S04.E09: The Devil You Know

[tpel]

I know Dominic's number 2 will betray him in the future but he should really have gone out with Scarface, that would've made Scarface's demise worth it. But I suspect his ability to survive will give Hersh a run for his money.

 

 

In the short term, having taken out Dominic's number 2 would seem like more of a win for team Elias. But, in the long run, having planted the seeds of betrayal could be way more valuable.

 

If Dominic's number does come up, I wonder if our guys will just let it go. Of course, Dominic might bring the fight to them before that. He seems to believe he can out-think the guy represented by the question mark card denoting Reece's boss. You may be smart, Dominic, but you're not Harold smart! Of course, Dominic doesn't know that all he needs to do to take down Reese and company is to expose them to Samaritan. 

[stealinghome]

Of course, Dominic doesn't know that all he needs to do to take down Reese and company is to expose them to Samaritan.

Yeah, you know, when you said that, it occurred to me that Dominic has one little piece of information that, if revealed to Samaritan/Martine, could bring Team Machine crashing down: he knows that Detective John Riley and "Mystery Woman" (aka Shaw) are in cahoots.

 

I kind of want to see Martine and Dominic in a scene together. The utter lack of facial expressions might be hilarious.

[Camera One]

Awww... so sad that they killed off Anthony.  It's nice to have familiar faces around on a show, but sooner or later, they all become cannon fodder.

 

So what was Elias' exit strategy there if Reese hadn't been there to save him?  Why didn't Elias just tell Reese he had a bomb in the vault?  They could have moved a bit faster once they got to that building rather than leave us in "suspense" except it was pretty obvious that safe was a trap anyway.  

 

So now Greer realizes he needs to have more literal eyes and ears looking for Team Finch?  No duh.  I still think it's dumb that Samaritan can do all these ostentatious attacks out in public with no ramifications.  Wouldn't law enforcement be looking for that blonde woman?  You'd think someone would be assigned to watch Lionel since he suspiciously stopped the truck, and Team Samaritan would find Reese by the next episode.

[Dowel Jones]

Also thought Elias said something else in Latin right near the end but again, I could be mistaken.

 

Ah, the benefits of a School for Boys education...

 

Wouldn't Samaritan also key in on Elias and Dominic, since it uses the same algorithms as the Machine?  Elias, at least, seems to spend an awful lot of time out in the open and visible to all the cameras.

[johntfs]

 

I hope that Shaw shoots Mini's face off; but in reality, he belongs to Enrico.  Who was absolutely hearbreaking letting his band of brother's brother go.  Very moved.

 

Shaw can shoot Dominic's face off and Elias can just watch...

 

 

We may have a new tagline, courtesy of tpel: There's smart, and then there's Harold smart!

 

If we're changing the tagline, I'd prefer "Invictus Maneo"

Edited November 27, 2014 by johntfs

[DeLurker]

The combination was apparently a date (10/30/74).  Are we supposed to know it's significance?

Can't link right now but David Valcin was tweeting during show and indicated it was the date of Ali (Upstart) vs. Foreman who was undefeated Heavyweight so young vs. old lion parallel.

[ABay]

I assumed 103074 was a birthday, too, but couldn't think of anyone significant to Elias who would be 40--that's too old to be his child, too young to be his mother, and his backstory doesn't indicate a sibling. But the Rumble in the Jungle makes metaphorical sense. I guess. Does this mean Dominic will have sons and name all of them Dominic and start shilling a grill?

 

 

 

Wouldn't Samaritan also key in on Elias and Dominic, since it uses the same algorithms as the Machine?  Elias, at least, seems to spend an awful lot of time out in the open and visible to all the cameras.

Samaritan is looking for terrorist threats and whoever Greer wants found. The Machine also categorized Elias as Irrelevant, that's why it sent his number to Finch the first time and not the government.

Edited November 27, 2014 by ABay

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Oh, Scarface, I will miss you! Mr. EB was so disappointed that the only competent henchman is gone.

 

I really liked seeing the difference between the old guard and the new guard. I know it sounds cliche but in so many cases you see that the old guard would rather die than be disloyal while the new guard will turn on anyone if it will help them in the slightest. Having Marlo as Dominic's number two just makes it that more amusing since they dealt with the loyalty issue on The Wire too. I loved the two number 2 guys having a little heart to heart. Even before the bomb went off, it was apparent that Anthony would never betray Elias but that Marlo wasn't nearly as loyal to Dominic.

 

I don't find Dominic especially menacing as a character, but that may be due to the fact that I have seen some seriously scary criminals on tv before (like The Wire). I also watch The Good Wife and dude, Lemond Bishop is terrifying. In comparison, Dominic just seems like a punk.

