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S06.E05: Sounding

ElectricBoogaloo

By ElectricBoogaloo
in Justified [V]

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lulee

lulee

Raylan, what the hell are you doing?

 

I Iove me some Constable Bob.

 

There may have be actual lasers coming out of Avery's eyes when he talked sternly to Ty after he dared ask permission to speak up.

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soapfaninnc

soapfaninnc

Oh Mikey. You and your 'Aplex' is the hardest I've laughed at any character on this show. Yes, I'm including Dewey "Four Kidneys" Crowe.

Damn, Albert held up. Danny Strong's having a hell of a year.

 

That was right up there with Dewey's 'the anus is on you'. 

 

Things just got reaaaaaalllllly interesting!

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Blakeston

Blakeston

Two things I'm wondering:

 

1. What was the timeline re: finding Albert Fekus? It looked like the marshals got to his place, and realized that the criminals got to him first. But then he's in a hotel room, and then we found out that the marshals already talked to him before Wynn showed up.

 

2. Are we supposed to think that Ava has money she hid away somewhere? Or was she just trying to rip off Limehouse? Or do we not know?

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tennisgurl

tennisgurl

(edited)

Oh my God, Apex! This dialogue is amazing. 

 

The parade of characters past keep coming. I don't know if Constable Bob is going to come back, but this was a pretty great exit for him if its the last time we see him. And Limehouse is back! I feel like this show is going to end with all the characters and story-lines from over the years coming together, and exploding. I cant wait! 

Edited by tennisgurl
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spaceytraci1208

spaceytraci1208

(edited)

Ava...I think Boyd is smart enough to realize that your extra-special cooking can only mean bad things are coming.

I just realized that "Choo-Choo" talks like some weird combination of Elvis and Shaq. He's awesome

Edited by spaceytraci1208
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AuntiePam

AuntiePam

Made me anxious that Raylan keeps insisting on talking to Ava in person.  It was bad enough that he shows up at the motel last week, but now he goes to her house?  When Boyd can show up at any minute?  Ticks me off, the way he's using her, and then the kiss -- that's just mean.

 

Rachel and Tim -- they don't even check to see that Duffy and ChooChoo have gone before the leave the motel room. 

 

ChooChoo's manner of speaking is a copy of Linder from The Bridge.  It's annoying.

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benteen

benteen

(edited)

Geez, Raylan, what are you doing?  Go ahead and blow another case against Boyd.  I know that Elmore Leonard characters aren't supposed to learn anything but I don't find that appealing.

 

I thought this episode was alright.  Not great.  Actually kind of disappointing, especially the Ava storyline.  I liked the returns of Constable Bob and Limehouse.  Choo Choo continues to be a hoot.  "How about some skim milk?  Do you have skim milk?"

Edited by benteen
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ruby24

ruby24

Ugh, I can't believe they're bringing back this whole Raylan/Ava thing. First of all, it's been SO LONG since any of that was happening, and for the last five seasons it's been a pretty solid Ava/Boyd pairing, hasn't it? So, why are they doing this now- are we supposed to think Ava never really loved Boyd at all? Because that's actually really hard to believe, since she's been all in with him for so long, and developing some of her own criminal activity, etc. I really thought the Raylan thing had to be dead and done with (which was good because I hated them in the first season, and the only time I warmed to Ava was when she was a true part of the criminal gang).

 

I don't like that. It also just makes her look really stupid- she has to realize that he's using her. If anything, Boyd was always upfront with her about his motivations and all.

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dohe

dohe

(edited)

Two things I'm wondering:

 

1. What was the timeline re: finding Albert Fekus? It looked like the marshals got to his place, and realized that the criminals got to him first. But then he's in a hotel room, and then we found out that the marshals already talked to him before Wynn showed up.

 

2. Are we supposed to think that Ava has money she hid away somewhere? Or was she just trying to rip off Limehouse? Or do we not know?

