Spoilers With Speculation

[gonzosgirrl]

18 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

https://ew.com/tv/supernatural-jared-padalecki-final-season-interview/?utm_campaign=entertainmentweekly_entertainmentweekly&utm_content=manual&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_term=5fb697e4a9f908000141c472

Jared talking about the finale.

No real spoilers., except he describes it as:  ""wonderfully tragic" and "wonderfully optimistic."

Tragic = Death (one or both)?

Optimistic = Heaven's a good place now?

[Aeryn13]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Tragic = Death (one or both)?

Optimistic = Heaven's a good place now?

I think ultimately death of both. Even if they die at different times, I don't think a Winchester will be alive when the end credits roll.

Optimistic in that they are an inspiration and leave a brighter future? 

[KayCordingly]

9 hours ago, Terese said:

We have seen Dean die. Heartfelt and shattering in season 3; as well as comically. We saw him brutally gunned down in season 5. And again killed, in season 9, which was really touching. They can't top that. I hope they don't do that.

I get what you're saying, but at the same time the stakes are real this time. I didn't even bat an eye when Metatron killed him at the end of season 9. Cos they'd done it too many times before, and I knew that they weren't going to kill off either of their 2 main leads. But I know that if he dies tonight, it's permanent.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, KayCordingly said:

I get what you're saying, but at the same time the stakes are real this time. I didn't even bat an eye when Metatron killed him at the end of season 9. Cos they'd done it too many times before, and I knew that they weren't going to kill off either of their 2 main leads. But I know that if he dies tonight, it's permanent.

Unfortunately, I think the ship has sailed on any investment in 'permanent' death on this show. Even with Chuck gone, and Gack promising to be hands-off, we know that if there were another season, or if there is a reboot down the road, 'death' will be undone. They've conditioned us to this. That's why I hope that it doesn't end that way.

This though???

8 minutes ago, KayCordingly said:

I didn't even bat an eye when Metatron killed him at the end of season 9.

I can't imagine not being affected by those scenes. Dean's 'death' is one of the most heartbreakingly real I've ever seen on tv. That grunt/gasp he makes and the death in his eyes will haunt me forever. Knowing he would be back somehow, some way, didn't diminish it at all (for me).

[Binns]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

https://ew.com/tv/supernatural-jared-padalecki-final-season-interview/?utm_campaign=entertainmentweekly_entertainmentweekly&utm_content=manual&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_term=5fb697e4a9f908000141c472

Jared talking about the finale.

No real spoilers., except he describes it as:  ""wonderfully tragic" and "wonderfully optimistic."

Spiffy new haircut!

[ILoveReading]

https://www.youtube.com/embed/4S-43_0UWzA

Another sneak peek of the pie scene.

I've seen spec that this could be Sam hallcinating since Dean is dead and he can't cope.  It would explain why Dean says to keep living and honor the sacrifice when talking about Cas.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/4S-43_0UWzA

Another sneak peek of the pie scene.

I've seen spec that this could be Sam hallucinating since Dean is dead and he can't cope.  It would explain why Dean says to keep living and honor the sacrifice when talking about Cas.

I"m surprised they released a two minute long clip. Between this and the one by the car, we've seen 10% of the episode.

I'm not even mad about the pie in the face. At least Sam seems to be showing some affection and humor with Dean, opposed to the open disdain of the last few years. I'll take it, though I'll be sad if it's a hallucination.

Is it bad that I want to lick the whipped cream from Dean's eyelashes?

[KayCordingly]

Are... are we back? Can I resume enjoying these last few hours with my SPN internet fam now?

[KayCordingly]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Unfortunately, I think the ship has sailed on any investment in 'permanent' death on this show. Even with Chuck gone, and Gack promising to be hands-off, we know that if there were another season, or if there is a reboot down the road, 'death' will be undone. They've conditioned us to this. That's why I hope that it doesn't end that way.

This though???

I can't imagine not being affected by those scenes. Dean's 'death' is one of the most heartbreakingly real I've ever seen on tv. That grunt/gasp he makes and the death in his eyes will haunt me forever. Knowing he would be back somehow, some way, didn't diminish it at all (for me).

I mean you're right about the acting; Jensen's great in it. I guess I was already just too jaded at that point by SPN abusing death for dramatic effect. I remember actually rolling my eyes during that scene.

[Aeryn13]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/4S-43_0UWzA

Another sneak peek of the pie scene.

