S05.E06: Episode 6

[Constantinople]

If my dog was acting like Isis, I sure as fuck wouldn't be galavanting around at some stupid hunt or whatever else they were all doing. Get the god dam vet in there immediately. From the symptoms she probably has a blocked colon and is not long for this world.

Lord, my Ted woke up with a sore neck last week and I had him to the the vet before lunch.

Year after year, season after season, Robert has gone on and on about how he's a steward, not an owner, and the part that everyone must be allowed to play, and everyone's duty, and blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah.

Yet in Season 1 Robert says, in essence, that his tenant Farmer Drake can drop dead because Clarkson is too squeamish and too cheap to administer the only treatment that has a chance of saving Drake.

[ShadowFacts]

 

As for Edith and the champagne...yeah, I'm having my issues with her, but that's not one of them. Actually, to be quite honest, I find the whole thing rather sad and strange. After she said that line, I was just trying to picture her and Marigold in the room together, Marigold with ice cream all over her hands, face, and clothes (have fun cleaning that up, Edith!) and Edith just sitting there with a glass of champagne, celebrating her break from the abbey basically all by herself (Marigold's not old enough to understand what's going on, so she doesn't really count). It's just such a weird little tableau that I'm picturing. It's not very happy, honestly.

 

I also don't get a celebratory feel from the scene.  She is essentially celebrating having just taken a child away from her perceived mother and father, her siblings, environment, and stability.  The child would probably actually have been wailing or softly whining, after all of the trauma, and yes it is trauma.  I can't totally buy into the kids are resilient, they won't remember line of thinking.  A stressful episode like this will leave a mark that ice cream won't help.  Maybe rocking her, reading a story, something like that would be more appropriate than ice cream and champagne, but she really does not have any idea about that unless she has spent significant time with George and Sybbie, which we have not seen.

[SusanSunflower]

Did I miss it or do we know who Edith called at the very end of Episode 5? Before getting the Telegram-of-Death regarding Gregson?  I had thought she was arranging her running-away-from-home at that time ... but did she merely make a hotel reservation? 

[RedHawk]

I like that Cora allowed Robert to give her his silent treatment for a couple of days and then laid it on the line for him. He then had to get his huffy ass back into their shared bed. She's not such a blank or a fool as she sometimes appears. And she did admit that the thing with Bricker was a flirtation that got a little out of control.

 

Wealthy people in big houses did a lot of flirting in those days, sometimes just all in good fun. Some also had outright affairs. There wasn't a lot else to amuse the idle, long-married rich. The husband so obviously going away for a night in some houses was a signal to the visiting male guest that he could indeed approach the wife he had been openly flirting with. I'm not saying Bricker assumed this, just that some husbands turned their heads because the wife had long turned hers, or at least not demanded a divorce. Cora didn't know about Robert's kiss with Jane the housemaid but I'll bet Robert has once in a while flirted with an attractive female dinner guest right in front of Cora. She knew the odds were that his attentions had once in a while strayed from her.

[majormama]

When Mrs. Hughes tells the downstairs crew about Edith's impending news, she tells Anna she'd better inform "Madge". I assume it was a nickname for Mary, since we then saw Anna telling Mary? I hadn't heard anyone call her that before, and was surprised that stuffy Carson would allow it. His precious Lady Mary surely shouldn't be referred to so commonly. 

[lucindabelle]

Not to flog a dead horse but it's just not true hat homosexuality was not considered a serious perversion and medical condition by doctors in 1924.

http://www.drcsilverstein.com/publications/treatment

Surgical Techniques

In 1917, Steinach, a physician, was the first to use a surgical technique to "cure" homosexuality. He performed a unilateral castration on a homosexual man, and then transplanted testicular tissue from a heterosexual man into the castrated patient, in the hope that he would be cured. At least 11 men were operated on from 1916 to 1921. The experiments failed.

In 1962 a new surgical technique was introduced in Germany. Seventy-five men considered sexually abnormal were subjected to hypothalamotomies. Most of these men had either been imprisoned or involuntarily committed to mental institutions. There is disagreement over the effects of the surgery. The surgeons make no clear claims for success, and there is no evidence that sexual orientation was changed.

As I originally wrote I am willing to believe clarkson might e particularly open minded but I loathe the way this show has yet to show us the prevailing attitudes. Grant hams was the most flagrantly ahistorical.

