S03.E01: The Calm

[Sakura12]

Because they wanted her fans to understand precisely how few fucks they give.

 

I think throwing her at a dumpster showed me that. 

 

Oh goodie, flashbacks for Sara so we can see her survive another shipwreck, be picked up by Nyssa, train, survive, fight and kill for the LOA, fall in love with Nyssa, find the strength to leave a league of Assassins, find the orphan she promised a stranger she'd take care of, become family with said orphan, decided to beat up rapist and protect women in need, reunite with her family, survive suicide attempt to not have to go back to being a killer, decide to be a killer again for no reason, and all that happened so could fall to her death by a garbage dumpster to give her sister a reason to be a hero. 

 

Am I supposed to feel sorry for Laurel, because her sister lived such a sad and horrible life so she could become a hero?

Edited October 9, 2014 by Sakura12

[TanyaKay]

I was sad she lost her shoes in the explosion and I hope Oliver remembered to grab them when he took the time to go grab his Arrow Bag.

The Buy More outfit was hysterical. On the back of her shirt it said "touch the tech" I turned to my husband and said okay that's actually the perfect place for Felicity to work because she always wanted to touch tech. His response was no it's because this year Oliver, Barry and Ray all want to touch the tech. Her.

Honestly, the way she filled out her trousers in the buy more uniform, I bet more people would want to touch that particular tech than just Barry, Ray and Oliver.

[slayer2]

Can we talk about how the episode felt, style-wise? The camera angles/movement, music cues, effects - it all felt flashier and a bit bigger. I'm guessing their popularity showing in their budget.

Hadn't thought about it but now I see what you mean and agree. Kind of like Buffy season 3, you can tell they got more money. The amount of sets and locations used alone. I imagine the Hong Kong sets cost a pretty penny. I like them, I'm happy with the bright, yellow/orangey lighting as compared to the greens and darkness of the island sets. I'll be glad to have flashbacks in such a stylish location with such beautiful looking people. Aesthetically it's very pleasing and speaking of pleasing, Roy costume is pretty awesome as well. Be forewarned, I'll probably screw up with the Roy/Ray name thing more than a few times.

[dtissagirl]

Oh goodie, flashbacks for Sara so we can see her survive another shipwreck, be picked up by Nyssa, train, survive, fight and kill for the LOA, fall in love with Nyssa, find the strength to leave a league of Assassins, find the orphan she promised a stranger she'd take care of, become family with said orphan, decided to beat up rapist and protect women in need, reunite with her family, survive suicide attempt to not have to go back to being a killer, decide to be a killer again for no reason, and all that happened so could fall to her death by a garbage dumpster to give her sister a reason to be a hero.

 

The stupidity of the writing kills me. Because Sara didn't die like that so Laurel could be a hero. She died like that so HER MASK WOULD FALL ON LAUREL'S FEET. That's it. The mask is the whole point, because they were going for the symbolism they assigned the masks on this show. We here at this forum are aware of a pre-existing comic book canon in which Dinah Laurel Lance is Black Canary, but this Laurel hasn't been on a hero path for the last two seasons. But she gets the mask before getting the hero part of it.

 

This show tends to get super duper heavy with the symbolism of the masks of the comic-canon characters. When Oliver got his, the mask was made by someone who saw his vigilantism as something wonderful, and he was all but knighted by Felicity to be The Hero As She Always Saw Him. When Roy got his mask, the symbolism was Our Hero Oliver Queen saw the potential for heroism in Roy, after training him, and after he survived his crucible [it was a stupid crucible, but he was already on the path]. Laurel gets the mask because comics.

Edited October 9, 2014 by dancingnancy

[fantique]

i'm a bitch on a mission.

haha foreverevolving, you're on fire! This line should be on a T-shirt. I am guiltily enjoying your vehemence.

[foreverevolving]

haha foreverevolving, you're on fire! This line should be on a T-shirt. I am guiltily enjoying your vehemence.

;-)

i'm just. done. you know. at first i didn't feel anything for her besides oh look the actress can't act to save her life. then Tommy died, and i was like okay, i'm gonna go in the corner and cry. season 2 rolled in and i was: Ok tommy's death was to further Oliver's plot, i can live with that. then they did the stupid booze storyline and then she blackmailed Kate Spancer followed by Kate getting the axe. and i was...

 

But i was, it's cool, it's (Cher Horowitz voice over) totally (end voiceover) cool. i'm gonna be Fine. It's. Going. To. Be. F.I.N.E!!

 

and then i heard some of KC interviews and I was: 

 

and then last night happened and all i care about:

 

Not my Black Canary and OTP, You BITCH!!!

 

 

I may be going a bit overboard here. but 5 stages of grief and all people.

[SleepDeprived]

Ah, shoot.  Poor Sara - she had such a short sucky life!  Still, she's been practising dying so much, she was bound to get it right eventually.

 

Heh. I chuckled. I'll be saving you a seat in the inner sanctum of hell for this one, @Ceylon5.

 

I think I like Roy's costume more in motion. In still pictures, the way the hood and mask fit on his head/face make me think that he looks like a ninja turtle. Also, they need better lighting in those alley/street scenes because, for a moment, I had a little bit of difficulty differentiating Arrow from Arsenal.

 

I really wish they put the Barry cameo earlier when Oliver was atually this guy who was high on life--personal and vigilante--rather than near the end when he had already chosen to be the mask of Arrow rather than Oliver, the person under it.

