Small Talk: The Prayer Closet

[Featherhat]

And honestly, there is some question as to how fixed people's sexual orientations can be. There is still a lot of research going on when it comes to the idea of sexual fluidity. I think a lot of people in the LGBT community are resistant to this because we think it gives ammo to anti-gay bigots who insist that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice. But, I mean, regardless, it's obviously not something that people deliberately, voluntarily choose, so in that sense it's still not a choice. But I can see how people would use it to try and "pray the gay away." I know a lot of Southern Baptist leaders who have grudgingly accepted that it's not a choice in the true sense of the word but insist that they still think God can change a person's orientation. So yes, to that end, it's unfortunate.

I think that's right. The "I was born this way!" button was hit so hard because otherwise there would have left them vulnerable to BS "conversion therapy" and "why should you have rights to marry someone of the same sex if you don't absolutely have any other choice". I've never been particularly fond of it, although, as you say, potential sexual fluidity isn't something you just wake up and choose one morning.

 

However there are possible examples of "situation homosexuality" in a variety of societies throughout history; Athens, Sparta, Rome etc although some of those were ritual paedophilic rape of young boys. But there were situations where society almost expected you to have a male lover at one point in your life then come home and marry your arranged wife and do what you like (or not) on the side.

Being bisexual I would absolutely have wanted a lesbian love affair when waiting for an arranged marriage in Regency Society, but that's slightly different. I did go to an all girls boarding school for a while and I believe there were slight cases of situational or fluid hormone driven semi-lesbianism going on there (yes all the clichés). Girls who I know who have boyfriends now were hand holding and snuggling and rubbing etc. Not quite the same thing as described in the original post, but it doesn't make it hard for me to believe some might use it as an outlet. There are of course those who would have had no interest in the idea what so ever

and thought only about boys (and found ways to have access to boys) but I think its an interesting idea. We sometimes forget that our ideas about gender and sexuality, as advanced as they are, as much as LGBT rights have been steadily improving in the West, that there are other ways of considering it that aren't offensive in and of themselves despite how they are used to damage LGBT rights at this point in time.

 

As a man, I don't think men are flexible. I like men and only men, and there's not a thing that I or anyone else could do to change that.

I'm sure that's correct for you. The number of men that have admitted to being curious about it to me, blows that out of the water from my POV.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Featherhat

[amitville]

Wanderwoman, I was relieved to hear from you. For some reason I feel I know you. I lost my daughter, my husband, have no family, pffft.... and it is a dark and lonely place to be.

But you do have family. Maisie. The bond between a mother and daughter is unique, tight and full of unmeasureable joy. Perhaps it is why I am having such a hard time with the loss of my daughter. I can't get over it but I got over "the love of my life" rather quickly. :-) In time, you will too.

I wish I could help you.

Your post brought tears to my eyes.  ((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))

[lookeyloo]

As a man, I don't think men are flexible. I like men and only men, and there's not a thing that I or anyone else could do to change that.

My gay son says he could be with a woman (was engaged once) but prefers men.  He lives openly gay - married to a man.  I think there might be something to the "fluidity".  Are you just talking about men?  One of my friends was married to a man, had two children.  Divorced.  Later met another woman.  They have been together over 25 years.  She said if she were left alone she would probably look for a man.  Interesting topic.  I'm guessing no one "right" answer for everyone.

[HundFan]

I don't disagree with your comments re sexual fluidity, galax. And my comment re people occasionally swimming in unfamiliar ponds goes directly to the sort of prison activity you cited.

 

But the discussion I addressed in the Josh thread focused on people debating whether the lesbian population increased in certain eras as a result of restrictive social mores. It may be a simple matter of semantics. I'd have had no issue with "women who have same sex encounters" as opposed to "lesbian population." The latter, to me, means women who absolutely, unequivocally, prefer women to men. Not hetero women who, deprived of other options, sublimate their sexual needs into contact with other women.

 

I'm no authority on sexual behavior. But because of my daughter, I'm all too aware many people want to dismiss homosexuality as a "lifestyle" -- because then it can be therapied, or prayed or whatevered away. So, as a person whose stock in trade is words, I want to make sure we use the right ones when talking about something this important. Someone else can be hall monitor next week. :)

Edited August 27, 2015 by HundFan

[galax-arena]

But the discussion I addressed in the Josh thread focused on people debating whether the lesbian population increased in certain eras as a result of restrictive social mores. It may be a simple matter of semantics. I'd have had no issue with "women who have same sex encounters" as opposed to "lesbian population." The latter, to me, means women who absolutely, unequivocally, prefer women to men. Not hetero women who, deprived of other options, sublimate their sexual needs into contact with other women.

Yeah, that's why I said that I don't think that other person's wording was the best. But I think what I said in my previous comment is what they were driving at. I hope so, anyway! 

