S05.E09: What Happened, And What's Going On

[Nashville]

Tyreese didn't even want to kill zombies though. How could you live in that world and not WANT to kill zombies even if you were otherwise unable to for some reason?

I always saw Tyreese's recalcitrance toward killing walkers as somewhat Lizzie-esque. Like Lizzie, Tyreese saw walkers as "like humans, but different", in that he feels the same moral strictures which apply to killing other humans still applies to walkers as well - although, form factor notwithstanding, a rattlesnake has more in common with a living human than a walker. At least a rattlesnake dies when you shoot it.

So - is it truly a moral quandary? Or does killing people-shaped things just make him feel oogy?

[melanie]

I believe that Bob was the one who confirmed that the radio broadcast was from Terminus.  He said he put it all together when he read the words on the sign when he and Maggie and Sasha were walking along the railroad tracks.  He recognized the words from the radio broadcast.  

[JackONeill]

Nashville:

 

I wouldn't want to kill zombies.  Yes, I'm squeamish.  But I could kill one who was coming after me or a friend of mine.  (At least, I think I could.)  But I think where I'd part company with many is that I wouldn't go out of my to kill them.  If I saw one way down the road, heading in the opposite direction, I'd ignore it.  Thinking of your analogy of the rattlesnake: most people, I think the numbers show, that get bitten by a snake are ones who were "messing" with it.

Thanks, melanie.

[BrokenRemote]

Yes, but my problem with the characters you mentioned is that they maintain their so called moral core by allowing others to do the dirty work for them.  They stay safe because others kill FOR them.  Honestly I think the most poignant struggle for morality has played out inside the character of Carl.  Dealing with the love triangle the destroyed his family.  He loved Shane, but had to kill him.  He loved his mother but she was a disappointment, then he lost her.  He loved his dad but he has also disappointed him.  He killed that kid because he doubted the efficacy of mercy but now, a couple years later, he is telling his dad "Everybody can't be bad."  Carl is the moral center of this show, ironically. 

 

In real life I know that throughout history people have endured unimaginable pain and suffering and some of the darkest acts have been committed, some bordering on satanic.  But still society - and the need for it - prevails.  Why?  In my opinion it is because by nature and instinct we are pack animals and need each other to survive and thrive and the infrastructure of that instinct is morality.  So yeah, morailty will when the day even if the fight is long and hard.

I disagree that they all wanted someone else to do their dirty work.  Take Dale--he argued against killing Randall.  He didn't just want to be exempted from having to do the deed himself--he didn't want it done.  Herschel was against Carl killing the boy in the woods. He didn't want someone else to do it besides him to keep them safe--he didn't think it should have been done.  And if he was wrong, he'd have died for it.  Tyrese wanted to use a less lethal solution to invade the hospital.  That doesn't equal someone else doing his dirty work.  

 

Now, Tyrese is an exception,  letting Carol kill the walkers and Lizzy.  I think Tyrese went beyond being a moral center to having some serious internal issue with killing, and he did in some situations expect someone else to do it for him.  But in situations like the hospital, he did act in the same role as Dale and Herschel as the so-called "moral center", just plain not wanting anyone killed if they didn't have to.  

 

I can't think of instances where Herschel or Dale wanted someone dead but just wanted someone else to do it, though.  I would argue that in the situations where Dale and Herschel argued against taking a human life, they would have been willing to face the consequences if wrong.  I don't think they were saying ''just don't make me do it".  

 

This all goes back to the beaten-over-our-heads moral of the story that you have to shed all traces of caring about others that aren't your 'family' to survive in this world.

 

I wouldn't want to kill zombies.  Yes, I'm squeamish.  But I could kill one who was coming after me or a friend of mine.  (At least, I think I could.)  But I think where I'd part company with many is that I wouldn't go out of my to kill them.  If I saw one way down the road, heading in the opposite direction, I'd ignore it.  Thinking of your analogy of the rattlesnake: most people, I think the numbers show, that get bitten by a snake are ones who were "messing" with it.

 

And I think that's part of what's hard for us as viewers.  We've seen it in hundreds of movies, and we like to think that we'd be able to just become killing machines.  The truth is that it might not be so easy for everyone to do it in reality, unless it came down to life or death, and some people not even then.  It's fun to watch, but I like to think that for most of us, it wouldn't be fun in real life.

Edited February 9, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[RustbeltWriter]

I like the idea of them going to DC but only because I want to see what the show's version of the capital will look like. We've seen all the backwoods and Atlanta we need to. Now I'd like to see some walkers wandering around the House Rotunda and in the Oval Office. Maybe the Marine barracks at Eighth & I is holding out. I don't know. I think I just want to see some familiar touchstone.

[JackONeill]

I say they should head over to the Greenbriar and check out the secret, super safe bunker.  Then, when things appear clear, they can work in some golfing.

[lacEdoll]

While I am not a huge fan of Beth or even her singing...her message to Ty was rather poignant. He viewed her as innocence in a world full of chaos and uncertainty. For her to sing to him "you're a struggling man and you've got to move"...that message from someone he viewed as pure innocence was poetic. He knew he had to move on in one way or another. Fight to live and change his ideals in the ZA or move on through letting go and accepting death. Kind of powerful if you ask me. All the ghosts...the Governor, Beth. Lyzzie, BoB...all of them gave him the same message. And that it was ok to let go if he chose. 

[melanie]

I must say that I absolutely loved this episode.  I thought it was different, but beautiful.  