[slayer2]

That's a good point SleepDeprived, on both counts. I think Roy's costume is basically Ollie's but red so it would cause trouble in darkly lit scenes. As well the scene with Barry would have made more sense earlier in the ep maybe before or after the high speed chase. I feel as though that entire section of the show from the Olicity hospital scene onwards, moved at a break-neck pace and was very disjointed so perhaps the Barry/Ollie scene was an editing mishap. It would make more sense with the Flash timeline to have shoved the scene in earlier. It would be hard to dispense inspiring, feel good advice after a break-up as strange as that one.

ETA I hope you don't mean the NEW Ninja turtles as they're terrifying!!

Edited October 9, 2014 by slayer2

[Sakura12]

Roy looks strange in his costume. I think it's the leather hood. Both him and Oliver look like ninja turtles for some reason, while Sara's mask looks awesome. It's too bad they'll never get to ask her who her mask maker is, the textured material does wonders for making it look better. 

[fantique]

@Foreverevolving, it's ok. No judgement. You are welcome to gif your way through the grief.

 

The Calm.  What a perfectly not-accurate-at-all name for this episode because I'm awfully ragey.

Actually it's reflective of how I felt, it was the Calm... Before the Storm. I feel like the disappointed parent of a delinquent who can see them making the stupid choice but still holding out hope that they will know better and be smarter than that. I think that even if most viewers don't think that deeply about characters' arcs and such, there will be unease when LL=Blegh Canary/FC. They will wonder why it feels so forced and awkward. I do think this will hurt Laurel's reception because even if you don't actively dislike her (me!, it's more frustration over spilt milk), you start equating any growth in her with the misfortune of an other character. It gives me the impression that she is such a weak character that she needs those crutches to be put on the radar never mind being on an equal footing with the others.

 

I agree editing was choppy. It felt like (and that's what they are really but I shouldn't feel that way) they shot a bunch of independent scenes completely separate from each other and then shuffled them around. Whoever pointed this out is sooo right I have been thinking Roy in the mask makes me think of something and Ninja Turtle is spot on. 

Edited October 10, 2014 by fantique

[slayer2]

Hopefully it was only that fast for the premiere as they had a lot of story to tell.

Speaking of story,poor Det. Lance, he los not only a daughter but one more masked aly to watch his back. They are going to need some AA meetings for realz.

I really liked watching The Lance sisters interact. I'm sad I won't see that anymore. Hopefully in flashbacks. Sally will miss her so.

Edited October 9, 2014 by slayer2

[MsSchadenfreude]

I enjoyed the episode quite a bit.  There were some editing problems, but overall I thought it was a solid episode.  

 

Loved Team Arrow in action, even Roy was okay (although I don't love his outfit. The leather hood just looks odd and I haven't figured out why yet)

 

I'm on board for any scene between Oliver and Diggle…laughing, present giving, yelling, hugging.  Don't care what it is, just give it to me.  I will say that Oliver is better than me though because if Diggle was pointing his finger in my face with those huge arms of his and yelling, I would be running away so fast.

 

Oliver, I know you try to be tough, but you're a sap.  You made a necklace for the baby….SAP!

 

Just one thing show.  I'm willing to let Diggle step away from the team only because he is on emotional overload with the birth of his daughter, but next episode he better be back on Team Arrow where he belongs  or there will be hell to pay ( and by hell, I mean the "shooting Roy with an arrow to disable him" kind of hell)

 

Loved the Oliver and Felicity scenes.  SA and EBR have wonderful chemistry and it was in full force in this episode.  

LOL that they both used something (scotch for Oliver and benzo for Felicity) to deal with nerves.  I thought the dinner conversation was really well done.  It was a red pen…SAP! Favorite line mainly because of EBR's delivery "I've already seen you shirtless.  Multiple times…shirtless…all the time"

 

If you ever find yourself involved with Oliver Queen and you want to know how he feels, just go hang out in a hospital corridor because apparently that's where all his deep emotional confessions take place and sometimes there is also kissing. :)

 

Absolutely adored that Felicity was the one to walk away after the kiss!!!! That's my girl!

 

Ray was okay.  Although he was borderline stalking Felicity, so I'm thrilled BTW that she hacked all his computer equipment.  Happy Hacking!

 

That is one cute baby!

 

Quentin, I know you miss being a cop, but take it easy for a bit.  

 

Probably, not the most popular opinion, but I didn't have a problem with Laurel this episode.  I thought there were clear reasons for her to be in scenes (which is not always the case).  She was concerned for her dad, called Oliver so he could hear Quentin's speech and had a moment with Sara before she was killed.  

 

Speaking of Sara...I certainly did not want her to die, but I don't watch this show for Sara, and I am not going to stop watching the show because of Sara either.   I like the character fine, but I have never been overly invested in her or her story.  Ultimately, this is Oliver's show and he is the only character that is not expendable.  

 

Forgot to add, I'm interested in Hong Kong flashbacks.  I like Maseo a lot and not just because he keeps kicking Oliver's ass…that's just a bonus!

Edited October 10, 2014 by MsSchadenfreude

[Chaser]

Felicity was my MVP this episode. Everything from the serious moments, like walking away from Oliver instead of begging or soothing his man pain to throwing shade on her retail job and hacking Ray's stuff.

[slayer2]

I enjoyed the episode quite a bit. There were some editing problems, but overall I thought it was a solid episode.

Loved Team Arrow in action, even Roy was okay (although I don't love his outfit. The leather hood just looks odd and I haven't figured out why yet)

I'm on board for any scene between Oliver and Diggle…laughing, present giving, yelling, hugging. Don't care what it is, just give it to me. I will say that Oliver is better than me though because if Diggle was pointing his finger in my face with those huge arms of his and yelling, I would be running away so fast.

Oliver, I know you try to be tough, but you're a sap. You made a necklace for the baby….SAP!

