Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[Drogo]

36 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Look, if even the Hound gets overwhelmed for a minute or two by what's going on I'm more than willing to cut Sansa and Tyrion some slack. And has anybody noticed that the crypts are actually full of weapons? There are plenty of swords for the taking - sure they're not Valyrian steel or dragonglass but good enough to hack away a few limbs and slow down the attack. 

The Hound was outside, in the battle, with others who were armed and fighting for themselves.  If he hesitates an hour in and gets killed, it doesn't directly condemn anyone else.  Sansa was in the crypt with a weapon where no one else was armed except for her (and apparently, her Cowardly Lion.)  Their hesitation directly allowed loss of life. 

Regarding the second point:  1,000,000 gold dragons to the first woman/child/eunuch/dwarf/elder who can wrestle this sword out of the thousand-pound stone statue it's built into, while running away from the undead Dead:

[MissLucas]

Take one of those iron wrought thingies where they had logs burning and smash it against old Ned. Combine forces and topple him over as if he was Lenin. If Sansa is supposed to take down a wight on her own the rest of them can make an effort too. (Also I seem to dimly (lit.) remember that some swords where placed at the feet of those statues or on their knees.)

[Drogo]

Just now, MissLucas said:

Take one of those iron wrought thingies where they had logs burning and smash it against old Ned.

Hasn't poor Ned been through enough?

[screamin]

5 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Take one of those iron wrought thingies where they had logs burning and smash it against old Ned. Combine forces and topple him over as if he was Lenin. If Sansa is supposed to take down a wight on her own the rest of them can make an effort too. (Also I seem to dimly (lit.) remember that some swords where placed at the feet of those statues or on their knees.)

If they had torches burning (and I suppose they must have, I can't check at the moment) the torches themselves would have been fine weapons...remember, fire IS one of the things that can kill wights, and freeze-dried mummies hundreds of years old must be like tinder, just ready to go up.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Now we have her openly insulting Dany, not just upon her arrival at Winterfell, but at the very moment when Dany and her forces were putting their lives on the line to defend the North. We don't see her trying to control the situation, trying to use Dany and ingratiate herself so that she'll have a weapon to use against the thing that she sees as the bigger problem (Cersei). The one "win" she can point to was not letting Dany execute Jamie but other than that, she's been fairly ineffective beyond veiled (and not such veiled) insults.

Sort of a tangent, but you know, I don't think that's Sansa's goal. I think she still is her father's daughter and sees him as her real role model, she just wants to be smarter than him with people like Cersei. So she's not trying to manipulate or ingratiate herself to Dany. She's openly asking her intentions towards the North. And it's not like it's not working, really. Sure Dany knows that Sansa isn't super happy to see her, but I think she prefers that to feeling like she's being two-faced and by not sucking up Sansa is making it clear that the North aren't supplicants to her.

8 hours ago, Advance35 said:

In addition to keeping The Northern Lords placated, Sansa was doing something in front of the small folk because when Arya showed up and demanded they get someone whom she knew could verify her identity, The Guards told her, Lady Sansa is to busy to be disturbed.

Whatever reputation Sansa has with The Northerners, I doubt it's that of a slacker.

Also might as well mention that while Sansa is dealing with a huge logistical situation that would require a lot of managing with all those people who need to be fed etc., plus needing to set up a workshop to make tons of weapons in Winterfell etc., the previous lords wouldn't be doing weapons training during all of this because they'd just have grown up doing it so they'd already having the training. Like Sansa with sewing.

[Eyes High]

If hardened, experienced soldiers can get a pass for freaking out and freezing when confronted with the dead, I think we can forgive Sansa for having a panic attack and not immediately busting out a weapon she has no experience using the first time she sees wights in action.

As for Tyrion, eh. Protecting Sansa was his priority, as she was in no shape to do anything to protect herself until she managed to stop hyperventilating and pulled out the dagger. And personally, I don't have any problem with that. When shit hits the fan, most people's impulse is to protect their friends and family before they even think about helping anyone else. That's why Sam made a beeline for Gilly and her baby at Craster's Keep when the mutiny broke out, even though there were lots of other people who needed help. I don't think it's cowardly; I think it's human. It's really no different to me from Sandor being paralyzed by fear while random soldiers died but being galvanized into action when Arya was put in serious danger. Pretty much everyone will become a superhero when their loved ones are in immediate danger, but that courage rarely extends to other people. They don’t give out heroism medals to people who do brave things to protect their families, because it’s expected and unremarkable that people go to the mat for their loved ones in a way that most people can’t for strangers.

