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Current Plots Discussion: Actually Today's Episode


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Finally mostly caught up on this show! I don't love or even like all the s/l but it is watchable. One major thing I will give Ron credit for is addressing one of the major pet peeves I have had with the show for years and years. At least now most of the characters have motives for the things that they do. Sure they may have laid it on a bit thick and unrelentingly with Gabi but it makes sense why she hates her former best friend Abby. I am also liking the pacing and how story seems to be dovetailing. For instance, how the Brady blackmails Nicole story went away for a while, but was unearthed initialing by Xander (a wild card), went away for a minute and came into play because of the custody battle. Now there is a real chance of it getting out because of Jennifer's digging and frankly, so many people now knowing about it. 

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The Ted lawyer is more interesting then he is.

Yes, he is. I found myself wishing that Gilles had been cast as StefaNO instead, but than figured out that it probably wouldn't be that much better. As soon as he started uttering phrases like Gabby with a 'y', Gabby is real to me, Gabby is a part of Abby or part of you loves me, I'd probably dislike him almost as much as I dislike Tyler in the role. Almost, because at least Gilles is prettier to look at. LOL. Oh and so as not to appear as a totally superficial bitch, I like his acting too!  

Kate digging into Abby's ass giving her the business is what my life has been missing. More of that show!

Gabi is really the most watchable actor right now for me. Not a fan of the storyline but Gabi is truly coming into her own and spitting nothing but absolute truth. I felt sorry for Chad for a minute but Gabi is absolutely right. Chad has been enabling Abby. He made me positively ragey when after what likely amounts to 1.5 Salem weeks in therapy to integrate the alters (another phrase that needs to die) he is suggesting that he and Abby have a baby because yes, I can't think of anything less physically and mentally taxing and stressful for a woman fighting mental health than pregnancy and a newborn. Lets all hope she doesn't form a Casey Anthony or Andrea Yates alter. 

Question: Can they even be considered alters if they are just interpretations of people Abby knows? Sounds and played more like a bad improv class. 

Frankly, I am disgusted by this rape baby mess. I knew it was coming as soon as they had Gabby and Stefan actually sleep together. I knew it! The thought of Stefan coming around and touching Abby's stomach (and she just letting him), wanting parental rights and getting them makes me want to retch. Him crowing all over town that his rape bore fruit makes me want to retch. I just feel this is all leading towards something between those 2, especially with you know who returning -she is the queen of mixed signals.  and I am not here for it. 

I don't see how Gabi's plan of never letting the truth get out ever really hurts Stefan. I thought the point was to let him bond and love the child and then rip his heart out with the truth?

I am okay with Ben returning but I have no problem with him being treated as the serial killing pariah that he is by all. 

Edited by islandgal140
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40 minutes ago, islandgal140 said:

Frankly, I am disgusted by this rape baby mess. I knew it was coming as soon as they had Gabby and Stefan actually sleep together. I knew it! The thought of Stefan coming around and touching Abby's stomach (and she just letting him), wanting parental rights and getting them makes me want to retch. Him crowing all over town that his rape bore fruit makes me want to retch. I just feel this is all leading towards something between those 2, especially with you know who returning -she is the queen of mixed signals.  and I am not here for it. 

Sadly, in real life, rapists have parental rights over a child that was conceived through a sexual assault. As disgusting at it was to see him touching Abigail's stomach to feel the baby's kick, he does have rights. 

Chad is a dumbass for not being there for his wife. I despise Abigail, but, that is what marriage is about.. He is making it all about him and his needs. I think that the true story should have been a custody battle between Chabby and Stefan. It could have been like when Kim and Shane were battling Victor over Andrew.  Kim refused to give Andrew Victor's last name. Even Bo offered to become Victor's son in exchange for  Andrew remaining with Kim and Shane. That was a great story and it was so satisfying to see Victor lose spectacularly when he found out that Shane was the father. Villains used to get theirs back in the day, now they get rewarded..

Edited by Apprentice79
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I think they've been doing an okay job with his rehabilitation, and I get that this was his reaction because he's falling in wuv with Ciara, but Ben shading Tripp for what happened with Claire was not cute, IMO.

1 hour ago, Apprentice79 said:

Chad is a dumbass for not being there for his wife. I despise Abigail, but, that is what marriage is about.