Just one thing show. I'm willing to let Diggle step away from the team only because he is on emotional overload with the birth of his daughter, but next episode he better be back on Team Arrow where he belongs or there will be hell to pay ( and by hell, I mean the "shooting Roy with an arrow to disable him" kind of hell)

Loved the Oliver and Felicity scenes. SA and EBR have wonderful chemistry and it was in full force in this episode.

LOL that they both used something (scotch for Oliver and benzo for Felicity) to deal with nerves. I thought the dinner conversation was really well done. It was a red pen…SAP! Favorite line mainly because of EBR's delivery "I've already seen you shirtless. Multiple times…shirtless…all the time"

If you ever find yourself involved with Oliver Queen and you want to know how he feels, just go hang out in a hospital corridor because apparently that's where all his deep emotional confessions take place and sometimes there is also kissing. :)

Absolutely adored that Felicity was the one to walk away after the kiss!!!! That's my girl!

Ray was okay. Although he was borderline stalking Felicity, so I'm thrilled BTW that she hacked all his computer equipment. Happy Hacking!

That is one cute baby!

Quentin, I know you miss being a cop, but take it easy for a bit.

Probably, not the most popular opinion, but I didn't have a problem with Laurel this episode. I thought there were clear reasons for her to be in scenes (which is not always the case). She was concerned for her dad, called Oliver so he could hear Quentin's speech and had a moment with Sara before she was killed.

Speaking of Sara...I certainly did not want her to die, but I don't watch this show for Sara, and I am not going to stop watching the show because of Sara either. I like the character fine, but I have never been overly invested in her or her story. Ultimately, this is Oliver's show and he is the only character that is not expendable.

Forgot to add, I'm interested in Hong Kong flashbacks.

So much WORD to everything you said and yes how cute is it that he remembered the pen was red forgot about that part (will have to watch the show again). I lurve me some Brandon Routh and his chemistry with Felicity is easy and quick-witted.

You're so right that Lance needs to calm down, dunno how he will now though but maybe Laurel will make a promise to catch the guy (or girl).

Don't worry about Diggle leaving as Guggenheim (sp?) said that Sara's death will make him reconsider his choice to step back. I don't think that's a spoiler as it was said in a public article with The Hollywood Reporter but someone can let me know if I'm mucking up.

Edited October 10, 2014 by slayer2

[Chaser]

The only time Roy looked like Roy was when he and Diggle exchanged glances while Oliver and Felicity were doing the little flirty flirty. He looked like he wanted to peanut gallery so bad.

[GirlWednesday]

Finally watched the episode. Loved everything about team arrow plus Roy.

Ignored LL and her damned destiny. Pfft.

I agree with the poster above that mentioned that Roy looked weird with his mask and hood. I thought the same thing every time the camera focused on his face. It's his eyes. Makeup department needs to add more definition. The mask is too dark against his pallor. And his eyes are light too,no? It's something.... Need some contouring and contrasting, methinks. Someone in the makeup department should get on that.

And yes I have decided to focus on the superficial workings of the show rather than BIG DAMN DESTINY because pfft.

I thought the stunts at the beginning was solid. I like the team work of digg, Roy and arrow at the beginning.

Regarding QC, I wish we had a throwaway scene with felicity where she asks Oliver why he wants QC back. Oliver continues to be a flawed charActer. There also needed to be a line about arrow cleaning the city and Oliver rebuilding it. And then at the end, Oliver deciding arrow needs to keep up the fight in the dark and the Rays of the world can rebuild in the light, etc. it would have brought it together for me more. Instead editing cohesion wise, we just jumped from set piece to set piece and it felt alittle jarring.

I liked the randomness of Ray. I enjoyed the scenes with Felicity if only because it will draw out some further characterization of my girl Felicity. And it will be away from "man pained" Oliver.

[slayer2]

Because they wanted her fans to understand precisely how few fucks they give.

Oh, well, bully for us. Flashbacks for a dead character. How meaningful and gripping that will be.

I just don't agree. Darla was nothing but flashbacks on Angel for a full season and for two seasons on Buffy and it was very effective and Shado was ONLY flashbacks and she was perfectly meaningful and gripping.

[GirlWednesday]

The flashbacks will endear Nyssa to me and help me see her through Sarah's eyes. I'd still watch the flashbacks because Sarah's development to me is more epic than Oliver's And now even more tragic than it already was. I just wish LL had died instead. And it was Sarah seeking revenge And devolving from being a hero. It would have resonated with me so much more.

[Guest]

The biggest problem I have with this episode (aside from Sara's death) is that it felt overpacked with things that could have been built over a few episodes. I loved all of the Olicity moments, the pair were on fire with their chemistry, but there was a lot going on and I feel like the flirting and cutesy stuff could have happened in one episode and then the date and slow breaking up in another. I don't know. It just felt like it was crammed in and combined with everything else going on there was just too much. 

 

Also the filming and editing of the show is really different and I don't know if I like it. It just jumped around too much. 

 

On that note, I am still not over Sara's awful end. It's probably the worst decision the writers have ever made and they've made a few. I've yet to see anyone who actually thinks it was a good idea.

[AudienceofOne]

I don't know how I feel about this episode. I mean, I was never as invested as some people and most of last season was mediocre so I'm not going to dummy spit but

 

1. I hate it when two characters everyone wants to get together decide to finally go on a date and you just know the writers are either going to a) kill them off or b) contrive some contrived contrivance to keep them apart. Thus the whole Oliver and Felicity thing was just terrible. I'd rather they'd just ignored the fans and never gone there then do this stupid cliched 'we can NEVER be together' shit.

