it had nothing to do with TA, FS leaving with the group in the latter scene made sense. She had spent most of the time since his return, removing her opinion from OQ matters. Her leaving with the group was symptomatic of the choices she was making post his return to distance herself from OQ. That's as much on her as it is on OQ or Dig. She was present in the lair for TA issues & saving the city. But this saving MM, was not a TA issue or concern. It had nothing to do with the mission to save the city. Plus in the previous scenes, FS had verbally aligned herself with LL regarding MM & they both were against rescuing him. So that in addition to her known opinions on MM & subsequent icing of her partnership with OQ over MM probably made Dig think that having her around for his 1on1 with OQ was only going to be counterproductive. So it makes sense that he would not ask her to stay.

 

Sadly, this was just another example of the fact that Team Arrow was no longer Team Arrow. FS said they couldn't go back to things the way they were before OQ's return a few eps prior. Sometimes you get what you ask for. It was sad to watch both times. But on rewatch it made complete sense to me that Dig & OQ would have a 1on1 conversation about MM.

[statsgirl]

Felicity didn't so much remove her opinion from OQ matters as Oliver refused to let her talk.   I think the only reason things couldn't go back to the way they were was because the writers were forcing Raylicity and isolated!stupid!Oliver.  I could understand why it had to be a one-on-one with Diggle if they had balanced it with a scene between Oliver and Felicity.  But they had been excluding Felicity from that kind of intimate scene with Oliver since the ending of "Sara".

 

In the previous scene, OQ had dismissed everyone from the lair, so at that point it was not a TA matter anymore. It was a OQ matter ...She was present in the lair for TA issues & saving the city. But this saving MM, was not a TA issue or concern. It had nothing to do with the mission to save the city.

Don't forget, Diggle had also clearly stated that he was opposed to Oliver working with MM so it wasn't just Felicity who opposed it.

 

I agree that it wasn't a case of saving the city, but I think it was a case of saving Oliver himself. This wasn't the first time that Oliver had tried to sacrifice himself foolishly or that he had to be saved from himself. But it was the first time that Felicity was deliberately excluded and Diggle was the only one there for Oliver.    In other seasons, it was both Diggle and Felicity trying to talk to Oliver together (e.g. 2x21), or each having their own scene with Oliver.

 

Just as Felicity had to be isolated from everyone else so that she would go to Ray and sleep with him, Oliver was isolated from everyone but Diggle so that they could have their bonding scenes in Draw Back Your Bow and Nanda Parbat.  This wouldn't have bothered me if he had had scenes with Felicity too to balance that but the only scene they had alone was in 3x12 when she told him she couldn't believe he was going to work with the devil MM and he told her he was, no discussion, period ("My way or the highway").  The exclusion of Felicity through the whole season but especially in this episode was aggravating since Oliver's Hero's Journey was tied as much to her as it was to Diggle.  Suddenly she was Penelope, weaving back at home while Odysseus fought his battles with his male companions.. 

[Chaser]

This episode really highlighted that they were trying to separate Team Arrow. That is how I saw it. We only got one or two scenes the entire season of the original three. I get there being tension between Oliver and Felicity but there is no way Diggle wouldn't have told them to forget about it for now. Instead we have the next episode, with Felicity casually mentioning she talked to Diggle as like a tag team. They could have had a scene of all three of them.

[tv echo]

315 (Nanda Parbat) – No Oliver Queen voiceover intro.

315 (Nanda Parbat) – Felicity stops by Ray's apartment to find out why he's been absent from Palmer Tech:
Felicity: "So he is alive. There were doubts. Do you have any idea what happens to the stock price of Palmer Technologies when Palmer goes missing for a week. Whoaa."
Ray: "It's been a week? I've been a little distracted. I can't get the gauntlet module to interface with the helmet system. I've been working the problem, but I can't -"
Felicity: "Stop!" 
Ray: "Yeah, I imagined you'd say that, but this is the last step towards the suit becoming operational, and a little facial hair is a small price to pay -"
Felicity: "Stop! This is a subsonic ionizer. If you try to use it on quadband circuitry, it could result -"
Ray: "In a catalytic reaction that could destroy the entire building. Oops." 
Felicity: "Oops? You need to get some sleep." 
Ray: "I will - once I've cracked the problem." 
Felicity: "Or blow yourself up?" 
Ray: "Whichever comes first." 
Oliver: "Ray?" 
Ray: "When those men killed Anna, I promised myself I would never feel that helpless again. So, can you even imagine how I felt when Brick's men took a portion of the city hostage?"
Felicity: "Lousy. We all did. But if you're punishing yourself -"
Ray: "I'm not - I'm not punishing myself. I'm focused on the task at hand."
Felicity: "Too focused. Clearly." 
Ray: "I'm sorry, but I've got a lot of work to do."