I knew from the preview that they had decided to go to Richmond, but was so pleased that they were already there.  500 miles in 17 days is impressive.  

I loved the radio broadcasts.  So well done, IMO.  Thought provoking.  

I loved the characters returning.  Also, I was not a Tyreese fan, so I was not sad to see him go.  It was time.  

I did not find him to be a moral compass at all.  He attacked Rick and Daryl after Karen was murdered with no proof that they were involved at all.  Then he tried to convince Rick that finding the murderer was more important than trying to cure those with the illness.  He said something about Rick feeling like murder was OK.  

I guess I feel more passionate about Tyreese because I watched a lot of the marathon this weekend and so many of his actions are inexplicable, especially at this point in the apocalypse.  And I have never understood or like the dialogue written for him.  He also lied -- not very moral.  

 

From reading the posts on this page, I gather that a lot of people are frustrated by the lack of hope.  This does not bother me at all.  Sometimes there is no hope and realizing this fact is facing reality.  Greg Nicotero said the show would be increasingly dark.  It is getting worse and worse and worse.  I would imagine that the end of the world would be like that.  

[Nashville]

Nashville:

 

I wouldn't want to kill zombies.  Yes, I'm squeamish.  But I could kill one who was coming after me or a friend of mine.  (At least, I think I could.)  But I think where I'd part company with many is that I wouldn't go out of my to kill them.  If I saw one way down the road, heading in the opposite direction, I'd ignore it.  Thinking of your analogy of the rattlesnake: most people, I think the numbers show, that get bitten by a snake are ones who were "messing" with it.

Thanks, melanie.

Unfortunately, the rattlesnake/walker analogy falls apart on one significant point; that of predation. Rattlesnakes don't normally prey on humans, and will avoid them if at all possible; most bites are (from the snake's POV) self defense, when they are cornered with no means of escape. Walkers, on the other hand, are voracious and aggressive predators of humans; they will attempt to attack any human they see.

Which bring up the question of what constitutes post-ZA social responsibility: if you have the ability to dispatch a walker with minimal risk to yourself, do you have the moral responsibility to do so? Or do you leave the walker be - possibly to attack and kill the next person it wanders across on down the road?

[Boofish]

As much as I made fun of Tyrese, he sealed a place in my heart in that one scene when he turned around and was holding Judith. I would have preferred to see Eugene bite the dust instead of Tyrese or Bob. Eugene is a useless coward with no redeeming qualities and running a close second is Father Pee Pants. I can at least take comfort in the fact he didn't get the T-Dog funeral special

[JackONeill]

I get that a walker you let live (die?) might kill some innocent person later.  But I also wonder what the life (death) expectancy of the walkers are. I know this is something the writers are never going to give us, but at a point all that skin and muscle is going to rot away.  We're already seeing that.  The walkers these last few years haven't had that ole spring in their step like in the first season or two.  At a point they're just going to decompose, with the exception of their "choppers."

[AndySmith]

The thing about DC is that most people need to realize is that the district itself is just a tiny fraction, land wise, of the whole DC metrpolitan area. True, there could be lots of zombies there, but there are also lots of gated communities on both the Virginia and Maryland sides the group could use which would be fortified rather well, with walls, lots of empty areas of land they could use for farming, areas not surrounded by lots and lots of trees, etc. And even within DC and the metro area itself, they could use any number of multi-story buildings the same way Dawn's group did. I guess it would all depend on just how many zombies that remain in the area.

[shanndee]

I finally got to see this episode (how dare my friend have a birthday dinner when The Walking Dead premiered. Some people!...:D )

 

After being initially wrong-footed by the art house direction of the opening scenes, I settled in and listened to the story they were telling. I thought that the BBC style broadcaster was describing the Rwanda genocide, a real world example of man's inhumanity to man, of how predators will swoop in and take advantage of disastrous situations, and how "good" people will just sit back and watch it happen.

 

Tyreese is the personification of so many good people. He is aware of what is happening, he is a witness to it, but he is not capable of responding. Other godd people are capable...but they may lose something of themselves in the response.

 

I am looking forward to the next "big bad". I think it is very feasible that predators will take advantage of the ZA, and chances are good that you'll meet more looters than helpers. 

 

I am glad that Tyreese got such a fine send off. I'm also glad that Chad Coleman was such a charming class act on Talking Dead. I'll be looking forward to seeing his work in the future!

[JackONeill]

 

 

The thing about DC is that most people need to realize is that the district itself is just a tiny fraction, land wise, of the whole DC metrpolitan area. True, there could be lots of zombies there, but there are also lots of gated communities on both the Virginia and Maryland sides the group could use which would be fortified rather well, with walls, lots of empty areas of land they could use for farming, areas not surrounded by lots and lots of trees, etc. And even within DC and the metro area itself, they could use any number of multi-story buildings the same way Dawn's group did. I guess it would all depend on just how many zombies that remain in the area.

I get that about D.C.  But why even leave Atlanta in the first place?  I mean, all that is true in Atlanta, plus the weather's better.  Michonne was so eager to get that blouse last night; well, in Washington they're going to be looking for some major-league parkas.

[Nashville]

The thing about DC is that most people need to realize is that the district itself is just a tiny fraction, land wise, of the whole DC metrpolitan area. True, there could be lots of zombies there, but there are also lots of gated communities on both the Virginia and Maryland sides the group could use which would be fortified rather well, with walls, lots of empty areas of land they could use for farming, areas not surrounded by lots and lots of trees, etc. And even within DC and the metro area itself, they could use any number of multi-story buildings the same way Dawn's group did. I guess it would all depend on just how many zombies that remain in the area.