 

2. Sick of Oliver's self-absorbed schtich. I could handle it in S1 but it's tired now.

 

3. Killing off Sara - no comment.

[LeeshY]

I'm sorry, maybe I'm late to the game here, but I immediately thought it was Roy that took out Sara. Mainly because despite him being all team spirit, I wasn't getting the warm fuzzy "we're all about Oliver and the Arrow" worship that we get from Felicity and Diggle. Fetching new maroon uniform and arrow back bundle aside, he was rather cold and broody and let's face it, Sara returning means his patrolling and partnering days would be numbered, as her status as bad ass ex would make his contribution redundant.

If that's where they're going - then good job writers I say. Sure, Sara's demise sucks but seriously, it's a twist no one would expect and the entire build up can be stretched for the entire season. "Who killed Sara?" The reveal of Roy has the WHOA surprise factor. Just like Slade started as a friend/teacher and ended as a hideous orange and black foe, Roy starts as a innocent/student and ends as a hideous maroon man scorned, looking to prove himself by any means necessary.

Again, I'm late to the comment game but Sara's death wasn't too surprising given Laurel could take up the mask and then search for her sister's killer. They need something to avenge/focus on this season, and the Q Consolidated arc would get too boring too quick as a main focus. At least for 23 episodes. Food for thought.

Edited October 10, 2014 by LeeshY

[apinknightmare]

I just don't agree. Darla was nothing but flashbacks on Angel for a full season and for two seasons on Buffy and it was very effective and Shado was ONLY flashbacks and she was perfectly meaningful and gripping.

 

I didn't watch Angel, but at least with Shado we didn't know what happened to her so we could get somewhat invested in her journey. What's the point of showing us everything that Sara went through and overcame to become the person we knew, when the person we knew is now dead? Literally almost got put in a dumpster. I'd prefer it if I never see her on this show again after the next ep. I would've loved flashbacks while she was still alive, but now they're probably just going to piss me off.

Edited October 10, 2014 by apinknightmare

[GirlWednesday]

I agree with everyone who have said here in this forum that it was strategic to place so much Olicity, Felicity, digg, Digglette to distract from big damn destiny of LL. The episode was definitely on red bull.

EPs misstepped here. One of the reasons I frakkin loved loved season 2.0 was because it was mostly team arrow kicking butt. I would have been happier if we saw how good they all were at kicking butt while being very poor, new baby, ... Living a charmed life before something major like Sarah's death.

Edited October 10, 2014 by GirlWednesday

[slayer2]

OMG, someone on Kryptonsite made reference to a possible Ted Grant being in the boxing ring and I just had a face palm moment. Duuuuuh! Ha! Cool.

 

ETA to PinkNightmare: I read plenty of dead people's biographies, just because they're dead doesn't make their story any less compelling or valid to me. I still don't see what the shock is. She wasn't long for this show. I agree that the execution SUCKED. But other than that I have no problem with it.

 

LeesHY hadn't thought of that angle but it could tie into his prior rage issues and blackouts and his superpowers coming back. She was the only one on the #TeamKillRoy when he went all ragey the last time. He could have an angry, flash memory about that. But I get the feeling that unless he's a sleeper or something it's more likely to be someone from her past who will be revealed in flashbacks and make themselves known to Oliver through someone else he cares about.

Edited October 10, 2014 by slayer2

[Kymmi]

I'm interested in how Laurel fans feel about Sara being killed off.  I know the shippers want her with Oliver, but I don't know how the non-shipper fans, or shipper agnostic fans feel.  I assume they want her to be come Black Canary, from some fan art I've seen - but I'm curious if this seems like a good development for Laurel.

 

I'm not going to be able to handle watching Quentin find out that Sara is really dead.  

[Shanna]

Ray/Roy? That bugs. Also I have never seen a man who looks less like a Ray than Brandon routh.

I did not take the Diggle thing as him being off the team, just that Oliver thought he should stay out of the field for a while. And I was in total agreement at that time since Lila was nine months pregnant! Seriously Dig, what were you thinking?

[bravelittletoaster]

I just don't agree. Darla was nothing but flashbacks on Angel for a full season and for two seasons on Buffy and it was very effective and Shado was ONLY flashbacks and she was perfectly meaningful and gripping.

I'm sorry to be argumentative, but what you say here about Darla isn't true.  She died in the Angel episode "Lullaby" and that was pretty much it for her.  I think she appeared once after that as a ghost.

 

I also always thought Shado and that entire flashback storyline is boring as fuck, so having my favorite character killed and relegated to one or two meaningless flashback appearances when she has no place in the current timeline is IMO a narrative dead end.

 

I also found Sara's death particularly annoying because it came in such a fan-service heavy episode with all the Olicity stuff.  So it was like, "Oh, I see.  You decided to blow one group of fans while you were giving the other the Heisman because you did the math and figure you can get by ratings-wise without the latter.  Got it."  

 

ETA:

"Who killed Sara?"

Laurel Lance's fan club.  Least compelling mystery ever.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2014 by bravelittletoaster

[Trini]

 

I agree with the poster above that mentioned that Roy looked weird with his mask and hood. I thought the same thing every time the camera focused on his face. It's his eyes. Makeup department needs to add more definition. The mask is too dark against his pallor. And his eyes are light too,no? It's something.... Need some contouring and contrasting, methinks. Someone in the makeup department should get on that.

The makeup they put around his eyes doesn't match the color of his mask. I don't know what the best solution would be, tough.

[slayer2]

I'm sorry to be argumentative, but what you say here about Darla isn't true.  She died in the Angel episode "Lullaby" and that was pretty much it for her.  I think she appeared once after that as a ghost.

