S05.E06: Episode 6

[terrymct]

 I wouldn't mind that Mary seems to hate Edith with a passion but can someone tell me why? It seems to be so pointless, especially when someone is grieving a loved one.

 

Remember back in season one when the Turkish man (Mr. Pamuk?) died in Mary's bed, then Mary, her mother, and Anna moved the body and hid Mary's involvement?  They were saving Mary socially so that she could find a husband, iirc.  Edith wrote a letter to the Turkish Embassy, dropping a dime on her sister out of jealously for Mary's inexplicable popularity with...well...everyone.   Mary's horrible, but Edith is no saint either.

[TaraS1]

Kudos on the casting of little Marigold, because she perfectly conveyed the same bored disinterest with Edith that everyone else does.  I was so hoping we'd never see the two of them again after Edith took off with her, but alas. :-/  And I don't know if Laura Carmichael was channeling Elizabeth McGovern in that first scene at the table after Edith gets the letter about Gregson, but that wide-eyed, thousand yard stare with no dialogue was absolutely bizarre. 

 

I really, really love the "Donk" thing.  It's one of the few bits of writing on the show that feels real and natural. 

 

And I know I'm just a mean old woman like the paperboy says (credit: Sophia on Golden Girls), but the meaner Mary is to Edith, the more I enjoy it.  I just can't tolerate whiny, simpering people, and that's all I see when I look at Edith.

[JudyObscure]

If I shared a house with someone whose boyfriend was, say, a soldier who had been MIA for a year, and she had just heard that he was found dead.  I think I would be tip toeing around her for a few days, or weeks even.  I wouldn't need to have known him personally or know whether or not they had slept together, I still would have known she must be in a lot of pain and grief.  When Mary lost Matthew, she had the household whispering around her for over six months, yes she had a piece of paper that made her love legal, but, even without that, you might think she would understand the pain of losing a man you love and grant Edith a few days sympathy to her six months.  Bursting into the drawing room and spinning around with her new hair cut was intended to exact squeals and laughter from the group and was entirely inappropriate in the circumstances.  Edith had every right to expect her family to gather around her in sympathy for a day or two.  They knew she had, for the second time, lost the man she loved, and that should have been enough.  That they would all fall willingly into Mary's plan to make it a "Mary's Daring New Look" party was just so Downton. 

 

Also, Lord Grantham's reaction was extremely unlikely.  In 1924, bobbing hair was as shocking as a face tattoo today.  Other young people might be impressed, but the reaction of a doting father would more likely by upset and grief that his darling had ruined her looks.

[Malaprop cocktail]

* Anna and Bates...what started as a discussion about "you think I'm a kller, therefore you don't want to bear my evil spawn" turned into a happy, joyous,"You're innocent!" What happened to the original purpose of the conversation? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Another scene out that made it seem like Fellowes was in a hurry to get resolution without addressing the point of the conflict.

Not only that, but Anna's reaction only confirmed what he was upset about--that she thought he was a killer. "You're using a contraceptive device because you think I'm a murderer! Wait, why are you so happy?" "Because you aren't the murderer I thought you were!" "Oh, I love you, Mrs. Bates." "I love you, Mr. Bates."

 

Aaaand... cut. Huh??

 

I think it would have made a difference, because it would have allayed some of Mrs. Drewe's biggest fears - that her husband and Edith shared a secret, that he was lying to her about it, and that Edith was some random stalker. Those fears are what caused Mrs. Drewe to cut off contact, and I think that's ultimately what caused Edith to snap, along with news of Gregson's death.

Adding to this list, the fear that Edith was treating Marigold as a plaything and would drop her when she got bored. Knowing the real story would have alleviated that fear as well. It couldn't have made things any worse, unless Mrs. Drewe was prone to gossip, but (as someone wrote in another episode thread) she wasn't written that way.

[proserpina65]

Next week's preview looks ridiculous. "Kiss me...now!" Does that really work on the ladies, Blake? I'll roll my eyes pretty hard if it works on Mary. Have yet to see any evidence that she's that into him at all.

 

It didn't strike me as him making a move - more of a distraction or an act to convince someone else (Lord Gillingham, maybe?) that they were an item.

[proserpina65]

Was Lady Mary especially horrid this episode or did it just hit me how awful she really is? Although, if she killed the rapist she'll be redeemed in my eyes.

That's pretty much the only thing which would redeem her for me.  She's gone from being cold to being a stone cold bitch.  And that haircut does not flatter her face.  (Although the dress she wore to be evil to Edith was stunning.)

Edited February 9, 2015 by proserpina65

[proserpina65]

I was genuinely afraid that Mary was going to take a fall during the ride. I know women rode sidesaddle for leisurely treks, but that seemed so dangerous. there's no control whatsoever.

 

Having done some research into sidesaddles recently for something I'm writing, I discovered that there are special sidesaddles designed for hunting/jumping.  Yes, it is still a bit more dangerous than riding astride, but for an experienced rider, which Mary is, there's not that much of a difference.  It's more of a comfort thing.

[Kohola3]

"She's cracked".  Ha! Good one, Violet.

 

Am I the only one who wondered by Thomas had to involve Baxter in his, ahem, problem?  Why couldn't he drag is own ass (pun intended) to see Dr. Clarkson? 

[proserpina65]

Of course Edith is grieving but I think she was just as self centered as Mary in that scene - what does she want them to do?  I don't think the picnic plan was insensitive.

