S03.E04: Contempt

[Tara Ariano]

Will refuses to reveal the source of stolen government documents even though he could go to jail for contempt. Meanwhile, Sloan and Mac search for a last-minute buyer for ACN when Charlie's had it with Lucas; and Hallie's new job puts a strain on her relationship with Jim.

[alexvillage]

With only 6 episodes, why is Sorkin (or why did him, since the show is done with filming) wasting time with Hallie?

[Primetimer]

Aaron Sorkin makes two nice, talented actors play out idiotic relationship fights no professionals would ever actually have, and it's not okay.

Read the story

[Eolivet]

I love old media. I have family and friends in old media. And I was on Hallie's side of that argument the entire time. Because I love old media, but I hate sanctimonious jerks more.

 

In other words: Shut. Up. Jim.

 

I know "Quick, marry me before I'm off to jail" is an old trope, but it just made me wonder why Sorkin was cribbing the season 2 finale of Downton Abbey.

 

Darn, I wanted Quo Vadimus 2: The Quo Vadimusing to be Toni Dodd. I suppose there are two more episodes left.

[madam magpie]

As soon as Mackenzie told Will that she'd been meeting with the source, I said, "You two better get married NOW." I hate weddings and love city hall, so I was all over that and wish it had happened in the first episode. I also consider spousal privilege to be one of the better reasons to get married. And I loved that Sloan was in charge of the cake.

I really enjoyed Mac turning the blackmail back on Clea Duvall and pointing out the fucked up ethics of people taking the fall for you while you sit on a high horse threatening them. I don't know why she didn't have a rain jacket, though. A little London Fog goes a long way. And she got from NY to Virginia REALLY fast.

I'm confused and maybe I misunderstood, but...Mac is British (born in America, but to a British family), right? And Will is supposed to be of Irish ancestry. But it's Mackenzie who wants a Catholic ceremony?? Is that what Will told the priest? If so, that makes no sense. Historically, British people are usually Protestant.

I love old media. I have family and friends in old media. And I was on Hallie's side of that argument the entire time. Because I love old media, but I hate sanctimonious jerks more.

I was completely on Hallie's side, and not just because Jim's an asshole, though he is. She called a snob a snob, and even if I'm one of those snobs (which I am), I believe she was totally right when she said basically, "who the hell are we to judge what's of value to someone else?" I'm also thrilled that she didn't forgive and forget. I really like Hallie and hope that was her going out in a blaze of glory. I wish, though, that Maggie had done something similar with the professor. She started off well, blasting him for telling her what she was thinking, but I'm afraid we were meant to take away that she ended up thinking he was right.

I'm so disappointed in that HR plotline. This is such a short season, and that was a waste of time.

Edited December 1, 2014 by madam magpie

[Tooch]

Goddamn, Sorkin knows how to write a jerkoff mansplainer. I liked Maggie's ethics prof boyfriend right up until he started telling her what she was REALLY thinking and then whining about it. They were dating what, a couple weeks? Where the hell did he get off talking to her like that?

And the thought of her moving on to the even bigger sanctimonious prick Jim? BLEH. I don't even like Hallie all that much but I was totally on her side and thought he acted like a first rate douchebag.

The rest of it was pretty good though. I like Pruitt for some reason, even though I can't stand when Charlie shouts at the top of his lungs (do major news executives seriously behave that way in the workplace?). And I liked the quickie wedding. I'm actually bummed out there's only two episodes left, why couldn't it have been this good in season 2?

[TimWil]

Fun fact-the FBI guy who cuffed Will wasn't the same background actor who got out of the car with Lazenthal. The exterior part of that scene was shot in NY and the City Hall interior scenes were shot in LA so they cast a look-alike to be the FBI guys who entered the building with Lazenthal. If you look closely you can spot the difference.

[Pallas]

I had a single tear in my eye from the first note of Ave Maria.  The quickie wedding was inevitable as soon as Mac mentioned her nine bridesmaids -- something work-related would of course put paid to that -- and it was lovely anyway.  And I laughed aloud at the blackout after Mac first spoke of Will's Irish stoicism, followed by his suggesting it might be "...Sexy?"

 

I'm confused and maybe I misunderstood, but...Mac is British (born in America, but to a British family), right? And Will is supposed to be of Irish ancestry. But it's Mackenzie who wants a Catholic ceremony?? Is that what Will told the priest? If so, that makes no sense. Historically, British people are usually Protestant.  Historically, British people are usually Protestant.