I will have to go back to watch again for question 2.  As for question 1, originally Tim and Rachel were going to Fekus's house.  They noticed that guy watching the house.  So they would have called Fekus and told him to go to the hotel room - one with an adjacent room connected by a door.  Arriving first they do the set up.  Then when Fekus arrives, they give him the story knowing that he is being watched and will be followed.  Fekus is living at his parents.  Wynn's concern was when to talk with Fekus with no one else around.  That hotel gives Wynn what he thinks is the chance.

 

ChooChoo's way of speaking is supposed to illustrate the damage he took from, what I believe they said, was shrapnel.  I like the inconsistency in thought because it feels right.  Common sense is completely lacking but he can pick up on a bartender skimming.  

 

As for Tim and Rachel immediately leaving, I think that is a no use wasting time with the obvious in the scene type move.  We could have shown them taking time to check but it is more fun to show the haste so we can see how little Tim and Rachel are concerned about Fekus with Tim getting in that shot about how Fekus set up Ava.    

 

Regarding Ava kissing Raylan.  I think this has to be seen in context of the entire show and where Ava is now at in her life.  I think Ava's action makes sense.  Here is a person who ended up choosing to be with Boyd.  What has she gotten from that.  Yes she loves Boyd but her life has been all but destroyed.  She has been involved in several horrific scenarios.  She has been sent to jail.  She has now been placed in a situation where she gives up Boyd or goes back to jail.  Her dreams have fallen apart.  Her attempt to escape has fallen apart. So here she is with the other person she could have been with and, in that moment - vulnerable, broken, without hope - she tries to connect with that moment where there was hope in the future.  Just as her cooking that grand breakfast for Boyd was a reminder of a comforting past with an awareness that that can't ever be again, her kiss of Raylan is a stab at a moment that has passed her by.  The sequence is not about a set up for a continuation of a love triangle even if it may touch on it some in the next episode.  It is about a recognition of the path taken and what has been lost in her life.   

 

Great to see Oswalt and Williamson back.  But the big excitement was Jeff Fahey!  And the sequence between Walker and Avery - just intense!

Edited by dohe
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thuganomics85

thuganomics85

"Aplex."  Really, Mikey?  Duffy really doesn't keep you around for your brains, I imagine.  Scrabble seems to be a unsung hero for the show: one of my favorite moments from a past season was Boyd and Tim playing it, when Tim was watching him for some reason.  Only thing that might have topped it was Duffy's reaction to Katherine's grand-kids.  I think Duffy and any kids in general is a recipe for awkwardness.  Oh, and the the scene with Albert too.  A lot of great stuff with Duffy tonight.

 

Wished we got more of Tim/Rachel together, but I enjoyed the brief glimpses.  Especially them clearly not giving a damn that Albert was almost tazed to death.  Still fun to think that the guy is the same one who is partially responsible to bringing one of the biggest shows of 2015 to FOX.  It's good to be Danny Strong!

 

Not a lot of brilliant moves from Ava and Raylan tonight.  Ava just flat-out panicked and would have probably gotten herself killed every quickly, had it not been for the save from Raylan and Bob (Bob!).  But, then, Raylan's now decided he's just to wait around at the house, until Boyd shows back up.  Is he just trying to blow up the case?  Does he want Boyd to drawl on him, so he has an excuse to finally shoot him, again?  At this rate, I think all three of them are heading to the afterlife, by the end of this season.

 

Not much of Avery and Ty this time, although their one scene continues to show that Avery is menacing enough that he's managed to make a Garrett Dillahunt character turn meek.  Sea Bass and Choo-Choo's "interrogation" went as well as I expected.  Oh, you two: I don't think Ty is going to be happy.  And, apparently, Choo-Choo really doesn't like it when the waitresses skim from the register.  Nope, not one bit.

 

Glad to see Limehouse again, and how he knows just how far he can trust anyone on this show.  He better be left standing, because he really is one of those characters who will always stay ahead of the game, because he knows when to quit.

 

So, Boyd has now roped a uncle of Ava's into his plan.  I'm sure that is going to come into play.  Especially since it's Jeff Fahey.  You don't just get him for a minor role.

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Artsda

Artsda

 Ava runs, Raylan goes after her and says it's not safe but he comes into the house with her and is kissing her? When Boyd can come in at anytime? That seems all types of dumb and I guess we're paralleling season 1 where Raylan's learned nothing.