Gross indecency was a criminal offense in England untl 1967. Including acts in private between consenting adults.

There's a movie about alan Turing, the famous code breaker, and what happened to him, out right now.

More from wiki:

In the early 1950s, the police actively enforced laws prohibiting sexual behaviour between men. By the end of 1954, there were 1,069 gay men in prison in England and Wales, with an average age of 37.[8] There were a number of high-profile arrests and trials, including that of scientist, mathematician, and war-time code-breaker Alan Turing, convicted in 1952 of "gross indecency." He accepted treatment with female hormones (chemical castration) as an alternative to prison. Turing committed suicide in 1954.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_Kingdom

I honestly believe that retrofitting like this does a disservice to the memory of Turing, Wilde and all who were actually persecuted. What has Thomas encountered on Downton? Rejection from a boy who later became hi seat friend, a boss who doesn't care, a kindly doctor. We've never seen the slightest iota of the prevailing attitude to homosexuality in England at this time and I call BS.

[dargosmydaddy]

 

Why on earth is Baxter being so helpful to Thomas?  I'd be avoiding him like the plague.

I brought that up several episodes ago. At this point, I've ceased to question Baxter's saintliness, and am trying to roll with it. If it leads to non-villainous Thomas scenes like his screen time last night, I'm cool with it.

 

Though speaking of Thomas... granted I have no experience with this myself, but is it common to self-inject oneself in that particular spot? I know it's a well-padded region, but it looks like it would be awkward to do. Wouldn't the arm be easier? It's not like anyone's ever seeing the under butler with his sleeves rolled up. Or you'd think he'd at least switch injection sites once the infection started.

[JudyObscure]

Maybe rocking her, reading a story, something like that would be more appropriate than ice cream and champagne, but she really does not have any idea about that unless she has spent significant time with George and Sybbie, which we have not seen.

 

We don't know that rocking and reading wont follow the ice cream.  As for knowing how to care for a toddler, wasn't Edith  caring for Marigold in the Drewes kitchen every morning for months, until she was forbidden to return?  I'm sure she didn't just hold her on her lap the entire time.  Edith knew her way around enough to want to carry Marigold up to bed and she was seen at table with Marigold so I'm sure she knows what she eats, etc.

[ZoloftBlob]

I honestly believe that retrofitting like this does a disservice to the memory of Turing, Wilde and all who were actually persecuted. What has Thomas encountered on Downton? Rejection from a boy who later became hi seat friend, a boss who doesn't care, a kindly doctor. We've never seen the slightest iota of the prevailing attitude to homosexuality in England at this time and I call BS.

 

It's not just Robert and Clarkson. Mrs. Patmore knows and says nothing but tells Daisy that her flirting will come to naught as Thomas isn't a man for women. Bates hates Thomas but helps save Thomas from being fired because James is being a "big girl's blouse" about it, and shares a chuckle with Lord Grantham over how Lord Grantham was touched in the showers at Eton. Carson was going to give Thomas a good reference until James made a big deal over it because Thomas can't help who he is, and Mrs. Hughes conveniently comes up with how James was flirty and therefore somewhat to blame for a man turning up in his bed uninvited.

 

I don't really want to see a gay man burned at the stake, or castrated or openly harassed etc but it beggars all belief that everyone in that house knows Thomas is a homosexual and no one ever ever uses that tidbit to club the guy and get him out of the house.

[SusanSunflower]

As for knowing how to care for a toddler, wasn't Edith  caring for Marigold in the Drewes kitchen every morning for months,

Anyone want to hazard a guess just how long it's been?  I was realizing that I never know how long is supposed to have elapsed between episodes -- if any time at all.  Edith called someone at the end of last episode -- I thought either to check on Gregson or plot her escape.  (Edith desperately needs a baby nurse or at least a go-fer to do her shopping and assemble needed supplies before the hotel evicts her for using bath towels as diapers -- unless the hotel's concierge is willing to rustle up someone, no questions asked. One hopes she at least packed a suitcase for herself.)

See Isobel keeping Merton "waiting for an answer"?  

How long has the Prince been unaware of Violet's efforts to find the Princess, and just how quickly was the miracle of locating her achieved? 

Marigold does not appear much older than (the much too old) she appeared last episode. 

Edited February 9, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[lucindabelle]

Keys ZoloftBob that's exactly what I'm saying! Part of the fun of a historical drama is seeing difference between then and now.