I disagree, I think it's realistic that Chad is struggling to process this and needed some time.  Him being all, "Sounds super neat-o to me!" the minute this happened would not have been, and would also have been bad soap.

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20 minutes ago, TeeVee329 said:

I think they've been doing an okay job with his rehabilitation, and I get that this was his reaction because he's falling in wuv with Ciara, but Ben shading Tripp for what happened with Claire was not cute, IMO.

I disagree, I think it's realistic that Chad is struggling to process this and needed some time.  Him being all, "Sounds super neat-o to me!" the minute this happened would not have been, and would also have been bad soap.

Shane struggled with Kim's pregnancy and Kim cheated on him with Victor in Miami.  Whereas, Abigail was raped. In her right mind, she never would have slept with Stefan.  Shane also held Kim's cheating against her because she went back to her roots as a prostitute and used her body to barter for his life.  Plus, Kim lied about her affair and covered it up.  She almost had an abortion as well and lied about her reasons for wanting one. Kim found out that her mother had had a child with Victor, for some bizarre reason Kim believed that she was Victor's daughter. Kim who was a victim of incest believed that she was having her own father's baby.  She was tormented by that disgusting idea.  She could not confide in Shane, she kept on lying, but, he knew something was wrong.  Victor was being very smug and was always hovering over Kim. It took a while, but, Shane forgave Kim and happily accepted an unborn Andrew as his own.  I think that Chad is being a jerk, Abigail was sick and Stefan raped her. It will not be easy, but, that child is Abigail's too.  

Edited by Apprentice79
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1 minute ago, Apprentice79 said:

It will not be easy, but, that child is Abigail's too.  

And that's what Marlena helped him with today, to sift through his feelings and get to that conclusion.  And I think that's more interesting than him going, "Sounds super swell, Abigail!" the second he's asked to raise his rapist brother's baby.

Also?  I don't care what happened with Kim, Mr. Sheffield, and Victor six million years ago.  I'm reacting to the story playing out now.

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I hope Tripp puts a shirt on soon.  He looks like a sick bird.  And that horrible new hairdo only adds to the bird look.  I typically like Tripp but I hate that he and so may of Salem seem to have selected amnesia.  Not too long ago Tripp, you indirectly almost had a hand in killing people.  And you almost killed Kayla.  The only difference from you and Ben is that someone stopped you.  

Gabi.  I know many like her new "devious" ways but I don't.  It's hard for me to watch her now.  She's a bit too cruel.  Sure Abigail gets away with a lot and is never fully held accountable, but what Gabi is doing is deliberate and evil.  You're hurting Chad and eventually J.J., a guy's life that you saved.  You should be focused on getting back in good graces with Arianna.  Just stop talking to Abigail and move on and make new friends.     

And I hope that Rafe and Hope have to eat their words about Ben.  I'm so sick of those two.  

 

And on a totally different note, I wish the writers would stop using the same old lame trick of people telling secrets in open spaces only to have someone over hear them.  It's a bit overdone at this point.  Can we get some new methods?   

Edited by A.J.
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5 hours ago, boes said:

??  I'm drawing a blank on this storyline......Who is Det. Frowny and his girlfriend?

That detective who worked at the Salem PD but then took Gabi hostage....his girlfriend attacked Gabi in prison while she was in the Infirmary and after Gabi woke to find her dead, there was no explanation for who actually killed her but the blame fell on Gabi who stayed in prison longer because of it. Did that ever get explained?

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Rafe and Hope are so fucking boring.  I've never understood why these two became a couple.  She's really not redeemable for me at this point, and they only way Rafe could become someone I'd like to watch is if he got hit in the head and became a new person.

I think SS/Lani is doing a good job with the baby David story.  It's too bad Days didn't let the baby live.  I'd have liked to have seen her, Abe and baby David bond as a family.

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Jesus, Hope is a terrible person, trying to use a personal relationship to get Ben sent back to the mental hospital.

Wow, JJ, no need to be all bitchy about Chad and Gabi talking.

Let's see.  The SPD Commissioner is harassing a citizen because he's hanging out with her daughter, and her number one minion is harassing him because he killed his sister.  Do they have no cops who don't have conflicts of interest?

Ben is homeless but he has a cell phone?

So it's Eli's fault Lani ran to him for sex after she found Gabi in JJ's bed?