That, and how many of the gated communities are occupied by rich Republicans who would shoot and kill you rather than share resources.

<ducking>

;>

[JBody]

All signs point to ***Richonne 4 Evaaah!!!*** so now I know for sure it ain't gonna happen.  My hatred for the chain yanking of TPTB continues to burn white hot.  I assume they'll wheel out some suitably appropriate female (about whom I will not give one tiny sh!t) to catch Rick's eye sometime in the back half.  Bastards.

 

I also really hate laughing during this hour of Aristotelian tragedy but I did, dammit (again, I blame the loathsome PTB).  For starters: Noah would rather hobble-sprint at lightning speed away from Tyreese than listen to his mournful advice on how to keep on keepin' on, and that was simply hilarious.  Also extremely cringeworthy: the Keystone cop-style maneuvers of the group lugging an obviously bleeding out and dying Tyreese (who outweighs all of them combined), and when they finally hop in their getaway car Rick spins out the tires (why? too many dead leaves??) and rear ends a truck full of snapping zombie heads which comes cascading down onto their hood (I just said "oh f&ck off!" to the teevee screen), and the looks on their faces....!  Kind of a Murphy's Law type thing, eh?  

 

Well, it was pretty funny.  I'm sorry if that offends (not really!  Michonne and I are growing extremely impatient with the hopeless, sad sack, Debbie downer nihilistic tone of this show.  I wish Shane was around to crack some juvenile joke or sarcastic comment, ANYTHING would do at this point.  Also, Rick, wake the f&ck up man, the lady Michonne needs a damned hug, at the very least).  Other notables: Rick and Glen actually spoke to each other!  I can't remember what was said...  same old angsty same old I guess (to stay put or keep searching/can one retain one's humanity in an apocalypse/does any of this matter).  Maggie crying about her second cousin once removed's death was kind of a head scratcher.  I hope she doesn't go all Ophelia in the back half.  We need strong women in the ZA!

 

Artsy stuff was ok, trippy and all that, but a little goes a long way.  Remember the cool scene of the lone walker in the field shambling around to some sad tune, that book-ended "18 Miles Out"?  That was subtle, evocative and poignant.  The stuff going on in this ep was on the hit-over-the-head-with-a-hammer level of non-subtle.  Don't hate me but I kinda liked seeing David Morrisey chewing up the damned scenery again.  But I really think Scott Wilson should have been there.  Whatever, show.

 

Better Call Saul opener was brilliant!

[Nashville]

After being initially wrong-footed by the art house direction of the opening scenes, I settled in and listened to the story they were telling. I thought that the BBC style broadcaster was describing the Rwanda genocide, a real world example of man's inhumanity to man, of how predators will swoop in and take advantage of disastrous situations, and how "good" people will just sit back and watch it happen.

 

In truth, this was my first assumption (before finding out it was Andrew Lincoln's voice). I thought TPTB had lifted some old BBC broadcasts as commentary that the post-ZA human-on-human inhumanity was (regrettably) nothing unique in the human experience.

[shanndee]

In truth, this was my first assumption (before finding out it was Andrew Lincoln's voice). I thought TPTB had lifted some old BBC broadcasts as commentary that the post-ZA human-on-human inhumanity was (regrettably) nothing unique in the human experience.

 

Yes, I thought it was a nice touch to have Andrew Lincoln as the broadcaster! (nice to hear him using his actual accent). I don't think that negates the possibility that the writers were using a real life tragedy  to make this statement, especially considering the number of people I speak to who insist that people would never stoop to the lows depicted on TWD.

[ghoulina]

True, but debates about morality and the meaning of life post ZA have never been among this show's strong points. At all.

 

To each his own, but I disagree. I loved the farm episodes and all the moral quandaries that surfaced. Do we keep looking for a lost, little girl day after day, or move on? Do we help these strangers that just showed up on our farm, or kick them out? Is this really a world we want our son to live in, or would we rather he die and be spared all this suffering?  Is it our place to kill walkers in someone else's barn? And, of course, Randall. Do I want entire seasons of nothing BUT morality debates? No. But I don't want constant group cohesion either. It would feel unnatural. I'm not just interested in seeing how a group of survivors would physically deal with this world; I want to know how they would navigate around all the other stuff that crops up. 

[Duke2801]

I didn't feel strongly about Tyrese one way or the other.  Well I take that back.  He actually annoyed me big time during the whole "omg I was in a relationship with Karen for 3 days .... but I will do whatever it takes to AVENGE her death" episodes.  But I grew to appreciate him once we got past all of that. And reasons of the Judith nature.   

 

THAT being said, I thought this was an effing great episode. I honestly don't understand what was "pretentious" about it.  I mean, if I want pretentious I'll watch Downton Abbey!  I was riveted by Tyrese's performance, as well as the "conversations" he was having with the deceased as he hovered between life and death. I thought all those "flash forwards" they employed before the opening credits were pretty awesome, too personally. 

 

I wasn't all that impressed with this episode. I was never a big fan of Tyreese, so him dying doesn't bother me. As for all the dead people coming back to talk to him, they already did that on Buffy the Vampire Slayer (the episode was called...Conversations With Dead People) & I enjoyed that a lot more than this chaotic bouncing around. I also was hoping to NEVER see the Governor again, so having him back & talking, even for a little, gets on my very last nerve. All those body parts & foreheads with carvings on them make me think we're in for another crazy person & I just can't deal with another one.

