S02.E15: Spellcaster

[The Cake is a Pie]

Someone else already pointed this out earlier in this thread, but I can't find the post to quote it.... How is it we saw Grandma von Tassel and Katrina's mother in the flashback? Did her mother have her out of wedlock? Did her father take the Von Tassel name? Was she an immaculate conception? Because Helena Von Tassel should have been her paternal grandmother for her to have the same last name.

Edit: oh, here's another possibility: Katrina's parents were both Von Tassels because they were cousins! =D

Edited February 5, 2015 by The Cake is a Pie

[The Wild Sow]

 

Someone else already pointed this out earlier in this thread, but I can't find the post to quote it.... How is it we saw Grandma von Tassel and Katrina's mother in the flashback? Did her mother have her out of wedlock? Did her father take the Von Tassel name? Was she an immaculate conception? Because Helena Von Tassel should have been her paternal grandmother for her to have the same last name.

I didn't think of that; I was too struck by the age discrepancy!  Are witches in the Sleepy Hollow universe immortal?  Do they age more slowly than us ordinary peeps?  Or do simply retain their fertility well into their 60s and 70s?!

 

Because Katrina was born around 1750 (per her gravestone) and was 30-ish during the American Revolution.  So if her mother was a child (age 7-ish?) in 1692 -- did she give birth to Katrina at age 65??  Or is Katrina actually a lot older than she claims?  Helena should have been her great-grandma.

 

At least the silly corset was gone!

[wayne67]

I may have missed something during the interminable boredom of this season but why did Team Witness assume Henry was dead ?

 

Shouldn't they be looking for a spell that returns souls to Purgatory or at least ask Orion about it ?

 

*sigh* Katrina is dull as is Henry.

[jzygayle]

 

Can we get a whole episode of House Hunters that is just Crane and Abby wondering around, looking at houses?

I'll bring the popcorn and brownies

[Neurochick]

The best part of this episode was Crane and Abbie going house hunting.  

 

I kind of figured Irving would go dark, so that wasn't a surprise.  Maybe Henry, Irving and Katrina will all team up and wind up getting banished somewhere.  Well, Henry and Katrina can get banished.

[topanga]

The best part of this episode was Crane and Abbie going house hunting. 

 

I kind of figured Irving would go dark, so that wasn't a surprise.  Maybe Henry, Irving and Katrina will all team up and wind up getting banished somewhere.  Well, Henry and Katrina can get banished.

I read a review on the episode where the author said the show had to kill Irving in order to give him something to do. So true.

 

Let me chime in with others who'd watch a House Hunting episode featuring Crane and Abbie.

 

Can you imagine:

 

Crane: "You call this crown molding? I call it a travesty and a mockery of fine craftsmanship. Where is the attention to detail, the selection of quality wood, the passionate artistry, for goodness sake?"

 

Abbie: "It's new construction, Crane. There is no passionate artistry. Hence, the term 'cookie cutter.'"  *Pulls him away from the offensive crown molding.*

[Yolapukka]

 

I may have missed something during the interminable boredom of this season but why did Team Witness assume Henry was dead ?

 

It hasn't been explained at all. I've fanwanked that he (or Katrina) cast a spell that caused them to believe he had died, absent of any genuine evidence. For someone who spent so much time obsessively blathering about saving his corrupted presence, his mumsy has certainly been quiet about her grief.

[topanga]

 

It hasn't been explained at all. I've fanwanked that he (or Katrina) cast a spell that caused them to believe he had died, absent of any genuine evidence. For someone who spent so much time obsessively blathering about saving his corrupted presence, his mumsy has certainly been quiet about her grief.

Katrina can't feel his spirit? Isn't that a benefit of being a witch? (It might not be, I'm just blue-skying it). When she was in Purgatory, she knew Ichabod was awake--that's why she could communicate with him.

 

I want to know what the heck Katrina did, if anything, to Irving in the last episode? Did she know he was undead? Did she pretend to cast a spell to separate his soul from Henry's? Or did she really think she'd done something profound? Henry knew how to communicate with Irving, and vice-versa. So they obviously knew what was up. I'm I asking too much by expecting Katrina to have known all this already?

[Yolapukka]

Katrina lies, so even if she's aware of his presence, it's entirely possible she's concealing her knowledge. I kind of got the impression from her actions in testing Irving that she is well aware that Henry is out there somewhere but who can tell one way or another with the careless writing we've seen this season? Especially when it comes to her behaviour.

[Sandman]

Abbie and Crane and the Headless House Hunter? I'm in!