 

I wondered if some of Edith's reaction in that scene was an excuse to not go on the picnic with the rest of the family.  We saw her making that phone to London last week; methinks her departure was already planned and she only needed a reason to stay home on Saturday while the rest of the family was out.

[abbyzenn]

Edith didn't want Mrs. Drewe to know the truth.  Remember the scene where MR. Drewe tells Edith that his wife thinks he and Edith are having an affair (or something to that effect) and Edith replies THAT"S BETTER THAN KNOWING THE REAL REASON.  To me this shows that Edith did not want Mrs. Drewe to know the truth.  In fact she didn't want Mr. Drewe to know the truth - she wasn't truthful with him in the beginning - but he guessed it.

The whole plan was stupid and not well thought out - trademarks of Edith.  I've come to detest this character more than anyone else on the show.

I also disagree that Violet and Rosamund badgered Edith into leaving the child in Switzerland.  Edith herself didn't want anyone to know she had a child.  There's several scenes discussing this.

 

Edith has never been truthful to the family about Gregson (is there a theme here to Edith's truthfulness!).  They don't really know the depth of her feelings for him.  I thought at the breakfast scene where Edith got the telegram they all knew what was coming and felt awkward and sympathetic to Edith's plight.

She lied to Cora when Cora specifically asked her why Gregson went to Germany.  No one in the family knows that Gregson was married (only Matthew knew).  No one knows that he went to Germany to get a divorce so he and Edith could get married.  So why should the family think this is the love of Edith's life.

 

I will grant that Mary was extremely cruel to Edith in the scene showing off her new haircut.  I think that haircut is terrible - what's up with that section in the back?

 

When it was showed on PBS, I hoped that one of the extra scenes would be one of Sybbie at the races.  There were pictures where Moseley is shown waiting on Sybbie and George who are sitting at their own table.  But my hope wasn't fulfilled.

 

I don't like the whole Danker/Butler stuff - what a waste of time.  This is the type of thing that drives me most nuts about JF's writing.  Instead of concentrating on the major characters - of which there are so many - and giving us more detailed scenes with them, he throws in all this extra nonsense like Denker.

[Constantinople]

I don't think we've seen the last of Edith. Mrs. Gregson in the attic surely will come up again. Perhaps she can't inherit property because she has been declared insane, but certainly This Show just won't pretend like she never existed. Though maybe she could have conveniently died in the interim...

I might be wrong, but I don't think a husband could entirely disinherit his wife at the time, and someone could always be appointed Mrs. Gregson's guardian to manage her share of the estate.

But the show probably will pretend Mrs Gregson never existed. Because a married newspaper editor/owner leaving everything to a woman who wasn't his wife wouldn't cause any stir at all. Not a peep. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Certainly Edith appears to have forgotten that Mrs. Gregson exists. Not just in the sense that Mrs. Gregson is yet another person who inconveniences Edith, but someone who needs to be taken care of. Which is one reason why I'm less than sympathetic towards Edith.

 

So now it turns out Fellowes cares so little about Edith that we don't even get to see her learning about Gregson's death. And on that note, he might have just come onto the set to say "I've finally given up on getting the actor back, so this is my passive-aggressive bullshit about it."

I think I'd actually respect him more if he did that.

[RedHawk]

Also, Lord Grantham's reaction was extremely unlikely.  In 1924, bobbing hair was as shocking as a face tattoo today.  Other young people might be impressed, but the reaction of a doting father would more likely by upset and grief that his darling had ruined her looks.

 

 

My thought was at this point Robert is so accustomed to Mary having her own way that he decided to just forgo the expected explosion (remember, Mary said something to the hairdresser along the lines of "Daddy will explode") and make a neutral-sounding yet negative comment. I gave Robert points for that one.

 

I do wish one of Mary's men had said, "Uh, yuck, that's atrocious" when he saw it. Would have been especially fun if Tony G had whispered it to Mabel. 

Violet's last line (in response to learning Atticus is Jewish), "It's always something, isn't it?" (I hope those are the exact words; they may not be.) Maggie Smith's delivery was priceless. I loved the line, and laughed out loud, even though it makes no sense, given that Cora is half-Jewish and (improbably) had no trouble being accepted by the family and society.

 

 

I took it that she was including Cora having a Jewish father in the long line of Crawley marriage complications. 

[Kat From Jersey]

...No one was totally in the right and I do feel badly for Mrs. Drewe but Edith was not in the wrong.  That  is HER child and she never agreed to give her up for adoption to them.  It was a foster situation.  

 

I am am Edith's side here.  Marigold is clearly totally fine.  She will never remember the Schroeders, who only had her for a month or so.  Edith nursed her for longer than that.  And she knows Edith already.  There will be an adjustment period but the kid is under two and with a loving parent.  She'll be fine.  

 

Anyway...Mary.  Jesus, she is a sociopath...

 

As a parent, I'm totally on Edith's side here.  There's no way I'd be able to stay away from my child.  Having her so close by must have been pure torture!  However, she and Farmer Drewe went about it totally wrong, and not letting Mrs. Drewe in on everything was a huge, huge mistake.  Anyway, JF seems to hate Edith as much as her own sister does, what with the plotlines that go everywhere and nowhere at the same time.

 

And god, Mary, what a frigging bee-yotch!  Ugh, I just can't even...  She was rocking that hairdo, though.  I'd think Rose would have been the first to bob her hair; she often seems so much more modern.  But I got a big chuckle out of the fake French accent the hairdresser had!