 

ETA: All the talk in the Benessa thread about the Creation Museum has me legit interested in visiting, as loath as I am to give Ken Ham any of my money. I'm looking up accommodations as we speak. Didja know that they offer Creation Museum packages for local hotels?? I've emailed a friend of mine to see if she wants to go with me, because she likes to travel, but she might not be masochistic enough to say yes.

Edited August 27, 2015 by galax-arena

[Bella]

First, let me say that I agree with what HundFan wrote, above.

 

My best friend from h.s. married a man, had a daughter, and some years later left him to marry the love of her life - another woman. She says she was always a lesbian but that it was hard for her to act on it decades ago when she first got married. Plus, she and her husband had a lot of interests in common and were best friends; the child bonded them even further. But none of that changed her sexuality, and she eventually acted to become what she calls her "most honest self."

 

Another friend is bisexual. She's been married to 3 different men, has 2 children, and had affairs with women between her marriages. She's now single. She hasn't referred to this as her "most honest self," but it's clear that this is who she is. She characterizes herself as going through sexual phases.

 

I'm not going to argue with anyone characterizing their own sexuality. We each know who we are, and none of us have standing to contradict anyone else. To me, that includes people we think may have repressed themselves. Until they state something different, I don't believe it's anyone else's place to tell them they're wrong. We can think what we like, but we're not them; we don't know.

 

YMMV (in big flashing neon lights).

[AnJen]

Original poster of the lesbian comment, here: the question wasn't if, given a lack of men, women will choose to "go gay".

 

Rather, the question was whether, given a society that segregates sexes pretty rigidly (men and women shouldn't have even been alone in the same room together, weren't allowed to write letters to each other unless engaged, weren't supposed to have any skin-on-skin contact unless married or family*) but which encourages close same-sex relationships, romantic relationships would be formed between women in a more-frequent-than-average amount because the nature of their friendship is much more intimate than anything else they are allowed to have.

 

I don't think anyone chooses their sexuality, but there are many examples of heterosexual individuals in a sex-segregated environment engaging in homosexual sex; the above-mentioned posts already discussed this. But I was referring to both romance and sex, whether they occurred together or just one or the other, in my initial post.

 

I hope this clarified things, rather than making it more confusing; I'm posting sporadically from work, and haven't been able to have more than a few minutes at a time to type, so this post feels a bit disjointed as I read over it.

 

*My Regency knowledge isn't perfect, and I am by no means a historian; all of the above is what I've learned from casual reading of books and research, some of which came unsourced from the internet.

[bob.loblaw]

ETA: All the talk in the Benessa thread about the Creation Museum has me legit interested in visiting, as loath as I am to give Ken Ham any of my money. I'm looking up accommodations as we speak. Didja know that they offer Creation Museum packages for local hotels?? I've emailed a friend of mine to see if she wants to go with me, because she likes to travel, but she might not be masochistic enough to say yes.

 

Of all things, this is what brought me out of lurking and into the light :)  First off, I have to say that you all have entertained me with your hilarious, on point snark for a long time, and that I have been reading many of your stories here from afar and wish good thoughts to all of you who are going through rough times.

 

Anywho, I live near the Creation Museum and it's worth going purely for the absurdity of it all. Several years ago when it first opened, I went with my husband and family for kicks.  We are varying degrees of Catholic from devout to extremely lapsed (me) and 6 of the 7 of us have biology related degrees. The exhibits themselves are actually very high quality--if you don't read the captions ;)  They refer to Voltaire as an "infidel philosopher"! There is an infuriating section with scary-looking red lighting displaying all the "wrongs" of society and how they are going to hell--homosexuality, abortion, etc.  My microbiologist brother-in-law almost had a coronary at their completely incorrect explanation of antibodies.  We took lots of pictures and had a ton of fun facepalming the "fact" boards.

 

If it gets to be too much, they also have a zip line and a petting zoo :)  And downtown Cincinnati is close by with plenty of stuff to do.  I hope you go!

[Satchels of gold]

Ok that's it, we must all rent a bus and go to the creation museum and then go see The Book of Mormon.

[bigskygirl]

Sorry to break in and interrupt the interesting gay and lesbian discussion and lets not forget the Creation Museum.

 

First of all, Wanderwoman, I wish one of us live closer to you to help out. You are an amazing woman and of course Miss Maisie is a smaller sweetheart copy of her mother. Sending you good thoughts, and full frontal hugs and small gentle hugs for the little baby who have won the heart of the posters on here.

 

I just got a call from the company where I will be getting my CPAP machine from. Luckily, I am getting patient assistance to pay hospital related bills, so I do not have to pay for the machine. There has been a dent to my ego and pride asking for help since I am not working due to being sick and miserable. And yes, I have been cranky to the point I do not think someone would want to be around me at times (I am surprise my husband and two cats have not run away from home yet.)

[Satchels of gold]

Wander you and Maisey are going to be fine. She has you for a mom and you will get through this.

Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children.