 

That is totally your prerogative not to be impressed with this episode. But I will dispute that fact that this episode was anything remotely like CwDP on BtVS.  Nobody was dying when the "dead people" came back. Further, it wasn't really even supposed to be their spirits who came back, but rather, the Big Bad impersonating them. 

 

Not that "dead people visit a dying person" is an entirely new concept whatsoever. I'm sure it's been done before. But not on Buffy. 

 

Either write the character better or write him off.

 

 

Welp.. looks like they took your advice.  So. 

 

 

 

 

[diebartdie]

Which bring up the question of what constitutes post-ZA social responsibility: if you have the ability to dispatch a walker with minimal risk to yourself, do you have the moral responsibility to do so? Or do you leave the walker be - possibly to attack and kill the next person it wanders across on down the road?

IMO you have a moral responsibility to put down the walker.

[AndySmith]

Yes, they did talk about morality issues, but they just talked and talked and talked and went around in circles so much and gave each other silent meaningful stares and Hershell and others gave a bunch of anvil hevay speeches and my God has anyone really made a decent point yet?

 

But as you said, to each his own.

[ghoulina]

Unfortunately, the rattlesnake/walker analogy falls apart on one significant point; that of predation. Rattlesnakes don't normally prey on humans, and will avoid them if at all possible; most bites are (from the snake's POV) self defense, when they are cornered with no means of escape. Walkers, on the other hand, are voracious and aggressive predators of humans; they will attempt to attack any human they see.

Which bring up the question of what constitutes post-ZA social responsibility: if you have the ability to dispatch a walker with minimal risk to yourself, do you have the moral responsibility to do so? Or do you leave the walker be - possibly to attack and kill the next person it wanders across on down the road?

 

I absolutely agree with your point about the analogy. Walkers are never going to stop coming after you, or people in general. IMO, yes, you should proactively kill every one you see, as long as it is feasible to do so. Obviously you don't want to risk your life, or the lives of others, if you don't have to. But, at the same time, the less walkers in the world, the better. They're really not THAT hard to kill as long as they don't have the element of surprise. Not anymore, not to those well practiced in it. They're fairly slow....and, well, brainless. If I could do it, I would. Even if the walker didn't see me and wasn't coming after me. And once I had a place that was all dialed in, I would go out on daily runs, not just for supplies, but to kill any walker in the surrounding area. 

[Rilla-my-Rilla]

As far as Karen not being there, I guess I'll just go with what Chad Coleman said on twitter when asked...

 

"he had come to terms with her death...everyone who appeared b4 him lived in a combative space in his unconsciousness mind."

 

https://twitter.com/ChadLColeman/status/564694582567268355

[JackONeill]

We've seen times when someone thought they were just going to -- ho-hum -- kill a walker and it turned out badly.  I say: If they're in your way, kill them. Otherwise, leave them alone.  (Which doesn't mean I feel sorry for them, or that I think they're "people.")  I just think that more people will get into trouble going after that one last walker than if they didn't.  Not everyone is a killing machine.  Witness, last night, when something happened with Michonne's blade and all of a sudden she was in a death struggle.  Now, think if that had happened when she just went after a random walker; then think if she'd gotten bitten doing it.

 

I stand by the rattlesnake analogy.

Edited February 9, 2015 by JackONeill

[Timetoread]

I disagree that they all wanted someone else to do their dirty work.  Take Dale--he argued against killing Randall.  He didn't just want to be exempted from having to do the deed himself--he didn't want it done.  Herschel was against Carl killing the boy in the woods. He didn't want someone else to do it besides him to keep them safe--he didn't think it should have been done.  And if he was wrong, he'd have died for it.  Tyrese wanted to use a less lethal solution to invade the hospital.  That doesn't equal someone else doing his dirty work.  

 

Now, Tyrese is an exception,  letting Carol kill the walkers and Lizzy.  I think Tyrese went beyond being a moral center to having some serious internal issue with killing, and he did in some situations expect someone else to do it for him.  But in situations like the hospital, he did act in the same role as Dale and Herschel as the so-called "moral center", just plain not wanting anyone killed if they didn't have to.  

 

I can't think of instances where Herschel or Dale wanted someone dead but just wanted someone else to do it, though.  I would argue that in the situations where Dale and Herschel argued against taking a human life, they would have been willing to face the consequences if wrong.  I don't think they were saying ''just don't make me do it".  

 

This all goes back to the beaten-over-our-heads moral of the story that you have to shed all traces of caring about others that aren't your 'family' to survive in this world.

 

And I think that's part of what's hard for us as viewers.  We've seen it in hundreds of movies, and we like to think that we'd be able to just become killing machines.  The truth is that it might not be so easy for everyone to do it in reality, unless it came down to life or death, and some people not even then.  It's fun to watch, but I like to think that for most of us, it wouldn't be fun in real life.