How does Marlena make money?  She does a lot of free counseling.

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I found Ben very creepy today.   It reminded me how he was with Abby before he started killing.   Remember thinking he would become abusive.   Jordan was always afraid he could not keep his anger in check.  

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1 hour ago, Silver Raven said:

Jesus, Hope is a terrible person, trying to use a personal relationship to get Ben sent back to the mental hospital.

And, she went back to the police station trying to convince Rafe to "find" evidence that Ben did it when Marlena just told her that she is positive Ben didn't set the fire.  And she still hasn't called off the investigation - apparently, your daughter is the ONLY person in town who matters - none of those other crimes need to be solved.

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Quote

I hope Tripp puts a shirt on soon.  He looks like a sick bird.  And that horrible new hairdo only adds to the bird look.  I typically like Tripp but I had that he and so may of Salem seem to have selected amnesia.  Not too long ago trip you indirectly almost had a hand in killing people.  And you almost killed Kayla.  The only difference from you and Ben is that someone stopped you.  

Yes to all of this. I can't give over how dorky Tripp's haircut is. And that stupid beard lol. And I noticed today that he is so thin. I also couldn't help but wonder about him trying to kill Kayla when he was going at Ben.

That being said, Ben came off so horribly today. Really weird scenes there. It's like whoever wrote them thought this was a typical triangle and not one involving a serial killer lol.

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5 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

That detective who worked at the Salem PD but then took Gabi hostage....his girlfriend attacked Gabi in prison while she was in the Infirmary and after Gabi woke to find her dead, there was no explanation for who actually killed her but the blame fell on Gabi who stayed in prison longer because of it. Did that ever get explained?

Thanks, 

I forgot all about that!  I don't remember an explanation, but I haven't been watching very consistently.

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I'm not digging these little throwaways here and there suggesting if Abs loved Chad enough and wanted what's best for the two of them she would have had that abortion. Screw you, Chad. Your wifey wants to keep HER child. It's a heavy decision, and I pass no judgement either way, but these little hints that it would have eased his pain over the RAPE that SHE has to live with disgusts me. Douchebag. 

I know Gabi was the one who put that little thought back out there today, but I don't really hold it against her. She was just playing that douche like the damn fool he's acting.  

Edited by Rowan
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6 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

That detective who worked at the Salem PD but then took Gabi hostage....his girlfriend attacked Gabi in prison while she was in the Infirmary and after Gabi woke to find her dead, there was no explanation for who actually killed her but the blame fell on Gabi who stayed in prison longer because of it. Did that ever get explained?

They did explain it.  It was another inmate.  I can't remember which one, but they did clear it up.  

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4 hours ago, DaphneCat said:

And, she went back to the police station trying to convince Rafe to "find" evidence that Ben did it when Marlena just told her that she is positive Ben didn't set the fire.  And she still hasn't called off the investigation - apparently, your daughter is the ONLY person in town who matters - none of those other crimes need to be solved.

Hope as much as told Rafe to plant evident against Ben.

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10 hours ago, Rowan said:

I'm not digging these little throwaways here and there suggesting if Abs loved Chad enough and wanted what's best for the two of them she would have had that abortion. Screw you, Chad. Your wifey wants to keep HER child. It's a heavy decision, and I pass no judgement either way, but these little hints that it would have eased his pain over the RAPE that SHE has to live with disgusts me. Douchebag. 

I did like Kate's telling Abigail that if she truly loved Chad, she wouldn't expect him to raise her rapist's child, that if Abs had any emotional fortitude or empathy, she'd leave Chad and raise the child on her own.  That would be a sacrifice but I don't think anyone thinks Abs has the guts to do it.

And as much as I'm enjoying Gabi's revenge and Kate's telling Abby off--did Abby seriously just ask the wife of the man she killed for a favor?--I'm also hating that Abs is yet again at the center of the storyline.  Everyone is talking about her, everyone is worried about her, she is the center of all.  It's exhausting to watch this bland character have all of this attention placed on them.

I can't even talk about the Ben/Ciara/Tripp nonsense and how little I care.  I don't care who set the fire, I don't care if Ben is sane or not, I don't care who Ciara's currently attracted to.  It's all just so lame.

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10 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

When? I didn't see it.