 

On the bright side, I adore Isobel, love her relationship with Violet, and the whole new lady's maid/Spratt conflict was fun.  Far be it from Violet to get involved in the goings-on downstairs, or even care about them much at all.

 

And Rose and Atticus are adorable together.

[RedHawk]

Did no one else notice Mrs. Hughes' little happy girlish smile after Mr. Carson proposed they share a cottage in their dotage?

 

 

Yes, she was lovely there, communicating her happiness so well. She's good at managing her manager!

[RedHawk]

Edith wrote a letter to the Turkish Embassy, dropping a dime on her sister out of jealously for Mary's inexplicable popularity with...well...everyone.   Mary's horrible, but Edith is no saint either.

 

 

Yes, it was payback for Mary not only snatching Matthew's growing friendship from Edith but also turning Strallen's initial interest in Edith toward herself, when she had zero interest in him and Edith knew it. 

 

For a while I gave Mary this excuse for her behavior toward Edith. Edith's letter went beyond the pale and could have completely ruined Mary's marriage prospects and social standing. But once all worked out for Mary (as far as getting happily married to the right man) and years have passed, plus the sudden loss of their dear sister, it was time for her to soften and show a little feeling for Edith's misfortunes. However, that didn't happen because Mary's a bitch and there it is, so I'm just rolling with it.

 

I wish it had been Edith to go to London and then return one day with bobbed hair. THAT would show them a thing or two. And then she could have announced, "Oh, yes, I've also brought my illegitimate daughter to play with her cousins in the nursery. Ta."

Edited February 9, 2015 by RedHawk

[Stella MD]

I can't with Mary anymore. I generally enjoy bitchy, conniving, even cutting characters, but I have nothing but exasperation for Mary's treatment of Edith. First of all, their lives are completely mismatched, with Mary always winning and Edith always losing, so she just come off as a giant bully for constantly stomping on Edith without an ounce of human compassion. Secondly, her put-downs are so idiotic that they would sound juvenile for an eight-year-old. "You ruin everything" - seriously? I'm surprised there was no accompanying bratty foot stamp. That line sounds absolutely ridiculous coming out of the mouth of a thirty-something.  Honestly, between Mary's childish outburst and Cora's weird defense of said childish outburst, if I took that scene in isolation I would have assumed that Mary was "special" (and not the way Fellowes intends, but rather kicked-in-the-head-as-a-child special), with the family tiptoeing around her to avoid a tantrum. 

 

Use your frontal lobe, Mary. You're an adult now. If nothing else, go take an extended tutorial from your Granny on how to make an actual pithy comment rather than borrowing from Veruca Salt's repertoire.

[proserpina65]

I did like how Clarkson was sympathetic to the "inverted" Thomas. Ahead of his time.

 

Speaking of Clarkson, I've been rewatching I, Claudius, and hey! David Robb played Claudius' brother Germanicus. Very young and very pretty. Woof!

 

And another Claudius alum was in this episode too. Atticus' daddy was James Faulkner, who played Herod back then. Another bit of pretty.

I thought that looked like James Faulkner.

 

Yes, Doctor Clarkson was well ahead of his time.  He could easily have turned Thomas in to the authorities.  So Yay! Dr. Clarkson.  As much as I dislike Thomas for his treatment of others, he doesn't deserve to be punished just for being what he is.

[proserpina65]

I love how they had to have the hairdresser tell us it looked good on Mary. Otherwise we would have all come to the conclusion that it didn't, and would be wondering whether everyone who tells her it looks great is just being polite. Yay for "tell don't show" storytelling!

Which is hysterical, considering that I didn't think it looked good on her.

[lucindabelle]

The Attitude to homosexuality is so ahistorical it makes me want to scream. Grantchester comes on right after, a show set in the 50s, and last night there was a plot involving homosexuality. Someone was murdered, there was blackmail, there was "queer" written on a wall, there was a father yelling at his son and a boy being taken away for gross indecency.

Homosexuality was a criminal offense in England until the 60s, and the notion that people old enough to remember Oscar Wilde, like robert, would wink at it, is mad retconning from Jf. That said I cruelly don't mind the doctor all thT much as I would think some doctors would be more understanding... However MOST doctors thought of it as a perversion. And mental illness.

Re mrs drewe, yes we were shown in many scenes that she loved her but I mean we nj ever saw any scenes of her loving that child or playing with her, just talking about her.

And I definitely think had she understand the real situation she wouldn't have thought edith was a bored crazy rich girl, and would have understood why rosamund was there, etc.

Mary has been written bizarrely for a few weeks. I didn't get her blaming edith for the fire, either. It was an accident. Made no sense. She seems to have reverted.

[mac]

I was glad to see that the seemingly endless scenes of Edith going to Yew Tree Farm will now be over.  What a mess!  I feel for everyone involved.  I've always seen where Edith is coming from.  Her choices certainly have been the result of her feelings about her standing in the family and in society in general.  But, I really felt for Mrs. Drewe.  I wonder what her next action will be, because I think her pain will play out in some way.

 

Mary.  Why on earth are these men so taken with her?  The relationship between Edith and Mary is just so ugly.  Watching them, I'm glad that I never had a sister.  

 

It never occurred to me that the ticket would be proof that Bates did not go to London.  Maybe I missed it, but the whole issue of the contraceptive device was touched on and then dropped when they started talking about Green and the murder of him.  Is Anna too embarrassed to tell Bates that Mary was having sex with Gillingham, or did she see it as a breech of confidentiality? 