 

My point was that they live in a world of constant danger but often the "moral characters" pontificate about right and wrong but when the danger is neutralized by the "badass" characters, they benefit by these actions  - specifically by not being dead.  I don't have time to evaluate every act every character made over the past 5 seasons, mostly because while I don't particularly care for a character in summation, it doesn't mean that I consider every breath they take bad or evil, but I will address the Carl/kid incident.  That incident alone is what chilled me to Herschel forever.  I wasn't a fan of his going back to the keeping walkers in the barn days, but the shooting of that kid left a very bad taste in my mouth.  Hershel saw that situation go down, but did he take a step to put himself between those two boys and their guns?  Did he order Carl to put the gun down and step behind him?  Did he jump on Carl when it went down?  Did he insist emphatically that the other boy drop the gun or else?  Did he act in any way like a grown damn man?  No he stood there, slack jawed and one-legged, and held a posture that led Carl, a child, to believe that HE was in the position to protect the women, children, and hobbled elderly.  Carl made a bad decision - as kids often do - and all Hershel did was tattle on him and tell Rick how to raise his kid.  I believe in that situation Rick, Daryl, Michonne, even Glenn would have controlled it by controlling (or at least attempting to) the child.  If I were Rick, I would have asked Hershel why didn't HE do anything.  HE was in charge. HE was the adult.  Don't me started on everybody's beloved Hershel.  That said, I wasn't happy to see him die .  He was a basically good man and his death was uncalled for and cruel.

 

What really bothers me about this argument however is the assessment of the others as cold blooded killers who have turned off their emotions.  Through the course of this series I've seen more tears from Rick, Daryl and Michonne than any of the others combined.  They HAVE feelings, they HAVE morals (most of their problems have been BECAUSE they took the moral high ground).  Morality isn't as simple as deciding not to kill people no matter what.  Sometimes morality is doing what is "wrong" for the greater good but not losing sight that it is indeed wrong.  Rick killed humans to protect his children.  Does this make him immoral?  Would Herschel kill to save Beth and Maggie - I guess in theory.  Would Tyrese kill to save Sasha or the girls or Judith?  No, we saw that.  Does that mean he wins the morality top prize?  FPP hasn't killed ANYBODY - only cowered in a corner and watched them die.  Is he the Moral center to strive for?

[BrokenRemote]

All signs point to ***Richonne 4 Evaaah!!!*** so now I know for sure it ain't gonna happen.  My hatred for the chain yanking of TPTB continues to burn white hot.  I assume they'll wheel out some suitably appropriate female (about whom I will not give one tiny sh!t) to catch Rick's eye sometime in the back half.  Bastards.

 

I also really hate laughing during this hour of Aristotelian tragedy but I did, dammit (again, I blame the loathsome PTB).  For starters: Noah would rather hobble-sprint at lightning speed away from Tyreese than listen to his mournful advice on how to keep on keepin' on, and that was simply hilarious.  Also extremely cringeworthy: the Keystone cop-style maneuvers of the group lugging an obviously bleeding out and dying Tyreese (who outweighs all of them combined), and when they finally hop in their getaway car Rick spins out the tires (why? too many dead leaves??) and rear ends a truck full of snapping zombie heads which comes cascading down onto their hood (I just said "oh f&ck off!" to the teevee screen), and the looks on their faces....!  Kind of a Murphy's Law type thing, eh?  

 

Well, it was pretty funny.  I'm sorry if that offends (not really!  Michonne and I are growing extremely impatient with the hopeless, sad sack, Debbie downer nihilistic tone of this show.  I wish Shane was around to crack some juvenile joke or sarcastic comment, ANYTHING would do at this point.  Also, Rick, wake the f&ck up man, the lady Michonne needs a damned hug, at the very least).  Other notables: Rick and Glen actually spoke to each other!  I can't remember what was said...  same old angsty same old I guess (to stay put or keep searching/can one retain one's humanity in an apocalypse/does any of this matter).  Maggie crying about her second cousin once removed's death was kind of a head scratcher.  I hope she doesn't go all Ophelia in the back half.  We need strong women in the ZA!

 

Artsy stuff was ok, trippy and all that, but a little goes a long way.  Remember the cool scene of the lone walker in the field shambling around to some sad tune, that book-ended "18 Miles Out"?  That was subtle, evocative and poignant.  The stuff going on in this ep was on the hit-over-the-head-with-a-hammer level of non-subtle.  Don't hate me but I kinda liked seeing David Morrisey chewing up the damned scenery again.  But I really think Scott Wilson should have been there.  Whatever, show.

 

Better Call Saul opener was brilliant!

Now, I don't see hints of Richonne at all.  I never have, and I didn't see anything in this episode either, except that the pair exchanged a few sentences and Rick agreed with her.   I think that if you ship a couple, you'll catch every little interaction between them and see meaning there, and if you don't then it won't be screaming "they're in love!!" to you.  (Not knocking shippers, I just think it's a different approach to watching.)  I like Michonne and Rick separately, and I like their friendship but I just am not into seeing them together and I really don't feel like the show is playing us by teasing a relationship.  People felt that they were tricked by endless Daryl and Beth teasing, and I never saw that, either.  I don't believe that any of it's intentional on the part of TPTB.

 

Didn't the tires in the van spin on walker bits from pursuing walkers when they first got in and tried to move?

 

I have to agree with you on the dark tone of the last couple seasons.  Maybe it's because I'm the kind of person that jokes more when things are at their bleakest, but I feel like humans would have to find light moments or the unrelenting oppression would have already driven them all mad.  And it seems like we used to have some nice moments once in a while that made the dark moments darker (and conversely, the dark moments made the rare bits of happiness they had seem even more joyous).  It's very human to grab even small amounts happiness where you can find it.