 

Although Shaw will be angry when she wakes up, Root did the right thing. She keeps the mission foremost in her mind. That is always the priority no matter what the cost. Shaw's loyalty to Reese could have cost all of them and Root knew she couldn't risk that, not even for Reese (despite Root and Reese constantly needling each other, she definitely respects his skill set so she wouldn't want to lose him unless absolutely necessary). Bear was so sweet lying on the floor next to Shaw's bed. He is going to give her lots of Bear kisses when she wakes up!

 

Both Shaw and Reese like to believe that they are detached and independent but both of them have soft spots so it was interesting to contrast Anthony's loyalty and willingness to die for Elias with Shaw and Reese's loyalty and willingness to risk their lives (for Reese and Elias, respectively) at the expense of possibly exposing the group.

 

Fusco was awesome this week. Between his Lucy and Ethel remark and playing Martine, he gets a gold star this week.

 

I like Elias so I'm glad he lived to see another day. He has his own code and set of rules. Although he was responsible for other deaths, he was unwilling to leave Anthony behind with Dominic. Heh, I loved when he told Reese about Anthony's past and then said obviously they got along right away. I worry for his other friend though. Stay safe, accounting guy!

[merylinkid]

 

Dominic just seems like a punk.

 

He is a punk.    He is not nearly as smart as he thinks he is.  He's just been dealing with other punks before so his method works with them.   Not with true organized crime.  He does nothing to really build an organization.    You have to offer more than his own crew to someone.   Which hey, eventually you run out of crews or someone wants more and starts taking over crews of others, thereby challenging your authority.   Then casually killing and say minions are replaceable in front of a minion is absolutely the height of stupidity.   

 

Elias is a criminal.   He is not a punk.   Hence his longevity in that world.

[Princess Lucky]

He is a punk.    He is not nearly as smart as he thinks he is.  He's just been dealing with other punks before so his method works with them.   Not with true organized crime.  He does nothing to really build an organization.    You have to offer more than his own crew to someone.   Which hey, eventually you run out of crews or someone wants more and starts taking over crews of others, thereby challenging your authority.   Then casually killing and say minions are replaceable in front of a minion is absolutely the height of stupidity.  

 

Elias is a criminal.   He is not a punk.   Hence his longevity in that world.

I absolutely agree. I think seeing Dominic falter (kind of) was on purpose. He's not, in my view, a Big Bad written poorly. He is someone who thinks he's a Big Bad but in actuality is a Medium Bad (if you will). This episode succeeded in showing us Dominic's flaw. As Elias said, it was hubris. Dominic is extremely intelligent and he has traits we haven't really seen in the other PoI criminals; the biggest being that he has an eye on the big picture. Not just the gang/mob scene big picture. The Big Picture. He's nowhere near unearthing the truth about Samaritan or the Machine, of course, but he has connected way too many dots. Elias > Reese > Shaw > ? was huge. Which is why, indeed, Dominic might be used by Samaritan down the line.

 

But intelligence aside, it doesn't seem that Dominic knows how to handle a criminal business at that scale. He has a refreshing yet limited view; by saying everyone is expendable he gains in boldness, which brings him temporari victories, but he will lose in the longterm. And that's what this episode foreshadowed, in my opinion. Scarface and Link's conversation was very poignant and Link's face in the end said it all. He also said "I'm not seeing it" (gaining anything), exactly because in his book losing all these good soldiers was a loss. Dominic doesn't count that as a loss, so his tally is different.

 

Overall, we already knew Dominic was extremely smart. I think this episode in particular showed us that, while Dominic is extremely dangerous for the team (because he's made all the connections Samaritan needs to make, as mentioned by many above), he may be limited as a criminal mastermind. He won't be able to sustain his empire. Not like Elias was. This show has always been about loyalty, about camaraderie. I don't see someone like Dominic coming out on top.

[TAG42481]

Fantastic episode.  I just love how well Jim Caviezel and Enrico Colantoni play off of each other.  And I actually shed a tear for Anthony's demise.  But I know Elias will make Dominic pay for it in the end.

[kwnyc]

Since they all shoot in NYC, I'd love to see some crossovers with the other CBS dramas (not really). But it is amusing to imagine what would happen if Team Machine got Kalinda's number and had to deal with Lemond Bishop. Or if Danny Regan ended up partnered with Lionel on a case (Fusco would eat Regan's lunch). Or watching Harold have to deal with Sherlock Holmes. Or if Shaw got a job selling soap for Polly (Piper's best friend) from OITNB on Netflix's top show.

 

Happy Thanksgiving! ;-)

[atua]

So now The Brotherhood and Samaritan are actively hunting our guys. How in the hell are Nolan and Plageman going to get them out of this box?