Acting like a punk to Tripp. Ben, you're a serial killer, honey! And it just went against the characterization they've been going for up until now with him. I still like Ben and I don't care though lol. But I'm afraid now that they just wanna do a typical triangle with him/Ciara/Tripp and that's so lame.

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Ugh, Chad, just give up on Abigail. Not one of her many personalities is interesting. She can't even give a black wig life. 

Not to sound cruel (but I probably do anyway -- it happens when I need to be blunt and I have no other way of sugar-coating my question), but why exactly does Abigail want this baby? 

Edited by bantering
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21 minutes ago, bantering said:

Not to sound cruel (but I probably do anyway -- it happens when I need to be blunt and I have no other way of sugar-coating my question), but why exactly does Abigail want this baby? 

Thank you! That plot point just does not work for me.

I see why Gabi doesn't want her to have an abortion (because the baby is really Chad's and she's not so cruel as to have Abigail abort Chad's kid). And I see why the show doesn't want her to have an abortion (aborted babies don't create lasting drama). But I don't understand why Abigail doesn't want an abortion. Yeah, she feels the need to integrate her alters or whatever. And what Gabby did is a part of her. And blah, blah, blah. It doesn't work.

They simply should have had Abigail state that she would never have an abortion under any circumstances. To suggest she would, but have her not go through with it does not work in this story line at all.

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I would think it in very bad taste for this show to have a white blond Catholic girl state outright that she would never have an abortion even if she was impregnated via rape. It's a little too on-the-nose with regards to the Conservative agenda. Aren't they always talking about how every life is precious? I could see a lot of anger coming from viewers if Abigail defiantly insisted that she had to carry a child even if said child was forced upon her.

It seems like the way they are going now, that's essentially what she's doing but they're just not saying it and making it a character trait.

 

Of course, the way this show has treated women it wouldn't really be out of step with all the rest of the misogyny and sexism.

 

....does anyone else remember when this show was atually fun to watch?

 

To recap some of the recent messages being said to women:

 

Hope - stay with Rafe because he covered up your crime and your late husband chose him for you! Who cares if he cheated? He wants you. You are his.

Theresa - never forget you're a conniving whore who doesn't deserve a loyal sister, much less a husband or child even after sacrificing life and limb to protect them!

 

Fun stuff.

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I'm kinda into the classic soap template of Ben/Ciara/Tripp - Girl still likes Guy X, but can't help being drawn to Guy Y whenever he crashes into her life.  I do hope there's no Brody/Schuyler pivot with Tripp, though, to prop the couple that's clearly going to emerge from this thing.  Let stupid Claire handle that kinda stuff.

Stefan O. sucks as a character, but also, Tyler Christopher is already doing his bored, going through the motions thing.  Just go away please.

Edited by TeeVee329
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38 minutes ago, DisneyBoy said:

I would think it in very bad taste for this show to have a white blond Catholic girl state outright that she would never have an abortion even if she was impregnated via rape. It's a little too on-the-nose with regards to the Conservative agenda. Aren't they always talking about how every life is precious? I could see a lot of anger coming from viewers if Abigail defiantly insisted that she had to carry a child even if said child was forced upon her.

It seems like the way they are going now, that's essentially what she's doing but they're just not saying it and making it a character trait.

Abortion is always going to be a sensitive issue. But the show introduced it. Which means however they choose to go, some viewers could end unhappy with the way they handle it. As it is, I am sure there are viewers who are upset that Abigail even considered an abortion at all.

But why would it be in bad taste for a character to decide for herself that she would never consider an abortion? It doesn't need to be a religious choice. For some people, that decision is no more distasteful than having an abortion. And for others, it's no more distasteful than deciding to carry your rapist's offspring for reasons that even then show can't seem to articulate with any clarity. Abigail was at the abortion clinic and ready to go through with the procedure. But Stefan talked her out of it ... somehow. I watched those scenes and still can't comprehend why Abigail didn't just slap the bastard and abort the baby. Nothing he said made any damn sense.

But, as it stands, there's no clear reason why she's keeping the baby. None. It makes no sense. Abigail is keeping a baby that a) was the result of rape, b) was conceived when she was under the influence of an alternate personality, c) no one but her rapist is thrilled exists, and d) will likely end her marriage to the love of her life.

Edited by Vince1178
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3 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

Hope - stay with Rafe because he covered up your crime and your late husband chose him for you! Who cares if he cheated? He wants you. You are his.