 

Why on earth is Baxter being so helpful to Thomas?  I'd be avoiding him like the plague.  She knows of his father and family and it seems that they go a long way back.  Are they related?  

 

The Violet / Isobel / Prince Russian scenes were fun to watch.  

[izabella]

Edith's great plan to snatch Marigold from the parents she's been with a good long time, and making it all better with ice cream (and a little champers for herself).  Impulsivity like that does not bode well for the stability a child needs (and had).

 

Haha, not to mention she grabbed Marigold and left without even a change of clothes for her.  What will the poor little girl sleep in after she crashes from the ice cream sugar high?  Edith is so unprepared for 24/7 motherhood.

Is Anna too embarrassed to tell Bates that Mary was having sex with Gillingham, or did she see it as a breech of confidentiality?

 

I'm sure it was that Anna didn't want to tell Mary's secrets.  She must not let anyone know what Mary's been up to on her "sketching" trips.

[shipperx]

Which is hysterical, considering that I didn't think it looked good on her.

Oh I laughed because not only did they tell us how 'fabulous' Mary looked. (more than once) but they also said that she was special because most women would look liked a bald farm animal.

And then Mary had to win the horse race (they specifically tell us she was the first woman to cross the finish line), because of course she did.

Mary wins everything... If she wants it (and apparently. Even if she doesn't). Wish Mabel Lane Fox could mean girl the hell out of Mary, but of course that would never happen. Mary is the most fabulous and desirable thing in the world.

[Tara Ariano]

Did no one else notice Mrs. Hughes' little happy girlish smile after Mr. Carson proposed they share a cottage in their dotage?

 

I did in my post. You should check it out!

[RedHawk]

I was glad to see that the seemingly endless scenes of Edith going to Yew Tree Farm will now be over.

 

 

Heavens yes, I hope never to see Yew Tree Farm again, and I hope Mrs. Drewe just keeps her mouth shut. Perhaps she could forgive her dumb-ass husband long enough to conceive a child that would definitely be hers to keep. (And I do think Edith needs to send a large check to somewhat atone for the mess she made of the Drewes' lives.) Speaking of Mr. Drewe, I originally liked him and thought he would prove a very interesting character. Now I'm thoroughly sick of him and his stupidity in keeping Edith's special little secret from his own wife, especially when it threatened to destroy his marriage.

 

Now onto the other idiot couple:

Is Anna too embarrassed to tell Bates that Mary was having sex with Gillingham, or did she see it as a breech of confidentiality?

 

 

She seems to see it as a breech of confidentiality, but Bates is her husband and husbands and wives should not keep secrets for others when the secret could destroy their marriage. Besides, we saw in a previous episode that Bates discovered Anna putting something in her coat pocket at Downton. He asked her what it was and didn't she say something mysterious about it but basically explain it away? So why doesn't she just tell the truth and remind him of that day? Bates also keeps Robert's secrets as part of his employment and he would never breathe a word to anyone else about Mary's "sketching trip". And likely he would believe Anna because it would finally make sense why Anna didn't go on the trip with Mary. 

 

Then again, why should Bates expect total honesty from Anna? He didn't tell her the truth about knowing it was Green or nearly making the trip to London. Even after both had been questioned by the police. Another dumb-ass husband who always thinks he's right. At least Robert took about 2 minutes to realize Cora was right and return to her/their bed.

 

So, who killed Mr. Green? I think it was Mrs. Hughes in Piccadilly Circus with an umbrella handle.

Edited February 9, 2015 by RedHawk

[Malaprop cocktail]

So, who killed Mr. Green? I think it was Mrs. Hughes in Piccadilly Circus with an umbrella handle.

Thomas? Whoever it was picked a day when several of the most likely suspects were in London. Anyone who wanted to protect Bates, Anna, et al. would have chosen one of the many, many days when they had an alibi.

[wlk68]

Thomas? Whoever it was picked a day when several of the most likely suspects were in London. Anyone who wanted to protect Bates, Anna, et al. would have chosen one of the many, many days when they had an alibi.

Thomas all but confessed to Baxter that he sent the letter that brought the detectives back so I very much doubt it was him who killed Green. He does seem to like Anna but that doesn't stop him from still occasionally being a dick to her. I can't see him killing for her honor and he certainly wouldn't do it for Bates. The two of them can't stand each other. 

[fishcakes]

Marigold's side-eye of Edith in the final scene was glorious. The kid's only a toddler, but with one look she managed to convey the sentiment of, "well, you've now ripped me out of two loving homes, away from two mums, two dads, siblings, and stability, but, sure, some ice cream should hit the spot." I'm hoping this year's Christmas special will just be 90 minutes of Edith giving Marigold presents and then, as soon as Marigold starts to play with them, snatching them away.

 

I'm not seeing where Tony ever had a dilemma at all. Mary and Mabel Lane Fox look pretty similar and have the exact same personality.

 

His scene with Thomas wasn't that realistic, but I do adore Dr. Clarkson. I was never a huge Isobel fan anyway, but the fact that she once rejected Clarkson yet is now seriously considering marrying the walking Ambien that is Lord Merton seals it.

 

I'm starting to think Thomas and Baxter might be brother and sister. The way she forgives him and the way he trusts that she'll forgive him makes no sense to me unless they're family. Actually, I think the dynamic is more like mother and son, but they seem to be too close in age for that.