I've seen spec that this could be Sam hallcinating since Dean is dead and he can't cope.  It would explain why Dean says to keep living and honor the sacrifice when talking about Cas.

Maybe the entire episode are hallucinations/flashbacks from both as they lay dying and the final scene makes it clear and has them move on?

[Binns]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/4S-43_0UWzA

Another sneak peek of the pie scene.

I've seen spec that this could be Sam hallcinating since Dean is dead and he can't cope.  It would explain why Dean says to keep living and honor the sacrifice when talking about Cas.

It’s such a sweet scene! I hope the whole episode makes me happy like this scene and the car one do. I don’t want to be bitter about this episode in particular. I don’t consider it to be part of the season 15 suckfest. 

[PAForrest]

23 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I"m surprised they released a two minute long clip. Between this and the one by the car, we've seen 10% of the episode.

I'm not even mad about the pie in the face. At least Sam seems to be showing some affection and humor with Dean, opposed to the open disdain of the last few years. I'll take it, though I'll be sad if it's a hallucination.

Is it bad that I want to lick the whipped cream from Dean's eyelashes?

I think the pie in the face may be an adlib. If you look off to Jensen's left, you see Bob Singer a couple times - blurry, but it's him. And he's laughing about the pie in the face, so I think it was an adlib.

I hope this is Sam's hallucination, because Dean being so blase about Cas dying for him - AFTER he told him he loved him - makes no sense at all. If it isn't a hallucination, looks petty on the part of the writer.

And no, you wouldn't be human if you didn't want to lick Dean's eyelashes - or his entire face! LOL!

There's definitely going to be death, and probably both - but at what point and how is the question.

Edited November 19, 2020 by PAForrest

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

I think the pie in the face may be an adlib. If you look off to Jensen's left, you see Bob Singer a couple times - blurry, but it's him. And he's laughing about the pie in the face, so I think it was an adlib.

I hope this is Sam's hallucination, because Dean being so blase about Cas dying for him - AFTER he told him he loved him - makes no sense at all. If it isn't a hallucination, looks petty on the part of the writer.

And no, you wouldn't be human if you didn't want to lick Dean's eyelashes - or his entire face! LOL!

There's definitely going to be death, and probably both - but at what point and how is the question.

I don't know how much time is supposed to have passed here, but I don't think Dean is being blase. One, because he's trying to comfort Sam, not himself*, so of course he's going to try and encourage him, and also, he's exactly right - living their lives is the best way to repay Cas's sacrifice. He didn't say it without emotion, IMO. I'm sure that people are going to have a field day with it though.

*He kind of did this with John's death, too. His wild emotions were for himself, but with Sam he was stoic.

Edited November 19, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[tessathereaper]

On 11/18/2020 at 4:25 PM, Wynne88 said:

The thing that bothered me in that interview was when Jensen said they sat down with the writers, but it turned out not to be a brain storming session at all.  Instead they were told 'here's what we have, take it or leave it'.  Based on what Jared and Jensen had said at the end of last season about getting to sit down with the writers, I'm pretty sure they expected to be part of the discussion.  If I were Jensen, that right there would have made me less than enthusiastic about the ending.

Jensen has mentioned this before, I remember because a lot of us were like FU DABB! when we heard it.  And yeah I do think that right there could have been reason enough to make him feel the uneasiness he felt about the ending.

[Bergamot]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

*He kind of did this with John's death, too. His wild emotions were for himself, but with Sam he was stoic.

The same with Mary's death (her second death, I mean.) Dean was calm in front of people, but then he went out into the woods by himself, and broke down and cried.

[Bergamot]

47 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Maybe the entire episode are hallucinations/flashbacks from both as they lay dying and the final scene makes it clear and has them move on?

You mean like, shared hallucinations?

I can understand why people are wondering if these scenes are real, with how everything seems almost too perfect. Although when Jack brought back everyone at the end of "Inherit the Earth", that seemed pretty much like a candy-colored perfect world too, full of happy people and puppydogs and Girl Scout cookies.

The thing about these being their hallucinations while dying, though, is that I can't see what the point would be. For example, in "Death's Door", when we saw what was inside Bobby's mind as he was dying, we learned things we never knew about Bobby, and why Dean and Sam were so important to him as his adopted family. In these scenes from the finale, what would be learning about Dean and Sam? What insights are we (or the characters) gaining from them? The fact that Dean likes to make up funny portmanteau names for monsters, and that Sam has always wanted to throw a cream pie in Dean's face?