315 (Nanda Parbat) – After Thea confesses to Laurel that she killed Sara while drugged by Malcolm, Laurel confronts Oliver about lying to her:
(Oliver is training in the Arrow Bunker, when Laurel enters.)
Laurel: “I can't remember Sara's smile. It's weird, isn't it? I mean, I know Sara used to smile and - and laugh. But when I close my eyes and I try and picture it, all I see is the way that I found her. You know, sometimes, the only thing that keeps me going is the thought of one day finding her killer.”
Oliver: “We will. I promise.”
Laurel: "How do you do that?"
Oliver: "Do what?"
Laurel: "Lie. Right to my face. Thea told me, Oliver. She told me everything. How could you keep this from me?"
Oliver: "After what you wanted to do to Lacroix and Merlyn? Do you really need to ask me that question?"
Laurel: "I'm not so consumed with vengeance that I blame Thea for Sara's death. I blame Malcolm Merlyn."
Oliver: "I need him."
Laurel: "He murdered my sister."
Oliver: "With the League targeting us, he is the only chance I have of saving mine. This is how it has to be."
Laurel: "It's really amazing... the way Merlyn always finds a way under your protection."
Oliver: "I'm sorry, Laurel."
Laurel: "You know, it's hard to remember a time when I was actually in love with you."

315 (Nanda Parbat) – Oliver tells his team that they have to rescue Malcolm from the League of Assassins:
Oliver: "Where is she? Hey! I told you that Merlyn is off limits!"
Laurel: "I know. And then I realized that I didn't really give a damn."
Oliver: "This is why I keep secrets from you. Because you let your emotions dictate your actions, and it is gonna get you killed. Did you really think that you had a chance against Malcolm Merlyn?"
Diggle: "Nyssa and the League kidnapped Merlyn."
Oliver: "I know. Thea traded Merlyn for safety. She was able to contact the League because they are in town on the hunt."
Diggle: "Merlyn has a video of Thea killing Sara. First thing he's gonna do is show that to Ra's. Then we're right back at square one." 
Oliver: "That video was a bluff to make me challenge Ra's. Merlyn loves Thea. He would never just serve her up. (Sighs) We have to get him back."
Laurel: "What?"
Felicity: "Yeah. I'm with her, because it just sounded like you wanted to rescue Malcolm Merlyn from the League." 
Oliver: "My sister did this because she is angry. Eventually, she will settle down and realize that she basically just killed her own father. There's no coming back from that. The guilt will just eat away at her until there is nothing left. Please."
Felicity: "I'll start with the private airfields."
Laurel: "No. Oliver, Merlyn murdered my sister and corrupted yours and now you want to save him?"
Oliver: "I'm trying to save Thea's soul."
Laurel: "You're out of your mind."
Oliver: "And you don't need to be here." (Laurel leaves) 
Felicity: "I got something. Unless it's a big, fat coincidence that the security cameras at Starling City Aviation just went dark."
Oliver: "I'll handle it."

