S29.E09: Gettin' To Crunch Time

[riley702]

But hey, it's Survivor, baby! If you can't handle lying and manipulation, don't come on the show!

 

As long as they also know that they must handle the reactions to their lying and manipulation, I'm good with this. People have a right to get pissed at being played; if someone thinks they can do whatever they want without repercussions, that's not good play at all.

I really don't give a damn who goes through whose stuff. You don't want someone knowing you have an idol, then either make sure it's in your pocket at all times or bury it somewhere. It's not like this doesn't happen all the time. And even Jon was smart enough to burn the paper that comes with the idol - which, by the way, proves a point I made earlier: the next time someone tries to parlay a fake idol, whoever they're trying to fool need only ask to see the certificate of authenticity. Anyone can make a fake idol, even if it's "just a stick." Nobody can fake the scroll with the rules on it. 

If Keith were just a wee bit smarter, I could buy him keeping the paper to wrap around a fake idol. That could be a sweet move, but so far, no one has done that. I think. Yau Man's fake idol didn't come wrapped in official instructions, did it?

Christian, child star, The Facts of Life, four eyebrows by day 33... Lisa Whelchel.  I hated her constant confessionals.

Me, too. I couldn't stand her constant bleating of how guilty she felt for her actions in her THs, especially when she sure didn't seem to have any problems actually doing them. I felt the THs were to "manage" people not liking her instead of actual feelings of guilt. I would have liked her much better if she'd simply owned up to her game-play. I also didn't buy that she was simply being helpful by doing other people's laundry. I think that was just the excuse she came up with so she could go snooping and blab about anything she found. Which she did, expressions of "guilt" notwithstanding.

 

We know Reed went through Keith's bag deliberately because he admitted to it. But if he had tripped over something and knocked Keith's bag over causing all of its contents to fall out, he might have learned the same information accidentally and there wouldn't be anything that could be done about it. And if you make the concession that people shouldn't be punished for accidentally discovering something (which I think most people would agree is fair), you have to allow for them to find stuff out in less savory ways. Otherwise, the producers would have to make judgments about whether or not a discovery was truly an accident or whether the contestant in question merely tried to make it look like one and would have to decide whether or not to throw the contestant out of the game on the back of that, which seems far more complicated (and with the potential to open the door for lawsuits and more claims of producer interference) than the current system.

I think you're making deciding intent needlessly complicated. If someone tripped and made someone else fall, breaking their leg, it would be different from someone deliberately making someone fall and breaking their leg. We don't just say, "Well, because someone might pretend it was an accident when it really wasn't, we should just make breaking someone else's leg fair game to avoid either someone getting away with it or being unjustly accused of intentionally breaking someone's leg." I don't think that's why TPTB have decided that going thru someone's things is allowable.

[millennium]

The license to rifle through other people's belongings is always in play; however, only a bottom-feeder would pull that kind of stunt.  

 

Meet Reed, bottom-feeder.

[Pattycake2]

Meet Reed, bottom-feeder.

 

 

Meet Reed, student of the game.    And YAY for that!   And from the latest preview, Keith, Wes, and Alec are right back with him as soon as they get back to camp.  

Edited November 21, 2014 by Pattycake2

[Shelby]

On Exile Island, those crabs scurrying around at night seem like they would have made sleep impossible.

Wouldn't up high, on the flat area of that mini mountain, where the HII was have been a good place to sleep?

[Ms Blue Jay]

I would rather, 5000 times rather, watch a bunch of recruits playing sloppy than two superfans flip a fucking coin for an idol at the auction when one of them already has the Tyler Perry bullshit idol.

 

This cast was recruited?  That surprises me.  I often like the recruited casts, like Cook Islands and Fiji, easily two of my favourite casts of all time.  Wasn't Cagayan recruits?  I assume Spencer applied on his own but how did they find all the brainy, brawny, or beauty people?  Those people all applied on their own?  I still say that this season's cast has got to be in my 3 least favourite of all time.

 

How many people thought Brenda was an entitled princess (like they think Jaclyn is now, apparently, for wanting to get some basic respect?) for not scrambling?