Well, Elias has begun to retaliate.  Starting with Gino.  Dominic & The Brotherhood are going to lose all their recently acquired allies, one by one.  And Dominic is going to find out that all the talk he's been talking is only talk.  Because now he has to start walking the walk.

I don't know about Samaritan, but between Dominic sticking his nose in a battle that can only get him killed (TM vs Samaritan), Elias gunning after his new and untested allies, and a shaky second-in-command with dubious loyalties, The Brotherhood looks like it'll implode shortly.

 

It seems to me that, in each episode, Team Machine picks up a possible ally or at least someone who starts having doubts about the side he/she is on. The fake John, the international jewel thief, Shaw's protégé, now Dominic's second in command. I can't help but think we're going to get a Harry Potter ending in that when the Final Battle between Good and Evil happens, all these folks are going to come out of the woodwork to fight with Team Machine.

Interesting theory. I'm thinking that Control and/or Senator Garrison will eventually swing back on TM's side. Her codename is apropos, and just as she dislikes the fact that she can't control TM, she'll hate the fact that an open system like Samaritan is in the hands of a third party that she has no influence or oversight over more. Especially if said third party keeps on shooting up hotels and department stores in full view of witnesses. Just as hubris was the cause for Dominic's failure this episode, so will it be for Samaritan. Edited November 27, 2014 by atua

[Driad]

Crossovers -- I prefer not to see them either, partly because so many are a show I watch plus a show I don't watch.

But fanfiction writers can do crossovers and anything else. There may be some good fics around. Someone might want to start a fanfic thread to point out fics that are worth a look.

[Dowel Jones]

Crossovers

 

Finch:  Mr.  Reese?  It seems we have a problem with The Machine.  It seems to be imploding, spewing out numbers because of some Scandal in Washington DC.  And Samaritan is doing the same thing, advising that they should all be terminated immediately.

Shaw:  I heard that.  I'm in.

[atua]

Did Anthony say "Nos morituri te salutamus"  to Elias on the phone or am I mistaken?  Also thought Elias said something else in Latin right near the end but again, I could be mistaken.

The two latin phrases were "morior invictus" (death before defeat) from Scarface, and "invictus maneo" (I remain unvanquished) from Elias.

[tessaray]

I wish I had liked this episode more. It did have some good moments but it felt very scattered to me.  And I still dislike Dominic and the Brotherhood.  An intelligent, brutal, ambitious thug is still a thug in the end. And thugs are tiresome, not entertaining.  Even Elias couldn't save this episode for me.  Obviously just more pawns being placed on the chess board for whatever showdown the EPs have planned.  Yawn.      

 

I don't get Martine either. She's supposed to be intelligent (an investigator for the Hague?) but what kind of dumbass shoots up a cosmetic department?  None of this makes a police report - or the news or YouTube or Facebook or Twitter? Why doesn't Harold start wondering about that?  Is Samaritan suppressing that kind of content or are people self-censoring?  (That might actually be interesting... )

 

PoI is my show, so I get cranky when I don't like an episode. :-)  

Edited November 27, 2014 by tessaray

[Trey]

The two latin phrases were "morior invictus" (death before defeat) from Scarface, and "invictus maneo" (I remain unvanquished) from Elias.

Thanks, atua.  I didn't really catch it all, just "mor....." so thought he said "We who are about to die salute you" which would have fit in well with his loyalty to Elias and with Dominic's speech about the Romans.  But "morior invictus" was pretty good too.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Since they all shoot in NYC, I'd love to see some crossovers with the other CBS dramas (not really). But it is amusing to imagine what would happen if Team Machine got Kalinda's number and had to deal with Lemond Bishop. Or if Danny Regan ended up partnered with Lionel on a case (Fusco would eat Regan's lunch). Or watching Harold have to deal with Sherlock Holmes. Or if Shaw got a job selling soap for Polly (Piper's best friend) from OITNB on Netflix's top show.

Happy Thanksgiving! ;-)

The Good Wife is set in Chicago so they would have to take a field trip but it would be worth it to see Lemond Bishop take down Dominic without so much as wrinkling his suit.

[Netfoot]

I still dislike Dominic and the Brotherhood.  An intelligent, brutal, ambitious thug is still a thug in the end. And thugs are tiresome, not entertaining. 

 

I keep hearing about how intelligent Dominic is, but... is he?  Maybe more than the average foot soldier.  However, he doesn't seem to understand what will result from his a policy of ignoring loyalty.  He seems unaware that self-preservation is the first characteristic of any successful species -- or individual.  The entire essence of his organization's cultural foundation is flawed, and can only lead to failure.  All this he does not seem to see.