William Makepeace Thackeray

[Clemgo3165]

As a man, I don't think men are flexible. I like men and only men, and there's not a thing that I or anyone else could do to change that.

 

And I'm a woman who is into men, mostly. Though I'd cross over if Gloria Reuben ever expressed interest. I don't consider myself bi at all, I just have the one "girl crush." But sexuality is a very wide spectrum and while some are hard wired to be straight as an arrow, others are wired to be gay and only gay, and others land somewhere in the middle having some interest in both - and that goes for both men and women. A bisexual woman who chooses to be in a relationship with a woman is not a lesbian, she's still bisexual, the same way she'd be if she were in a relationship with a man. 

[emma675]

I love the twists and turns of the conversation in here and that it's such a civilized, educated group!

 

For the record, I am a straight woman, totally into men and never even thought sexually about another woman. There are days when I wish I was bisexual, it would open up the entire population as dating potential, lol! But seriously, I have gay friends and transgendered friends, and I feel so lucky I've always "known" who I was and felt comfortable in my own skin. LIfe is too short to pretend to be something or someone you're not. I've seen plenty of friends lose so many years of happiness trying to hide who they really were. It makes me so sad there are people out there who judge others for simply being different than them. I think if you're not hurting anyone, you should be free to be.

[galax-arena]

I just got a call from the company where I will be getting my CPAP machine from.

I initially read this as "CRAP machine." :-\

 

No one should feel embarrassed about needing help to pay for healthcare; medical costs here in the states can be insane! (I'm assuming most people here are from the states, because I'd like to think that the rest of the world has been spared the Duggars.)

If it gets to be too much, they also have a zip line and a petting zoo :)  And downtown Cincinnati is close by with plenty of stuff to do.  I hope you go!

Oh, trust me, I definitely want to go! And zip lines? I love zip lines! The only issue is that I live in NYC and so shelling out money for a plane ticket - unless I want to spend 15 hours on a bus - will cost 200-300 dollars. And then there'd be hotel costs on top of that. That's a lot of money to go see one whacked out museum. Still... it seems like THE whacked out museum to see.

 

My friend sounds less than enthusiastic about the plan; she just emailed me saying, "Ummm...so random." I'm going to need some way to convince her.

[Featherhat]

Well I'm in the UK, we have free health care but sometimes long waiting lists. It's worth having. I hope everything goes well for you.

I got pulled into the Duggar saga via a recommended youtube of "16 kids and pregnant again" (is that right?) and that was it, I fell down the rabbit hole. I was already on TWOP and they had the thread and boom. I couldn't believe it, it was a real eye opener. I belong to the Church of England which is for now the State Church of England (note not Scotland, Wales, N Ireland they have their own) and I've signed an official government document to that effect (electoral role).

But my church would empty if it tried to impose any of this OT legalistic nonsense on its congregation. I'd never even heard of "church discipline" "keep sweet" literally anything else they/their friends espoused. My Vicar would recommend sending Josh to a facility with actual psychologically trained staff with someone on the staff who could talk to him about his faith from a point of understanding.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Featherhat

[HundFan]

Zip lines at the Creationist Museum! Are they airborne versions of the "hell houses" fundamentalist churches stage on Halloween (the kind designed to scare nonbelievers shitless)?  Zip at break-neck speed through the fires of hell, ending safely in the arms of Jesus (picture wooden platform with giant squishy side-mounted hands). 

[Julia]

Well, if you can't get to the Creation Museum, you can always go to the Grand Canyon.

 

Me, I'm holding out until the gift shops recognize the Paul Bunyan origin theory.

[HundFan]

Well, if you can't get to the Creation Museum, you can always go to the Grand Canyon.

 

Me, I'm holding out until the gift shops recognize the Paul Bunyan origin theory.

So I read your post, but all I can remember from school is Paul Bunyan being a giant man wielding a giant ax. No connection in my mind to much beyond earth-shaking footsteps when he walks and a disposition toward demolishing trees.  Then I click on your link and am stunned I tell you at the vast array of stuff he supposed created! Including (but not limited to) The Bay Of Fundy!  Extra credit and hats off to you on this one! 

[Chaos Theory]

Very interesting and things that I believe and have actually said. This article put it in to words better than I could. The comments by the AA proponents reminded me of the comments that the Duggar lovers post to anyone who disagrees with them! I couldn't get through them, they made my head hurt. Magical thinking. It makes me want to scream. But in the case of alcholol addiction people are dieing and yet the addiction specialists shake their heads and blame the "disease" as if it were a living, breathing organism capable of being convincing and/or forcing people to the liquor store.