 

I have no problem with Jaclyn wanting basic respect.  But I don't think she's at all savvy.  If someone doesn't kiss your ass when you believe they should and that angers you, that's totally your prerogative.  But why not just quietly feel angry about it and exact revenge later?  Instead, she screams to everyone at tribal council that she's flummoxed over nobody kissing her ass.  She's acting like a child and I find it very irritating.  Also, what if Wes/Keith/Alec just plain don't like Jaclyn or know how to socialize with her?  That's their prerogative too.  You can't scream at people to get them to like you, approach you, or treat you nicer.  It's a game.  Exact revenge the way you want later.  Until it's revealed that her screaming at tribal council is some sort of genius strategy that plays out later somehow and blows me away, I'll find it annoying.

 

I did not at all find Brenda to be an entitled princess for not scrambling.  I also don't get the analogy.  Jaclyn is in the opposite position of Brenda.  Nobody in this cast expects Jaclyn to scramble and nobody resents her for not doing it.  They just leave her be and hardly seem to think about getting rid of her, or think about her at all.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Ms Blue Jay

[cooksdelight]

This cast was recruited? That surprises me.

It happens every season. Athletes, people on the fringe of Hollywood or Broadway, professional gambler, models, beauty queens, etc.

[truthaboutluv]

I did not at all find Brenda to be an entitled princess for not scrambling.  I also don't get the analogy.  Jaclyn is in the opposite position of Brenda.  Nobody in this cast expects Jaclyn to scramble and nobody resents her for not doing it.  They just leave her be and hardly seem to think about getting rid of her, or think about her at all.

 

 

I think the analogy was saying that when Brenda did almost no scrambling, she was judged by viewers and even Probst I remember said something to her at Tribal like, "so do you think you're too good to beg to stay in the game" and so that's what Jaclyn was saying to Keith and Wes. That they were the ones who needed her votes, they were the ones who needed to scramble and still they couldn't even be bothered to talk to her and acknowledge her.

 

So in other words, that even for a chance to stay in the game, talking to a woman was beneath them. Which is when Missy or Natalie (not sure) came in to explain to Keith and Wes that that's what Jaclyn was trying to say, that they don't even talk to and acknowledge the women in the tribe and Keith mentioned talking to Missy and I think Wes mentioned talking to Natalie and then he stated that Jaclyn herself never spoke to him. 

 

I do think it's interesting to know for sure, particularly when Jaclyn was at the bottom of things at original Coyopa, if she ever approached Wes and others to try and save herself because that was never shown. She was all but invisible at that point in the game. Because if she didn't, I can further understand Wes' argument that look, you never had much to say to me anymore than I had to say to you. Yes Survivor is a social game so I'm not saying Wes' play is not dumb but I can understand his sentiment in that sometimes some people just don't connect on any level.

[iMonrey]

I'm starting to think that Jon has a sort of hair-trigger personality and can be easily persuaded by others. He was originally aligned with Jeremy but was pretty easily talked into joining the Josh and Reed alliance, and then, just as easily talked out of it by Jaclyn, afterwards calling it a "no-brainer" despite having changed his mind about it, twice. 

 

Also, the fact that Jeremy thought he could get him to confess to having the idol because "Jon is a terrible liar" probably indicates Jon is a terrible strategist, as well. I still don't know what involvement he had, in any, in the decision to send Jeremy to Exile Island, but once he realized the implications he really panicked and flipped allies yet again. 

 

It's strange, because on the one hand he seems to understand the game enough to demonstrate he's watched the show before, and understood flipping to the opposite alliance means being at the bottom of that totem pole, but that should make him even more aware that flip-flopping back and forth will make him untrustworthy to everyone. 

[iMonrey]

Jon was the first to go to Exile post-merge, which is the first time an idol was hidden there. So there wasn't any way to pretend someone had found it before him; the clues pre-merge indicated the idols were hidden back at camp. Jeremy knew that too because he'd been to Exile pre-merge. Jon's only defense was to pretend he hadn't found it either, but he knew Jeremy didn't believe him.

[Pattycake2]

Reed and Josh were not recruited.  In one of the show videos, Reed said they applied separately.  When Reed got the call, he was asked if he had a loved one and when he mentioned Josh, the show said that was amazing because they were going to follow up with Josh next.  The show had no idea they were a couple.  I bet Rocker was recruited though.