 

I also always thought Shado and that entire flashback storyline is boring as fuck, so having my favorite character killed and relegated to one or two meaningless flashback appearances when she has no place in the current timeline is IMO a narrative dead end.

In fact Darla first died in season one on Buffy and survived through flashbacks until they decided to resurrect her on season one of Angel and that is what I'm referring to with Sara. The two seasons on Buffy and one season on Angel in which she appeared in nothing but flashbacks, like I said, Darla endeared herself to the audience through the flashbacks alone as the only other reference we had to her alive was the one episode on season one Buffy. Sara has been alive for all of season two but I will still benefit from flashbacks of her that give credence and understanding into who she was as a person and some of her relationships and experiences before she came back to Star City.

 

ETA I disagree with you about Shado I quite liked her.  I don't think we have much in common as it pertains to this show. 

Edited October 10, 2014 by slayer2

[apinknightmare]

ETA to PinkNightmare: I read plenty of dead people's biographies, just because they're dead doesn't make their story any less compelling or valid to me. I still don't see what the shock is. She wasn't long for this show.

 

 

There's no shock here. You'd be hard-pressed to find a person on this site who thought Sara wouldn't die.

 

I'm glad you'll be able to enjoy her flashbacks. For me, it's just this show trying to have its cake and eat it too, and I don't think the current storyline of Laurel being on her journey to becoming BC will be well-served by showing how much more her sister went through in order to get to where she was. It just invites more comparisons, which isn't good for Laurel IMO. I want to continue to enjoy this show as much as I can, and personally I'd just rather not see Sara again.

There's no shock here. You'd be hard-pressed to find a person on this site who thought Sara wouldn't die.

 

I'm glad you'll be able to enjoy her flashbacks. For me, it's just this show trying to have its cake and eat it too, and I don't think the current storyline of Laurel being on her journey to becoming BC will be well-served by showing how much more her sister went through in order to get to where she was. It just invites more comparisons, which isn't good for Laurel IMO. I want to continue to enjoy this show as much as I can, and personally I'd just rather not see Sara again.

 

ETA: we should probably move this convo - Spec without spoilers, maybe?

[slayer2]

I'm interested in how Laurel fans feel about Sara being killed off.  I know the shippers want her with Oliver, but I don't know how the non-shipper fans, or shipper agnostic fans feel.  I assume they want her to be come Black Canary, from some fan art I've seen - but I'm curious if this seems like a good development for Laurel.

 

I'm not going to be able to handle watching Quentin find out that Sara is really dead.  

I can answer this. I'm a fan of Laurel but don't want her anywhere near Oliver romantically as I think they have zero chemistry. Watching the episode I was a little too shocked by how quickly it happened to really formulate any thought but in the longrun I'm excited for Laurel and always rather prepared myself for the moment that Sara would be killed off because canon is canon, I've watched enough Smallville to know that. I also like to work out a great deal and follow CL and KC on instagram and have seen KC working really hard to get in shape for this so I've been eager to see what they will write for her. Again I think the execution was really sloppy, I really think another anvil or two would have gone a long way and a good death after a crazy assed fight would have fit the character so much more. It seems like if they could kill her this easily then why wouldn't anybody have tried this last season? It must have been someone she trusted and an element of surprise otherwise I don't really see it happening.

 

ETA PinkNightmare that's understandable. I really like Sara as well, I think after watching AJ Quartermaine die (again) on GH that my heart is just closed to tv deaths. I just can't take it so it really is easier to watch when I don't get invested in their fates....now if they kill off the Huntress I guarantee I'll be singing a different tune. Also, I'm a big fan of CL now and a part of me just wants to see her get her own show or movies like Milla Jovovich.

 

Forgot to mention how glad I am that it looks like they're changing the name to Star City! Finally! Good transition, I guess Starling made sense for the first two seasons but I'm glad it's getting its really name back.

Edited October 10, 2014 by slayer2

[statsgirl]

On that note, I am still not over Sara's awful end. It's probably the worst decision the writers have ever made and they've made a few. I've yet to see anyone who actually thinks it was a good idea.

Laurel fans pretty much universally like it because now Laurel gets to step into her fishnets, ...er mask.  There's nothing stopping full on Laurel Lance Black Canary now.

 

 

ETA to PinkNightmare: I read plenty of dead people's biographies, just because they're dead doesn't make their story any less compelling or valid to me. I still don't see what the shock is. She wasn't long for this show. I agree that the execution SUCKED. But other than that I have no problem with it.

Canon is not always canon on this show. Diggle, Moira, Quentin, Sara and Thea do not exist in the comics, and Felicity is a completely other character. If Sara doesn't exist in the comics, why can't she be the Black Canary here? 

 

If Sara had been a bad character, or even a mediocre one (like Roy) or a plot contrivance with a short stay like Shado, I wouldn't be so upset,  But Caity Lotz took the role and over the season made a compelling character that much of the audience loved and someone who we could accept as the Black Canary far better than Katie Cassidy's Laurel Lance.  I feel like she got killed off because people wouldn't be able to accept Laurel as BC as long as Sara was around to offer an alternative.

 

The shock is also that Sara survived everything last season, only to be taken down and fridged for Laurel's arc.

 

But the biggest shock for me is that in the first 40 minutes of the episode, I thought the EPs finally had a grip on Laurel's character and knew what they needed to turn her eventually into a vigilante.  Build her up slowly helping Team Arrow as a lawyer, and then have her join full strength.  The death of Sara and the way she died made me spin 180.  Whatever it takes, whatever other character the writers need to destroy, they will do it for Laurel. They will always put Laurel first whether it's the right decision in terms of the show or not.