 

Isn't his whole purpose of this case to wrap it up to move to Winonna and his baby? If he has to sex up Ava in the mean time, as long as he gets the job done? 

 

Boyd's coming out the smarted and most likable of the trio.

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Swaig

Swaig

(edited)

"Here Boyd... I made you a delicious breakfast. It's your favorite. Now go and sit in the death chair."

Not suspicious at all. Well played, Ava. Well played.

Oh, and while "aplex" may not be a word, Amtrak makes one hell of a verb. The things you learn on Justified.

Edited by Swaig
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ruby24

ruby24

(edited)

Ava's actions this season make her of the last four years a lie, imo. Because I seem to remember her actively deciding to join Boyd in his life of crime, knowing full well what the risks were and what the life was. And participating fully and wanting to, and the show making it pretty clear that she did love him- but now she wants Raylan again? I think this only makes sense if she never really loved Boyd to begin with, but I guess I'd been pretty fooled into thinking that she did all this time.

 

Also, was there anyone who wanted to see Raylan and Ava get back together? Seriously, anyone? I was so glad that that misguided triangle seemed dead and buried years ago, to bring that back now in the last season is lame. I also thought Raylan wanted Winona and the baby, haven't they been stating that for years too? This just seems like revisionist stuff going on to bring up plots that were originally going in the first season (which is by far one of the lesser seasons) when they had successfully moved on past the stuff happening back then that didn't work. Ugh, I loved this show so much for so long, I'm going to be really upset if they end it in a disappointing fashion. I assume Ava's going to die tragically, but at this point I'm not going to care because they made her such a waffling waif this year.

Edited by ruby24
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justmehere

justmehere

now she wants Raylan again?

 

 

She's terrified, and he's the only one who can possibly keep her safe right now. She needed to connect and so reached out to her only hope.

 

As for Raylan: Idiot.

 

I'm loving all the previous-season characters showing up. But I totally agree with this:

 

This season is intense.  I feel on edge every single episode.

 

 

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soapfaninnc

soapfaninnc

(edited)

She's terrified, and he's the only one who can possibly keep her safe right now. She needed to connect and so reached out to her only hope.

 

As for Raylan: Idiot.

 

I'm loving all the previous-season characters showing up. But I totally agree with this:

 

 

I admit to being 'aplexed' when Ava kissed Raylan - at first.

 

But, Ava did that out of sheer desperation and terror.  She's flashing back to after she killed Bowman and how Raylan came riding up on his horse to 'save' her. She's not thinking that Ava's been saving Ava all these years - not Boyd, not Raylan. She's just plain scared.

 

Actually, if the previews are any indication I think this might be a good move on Raylan's part. If he triggers Boyd's jealously of Ava, coupled with Wynn thinking that Fecas was telling the truth, then the suspicion of Ava goes away for a good bit longer.  He and Boyd will verbally spar and Boyd's focus will be on Raylan - not Ava. 

 

I don't think either Raylan or Ava want to really go back there.  There was an attraction - probably mostly physical - and that's probably always going to be there. She panicked and Raylan's been pretty celibate this season - unusual for him. It was a moment but I don't think much will come of it down the road. 

 

This season is a work of art so far. Avery Markham scares me and Katherine telling those kids she'd lock them in the closet? I hope they believed her cause I sure as hell did. 

Edited by soapfaninnc
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lulee

lulee

I am hopeful and I doub that one kiss doesn't portend a full rekindling of an Ava and Raylan relationship. These characters have a long history, as the phone conversation between Raylan and Bob reminded us. Ava's feeling trapped and vulnerable and looking to Raylan to help.

Ava's absolutely been honestly in love with Boyd, but it's been complicated at times. Last season in jail, she was dependent on him and desperate for his help, but then it became clear to her that getting her out was not his top priority at times. Since then, I think she may still love him, but he knows she can't trust him.

Raylan's had a recurring problem with little Raylan doing his thinking. And unless I missed something, the show hasn't indicated any firm commitment to Winona as much as a stated commitment to moving to Florida to be with baby Willa ... And Winona. So he might feel a little free to just go with little Raylan.