And given Tyrion's track record with Sansa, it doesn't surprise me that when shit hit the fan, he acted to protect her and ignored everyone else until she was ready to defend herself. The same Tyrion who tolerated Joffrey for the most part but got into it with him on multiple occasions to protect Sansa, and the same Tyrion whose reaction to seeing the High Septon torn limb from limb during the riots was not "That poor man!" but "Where's Sansa?" would ditch everyone else, including women, children and the elderly, along with his BFF Varys and Missandei (whom he did protect at the fighting pits when she couldn’t defend herself), in a heartbeat the moment she was in danger to protect her. It may not be particularly admirable, but I wouldn't call it cowardly.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Eyes High

[Advance35]

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And given Tyrion's track record with Sansa, it doesn't surprise me that when shit hit the fan, he acted to protect her and ignored everyone else until she was ready to defend herself. The same Tyrion who tolerated Joffrey for the most part but got into it with him on multiple occasions to protect Sansa, and the same Tyrion whose reaction to seeing the High Septon torn limb from limb during the riots was not "That poor man!" but "Where's Sansa?" would ditch everyone else, including women, children and the elderly, along with his BFF Varys and Missandei (whom he did protect at the fighting pits when she couldn’t defend herself), in a heartbeat the moment she was in danger to protect her. 

I always did like his dynamic with Sansa.  I'm just sorry the end of this show needs to be such a mad dash.  It would be very interesting to watch these characters evolve, since they all have (some in good ways and some not).  I do see Tyrion as being loyal to Dany and the Westeros she say's she wants to build but at the same time, I think it's very telling that his instinct was to reach out to Sansa before fleeing to safety.   We didn't see him make the same overture to Missandei or Varys or anyone else.  He in no way agreed with Sansa's tone when talking about the "Dragon Queen" but he also didn't seem to appreciate Missandei shutting Sansa up.

While consistently haughty, snarky and remote. Sansa does allow a little thaw with Tyrion (not a whole lot) but enough that he knows and remembers, she's more than the ice queen shown to the rest of the world.

My only real disappointment with the Crypt scenes was that we didn't get Sansa, Tyrion and Varys comment on the demise of Littlefinger.  Sigh. I know we are pressed for time, but LF was HUGE antagonist for all three.

[Eyes High]

41 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I always did like his dynamic with Sansa.  I'm just sorry the end of this show needs to be such a mad dash.  It would be very interesting to watch these characters evolve,

Yeah, and the way the writers went about achieving progression in Tyrion and Sansa's relationship was the cheapest TV dramatic trick ever: lock them in an enclosed space together until they're forced to work it out. That's an actual Dawson's Creek episode (one of the better ones, but the fact remains), not the stuff of prestige dramas.

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While consistently haughty, snarky and remote. Sansa does allow a little thaw with Tyrion (not a whole lot) but enough that he knows and remembers, she's more than the ice queen shown to the rest of the world.

It's kind of incredible that it took not just guaranteed death but imminent death for Sansa to drop her defenses and for Tyrion to go out on a limb and show his actual feelings for Sansa (however you want to characterize them), and even then they couldn't actually say the words. Even after Sansa silently informing Tyrion they were all doomed earlier in the episode, they were still bantering and playing everything off with plausible deniability (even Tyrion played off his "Maybe we should have stayed married" as a joke and lightly scoffed at Sansa telling him he was the best of them). If the writers see Tyrion and Sansa as that damaged, I guess it's no wonder that they thought locking them up together and siccing wights on them was the only way to get them to have a nice moment together.