There's a way to show that this is not only an unwanted condition.ll but a criminal offense that puts him at risk for jail.

Grantchester showed that last night, while also allowing us to like the poor young gay boy... And one of the ministers is called a "pansy" and people roll their eyes... So we see both sides.

But in the world of DA, it's just a mild tic. It's just dumb lazy writing.... People who don't already know about the actual attitudes won't know, and people surely did NOT speak about it easily let alone chuckle.

Again, I 100% believe Clarkson could be more forward thinking. But everyone else, not so much. In fact it would quite compelling if a character we usually love harbors these attitudes because it's what they've firmly been taught and believed all their lives.

[Kohola3]

It was the dog in the first season, a male whose name I forget (Osiris?) that didn't get along with the Carnarvon dogs.

 

It was Pharaoh  An Egyptian theme....  

 

When Mrs. Hughes tells the downstairs crew about Edith's impending news, she tells Anna she'd better inform "Madge".

 

Madge is the rarely seen maid that helps Edith dress. As a spinster, she's not a candidate for a lady's maid.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Kohola3

[RedHawk]

(Edith desperately needs a baby nurse or at least a go-fer to do her shopping and assemble needed supplies before the hotel evicts her for using bath towels as diapers -- unless the hotel's concierge is willing to rustle up someone, no questions asked.)

 

 

Why would they ask questions? I assume Edith left Downton with at least one suitcase so she's wouldn't look particularly suspicious checking into a hotel. And yes, sending someone out to buy a few diapers and supplies for a child would be something a hotel concierge would do for her. She can handle it, it simply isn't that hard AND she has money.

[morakot]

 

When Mrs. Hughes tells the downstairs crew about Edith's impending news, she tells Anna she'd better inform "Madge". I assume it was a nickname for Mary, since we then saw Anna telling Mary? I hadn't heard anyone call her that before, and was surprised that stuffy Carson would allow it. His precious Lady Mary surely shouldn't be referred to so commonly.

 

I believe that Madge is the name of the unseen ladies' maid who tends to Rose (and probably Edith). Ever since Mary married, Anna was solely her maid.

[RedHawk]

There's a way to show that this is not only an unwanted condition.ll but a criminal offense that puts him at risk for jail.

 

 

Was simply being gay a crime, or was it committing or attempting to commit the act? Huge difference. Aside from the attempted kiss with Jimmy, have we seen Thomas doing anything sexual with another man? Yes, Jimmy could have pressed charges and clearly Thomas feared that he would. However, if Thomas keeps himself to himself he will not be arrested for simply being homosexual.

[ZoloftBlob]

Huge difference. Aside from the attempted kiss with Jimmy, have we seen Thomas doing anything sexual with another man?

 

He clearly was in a sexual relationship with the Duke of Crowborough and threatened to blackmail the man over it. Also he attempted to kiss Kemal Pamuk in a similar move to the one with Jimmy.

 

I don't know what the law of the time specifically stated about a homosexual who was gay but celibate, but Thomas was committing the act or attempting to commit the act on a couple of separate occasions with different people.

Edited February 10, 2015 by ZoloftBlob

[meep.meep]

I think one of the things with Downton, that attracts such a big audience is, that everyone has characters to root for, others to despise and others to be neutral about. Mary and Edith have been the most polarizing characters of the show from the very beginning, so it's not surprising that they're polarizing right now.

 

What does surprise me is how different the reaction in the UK and in the US are. In the UK people were mostly horrified by Mary's insensitive behaviour and while they thought the scene with Mrs Drewe was heartbreaking, most of the viewers seemed to applaud Edith for finally making a decision about Marigold and to leave Downton with her.

Today in the US, the reactions seems to be much more negative about Edith and much more positive about Mary.

I wonder if it is, because the Cora/Edith scene was in the US version? In the UK we didn't see ANY sympathy with Edith, you in the US saw that Cora took an effort to be understanding.

Guess I'm secretly British.  Mary was beyond horrid.

 

Who was Edith making her super secret telephone call to at the end of the last episode?  

[Avaleigh]

So many people ask about Madge that I think the show should just go ahead and give the character a few lines every now and then. I know they say they don't have the budget but they've lost couple of characters downstairs so I think it would be nice to add another person around Anna's age give or maybe younger. Why not especially if we're in the home stretch?

 

Too late now but Madge could have been a character that we see listening to characters like Edith and Rose and then maybe downstairs characters like Daisy and Anna. I'm not saying in every episode but someone who would appear every once in awhile like Rosamund.