I'm just not seeing what would be the idea behind these scenes not being real, aside from Dabb wanting to say, "Haha, I fooled you, this was all a hallucination / preview of heaven / dream!" Which is fine as far as it goes, but I still would want there to be something beyond that -- some point to the story, in the end.

I don't know, I want to be able to enjoy this episode, but I am going to keep my expectations very low.

[AwesomO4000]

On 11/18/2020 at 1:04 PM, Aeryn13 said:

So if Sam doesn't hook up with Eileen, I'd question the life apart. Because Dean dying, then Sam continue hunting for some time and then also dying, cue reunion is just the epitome of pointless. If so, they could easily die together. 

I gave a reason for the separate deaths in one of my potential ending scenarios for the show - that would never happen - but I wouldn't mind seeing if we have to get a Memorex heaven ending...

As a tribute to Dean, Sam uses some of that extra time to do some of the things Dean wanted to do - like go to Amsterdam and Tijuana and revisit the Grand Canyon - but never got to do. So when they reunite in heaven - shared heaven and all - and after the big reunion, Dean asks where they should go next. Sam suggests "Amsterdam?" Dean says "We never went to Amsterdam, Sam. You nixed that plan, remember." Sam just smiles and says, "but I did. Wanna see?" Begin fade out with Dean saying "The coffee houses with no coffee and everything?" "Yeah, even those... but still no donkey show." "You went to Tijuana? Awesome... You know, I can take you to New Orleans. There's this Voodoo priestess there..." "Voodoo or Hoodoo?" "Really, that's the question you ask?..." fade to black.

Edited to Add: And after Sam and Dean are done site seeing, I like to imagine them hooking up with Ash to cause a little mischief in heaven.

At least that would be a reason for Sam staying around alive on earth for a while... Otherwise we'd just end up with the CBS Medium ending,*** and, man did I hate that. Pissed me off so much. Taints the entire show for me if I acknowledge it, so I tend to disregard that whole CBS final season and stick with the NBC ones in my head.

*** And if you don't know of this series ending, you're lucky. <Spoilers!>They basically retconned the show (since they'd already had flash forwards), so that one of the best things about the show - the realistic and interesting relationship between Allison and Joe and their family life - gets thrown out the window for a sappy Joe waited for Allison in heaven for 30-40 years reunion thing. Yeah, that's entirely worth the kids growing up without a father and Allison being alone for her final years. Not to mention the real life Joe DIDN'T DIE so killing him off on the show is kind of creepy.

Edited November 19, 2020 by AwesomO4000

[KayCordingly]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

The thing about these being their hallucinations while dying, though, is that I can't see what the point would be. For example, in "Death's Door", when we saw what was inside Bobby's mind as he was dying, we learned things we never knew about Bobby, and why Dean and Sam were so important to him as his adopted family. In these scenes from the finale, what would be learning about Dean and Sam? What insights are we (or the characters) gaining from them? The fact that Dean likes to make up funny portmanteau names for monsters, and that Sam has always wanted to throw a cream pie in Dean's face?

Ah, I think I have found the problem: you're looking at it from the perspective of GOOD writing. 😆

[Myrelle]

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/4S-43_0UWzA

Another sneak peek of the pie scene.

I've seen spec that this could be Sam hallcinating since Dean is dead and he can't cope.  It would explain why Dean says to keep living and honor the sacrifice when talking about Cas.

Plus Sam says he always wanted to do that.

I love the first sneak peek.

This one does nothing for me likely because I've just never found the pie in the face thing funny when anyone does it.

I did find Dean's LOVE! for all that pie Adorable, though. :-)

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Unfortunately, I think the ship has sailed on any investment in 'permanent' death on this show. Even with Chuck gone, and Gack promising to be hands-off, we know that if there were another season, or if there is a reboot down the road, 'death' will be undone. They've conditioned us to this. That's why I hope that it doesn't end that way.

This though???

I can't imagine not being affected by those scenes. Dean's 'death' is one of the most heartbreakingly real I've ever seen on tv. That grunt/gasp he makes and the death in his eyes will haunt me forever. Knowing he would be back somehow, some way, didn't diminish it at all (for me).

It was so well acted. Metatron's evil relish at sticking the blade in was too. Mark S was Brilliant in that episode as well.

[Bergamot]

7 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I did find Dean's LOVE! for all that pie Adorable, though. :-)

It's his destiny! 😊

[Binns]

I guess we don’t have anything to spec anymore BUT. If they really want to do a special or a movie sometime, they could always do a mystery set in heaven!