[terrymct]

Marigold's side-eye of Edith in the final scene was glorious. The kid's only a toddler, but with one look she managed to convey the sentiment of, "well, you've now ripped me out of two loving homes, away from two mums, two dads, siblings, and stability, but, sure, some ice cream should hit the spot." I'm hoping this year's Christmas special will just be 90 minutes of Edith giving Marigold presents and then, as soon as Marigold starts to play with them, snatching them away.

 

Snatching them away, then crying hysterically and asking how Marigold could possibly want to play with toys at a time like this.

[RedHawk]

Mary and Mabel Lane Fox look pretty similar and have the exact same personality.

 

 

Mabel Lane Fox is far and away more interesting, fun, and enjoyable. Tony was a fool to toss her and will be lucky to get her back! I hope we see a few scenes where she continues to make him pay just a bit.

 

I'm starting to think Thomas and Baxter might be brother and sister. The way she forgives him and the way he trusts that she'll forgive him makes no sense to me unless they're family. Actually, I think the dynamic is more like mother and son, but they seem to be too close in age for that.

 

 

I believe the story that Baxter was a close friend of Thomas' (likely older) sister. She probably knew Thomas well when they were children/teens and thus has a soft spot for him. As it seems this sister is dead, it would make sense that Baxter cares about Thomas for his sisters' sake as well.

 

As for Clarkson's understanding and acceptance of Thomas, just because many many people in the past were racist doesn't mean everyone was or that everyone was to an equal degree. Similarly, I also believe that many people in the past who knew men and women who were homosexual did not judge them as sick and horrible creatures, but instead accepted that they were "different" and were kind to them, or at least not unkind or cruel. 

Edited February 9, 2015 by RedHawk

[Calamity Jane]

I think I need all week to brace myself for what's to come with Isis.

At this point, I care much more about Isis than about any of the human characters on this show. I'm sure what's coming, and I don't know if I can stand it.  

[Badger]

Thomas would have been still on the boat back to America or at the very most in Liverpool arranging for Robert's and his return home.  So, no, it wasn't him.

 

I don't see anything ahistorical at all about Dr. Clarkson's attitude towards Thomas.  While homosexuality was a crime, there was nothing that said you were obligated to turn someone in to the police if you learned they were gay.  Also, the idea that being gay wasn't something you chose, but rather something that you were born with was also not unknown back then.  Certainly an educated man and a doctor like Clarkson would have known that.  He still referred to it as being a "burden" so it wasn't like he was waving a rainbow flag.  

 

Regarding sidesaddle, that was the way a lady was supposed to ride.  In fact, Queen Elizabeth II rides sidesaddle at The Trooping of the Colours.  At least she used to.  

[proserpina65]

Love Sybbie. "Can I have a look, Donk?"

 

That little bit with Robert was absolutely adorable.  He was just every doting grampa ever.

[Catherinewriter]

"If you think your husband routinely might be killing people to the point where there has to be clarification as to which dead person you are talking about... maybe he's not the best person to build a future with, Anna."

Chattygal, this is so incredibly brilliant that I can't think of anything to add. So I won't even try.

[RedHawk]

Regarding sidesaddle, that was the way a lady was supposed to ride.  In fact, Queen Elizabeth II rides sidesaddle at The Trooping of the Colours.  At least she used to.

 

 

Oh yes, my mother showed me my grandmother's sidesaddle and said she only ever rode sidesaddle, which indicated her gentility. (Grandma died in her late 40s in 1928.) On the other side of the family, my mother's first cousin was born in 1934, and as a child her father only allowed her to ride sidesaddle.

 

Mabel Lane Fox riding astride was not quite as thrillingly shocking as Mary's new bob, but it was a "fast" thing for an unmarried young woman to do.

Love Sybbie. "Can I have a look, Donk?"

 

That little bit with Robert was absolutely adorable.  He was just every doting grampa ever.

 

 

And yet he still has that little resigned grimace to show he's not exactly pleased with his moniker. He's hasn't quite given in to it. Love it! 

Edited February 9, 2015 by RedHawk

[Avaleigh]

I agree with AbbyZenn. Edith made it clear that she didn't want Mrs Drewe to know so Mr Drewe's hands were tied if he wanted to keep Edith's secret as she wanted him to. Edith actually had the nerve to say that she thought it was better for Mrs D to suspect a crush on Mr D or something like that over the truth. I agree that Mr D should have told his wife and that his loyalty should have been to her, but I can also see him hesitating at coming out with the information against Edith's wishes because of the longterm effects something like that could have had for both Edith and Marigold.

 

If I shared a house with someone whose boyfriend was, say, a soldier who had been MIA for a year, and she had just heard that he was found dead.  I think I would be tip toeing around her for a few days, or weeks even.  I wouldn't need to have known him personally or know whether or not they had slept together, I still would have known she must be in a lot of pain and grief.  When Mary lost Matthew, she had the household whispering around her for over six months, yes she had a piece of paper that made her love legal, but, even without that, you might think she would understand the pain of losing a man you love and grant Edith a few days sympathy to her six months.  Bursting into the drawing room and spinning around with her new hair cut was intended to exact squeals and laughter from the group and was entirely inappropriate in the circumstances.  Edith had every right to expect her family to gather around her in sympathy for a day or two.  They knew she had, for the second time, lost the man she loved, and that should have been enough.  That they would all fall willingly into Mary's plan to make it a "Mary's Daring New Look" party was just so Downton. 

 

Also, Lord Grantham's reaction was extremely unlikely.  In 1924, bobbing hair was as shocking as a face tattoo today.  Other young people might be impressed, but the reaction of a doting father would more likely by upset and grief that his darling had ruined her looks.