There is not just one way to do anything. I have known people who have tried other methods and fail miserably. AA may not work for you but to disparage it is offensive to all the people who have gotten help and for the record one of the major tenants of AA is "if it works, work it. "

[Satchels of gold]

There is not just one way to do anything. I have known people who have tried other methods and fail miserably. AA may not work for you but to disparage it is offensive to all the people who have gotten help and for the record one of the major tenants of AA is "if it works, work it. "

Not touching this debate with a ten foot pole but wanted to say the AA phrase is " it works ,if you work it"

[Julia]

So I read your post, but all I can remember from school is Paul Bunyan being a giant man wielding a giant ax. No connection in my mind to much beyond earth-shaking footsteps when he walks and a disposition toward demolishing trees.  Then I click on your link and am stunned I tell you at the vast array of stuff he supposed created! Including (but not limited to) The Bay Of Fundy!  Extra credit and hats off to you on this one! 

 

My favorite is the black hills being the grave site of his lesser ox, who died from excessive pancakes. 

[galax-arena]

Well I'm in the UK

I'm sorry that even the massive ocean between us wasn't enough to protect you from the Duggars. 

[JenCarroll]

I once heard a guy describe his sexual orientation as "Yes, please."

Edited August 28, 2015 by JenCarroll

[HundFan]

My favorite is the black hills being the grave site of his lesser ox, who died from excessive pancakes. 

Didn't know that either! But my fondness for maple syrup (and pancakes as a venue for same) has, on occasion, rendered me very close to becoming that lesser ox. (I'm so addicted to all things maple that my husband fed me a surprise maple bar at our wedding - in lieu of the traditional bite of marital cake.)

[zenme]

I really love those maple nut goodies candies.

[Featherhat]

I'm sorry that even the massive ocean between us wasn't enough to protect you from the Duggars.

Eh I have relatives and the internet, so it goes.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Featherhat

[bob.loblaw]

I initially read this as "CRAP machine." :-\

 

No one should feel embarrassed about needing help to pay for healthcare; medical costs here in the states can be insane! (I'm assuming most people here are from the states, because I'd like to think that the rest of the world has been spared the Duggars.)

 

Oh, trust me, I definitely want to go! And zip lines? I love zip lines! The only issue is that I live in NYC and so shelling out money for a plane ticket - unless I want to spend 15 hours on a bus - will cost 200-300 dollars. And then there'd be hotel costs on top of that. That's a lot of money to go see one whacked out museum. Still... it seems like THE whacked out museum to see.

 

My friend sounds less than enthusiastic about the plan; she just emailed me saying, "Ummm...so random." I'm going to need some way to convince her.

 

 

If you can swing a trip soon, you can come during Oktoberfest season and drown the fundy madness with awesome beer and really good food. Maybe that will help!  We're a German city, we know beer :)

 

Zip lines at the Creationist Museum! Are they airborne versions of the "hell houses" fundamentalist churches stage on Halloween (the kind designed to scare nonbelievers shitless)?  Zip at break-neck speed through the fires of hell, ending safely in the arms of Jesus (picture wooden platform with giant squishy side-mounted hands). 

 

LOL I wish!  For whatever reason I keep picturing Buddy Christ (from Dogma) as the Jesus at the end.

 

My favorite is the black hills being the grave site of his lesser ox, who died from excessive pancakes. 

 

Mental Floss is the best.  I never knew that.  Hilarious!

[NextIteration]

Words, meanings.

 

I tend to think of gender as fluid and sexuality as on a spectrum.  I have no idea if this is up to the current standard definitions and can easily see sexuality fluidity replacing spectrum.  I do believe that many of us older set and maybe the less thoughtful public at large confuse gender and sexuality altogether.

 

My daughter is bisexual but has been in a heterosexual relationship with her first love since she was 14.  She does attend an all women's college though and did have one incident of "cheating" being a little tipsy and kissing a girl she was attracted to who initiated it during a time that there was tension in her relationship.  There is once again big tension (separations are hard on a relationship, and when there is a conflict with no resolution in sight - even harder) and she's a mess getting ready to go back to college and a ball of worry about all the "opportunity" at her school.  Of course in this era, there is a good reason why the population at her school is largely lesbian, bisexual and transgender, it's a safe place for all that, as well as a place that provides opportunity for romance.  Sexuality had zero influence on her decision to go there, but a strong sense of feminism and politics did.

 

All that said, I'm as hetero normative as they come, lol.  And I think the way we've addressed things socially at this point is good - the sexuality established at birth meme because it does keep the LGBTQI community safe from all this pray away therapy.  I just hope in time that we can safely expand on it, because as I said I believe there is fluidity and spectrums that can be applied to gender, sexuality and even, I'm going to struggle for the word here but sexual desire?  Some of us just want a lot more of it than others as well.

 

Alcoholism as disease, or any addiction as disease.  I think in many people addiction is arrived at by some means of self-medicating an underlying mental illness or personality disorder.  This is just my opinion and not hard science.  We know far too little about brains at this point - but I think it has to do with neurotransmitters and brain chemistry.  At the half century mark, I'm pretty sure that I won't live to see this resolved.  But because of my opinion, I think first line therapy for addiction belongs in a medically backed facility and secondary after care belongs in a group therapy type situation with an accredited therapist.  As an adult child of alcoholics - I could never wrap my mind around AA because I am agnostic/atheist lite and always struggled with the issue of a "higher power" even though some just say it's themselves.