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Binns said:

I guess we don’t have anything to spec anymore BUT. If they really want to do a special or a movie sometime, they could always do a mystery set in heaven!

Or, since time passes differently in heaven (and Cas is rearranging things) I suppose (if they get bored), they could decide to come back to earth to hunt some more, still staying the same age as they were in heaven, though they're now in the future.  Or Cas could send them back to any particular time (angels can time travel, you know!) either as a reward or because they're driving everyone crazy since they're bored.

Of course, they could just use a "missing episode" MoW fitting somewhere else in the SPN timeframe (after all, we only saw 42 minutes a week for 20-23 weeks of the past 15 years.  That leaves an awful lot of blank time...)  They'd have to do something fairly recent, though, since they can't be too old if they're supposed to be the age they were at the time.  (Maybe they can redo last week's ep by *showing* everything that happened instead of just telling the audience about it after the fact.)😊

Edited November 20, 2020 by ahrtee
MOL and MoW aren't the same

[gonzosgirrl]

On 11/9/2020 at 8:20 PM, ILoveReading said:

ThT

 

So one (and maybe a half) of these things turned out to be accurate. Permanent death, and Dean riding in the Impala listening to rock music (though not driving off into the sunset).

[Myrelle]

I'm really curious about the exact "pitch" (🙄 ) that they were given when they were invited into the writer's room before the season started-and apparently the only time that ever happened according to Jensen in an interview I saw recently. 

My feeling is that they were likely at least told that Dean dies young and Sam dies old and they meet up in Heaven at the end.

But I'd like to know if they were told anything more than that. 

[PAForrest]

16 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I'm really curious about the exact "pitch" (🙄 ) that they were given when they were invited into the writer's room before the season started-and apparently the only time that ever happened according to Jensen in an interview I saw recently. 

My feeling is that they were likely at least told that Dean dies young and Sam dies old and they meet up in Heaven at the end.

But I'd like to know if they were told anything more than that. 

I honestly don't even believe they were "invited" to this pitch. I think the Js thought they'd have a chance to have some input - they literally talked about that after the announcement - and probably asked for the meeting. Since they were allowed no input at all - and that's really height of disrespect to the leads of a 15 year show - I have to assume Drabb used the opportunity to just tell them the broadstrokes of his not so grand finale.

There may have been some details, but would Drabb have told Jensen outright he was going to make his character look ridiculous in his death? Possibly. When Jensen says they were told take it or leave it, given the fact that Jared loved it and apparently didn't care that Jensen didn't, I suspect that line was directed solely at Jensen.

Would Jensen have been as upset as he was simply just to hear that Dean dies like days after it looked they won, regardless of how it happened? Yes, I really do, because it is a sucky ending for his character - finally free, except not you, Dean. Neener neener.

Edited November 22, 2020 by PAForrest

[Myrelle]

17 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

When Jensen says they were told take it or leave it, given the fact that Jared loved it and apparently didn't care that Jensen didn't, I suspect that line was directed solely at Jensen.

I suspect this also.

 

[Res]

I knew the minute he was allowed to eat pie he was a goner.

[Cindy McLennan]

On 11/22/2020 at 10:38 AM, PAForrest said:

I honestly don't even believe they were "invited" to this pitch. I think the Js thought they'd have a chance to have some input - they literally talked about that after the announcement - and probably asked for the meeting. Since they were allowed no input at all - and that's really height of disrespect to the leads of a 15 year show - I have to assume Drabb used the opportunity to just tell them the broadstrokes of his not so grand finale.

There may have been some details, but would Drabb have told Jensen outright he was going to make his character look ridiculous in his death? Possibly. When Jensen says they were told take it or leave it, given the fact that Jared loved it and apparently didn't care that Jensen didn't, I suspect that line was directed solely at Jensen.

Would Jensen have been as upset as he was simply just to hear that Dean dies like days after it looked they won, regardless of how it happened? Yes, I really do, because it is a sucky ending for his character - finally free, except not you, Dean. Neener neener.

I have repeatedly seen people say Jensen said they were told to "take it or leave it," but I have never seen Jensen say they were told to take it or leave it. Will someone please share the source for this?

[Casseiopeia]

11 minutes ago, Cindy McLennan said:

I have repeatedly seen people say Jensen said they were told to "take it or leave it," but I have never seen Jensen say they were told to take it or leave it. Will someone please share the source for this?