I don't approve of what Rafe did but technically he didn't cheat.  Hope broke up with him right before he slept with Sami.  

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Details, details....Sami is equally crappy for the whole thing.  If you love someone and they call it off, sleeping with someone else immediately is proof you weren't serious.

Has Hope ever cheated?

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I may be a terrible person but I am behind Gabi and Kate 100%.

I wasn't sure if Kate was really going to work with Gabi or just lying to her until she laid into Abby yesterday. I'm sorry but it takes a hell of a lot of nerve to ask the woman whose husband you murdered to help save your marriage. Kate had every right, even if she wasn't in cahoots with Gabi, to let Abby have it. They are both right, Chad is much better off without Abby.

I hope they remember all this talk about Abby not being completely responsible for what she did due to her mental illness when everything comes out regarding the paternity switch because I am pretty sure that Gabi has a good case for temporary insanity due to the situation Abby and Stefan put her in. Or she could be suffering from PTSD due to her being incarcerated for a murder she didn't commit and then beaten so severely she can never have another child again only to find out that the woman who is responsible for it is not only getting away with it but also pregnant. I would call that extenuating circumstances.

Who am I kidding? No one cares about Gabi's mental health, just Abby's.

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I know this is a minor nitpick but why is Kayla Marlena's matron of honor?  I know they are trying to do some sort of symmetry here with Steve being the best man and all, and Kayla and Marlena have a great relationship but wouldn't Hope be Marlena's first choice? 

1 hour ago, DisneyBoy said:

Details, details....Sami is equally crappy for the whole thing.  If you love someone and they call it off, sleeping with someone else immediately is proof you weren't serious.

Has Hope ever cheated?

I don't think it is great behavior and certainly says something about the relationship but I don't think it classifies as cheating.

Depends on what you consider cheating?  She slept with Patrick Lockhart (Ciara's original father) close enough to her ending things with Bo that Ciara's paternity was in question.

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36 minutes ago, JBC344 said:

I know this is a minor nitpick but why is Kayla Marlena's matron of honor?  I know they are trying to do some sort of symmetry here with Steve being the best man and all, and Kayla and Marlena have a great relationship but wouldn't Hope be Marlena's first choice? 

It should be Hope, or one of her 3 daughters, not Kayla.  The scenes between Kayla and Marlena looked choppy. I think that some scenes were cut.  

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Has Ciara graduated from a cast and crutches to the air boot for her leg? She should really still be on crutches for another week or two - then slowly start walking with the boot. Her leg seems to be healing quite rapidly.

Tripp, Ciara is thinking of Ben while she is with you.

Thought Marlena's wedding gown would be sparkly from head to toe. Kayla's matron of honour dress looked a bit dowdy and frumpy.

I was happy that Chad has left - at least for a while. He can't just immediately accept the fact that the kid is not his. He needs time to deal with his anger and the whole mess. His wife came back in record time with all her alters integrated. Doesn't sound right - should take longer than a couple of weeks.

Hope, do you really think Ben will leave? Stick him on a bus or give him a plane ticket to go somewhere or call his sister or something.

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...wouldn't Hope be Marlena's first choice?

That would leave John in a position, since buddy Bo is dead and the show doesn't want to remind us of that. So Steve is his new BFF, and has been (suddenly and awkwardly) since the Black Patch company started. Easier to feature Stayla as their closest friends than half a couple. Let's just all be grateful they've spared us a Rafe/John friendship...!

Hey, at least Kayla and Mar work together at the hospital, right? And got kidnapped together by Orpheus....and were in Prague together...

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On 7/23/2018 at 8:24 PM, kitmerlot1213 said:

I remember Dr. Laura mentioning that Gabi doesn't have a moral compass

Seriously? Laura, of all people, thinks Gabi is a sociopath? Way to put the "mental" in "judgmental," there, lady.

On 8/7/2018 at 4:58 PM, Silver Raven said:

Claire is going to sing at the wedding?  They're setting up a disaster, aren't they?

Well, "wedding" should have been your first clue...

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9 hours ago, MsTree said:

Why should Hope be Marlena's choice for matron of honor?

For a long time, Bope and Jarlena were a tight foursome.  Kayla is not a bad choice, but, Kayla and Marlena were never really tight. They loved and respected each other, but, Marlena was closer to Kim.  Hope and Marlena have gotten very close over the years. 