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dohe

dohe

Ava's actions this season make her of the last four years a lie, imo. Because I seem to remember her actively deciding to join Boyd in his life of crime, knowing full well what the risks were and what the life was. And participating fully and wanting to, and the show making it pretty clear that she did love him- but now she wants Raylan again? I think this only makes sense if she never really loved Boyd to begin with, but I guess I'd been pretty fooled into thinking that she did all this time.

 

Also, was there anyone who wanted to see Raylan and Ava get back together? Seriously, anyone? I was so glad that that misguided triangle seemed dead and buried years ago, to bring that back now in the last season is lame. I also thought Raylan wanted Winona and the baby, haven't they been stating that for years too? This just seems like revisionist stuff going on to bring up plots that were originally going in the first season (which is by far one of the lesser seasons) when they had successfully moved on past the stuff happening back then that didn't work. Ugh, I loved this show so much for so long, I'm going to be really upset if they end it in a disappointing fashion. I assume Ava's going to die tragically, but at this point I'm not going to care because they made her such a waffling waif this year.

Ava has deeply loved Boyd for years but her life is screwed up because she went into that relationship.  She is in a horrible position and her life is a wreck.  She has responsibility for her actions but she could not be in a larger position of vulnerability and fear. 

 

Here are her choices.

 

1.  Don't go along with the feds and end up back in prison for goodness knows how long where her life is terrible, where she can be beaten or killed at any moment as her friend was last year. 

 

2.  Work with the feds which she has and where her life is in imminent danger and she has to betray the person she loves.

 

That's an awful position.  The reality is Boyd was unable, for all his big words, to protect her in prison.  But now, even on the outside, she is not only in this terrible position but Boyd has placed her life in jeopardy by getting ready to mess with Avery again.  Ava sat there as Avery, an imposing figure if there has ever been one on this show, basically said she and Boyd are going to die if they mess with Avery again.  And here comes Boyd going hey I got an idea how we can mess with Avery again. 

 

Plus she knows Boyd has his concerns she has turned for the state and that Boyd's associates are on to her.   

 

This is not about love triangles.  It is not about Ava living a lie unless that lie was thinking Boyd was good for her.  This is a person in way over her head and seeing Raylan as the only tough, strong person who may actually be able to save her and her being confronted with her choices.  She is scared and I don't blame her.

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cassandle

cassandle

(edited)

Rachel and Tim -- they don't even check to see that Duffy and ChooChoo have gone before the leave the motel room. 

 

 

As for Tim and Rachel immediately leaving, I think that is a no use wasting time with the obvious in the scene type move.  We could have shown them taking time to check but it is more fun to show the haste so we can see how little Tim and Rachel are concerned about Fekus with Tim getting in that shot about how Fekus set up Ava.    

 

Tim does peek out the window when Rachel is checking on Albert, but I agree, it's silly to think Duffy had left so quickly.  And they didn't even bother taking the equipment out of the room?  That was weird too.  If they had just left through the connecting door it probably wouldn't have been so awkward.  

 

Wished we got more of Tim/Rachel together, but I enjoyed the brief glimpses.  Especially them clearly not giving a damn that Albert was almost tazed to death.  Still fun to think that the guy is the same one who is partially responsible to bringing one of the biggest shows of 2015 to FOX.  It's good to be Danny Strong!

 

Rachel's little patronizing face slap and Tim's fist bump were my favorite things last night.  The fist bump and Tim's, "Thank you for your service," were both call backs to things he's done in the past which pleased me to no end.

 

Raylan's had a recurring problem with little Raylan doing his thinking. And unless I missed something, the show hasn't indicated any firm commitment to Winona as much as a stated commitment to moving to Florida to be with baby Willa ... And Winona. So he might feel a little free to just go with little Raylan.