 

Mac's just a red-white-and-blue riddle wrapped within an Anglo-enigma, ain't she?  But there're at least enough English Catholics that British law still rules that the monarch cannot be married to any one of them.  And enough to make Brideshead worth revisiting.  

[madam magpie]

Mac's just a red-white-and-blue riddle wrapped within an Anglo-enigma, ain't she? But there're at least enough English Catholics that British law still rules that the monarch cannot be married to any one of them. And enough to make Brideshead worth revisiting.

Sure, sure. But I mean, when you tell me one person is British and the other Irish, and then tell me it's the British person who wants a Catholic ceremony, my reaction is...what?? I feel like there's a joke in there about the American couple that consists of an upper-crusty British person who's Catholic and a previously poor Irish guy who doesn't care much about religion getting married, but the joke never came. Or I missed it, which is definitely possible. Edited December 1, 2014 by madam magpie

[izabella]

I knew they'd send Will to jail.

 

The quickie wedding was charming, and I'm glad Hallie figured out that Jim was a sanctimonious douche all the time.  Now, how long will it take Maggie to realize she's dating Jim 2.0?

Is Mac really English?  Mackenzie McHale...Scottish?

Edited December 1, 2014 by izabella

[lucindabelle]

In what alternate world is an essay in first person somehow new media? Um, modern love? Ny times columns? First person little essays with a point are old media. They are freaking PRINT. I grew up reading t hem. I get the point he's making but at least have her be doing a video blog, I mean come on sorkin you just outed yourself as someone who doesn't even read freaking newspapers.

Eta: believe it or not there are irish Protestants and have been for hundreds of years including immigrants to America. Both shaw and Wilde were irish and Protestant.

Edited December 1, 2014 by lucindabelle

[thuganomics85]

I.... honestly don't remember finding Jim this unlikable in the past seasons.  But, he really is the biggest douchebag on the planet. Even if I was willing to look past him being a jerk about "page view bonuses" from last week, him acting like Hallie wasn't doing true journalism because she was writing an op-ed, just strikes me as the snobbish thing ever.  Since when is that something that is frowned upon? Again, maybe there is a kernel of truth to this, and, in real life, reporters do consider that to be "lower" then actual news reporting, but it's really not making meet like Jim on any level.  I'm not even a fan of Hallie and I can see why writing about your relationship issues can be hurtful to the other partner (even with the name changes), but I had no sympathy for Jim.  Really, I think even Maggie deserves better then him.

 

Speaking of which, they are totally going there again, now that Ethics Professor Jimmi Simpson thinks that the reason she is supporting Hallie is because she trying not to admit to herself she loves Jim, and Maggie didn't deny it.  Oh, goodie.

 

So, that whole HR thing was just pointless.  Basically, the guy was bored and just trolling Don and Sloan?  He doesn't intend to go after this at all?  What was the whole point of it, then?  Although, I did like how Don totally knows that, if it came down to it, Sloan will totally pick her job over him.  At least they know where their relationship stands.  Two episodes left, Sorkin!  You better not fuck Don/Sloan up!

 

So, Will is going to the slammer, so he and Mac go ahead and get a court chapel wedding, with the majority of the staff as the audience (noticed Sloan got to be the maid of honor.  Can't remember if she was always Mac's choice for that or not.)  Although, they didn't even get time to eat those delicious cakes Sloan got, before the asshole marshals hauled him off.

 

Pruitt seems to be the new boss now and wouldn't let them air the story, but Mac and Don got the files sent to someone at the Associated Press, so I'm sure that is going to come into play.

Edited December 1, 2014 by thuganomics85

[lucindabelle]

Actually I'm a reporter and nobody thinks a well written essay is not something admirable. At least I've never re into it and there are well respected awards for them in the njpa and spj and they are highly prized. The ny times columnists, many of whom write in a personal vein, make six figures. It was just dumb. And it made Jim an extreme douche.

[FormerMod-a1]

I liked most the episode, but I found the end to be over the top.  Not the quickie wedding, just the way they presented it.  Will is not going off to the firing squad, he's just going to contempt prison.  That is a big deal, but that ending Ave Maria montage presented as if he was off to be shot.

 

Hallie and Jim, I never understood why they got together in the first place.  I don't know how they stayed together so long. These past two episodes with all the arguing I wondered why they weren't broken up yet.  I hope they stay broken up for good, their whole relationship plot has been boring at best and annoying most the time.  Why is she there at all?  Why were we tortured with them this long?  I didn't like either of them in this latest argument.  Please stop with this plot!

[Kris117]

This episode was awful. Awful, awful, awful. In fact, this might be the worst episode of anything Sorkin has ever written, and I'm including the episode of Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip with the instant classic line, "But your little brother is standing in the middle of Afghanistan!"