Edited by Apprentice79
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Shallow comments:

Agree with poster who said Tripp needs to put his shirt back on and shave.

Speaking of shaving, Hope/Kristen: High Def is not your friend. You need to shave the long peach fuzz off your face. It happens as you age, but it's looking really fuzzy.

Stefan-O is a boring character. I guess it's the actor. Though I also hate Abigail. So I'm hoping Chad divorces her and she and Stefan can run off together. But fat chance they will get rid of the princess.

Now that John has seen Marlena in her wedding dress, I predict something bad is going to happen.

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hope (kristen) need to speak LOUDER! why does she whisper her lines half the time?!

 

today was boring.

why isn't sammy going to her mother's wedding?  hope has a lot of damn nerve. i hope ciara and ben hook up asap.

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::small voice:: I think Tripp's current haircut is a marked improvement over the last dorktastic coif he was sporting... ::slinks away::

1 hour ago, msrachelj said:

why isn't sammy going to her mother's wedding?

I'm sure the first 14 or so times are magical. After that, ehhh.

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1 hour ago, msrachelj said:

today was boring.

why isn't sammy going to her mother's wedding?  hope has a lot of damn nerve. i hope ciara and ben hook up asap.

Yes, stuff is supposedly happening but I can't help think, that they should just wrap up all these plot lines.  Don't care about Chabby,  don't care about Stefan, don't care about dead Leo, don't care if Rope get together again, don't care about Brady and Eve, would care about Jennifer and Eric but had the chance to watch a U-tube video of someone peeling a carrot instead - went for the carrot.

 

Gabi being all scheming is interesting - as long as they don't have her wimp out by getting a conscience.  Ben and Ciara are interesting only because they cause problems for Rope.  I can't believe they actually had RAFE of all people telling Hope to be careful she doesn't abuse her power.

 

16 minutes ago, Sandman said:

I'm sure the first 14 or so times are magical. After that, ehhh.

REALLY don't care about wedding number 84 (or whatever the hell it is!)  But we all know the repeated mentions of Sami are really all anvils right?  Hoping that is at least interesting.

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Kiss him, Chad, kiss him! I bet that Chad putting his arms around Sonny's neck was all Billy.

Er, Gabi, it's none of your business inviting people to stay at the Kiriakis mansion.

JJ really should not have told Abigail about Chad and Gabi. This was not the time.

Rafe and Hope are the most boring couple imaginable.

Weird ending for a Friday.

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2 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

Kiss him, Chad, kiss him! I bet that Chad putting his arms around Sonny's neck was all Billy.

Er, Gabi, it's none of your business inviting people to stay at the Kiriakis mansion.

JJ really should not have told Abigail about Chad and Gabi. This was not the time.

Rafe and Hope are the most boring couple imaginable.

Weird ending for a Friday.

I really love the Sonny/Chad moments because they feel like genuine friends and I like their interactions.  I thought it was cute that Chad got Ari to stay and listen to her mom and I have to admit that I teared up when Gabi told Ari "I miss you, I miss US!"  and then Ari hugged her mom and promptly asked her for a sleep over :):)

I massively love that Gabi's set Abigail up so beautifully and that it's Abs' own sesne of entitlement that's driving Chad away--excellent :):)  And even when Gabi is plotting against the Chabby, she's still a support system for Sonny, Will and Rafe and a truly excellent partner in crime with Kate.

Edited by kitmerlot1213
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1 hour ago, Sandman said:

::small voice:: I think Tripp's current haircut is a marked improvement over the last dorktastic coif he was sporting... ::slinks away::

No slinking away, please, I completely agree.  IMO Tripp has never looked so good as now.  Before he resembled a talking eraser head.

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1 hour ago, Sandman said:

::small voice:: I think Tripp's current haircut is a marked improvement over the last dorktastic coif he was sporting... ::slinks away::

Oh no, I completely agree, I just think his hair is still stupid lol.

I hate how into Ben/Ciara I am. He looked at her lips approximately 20 times today and I was here for it.

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Message added by scarynikki12

Spoilers are not allowed in this thread. Period. Any posts that include spoilers (and casting information qualifies) will be removed. There are several other threads that allow spoilers so take that discussion to one of them.

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