[peachmangosteen]

Rocker Julie was most definitely recruited. I assume Natalie/Nadiya were as well.

[jaync]

Jeremy's body.

[SHOgirl]

Jeremy's body.

Right on.

[Nashville]

Even while Jon was making the point about Keith always just referring to Jon, Keith kept only referring to Jon.  "Why would I bother talking to Jaclyn?  I'd already recruited them by talking to Jon."  Keith, that is exactly their point.  You didn't successfully recruit them because you just assumed Jaclyn follows Jon 100%, no matter what, regardless of you guys insulting her.

In that case, isn't the validity of "their point" almost totally dependent upon how Jon represented his and Jaclyn's relationship/alliance potential in talks with Keith?

To illustrate what I mean, let's say Keith is working on recruiting J&J - and in the process Jon says to Keith, "Okay, Jaclyn and I are good with that arrangement". This immediately raises several questions - some of them of the red-flag variety:

• Is Jon's representation of him and Jaclyn as a "package deal" valid and accurate? Everything we've seen thus far would seem to indicate so.
• Is Jon's portrayal of himself to Keith as "package representative" valid and accurate? I don't know the answer to this, as the answer is dependent upon Jon - and Jaclyn - and what they've agreed upon. If Jon has told Jaclyn about Keith making alliance overtures and Jaclyn tells Jon, "Go work whatever deal you can, and I'll be ok with it" - then Jaclyn has absolutely no grounds to fuss about not being approached separately from Jon. If Jaclyn didn't make such a statement, then the onus is on Jon for misrepresentation.
• If Keith and John agree on a "package deal", does Keith still have a responsibility to touch base with Jaclyn? Actually, I would say the converse applies. If Keith approaches Jaclyn after striking a deal with Jon, Jon may see that as an indication of mistrust - which puts or increases a target on Keith's back.

All this, of course, being based upon the original postulate of Jon originally presenting himself and Jaclyn as a package deal; if Jon didn't, then Keith was foolish for NOT following up with Jaclyn independently.

[neece26]

Rocker said he was asked to do the show several times but this was the first season it worked out.  

 

 

I kind of wonder if when they mention someone not talking to them they mean "at all" or "talk game".  It seems like if I was stuck with a small group of people 24/7, I'd talk to all of them, out of sheer boredom, if nothing else.

 

It makes sense that they wouldn't talk game to her to solidify her vote because Jon said they poured it on really thick that they were voting with the guys.  I'm looking forward to either Jon or Jaclyn going home.  I'm pretty sick of both of them.

[ByaNose]

They all seemed to enjoy competing with each other with a smile and a laugh. The only contentious battle was Missy & Baylor. I think Baylor was thrilled to beat Missy twice without even falling in and getting muddy.

[KimberStormer]

Ms Blue Jay, sorry, I was mixing a bunch of things together in a confusing way.

 

1. Someone asked if the cast was recruited, because they play so badly; I was just saying I don't mind recruits or sloppy play.  I think it's a mix of applicants and recruits this season, as it usually is.

2. I was defending Reed's looking through the bag as an example of doing everything you can possibly do to stay in the game, which I think is both required to make a fair and good game and also entertaining TV.

3. Reed getting criticized for scrambling reminded me of Brenda getting criticized for not scrambling, and that reminded me, as a totally unrelated aside that I should have put in its own paragraph, that I thought Jaclyn was getting criticized for what I saw as a simple request for basic respect--that is, not assuming she's just Jon's plus-one, but a player in her own right.

 

Anyway it was a confusing badly worded post and it's my fault if people got mixed up by it so I'm sorry.

 

Wouldn't it be great if Jaclyn showed that she was indeed her own player by voting out Jon next week?  One two three big boys out in order post-merge?

[BK1978]

They all seemed to enjoy competing with each other with a smile and a laugh. The only contentious battle was Missy & Baylor. I think Baylor was thrilled to beat Missy twice without even falling in and getting muddy.

 

I think Missy threw the challenge to Baylor both times.  It just did not seem to me that Missy put that much effort into that challenge. 

[viajero]

I think Missy threw the challenge to Baylor both times.  It just did not seem to me that Missy put that much effort into that challenge.