[RedHawk]

He clearly was in a sexual relationship with the Duke of Crowborough and threatened to blackmail the man over it. Also he attempted to kiss Kemal Pamuk in a similar move to the one with Jimmy.

 

 

Thanks, I didn't remember those incidents. So he has had some sexual experiences. And yes, made an advance on Pamuk. I always thought Pamuk reeled toward Mary for that very reason, that the encounter with Thomas had shaken him. 

 

However, simply being a gay man -- having sexual desire for another man -- did not mean you could be prosecuted. You had to DO something that was considered a crime, such as engaging in a homosexual act with another man.

So many people ask about Madge that I think the show should just go ahead and give the character a few lines every now and then.

 

 

Or at least let her have a meal with the rest of the staff! Funny that we see several unknown (to us) household servants milling around in the background at times, but when they sit down to dinner "Madge" is nowhere to be seen. 

Edited February 10, 2015 by RedHawk

[helenamonster]

During the world war the British started calling their German Shepherds, "Alsatians," because, you know, "German."  I guess they're sensitive about dogs with enemy sounding names.   Then again some Americans didn't want to vote for Obama simply because of his middle name so I shouldn't roll me eyes.

 

Also, I think it was after 9/11 that you started seeing things like "freedom fries" and "freedom toast" on menus at American restaurants. Yep, changing the names of such common foods, especially fries, to something that no one would ever use in regular speech was extremely instrumental in beating the terrorists.

[SusanSunflower]

IIRC, Turing was prosecuted after outing-himself as homosexual in the course of a police report about a burglary of his home that he suspected had been committed by a low-life friend of his lover ... no complaint, no witnessed bad act, and that was in 1952.

Edited February 10, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[majormama]

 

Madge is the rarely seen maid that helps Edith dress. As a spinster, she's not a candidate for a lady's maid.

 

Ah, thanks, I have zero recollection of her but that makes much more sense.

Thanks, I didn't remember those incidents. So he has had some sexual experiences. And yes, made an advance on Pamuk. I always thought Pamuk reeled toward Mary for that very reason, that the encounter with Thomas had shaken him. 

 

 

I thought Pamuk had more or less initiated the encounter with Thomas (or at least didn't discourage it until it got pretty far) so he could blackmail Thomas into leading him to Mary's room.

Edited February 10, 2015 by majormama

[RedHawk]

IIRC, Turing was prosecuted after outing-himself as homosexual in the course of a police report about a burglary of his home that he suspected had been committed by a low-life friend of his lover ... no complaint, no witnessed bad act, and that was in 1952.

 

 

He was not prosecuted for being a homosexual, under questioning he admitted to engaging in a homosexual relationship. There is a difference. 

I took Dr. Clarkson's advice to be more or less: Accept what you are yet do not act on those impulses. Find a why to make some life for yourself while denying these urges. So I felt Dr. C was being understanding yet keeping with the thoughts of the times about homosexuality.

 

I thought Pamuk had more or less initiated the encounter with Thomas (or at least allowed it to go so far) so he could blackmail Thomas into leading him to Mary's room.

 

 

Yes, now I remember that. Was Pamuk traveling with the Duke whose letters Thomas had or was that an earlier, different situation? Was the mysterious Evelyn Napier involved? 

Edited February 10, 2015 by RedHawk

[jschoolgirl]

From the very beginning, Edith seemed to be out of place with this family. I wonder if she could be Rosamund's daughter who was born in Switzerland and given to Robert and Cora to raise. She is the only adult who really takes an interest in Edith.

Laura Carmichael has indeed said that this is not the case. That doesn't mean that Our Lord Creator won't overrule it by writing it in later.

[ZoloftBlob]

I thought Pamuk had more or less initiated the encounter with Thomas (or at least allowed it to go so far) so he could blackmail Thomas into leading him to Mary's room

 

I think that's possible because Pamuk was sleezy but Thomas didn't have to try to kiss him.

 

And the incident with Jimmy alone was enough that in the real not-Downton world, Thomas would have been arrested and Jimmy would have been lucky to not get tarred with the same brush.

[helenamonster]

I thought Pamuk had more or less initiated the encounter with Thomas (or at least didn't discourage it until it got pretty far) so he could blackmail Thomas into leading him to Mary's room.