[pcta]

Podcast on Golden Spiral has date as Ali Frasier fight where the older fighter defeats the younger. This seems to go along with one of the boxing scenes in the background - again the older fighter defeating the younger.

I will miss Anthony. He was one of my favorites. But glad Elias survives.

[bros402]

I assumed 103074 was a birthday, too, but couldn't think of anyone significant to Elias who would be 40--that's too old to be his child, too young to be his mother, and his backstory doesn't indicate a sibling. But the Rumble in the Jungle makes metaphorical sense. I guess. Does this mean Dominic will have sons and name all of them Dominic and start shilling a grill?

 

I was thinking it was the date Elias' mother was killed.

[Oscirus]

Time to get controversial.

 

If anything, I'd be on the brotherhood's  side. For all this stuff about Elias is better for the criminal underworld, there's still the fact that Elias is just as if not more ruthless. Lest we forget, this is a guy  who was willing to kill a baby.  I haven't seen the brotherhood do anything even remotely as bad as that. Brotherhood might be dangerous but team machine has repeatedly attacked them with little to no response from Dominic. Also, by saving Elias team Machine just started a blood bath that likely didn't have to happen. But yea, at least Elias is around to give gotham a better class of criminal.

 

Elias is a criminal.   He is not a punk.   Hence his longevity in that world.

 

A punk who would've been taken out if not for help from team machine.  Dominique has repeatedly had  Elias where he wanted him but was thwarted by unforeseen circumstances.  Who would expect a machine to start interfering with their plans? If team machine was helping the people that Elias killed then Elias wouldn't have been on top in the first place.

 

If the number two turns, I doubt he'd go to the good side or Elias's side, his betrayal would likely result in  Dominique being overthrown. However, I see the storyline culminating his attempt failing and there being a new number two promoted in his place.

 

 I don't feel as if Team Machine is cornered at all. I mean yea Dominique knows of their existence but he's still otherwise occupied and besides he has yet to have gotten any results against these guys.

 

Samaritan might be finally covering it's blind spots, but we just saw it get fooled by a motorcycle going into a truck. I'm not impressed with it's capabilities.

[kwnyc]

I haven't seen the brotherhood do anything even remotely as bad as that.

 

Well, they were going to take out two little kids had not Team Machine intervened.

[tessaray]

I don't like TM choosing sides in a mob war but it wasn't as if they went hunting for Dominic specifically.    

 

Despite Harold trying to embed morality into the code, we know the Machine is just as likely to throw Elias's number as any other potential victim, so either it doesn't care what he does or it really sees Elias as the better choice when it comes to mob bosses.  Since the Machine sees crimes in the planning stage (primarily terrorism but catching irrelevants too) I'm assuming Harold had to teach it to ignore a certain amount of organized crime or those crimes would overwhelm the potential results.  If so, then Harold inadvertently caused this situation. :-)  

 

I don't know if they ever addressed how organized crime fit into the Machine's algorithms.  I might have missed it. 

[basiltherat]

The Machine spits out a number of a person who is either a vic or a perp -- or sometimes both.  The very first episode had perp who  everyone thought at first was a victim.  Ergo, Elias could be one, the other --or both.  And maybe Dom in the future, too.

[shura]

Elias is a criminal.   He is not a punk.   Hence his longevity in that world.

A punk who would've been taken out if not for help from team machine.  Dominique has repeatedly had  Elias where he wanted him but was thwarted by unforeseen circumstances.

 

Good point. And, for all the loyalty that Elias has supposedly inspired in his followers, it seems that he is losing them left and right now that their self-interest tells them they'd be better off under Dominic. Just ask Geno.

[immortalfrieza]

It seems to me that, in each episode, Team Machine picks up a possible ally or at least someone who starts having doubts about the side he/she is on. The fake John, the international jewel thief, Shaw's protégé, now Dominic's second in command. I can't help but think we're going to get a Harry Potter ending in that when the Final Battle between Good and Evil happens, all these folks are going to come out of the woodwork to fight with Team Machine.

Team Machine do seem to be cultivating quite a number of people that owe them their lives, many of which could be very useful against Samaritan. Still, I'd like to see the Team make some actual progress against Samaritan already, it seems like they just sit on their hands and at most stall some of Samaritan's goals rather than take the fight to them for the most part. In fact, I'm surprised that The Machine didn't stockpile assets specifically to deal with Samaritan long before it ever came online, just in case they failed to stop it.

 

Of course, both the good guys and bad guys are terrible shots when the plot calls for it, shows like this do that all the time. If the plot requires that somebody take out a dozen guys 1 shot each 2 blocks away with a handgun, it'll happen, but if it requires that the two sides not kill each other or at least drag it out, then supposedly highly trained marksman have worse accuracy than a blind man and get into an extended shootout like a bunch of amateurs.