 

 

I didn't see that at all, so I went back and watched their battles in case I had missed something.  I really don't think she threw those battles, particularly not the second one.  Baylor made it look relatively easy because she had clearly figured out what she needed to do to win and set about doing it.  Baylor is no slouch when it comes to these challenges.  While Baylor is not very strong or athletic, she benefits from taking a calm methodological approach and never losing her cool.  Her win in the IC was a perfect example of where this paid off.

 

I have no problem with Jaclyn wanting basic respect.  But I don't think she's at all savvy.  If someone doesn't kiss your ass when you believe they should and that angers you, that's totally your prerogative.  But why not just quietly feel angry about it and exact revenge later?  Instead, she screams to everyone at tribal council that she's flummoxed over nobody kissing her ass.  She's acting like a child and I find it very irritating.  Also, what if Wes/Keith/Alec just plain don't like Jaclyn or know how to socialize with her?  That's their prerogative too.  You can't scream at people to get them to like you, approach you, or treat you nicer.  It's a game.  Exact revenge the way you want later.  Until it's revealed that her screaming at tribal council is some sort of genius strategy that plays out later somehow and blows me away, I'll find it annoying.

 

Didn't Jaclyn do exactly what you suggest in the previous episode?  Rather than reacting by confronting the guys on the spot, she calmly took her revenge later by voting out the leader of their alliance.  Of course she explained it when asked in TC for a reason for her vote, but I didn't see any screaming on her part.  Plus, it was pretty clear in this last TC that pretty much all the other women also felt slighted by some of the men.

[allthatglitters]

I'm not sure that is has been accepted all along.  I was sure that this was really verboten when the show started, along with stealing things and making personal threats.  We've seen stealing many times now and even the odd direct threat (which was dealt with by production, albeit not exactly swiftly). 

 

If it is was forbidden before but allowed now, I can see why.  It does add something to the mix, but I remain convinced that such acts have to be cleared first.  Going though other folk's stuff is just too good a move to simply do every now and then - I'd be searching every chance I got.  I mean why not?  You might find something game-changing.  

 

Along those lines, why did that guy with the idol (bad with names, old guy) keep the farking clue? He knew it was tantamount to announcing that he probably has an idol (which paints a target on him) so why not throw it away?  It's things like this that make me wonder what's really going behind the scenes.

 

 

Rupert may have been the first Survivor thief, but going through someone's bag dates all the way back to S2, when Tina rifled through Kel's bag during beef jerky-gate. She mentioned it as the moment she most regretted in the game during FTC.

 

Wasn't Rupert's first season the Pirate theme? I remember thinking, damn you can't just steal from the other tribes stuff, until I thought about it fitting in with the Pirate theme. I don't think they ever allowed thievery before that.  So I figured it was a one-off.  I'm shocked that Reed was allowed to not only rifle through Keith's stuff but then pilfer the clue note.  Of course stupid stupid stupid to save the clue note like some kind of trophy in your bag. Even dumb nuts Jon knew enough to burn it. But if they had only even allowed the rummaging though the bag, but no theft, then it would have or could have made a big difference in the outcome as Jaclyn, Missy, Jon would have had to take Reed on his word of what he saw, which they would have had every reason to doubt.

 

So all this time, through the seasons, every time some player leaves his bag to take a dip, or just walks away from their bag for a second, anyone could look through anyone elses personal bag and even steal from it? That's a new one to me.  I think the rule should be that you can only look into someones bag and see whatever the other player is stupid enough to leave showing. Like storage wars, you can look but you can't go in or touch. If the other player is dumb or absent minded enough to leave something exposed then they get what they deserve.

 

As far as rooting for a winner. I agree there's no clear standout to cheer for. Its more about who is the least distasteful at the moment. For me its Natalie. I didn't like her at the beginning, but whether its all in the editing, she has become the least offensive. Same with Jeremy, but he's gone now. But one thing about that is I don't really give a beach crabs ass about who wins challenges, or gets voted out so I'm not emotionally saddened by any results either. I can concentrate on enjoying strictly the game play. So there's that.

[BigRedCheese]

 

So all this time, through the seasons, every time some player leaves his bag to take a dip, or just walks away from their bag for a second, anyone could look through anyone elses personal bag and even steal from it? That's a new one to me.