I absolutely agree with your point about the analogy. Walkers are never going to stop coming after you, or people in general. IMO, yes, you should proactively kill every one you see, as long as it is feasible to do so. Obviously you don't want to risk your life, or the lives of others, if you don't have to. But, at the same time, the less walkers in the world, the better. They're really not THAT hard to kill as long as they don't have the element of surprise. Not anymore, not to those well practiced in it. They're fairly slow....and, well, brainless. If I could do it, I would. Even if the walker didn't see me and wasn't coming after me. And once I had a place that was all dialed in, I would go out on daily runs, not just for supplies, but to kill any walker in the surrounding area. 

But don't you risk complete exhaustion that way?  The gang slips by a lot of them if they don't have to kill them.  

Edited February 9, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[Boofish]

I don't see the others as cold blooded killers I just see Tyrese as the one guy in a jury pool against the death penalty no matter what the offense. He was basically a stronger more capable Dale (whom I never forgave for seeing a herd of walkers coming WHILE HE WAS ON WATCH and just plunked down on top the RV without so much as a whistle to warn the others - goodness that still bugs me). I think the only characters left without a moral center are Eugene and Father Pee Pants - they knowingly watched people die for their own benefit

 

And Noah had better do something useful really quickly. I hold him directly responsible for Carol getting hit and the deaths of Beth and Tyrese!

[that one guy]

And even within DC and the metro area itself, they could use any number of multi-story buildings the same way Dawn's group did.

 

I actually think there are advantages to an urban area. My block in Chicago could be easily fortified. The apartment buildings touch to make basically a walled compound with four access points where the alleys are, which could be easily gated/fortified. There's a large central courtyard which is usually used for parking but could be converted to other purposes. The downside, generally, is access to food and water - nowhere to grow crops without trucking in soil, and 6 blocks and slightly uphill from the lake. But finding a Washington-area location that's easily barricaded and right on the river might work. I think Mullet Boy was actually on to something - in the post-Oklahoma City environment, Federal buildings are often fortresses, defensible and equipped with generators etc. If you can find a location that combines modern security paranoia with fresh water, you'd be in fairly good shape.

 

Defensible. Water supply. Holy s### I know where there would be survivors. Not Washington proper but the Pentagon, which is Arlington, Virginia. There's no way the Pentagon would fall to unthinking reanimated corpses. Great location and totally barricaded from the rest of the world since 9/11. Eugene was right! Sadly, by this point it's probably Dick Cheney in charge and they're evil and shoot you when you show up and ask for help. But they're alive.

 

Rosslyn could probably be fortified as a hilltop walled city as well, but you'd have to solve the food problem...

 

To original idea behind TWD was that there was a horror movie, and Rick slept through it, and now we have the ongoing story of what happened after. So when they visit various locations, in the producers' minds there was a horror movie that happened there before our characters got there. There was a horror movie set at the prison and those five guys survived. There was a horror movie set at the country club in "Still." I'm trying to imagine what the movie was like in Noah's neighborhood and I don't get it - I don't know why there are chopped up body parts everywhere - but Nicotero does. Something really wrong happened there, it wasnt just "zombies got over the wall." That doesn't explain a truck full of snapping zombie heads, there's mote to it than that.

[BrokenRemote]

My point was that they live in a world of constant danger but often the "moral characters" pontificate about right and wrong but when the danger is neutralized by the "badass" characters, they benefit by these actions  - specifically by not being dead.  I don't have time to evaluate every act every character made over the past 5 seasons, mostly because while I don't particularly care for a character in summation, it doesn't mean that I consider every breath they take bad or evil, but I will address the Carl/kid incident.  That incident alone is what chilled me to Herschel forever.  I wasn't a fan of his going back to the keeping walkers in the barn days, but the shooting of that kid left a very bad taste in my mouth.  Hershel saw that situation go down, but did he take a step to put himself between those two boys and their guns?  Did he order Carl to put the gun down and step behind him?  Did he jump on Carl when it went down?  Did he insist emphatically that the other boy drop the gun or else?  Did he act in any way like a grown damn man?  No he stood there, slack jawed and one-legged, and held a posture that led Carl, a child, to believe that HE was in the position to protect the women, children, and hobbled elderly.  Carl made a bad decision - as kids often do - and all Hershel did was tattle on him and tell Rick how to raise his kid.  I believe in that situation Rick, Daryl, Michonne, even Glenn would have controlled it by controlling (or at least attempting to) the child.  If I were Rick, I would have asked Hershel why didn't HE do anything.  HE was in charge. HE was the adult.  Don't me started on everybody's beloved Hershel.  That said, I wasn't happy to see him die .  He was a basically good man and his death was uncalled for and cruel.

 

What really bothers me about this argument however is the assessment of the others as cold blooded killers who have turned off their emotions.  Through the course of this series I've seen more tears from Rick, Daryl and Michonne than any of the others combined.  They HAVE feelings, they HAVE morals (most of their problems have been BECAUSE they took the moral high ground).  Morality isn't as simple as deciding not to kill people no matter what.  Sometimes morality is doing what is "wrong" for the greater good but not losing sight that it is indeed wrong.  Rick killed humans to protect his children.  Does this make him immoral?  Would Herschel kill to save Beth and Maggie - I guess in theory.  Would Tyrese kill to save Sasha or the girls or Judith?  No, we saw that.  Does that mean he wins the morality top prize?  FPP hasn't killed ANYBODY - only cowered in a corner and watched them die.  Is he the Moral center to strive for?