 

eta: grammar, mine is terrible but my there/their/they're type mistakes are just lack of automaticity and proofreading well.  And spell check doesn't cover grammar, ha!

Edited August 28, 2015 by NextIteration

[kalamac]

Spell check is terrible. I will, on occasion copy a completely correct piece of text into word, just to show someone how much of it ends up underlined, suggesting they change spellings, words or sentence structure, turning a perfect paragraph into something that makes no sense, to show them that spell check doesn't understand context, and they shouldn't just blindly believe it, and make adjustments without checking for themselves.

Edited August 28, 2015 by kalamac

[galax-arena]

If you can swing a trip soon, you can come during Oktoberfest season and drown the fundy madness with awesome beer and really good food. Maybe that will help!  We're a German city, we know beer :)

I just asked another friend if she'd be interested in going to the Creation Museum with me. She said she'd be up for it if she's ever in the midwest; she lives in LA with her husband, but the two travel to other states with some frequency, especially Indiana. She did express surprise that I'd want to go there, though. I don't know, I just find Bible Belt culture endlessly fascinating from a sociocultural perspective, because it's so far removed from my own upbringing. Even when I was going through my Southern Baptist phase in college, it was within the context of Los Angeles college life.

 

This probably means I won't be able to visit the museum until next summer, though. I know the husband likes to go to GenCon in Indianapolis each year. The friend doesn't like GenCon, so I could convince her to ditch that and drive to Kentucky with me. Because, you know, visiting the Creation Museum is so much better than going to a gaming convention. ;)

 

My friend's response when I told her that I didn't want to see the museum alone: "Why, afraid the creationists will eat you?" My friend fwiw is a devout Christian (and was the first person I came out to!) but I don't think she adheres to Ken Ham's brand of YEC. 

[bob.loblaw]

I just asked another friend if she'd be interested in going to the Creation Museum with me. She said she'd be up for it if she's ever in the midwest; she lives in LA with her husband, but the two travel to other states with some frequency, especially Indiana. She did express surprise that I'd want to go there, though. I don't know, I just find Bible Belt culture endlessly fascinating from a sociocultural perspective, because it's so far removed from my own upbringing. Even when I was going through my Southern Baptist phase in college, it was within the context of Los Angeles college life.

 

This probably means I won't be able to visit the museum until next summer, though. I know the husband likes to go to GenCon in Indianapolis each year. The friend doesn't like GenCon, so I could convince her to ditch that and drive to Kentucky with me. Because, you know, visiting the Creation Museum is so much better than going to a gaming convention. ;)

 

My friend's response when I told her that I didn't want to see the museum alone: "Why, afraid the creationists will eat you?" My friend fwiw is a devout Christian (and was the first person I came out to!) but I don't think she adheres to Ken Ham's brand of YEC. 

 

I'm with your friend there ;)  My husband is a gamer and I've always been fascinated by fringe cultures (Duggars, $cientologists, FLDS, etc), so to me the Creation Museum is a much more interesting choice.  

 

You definitely want a friend with you, it makes the snarking so much more fun!  All of us that went are Christian and are science nerds.  The only time we had a problem was when my brother-in-law's sister starting ranting loudly in front of a group of kids how this was all crap and kids need to learn science.  She's a bit passionate ;)

 

Last year, Ken Ham debated with Bill Nye about creationism at the museum.  I have to say, Ham has charisma, but he is absolutely batshit.  Bill Nye destroyed him.

Edited August 28, 2015 by bob.loblaw

[questionfear]

I am so sad I didn't go to the Creation Museum several years ago when I was in Cincinnati. I begged and begged Mrs QF but she didn't want to pay them $30 for both of us (or whatever it was).

 

When we got home and I complained to a friend about that, she pointed out they might have let me in for free if I explained I was a jewish lesbian looking to be saved. ;)

[Julia]

Didn't know that either! But my fondness for maple syrup (and pancakes as a venue for same) has, on occasion, rendered me very close to becoming that lesser ox. (I'm so addicted to all things maple that my husband fed me a surprise maple bar at our wedding - in lieu of the traditional bite of marital cake.)

I really love those maple nut goodies candies.

Ours was a hazelnut torte with chocolate mousse between the layers. But we keep maple candy and maple sugar in the freezer for spiritual emergencies...

[Happyfatchick]

I have to go back and read later when I'm not trying to do 50 things at once, but there may be a hint of good news with my daughter and SIL! It's not much, but it's a glimmer. She had a good friend in high school who went on to join the FBI. she is now a field agent for the FBI. I am in contact with her this very minute, we are texting. She's giving me sources and places to go. FINALLY! I may have some sort of action plan!!! Keep you posted!