 

The characters of Hallie and Pruitt are so obvious and exaggerated that they might as well be twirling a fake mustache and cackling in each scene, like an old-fashioned melodrama. Instead of being actual characters, they're two-dimensional strawmen representing the evils of New Media. You could use them as targets for a carnival shooting gallery. Jim was a jerk all the way through, but the Penthouse line was cruel even for Jim. And seriously, a Penthouse letter? I can't remember how long ago it was that I last heard that used as a reference. Dumb. 

 

In other awfulness, apparently Maggie is now almost worthy of being in a relationship with Jim, now that she's had a breakdown and been out on the road and stood up in front of a camera and overheard a phone conversation, and had her true feelings revealed to her. Ugh. I knew the McPoyle part of the law professor would show up eventually. That mansplaining scene made me cringe. 

 

I also cringed at the conversation between Mac and Don, where Don mansplained that all the trouble Will was in was because he was trying to impress Mac. Yeah, Will "I never met a situation where I couldn't find a way to be contrary and annoying" McAvoy is all of a sudden living his life solely to impress Mac. 

 

I did like the scenes with Sloan and Charlie. They were fun to watch, even if their efforts came to naught. I even thought the HR guy jerking around Sloan and Don was funny, despite that whole plotline being inane.

[Traveller519]

All of Sorkin's winking and nodding at his audience with the series wrapping up is taking away from was an actually very interesting original story with the documents.

 

Maggie's quip about monologues on the train: "See guys, I know, I write a lot of monologues, I know this isn't how people really talk."

The HR story-line that ultimately went nowhere: "See guys, I know I hook my characters up a lot in my workplace setting stories."

Jim's self-righteous, holier-than-thou, Olberman-esque attitude towards Hallie: "See everyone, I've learned how bad my downgrading alternative media has made me appear." 

 

I can't wait for Jenna to visit Will in jail to tell him she's applied for and accepted a job at the BBC based on revised long-form essays she'd written and never let anyone read, and that she did so because his support of her let her be her very best. "See I know that women can achieve things of their own merits, and roles can be reversed." 

 

That wedding made me irrationally angry. Not only was it as cliche as TV tropes go, it was just as conceited as the planned wedding was going to be. These Juliard students, and priest all have the time and capability to make our rushed nuptials a semi-event.

 

Enough complaining, though. The central plots I did find captivating. The scenes with the Judge were fantastic, and I think fairly presented both sides of the issue. And MacKenzie calling out Clea Duvall in the rain like that was bad-ass, as was the decision to pass along the story. Getting the writer out of the country was a tangible obstacle amid all the ethical issues, and Business Sloan is one of my favorite parts of the series. I would have bought the company on her sales pitch. And I never would have guessed I could find Reese so human. Damn I felt for him.

[SFoster21]

Wasn't all the Internet bashing ironic considering that Charlie and Sloan were relying on the "new technology" for info on the buyout?

[romantic idiot]

Actually I'm a reporter and nobody thinks a well written essay is not something admirable. At least I've never re into it and there are well respected awards for them in the njpa and spj and they are highly prized. The ny times columnists, many of whom write in a personal vein, make six figures. It was just dumb. And it made Jim an extreme douche.

 

I'm genuinely curious - do NY Times journalists also write about fights with their boyfriends as subject matter for their articles? (I don't read them much). And with how often she writes impulsively, I'm not sure I'd trust her with a professional pen. 

 

Now, I'll confess I don't know where Sorkin is going with this. Hallie has better arguments but Jim's supposed to be one of the moral guys. And Sorkin himself does very often what Hallie is being vilified for (in the text, not out here). Getting back at girlfriends and the internets through an artistic retelling. So is this his mea culpa? What the hell is this story about? And for?

 

Also, it didn't occur to Sloan to just call Charlie instead of following them up to the boardroom? And the security staff at the floor reception?

 

At least the getting rocks thrown at them phase is hopefully done. 

[tilly]

In an episode full of Hallie and Jim's terrible pairing (how has it taken you this long to break up?), I found Sloan saying "I'm sorry, bubba" to Don really cute. 

[terrymct]

I'm confused and maybe I misunderstood, but...Mac is British (born in America, but to a British family), right? And Will is supposed to be of Irish ancestry. But it's Mackenzie who wants a Catholic ceremony?? Is that what Will told the priest? If so, that makes no sense. Historically, British people are usually Protestant.