315 (Nanda Parbat) – Nyssa tells Oliver the location of Nanda Parbat:
(Nyssa is now in the cage in the Arrowcave.)
Diggle: "So what's the play? Trade her for Malcolm?"
Oliver: "Ra's will not make that deal. Even for his own daughter."
Laurel (entering): "What are you doing with her?" 
Oliver: "She's a source of information... and leverage. I need the room."
Laurel: "You're gonna torture her to find out where Nanda Parbat is?"
Oliver: "I need the room. Everyone clear out."
Diggle: "Oliver, listen. I know what you're doing and I know why you're doing it. But you can't save Thea's soul at the cost of your own." (Diggle, Felicity, Roy and Laurel leave)
Oliver (to Nyssa): "Laurel was right. I need to know where Nanda Parbat is."
Nyssa: "Was she also correct you intend to torture me for that information?"
Oliver: "No. Because we know I won't have to."
Nyssa: "You placed Sara's killer under your protection. Your every action has been aimed towards the frustration of justice. I will gladly tell you where to find my home... because you will die there."
*  *  *
Roy: "It's like Mission: Impossible in here."
Diggle: "Yeah, that's the idea. Make it impossible for the League to get the drop on us."
Roy: "I thought Thea got us off their hit list."
Diggle: "Yeah, that was before we put Ra's Al Ghul's daughter in a box."
Laurel: "Taking prisoners now. Isn't that crossing a line?"
Felicity: "Actually, Oliver has an entire prison on Lian Yu. Maybe I shouldn't have told you that."
Oliver (entering): "Nanda Parbat is hidden beneath the Hindu Kush."
Diggle: "That was quick."
Oliver: "She wanted to tell me. Thinks I'm gonna die there."
Felicity: "She's not the only one. I understand facing Ra's when you were doing it for Thea, but -"
Oliver: "I am doing it for Thea."
Roy: "Look, I may not agree with it, but I understand what you're trying to say. You don't want Thea to live with the guilt of getting her own father killed. But how is her brother dying any better?"
Oliver: "I don't plan on dying."
Felicity: "That's what you said the last time you went to go face Ra's, and how did that turn out for you?"
Laurel: "Oliver, I'm about as angry with you right now than I've been with anyone in my life, but that doesn't mean I want you going on a suicide mission."
Oliver (to Diggle): "You're unusually quiet."
Diggle: "Yeah. Guys, want to give us a minute? (The others leave) So, Thea served up Merlyn. You want to save her from regretting that decision. Yeah, I get it."
Oliver: "But?"
Diggle: "But Oliver, I can't shake the feeling that there's something more at play here."
Oliver: "It's Thea. Plain and simple." 
Diggle: "Are you sure?"
Oliver: "Right now, it's the only thing I am sure about."

315 (Nanda Parbat) – Felicity locks Ray out of the Palmer Tech server in order to force him to eat, shower and sleep:
Ray: "What the hell?"
(Felicity enters Ray's apartment.)
Felicity: "Did you get locked out of the Palmer Technologies server? That's a shame."
Ray: "You did this?"
Felicity: "I just came from a friend of mine who has his head shoved so far up his colon that - and I'm pretty sure this is true - he's literally going to get himself killed. Him, I can't do anything about. You're a different story." 
Ray: "Great. Why don't you tell me the story while you unlock the atom subroutine directory?" 
Felicity: "You have two options, Ray. Option one, you can find a way to break through the encryption that I used to lock up your server, which, by my calculations, will take you roughly 6.25 hours. Or, you can use that time to eat a proper meal, take a shower, and get no less than 5 hours of sleep, at the completion of which I will give you the password."
Ray: "I see."
Felicity: "It's your choice, but I highly recommend option two, because this whole situation has gone from endearingly eccentric to creepily not okay."
Ray: "If I had the energy, I think I'd be getting angry right now, but instead... I'll just take option two."
Felicity: "That's a wise choice. After your dinner and a shower, I am taking you straight to bed - putting you. (Whispering) Why do I do that?"

315 (Nanda Parbat) – After Ray eats and showers, Felicity and Ray end up kissing, etc.:
(While Ray showers, Felicity wanders around his apartment and admires the great art on the walls.)
Felicity: "Shut. Up. Is this an actual Van Gogh - (Ray exits bathroom, wearing only a towel around his waist) Oh!"
Ray: "It's a Vermeer actually. I rotate the paintings out here with my collection at Starling Museum. Yeah. I'm really into the Dutch Masters this month for some reason." 
Felicity: "You're very attractive. I mean, they're -"
Ray: "You were right."
Felicity: "Hmm?"
Ray: "Food was delicious, the shower was amazing. Thank you for insisting on it." 
Felicity: "Well, a deal's a deal. Password's inside."
Ray: "You didn't have to blackmail me. I trust your judgment. In fact, I pretty much depend on it."
Felicity: "Well, that would make you the only one."
Ray: "You know, I can be as obsessive and stubborn as the next billionaire, but I do know the value of somebody calling me on it, telling me when the emperor has no clothes."
Felicity: "Speaking of."
Ray: "Heh. Right. Uh... you know what? Sometimes, I forget that we work together. When I'm with you, just you. I don't think about work or the mission or -" (Felicity kisses him)
Felicity: "I'm sorry." 
Ray: "I'm not." (He kisses her.)

Edited February 21, 2020 by tv echo