I see your hypothetical scenario as being different because you would have had more information. You say that the MIA soldier would have been a boyfriend of your friend/roommate. This is already more straightforward than what Edith's family knows. It's also been over two years since any of them have seen him. 

 

Consider that when Edith was first worrying about why she hadn't heard from Gregson in awhile, Cora specifically asks her what's going on. When Cora asks about why Gregson is in Germany--here's a perfect opportunity for Edith to tell her mother that Gregson is trying to obtain a divorce because they want to marry. She could even have just said that they want to marry but he has some business affairs to settle in Germany first if she didn't want to get into all of the business with his wife. (Which IMO she should have cared about the wife factor more than she did but whatever that's a topic for another day.) Instead, she tells her mother that Gregson is spending some time traveling in Germany so that he can tour the castles of King Ludwig. If that isn't totally downplaying the situation, I don't know what is. Imagine though the difference it could have made if they'd known that Gregson had travelled to Germany for Edith.

 

Not one person living in the Abbey knows about the depth of the relationship. As far as sympathy from people in the house she definitely received it from her parents and Tom. When Robert and Cora discuss it together it's clear that they still don't have a full understanding of what's going on. Robert supposes aloud that they "probably" loved each other and Cora doesn't agree or disagree here it's like they're both wondering. Tom felt like Edith's departure came out of the blue. He tells her "talk to me, please" and Edith won't do it. Edith has a bunch of people who would be both helpful and sympathetic if she'd bother to let them know what is going on. Edith chooses not to do that so at the end of the day that's on her. (I think Violet wanted to talk to Edith but just wanted to have a conversation about it in private later. Edith stormed away before she could invite her to the Dower House for tea or whatever.)

 

Isobel, Cora, Tom, Rose--these are all sweet, kind, and sympathetic characters and not one of them saw the insensitivity of Mary choosing to debut her new hairstyle. Isobel in particular is exactly the sort of person who would have expressed sympathy (in addition to being a person who has taken note of Mary's insensitivity in the past) and she saw nothing wrong with Mary carrying on with her life at a time like this for Edith. It's like Cora said to Edith earlier--not one of them knew Gregson well and not one of them knows the extent of the relationship. Edith always referred to him as her editor and she went out of her way to keep the affair a secret so that she wouldn't get caught. She downplayed her feelings so it's understandable that the family wouldn't understand the depth of her pain. 

 

As far as Edith having every right to expect the family to gather around her in sympathy for a few days--I feel like this goes against the formal nature of the family that we've come to know for five seasons. At the same time, Edith *did* receive sympathy and consideration from both of her parents. I just think it's a little unfair of her to expect them to give her a grieving period that was in the spirit of Mary's for Matthew only shorter in length, when they aren't in possession of some very important facts.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Avaleigh

[MarkySnark]

Anyone else have at least a brief feeling that Lady Mary was going to pull a Christopher Reeve and fall off her horse?

[Stella MD]

 

Isobel, Cora, Tom, Rose--these are all sweet, kind, and sympathetic characters and not one of them saw the insensitivity of Mary choosing to debut her new hairstyle. Isobel in particular is exactly the sort of person who would have expressed sympathy (in addition to being a person who has taken note of Mary's insensitivity in the past) and she saw nothing wrong with Mary carrying on with her life at a time like this for Edith. It's like Cora said to Edith earlier--not one of them knew Gregson well and not one of them knows the extent of the relationship. Edith always referred to him as her editor and she went out of her way to keep the affair a secret so that she wouldn't get caught. She downplayed her feelings so it's understandable that the family wouldn't understand the depth of her pain.

All that is well and good, but when she explicitly becomes upset and says "your behavior is bothering me", a normal person would respond, "oh, sorry, I guess we didn't realize", NOT "shut up Edith, you ruin everything." For heaven's sake, it's like none of these people (or the individual writing their dialogue) knows how to have a believable linear adult conversation.

[RedHawk]

Not one person living in the Abbey knows about the depth of the [Edith-Gregson] relationship.

 

 

True, and who is this "Matthew" some speak of as having known about it? Oh, yes, that fellow who's been dead donk's ages. Did he know Gregson and Edith wanted to marry but that Gregson was already married to an wife who was in an asylum? What had Edith told him?

 

I also imagine that Edith's month's-long trip to Switzerland "to improve her French" (and all refusals to let her father get someone else involved in investigations) gave the family the impression that although she was concerned about Gregson's disappearance she was not deeply worried about it. They perhaps have characterized the relationship as one in its early stages and thus not as meaningful as it actually was to Edith, thus they can't understand her pain after nearly two years with no communication from him. (Although most of us still would have given her far more sympathy than most of them do.)

I agree that she should have confided in at least one person, Tom perhaps, the depths of her feelings and how far the relationship had gone. He then likely would have guessed about Marigold, though I was sure he already had. 

 

I liked Cora's response to finding out that Edith had inherited the newspaper publishing firm: "Oh, how generous of him." That at least should have tipped her off that the guy had some real feelings for her daughter and perhaps intended to marry her. Cora is so Lady Bertram.

Edited February 15, 2015 by RedHawk

[wlk68]

I believe the story that Baxter was a close friend of Thomas' (likely older) sister.

 

 

This is my recollection as well. And I think we got a glimpse of their previously warmer friendship during the scene where they're on their way home from the doctor visit.