 

I don't know how long you've been watching, but it doesn't seem like anything new to me. The first time I remember someone digging through someone's bag to see if they had the idol was when two guys discovered Yau Man's idol that way. I think before that, it was probably just assumed that it was against the rules, but it happens so often now, with no repercussions, that it's pretty much just part of the game, if somebody is willing to go there. I don't like it either, and I like to think I would be better than that if I was on the show, probably why I'm not Survivor material, well, one of the many reasons. Of course, Russell Hantz took it to a whole new level by stealing personal items and destroying them, and he is beloved by the producers, so this kind of behavior seems to be encouraged, if not directly, then indirectly.

 

I think quitting the game is another thing that people probably assumed they would be sued for if they did it, then Osten went there, and nothing happened, now it's all too common. 

[KimberStormer]

It seems to me that Rupert didn't so much steal the other tribes' shoes as hide them during a challenge?  I got the impression the show had no rule in place regarding hiding other's items at the time, so they allowed it.  And this is all pure conjecture but I suspect that after that they added a rule that you can't hide peoples' apparel during challenges, or possibly ever.  

 

Or maybe not.. the subsequent times people messed with others' apparel seemed to also be mostly not theft but just taking things temporarily--like the Italian loafers getting dunked, Russell's hat got hidden from him for a time didn't it?  Someone's socks got hidden?  Or were those latter two outright thefts?  

 

Nope, Rupert stole them and then sold them!  Russell burned socks, Sandra burned Russell's hat.  By now I think people ought to know that they shouldn't bring anything to Survivor that they don't want to lose. 

 

In any case the thing in question here is the idol rules, which is not anyone's personal property, and hey, maybe Reed wanted to just take them temporarily and put them back, but didn't get a chance.  In my mind it's well-established that you can steal and destroy people's clothes, but I do think that sucks and is a jerky move, even though in all three cases I mention, it was ostensibly for some game advantage (Rupert helping his tribe, Russell undermining his tribemate for control, Sandra psyching Russell out before FTC).  Stealing an idol clue or rules, on the other hand, is competely morally neutral to me; I sort of can't imagine why people would get mad about it.  Not only is it a pure game move, but it's purely game pieces--an idol clue/rulesheet has no sentimental or personal meaning outside the game, no relevance to physical comfort/health/safety, it's a game thing and only a game thing.  Reed's move here was like the least real-life harm out of all these various thefts, which in Rupert's and Sandra's cases, at least, got mostly delighted reactions.  And I'm sure there were plenty of people who loved Russell's sock burning as well.

Edited November 23, 2014 by KimberStormer

[KaveDweller]

It seems to me that Rupert didn't so much steal the other tribes' shoes as hide them during a challenge?  I got the impression the show had no rule in place regarding hiding other's items at the time, so they allowed it.

 

I think it's right that there was no rule.  I vaguely remember an interview with Jeff back then about how they never expected that, but were delighted that it fit so well in the pirate theme.

 

I don't have a problem with looking through people's bags for an idol, but I do have an issue with stealing.  And I don't even know why Reed took the note because it gave it away to Keith that he knew about the idol.  I think everyone would have believed him about just seeing the note.

[fishcakes]

I like the rule about not being able to destroy the camp. I've always hated the final two setting fire to the camp before leaving for FTC, but I can't remember now which season was the last time they did that.

[henripootel]

I like the rule about not being able to destroy the camp. I've always hated the final two setting fire to the camp before leaving for FTC, but I can't remember now which season was the last time they did that.

I always liked that part, the burning of now-empty camp.  My guess is that they don't do that when they're filming in areas that don't allow that kinda thing.  Pretty sure the rules about not destroying camp refer to destruction while folks are still using it.  Understandable as it could easily cause harm, but we have seen some folks destroying some parts of camp (depending on how you define it).  Tossing communal food in the fire - we've seen that and it should count, if you ask me.  

[KimberStormer]

I'm surprised there are no rules on using sex to curry game favor.  We haven't seen much obvious 'couple going off into the woods for nookie' scenes since season 1.  I figured since that hasn't really reoccurred, nor has much outright nudity, they probably decided to nix that stuff after season 1 but maybe not.  

 

Amanda and Ozzy?  Romber perhaps?

[truthaboutluv]

Rob and Amber were both adamant that nothing but kissing ever happened between them while competing on the show and call me crazy, but I actually believe them. 