Just to clarify, I never meant to imply that I thought the supposed "moral" characters were right and everyone else was wrong.  I was just trying to clarify what I think about whether saying one character is a "moral center" means everyone else is immoral.  

 

I do still disagree with the statement that those characters were happy to benefit from the others killing for them (except Tyrese in limited situations).  I think they'd have rather risked death than given up their ideals, but that's just my guess. I can't prove it.  I don't expect everyone to remember every incident, but I do think the incidents I remember proved that the characters weren't just always hiding behind the strong ones and then pontificating to them and judging them and reveling in the benefits of their kills.

 

I also don't believe the characters who have hardened are emotionless.  My point was when people say so-and-so is the "moral center" of the show, they're usually talking about how easy it is for one character or another to kill humans.

Edited February 9, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[Timetoread]

I get that about D.C.  But why even leave Atlanta in the first place?  I mean, all that is true in Atlanta, plus the weather's better.  Michonne was so eager to get that blouse last night; well, in Washington they're going to be looking for some major-league parkas.

 

Because DC is a government town.  Concrete buildings,  all fortified against attacks.  I live 10 minutes outside the city and I am surrounded by, count em, 2 Air force bases, 1 naval base, NSA headquarters being built, miles of waterfront, the Pentagon not too far and just random govt/military/scientific/medical infrastructure (all newly fortified since 9/11).  We think of DC as politics only, but it is the capital of the most militarily strong country on the planet.  My guess is that DC would be eventually secured in a ZA, but the forces in charge would most likely be less than friendly.

[JackONeill]

Though not as many as in DC, there are many locations in Atlanta that could easily be fortified, with courtyards and everything.  (Trust me- I'm not arguing for our group to head back to Atlanta.  It took them four years to leave!)  What I'm saying is that no one in our group . . . THINKS.  No one plans.  There've been opportunities but they've walked on by.

But, let's face it, no matter what we say matters.  It's what the writers want.

Edited February 9, 2015 by JackONeill

[Misty79]

Yes!  And now Father Gabriel is set up to tell the same story, again!  You put your finger on something that's been bugging me for a while but I hadn't been able to articulate.  I think part of the problem is that it's obvious to us, and has been for a long time, but the characters don't have that same insight.  Which is probably realistic, and it's probably realistic that this same realization would come to different people over and over in different ways.  It just doesn't make for riveting TV.

 

That's it precisely. It's totally realistic that each character would have to come to terms with this issue, and even that it would be the central issue they would face. But as a viewer I just find it tired that they keep exploring the same premise over and over again. Even the Terminus stuff revolved around exactly the same theme - butcher or be butchered, do you have what it takes, etc.  

 

There are so many other really interesting things that the scenario gives rise to, for example I read Station Eleven recently and one of the things it explored well was the old Star Trek line "survival is insufficient". Admittedly there were no zombies to distract the characters in that novel, but still...

[CletusMusashi]

I remember an old, old, movie where Nazi zombies walked up out of the water to attack. I wish I could remember the name so I could try to find it. It was pretty scary at the time.

"Zombie Lake?"

[Raven1707]

I haven't had a chance to read the thread, but here are the ratings for all episodes aired to date:

 

10-12-14 “No Sanctuary” 17.3 million
10-19-14 “Strangers” 15.143 million
10-26-14 “Four Walls and a Roof” 13.801 million
11-02-14 “Slabtown” 14.518 million
11-09-14 “Self Help” 13.534 million
11-16-14 “Consumed” 14.068 million
11-23-14 “Crossed” 13.329 million
11-30-14 “Coda” 14.807 million
02-08-15 “What Happened and What’s Going On” 15.6 million

[LexiconDevilOne]

Going to Washington makes no sense to me.  Even if the city has largely cleared out, there's bound to be a huge amount of zombies wandering around or trapped in buildings.  California weather would be best, but it's way too far for them to travel.  Instead of going north, they should have headed south to the Gulf where they could find some boats and go fishing.  Certainly, there would have been some place in one of the Gulf states to settle, make a home, plant crops.  And the winters wouldn't be as harsh as up north.  

 

Not enough Daryl (one little scene?) last night for me.

Oil platforms in the Gulf. Surrounded by oceans.

 

I live in CA...way way way too many people here to live comfortably after an apocalypse. I'd hit up a boat, stock it and sail island to island, until I found a nice compound to live in. I'd have an escape route (or several) prepared, just in case.

 

And, for the record, that would be after I hit up all the grocery warehouses I could find (ahem, former grocery salesman here)

 

In any event...it's not just the walkers you have to watch out for. In 'The Walking Dead', it's the people still living that are the scarier, more deadly, enemy...

Edited February 9, 2015 by LexiconDevilOne

[ghoulina]

But don't you risk complete exhaustion that way?  The gang slips by a lot of them if they don't have to kill them.

 

I know they do....CDB does a lot of things that aren't exactly wise. Hence the name. 

 

No, but yea....you could exhaust yourself that way. It's all about risk vs. reward. If you're on the road, malnourished and exhausted, then no - you don't really need to bother ones that aren't bothering you. But I do think that if you've got an established setup, with a decent amount of good, and a decent amount of people, who are getting sleep every night - then you should go out on walker killer runs. Take turns. Or, at the very least, set up traps to kill ones in the area - like Morgan and Woodbury did. If CDB had been thinking that way, they never would have had the numbers they did at the fence. The fence would not have fallen, and Rick and Carl wouldn't have wasted all that precious ammo. 