 

That's a totally plausible scenario, but I never saw it that way. Thomas was putting his feelers out, asking very careful questions that another gay man might recognize as propositioning but a straight man would not. When Pamuk gave certain answers that made Thomas feel as though he was gay, that was when he stroked Pamuk's face and Pamuk freaked.

[kpw801]

It was Pharaoh  An Egyptian theme....  

 

Madge is the rarely seen maid that helps Edith dress. As a spinster, she's not a candidate for a lady's maid.

Since Edith doesn't care what people think, she could hire a lady's maid if she wanted one couldn't she?  Mary is a widow and she has a lady's maid.

[lottiedottie]

I'm laughing at the idea that Edith can't handle some champagne. These people spend their entire evening drinking (before, during and after dinner). I think they are all well-seasoned drinkers by this point.

[mikem]

As was said before, at least the show is acknowledging it's recycling plots:

 

Bates:  You think I'm a murderer.

Anna:  You mean Vera?

Bates:  No, not Vera.  The other person you think I murdered.

 

Mary was incredibly nasty about Edith in her private conversation with Anna as well as to Edith's face.  JF apparently wants us to like Mary, so I don't know why he makes her so cold and mean, especially since Mary of all people should sympathize about losing your great love.  She was almost as bad as when Edith said to her over Sybil's deathbed, "This is the last time that all 3 of us sisters will be together.  Do you think that you and I can be closer in the future?"  and Mary's reply was, "I doubt it."  The woman is COLD.

 

I think Edith is in for a rude awakening when she finds out how much work it is to take care of a child of Marigold's age.

Edited February 10, 2015 by mikem

[kpw801]

You know, this time last season I would have disagreed with this, but I think you're right. From the rape up until this episode, Anna just seemed exhausted with Bates and having to spend energy on wondering if he was a murderer. I think she still loves him and always will, but if something were to happen where she couldn't be with him anymore, I think she'd be able to pick herself up by her bootstraps and get on with it. But while she's definitely not afraid to give Mary a piece of her mind, I think she'd be devastated if their relationship was in any way threatened or severed.

 

I'm not seeing this at all. It just looks like Edith's making a runner for it to me.

 

While I totally understand LC wanting Edith to find some happiness for a change, I can't get upset when the writer of a show doesn't cater to actors' whims.

I don't think it is a whim and I don't think she was being demanding.  Laura Carmichael is obviously a talented actress and an intelligent woman, just think how tiresome the viewing audience has found the sledgehammer of life pounding over and over again over Edith the Martyr.  I don't blame her for suggesting a little happiness.  She is playing her part but I found her insight into the character quite compelling because people have snapped in real life over less tragedy and trauma.  Perhaps the long term plan is for Edith to join Mrs. Gregson in an asylum because I mean how much can one woman take in real life?

 

Love it or hate it, I think I'd rather deal with JF's ideas as his own than have a plotline dictated by an actor forced down my throat. I feel like shows get into dangerous territory when they start letting actors make demands beyond their positions. Not saying she's being demanding, but when you give a mouse a cookie and all that.

And I know I am not the only one who feels that the show would profit if JF had some help in the writers room coming up with ideas.  I think the concept of the show and the execution of the plotlines was brilliant when it first started out but he has been recycling the same old ideas over and over.  I don't think LC was wrong to make a suggestion.  JF was within his rights to go right on doing the same thing and watching ratings go down the toilet.  I will still watch but I watch and fuss more than I watch and enjoy lately.

[Diane M]

I was just trying to picture her and Marigold in the room together, Marigold with ice cream all over her hands, face, and clothes (have fun cleaning that up, Edith!) and Edith just sitting there with a glass of champagne, celebrating her break from the abbey......

 

I don't see that happening that way.  Edith would want to feed Marigold herself, and I think she would then maybe sing her to sleep.  She would want to cherish every moment until Marigold was safely asleep.....then Edith would enjoy her glass (or two) of champagne.

 

Who was Edith making her super secret telephone call to at the end of the last episode?

 

Probably the hotel in London.  She would want to have a room ready when she arrived with Marigold.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Diane M

[persey]

I'm dreading the possibility of my most disliked soap-trope of all time: when someone with no education and no experience and who heretofore couldn't think her way out of a paper bag, suddenly steps up to run a business successfully. I hope Fellowes doesn't try to pull that with Edith. That said, I would think Edith might have a cash flow problem in the short term; surely what she's saved from her allowance and whatever she gets paid for her column won't support setting up a long term living arrangement in London, complete with toddler.