He said they were handed the script.  Dabb and Co. didn't say "take it or leave it" but they made it clear that the J's weren't there to offer any input. 

[gonzosgirrl]

14 minutes ago, Cindy McLennan said:

I have repeatedly seen people say Jensen said they were told to "take it or leave it," but I have never seen Jensen say they were told to take it or leave it. Will someone please share the source for this?

 

Just now, Casseiopeia said:

He said they were handed the script.  Dabb and Co. didn't say "take it or leave it" but they made it clear that the J's weren't there to offer any input. 

He did say exactly that in a recent interview. Whether he was using hyperbole for effect or not is up to the viewer. I will try to find it.

[Casseiopeia]

This one...

 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

This one...

 

Yup. @Cindy McLennan it is within the first 90 seconds.

Edited November 24, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Cindy McLennan]

Thank you, @gonzosgirrl and @Casseiopeia. I did see that interview. I guess I didn't take it as seriously (where those words are concerned) because he seemed to me to be trying to explain what he meant by it wasn't a brainstorming question.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Cindy McLennan said:

Thank you, @gonzosgirrl and @Casseiopeia. I did see that interview. I guess I didn't take it as seriously (where those words are concerned) because he seemed to me to be trying to explain what he meant by it wasn't a brainstorming question.

Nevertheless, he did say it. I have never believed that words just come from nowhere. To me, his laugh suggested that it was pretty much it, in a nutshell.

[Cindy McLennan]

I think I was so focused on the fact that the writers had never met with Jensen and Jared before the start of a new season, that I didn't even take notice of it. I get it in the early years, when they were just pretty WB/CW meat that turned out to be talented and committed to the show. I don't get it after Kripke left. I really don't get it in the past 5-7 years.
 

[Bobcatkitten]

Yeah he clearly pointed out they had never met with the writers before and that the decisions were already made. He laughed but it was pointed. 

[gonzosgirrl]

30 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Yeah he clearly pointed out they had never met with the writers before and that the decisions were already made. He laughed but it was pointed. 

And he's brought it up too many time, in too many ways, to believe that he laughed it off and realized he was wrong, not them. No freaking way.

[7kstar]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And he's brought it up too many time, in too many ways, to believe that he laughed it off and realized he was wrong, not them. No freaking way.

If Dabb had been so right, they would have had way more praise.  Jensen is smart in not picking a battle that can hurt his career.  But I do believe he will learn from this and use it to his advantage in his next choices. 

He also gave a warning to any Dean fan that the end might not be satisfying.  It wasn't.  We may hear about the truth on all of this years down the road like he did with Dark Angel but for now he can just say it took me a while to come to terms. 

Another thing is Kripke would have done a much darker ending...so perhaps that is why Jensen finally got behind it.  If you had done a typical horror ending...both brothers would have died?  Not sure what Kripke would have done.

[Binns]

54 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

. 

Another thing is Kripke would have done a much darker ending...so perhaps that is why Jensen finally got behind it.  If you had done a typical horror ending...both brothers would have died?  Not sure what Kripke would have done.

I mean, them dying together in a blaze of glory and a better Heaven scene would have gone down better for me. 

[tessathereaper]

6 hours ago, 7kstar said:

If Dabb had been so right, they would have had way more praise.  Jensen is smart in not picking a battle that can hurt his career.  But I do believe he will learn from this and use it to his advantage in his next choices. 

He also gave a warning to any Dean fan that the end might not be satisfying.  It wasn't.  We may hear about the truth on all of this years down the road like he did with Dark Angel but for now he can just say it took me a while to come to terms. 

Another thing is Kripke would have done a much darker ending...so perhaps that is why Jensen finally got behind it.  If you had done a typical horror ending...both brothers would have died?  Not sure what Kripke would have done.

Same honestly I think I would have been good with a horror scenario.  Both brothers dying?  OK, maybe they'll both get brought back.  One brother being turned into a monster and the other one dying?  OK so one brother gets de-monstered and the other one gets brought back. (there are a variety of ways to bring these about) Pretty much any other scenario is fairly easily undone if they WANT to.  No matter how dark they are. This one is harder because Dean's death was so much before Sam's and you basically need to undo Sam's "happy ending" and get rid of his son, Faux Dean.  Now mind you I had ZERO issues with the idea of getting rid of Tony Stark's kid in Endgame and I think they should have reverted everything back to 5 years earlier rather than leaving the mess of people coming back 5 years later just so Tony could keep his kid and I honestly I have ZERO issues getting rid of Sam's son and "happy life" but you know certain sections of fandom are going to complain about that and we'll get poor woobie wittle Sam and his sacrifice, so that would be a pain.  