As I said upthread, I think that nice moment was the whole point of the crypts sequence. That's why Gilly didn't even have a single line, why the focus wasn't on Varys, Missandei or Sansa comforting the others, and why everything that wasn't about Sansa and Tyrion's relationship wound up on the cutting room floor (even the part where they apparently battle wights). Nothing else mattered but that.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Eyes High

[Oscirus]

Sansa and Tyrion have always had a weird relationship. Tyrion is really protective of her and even in Kings landing, he was one of the two people she dropped her guard around. Hell she told him that she'd be praying for his death at Blackwater in a way that only she understood.  

Even though this was a throwaway scene I loved it. Works for these two.

[Drogo]

9 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Something I never noticed at the time- when Podrick runs over the 2 young Tyrell ladies giggle with each other like Elvis just entered the building. 

Good reputations spread as fast as bad ones in Kings Landing.

[bijoux]

Sheep shift. 😁 Ah, the innocent days. 

3 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Something I never noticed at the time- when Podrick runs over the 2 young Tyrell ladies giggle with each other like Elvis just entered the building. 

Good reputations spread as fast as bad ones in Kings Landing.

Which is why if there is any sexual healing in store for Sansa there is only one logical candidate. 

[Eyes High]

I was able to watch the 8x03 scene where the dead bust out of their tombs with decent lighting, and Sansa is actually holding one of Tyrion's wineskins as they watch what's going on. I joked before the episode aired that Sansa would go full Cersei at Blackwater, and I guess she did. So in addition to everything else Sansa was dealing with in the scene where she panicked at the sight of the wights, she was also drunk.

[Advance35]

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I was able to watch the 8x03 scene where the dead bust out of their tombs with decent lighting, and Sansa is actually holding one of Tyrion's wineskins as they watch what's going on. I joked before the episode aired that Sansa would go full Cersei at Blackwater, and I guess she did. So in addition to everything else Sansa was dealing with in the scene where she panicked at the sight of the wights, she was also drunk.

Ugh. I hate that they didn't let us see that.  Sansa had to be forced to drink during the Battle of Blackwater, she hated the taste of booze when with LF (but was trying to act sophisticated), I remember the warmth between her and Jon when he watched her try Ale and hated the taste.  For her to have her own wineskin????  At least let me see Tyrion's face when she asks for it.

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Sheep shift. 😁 Ah, the innocent days. 

I love forward momentum but a part of me will always miss when Kings Landing was humming with courtiers and intrigue.  Now it's like a Castle Cersei haunts. 

That was one of my favorite Tyrion and Sansa scenes.

[screamin]

9 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Ugh. I hate that they didn't let us see that.  Sansa had to be forced to drink during the Battle of Blackwater, she hated the taste of booze when with LF (but was trying to act sophisticated), I remember the warmth between her and Jon when he watched her try Ale and hated the taste.  For her to have her own wineskin????  At least let me see Tyrion's face when she asks for it.

I love forward momentum but a part of me will always miss when Kings Landing was humming with courtiers and intrigue.  Now it's like a Castle Cersei haunts. 

That was one of my favorite Tyrion and Sansa scenes.

Her asking for the wine would've been painfully reminiscent of their wedding night, when she spontaneously served herself a goblet of wine and drank it in one draft in anticipation of the trauma of...her honeymoon with the man she'd been forced to marry. Probably too many unpleasant associations to bring that up in what is supposed to be a cordial conversation. 

[Eyes High]

9 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Ugh. I hate that they didn't let us see that.  Sansa had to be forced to drink during the Battle of Blackwater, she hated the taste of booze when with LF (but was trying to act sophisticated), I remember the warmth between her and Jon when he watched her try Ale and hated the taste.  For her to have her own wineskin????  At least let me see Tyrion's face when she asks for it.

Yeah, Sansa at some point after hearing the men demanding to be let in to the crypt going "Fuck it" and asking for Tyrion's wine (as opposed to Blackwater when it was forced on her) kind of seems like an important character beat for her. Maybe there was a scene like that that got cut. 

Also, Tyrion must be in love with Sansa to share his apocalypse wine supply with her.

[Advance35]

First things first, Sansa looked EXQUISITE at the Winterfell Celebration.  Hair was on point and that dress looked much better than it did in pictures.  I award her look of the night.  Extra points because I bet she made it herself.