 

On one of the commentaries Graham Yost said women are Raylan's blind spot.  Whether it's Lindsey or Winona or Ava he has a problem keeping his head when a beautiful woman is involved.  There was a scene in Season 3, I think, when Raylan first moves into the bar after Winona left him and Ava visits and he kisses her the second she sits down.  They did that to mirror their first meeting so it's not something new between the two of them.  That being said, it bugged me too.  I think he's being slightly nicer to Ava than in the start of the season, but he's still being kind of a dick.  Yes, Ava belongs in prison for Delroy's murder and she should be grateful she's out, but barking orders at her and showing up in the hardware store in front of all of Harlan is not helpful and it's driving her to do stupid things like run away.

 

Finally, I found it very unsettling that Avery could freak out Ty so much.  Ty came in strong as such a scary/creepy guy it's hard to imagine someone out-threatening him--but boy, he looked scared last night.  Love these villains.  

Edited by cassandle
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lulee

lulee

Finally, I found it very unsettling that Avery could freak out Ty so much.  Ty came in strong as such a scary/creepy guy it's hard to imagine someone out-threatening him--but boy, he looked scared last night.  Love these villains.  

I know. They have real menace. Makes me almost forget about Daryl Crowe ... almost.

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Ohwell

Ohwell

I'm not gonna lie.  I would love to see Ava and Raylan get out alive and go off together.

 

It was nice to see Constable Bob and snarling Limehouse again.  Nice to see Errol too, but I have to admit I laughed when he fell down like a tree trunk when Bob tazed him.  

 

Choo Choo's voice really is annoying but I expect he'll be shut up for good pretty soon. 

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Ohwell

Ohwell

Also, if I'm not mistaken, back in Season 1 (or 2?) didn't Ava want Raylan and was disappointed when he went back to Winona?  Seems like I remember her sitting in a car in front of Winona's house and seeing Raylan go in.  I just remember the look of hurt and disappointment on her face.  I always got the impression that she "settled" for Boyd.

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AuntiePam

AuntiePam

Did Raylan take Ava back to Limehouse's place to get her car?  If he didn't, how's Ava going to explain where it is?  If he did, then how did he placate Limehouse and Erroll?  The scene in the hardware store with Constable Bob was fun to watch but it wasn't necessary.  Erroll's not in on what's going on so all Raylan had to do was say "Excuse us, I need to talk to Ava." 

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Febgirl

Febgirl

That kiss was most definitely a kiss made out of desperation.  Still didn't like seeing it, though.

 Raylan really is putting all of his eggs in the Ava basket, it seems.  From engineering the roadblock,  to engaging Constable Bob, he's so bent on getting Boyd as his last stand that he is ignoring the bigger picture, whatever that may be. 

And Ava, really? Did you think that informing on Boyd would just leave you with cash? Of course  the Witsec life  that you're dreading is the only reasonable outcome.

I can't wait to see what happens 

next week when Mr.Limehouse gives Boyd a call. Shit's gonna hit the fan....

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Febgirl

Febgirl

Considering the title of this episode, I had this fear that the prison guard would be tortured in a totally different way.

 

 

Ha!  My mind went there, too!  That's what I get for listening to Dan Savage's podcast ;)

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justmehere

justmehere

Actually, if the previews are any indication I think this might be a good move on Raylan's part. If he triggers Boyd's jealously of Ava, coupled with Wynn thinking that Fecas was telling the truth, then the suspicion of Ava goes away for a good bit longer.  He and Boyd will verbally spar and Boyd's focus will be on Raylan - not Ava.

 

 

Interesting idea. Maybe his comment about sticking around for a while had a different meaning than I thought. I hope this - or something similar - is the case rather than Raylan again being completely blind about women. I'd like to give him more credit than that.

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greenbean

greenbean

Choo Choo. Yes he provides some comedy, but it doesn't ring true that a supposed organised criminal gang, would associate with someone so "challenged" and who is a major liability. Both Ty and that other guy, can't stand him. They mock him and think he's stupid. So then why have they involved him in their operation? Choo Choo's involvement seems really out of place to me.

 

Ava and Raylon. I agree with others, I think she's desperate and was maybe looking to get Raylan invested in her wellbeing. She kissed him right after she accused him of only caring about the case. From her expression at the end, she did not want Raylan to stay, so I don't think this relationship is back on. Rather the stint in prison was a pivotal moment for her, and she's now looking to survive.