So I think right now, as I've mentioned in the other thread,  I've settled on, when Sam gets knocked out in the fight, HE is the one who goes into the coma and has the coma dreams and the rest of the episode after he's knocked out is his coma dream.  No Faux Dean son, no "normal life".  He just wakes up how ever many years are believable later(if it's relatively soon and they haven't changed that much it can be a few months, if it's years later and they've changed a lot, it can 5 years or whatever)

[PAForrest]

12 hours ago, 7kstar said:

If Dabb had been so right, they would have had way more praise.  Jensen is smart in not picking a battle that can hurt his career.  But I do believe he will learn from this and use it to his advantage in his next choices. 

He also gave a warning to any Dean fan that the end might not be satisfying.  It wasn't.  We may hear about the truth on all of this years down the road like he did with Dark Angel but for now he can just say it took me a while to come to terms. 

Another thing is Kripke would have done a much darker ending...so perhaps that is why Jensen finally got behind it.  If you had done a typical horror ending...both brothers would have died?  Not sure what Kripke would have done.

Kripke would have pulled out what was the original ending for season five - both guys in the pit, or in this situation, both guys dead one way or the other. Five was changed because that's what Gamble wanted and she was going to be showrunner in six - only to flame out quickly because apparently she didn't know how to balance a checkbook, among other problems.

But would both guys dying at the same time change anything about this stupid ending? No, I think Jensen just gave up because he was the one guy against everyone else.

And as it turned out, the one guy is the guy they should have listened to all along. The one guy was right.

It's become very noticeable that Jensen and Danneel have gone radio silent since the finale. The only thing Jensen posted the next day was a picture of himself in the barn with the rebar on IG - though I don't even think he linked it to his twitter, like he usually does when he posts pictures on IG. And that post had its signature Jensen sarcasm to it.

But Jensen still has a relationship with the WB, so he's not going to come out and say anything derogatory. He's never really overt with his complaints - he tries to couch them in sarcasm and subtle shade, but he's not going to come right out and say, "looks like I was right!" I doubt he's happy with the end result or the backlash to the episode - it's not what he wanted for his legacy on this show. But at the same time, he's got to be feeling a bit of vindication too. Again, they should have listened to The One Guy.

There's starting to be chatter on twitter that the CW may have had their fingers in the pie since the love confession in 18, which we know from Jensen himself there were lines in that one that were cut. Alex apparently said somewhere in the last few days that he did film a scene for 20, and that scene was cut. People who live in Vancouver who saw the photos Misha was posting during the time everyone was quarantining confirm that was Vancouver. And there were enough hints from Misha himself that he was in Canada - like the whole mail complaint, etc. If Alex filmed a scene, it's easy enough to believe Misha did too - and they were all cut. Felicia confirmed she was supposed to be in 20, and then not.*

*Though apparently Felicia recently said she didn't want to quarantine for one scene. But that begs the question why Dabb et. al. wouldn't reach out to some of the many Canadian actors who have appeared over the years.

Everything about the last two episodes, but especially 20, just don't fit with whatever momentum they were going for in 15 - badly done and timed as it was and always is. But as much as I dislike Andrew Dabb, I never ever pegged him for a closet Wincester. He doesn't like the guys that much - he's made that really clear during his tenure. So what the hell was that?

No, I'm starting to think not all the blame for 20 lies at Dabb's feet after all. I think it's likely the CW really did interfere with what was supposed to be Dabb's original finale. If that turns out to be true, it would be interesting to hear what that finale entailed and what they insisted get cut. I still think Jensen hated Dean's death - I think this was his objection, and that wouldn't have changed, unfortunately.

The finale doesn't fit the narrative at the end of 15 years - it feels honestly more like a season two or three finale for a show about the Winchesters that didn't get another season pick-up after that. It feels very regressive.

Bottom line, because it feels like a stand-alone outside of the overall narrative, it probably would be easy enough to coma it away, or something along those lines. But I certainly have no interest whatsoever in any kind of reboot that doesn't involve the Real Dean Winchester.