[RedHawk]

And what kind of idiot with no childcare experience thinks it's okay to drink while alone with a child.

Haha! Plenty of people did back then, and even more recently. Attitudes toward drinking have changed a great deal in the past 30 years. Women drank alcohol while breastfeeding for centuries. The human race goes on...

 

And Edith DID spend a couple of months with Marigold breastfeeding her before she let her be adopted by the Swiss couple. I wouldn't say she had "no childcare experience" whatsoever. 

Edited February 9, 2015 by RedHawk

[Constantinople]

Yes, Doctor Clarkson was well ahead of his time.  He could easily have turned Thomas in to the authorities.  So Yay! Dr. Clarkson.  As much as I dislike Thomas for his treatment of others, he doesn't deserve to be punished just for being what he is.

I guess it depends on what "turned in" means.

I don't think Thomas could have been criminally prosecuted based on what he told Clarkson since Thomas did not confess to doing X, or attempting or soliciting to do X, with Y at time Z. To my knowledge, British law did not outlaw sexual orientation, only specific sexual acts (not that that's much consolation to those disinclined to remain celibate).

If Clarkson had notified the police about Thomas, they may well have started following Thomas around or tried to entrap him, particularly since either Jimmy or Alfred once reported Thomas to the police. So there is that.

Of course, having been the local doctor since time out of mind, Clarkson might well have heard rumors that Thomas was, in Mrs. Patmore's words, a "troubled soul"; and Clarkson might be one of those people who feel the police have better things to do than following people around on the chance they might commit a crime; and he might view homosexuality as a disease with, as yet, no known cure. Even so, he did seem rather blase about it.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Constantinople

[alias1]

Marigold's side-eye of Edith in the final scene was glorious. The kid's only a toddler, but with one look she managed to convey the sentiment of, "well, you've now ripped me out of two loving homes, away from two mums, two dads, siblings, and stability, but, sure, some ice cream should hit the spot."

I was so glad the show chose to play it that way.  Marigold looked understandably dazed and confused at being snatched away from the family she knew.  I'm sure she'll be alright in the end.  Children are very resilient.  But, once a gain, Edith is just being self centered (and clueless about motherhood) .  Let's have some champagne for me and ice cream for you because that will make ME feel so much better. 

 

Fellowes has made her a sad sack for so long, can he now turn around and portray Edith as something other than a simpering victim.  I hope so.  She now has her child.  She should look happy.   I'm really tired of her poor me attitude.  Why can't she stand up to Mary?  Oh, because Fellowes doesn't give her the lines.

 

And what was with Mary's ridiculous little duck tail at the back?  I agree with the person who said we should have had a scene where Tony is laughing about it with Mabel Lane Fox. 

Edited February 9, 2015 by SierraMist

[RedHawk]

I agree with the person who said we should have had a scene where Tony is laughing about it with Mabel Lane Fox.

 

 

I was the one who said that. Here's my dialogue:

 

Tony to Mabel: "I like your way of being fast more than hers. Thank god you didn't hack off your lovely hair. She looks like a bald monkey!" (TM fake-French hairdresser)

 

Mabel to Tony: "Ah, at last you appreciate me more than her. You may re-engage me now."

 

Although if we want to continue keeping this lovely couple apart:

 

Tony: "Also, her morning breath is terrible and she snores."

 

Mabel: "Whaaaa?"

Edited February 9, 2015 by RedHawk

[Avaleigh]

Honestly I wonder if the marriage of the Drewes will ever fully recover. When she says that he couldn't have been more false to her if he'd taken a mistress--yikes. Not good. 

All that is well and good, but when she explicitly becomes upset and says "your behavior is bothering me", a normal person would respond, "oh, sorry, I guess we didn't realize", NOT "shut up Edith, you ruin everything." For heaven's sake, it's like none of these people (or the individual writing their dialogue) knows how to have a believable linear adult conversation.

 

I'd have to watch again but I'm 90% sure that the first thing that Isobel asks is should they cancel their weekend plans because of how upset Edith is. (ETAYes, Isobel does suggest canceling the weekend because Edith is so upset.) Atticus and Rose both look surprised and Rose in particular actually has her mouth hanging open like she's shocked that Edith is so hurt over Mary's hairstyle and all the jolly plans that the family have made. Cora comments about how unhappy Edith is and wonders what should be done. Robert thinks it might be good for Edith to have time on her own to think about everything.

 

I agree that Mary went above an beyond with the comment about Edith ruining everything but I still think Edith is being unfair on her family by expecting them to fully understand her pain and I was glad that Cora told her to her face that she wasn't being entirely fair on Mary.

 

Also, I wonder really how Edith expected them to answer her when she asked them if she was expected to join in on their jolly weekend? I feel like she'd basically be unhappy no matter what. I'm thinking about a variety of responses to Edith's question. "Why not join in? It might make you feel better." "It might be better for you if you have some time to yourself to think." "No, we'll cancel and have an impromptu memorial for Gregson instead." "No, we'll stay here, it's obvious that being around your family makes you feel better. Sorry, what could we have been thinking?" I honestly don't know that there's really all that much they can do to make Edith happy. 

 

When Cora and Edith had their conversation Edith specifically makes a comment about being upset that the family in general aren't feeling personally upset about Gregson. With the possible exception of Mary, they all felt sorry for Edith so it isn't as though this is a case of Edith feeling as though the family is completely ignoring her pain over Gregson it's just that they don't have a full understanding of it. I also think that it's a little unreasonable for Edith to expect them to mourn a man they hardly knew. 