 

Must-Have List:

• hardwood floors throughout (frequent bleeding makes wall-to-wall carpeting inappropriate)
• granite scullery; ale storage
• top-of-line kitchen with fireplace accommodating whole side of beef
• 2-horse livery stable
• entertaining space
• high ceilings
• man-cave / supernatural dungeon
• massive library
• original period details, damn you!

 

Oh, and I forgot:

• At least two bedrooms
• Nursery with pentagram inlaid on floor for future hellspawn

Edited February 5, 2015 by Sandman

[topanga]

 

Oh, and I forgot:

    At least two bedrooms

    Nursery with pentagram inlaid on floor for future hellspawn

But will you need the hellspawn pentagram nursery if the baby belongs to Abbie and Ichabod?   *ducks head in shame and slinks from the room*

[Sandman]

I'm sure they could swap out the pentagram inlay for a nice silver protection circle to keep the nasties at bay, should the Witnesses, er, get their eschaton goin' on. If you know what I mean, and I'm sure you do.

[Amethyst]

Don't forget the master suite with the enormous walk-in closet and separate shower/bath!  And it better be a jetted tub.  The Witnesses need to relax after a long day of crime fighting and killing monsters.

 

And I seriously think that Crane would love a farmhouse kitchen sink.  

[Sandman]

... which he would call "your newfangled built-in basin!"

[jhlipton]

I think it's time for Abbie to skip town as soon as possible and no, it's not because of Frank. I've never feared more for her life, than when Ichabod gave his "heartfelt" speech about the real reasons they are fighting. Knowing that manipulative hypocrite, what he really meant was: "We fight for something, we fight for my beloved Katrina, my family, the life I want with them. Prepare to die for me, Lieutenant!"

It would have been a lot more meaningful if he had been fighting against Katrina even a little bit. Abbie's never doubted his being a Witness, except where it coflicts with his crappy family.

 

 

I'm upset that what we really cared about - Ichabod redrawing the map and all of his "betrayals" gets barely one episode to fix it - even though the whole map thing was NEVER addressed, yet this show is spending an ENTIRE FRECKING SEASON resolving all of the CFD and Crane marriage and Katrina crap.

I think you're going to have to headcanon that the map never happened -- I think that the writers have. It's the only way to move forward.

Sucks but it is what it is. 

 

Now she's just StruggleDarkWitch.

LOL and yep!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I didn't think of that; I was too struck by the age discrepancy! Are witches in the Sleepy Hollow universe immortal? Do they age more slowly than us ordinary peeps? Or do simply retain their fertility well into their 60s and 70s?!

Because Katrina was born around 1750 (per her gravestone) and was 30-ish during the American Revolution. So if her mother was a child (age 7-ish?) in 1692 -- did she give birth to Katrina at age 65?? Or is Katrina actually a lot older than she claims? Helena should have been her great-grandma.

What I found myself wondering about was how Katrina or anyone else knew the story about how her grandmother confronted the guy and he killed her. If she died, she didn't have any time to tell her story to someone.

[DeLurker]

Was Grammy Van Tassel dead dead or SH dead?

Color me surprised that Kent didn't fall in love with Helena despite the fact that she's married and then develop insta-obsession with Katrina. The writers showed great restraint by not going that route.

[Clanstarling]

 

The retcon with her explaining about her powers being weakened by purgatory was such an obvious attempt to explain her suckage to the complaining fan base that my eyes nearly rolled out of my head.

I laughed when she said that - how long has Katrina been out of Purgatory, and they're just NOW mentioning it?

 

I thought the chemistry between Henry and Irving was pretty good in that last scene, though I don't like that they're working together.

Edited February 8, 2015 by clanstarling

[vanarnd1]

For considering this was a Katrina heavy episode it was better than I expected but I am not sure how much confidence i have in what was set up for the last few episodes. Are they going to have every villian in this show be a candidate to be reedemed? Between Henry, Irving, and now maybe Katrina how do the Witnesses even go about fighting them? I would like if Katrina becomes evil but if it just becomes CFD part 2 with Icahbod trying to save her there is not much point to it.

 

It is similar to the betrayal conversation Abbie and Ichabod had. They keep dancing around what Ichabod has done in the past and by not really confronting it and only talking in subtext, it leaves the door open for him to choose Katrina and his family in the end which would be awful for the show IMO. I feel like the storylines for Katrina and Henry have to be resolved by the end of the season and I am not sure if 3 episodes is enough to do it at this point.

[jhlipton]

it leaves the door open for him to choose Katrina and his family in the end which would be awful for the show IMO. 