In the long term, once Gregson's will is probated, everyone must discover he was married - although how no one seems aware of it yet is beyond me. Poor Bertha!

[jumper sage]

Info on Madge here. (Slightly spoilery)

If anyone one of the girls are born out of wedlock I always assumed it was Mary. Going back to the first couple of seasons, Carson makes a speech that hints at it during a crisis about Mary.

I have kids and have never drank alcohol in front of them or when I was caring for them. Holiday away etc, yes. To each his own.

I just love Tom and noticed how everyone in the family loves him for their own reasons.

[RedHawk]

I think Edith is in for a rude awakening when she finds out how much work it is to take care of a child of Marigold's age.

 

 

Which is why she will hire a nanny. She's not some destitute, uneducated single mother like the housemaid who got seduced by the Major. She's a woman with money of her own and now she's inherited a business. I'm sure Edith doesn't intend to spend every waking minute caring for her child in some tiny flat, she simply wants to have her daughter with her and to be a mother to her. 

 

Edited to add: And to give her child everything she is entitled to as Edith and Gregson's daughter.

Edited February 10, 2015 by RedHawk

[blackwing]

I am hating this season. Way way way way too much "woe is Edith" overload. Way too much "Bates is a killer again".

I have never despised Edith more than I did in this episode. Gregson's dead. Everyone knew it. She knew it. She just refused to accept it. She goes and demands to Mrs. drewe that she has to see Marigold. Then later she just goes back and takes her? Poor Mrs. Drewe. She opened up her heart and her home to this baby and raised her as one of her own. Now Edith thinks she can just reclaim her? Not fair.

I don't understand the hullabaloo about Mary's hair. Sure it's straight and short instead of pinned up but it looks very similar to the pinned up version.

[RedHawk]

These people spend their entire evening drinking (before, during and after dinner).

 

 

Which reminds me, at Downton they are only now, in 1924 beginning to have drinks before dinner, right? Did they only begin drinking after sitting down to dinner before? There's a whole thing about "cocktails" and Carson not approving and Robert pouring his own drink -- and one for Tom -- before dinner (which appeared to be straight scotch or something). I don't quite get all that and how it's part of the changing times.

 

I got that last week it was all newfangled and trendy that the Grantham's gave a "cocktail party" rather than a formal dinner. 

Bates:  You think I'm a murderer.

Anna:  You mean Vera?

Bates:  No, not Vera.  The other person you think I murdered.

This slays me every time. I re-watched the scene today and even Bates has a short pause while he realizes that, yes, there are two people his wife thinks he might have murdered. Sigh. Ok, no not her, him. ROFL! 

JF does have a dark sense of humor. The entire police procedural in "Gosford Park" is a riot.

[feminaformosa]

We've never seen the slightest iota of the prevailing attitude to homosexuality in England at this time and I call BS.

 

It reminds me of Mary/Lord G/etc's attitude towards the jazz singer last season. You can see they're about to lose their shit that this new suitor is Jewish.... yeah, like they would have been cool with an African-American jazz singer. At least the new suitor is upper class, even if the money and title are new. Fellowes wants to make them seem all tolerant and modern, when there is no way they would have been. They don't even want a damn radio! They are not going to be cool with homosexuality. 

[LaChavalina]

I'm dreading the possibility of my most disliked soap-trope of all time: when someone with no education and no experience and who heretofore couldn't think her way out of a paper bag, suddenly steps up to run a business successfully. I hope Fellowes doesn't try to pull that with Edith. That said, I would think Edith might have a cash flow problem in the short term; surely what she's saved from her allowance and whatever she gets paid for her column won't support setting up a long term living arrangement in London, complete with toddler.

In the long term, once Gregson's will is probated, everyone must discover he was married - although how no one seems aware of it yet is beyond me. Poor Bertha!

I have to take issue with the statement that Edith "couldn't think her way out of a paper bag." She she got her position at the magazine in the first place because of her insight, before Gregson had lain eyes on her. After their relationship developed, it also seemed clear that he was giving her some education into how things were run, at least in preparation for his absence. And hasn't she been de facto in charge since Gregson's disappearance? It's not like it's Daisy taking over The Sketch.

I don't understand the hullabaloo about Mary's hair. Sure it's straight and short instead of pinned up but it looks very similar to the pinned up version.