Her out-of-country field work is Africa, so she doesn't "know" anyone in Central Am. But she's digging. Poor girl is at home nursing a kidney stone, babysitting our craziness while eating pain meds. I owe her...

Edited August 28, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[Love2dance]

When we got home and I complained to a friend about that, she pointed out they might have let me in for free if I explained I was a jewish lesbian looking to be saved. ;)

Thank you QUESTION FEAR. I needed a laugh so badly today and you gave it to me!

I have to go back and read later when I'm not trying to do 50 things at once, but there may be a hint of good news with my daughter and SIL! It's not much, but it's a glimmer. She had a good friend in high school who went on to join the FBI. she is now a field agent for the FBI. I am in contact with her this very minute, we are texting. She's giving me sources and places to go. FINALLY! I may have some sort of action plan!!! Keep you posted!

Her out-of-country field work is Africa, so she doesn't "know" anyone in Central Am. But she's digging. Poor girl is at home nursing a kidney stone, babysitting our craziness while eating pain meds. I owe her...

HAPPYFATCHICK, I am going to hope and hope and cross my fingers that there is some help for your daughter's situation to improve NOW!

Edited August 28, 2015 by Love2dance

[MarysWetBar]

I am just getting caught up here and wanted to send virtual hugs to wanderwoman and jellybeans ( 2 of my faves) and also readalot, all struggling right now.

I wish I had something constructive to add but I don't, other than that I have seen my fair share of pain and struggle in this life and can honestly tell you that you just have to keep going, one foot in front of the other. Fake it until you make it. Truly. 

I have lost my parents, only brother, and a son. Have survived a motor vehicle crash with a freight train that almost killed me, of all frigging things....and here I am.

Only sharing the gore so you understand that I have been there in that scary place where the only thing you can do is breathe in and out and then do it all over again.

Only do what has to be done, wanderwoman...take care of that precious babe that we all took into our hearts through your sharing her online here with us all.

Like HFC, I wish I could just chill with you..bring you something to eat that you didnt have to cook yourself...do some laundry for you..whatever makes your life a little easier right now.

Someone quoted Emerson up above and that has always been a  favourite quote of mine that I have gone to many times in my journey.

My best one that I actually framed following my accident was " In the depths of winter, I found within me an invincible summer." 

My wish for you all is to find your invincible summer...its in there; I promise.

Edited August 28, 2015 by MarysWetBar

[Wellfleet]

Spell check is terrible. I will, on occasion copy a completely correct piece of text into word, just to show someone how much of it ends up underlined, suggesting they change spellings, words or sentence structure, turning a perfect paragraph into something that makes no sense, to show them that spell check doesn't understand context, and they shouldn't just blindly believe it, and make adjustments without checking for themselves.

 

Amen to this - spellcheck is "stoopid." I've seen many posts - here and elsewhere - that are almost unintelligible, and I don't think they started that way, I think sometimes it's because people don't even realize their misspelled words are being "corrected" - incorrectly. There's no such thing as a former teacher, so I'll just [lovingly] say it. People, read your posts through BEFORE hitting the Send button. Or write your comment in a Pages or Word document and copy it to the webpage. End of soapbox.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Wellfleet

[HundFan]

Ours was a hazelnut torte with chocolate mousse between the layers. But we keep maple candy and maple sugar in the freezer for spiritual emergencies...

 

In the small town where I was raised, we only had access to Mrs. Butterworth's (not the real maple syrup I use today) - and to my mother's chagrin, I often drank a shot of the stuff in lieu of actual dessert. Even my friends knew. In fact, when I had my first blind date (with the unfortunate-looking brother of a fellow Rainbow Girl), the guy rang my doorbell, then left a bottle of Butterworth's as a surprise on my front porch. Unfortunately, the syrup proved to be the only good thing about that miserable evening. 

[zenme]

In the small town where I was raised, we only had access to Mrs. Butterworth's (not the real maple syrup I use today) - and to my mother's chagrin, I often drank a shot of the stuff in lieu of actual dessert. Even my friends knew. In fact, when I had my first blind date (with the unfortunate-looking brother of a fellow Rainbow Girl), the guy rang my doorbell, then left a bottle of Butterworth's as a surprise on my front porch. Unfortunately, the syrup proved to be the only good thing about that miserable evening.

 

HundFan, in all my years I've never heard of anyone who loves maple syrup as much as you do! You must be the one who purchases the maple scented lotions, and body washes I've seen.  Does your obsession extend to lotions and candles, or is it just the taste? 

 

HoneyFC, great news!

[Satchels of gold]

HFC give us the update with the FBI agent. I can't tell you how much I have thought about this and what I would do in your position. I am so hoping for a good outcome. And does anyone know what state wanderwomen lives in?