That's why his speech about his resolve for fighting was so much BS.  Of course he'll fight if it helps DarkStruggleWitch but what if he's asked do something she's opposed to?  That is the only action that matters now.

[phoenics]

I'm still trying to figure out how Katrina (who wasn't even born yet) knew who Solomon Kent was - by face. It would be one thing if she knew him by name - but no - she recognized his face.

How is that even remotely possible?

The writing for Katrina is terrible - she's still just an exposition fairy in a corset.

I don't want her evil - I want her gone.

I know the spoilers say

that she will do something that breaks her bond with Ichabod forever - I guess that's the trying to kill him part?

, but I do NOT believe or trust that the writers will just let that be the end without us having to go through a massive redemption arc for her, where she can wreak havoc on the show AGAIN.

[RiddleyWalker]

I'm still trying to figure out how Katrina (who wasn't even born yet) knew who Solomon Kent was - by face. It would be one thing if she knew him by name - but no - she recognized his face.

How is that even remotely possible?

The writing for Katrina is terrible - she's still just an exposition fairy in a corset.

I don't want her evil - I want her gone.

I know the spoilers say

that she will do something that breaks her bond with Ichabod forever - I guess that's the trying to kill him part?

, but I do NOT believe or trust that the writers will just let that be the end without us having to go through a massive redemption arc for her, where she can wreak havoc on the show AGAIN.

Dead Katrina ("real" dead not "Sleepy Hollow dead") would make my day. ;)  I would love to have a really "good" Eeeevil character on the show. You know, the ones you boo and throw popcorn at. But I don't think KW can do that nor can the writers pull that off with Katrina. 

[Watermelon]

Yeah it made no sense.  There was no context for Crane needing to get some kind of revenge on Kent or whatever.  He was just a bad guy who needed to be stopped.

 

I think he was angry because Abby compared him to Kent.  Ichy tends to make weird decisions that rarely benefit Abbie and I thought he externalized his anger/fear at the thought that he may one day harm Abbie enough to kill her, like Solomon did BlondeKatrina and the love interest.

[theatremouse]

I'm still trying to figure out how Katrina (who wasn't even born yet) knew who Solomon Kent was - by face. It would be one thing if she knew him by name - but no - she recognized his face.

How is that even remotely possible?

Didn't she say he was the most famous evil witch dude or something? I think it's just as reasonable she'd recognize him by face as any modern human would recognize a famous figure from the same time period by face.

[Yolapukka]

 

Didn't she say he was the most famous evil witch dude or something? I think it's just as reasonable she'd recognize him by face as any modern human would recognize a famous figure from the same time period by face.

 

It's more likely that someone living in the modern day would recognize him because we have access to resources that people of his time or slightly after would not. He wasn't famous in the way that his face was literally common currency. How many people of his time and position would have had portraits that were circulated or lasted outside of family? I suppose we could fanwank that she had seen an image of his face in some historic account or book of spells/other witchy publication and that it was sufficiently accurate that she could recognize him, especially given the familial connection. It would have made the most sense if it was clear she had known who he was from her time in purgatory.  I think it was just not a well thought out piece of dialogue.

Edited February 8, 2015 by yuggapukka

[pcta]

Maybe it's a witchy thing? Maybe they can telepathically share memories? So coven members would have the memories of past members . . . Oops no wait that's the Reverend Mothers in Dune. Never mind.

[jhlipton]

Maybe it's a witchy thing? 

 

Then how did Katrina do it?  This has been your DarkStruggleWitch joke of the day.

[DJG1122]

I didn't think of that; I was too struck by the age discrepancy!  Are witches in the Sleepy Hollow universe immortal?  Do they age more slowly than us ordinary peeps?  Or do simply retain their fertility well into their 60s and 70s?!

 

Because Katrina was born around 1750 (per her gravestone) and was 30-ish during the American Revolution.  So if her mother was a child (age 7-ish?) in 1692 -- did she give birth to Katrina at age 65??  Or is Katrina actually a lot older than she claims?  Helena should have been her great-grandma.

 

!

Back in early S1, weren't the 4 who speak as 1 with the weird teeth and the Reverend (don't remember his name) part of Katrina's coven? Weren't they the ones who banished her to Purgatory? Wouldn't that make them 265ish years old?

[cincivic]

I was so bothered at the age discrepancy of Katrina and he ancestors that I had a hard time with the rest of the episode. I agree with the above poster that Helena should have been Katrina's great-grandmother. That was such easy writing. Kent was an interesting character and he should have been banished somewhere so he can make occasional appearances. Normally, I am not a fan of Henry but I did enjoy him in the parking lot.

Was it just me or did it seem like Tom Mison looked extra hot this episode?