But who will help her take off her hat now??? Doesn't she know she's putting servants out of a job?!?

[persey]

I have to take issue with the statement that Edith "couldn't think her way out of a paper bag." She she got her position at the magazine in the first place because of her insight, before Gregson had lain eyes on her. After their relationship developed, it also seemed clear that he was giving her some education into how things were run, at least in preparation for his absence. And hasn't she been de facto in charge since Gregson's disappearance? It's not like it's Daisy taking over The Sketch.

Gregson's been gone for over two years and it's obvious Edith hasn't turned into a media mogul as she's moped at Downton, nor during her pregnant sojourn in Switzerland. And the insight that lets her knock off her co!umns is not nearly the same thing as business acumen.

Edited February 10, 2015 by persey

[statsgirl]

Since no one in the family knows the true nature of Edith's relationship with Gregson, what does it matter if he has a wife?  She's in an insane asylum, she couldn't run the paper from there.

 

As Rob James-Collier said in an interview, it wasn't just the threat of prison if he did anything that would have affected Thomas, it was constantly having to hide who he is and being told by everything, from friends and family to the vicar, what a horrible person he is because he has t hose urges.

 

I terms of re-naming when things are named after an "enemy", I'm still waiting for the apology for "freedom fries" and "freedom toast" since the French actually happened to be right about those WMDs.

 

Madge is the rarely seen maid that helps Edith dress. As a spinster, she's not a candidate for a lady's maid.

Nor to have breakfast in bed.  Sometimes (often) I just want to smack Fellowes for writing Mary to be such a bitch and giving her all the goodies so she never has any consequences for her bad actions, and giving Edith nothing.  Surely I shouldn't be so angry at the writing that it pulls me out of the show.

 

 

Which is why she will hire a nanny. She's not some destitute, uneducated single mother like the housemaid who got seduced by the Major. She's a woman with money of her own and now she's inherited a business. I'm sure Edith doesn't intend to spend every waking minute caring for her child in some tiny flat, she simply wants to have her daughter with her and to be a mother to her. 

 

Edited to add: And to give her child everything she is entitled to as Edith and Gregson's daughter.

Doubtless it will all turn out horrible for her because that's how Fellowes likes to write Edith, but right now I see this as a good thing for Edith.  Her family can barely be bothered with her, she tried to find a way she could stay close to her daughter but Mrs. Drewe ended that, and she doesn't see  herself every marrying because even when she was young no one wanted her.  The only person left in the world who might possibly love her is Marigold so with the money Gregson left her, she's going to take her chance on life.  She's a lot smarter than Robert or Cora (maybe she got her brains from her maternal uncle) and now that she has means of her own and a job that Robert won't stop her from doing, why not make a break with Downton?  Even if she has a nanny (and she should), she'll still end up spending more time with Marigold than Mary does with her son. 

 

 

I have never despised Edith more than I did in this episode. Gregson's dead. Everyone knew it. She knew it. She just refused to accept it. She goes and demands to Mrs. drewe that she has to see Marigold. Then later she just goes back and takes her? Poor Mrs. Drewe. She opened up her heart and her home to this baby and raised her as one of her own. Now Edith thinks she can just reclaim her? Not fair.

Grief doesn't work that way.  My best friend lost her husband a year ago and they had known it was coming for years but somedays she can barely get out of bed she misses him so much.

 

She went to see Marigold because she was hurting so much and Marigold was all she had left of Gregson.  She wanted to hold her daughter and feel life.  Instead, she got the door shut in her face.

 

I wonder if Mrs. Drewe was jealous of Edith's relationship with Marigold and that's why she wouldn't let Edith come around.  Mrs. Drewe was good to open her home to Marigold (although money came with her too), but there was no reason to shut Edith out like that other than plot contrivance. It wasn't like Edith was keeping Marilgold out till late at night or feeding her things that made her sick.

 

I'm with Laura Carmichael, if JF keeps dumping everything that could possibly go wrong on Edith, she will end up mad or catatonic.  It's time to give Edith some happiness, if only to give viewers a break.

Edited February 10, 2015 by statsgirl

[Eliza422]

Yeah they were looking pretty identical in this episode.

In season 4 I couldn't tell them from the third guy too! They could just use the same actor and a couple Of mirrors.

[RedHawk]

On re-watch I noticed an establishing scene just before we see Edith and Marigold enter the hotel room in London. It shows a double-decker bus, which is a number 13, and one of the listed stops is Piccadilly Circus. Could this be a sighting of the Bus of Justice?!