[Zahdii]

Well, when you're taking about an almost all-knowing machine, and you're considered the bad guys by both the machine and the human organizations that are in league with it (whether they know it or not), you've got a problem.  Plus, Team Machine was in hiding and has had all their previous assets taken from them and until recently was living only on the incomes they got from their undercover day jobs... 

 

Root actually has the most resources and camouflage available to her, but she's unraveling because she was kept on a tight leash by the Machine until recently, and she wasn't that sane to begin with.

[immortalfrieza]

Well, when you're taking about an almost all-knowing machine, and you're considered the bad guys by both the machine and the human organizations that are in league with it (whether they know it or not), you've got a problem.  Plus, Team Machine was in hiding and has had all their previous assets taken from them and until recently was living only on the incomes they got from their undercover day jobs... 

 

Root actually has the most resources and camouflage available to her, but she's unraveling because she was kept on a tight leash by the Machine until recently, and she wasn't that sane to begin with.

Well, I suppose my problem is that Team Machine seems completely unprepared for the event that Samaritan comes online. Aside from creating the blind spot prior neither Team Machine nor The Machine itself made any attempt to stockpile personnel, money, and resources or any sort of measures to be able to fight off Samaritan if they failed to stop it coming online. That, and that they seem to not be doing much to undermine Samaritan or Greer or anything directly, just kind of getting in the way of Samaritan's New York efforts which are at most a drop in the bucket to them. In short I guess I'm saying that it seems like Team Machine is the one taking all the blows in this fight so far, not throwing any themselves.

[stealinghome]

Well, I suppose my problem is that Team Machine seems completely unprepared for the event that Samaritan comes online. Aside from creating the blind spot prior neither Team Machine nor The Machine itself made any attempt to stockpile personnel, money, and resources or any sort of measures to be able to fight off Samaritan if they failed to stop it coming online. That, and that they seem to not be doing much to undermine Samaritan or Greer or anything directly, just kind of getting in the way of Samaritan's New York efforts which are at most a drop in the bucket to them. In short I guess I'm saying that it seems like Team Machine is the one taking all the blows in this fight so far, not throwing any themselves.

I don't disagree, but I also don't think Team Machine was at all prepared for Samaritan to come online. Finch was too busy burying his head in the sand and chanting "la la la I can't hear you" to make any sort of preparations (the deleted scenes on the S3 Blu-ray show that he'd left New York after Death Benefit and only came back in Beta because Grace was in danger), and imo neither Shaw or Reese truly understood what Samaritan coming online meant for them all until Root was telling everyone they had to be new people at the end of Deus Ex Machina. Heck, even in this episode, it's clear that Shaw doesn't really understand what her cover being blown means initially. Root has to spell it out for her a bit.

 

I do think Root was somewhat more prepared, thanks to The Machine, though. She has to have a separate source of money and weapons, because she's been well provisioned this whole time (she must need a ton of cash if she's burning through identities like they're candy) and doesn't seem to be drawing from the subway's stash of money/ammo.

 

I also agree that thus far Team Machine has been taking all the punches, but I expect that to change in the back half of the season and into next season--we've already gotten hints that the Team is fighting back, through Harold's sabotage of the woman's laptop in Hong Kong (can't remember her name). But I think the show had to show Team Machine on the ropes initially, because it would undercut Samaritan's threat if they were able to defeat it uber-easily. As it is, I still feel the show is underplaying Samaritan's danger.

[Netfoot]

The machine's actions would indicate inferior capabilities to Samaritan, simply by what it could do and doesn't.  It wouldn't be difficult to make an absolute killing on the world stock markets, producing enough finances to acquire just about any equipment and fund any action.  Obviously, if the Machine avoids such action, it's because her ability to shroud this activity from Samaritan is less capable than Samaritan's ability to detect it.

 

I think the Machine has now been established as the under-dog, with less personnel, less equipment, and less money.  This puts her in the perfect position to come from behind and heroically vanquish her foe.

[immortalfrieza]

I think the Machine has now been established as the under-dog, with less personnel, less equipment, and less money.  This puts her in the perfect position to come from behind and heroically vanquish her foe.

I get that that's what the writers are going for, but I think they're going way too far. With underdog stories no matter how pathetic the underdog is you can see the potential underneath that is waiting to be built up which still gives them a chance but this story is lacking that. When you put up Team Machine's resources Vs. Samaritan's unless something changes pretty soon I can't really see how Team Machine would have a ghost of a chance against Samaritan at this point. They either need to undermine Samaritan's resources while bolstering their own pretty significantly both ways the next few episodes or the writers need to pull one epic asspull for Team Machine to be able to win. Team Machine actually being expected to win is stretching even my level of believability. In short, they don't look like they could win at all at this point. The ultimate fight between Good and Evil requires both sides to have a roughly equal chance or it just doesn't work.