[savinggrace]

The fact that they don't even take time to get the time periods correct and match up the ages of the chracters is evidence of the type of writers we're dealing with --just sloppy and lazy all around. They were eager to include the Salem witch trials because Katrina's a witch and, you know, Salem happened.

Katrina also would not know what transpired when Kent was alone in a barn with the Quaker woman he assaulted-- especially since he covered it up, but Katrina has to be made to appear useful so...

Edited February 8, 2015 by savinggrace

[Watermelon]

So 200 years ago, when people spoke about ancestors, did they use language like "great" "great great" and the like?  

 

I can't fanwank the years, but I could see Katrina meaning "a" grandmother and not necessarily her direct grandmother.

[Yolapukka]

 

I can't fanwank the years, but I could see Katrina meaning "a" grandmother and not necessarily her direct grandmother.

 

I could see that too, except IIRC, she made it clear that her mother had been the child at Helena's side.

[Watermelon]

I could see that too, except IIRC, she made it clear that her mother had been the child at Helena's side.

Welp.

 

Maybe Katrina was a magic baby, birthed by her mother at the ripe old age of (insert old ass age that makes sense).  Creation and Destruction having magic of a dark source, hence why Katrina is inherently evil.

 

Bam. I win.

[Yolapukka]

 

Maybe Katrina was a magic baby, birthed by her mother at the ripe old age of (insert old ass age that makes sense).  Creation and Destruction having magic of a dark source, hence why Katrina is inherently evil.

 

 

I've been hoping they take that route from the moment they showed that red-haired brat. I think this season the speculation along with the gaps and accidents of writing are better than the intent. * Sighs* Most of the Katrina-is shady stuff comes out of that careless writing, they ought to follow the breadcrumbs they, themselves dropped and go full-on inherently evil with her, assuming a piano doesn't fall on her head when she tries to levitate a feather.

[DearEvette]

I was so bothered at the age discrepancy of Katrina and he ancestors that I had a hard time with the rest of the episode.

 

That was me with the Abigail Adams episode.  The Crane date night was rather boring so I had a lot of time to nitpick.  So when Crane said Katrina was the mid wife to all of Abigail Adams' kids I was like... wha???  If Katrina was born in 1750 then she was 15 years old when Abigail Adams had her first kid.  Midwifery in the late 1700s as somewhat regulated & a 15 y.o would not have been a chief midwife esp of a well to do family like the Adamses.   A young unmarried woman would not have been encouraged to even be in a birthing room.

[archiesmom]

I'm still bothered that Katrina is a Vantassel, her mother was a Vantassel and her grandmother was a Vantassel. Was it normal for them to not take their husbands name? I swear we were told Katrina was being married off by her father so I guess I'm just assuming he would've been her namesake. Maybe they just liked using the name Vantassel this whole episode. Like when Ichabod went postal on Solomon Kent and called her Katrina Vantassel instead of Crane. 

[Mrs OldManBalls]

But Ichabod and Abbie at the open house?  Pure gold.  Athough you do not need granite counter tops, Ichabod, that's just nonsense.  Squeaky bananas and cinnamon mini-muffins for the win.

 

My dog came running into the room when Ichabod squeaked that banana. 

 

Fuck it, that "Good morning, gentlemen" followed by magic necksnaps was awesome and I give the episode an A for that alone.

 

That was awesome. Guess Henry has a soft spot for that woman and her son. 

 

 

Solomon was hot. I totally would have let him kiss me. 

[johntfs]

That was awesome. Guess Henry has a soft spot for that woman and her son. 

 

 

I think it was more "Just because I'm the new lord of Evil doesn't mean I have to put up with criminal riff-raff bothering the people who maintain my living space."

[HalcyonDays]

Was Grammy Van Tassel dead dead or SH dead?

Color me surprised that Kent didn't fall in love with Helena despite the fact that she's married and then develop insta-obsession with Katrina. The writers showed great restraint by not going that route.

 

Again, more glaring inconsistencies with the writers and their inability or desire to actually create a BIBLE for the show, to keep things straight. Remember how Katrina claimed to not know she was knocked up and told Ichabod that...Then we get the date episode and she DID know. A couple of people tweeted two different writers. one producer. Do you know what the response was? "We're looking into it." and "maybe is was something we missed." Dudes...There were only 13 episodes in season one and you can't remember a major detail like that.