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cassandle

cassandle

Choo Choo. Yes he provides some comedy, but it doesn't ring true that a supposed organised criminal gang, would associate with someone so "challenged" and who is a major liability. Both Ty and that other guy, can't stand him. They mock him and think he's stupid. So then why have they involved him in their operation? Choo Choo's involvement seems really out of place to me.

 

I'm guessing it's a brothers-in-arms kind of relationship.  Choo Choo may have been a pretty badass soldier before the shrapnel. Maybe they remember that version of him and are angry at what he turned into but too sentimental to let him go.

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Yemayah

Yemayah

(edited)

Bringing over what I posted on another board.  I am really puzzled by this CI agreement, which is constantly used to threaten to send Ava back to prison. Thatdon'tmakenosense, as the saying goes. I can suspend a whole boatload of belief for my favorite show, even though it is asking a lot of this old DUSM, but I can do it for a bigger payoff, such as the episode Decoy.  Frankly, I don't see anything they have to threaten to return Ava to prison. Until this episode, there was no evidence Albert was around much less had recanted.
 
I thought Ava was so fearful of being returned to prison because (1) Raylan/Vazquez told Ava and her lawyer to feed this bogus recantation story to Boyd to cover her sudden release in exchange for being a federal CI, or (2) they knew there was no recanting but fed this bogus story to Ava-who believed it- to get her to sign on as a CI.  If the latter scenario is true, then that violates federal guidelines for CI agreements and would land Raylan and Vazquez in serious hot water. So #1 is more likely.
 
Now, if Albert actually recanted (that cellmate as well), that means there is no case, the reason she was removed to the state pen in the first place. Given the serious nature of Albert's made up charges/conspiracy, more likely than not Ava would be immediately released on bail pending hearings in court pending formal dismissal of charges. If Vazquez, Raylan and the DA believe her life is in danger and did nothing, their collective asses are grasses.  Ava could sue the shizzle out of the state prison/corrections department and even the USMS. 

 

Perhaps it was Ava's real fear that her death was imminent that led her to hastily sign this CI agreement without considering her actual position/options or even not wanting to wait the very short time she'd remain inside until her release/bail was signed.  Recall that Ava  was already being released on bail on the very weak charges which landed her in jail in Harlan, that case for which all the witnesses are dead (I don't recall if the St.Cyr girl actually saw anything).  As for any other charges they could possibly threaten to have a DA bring (assuming they even know about it), Ellen May would make any sane DA rethink trying the Delroy shooting case. But that is a non issue because that is not the reason she was arrested and in jail in Harlan.  Unless the writers reveal it later on or some other wrinkle,  there is no suggestion that Ava confessed to killing that inmate, and prisoner code would make it unlikely someone would snitch. While the feds can use a state prisoner as a CI, the release part goes through the state DA since none of her charges are federal. Vazquez has no authority to release her or drop charges.

 

Oh, yes:  and any prior relationship between a federal agent and a CI must be divulged in the agreement. Maybe it does, but to what extent?  Will certain bedroom photos of Ava and Raylan resurface?  Return Ava to prison? Good luck with that. Albert's charges, behavior and the evidence is so weak and suspect, any competent lawyer could get her release or removal to protective custody on a judge's order.  I cannot swallow that there was no investigation or evidence (would a DA go to court on that? Aw hell no!) and the consequences for Albert (prison) and the cellmate (perjury to extend her sentence) are too great.

 

Was there or was there not a recantation?  Edited to add:  the bottom line is that Ava believes there is a case, enough to keep her terrified of returning to prison, even for a brief period needed to be processed out and released.  Heaven help Raylan if he gets involved with Ava even in a small way.  BTW, is Vazquez also using Ava cast a net to trap Katherine, and does KH suspect Ava is being used to get her more than she suspects Ava is to get Boyd, or both of them? Neither the feds nor the state know of it yet, but if Ava is on camera with Katherine stealing the bracelet, Ava can go to jail for that alone. 

 

Ideas anyone? I'm baffled.