[jschoolgirl]

I wouldn't be surprised if Lizzie Gregson is not in an insane asylum, or, if she is, she was not "insane" when she landed there.

[madam magpie]

Whew. This is a tough crowd. If I'd been forced to give up my baby, whom I desperately wanted, after nursing her, got her back, and then brought her home only to have to hide her because she was illegitimate, I wouldn't have been able to stand it either. I'm glad Edith finally made a move that's right, even if she hurt people in the process of doing it.

A bitchy Mary is my favorite Mary, so I loved her last night. I also think her hair looks great!

I call BS on Clarkson's enlightened approach about Thomas being gay, but I like Thomas and his moustache-twirling dastardly deed-doing, so I hope he'll be all right.

Mrs. Hughes and Carson are sweet. I still like Anna and Bates, but damn. That's a lot of suspected murder for one couple to deal with.

If having a glass of champagne in a hotel room that also contains a child is a crime, they need to lock me up. Also, it's 1924. Women drank and smoked while they were pregnant without a second thought. Some champagne is nothing.

Edited February 10, 2015 by madam magpie

[LaChavalina]

Which reminds me, at Downton they are only now, in 1924 beginning to have drinks before dinner, right? Did they only begin drinking after sitting down to dinner before? There's a whole thing about "cocktails" and Carson not approving and Robert pouring his own drink -- and one for Tom -- before dinner (which appeared to be straight scotch or something). I don't quite get all that and how it's part of the changing times.

I tried to look this up... I thought what was scandalous was that "cocktail party" implied drinks without a formal dinner, as opposed to having drinks before a formal dinner. It seems like cocktails were not unheard of by the mid-1920s? Mostly, this story made me wish we had a badass lady bartender near Downton. Now that would be a match for Tom. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/luxury/travel/1256/the-surprising-history-of-the-cocktail.html

[CloverTracey]

I have been scanning posts to see comments regarding Earl Grantham'S petulant and blaming behavior towards Cora. Where's the outrage? As a faithful and funding spouse, Cora needs to grow some. Time to visit Mama in Newport! Sucks to you Grantham, until Cora gets an apology You are on my)$:/ list.

[PRgal]

I tried to look this up... I thought what was scandalous was that "cocktail party" implied drinks without a formal dinner, as opposed to having drinks before a formal dinner. It seems like cocktails were not unheard of by the mid-1920s? Mostly, this story made me wish we had a badass lady bartender near Downton. Now that would be a match for Tom. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/luxury/travel/1256/the-surprising-history-of-the-cocktail.html

 

Cocktails only for formal events is STILL bad to some.  I toyed with the idea of a "cocktail style dinner" (which is really food stations and passed apps without much seating) for my wedding, but my husband said that his (Jewish) family expected sit down.  Well, so do my Chinese family members, but they're not going to criticize.  They'll just accept that it's a "modern couple" kind of thing and maybe even think it's fun.  We ended up going sit down because the package was a better deal. 

 

To make the post legit: I don't think Marigold is eating any of the ice cream.  It's all for Edith. 

[stopeslite]

I swear, these episodes are starting to put me in mind of the Lost Season of Community, when Dan Harmon wasn't in charge. For that season, the writers only half-understood what made it work, so they took every broad-brush thing and dialed it up to 11, thereby wrecking everything good about the show in the process. That's what it feels like is happening here: Viewers like it when Mary's mean? Now Mary's the worst person in the world! Edith has drama about her baby? Now she's ripping it from the foster mother's arms! It's all utterly ridiculous. 

 

I hated everyone in this episode, except for that one second when Thomas let his guard down with Baxter at the end - when he said "you're daft", he had such a natural, genuine smile on his face. 

[ennui]

I tried to look this up... I thought what was scandalous was that "cocktail party" implied drinks without a formal dinner, as opposed to having drinks before a formal dinner. It seems like cocktails were not unheard of by the mid-1920s? Mostly, this story made me wish we had a badass lady bartender near Downton. Now that would be a match for Tom. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/luxury/travel/1256/the-surprising-history-of-the-cocktail.html

Next stop, Mad Men. Drinks and cigarettes for everyone.

[LittleIggy]

I can't take Isis dying. Wednesday is the third anniversary of my sweet Italian Greyhound Claudia dying. She was 17 yo. I still miss her so much.