 

There are roughly 4.2 million Roman Catholics in England and Wales.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_England_and_Wales

 

About 5.7 in the UK overall.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

Henry VIII, William of Orange, and Cromwell didn't get them all.

[alexvillage]

 

I also consider spousal privilege to be one of the better reasons to get married.

There are exceptions to the spousal privilege. I don't think they fit here or that there is enough time to use them. But they exist.

 

 

Mac is British (born in America, but to a British family), right?

She is American , probably dual citizenship. But Sorkin does not care much about the "usual". In the West Wing he made the President a NH Catholic descendant of the Pilgrims, or something. 

 

 

That is a big deal, but that ending Ave Maria montage presented as if he was off to be shot.

This is a Sorkin thing. Music, beautiful music to enhance the moment. Maybe over the top but it was really beautiful

 

I think Hallie is still there because she is Meryl's daughter. Too much time on her. I missed Elliot

Edited December 1, 2014 by alexvillage

[terrymct]

My main thought at the end of this episode was that Dumb and Dumber 2 is a better career move for Jeff Daniels than this show.

 

Everybody yells.  All the time.  It's like they're all psychotic.   The relationships don't make sense.   The plot lines aren't well thought out.

 

Bad all around.  Sorkin should go off to a monastery or something for months of deep introspection after writing this piece of ca-ca.

[HollaMcDollar]

There are exceptions to the spousal privilege. I don't think they fit here or that there is enough time to use them. But they exist.

One notable exception to spousal privilege is conversations that occurred before you were married- in this case, the conversation that Mac also knows the identity of the source.

[lovinbob]

I'm genuinely curious - do NY Times journalists also write about fights with their boyfriends as subject matter for their articles? (I don't read them much). And with how often she writes impulsively, I'm not sure I'd trust her with a professional pen. 

This is what made me most insane. It was bad enough that last week, she impulsively tweeted an extremely opinionated, politically charged comment from an account she's not in charge of. Now she impulsively posts an angry letter the fight she's having with her boyfriend? For a site she's been employed for for like a week? NO ONE would do that. Plus, how fast did it happen? Is there no review process? I just don't buy it.

 

If I cared at all about Mackenzie and Will I might have enjoyed the wedding, but I don't. Also, I don't buy Jim and Don ring-shopping together.

[alexvillage]

 

I'm genuinely curious - do NY Times journalists also write about fights with their boyfriends as subject matter for their articles? (I don't read them much). And with how often she writes impulsively, I'm not sure I'd trust her with a professional pen.

I don't like Hallie, and I don't see why she needs to take up air time. 

But

the NY Times journalists, even though they do not write about their personal lives, they can barely be called "journalists" anymore. I lost count of how many times I wrote to the public editor complaining about their lack of ethics and lack of plain knowledge. Everything is about how many comments they will get and how much buzz their pieces are going to generate. And the language they use is not old journalism either.

The columnists, on the other hand, do tell us about their personal lives, once in a while, but nothing like what Hallie wrote. It is more on their experiences related to things that are happening in the world (Charles Blow has written about his experience as a black man, as a bisexual black man and about how the race conversation affects his son). The Times has a online only section that is reserved for personal stories. I don't think they are journalists or that they are Times' employees though.

[madam magpie]

One notable exception to spousal privilege is conversations that occurred before you were married- in this case, the conversation that Mac also knows the identity of the source.

I don't think that's entirely the point, actually. What Will is trying to do is keep the info that Mac is just as complicit as he is under wraps. It can only come out now if she tells because the larger assumption will be that if they've discussed it, it'll be privileged. The judge or opposing attorney would have to ask very specific questions to get to the conversation before they were married. Plus, now they can discuss it openly with each other. It seemed like her initial plan was to keep it from him, but she cracked. They can also now discuss his case and the story.

You guys, I'm not confused about how many Catholics live in the UK or that there are any. I'm saying it's an odd story choice with no joke or explanation. The joke has always been that the American-born Brit is the most patriotic. That's funny and ironic. But the Catholic ceremony thing has no purpose. Why even mention it? The priest was unimportant. The religion was unimportant. All that mattered for the plot was that Will and Mac get married. But it's a minor detail. I wondered if I'd missed something; clearly I didn't.

I loved "I'm sorry, bubba" too. That was so charming.

Edited December 1, 2014 by madam magpie

[alexvillage]

 

But the Catholic ceremony thing has no purpose. Why even mention it? The priest was unimportant. The religion was unimportant. All that mattered for the plot was that Will and Mac get married. But it's a minor detail.

It matters to Sorkin. It is Sorkinism. An excuse to play Ave Maria, whatever it went through his mind when he wrote the episode. He has done that before, he will do it again.