 

Right now I'm de-investing myself from the show because if they could kill off Sara to make Laurel BC, they can kill off Felicity so Laurel can be with Oliver.  Because that's what it is in the comics.  And I have no interest in seeing that, just as I have no interest in seeing Sara flashbacks because if I do, I will always resent that they killed her off for Laurel.

 

So if the show is going to be faithful to that small portion of the comics history where Dinah Laurel Lance is the Black Canary and Oliver's love interest, I'd be smart to bail out now.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

Mostly i liked this episode. Oliver was acting like a bitch. One bad night and he breaks up with Felicity.

The Sara/Laurel thing is not surprising. Laurel is a main character while Sara isn't plus other reasons. I don't hate Laurel so it doesn't bother me:

Like the new tech guy

Edited October 10, 2014 by Accused Dingo

[TanyaKay]

OMG, someone on Kryptonsite made reference to a possible Ted Grant being in the boxing ring and I just had a face palm moment. Duuuuuh! Ha! Cool.

 

 

 

Yes, there was a Wild Cat references in that fight scene.

We did not get to see him (probably because they had not cast the actor playing that role) but apparently, it was Ted Grant/Wild Cat who was fighting in the boxing ring.

We probably saw his manager with his name emblazoned on the jacket next to the boxing ring

[Kromm]

Ray/Roy? That bugs. Also I have never seen a man who looks less like a Ray than Brandon routh.

[ohjoy]

Touché. :-)

[writersblock51]

 

because canon is canon

 

I don't even understand what this means, truly.

 

Canon does NOT and cannot apply to this show any more. In fact, it didn't from the pilot.  And this episode emphasized it in every possible way:

- Diggle existing

- Felicity existing

- Waller being very non Wallerish (but apparently, she's a match with the New 52 version but eh - she still wouldn't terrify Batman)

- Thea (mentioned but not seen)

- Sara existing

 

Insisting that Sara has to die so that Laurel can assume her rightful place as Black Canary - when Laurel doesn't resemble ANY version of the comic character other than the name - is pointless to me. The show takes DC comic elements, tweaks them for this universe and does what they want to tell a TV show story.   The EPs and Stephen Amell have said this in interviews.  They are NOT sticking to comic book canon.

 

I was hoping that Sara's Black Canary would be enough. I certainly thought she was. 

 

The manner in which the show decided to treat Sara, in her death, comes across as disrespectful.  A dumpster, for pete's sake.  A sucker punch attack on her - whereas any fan of the comic character would hope that she'd have been given a chance to fight. 

 

The EPs are comic book fans.  But they are also very selective.  And, in the case of how they've handled Sara and Laurel, I think they've misjudged both characters and how they work out best for the show.

 

In this episode, Laurel was shown to be a lawyer and quite possibly an effective one.  Which makes her a viable Manhunter candidate.  I'd considering accepting that path for her and it may even be something I'd watch. But her taking over her sister's mask, jacket and persona? Nope.

Edited October 10, 2014 by writersblock51

[arjumand]

I was hoping that Sara's Black Canary would be enough. I certainly thought she was.

 

The manner in which the show decided to treat Sara, in her death, comes across as disrespectful.  A dumpster, for pete's sake.  A sucker punch attack on her - whereas any fan of the comic character would hope that she'd have been given a chance to fight.

 

 

I too thought Sara made a pretty good Black Canary, and it could have been just one of the many changes made from the comics. The fact that this wasn't possible suggests to me that there is something in KC's contract that stipulates to the last detail what her part will be. I refuse to believe that the writers/producers are fetishizing her to the extent that Kristin Kreuk was on Smallville (because Kreuk actually made an effort to work within the bullshit they gave her, even when they decided she would be a witch one episode, a vampire the other, and so on).

 

This is contractual, because otherwise I have to think that everyone involved in the show is a goddam idiot. And that can't be, for the simple reason that there is too much money involved in these shows, and I've read enough backstories behind the implosion of shows to realise that what we disparagingly call "the suits" have valid reasons for their decisions. So I've decided it's contractual, and all this fawning over KC is just making the best of a bad situation. Basically, everyone was locked into a contract in which KC becomes the Black Canary, on the basis of her previous good work in other shows. And then when they saw what we saw, the way KC barely acted (the EYE-ACTING when Slade tells her Oliver's the Arrow! I still rewatch that when I need a laugh), the absolute lack of chemistry between her and their leading man (and his extra chemistry with a character they'd made up), and so much more, there was panic, and scrambling to save the situation.

 

Um, um, Sara didn't drown! And she became a badass! Phew. And then Sara became too much of a badass. And the rest we know.

 

I too wish Sara could have just retired from Black Canarying and handed over her mask to Laurel, if it had to be her. But Oliver smiled a couple of times this episode. This cannot be. The Code of Manpain demanded her death.

 

Now the manner of her death - yeah. I got nothing. I mean, the overkill of it is drumming into our heads that she is really, truly dead. No more comebacks. She's joined the bleedin' choir invisible. And I'm hoping that the whole dumpsterish, thrown out with the trash is a coincidence, so that she will literally fall at Laurel's feet. But I know better. On a show, as on a movie, nothing is a coincidence. There was a reason that, years ago, on Deadwood, Kristin Bell's character was killed off in such a horrible way. And there's a reason for this, not that we'll ever know it, until the show is long over.

 

I can't say I'm done, but I foresee so much eye-rolling in the future. I will fortify myself with watching Golden Girls episodes online. Ah, Dorothy, Sophia, Blanche and Rose. You light up my life.

Edited October 10, 2014 by arjumand

[slayer2]

Yes, there was a Wild Cat references in that fight scene.

We did not get to see him (probably because they had not cast the actor playing that role) but apparently, it was Ted Grant/Wild Cat who was fighting in the boxing ring.