Edited November 25, 2020 by PAForrest

[gonzosgirrl]

I find it hard to believe Misha was in quarantine in Vancouver and not any part of any of the shenanigans with Jensen, Jared, Rob and Jake. Not saying it's impossible, but it doesn't seem likely. And in the political zooms and show zooms that happened, but Jensen and Jared mentioned they were quarantined - I don't think Misha ever did. Sure, it could have been for secrecy's sake, for some big reveal in 19 or 20, but nothing felt that way to me. Jensen said Dean did respond to Cas and it was cut, but IMO he gave no indication that it was any kind of reciprocation from Dean. Why it was cut? Who knows - these are the same editors that gave us the marionette fight and Dean driving in the woods for twelve hours or so while Sam saved the day. Thing is now, Misha has shed so much gray on things that no matter what comes out later, barring the actual cut footage, people are going to believe whatever theories suit them.

[gonzosgirrl]

I... don't even know what to say about all that. I think Jensen was pretty clear in his comments when he talked about him and Misha watching a fan reaction video, in that things were cut, but I got no impression at all that there was any returned confession. I can see that he may have said 'I love you, too' but there's no doubt in my mind it would also have included a 'like a brother/family' or 'not in the same way'. No doubt at all. And I think if Jensen knew Dean was supposed to have reciprocated, indeed did reciprocate, he would say so.

[gonzosgirrl]

I wish they wouldn't include Dean/Jensen in the TheySilencedYou thing. It can only backlash on him (and probably nobody else) if/when the facts come out, because short of him saying unequivocally yes, Dean loved Castiel romantically, he absolutely cannot win. Sigh.

ETA: One thing is good - Jensen said he had someone record that scene on his phone, so even if it never sees the light of day, there is irrefutable 'proof' out there of what they said before the cameras.

Edited November 25, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[tessathereaper]

10 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

At this point he's probably better off not saying anything. If people want to believe he's under some sort of NDA with the CW they will give him a pass on silence and lay the heat at CWs feet, and he can just walk away

Seriously I hope he does that.  Jensen, don't feel the need to be honest or helpful for once and just let the CW take the heat.  He is OUT of this show, right now, he has a new job on a new network, he does NOT need to take the blame for them, one way or the other.  Take the win and say a non-commital thank you to everyone, and walk away.

[7kstar]

20 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Seriously I hope he does that.  Jensen, don't feel the need to be honest or helpful for once and just let the CW take the heat.  He is OUT of this show, right now, he has a new job on a new network, he does NOT need to take the blame for them, one way or the other.  Take the win and say a non-commital thank you to everyone, and walk away.

Jensen can be quiet.  I think him staying off twitter is a good sign.  He has already made it clear that he question the ending and the last interview even pointed out clearly that he had zero input into the outcome of the script.  His meeting with them in LA was that this is the ending.  If you don't like it too bad and he made that clear using some sarcasm and humor.  I don't think he has gotten in a twitter war like Jared nor does he seem to need to defend himself. 

He gets to play I'm just the actor and I gave it my best shot.

How it would have been now can be blamed on covid.  But a studio would only push back on something they felt was crossing the line and would harm them in the long run.  At this point I don't care.  The misery is over and I'll create my own ending and ignore theirs.  But I'll give it time.  I would have rather seen the iconic closing the trunk together or them both dying together than the lame ending they created.

The studio did a push back on the 300 ep so I think they have only done it a few times.  I wish we had a better showrunner but alas we were stuck with Dabb and that will hurt him in the long run.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, PinkChicken said:

Starting off with the positive: I don't have all the links on me but after the finale there were fundraisers set up (out of spite lol) in pretty much every main characters name, Castiel's was for some LGBT thing, Dean's was mental health, Sam's is something to do with education (I think Eileens post was just a direct link to a deafness org because they didn't allow setting up your own little named bucket) plus others, even miracle the dog had a link to one of the SPCAs... and between them they've raised around $70k last I checked. Misha liked one of the tweets to do with the Castiel one.

***

On top of what you have said about Misha's whereabouts:

Another one of the bigger existing theories based on the numbers on the tweeted quote of the day boards and fed off of the overall quality of the finale whether you are a shipper or not, is that 11 scenes are completely missing from episode 20 as a way to explain all the montages and weirdness (which could also be put down to COVID restraints) (I didn't go check the count myself). I do think though, that if your finale is so bad that that many people could honestly believe you're missing 11 scenes you've messed up somewhere whether its true or not.

There was also a rumour that Mark P & Alex filmed their last scene together with Misha, and apparently the timelines don't line up (they were all in the bunker together in 15.18 though right?), so I think people were hoping for an empty rescue and/or a Heaven scene. Also noone knows whether Uriel was supposed to film now or was just visiting set when he took that photo with Castiel.