[madam magpie]

It matters to Sorkin. It is Sorkinism. An excuse to play Ave Maria, whatever it went through his mind when he wrote the episode. He has done that before, he will do it again.

That's fine. I thought Ave Maria was lovely, and I liked the idea of Charlie trolling Juilliard for some kids to play at the wedding. I wonder if those were real students.

Edited December 1, 2014 by madam magpie

[alexvillage]

Probably not. The chapel scenes were probably shot in CA, So local musicians would be easier/cheaper

[CaughtOnTape]

I don't know if I'd consider the HR storyline a waste of time.  To watch Don running around like he was behind enemy lines was hilarious.  So maybe that's why Sorkin did it....for some much needed hilarity during an otherwise boring and predictable episode.

 

And while I may not like Jim for his snobishness, I don't like Hallie either.  Jim had a point about her impulsiveness and not trusting her with really confidential information which has to weigh on a relationship.  What she basically proved to him was that she can never be trusted for him to vent to when he gets home.  Whether or not he should isn't the point, it's the fact that he knows he can't because she never stops to think before she does something is sad enough in itself.  And to use the excuse "I did it for my job...you should understand that" was really kind of bullshit IMO.

Edited December 1, 2014 by CaughtOnTape

[terrymct]

I don't know if I'd consider the HR storyline a waste of time.  To watch Don running around like he was behind enemy lines was hilarious.  So maybe that's why Sorkin did it....for some much needed hilarity during an otherwise boring and predictable episode.

 

The problem with it, for me, was the ending.  The HR guy told them he was just screwing with them.  How many HR people do you know that do crap like that?

[madam magpie]

CaughtOnTape: You're right. Don's reactions were fun; so were Sloan's reactions to him. I think I've been burned too many times by the crap that is Nashville, which drops in new and completely useless characters constantly to fill up pointless plots that also often are dropped. This wasn't bad, really, and it provided comic relief and some good lines.

 

I also forgot to mention how much I loved Sloan's description of her "Working Girl" experience. That was a lot of fun.

[DrivingSideways]

I am so glad that the haters have come out... I think this season is just as horribly written and cheesy as the previous two, but the comments have seemed largely positive.

 

I did enjoy Sloane's Working Girl references though.  Sloane is the only part of the show that doesn't make me want to put my head through a wall.

[SFoster21]

I am so glad that the haters have come out... I think this season is just as horribly written and cheesy as the previous two, but the comments have seemed largely positive.

I did enjoy Sloane's Working Girl references though. Sloane is the only part of the show that doesn't make me want to put my head through a wall.

Me too.

[iMonrey]

 

But there're at least enough English Catholics that British law still rules that the monarch cannot be married to any one of them.

 

Not anymore. They changed the rules on that, right before Kate Middleton gave birth.

[Inquisitionist]

It matters to Sorkin. It is Sorkinism. An excuse to play Ave Maria, whatever it went through his mind when he wrote the episode. He has done that before, he will do it again.

Because the Roman Catholic Church has a copyright on Ave Maria?  Non-RCC services can't use it?

 

In my experience, the RCC is not very cooperative about doing things on YOUR schedule rather than theirs.  Had Mackenzie and Will completed all their pre-Cana obligations?  ::snerk::

[Quilt Fairy]

I.... honestly don't remember finding Jim this unlikable in the past seasons.  But, he really is the biggest douchebag on the planet.

I realized an episode or so ago that I now feel about Jim the way I felt about Don in the very first episode - and vice versa. But I now like Don way more than I ever liked Jim.

 

"What, the phones don't work there at night?!"  I'm not a Sorkin expert; did he knowingly or unknowingly crib a line (one of my favorites) verbatim from Game Change?

[lovinbob]

"What, the phones don't work there at night?!"  I'm not a Sorkin expert; did he knowingly or unknowingly crib a line (one of my favorites) verbatim from Game Change?

Thank you! I was wracking my brain trying to remember where I'd heard that line  before!

[CaughtOnTape]

The problem with it, for me, was the ending.  The HR guy told them he was just screwing with them.  How many HR people do you know that do crap like that?

 

Odd think to stick on.  But ok.

 

I thought his explanation made sense.  Everyone expects HR people to play it straight laced and he just wanted to screw with some people.  They kind of deserved it.  They were screwing with him too.  

Edited December 1, 2014 by CaughtOnTape

[hendersonrocks]

The things I was thinking during the Jim-Hallie debacle were 1) these two people should not be together, 2) Jim is obviously looking for things to hate on/pick fights over/etc. as his lazy ass way to get out of it without having to acknowledge his wove twue wove is Maggie, 3) the inevitable end scene where Jim & Maggie get together is going to make me hurl.