We probably saw his manager with his name emblazoned on the jacket next to the boxing ring

Awh, supercool! Thanks! I hope there's some casting news soon. There's a whole slew of actors who were unceremoniously killed on The Vampire Diaries that could make it work. Although Smallville alum could work as well. Too bad they didn't do some colour blind casting on this one.

ETA Well shit, never mind. A little internet search reveals that a) he has been cast and b) they did do some colourblind casting with JR Ramirez. Nice!

Edited October 10, 2014 by slayer2

[Pyramid]

So that just happened. They literally threw Sara out with the trash, and literally dropped her mask at Laurel's feet. Not only is the mask dropping at her feet lazy writing, the manner of Sara's death is a complete fuck you to her character.
And as has been mentioned, why do I care about her flashbacks? Why do I care as I watch her train and become an excellent Canary?

 

The show runners basically admitted that nothing matters more than making Laurel the Black Canary. Tragic waste of a good show.

 

And as for Oliver's bullshit reasons for not being with Felicity, just give me strength. What a lot of shite.

[ostentatious]

Reading the transcripts, I noticed this line from Sara:

I was on my way to see Laurel, picked up your radio chatter. You should tell Felicity mix up her frequencies a bit."

So they're shining a spotlight on the long commented upon fact that their comms protocol seems a bit, shall we say, unwise.

Ray is on Felicity's trail. The scene immediately following this one is him stalking her down the hospital corridor. No way he missed the radio chatter. He knows about Team Arrow now. Jesus Christ, he's going to be obsessed with her.

Edited October 10, 2014 by thecatbastet

[BkWurm1]

Ray is on Felicity's trail. The scene immediately following this one is him stalking her down the hospital corridor. No way he missed the radio chatter. He knows about Team Arrow now. Jesus Christ, he's going to be obsessed with her.

 

Ray followed her GPS.  He wouldn't have been listening for radio chatter. 

 

 

Now on to some episode reaction.  Actually, first some comments that I need to respond to. 

LOL that they both used something (scotch for Oliver and benzo for Felicity) to deal with nerves

 

Oh!  I just caught the significance.  Oliver never drinks.

 

Also, they need better lighting in those alley/street scenes because, for a moment, I had a little bit of difficulty differentiating Arrow from Arsenal

 

Soooo much this.  I flat out couldn't tell who was who or even that they'd switched between characters.  This is a real problem that they are going to have to do something to fix.  I can't see them adding any light so maybe a nice reflector on Roy's back?  Poor Roy.  He was in several scenes but except for exchanging a really great glance with Diggle and aiming a hose at a bomb, I don't remember him doing anything.  He just didn't stand out.  Maybe that was the point. 

 

This empty handed gesture when Felicity left him was rather heavy handed with sorrow and emptiness that he felt that Felicity refused to wait for him till eternity and then two seconds later, he was off to see Barry with no sign of sadness. That was the quickest recovery time from a heartbreak.

 

I rewatched the Oliver/Barry scene after watching “The Calm”.  Most of their interaction worked within the parameter of Oliver putting all his abandoned hopes of being a “light” and “inspiration” to his city on to Barry.  I watched the scene with the idea that Oliver was beating himself up for not being the kind of hero that could be with Felicity, that something inside him needed to be broken in order to work, but he saw that Barry could be what he couldn’t be and though he couldn’t fix anything with Felicity and I don’t see him pushing Felicity toward Barry any time soon, I could imagine him seeing encouraging Barry as a small band aid toward what had just happened.

 

Then he says cool with that weird voice and smile and I have no explanations..  Maybe he was suddenly suffering from weird after effects of Vertigo?

[BkWurm1]

So we've now got Blegh Canary, Fakanary and Blackmail Canary? That pretty much sums up my feelings on her.

 

May I add BSC as in Bull Shit Canary to the list?   It’s just so easy to tap out.

 

 

Oliver's line to Felicity - "don't ask me to say I don't love you" - right before he kissed her, was especially poignant and heartbreaking.  I could feel for both of them.

 

Sigh, this.  So much this.

 

I'm still working through the stages of grief over Sara's unkindly death so I'm not ready to gush about the wonderful stuff but I am ready to comment on my reaction to Laurel that I had even BEFORE Sara was sacrificed on her altar of inadequacy.

 

 

I did not like Laurel in this episode.  Immediately something about her grated.  She was too loud and too perky and too self satisfied as she dragged Oliver out to give him his gift as if she was the one actually giving it to him.  Somehow she made it about herself.  She is the one that tells Oliver about the honor but she only tells him about it in time for him to be there and witness it from the side.  How about if she suggested that everybody on the team might want to come out for the event?  Oliver would be there to support the Lance family.  Felicity for obvious reasons.  The rest could blend into the crowd or come up with some excuse.  

 

And speaking of Felicity, why wouldn’t have Quentin told Felicity himself??  And if Laurel felt it was fine for her and Oliver to be there, why couldn’t they have joined the regular crowd actually watching the announcement in front of the speaker where you could see his face??  Nope, Laurel gets Oliver to come out all by himself and then she keeps him all to herself and then basically takes credit for something her father is doing. 

 

This is why I DON’T like you Laurel!!!!

 

Then when her father is in the hospital, I would have liked for one moment the conversation not to be “you aren’t listening to me” .  She's all tough and no love, at least not enough IMO.  Plus when he said all he knew was being a cop, how about pointing out that he was still a cop and still putting the bad guys away and the city still needed him?  Man, she is lousy at giving comfort…but it’s in character so I guess I shouldn’t be too surprised.