[Julia]

In the small town where I was raised, we only had access to Mrs. Butterworth's (not the real maple syrup I use today) - and to my mother's chagrin, I often drank a shot of the stuff in lieu of actual dessert. Even my friends knew. In fact, when I had my first blind date (with the unfortunate-looking brother of a fellow Rainbow Girl), the guy rang my doorbell, then left a bottle of Butterworth's as a surprise on my front porch. Unfortunately, the syrup proved to be the only good thing about that miserable evening. 

 

Ouch.

 

My father's dad's family came from Vermont. He had Definite Opinions about maple syrup. The real stuff wasn't good enough. It had to be the extra-chunky B-grade amber stuff they didnt' let leave the state because it didn't represent Vermont properly or some silly thing. Which of course meant we barely got it at all :(

[Liz Tudor]

I had no clue what REAL maple syrup was, as a Girl Raised In The South, until I met & married a carpet bagging Vermont Yankee. His family had a sugarbush (large stand of sugar maples) and the neighbors had a a sugar house (but no trees), so they always shared sap collection & boiling duties. On many visits, I've slogged through late March snow up to my hips to collect sap in 35 gallon garbage cans on a front end loader and boiled it down to make real syrup (which is a 24 hour operation for several weeks). He won't even let "that other stuff" in the house. His folks retired to Canada a while back (my MIL is Canadian) but they still have a "deal" with their former neighbors, and we still get a syrup supply every year!

[HundFan]

HundFan, in all my years I've never heard of anyone who loves maple syrup as much as you do! You must be the one who purchases the maple scented lotions, and body washes I've seen.  Does your obsession extend to lotions and candles, or is it just the taste? 

 

 

So far only food items with maple and its analogues: butterscotch anything, See's Bordeaux creams, dulce de leche ice cream. Bailey's Irish Cream Liqueur, I could go on. Aw, I've gone and embarrassed myself again, haven't I? 

[SometimesBites]

I had no clue what REAL maple syrup was, as a Girl Raised In The South, until I met & married a carpet bagging Vermont Yankee. His family had a sugarbush (large stand of sugar maples) and the neighbors had a a sugar house (but no trees), so they always shared sap collection & boiling duties. On many visits, I've slogged through late March snow up to my hips to collect sap in 35 gallon garbage cans on a front end loader and boiled it down to make real syrup (which is a 24 hour operation for several weeks). He won't even let "that other stuff" in the house. His folks retired to Canada a while back (my MIL is Canadian) but they still have a "deal" with their former neighbors, and we still get a syrup supply every year!

Jealous! I could drink the stuff straight from the jug...and it's mighty pricey here in the hinterlands of northernmost coastal California.

[MarysWetBar]

Can confirm the real maple syrup obsession. I'm Canadian and think enjoying else isn't even real syrup! Hubs eats it on rice even rather than soya sauce.

[zenme]

Well, damn.  I guess I'm having pancakes in the a.m. All this talk of maple syrup...

[Happyfatchick]

Ok, then, the update. I have the email addy of the Federal Police in Nicaragua. There is a website with the email Addie's of all the police districts except for 2-3. And wouldn't you KNOW, their district is one without email. So the FBI agent skipped over that entirely and got me the email for the top of the food chain as far as the police go. She's also given me an addy for the state department (ours) at the consulate there. It turns out that the FBI has no legit rep at the American embassy there, our FBI agent contact is in Panama. SHE has emailed that person, and they answered her straightaway that they were forwarding her information on to the appropriate people.

You may remember that the SIL is there, now, at the house they plan to rent in Nica. He posted a pic on FB this morning of the view from his porch. He's in a hammock, so there is a view of his toes, and beautiful mountains in the distance. He's holding a cup of coffee with the Bible in view on his chest.

He makes me SICK.

Someone up thread asked what state WW lives. If I'm not mistaken, she is in Colorado.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[Honeycocoa]

FBI stays within American borders for the most part. As my State Department friend used to say, "You want the other agency...."  ( starts with a C )

 

But hey, let's stick with the State Department for now, shall we?

 

My suggestion? Wait until your daughter and grandkids actually move- or are getting close to moving) and then describe the situation as  factually as you can , and send it to all the addresses you have, just to let them  know  about a potential problem

 

take good care!

.

[Wellfleet]

Ok, then, the update. I have the email addy of the Federal Police in Nicaragua. There is a website with the email Addie's of all the police districts except for 2-3. And wouldn't you KNOW, their district is one without email. So the FBI agent skipped over that entirely and got me the email for the top of the food chain as far as the police go. She's also given me an addy for the state department (ours) at the consulate there. It turns out that the FBI has no legit rep at the American embassy there, our FBI agent contact is in Panama. SHE has emailed that person, and they answered her straightaway that they were forwarding her information on to the appropriate people.

You may remember that the SIL is there, now, at the house they plan to rent in Nica. He posted a pic on FB this morning of the view from his porch. He's in a hammock, so there is a view of his toes, and beautiful mountains in the distance. He's holding a cup of coffee with the Bible in view on his chest.