 

I'm still stunned that the two people I hated most in season 1, Sloan and Don, are now my favorite by a power of ten.

 

 

[alexvillage]

 

Because the Roman Catholic Church has a copyright on Ave Maria?  Non-RCC services can't use it?

I should have worded it better. I don't know why CATHOLIC. I was referring to a wedding ceremony. I have no idea if non-catholics play/like Ave Maria. I am an atheist and hate wedding ceremonies. 

[Traveller519]

The worst part of Jim's character is he brings out the worst in each of his partners as well.

 

Lisa became incredibly insecure and nigh intolerable around him, because he just went along with being into her while pining for Maggie.

Maggie screwed up by acting outside her comfort zone trying to live up to what she perceived to be his standards.

Hallie has become reactionary and impulsive living on the edge of his next not-so-subtle dig.

[lucindabelle]

May I paint out that we don't KNOW what Hallie wrote? I'm assuming it was a well written essay with a point. MY point is that every single essay in the series "modern love" is about a relationship. THIS IS NOT NEW MEDIA. There are personal essays in every print newspaper and magazine since he dawn of time. It is not new.and the penthouse reference would only make sense if him were about 60, like Sorkin.

 

  ....given that she's an idiot who tweeted a ridiculous comment and put her colleagues on the scent of scandal about her boyfriends job, the essay may have been pure confessional...but we don't know. (and even if it was, this too is not New Media, not a reality show, anymore than Jim's reference to "dear Penthouse" is).

 

The story shed pitched about taking the pill could have become a fascinating piece about women's rights. We just don't know. And it wasn't a letter, it was an essay. It may have begun with the story of her fight and turned into something quite different.

Fwiw, too, Feminist discourse prides the insertion of self into writing (hunter S. Thompson and New Journalism existed in the '60s) so this kind of thing exists in quite serious academic writing too. Not that Sorkin knows that, since he apparently doesn't even read newspapers, but whatever.

 

As for Mac being Catholic... why not? The "default" need not be WASP with being Catholic or Jewish or disabled or whatever only to make a point. She is because she is. It works for me.

[madam magpie]

As for Mac being Catholic... why not? The "default" need not be WASP with being Catholic or Jewish or disabled or whatever only to make a point. She is because she is. It works for me.

She CAN be anything Aaron Sorkin wants her to be, but until now, she's been presented as an American-born, British-raised, fairly well-to-do woman. To toss in an offhand reference that brings up a question about that characterization with no explanation is a weird storytelling choice. There are centuries of history behind religion in Britain, and much of it is Catholic vs. Protestant. Her last name certainly sounds Irish, which could lend itself to Catholic, but I don't remember anyone ever saying her family was Irish (though maybe I missed it). Also, since she clearly has no issues with sex outside of marriage, she can only be but so devout a Catholic. It's an odd detail to drop into a story that has nothing to do with religion, and it brings up more questions than it answers. It also seems weird because if we'd known Mac was Catholic all along, all the confusion about her sudden interest in a big wedding would have been explained; Catholics are notorious for big weddings. I don't care what religion she actually is or isn't, but from a storytelling perspective, it's a bizarre thing to come up with at the eleventh hour. It was completely unnecessary for the story...so far. Maybe it'll come up in the last two episodes, but I'm skeptical of that. Honestly, I almost feel like Sorkin somehow forgot that Maggie is actually the one who's religious and Mac has never been presented as such, but what do I know?

I also only care but so much because I really like the wedding they came up with, and that ceremony played into the larger point.

Edited December 1, 2014 by madam magpie

[alexvillage]

Did anyone watched the "inside the episode" with Sorkin?

Music, as I suspected, was a big drive for the wedding scene. He wanted Ave Maria, he tracked down someone to sing it.

He says that Mac is a devout Catholic, does not explain this (not that he has to) and says that he wanted a different wedding story, a contrast between what was being planned and what really happened. 

Apparently the idea of spousal privilege is not part of the story (or he does not want to say)

[Inquisitionist]

Music, as I suspected, was a big drive for the wedding scene. He wanted Ave Maria, he tracked down someone to sing it.

He says that Mac is a devout Catholic, does not explain this (not that he has to)

 

This fits with Sorkin wanting a Bar Mitzvah so that he could sing and be theatrical, despite having zero religious training.  I think he's kinda in love with certain religious trappings (music, art, ritual) without having a clue as to what being "devout" actually means.