[LexiconDevilOne]

I remember an old, old, movie where Nazi zombies walked up out of the water to attack. I wish I could remember the name so I could try to find it. It was pretty scary at the time.

"Worst Case Scenario?"...They never made the film, but the promotional video really stands out. You can still find them on YouTube.

[TVFan17]

Was there no room on the 'death express to heaven' for Andrea, Hershel and Karen too?  Or were Beth, Bob and the two little girls taking up all of the spare seats?

[Ouisch]

I just couldn't buy into the whole "We;re fulfilling Beth's final wish by going to Richmond" business. She knew Noah for what, a week or so? She didn't know if anyone else from her original group was alive besides Daryl. So at the hospital she casually mentioned to Noah (after he described his old neighborhood) "Sure, if we get out, I'll go with you there." It wasn't like her heartfelt quest or anything.

 

Washington is a mistake IMHO. I think any large place with a huge group of people is dangerous right now. Resources will be stretched too thin, and eventually (especially if there are hordes of military men) there will eventually be a similar scenario that we saw at Grady Memorial - the women are here to satisfy our animal lust. (I still remember the Tailhook Scandal). Odds are that when the ZA first broke out, the President and all Essential Personnel were spirited out of DC anyway to some safe harbor (Guantanmo, perhaps?). I think our crew would be better off finding another place where they can stay for a while, build their own community, fish, hunt, grow crops. Savannah would've been nice - on the ocean, lots of gated communities, winters not too harsh.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

This might not be the best place for such a general question, but I can't ignore it anymore......

 

Is there any reason for the constant use of the cicada sound effect, other than its a natural by-product of the location(s)??  Without knowing for 1000% sure, I'm pretty certain its used at least once in every single episode. 

 

At times, its hardly noticeable (like last night), but at others, it dominates the background noise.  I've tried to determine that when it becomes louder, it is signifying something important to either the overall story or a moment in-episode, but I'm not sure that is always the case.

 

 

Mostly just a personal thing, but I can't help but wonder if the SFX is just a situational effect or if it is signifying something else.

Edited February 9, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[diebartdie]

It's just typical sound down south in the summer.

[SoSueMe]

"Zombie Lake?"

 

 

"Worst Case Scenario?"...They never made the film, but the promotional video really stands out. You can still find them on YouTube.

Nope, Shock Waves. I found the trailer on youtube, 1977, told you it was old. looks kind of cheesy now, but the visual of storm troopers rising up out of the water scared the life out of me then.

 

I'll try to post the link to the trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEXN4FLGtBk

Edited February 9, 2015 by SoSueMe

[Helena Dax]

I didn't care that much about Tyresse. I liked him and I'm sorry for Sasha, whom I love, but he wasn't a survivor and it was going to happen sooner or later. 

 

Michonne's right, they need a place to stay, they should be thinking about founding their own community. I don't know,  the feeling I've got with this show is that everybody's just trying to live another day but that isn't enough in  the long term. The way it is now,  humanity is doomed.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

"Zombie Lake?"

Think that person might. be talking about the 1977 cult classic Shock Waves.

The best of that horror subgenre IMHO.

Edited February 9, 2015 by MrsRafaelBarba

[SoSueMe]

Think that person might. be talking about the 1977 cult classic Shock Waves.

The best of that horror subgenre IMHO.

Wow, you beat me to it! That's it all right :)

[MrsRafaelBarba]

To this day, those Nazi Zombies rising from the ocean in unison still freaks me out.

They filmed it at an abandoned luxury hotel in Florida, perfect setting.

Aside from the young first mate and Brooke Adams's character, the rest were idiots.

[AntiBeeSpray]

The title of this episode made me think it was a tribute to Lori and that we'd spend 47 minute listening to Rick tell her all the things and stuff he's done in the past two seasons.

 

The cinematography was some of the most beautiful camerawork I've ever seen.  Even if the episode completely lacked dialogue the photograph alone could have told the story.  Awards.  All the awards for the DP.

Re: the radio

 

Did anyone figure out what historical event it was referring to?  Parts of the broadcast made me think Rwandan genocide, but others sounded like the civil war in the DRC.  Was Tyrese a soldier in a previous life?  Please, help!

 

ETA:

 

The tension between Michonne and Rick was crackling like a live wire.  I know this show doesn't really do sex scenes, but just this one time, I think we need an exception.  She wants to start a life with you, Rick!   Create a family, a sense of permanence!  Go for it!

 

^ That. Hands down. I don't see why it wouldn't go there. Those two have kick ass chemistry together.

[candall]

The prison was ideal, so I don't know why they don't go find another one.  Plenty of them around.  I guess they're worried about the next insane megalomaniac with a tank--but those guys are everywhere.

 

If they're planning to find one of those reinforced underground government hidey holes in DC, mmm, no.

 

The Governor morphing into a lunging walker was first rate, but my favorite moment was when they asked Noah if he could support Tyreese while they chopped zombies.  Two seconds later:  Ploop.

[Nashville]

Nope, Shock Waves. I found the trailer on youtube, 1977, told you it was old. looks kind of cheesy now, but the visual of storm troopers rising up out of the water scared the life out of me then.

 

I'll try to post the link to the trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEXN4FLGtBk

 

GREAT midnight movie fare!

 

(Yeah, I used to work in a theater - LONG ago)  :)