Edited by Yemayah
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ruby24

ruby24

You know what, you're right! I hadn't even though about that, but if Albert actually has recanted, than there is no case against Ava. Unless the feds are going to force him to lie again if Ava doesn't give them what they want? But why would Raylan do that if he knows the whole thing was a lie in the first place? Tim and Rachel seem to know it's a lie. How and under what charge would they actually send her back to prison knowing that?

 

I think there's some big loopholes in that whole agreement.

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Blakeston

Blakeston

Here's the only way the Albert stuff makes any sense to me:

 

Albert never actually recanted. The "Albert recanted" stuff was a cover story to fool Boyd, and anyone else, into thinking that Ava isn't an informant. And Albert lost his job - not because he recanted, but because he fled the area after the fake stabbing, and stopped coming to work.

 

Raylan told the other marshals a while back that the stabbing allegations had to be false. The other marshals didn't care much that Ava was framed, either because they're horrible people, or because they knew that Ava had done plenty of other illegal things.

 

When the marshals realized that Katherine was going to track down Albert, they sought him out and told him they knew he was guilty, and that if he wanted to avoid criminal prosecution, he should tell anyone who asked that he recanted. So he did.

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soapfaninnc

soapfaninnc

(edited)

I still say there was no way in hell Ava was ever going to get convicted of Delroy or disposing of his rotten corpse - which, considering his pimping, abusive, forcing the girls to rob banks and letting them die ass - wasn't much of a difference than his sorry life. Ellen Mae was a horrible witness who had confessed to Ava that Delroy was coming to kill her (EM) because they'd robbed a bank, one of the girls had been shot and they dumped her in the slurry pond. Delroy came storming in and Ava shot him. The deputy who caught her disposing of said body is dead and so was the corner who was acting sherif. Considering that the sherif before that was Drew 'Fing' Thompson, there wasn't a reliable anything in that county to start with. Albert was the only thing that would have kept her in jail cause they still don't know she killed that woman in jail who was going to kill her if she didn't so something. 

 

Cassie the preacher's sister could only testify to what Ellen Mae had told her and that is hearsay since they could get Ellen Mae back to testify if need be. 

 

Ava did a lot of illegal things, but Delroy needed killing.

Edited by soapfaninnc
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Blakeston

Blakeston

(edited)

Even if he recanted his charges against Ava, she would still be in prison for the charges that put her there in the first place.  Weren't they moving a body and accomplist to murder?

 

Those charges against Ava were dropped after Boyd killed that funeral home guy - who was the main witness against her - and made it look like he was a criminal who killed himself out of shame.

 

The only reason she wasn't let out of jail was because Albert framed her.

 

I still say there was no way in hell Ava was ever going to get convicted of Delroy or disposing of his rotten corpse - which, considering his pimping, abusive, forcing the girls to rob banks and letting them die ass - wasn't much of a difference than his sorry life. Ellen Mae was a horrible witness who had confessed to Ava that Delroy was coming to kill her (EM) because they'd robbed a bank, one of the girls had been shot and they dumped her in the slurry pond. Delroy came storming in and Ava shot him. The deputy who caught her disposing of said body is dead and so was the corner who was acting sherif. Considering that the sherif before that was Drew 'Fing' Thompson, there wasn't a reliable anything in that county to start with. Albert was the only thing that would have kept her in jail cause they still don't know she killed that woman in jail who was going to kill her if she didn't so something. 

 

Cassie the preacher's sister could only testify to what Ellen Mae had told her and that is hearsay since they could get Ellen Mae back to testify if need be. 

 

Ava did a lot of illegal things, but Delroy needed killing.

Ava never would have been convicted of murdering Delroy, but the writers never asked us to believe that she would be. Just that she would be put in jail after being found moving his body, which seems reasonable to me. 

As for her whether she deserves to go to jail, I'd say the best evidence against her would be that she put out a hit on Ellen May, rather than anything to do with Delroy.

Edited by Blakeston
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LCanterbury

LCanterbury

I don't know that Doyle, er, Albert actually recanted either. He didn't seem like he was going to after his meeting with Boyd last season from memory?