[ABay]

I don't understand why Harold, Root, and the 3 Amigos, or the Machine, aren't working on a virus to take Samaritan offline or cripple it or something. Maybe they are but there's been no hint of it at all.

[CoderLady]

There has been a little hint: Harold planted some code on a system belonging to someone about to start business dealings with the Samaritan people a few episodes back. This was after his "We have to talk" conversation with the Machine. I expect it to be like the poisoned laptop from China storyline from earlier seasons in that it pays off after everyone has forgotten it.

[merylinkid]

They've been setting up Samaritan's hubris.   It's belief that it is invinciable.   It sees all and knows all.   So shooting up hotels and cosmetic counters can be smoothed over.   Except well not, because you can't kill everyone who saw those things.  We have the hidden numbers.   We have the lady with the laptop.   We have the pollster who knows even if he can't prove it that something is up.   We have Elias and his gang as muscle.   Do they still have the coders in Brazil?   

 

Just had a thought, Samaritan is really only US based.   Hence the coders in Brazil last season.   Harold going to Hong Kong to put the whatever in the lady's laptop so that Samaritan won't notice until it back in the US.   

 

All building up the team's resources for the final show down of some kind.   

[kwnyc]

 

the writers need to pull one epic asspull for Team Machine to be able to win.

I look forward to the season ender, titled "One Epic Asspull." 

 

(Also, among the folks who owe The Machine favors and have a lot of resources are that billionaire guy & his female friend who came up with the huge social network, the kid who accidentally killed his brother, whom Harold talked out of jumping in front of the subway, and who was apparently a coding genius, and the Scooby team that Root saved & gave new identities to at the end of last season).

[ABay]

I forgot about that, CoderLady, although I was just thinking about the flashback of the earlier versions of the Machine trying to kill Harold. Perhaps dealing with all of the other versions has given him some insight about killing Samaritan.

[Netfoot]

When you put up Team Machine's resources Vs. Samaritan's unless something changes pretty soon I can't really see how Team Machine would have a ghost of a chance against Samaritan at this point. They either need to undermine Samaritan's resources while bolstering their own pretty significantly both ways the next few episodes or the writers need to pull one epic asspull for Team Machine to be able to win.

 

I don't know if there will be a single "epic asspull" or a slow strengthening of the Machine and a gradual defeat of Samaritan.  But I think the deciding factor won't be resources in the traditional way.  I think that the deciding factor will be the ethical foundation upon which the Machine stands, as imbued upon her by Harold.  From this, strength by strength, will come victory.

 

"Her strength is as the strength of ten, because her heart is pure."  (With apologies to Alfred, Lord Tennyson.)

[ABay]

Apologizing even more to Alfie: the Grinch found the strength of *ten* Grinches, plus two! Also, some say his heart grew 3 sizes that day. But Samaritan is more Grinchian than the Machine and Our Heroes, even though they have Max/Bear...

 

Yeah, I'm stepping away from the eggnog now.

[Camera One]

I get that that's what the writers are going for, but I think they're going way too far. With underdog stories no matter how pathetic the underdog is you can see the potential underneath that is waiting to be built up which still gives them a chance but this story is lacking that.

 

I can see what you are saying as well, though this show is known for its slow burn.  The rise of Samaritan was completely unprecedented and completely out of the blue for Finch and there was nothing he could do about it.  Samaritan does seem very strong right now, but in a sense, even being able to operate undercover is a win for now.  Hopefully, little by little, Team Machine will build up more ammunition.  Though hopefully before too many innocents are killed.  I'm not a huge fan of that violence, and this season has had a lot more of it.  I get it's supposed to up the stakes and all that, but it's just not very enjoyable to watch for me, so I can't wait for Samaritan and Greer to suffer at least a little bit.  If it's like any other show, it will all come down to love, and Samaritan will lose because it doesn't understand it.  

[Syme]

Shaw and Martine are the worst shots ever.

 

Nod.....

I laughed when when she pulled the P90 out from the cabinet...

 

Man, Martine just totally underestimated Fusco, huh? 

 

Hubris

 

That's because Harold's an engineer and Greer is a manager. ;-)

 

Manager/bureaucritter...

 

"Her strength is as the strength of ten, because her heart is pure."  (With apologies to Alfred, Lord Tennyson.)