Edited November 25, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[BarneySays]

Jeremy's big mouth got him in trouble for the last time.  I imagine John (reasonably) thought he was going to get the Rocker treatment and nipped it in the bud.  I don't think it was a smart move for this point in time and it harms John's chances to win, but he's not sharp enough (well, the back of his head, forehead, and chin are) to realize that.  I sense either a very bitter jury or a completely checked out one.  It would only be fitting for this tedious season of dullards.

[KaveDweller]

I'm surprised there are no rules on using sex to curry game favor.

 

The producers would probably love if sex became a factor.  It's more interesting TV.

[Nashville]

You'd think.  I wonder if they became more sensitive to potential lawsuits after Sue Hawk's complaints of sexual harrassment.  

 

Yes, because we all know how much more seriously sexual harrassment complaints are taken when a straight woman makes one against a gay man....    :P

[Miss Scarlet]

I feel like a broken record because I said the same thing last week, but I never liked Jon/Jaclyn. They have this constant need to show everyone that they are, in fact, the hottest couple around. It's self-indulgent and nauseating. I feel sorry for the other contestants that have the live on the island with them and constantly be around their PDA. I'm sure Jaclyn is entitled in general, but having said, I don't think her point about the Josh alliance not coming to talk to her is completely unreasonable. It depends what she meant by it though. If she meant that they should carry her around on a throne and kiss her feet, then that's unreasonable. If she meant that she wanted to be included in their strategy discussions and asked for her opinion, that's fine. It was stupid of that alliance to treat her poorly and she is right, to a certain extent, that when they're trying to gain favour with her, they should be the ones initiating conversation with her and not the other way around. The way she acted to incredibly offended and indignant about it does suggest that it bothered her more on a personal level, which I understand if it was because she was upset by their misogyny.

 

It kind of amazes me to see that Jaclyn's even in such a good position. She was such a non-entity before the swap. She got incredibly lucky with the swap and with the merge. I saw on reddit that some people were saying that Jon/Jaclyn always have people wanting their votes and sucking up to them because they're both so attractive. I don't think that has anything to do with it. I think that happens because they end up as the swing votes and I think they end up as the swing votes because (until this week)  they're so bland and personality-less that they hadn't made anyone angry, but they also hadn't formed very close bonds with anyone else. Whereas there are very clear divisions between the other two alliances and they are both comprised of people that cannot get along with and will not work with players in the other alliance.

 

I think it was too soon for them and Missy/Baylor to turn on Jeremy. There would have been enough time to get him out after they got down to the final 6. I also don't think that this was necessarily a smart move for Missy, but she is playing the game hard. She is putting together alliance, getting information, making critical decisions and making moves. It's unfortunate that here will be no recognition of that because she's a female who's over 40. I'm saying all of this and I don't even like her, but just think her gameplay deserves to be recognized.

 

There's no one to really root for. I don't care for any of these people. I think the only reason that I'm sort of liking Natalie and that other people are rooting for her is really because we haven't heard her speak for several episodes.

[seacliffsal]

I think that part of why this blindside blindsided some of us is that the dominant alliance didn't really have a big margin of votes over the non-dominant alliance.  We've seen alliances turn on themselves before, but usually there's a more comfortable margin of votes.  Especially as the dominant alliance surprised not only Jeremy but Natalie as well.  If Natalie and Reed join with the Keith alliance Missy, Baylor, Jon and Jacqlyn went from running the game to being voted out.  We shall see...the season got really interesting.

[Nashville]

Maybe just a case of too much time on my hands, but I'm wondering if this might not be a strategy play by J&J.

At this point in the game there are two next-to even alliances, and which one's in power pretty much depends upon who J&J decide to vote with on a given week.

I'm wondering if that's their plan - to keep flipping, and whittling down the two primary alliances.

This also discourages anyone from either of the other two alliances from trying to break up the pair, because each respective alliance needs that two person voting bloc to swing TC - and to attack it by evicting one J would cement the remaining J firmly with the opposing alliance.

Theoretically, this could work right up to the vote which determines F5.  Maybe F4 even, if the primary alliance doofuses are determined - and stupid - enough to keep sniping at each other until only a single member of each remains.