The Raylan/Ava kiss was completely worth it for what Tara called Timothy Olyphant's sex eyes after - good lord!

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Yemayah

Yemayah

Here's the only way the Albert stuff makes any sense to me:

 

Albert never actually recanted. The "Albert recanted" stuff was a cover story to fool Boyd, and anyone else, into thinking that Ava isn't an informant. And Albert lost his job - not because he recanted, but because he fled the area after the fake stabbing, and stopped coming to work.

 

Raylan told the other marshals a while back that the stabbing allegations had to be false. The other marshals didn't care much that Ava was framed, either because they're horrible people, or because they knew that Ava had done plenty of other illegal things.

 

When the marshals realized that Katherine was going to track down Albert, they sought him out and told him they knew he was guilty, and that if he wanted to avoid criminal prosecution, he should tell anyone who asked that he recanted. So he did.

What you say makes sense.  If Albert did not recant, Ava had to be made aware of this fact.  The DA/AUSA cannot state otherwise to trick her into agreeing to be a CI.   He might be asked to agree that his answer will be that he recanted out of love, guilty conscience or whatever to anyone who inquires, and this cooperation is voluntary.  Ava and her lawyer would agree to say that the guard and cellmate recanted to protect her CI agreement from Boyd.  But this is where I am having trouble.    Albert is in the predicament he is in because he made a deal, in which case it is logical to assume he has recanted, and his cover story is part of the deal. He cannot be compelled to implicate or testify against himself.  Either he recanted or he did not recant.  It would seem he has, and it is up to the DA bring those charges and draft a cooperation agreement (which a judge may not necessarily accept).

 

While the feds may not have let on right away to Ava that they have evidence his allegations are crap (maybe they did not have enough evidence at the time that they needed to move her out of prison expeditiouly), they are absolutely obligated to bring this to the attention of the DA, particularly if Albert made an admission/statement, if they have substantial reason to be suspicious, and if they have any exculpatory evidence in Ava's favor. 

 

The reason I say bring to the attention of the DA is because the feds (Vazquez) have no control over how the state DA brings, modifies or dismisses any charges, which a judge has to approve. Ava is imprisoned on STATE charges only. She was not in state prison because of past acts, suspicion of past bad behavior or for crimes for which she has not been charged. If Raylan and Vazquez are withholding evidence that could free her for the sole purpose only of scaring her with threats of returning her to prison and ensuring they get her to do what they want, they both will end up indicted quicker than the ink drying on her bail papers.  Heaven help them if, in the process, she is injured or killed because of their actions. They will go to jail. 

 

Albert cannot be compelled to testify against himself.  If he is where he is because he is making/made a deal, then they know he has/will be recanting, and that will come out in court. Ava's case folds and she has to be released on bail pending formal dropping of charges. His allegations will not hold water and even the most zealous prosecutor will not bring present this case to a jury.

Any legal eagles or paralegals, help! 

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Catherinewriter

Catherinewriter

OhWell, agreed, this season is just too on edge. Who will live, who will die?

Show, do not kill: Ava, Boyd, Raylan, Tim, Rachel, and most of all Bob. He's just classic.

You can kill everyone else, including Ty and Avery and especially Catherine - she's a bore. I know you're listening to me, show.

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ruby24

ruby24

(edited)

Yeah, that case against Ava is ludicrous at this point. There IS no case against her, because she was only in prison because Albert framed her. Boyd had already gotten her released from jail and those other charges dropped earlier.

 

So, what exactly is Raylan threatening to send her back to prison FOR? For not cooperating with the marshals, even though they all know that the original charges against her were bullshit in the first place and she never should have been in prison for it? After Albert has already recanted his story, so she's been vindicated? This whole thing falls apart really fast, if you think about it. She was in prison for a crime she never committed, that has been struck from the record, and Raylan is still able to blackmail her and threaten to send her to prison for what, for nothing? Makes no sense.

 

They'd have to be holding something she actually DID over her head, that they could charge her with and imprison her for. Not this untrue Albert story. If they had something like that on her, they could get away with this I guess, but do they? I don't think they have anything.

Edited by ruby24
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