Edited February 9, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Runningwild]

I don't want to watch Isis die!!!!!

Loved the 'Donk' comment. I want more.

I felt so bad for Mrs. Drewe. Edith bugs me with her sad sack moping all the time so maybe that's why I don't feel too bad for her.

[Badger]

Actually, by that time, the medical profession no longer thought of homosexuality as a disease or pathological condition but more as a kind of sexual immaturity or lack of development.

[Catherinewriter]

MarkySnark, absolutely. I didn't necessarily think it would be Mary, but I thought for sure that someone was going to go down.

 

Is a steeplechase simply a form of horserace? 

[Aethera]

Notes as a watched:

When Doom came, it was in the form of a button box, and no one cared.

 

History Lessons with Donk, coming this fall to the Discovery Channel.

 

Introducing Spratt & Denker in Moonlighting 1924. Let's lose important scenes to introduce a character we don't care about!

 

Spent some time shouting at Edith: Tell Mom about the baby! Tell Mom about the baby!

 

Way to go Cora! Glad she told Robert what was what. Hugh Bonneville proves he's a better actor than his character gives him credit for with that hilarious resigned "she has a point" eyebrow action as he gets out of bed.

 

Thomas, you are impossible to pity. Good thing Baxter is a saint. Hilarious that it's Saline.

 

I love Dr. Clarkson.  All I seem to want to do is spin-offs this seasons, so let's get the adventures of Dr Clarkson, MD please. If not for Lord Merton, we could have crossovers with my earlier Mrs. Crawley as Miss Marple series.

 

Man, Isis. Clearly we all care most about the dog. I'm only ok with them killing her off if Robert somehow does a riff about ISIS in his prescient way. "Have you heard about this group of terrorists on the news?"

 

Mary vs. Edith. I kind of loved everyone's reactions after she walked out, because I am a terrible person, but yeesh Mary that was ridiculous.

 

OK so I'm obviously sick of the Bateses like everyone else, but I think they did really good stuff in that scene in the cottage when it all came out. I kind of wish she ended it with "and it really wasn't my diaphram it's Mary's put it together you moron".

 

I continue to enjoy Moseley's evolution. I infinitely prefer Nice Supportive Moseley to Sad Sack Moseley.

 

Mary + new haircut  + riding hat = Sally Bowles. (OK I see the Willy Wonka thing now but still, I expected her to go like Elsie.) I also see Clockwork Orange.

 

Shut up, Mrs. Drewe. And yet, so right about everything. Edith had all the faces there.

 

There is always something, Violet. And my completely unspoiled guess is that the fact that Isobel didn't tell everyone about the marriage means it might not happen.

 

Now that we've got all the snark out of the way, I've read with interest the thread's extended discussions of Edith and the baby, and Mary being a bitch or not (she is, by the way, though I still enjoy her). But I have a hard time taking this show seriously as I watch it, at this point. Like others I find the writing is often terrible, so I do blame that, but I'm left with what's onscreen so JF beating aside I just try to take it as it is and enjoy it. The Edith situation is not black and white. She has some fault in this entire situation, quite a bit of it, but so do the others. Mary was horrible to her, perhaps too horrible, and Cora was ineffective, as she has been. Mary's conduct I find inexcusable regardless of her knowledge of the situation, but for the rest, I sort of get it. Edith reminds me of a sentiment from a Judy Blume book, (at least I remember it from a Judy Blume book: always sulk with the door open. The "I can't talk about it" then sad look then run away thing is her saying "keep asking me over and over until I tell you my problems! No I can't tell you, but keep asking!" which is an attitude I can't stand, and then you add in the Pamuk letter that really was one of those relationship killer moments for her and Mary, so she gets some of my contempt, but her situation is pitiable, of course, and the reactions to her are so sad, and so she gets a lot of my sympathy.

 

I was particularly struck by a couple of upthread posters who noted that there's nothing at stake for Mary. It's so true! The only thing would be her Romantic Happiness, and it's hard to care abou that when she admits to being such an ice queen.  It took ages for her to defrost for Matthew, and so far there hasn't been a challenging suiter to do the same.

[RedHawk]

Robert thinks it might be good for Edith to have time on her own to think about everything.

 

To which Violet replies that folks today do entirely too much thinking. "Before 1914 no one ever thought about anything at all!" (One of the best of the night, however, did anyone think they'd heard it from Violet before? Maybe it was in the preseason sneak trailers.)

 

"No, we'll cancel and have an impromptu memorial for Gregson instead."

Speaking of, is there going to be some sort of funeral or memorial service now that he's been legally declared dead? (I mean, he must have been if Edith is going to inherit.) Guess no one will bother turning up for it since Edith naturally won't inform them, and then she'll be all, "You never came to his memorial service!" when she does finally resurface at Downton.

Edited February 15, 2015 by RedHawk

[Lila82]

Of course Atticus is into Rose.  She's the ultimate shiksa goddess.  This might be the most realistic plotline that the show has ever tackled.

 

We need a spin-off of Carson and Mrs. Hughes adventures in their retirement cottage. Mrs. Patmore can pop by any time for a spot of tea and Mosley and Daisy can give history lessons every other Thursday.  Make this happen, Fellowes.

 

I don't care how silly Mary's latest love triangle is.  Julian Ovenden oozes charm.  He  can flirt with me through my tv screen any time.

 

ETA:

 

That decorative blouse Cora was wearing?  I need it.  

Edited February 9, 2015 by Lila82