 

“I’m Jewish but have never had any religious training. I never went to Hebrew school. But in seventh grade, nearly every Saturday I was going to a friend’s Bar Mitzvah or Bat Mitzvah—this was right around the time I was developing my love of theater—and I would go to these Bar Mitzvahs and Bat Mitzvahs and think, ‘Damn, I really missed out. These are great. You get to go up there and you’re wearing a costume and there’s theatrics and there’s singing and there’s an audience; I wish I had done this.’ Finally about six weeks before my 13th birthday—in my family the boys would just have a really nice party before their 13th birthday—I opened a local phonebook and called the local rabbi and said, ‘Rabbi I’m turning 13 in six weeks. I’d like you to teach me the Torah.’ And he said, ‘You know kid, I can’t teach you the Torah in six weeks. It takes years.’ And I said, ‘No, no, no that’s okay. I don’t need to really learn it. If you just say it into a tape recorder I can learn it phonetically. He pointed out that was hardly the reason to get Bar Mitzvahed…’”

Edited December 1, 2014 by Inquisitionist

[lucindabelle]

Actually, Mac is Scottish, not Irish. Mc is Irish. They both mean "son." At best, she could be Anglo-Irish with a mac surname, and if she were, she'd be likely to be Protestant.

 

But for all we know her mother is Irish and got to choose religion in the household.

 

There are many many people in the world with last names that you would think had to be this or that religion and who practice differently.

 

As for Sorkin and his just wanting the trappings... this is not even really original didn't they have such a plot on "Blackish?" But it doesn't really bother me as music is at the heart and soul of Judaism (I agree with Itzhak Perlman on this) and faith is not particularly important in Judaism, which is very different from Christianity. (action matters). Really, Judaism and Christianity share almost no theology at all. There's a famous Jewish joke in which someone wonders if Shabbos would be Shabbos if you didn't have the candlesticks, the challah, the meal, the singing, the rest. So to test it they did all those things on a Wednesday. It felt like Shabbos! Because "it knocked on the door of Heaven and made Shabbos come down."

 

So... trappings matter in Judaism, as they do in Catholicism. Going through the motions isn't everything, but it is something.

 

Again, I don't hold with the idea that the default is WASP and that anything else is strange. I just don't agree. those are a lot of generalizations about Catholics. Some are devout, some aren't. Some are Catholic to the point that they want a Catholic wedding and that's it. It's like every religion. there are also many Catholics who use birth control who still consider themselves Catholic, as well as Jews who work on shabbos and eat pork and so on.

 

Also... religion coming up JUST in time for the wedding is not bizarre. Lots of people don't care about religion most of the time but suddenly when it comes to a wedding or a funeral find that they do. I've seen this many times in life and it rings true to me.

Edited December 1, 2014 by lucindabelle

[paramitch]

"The Newsroom" has been hit or miss for me through the seasons but I'm enjoying this one. Honestly sometimes, the sheer IQ and vocabulary levels of the characters' dialogues have me semi-weepy on occasion -- when Sorkin's good, he's really good. It's been a pleasure to see these characters return. I don't even mind Charlie yelling at people anymore (in his adorable way).

 

I liked most the episode, but I found the end to be over the top.  Not the quickie wedding, just the way they presented it.  Will is not going off to the firing squad, he's just going to contempt prison.  That is a big deal, but that ending Ave Maria montage presented as if he was off to be shot.

 

I thought it was pretty apropos. Will is a celebrity and a millionaire yet nevertheless he is choosing to go to prison indefinitely -- and as was made clear, to an actual prison, where he will be strip-searched, treated like a criminal, put into dual confinement with an unknown criminal element, and then asked to brave the daily rigors, humiliations, deprivations, and dangers of prison life. And nobody is saying it out loud, but he will be in constant physical danger, and they've all got to be at least somewhat petrified on his behalf. I liked that it was treated heavily -- it should be.

 

Meanwhile: I don't get the "Sorkinism" descriptions for the "Ave Maria" close. I mean, it's certainly a movie mainstay, but not from Sorkin (see also 28 Days Later, Alive, Muriel's Wedding, Prizzi's Honor, Needful Things, The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly, Clockwork Orange, etc.) Yet I've never seen Sorkin actually resort to this and I've watched all his shows. It certainly doesn't seem to be his go-to move on a scene (cue classical musical montage, etc.). So for me this scene is just not something he's known for or something he tends to resort to. At least anymore than anyone else. (I do give Sorkin points for going to a gentler, less formal rendition of the piece -- it was almost casual and folksy yet still pure and lovely. I thought it was a good choice.)