He makes me SICK.

Someone up thread asked what state WW lives. If I'm not mistaken, she is in Colorado.

 

Good God, Happy - that SIL of yours really is beyond contempt. He must have been the King of the Narcissists on whatever planet he came from...

Well, damn.  I guess I'm having pancakes in the a.m. All this talk of maple syrup...

 

Give yourself a real treat - make a Monte Cristo. If you've never heard of it, it's basically stuffed French Toast, with the stuffing being ham and swiss. A light drooling of REAL Vermont maple syrup over the finished sandwich, piping hot, and you'll find your eyes rolling back in your head. 

[Happyfatchick]

All I can say is wow! Is there anyone you can talk to since your grandchildren will be in danger if they go with daddy no brains (best nickname I can think of at the time.)

  

I have strongly negative feelings about missionary work that I won't get into here because they're sort of beside the point, but if it's any consolation at all, I--as a single woman with no male companion--lived in Nicaragua for about 6 months and did a lot of charity work while I was there.  It's really not that bad.  Is it more dangerous than the US?  Yes.  Is there a high likelihood of death or dismemberment?  No.  It's a "don't be dumb" rule.  Don't walk around alone after dark if you're a woman, don't wear jewelry, don't turn down deserted streets you don't know anything about, don't talk to strange me on buses.  

 

I had 0 problems.  The only person I knew who did have one was someone who made the bad decision to walk the same way to work through a poor neighborhood every day and then the doubly bad decision to stop and chat with someone for 15 minutes one day before heading on his way.  And all that happened to him is that he got his iPod (which he shouldn't have been carrying), passport (which he shouldn't have been carrying) and wallet stolen.  They actually recovered the passport once he told the police he was American.  (He's Asian-American, and the police didn't immediately realize he was a US citizen and were less motivated to help him before they found out).

 

Further to this point, while I realize this is not super-reassuring, most people intent on doing serious harm would REALLY rather not fuck with Americans because the American consulate WILL come down on your government to come get you.  Killing Americans is a pretty good way to get your nice little commercial enterprise that had been operating freely with only occasional payoffs to the local police shut down with the full wrath of the armed military.

 

I'm sorry your family is leaving, and I'm not trying to minimize that or question your questioning of it.  I don't know them (or you).  Just saying I really wouldn't spend nights up all night thinking they're going to get killed.  

 

You're much more likely to get kidnapped and taken to the ATM to empty your account than you are to be raped or murdered.  Not that being robbed is pleasant or okay.  But it's better than being raped or murdered.

Big sky, I have PLENTY of names for him - in fact, the whole family generally calls him shitforbrains when he's not around. I'll be happy to supply you with some any time.

Rancide: (spellcheck doesn't like your name at all...). My son in law (who's name, unfortunately for him, is Josh) is ADHD. He's never finished a project in his life that I recall (and I've known him a good long time). He's ADHD, BI-polar, narcissistic and a little psychoterrorist. We have actual no-joke diagnoses for most of that, and real live up close evidence of the rest. My daughter, meanwhile, makes Jill Duggar look like Charro. (Remember her?).

Currently, we live in a fairly rural area of Georgia, between Atlanta and Macon. When I say "we", I mean all of us. I have 3 grown children and they all live within 3 miles of me. So does my mother and one of my brothers, and my grandchildren's other grandparents. Those children (oldest is 13) have NEVER lived where they don't know the people around them. They don't know or understand "don't be stupid" rules. Unfortunately for them, truly being cautious and aware of your surroundings at all times has never been part of their upbringing. The kids (not just hers, but all of my grands) are community children. We share them all around. My daughter never locks her own doors. We lock our own doors when we sleep but during the day (even when we leave). I'm not sure I own a key to my own house. My sons are both door lockers, but literally everybody knows where the keys hide outside. We are in and out of each other's homes all day long. To say these kids have been raised in a safe environment is a gross understatement.

That said, it's not the surroundings or even the possibilities of harm to the children that worries me most, although it does fill me with dread.

The things that keeps me up at night is the crazy man driving the bus. My SIL TERRIFIES me. He's impulsive, impetuous, irresponsible, immature, unregulated, unmedicated, unpredictable, disorganized, useless. He's never been capable of keeping a job for any length of time - they've been married 16 years and I believe just under a year in a job is his record. He's flashy and charismatic, and he'd lie sooner than tell the truth. He's crazy as a bat. He's a con man.

Oh, I know I sound like a bitter grandma who's pissy because her grands are leaving the country (and I AM!!!!!). But I'm far more bitter, worried, and a little crazy myself of what he will DO, how he will act, what harm will he bring to their doorstep when there aren't 50 family members looking? And I will admit: the thought of my wisp of a daughter trying to keep four children in her sites at all times is just plain frightening.

I'm sorry if this reads like I'm all defensive - but I guess I am. But then, I have history to back me up.