(Disclaimer, I know absolutely no Spanish, also one of the accounts that spearheaded the hashtag is one I have seen vague-posting about set leaks and spoilers but never giving details other than to bait people)(I think the finale was a mess, but the jury is out on why).
The gist of the current explosion which built off of everything you were already getting at is: 

People were already suss of the confession scene because parts seem choppy, the tears aren't consistent, and there was a different clip of the sobbing that didn't make the ep used in the season trailer apparently.

Earlier today people were already sharing various versions of the confession scene trying to tease out the ADR Jensen had to do in Austin after they recorded the scene (like the extra sobbing & stuff) - for some unknown reason one of these clips had birds in the background (so like, probably a legit reason to need the ADR in the first place). They hilariously line up with the gaps between the vibrating sounds of the phone and stop when the credits start. 

THEN The latin american dub of 15.18 was shared on twitter and had Cass say "te amo" like (I Love love you) and Dean (verbally) replied "y yo a ti, Cass" (apparently "and I you, Cass"), over the part of the scene where we got "don't do this Cass" - and funnily enough the Spanish subtitles also still translated more or less to "don't do this Cass", not matching the words.
          - Note to the uninitiated: in Season 8 the latin american dub got the original "I love you" instead of "I need you" in the crypt scene as well; it really might just be a different marketing thing and within the freedom to move that they have with dubs.
The latin american dub has no bird sounds. 
After seeing the latin american dub people also started trying to convince themselves that even our version looks a bit off, and whether Dean could be saying something other than "don't do this Cass" (as in, asking if he actually said what was translated to spanish and maybe WE were the ones who dubbed it out), but tbh the only real definitive shape his lips make is over Cass so I think that's a lost cause. They also started picking apart the sequence in general like Jensen being super teary and then not, and Him falling towards the side Castiel seems to grab him from. 

Anyways: the point of that is that combined with the other already existing theories, there is a very large number of people who genuinely believe that the original version had a requited confession scene (which the actors have said was very ad libbed and so could have passed through the scripts to the cutting room floor) which was changed for us, but not picked up in time before it was sent around and the dubs were done. There's now #TheySilencedYou trending on twitter accusing the higher ups of CW interfering with the confession scene and the last couple of episodes. It got 30,000 in the first 5-6 hours by my count, and then doubled to over 70k tweets in the last 1-2 hours. 

Also Misha retweeted something totally random about "how to tell if your nuts are rancid" idk what that's about + everyone else's deafening silence (and who can really blame them either way), allows people to make of it what they will like you said. Oh and also they have dug up a post from August that Jensen liked about some cartoon having Disneys first bisexual character in it. They really flipped from calling him a h*mophobe to deciding he was in on a long-con quite quickly.

 

 

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I wish they wouldn't include Dean/Jensen in the TheySilencedYou thing. It can only backlash on him (and probably nobody else) if/when the facts come out, because short of him saying unequivocally yes, Dean loved Castiel romantically, he absolutely cannot win. Sigh.

ETA: One thing is good - Jensen said he had someone record that scene on his phone, so even if it never sees the light of day, there is irrefutable 'proof' out there of what they said before the cameras.

Twitter is insane right now.

It's all out war between the hellers and the bronlies/wincesties.

And MC and Dabb are feeding it. 

Totally best for Jensen to stay quiet IMO, too.

And I truly wonder if he might have seen something like this coming and that's the real reason that he had someone record the scene as it was being filmed on his own phone.

I'm really glad that he has it, too.

That's our boy. 💝 🔮

 

[ahrtee]

34 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

 

 

Twitter is insane right now.

It's all out war between the hellers and the bronlies/wincesties.

And MC and Dabb are feeding it. 

Totally best for Jensen to stay quiet IMO, too.

And I truly wonder if he might have seen something like this coming and that's the real reason that he had someone record the scene as it was being filmed on his own phone.

I'm really glad that he has it, too.

That's our boy. 💝 🔮

 

I hate, Hate, HATE  that this is what SPN is going to be remembered for; or that the ending (such as it is) has been tainted by fans fighting over what *they* wanted and not the boys themselves.  

I want Dean Winchester remembered for who he was and what he accomplished, not what others think he *should have* been, done or said.  

 

[gonzosgirrl]

And sadly, I think both of them (MC and Badd) are sitting back and loving it. Any attention is good attention if you're needy enough.