 

Meanwhile, I totally laughed at Toofer the HR guy playing with Don and Sloane, who richly, richly deserved to be fucked with. It was actually kind of sweet -- I loved his departure as he waved, "I'm actually a huge fan, put the [Tumblr?] photos back up, OK?!" (And their machinations to avoid him were adorable, especially the contrast of Don's constant Roadrunner sweaty freaked-out-ness in opposition to Sloane's sexy, cool "I could not care less" bemused responses).

 

Onward. I like the turnabout that Mac is happy to have a frantic instant-wedding (it reminded me of what I do like about her), although I've never seen her frantic work-self as an antithesis to her home-self (that we rarely see). To me this suited her anyway and saved her from overthinking the wedding, which is exactly what she would've done otherwise. I also loved it as a direct antidote to her somewhat misogynistic Twitter fumble in Season 1 -- a few clicks of her phone and her world was invited to her wedding. No big thing.

 

Meanwhile, I felt bad for Grace Gummer for her scenes with Jim. I liked them together last season so much, so it's a shame the decks are being cleared for the Jim + Maggie ship to go full steam ahead. I like Maggie. I just don't like Jim. But -- weirdly -- I actually did like him with Hallie. They felt like equals in a way the show has never sold me on when it comes to Jim and Maggie. But I will admit to shamefully thinking the life with an ethics professor just wouldn't be fun, even if I've always loved that actor. You just know eventually you'll let them down.

 

And lastly: superficial alert! -- I just have to say this at least somewhere: I hate this show's hair and makeup choices. There. I never say this stuff. I recognize the work that goes into that work. And yet: I hate the work on this show with only one exception (see farther down). And I very much do not like what they do to Mac (or Sloan this season), and hate what they've done to darling Allison Pill.

 

See, I love Allison Pill, and have ever since "Miracle Worker" onstage in NYC and like three other things, not to mention her gorgeous work in HBO's "In Treatment." But I cannot stand what the costume and makeup department do to her on this show. She is a beautiful girl, but from the horrible haircolor and styling to the makeup, this show has systematically stripped away everything that made her physically distinctive and turned her into a whiny round-faced blank doll with awful hair. But hopefully, she'll go on to bigger and better things. And with better makeup people. (Gah).

 

And I don't mind that Mac is sometimes dressed down, for instance, or that she has bad hair (or that Maggie's hair is always the absolute worst in human history). I can still buy that Mac would want designer dresses for events and weddings elsewhere and be a fervent Vogue reader. It's cute. But I don't think the show's makeup/hair ever quite pulls off what they're seeking though. Everyone looks sweaty and lank to me. The only exception for me -- and it has been strikingly evident this season -- is that I've never seen Clea DuVall look more beautiful than she has here the past few episodes (discounting the rainy scene here, when she and poor Mac were just getting dumped on by truckloads of water). I adore her, so it was nice to see someone figure out how gorgeous she can be. But she's the one odd exception. Otherwise, I think the show's makeup and hair lets the actresses down or at least breaks the fourth wall on occasion. I've never been so distracted by it as I am here.

 

Meanwhile, I liked the episode and continue to enjoy the season. I'm happy enough that I'm really sad the season is truncated -- it feels like stopping the song just when the groove is getting good.

Edited December 2, 2014 by paramitch

[madam magpie]

Lucindabelle: Mac's last name is McHale. That is Mc. That said, when you say "for all we know, her mother could be..." I say, exactly. We have no idea. A writer makes a mistake when he asks his audience to make up details to explain his story. The facts shouldn't be in dispute.

I've never called Mac a WASP. Not sure where that's coming from. If you'd asked me before last night's episode, I'd have guessed she wasn't religious at all based on her behavior during the show.

Inquisionist: I think having no idea what devout means makes the most sense, especially if Sorkin called her a devout Catholic in the episode review. Because seriously, she's sleeping with her fiancée. No she's not.

Edited December 2, 2014 by madam magpie

[LotusFlower]

Meanwhile: I don't get the "Sorkinism" descriptions for the "Ave Maria" close like they're some huge cliche. I mean, it's certainly a movie mainstay, but not from Sorkin (see also 28 Days Later, Alive, Muriel's Wedding, Prizzi's Honor, Needful Things, The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly, Clockwork Orange, etc.) Yet I've never seen Sorkin actually resort to this and I've watched all his shows. It certainly doesn't seem to be his go-to move on a scene (cue classical musical montage, etc.). So for me this scene is just not something he's known for or something he tends to resort to.

Doesn't Dire Straits in Two Cathedrals count? :). (My fave).