 

As for the insta-obsession with all things Katrina/Van Tassel - how do you know that wasn't the case BEFORE the changes. I'd put money on that being the case (and Goffman's own self-insert) before FOX stepped in and said "change it!". *wink*

 

I did think it was weird that she recognized Solomon on sight. Yes, portraits existed, but there was the artist's talent. But not everyone could afford to have a portrait done for them, and if they could, it's not like the portrait was available for everyone to see. That's what bothered me a bit. Solomon didn't actually look too well off, and even Katrina says "times were hard." so where would the money come from to get a portrait made. On top of that, the flashback says that they sent Kent to Purgatory right after. So why would the witches need to know what the dude looked like, and why would they be afraid of him. He was trapped in The Purg for hundreds of years. There was no mention of him being able to flit in and out, so why was he so feared in the real world....

 

See, that's what I get for trying to introduce some logically analysis into the show....*sigh*.

 

I was so bothered at the age discrepancy of Katrina and he ancestors that I had a hard time with the rest of the episode. I agree with the above poster that Helena should have been Katrina's great-grandmother. That was such easy writing. Kent was an interesting character and he should have been banished somewhere so he can make occasional appearances. Normally, I am not a fan of Henry but I did enjoy him in the parking lot.

Which is yet another missed opportunity for the show. The long-livedness. They never explained why the Four Sisters were around for so long. But why not apply that to Katrina too. Make her long-lived too, something that would be an obstacle in the marriage (Crane would grow old, but she would not). It could have actually been Katrina in Salem, and she could have demonstrated some actual powers *cough, yeah right* or something. Again, great possibilities squandered.

 

Was it just me or did it seem like Tom Mison looked extra hot this episode?

 

No, not just you. He was looking quite fine this episode. Very very fine....I'm gonna miss him on my screen is there no season 3. What a waste.

[DeLurker]

HalcyonDays - I know this has been a rough season for SH, but you probably need to step away for a breather...you're looking for logic.  You're looking for consistency.  You're looking for a four leaf clover.

 

An easy answer (to part of the plotholes) would have been for Kent and Katrina cross paths in Purgatory.  He could have told his side of the story to her there.  Hell, they both had a couple of hundred years to kill.

 

I think they make the writers wear corsets when writing Katrina scenes and they are cinched up so tight that oxygen is not making the requisite rounds to the brain cells.

 

 

As for the insta-obsession with all things Katrina/Van Tassel - how do you know that wasn't the case BEFORE the changes. I'd put money on that being the case (and Goffman's own self-insert) before FOX stepped in and said "change it!". *wink*

I'm totally betting this was what was originally planned.  And filmed.  And thought to be Emmy worthy.  And scrapped by FOX just as you say.

[jhlipton]

HalcyonDays - I know this has been a rough season for SH, but you probably need to step away for a breather...you're looking for logic.  You're looking for consistency.  You're looking for a four leaf clover.

 

You're ;looking for a map.  I could draw you one...

 

Sorry!

[DeLurker]

You're ;looking for a map.  I could draw you one...

 

Sorry!

Truth in Posting:  The map leads to Purgatory.

[HalcyonDays]

HalcyonDays - I know this has been a rough season for SH, but you probably need to step away for a breather...you're looking for logic.  You're looking for consistency.  You're looking for a four leaf clover.

 

An easy answer (to part of the plotholes) would have been for Kent and Katrina cross paths in Purgatory.  He could have told his side of the story to her there.  Hell, they both had a couple of hundred years to kill.

 

I think they make the writers wear corsets when writing Katrina scenes and they are cinched up so tight that oxygen is not making the requisite rounds to the brain cells.

 

This made me laugh, DeLurker!! What the hell was I thinking, looking for logic. Foolish me. I guess it was dumb of me to have writers actually remember some stuff and link certain aspects of the show. Duh. I agree about the corset + lack of oxygen. It's the only explanation.

 

I'll just focus on the Ichabbie and the pretty British man.

 

Truth in Posting:  The map leads to Purgatory.

 

And Katrina. And we all know how that turned out.....

[Dobian]

 

Abbie and Crane and the Headless House Hunter? I'm in!

 

Must-Have List:

• hardwood floors throughout (frequent bleeding makes wall-to-wall carpeting inappropriate)
• granite scullery; ale storage
• top-of-line kitchen with fireplace accommodating whole side of beef
• 2-horse livery stable
• entertaining space
• high ceilings
• man-cave / supernatural dungeon
• massive library
• original period details, damn you!

 

Oh, and I forgot:

• At least two bedrooms
• Nursery with pentagram inlaid on floor for future hellspawn

 

"And this beautiful colonial cottage is listed at $1,200,000.  What is your current income so we can see about pre-qualifying you for a loan?"

 

"Income?  Ummm...what income?"

[Watermelon]

the hell?