 

The scene with Sara…the thing I’m hung up on is when Laurel said she and dad didn’t want Sara going back to the League for them and Sara says no, she made that choice for herself.  In a way, I believe Sara since I think she saw trading her life in for the lives of the citizens of Starling (and her friends and family) as a just trade, but Laurel acted like she didn’t practically carry Sara onto the boat. 

 

Grrrr.

 

  So I was already yelling and grumbling at the TV when the “low voice “ came on. 

 

This is basically my real  time thought process. 

 

I thought Sara was about to be kidnapped, setting up the next episode or the season long mystery.  Then she got shot.  Okay, it’s in a bad spot, but one arrow, this way they find blood to make them freak out but she should still…then a second arrow hit…OMG, did they just shoot her again?  Was it some kind of tranquilizer dart?  The Count was loving his darts…no that’s too big to be a dart…crap that’s three…three is code for an Arrow kill shot.  They can’t kill Sara, not now.  Why would they kill Sara now?  It has to be a fake out.  She’s just shot.  There’s still Ollie’s Herbs or a Mirakuru transfusion…no, no, too close to the edge…catch her!  Save her!  SUPERMAN!!!!!!

 

Head hits immovable object, mask falls off.

 

I am numb. 

 

I hate this show

 

On the Kubler-Ross model of grief I am still circling back again and again to anger. 

[ostentatious]

Ray followed her GPS. He wouldn't have been listening for radio chatter.

I disagree. I think he would surveil the shit out of her. And I also don't think lines like that one from Sara are placed in eps for no reason. The writers wanted us to know that her comms lines are vulnerable. The only reason for that to be important is because someone else is listening other than Sara.

Edited October 10, 2014 by thecatbastet

[BkWurm1]

And I also don't think lines like that one from Sara are placed in eps for no reason. The writers wanted us to know that her comms lines are vulnerable. The only reason for that to be important is because someone else is listening other than Sara.

 

Or because it is an open joke how bad their "secret" transmissions are kept secret and they also needed a quick explanation of how Sara would have known where to find Oliver.

 

Eh, I could be wrong, but I just didn't get that vibe.  I'll do a rewatch this weekend once I'm past my weird combo of anger and indifference. 

 

Oh and as for the oft asked question of how did Ray know it was Porcupine flatulence he was listening too, I just assume the file came with a clear label.  No need to hide that detail.  It only makes her hack more entertaining. 

 

I didn't actually find Ray creepy or that stalkerish.  He certainly has boundary issues but without the creepy factor, I just see him as being over eager and too used to just doing what he wants, when he wants.  He's a geek with money.

 

If I squint a little, (Ok, a LOT) I could imagine a Cary Grant from His Girl Friday chasing after Hildy and inserting himself in her life were he isn't wanted.  He just isn't any where nearly as charming as Cary Grant. 

 

To be fair, no one is as charming as Cary Grant.  :D

[ElectricBoogaloo]

While I understand Oliver not wanting to put other people at risk, it's not his place to decide for Diggle or Felicity or anyone on Team Arrow. They are all adults with free will so they should be allowed to decide for themselves if they want to risk their lives for each mission.

 

And if he really wants to protect them, maybe consider not saying their names when he's communicating with them on missions. His identity is hidden but if anyone overhears the vigilante say Felicity or Diggle's name, it puts them at risk.

 

Haaaaaaate Sara dying. She was by far my favorite Lance and now I'm stuck with Laurel trying to inevitably take her place?

 

I enjoyed the Hong Kong flashbacks. I was never a huge fan of the island flashbacks so I'm glad that if we are going to continue getting flashbacks of Oliver's time when he was missing, we have moved on to another setting and another story.

[tv echo]

I still hate that they killed off Sara.  Although there were times last season when I thought there was so much Sara that the show should be renamed Arrow & Canary, I always really liked Sara as the Canary and I especially liked Caity Lotz as Sara.

 

Why was Sara such a good Black Canary?  Because not only did she have the plausible back story and journey from regular girl to trained assassin, but because she was played by just the right person.  Caity had the training and skills to make the fight scenes memorable.  She also was convincing as both the pre-island weak Sara and the post-island confident Sara.  In the present day, she could portray the strong, ruthless killer, or the vulnerable daughter, or the warm friend, in a way that seemed natural.  Contrast that with Katie Cassidy as Laurel, who seems to be rather a one-note actress, whether she's playing Laurel's past or present self.  Laurel just doesn't seem like a real person to me.

 

Just speculating -

but now I'm dreading seeing flashbacks of Sara training with Nyssa, cross-cut with present-day scenes of Laurel training with... Ted Grant?

 You know how this show loves its past-present parallel stories.

Edited October 10, 2014 by tv echo

[writersblock51]

 

And if he really wants to protect them, maybe consider not saying their names when he's communicating with them on missions. His identity is hidden but if anyone overhears the vigilante say Felicity or Diggle's name, it puts them at risk.

 

I think Sara's line was deliberate, too. And I think many of us here have commented that the show needs to address Diggle, Felicity and now Roy's vulnerability over the comms.  Code names, people!  I'm sure Felicity already has them all assigned in her head, with back ups.

 

The Hong Kong flashbacks will be more dynamic, I hope, than the island's - I'm resigned to their being flashbacks so I'd much rather they take place in an area where there's more people than trees.  Plus, isn't Oliver going to have a Russian connection again?  He hasn't gotten any tatoos, has he? Maybe 1?

[Ariah]

 Plus, isn't Oliver going to have a Russian connection again?  He hasn't gotten any tatoos, has he? Maybe 1?

 

Russia is probably going to be featured in Season 4 ;)

[writersblock51]

 

Russia is probably going to be featured in Season 4 ;)

thanks, that makes sense.