 

I'd go with "We have met the enemy, and he is us" for Greer's side

and/or "Clear Eyes, Full Hearts, Can't Lose" for Harold's Panthers.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Syme

[bros402]

I'm guessing Team Machine will take advantage of their map of camera dead spots in the city in order to deal with the increased quantity of agents of Samaritan on the streets of NYC.

 

Also, Elias keeps mentioning the debt that Team Machine owes him - perhaps they'll pay the debt and then some by giving Elias a copy of the map, then cash in their credit to have the organized crime syndicates of NYC assist Team Machine against Samaritan and its agents.

 

I miss Control. Hopefully she has a hand in the downfall of Samaritan.

[Netfoot]

I laughed when when she pulled the ?MP5, I think, out from the cabinet...

 

I think it's a Fabrique Nationale P90, designed around FN's FiveseveN ammo.

 

ETA: Oooops!  I see you ID'd the weapon before I could finish my reply.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Netfoot

[Syme]

I think it's a Fabrique Nationale P90, designed around FN's FiveseveN ammo.

 

ETA: Oooops!  I see you ID'd the weapon before I could finish my reply.

 

Yea, I had to go hunting to match it up. One thing is for sure, Shaw sure ain't a MAC10 type of gal. I can see Harold wincing over the bills for her shopping trips.

 

Come to think of it, she'd be good friends with Fiona, wouldn't she?

[Julia]

What I'm not understanding is how HR - who surely knew about Dominic - failed to pass along Reese's picture to him last year, when ostensibly every street thug in New York was looking for him.

[stealinghome]

Or how some dirty cop who avoided the HR purge hasn't noticed him yet!

[kwnyc]

 

Or how some dirty cop who avoided the HR purge hasn't noticed him yet!

I think it's highly within the realm of possibility that this has happened...but a dirty cop would still have to be ultra-careful, because he or she would be at huge risk from the department & the feds.

 

And, there are 35,000 cops on the dept. That's a pretty big pool for The Man in the Suit to swim in.

[paramitch]

Despite a slow start for me, this show always builds each season until I'm frantic for the next episode. I just don't know any other show quite like it. Some of the individual "Number of the Week" episodes can be slow going for me, as they don't always engage me, but then I'll begin to see the patterns and subtexts and soon the arc always ramps up for me. Each season, it's always the same. I'll even forget to watch a few eps, but when I return to them I'll find I can't stop watching, and that I think about them long after they air.

 

My favorite thing about PoI is that it's a much richer, deeper show than I think it sometimes appears to be (and don't even get me started on the brilliance of the way its Sci-Fi universe is tidily packaged in an action/cop-show wrapper). It's also a thoughtfully written show that rewards thoughtful viewing. It's one of the few shows I watch where I'm not working while I watch or doing something else. It always has my undivided attention.

 

These last episodes I can not help feeling that Samaritan is actually Skynet and Martine is one of its Terminators. Last night's episode she is emulating T-X (Kristanna Loken) by shooting wildly in the crowd without expression, without emotion. The fact that she is blonde and has her hair tightly in a bun on the back just enforces that idea.

I think Cara Buono is just fantastic in this part, and it's cool to see her play someone so different from her role on "Mad Men," for instance. I find Martine really interesting.

 

It seems to me that, in each episode, Team Machine picks up a possible ally or at least someone who starts having doubts about the side he/she is on. The fake John, the international jewel thief, Shaw's protégé, now Dominic's second in command. I can't help but think we're going to get a Harry Potter ending in that when the Final Battle between Good and Evil happens, all these folks are going to come out of the woodwork to fight with Team Machine.

I definitely agree with this, and it's one of those emerging patterns that PoI creates really well. I get the feeling that Finch is weaving a tapestry -- from allies, to planted viruses, etc., and that we're not seeing everything he's up to right now. Yet.

 

Also fantastic? Root! And Shoot! My feelings! I loved that Root was genuinely upset that Shaw almost died and I love that Shaw was shaken by that. Shaw may act tough but we all remember her scared look when she thought Root was a goner, a few episodes back (not to mention, again, last season's finale). So, Root laid it all out. She cares for Shaw. Now all that's left is for Shaw to admit she feels the same way. Which she won't. Aw, those two!

I kind of rolled my eyes at first at how the Root/Shaw subtext had so rapidly become text, but I admit it, they've sold me, and I love their banter. Especially when it's so often Root who looks worried and scared, and those are such odd expressions to see on Amy Acker's face here. I've found it interesting this season the way they've subtly played up how absolutely lonely Root really is at heart.

 

The fact that the rest of the group all feels the same about Bear is wonderful.  I'd feel sorry for the person who hurt or killed Bear, because they'd have the entire group go all crazy on their ass, and I bet the Machine would back them up.  Go Bear!

I love Bear so much and he was a genius addition to the crew. I'm a sucker for animals every time, and he's such a truly integral and useful part of the team. (Also: Bear's tweets are awesome.)

 

One of the things that really stuck out to me as I was thinking about the episode last night was a) the strong loyalty parallels between Team Machine and Elias' people and b) but also how much Harold was compartmentalizing that last night. Dominic's utter lack of loyalty all the way around was strongly juxtaposed against the two-way loyalty between Elias and Scarface (and Bruce), of course, as was Team Machine's care and concern for each other against Martine's new nameless, faceless gang. But Harold was really setting up barriers between his team last night, too. He wouldn't let Fusco help Reese after Fusco's brush with Martine, he (and Root) wouldn't let Shaw help Reese, he wouldn't let Reese help Shaw...Finch is slipping farther and farther into Murky Mastermind territory, and it's so interesting to me. It's happened in a lot of the B plots thus far, but I can't wait for it to explode into the A plot in a big way by the end of the season. I also have to say that I've really missed Finch in the last two episodes...hopefully that means the mid-season finale is going to be Finch-heavy.

I loved this, and the way you illuminated how Harold's actions once again show that we aren't seeing all of the picture, and we're not meant to (yet). It's fascinating to me that Harold is up to something and we can just see the edges of it right now.

 

Fusco brings so much to the show, even with his limited(-ish) screentime. Plus I love how often he gets to bust in and save everyone's ass, this season it's been more pronounced.

 

Every single of these people has someone they care about (each other, mostly) and I'm sure they'd all break the rules/risk capture to save each other or even to avenge a death. But someone has to keep a cool head. That's why the team works. Even when one person loses it, someone backs them up. When Reese lost it after Carter, Finch and Shaw helped him out. Finch was a mess over Grace being kidnapped, and Reese was there for him. The thing is, they can't all lose it. Someone has to make sure of that. Usually that someone is Finch, and Root who is less emotionally attached to the others (except Shaw, of course). Finch is trying to juggle a lot of balls right now and he can't afford to be emotional. I don't blame him. But, yes, I am intrigued. He needs to clue people in more. He can't be the only one with the burden of knowing everything.

First off, I so agree on Fusco -- he's such an incredibly rich and complex character now, and I love his character's journey from corrupt cop to true hero, and it's all so believable. And Kevin Chapman is just so damn good -- he can go from hilarious to heartbreaking in a snap. I loved the way he played Fusco's scene with Martine.

 

That's what makes him so compelling -- I'm no mob-apologist, but there is a real decency to him; remember how great a teacher he was!  I see Elias and I think what he could have accomplished if he had used his powers for good.  Although, not gonna lie, I'm really looking forward to him taking out Dominic, and I suppose that could be considered a good thing ;) .  He's a remarkably complex character, especially compared to Dominic, who basically has no characterization at all.  It doesn't help, too, that I don't think the actor is very good at this role -- Dominic seems to have such a flat affect, which, come to think of it, might be on purpose and tied to his failure to inspire any kind of loyalty.

I really thought Elias was a goner here, but as I absolutely adore Colantoni, I was so glad to be wrong. And I agree that he's a genuinely interesting and compelling character. Yes, he's a bad guy.  But what I like is that the show continues to treat that fact with complexity -- he's a person with a past, with his own conflicts, loyalties and feelings. He's fascinating and I like what he does to the Samaritan/Machine chessboard too.

Dominic isn't nearly so interesting yet I do think he is a fairly good picture of the kind of next-generation criminal we're seeing (and that "The Wire" painted so compellingly in seasons 4 and 5 -- and I love the irony that the Wire's mastermind is now a thoughtful second lieutenant unsure of his loyalties).

 

The two latin phrases were "morior invictus" (death before defeat) from Scarface, and "invictus maneo" (I remain unvanquished) from Elias.

I loved the Latin touches (and it was interesting when they were discussing Rome, as Scarface looked so handsome and Roman in that moment, too -- Valcin has a wonderful face). Although I prefer the translation "unconquered" (I just like the word better).

 

Last but not least -- I hope we see Control again, too. She's another fascinating character for me. I love that about this show -- all these people have shades of gray to them, shifting and conflicting goals, wants, regrets, allegiances, because that's the way people actually are. It's so much more interesting than the paint-by-numbers stuff (pun intended) that we usually see on cop shows.

[johntfs]

I have to wonder if The Machine set up or allowed the situation between the Brotherhood and Elias' group to boil up in order to study it and apply what she learned to her battle with Samaritan.  I wonder what that might bode for the future.  If Root is The Machine's prophet, perhaps Carl Elias will become her consigliere.