I now think I ship Tyrion and Sansa.  I'm sorry, there are MANY issues about how they came to be but PD and ST have awesome chemistry.  The weighted gaze they had when Dany secured Gendry's loyalty.  You could tell Sansa was ready to spit nails, seeing that Dany had another one of the 7 Kingdoms in her pocket and Tyrion looking at her with a "please remain poised" look on his face.

Also him seeking her out before leaving Winterfell.  And him genuinely trying to get through to her.  Even at her most belligerent and snarky, Tyrion is always gentle with her.  I like that.  I don't know if the show would/will go there, but if they did.  Thanks to the chemistry on-screen, I don't think I would hate it.

I think Sansa is jealous of Dany's power and what she views as Dany's security but I also just think, Sansa doesn't like her.   Some have suggested that if Dany and Jon got together, The North would be protected and looked after but Sansa had a reasonable suggestion in the War Council, the men needed rest and Jon IMMEDIATELY sided with Dany against her.   THAT is why Sansa hates her.  She saw how Margaery controlled Joffrey, Littlefinger controlled Lysa.  If there is love, as far as Sansa's concerned, there will always be a power imbalance.  She's not wrong.

Hate Danerys, she does, but it's clear she wants Cersei dead even more, based on her catty comment to Jaimie.

[Minneapple]

As much as I like Sansa I simply cannot stand the Sansa/Tyrion ship. I don't like shipping her with much anyone tbh.

[merrick715]

2 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I think Sansa is jealous of Dany's power and what she views as Dany's security but I also just think, Sansa doesn't like her.   Some have suggested that if Dany and Jon got together, The North would be protected and looked after but Sansa had a reasonable suggestion in the War Council, the men needed rest and Jon IMMEDIATELY sided with Dany against her.   THAT is why Sansa hates her.  She saw how Margaery controlled Joffrey, Littlefinger controlled Lysa.  If there is love, as far as Sansa's concerned, there will always be a power imbalance.  She's not wrong.

Hate Danerys, she does, but it's clear she wants Cersei dead even more, based on her catty comment to Jaimie.

I know most people will be hating on Sansa for telling Tyrion about Jon's parentage, but I thought it was a smart move. She only tells Tyrion and essentially gives him a choice. It's not like she sent ravens out to every house in the North. If Tyrion believed in Dany's unassailable ability to rule, nothing would have happened, but Tyrion doesn't, so he shares this hot piece of news with Varys. 

I was hoping that Sansa could eventually fall in love with a future husband, but this episode crushed that dream. She'll never allow herself to be vulnerable enough for that to happen, and that makes me sad, for the young romantic girl who believed in love.

Edited May 6, 2019 by merrick715

[Eyes High]

8 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I now think I ship Tyrion and Sansa.  I'm sorry, there are MANY issues about how they came to be but PD and ST have awesome chemistry.  The weighted gaze they had when Dany secured Gendry's loyalty.  You could tell Sansa was ready to spit nails, seeing that Dany had another one of the 7 Kingdoms in her pocket and Tyrion looking at her with a "please remain poised" look on his face.

Also him seeking her out before leaving Winterfell.  And him genuinely trying to get through to her.  Even at her most belligerent and snarky, Tyrion is always gentle with her.  I like that.  I don't know if the show would/will go there, but if they did.  Thanks to the chemistry on-screen, I don't think I would hate it.

I think Sansa is jealous of Dany's power and what she views as Dany's security but I also just think, Sansa doesn't like her.   

I’ve said for a while that their relationship was always shippy in the show, and the writers have dialed that up to 11 in 8x04

Sansa was visibly annoyed when Dany told Tyrion “You’re not the only clever one” and pointedly asked Tyrion later “Why her?” (Hmm.)

Tyrion and Sansa addressed each other by their names without titles, something I believe they haven’t done since S3.

We got another Chekhov’s celibacy reference. In 8x02, Tyrion said that whoremongering is no longer an option for him. In 8x04, he said that he hasn’t been with a woman in years. At this point, what could his sex life possibly matter unless it has something to do with his endgame?

And of course we had Sansa acting fairly vulnerable with Tyrion and a conversation where Tyrion seemed to be trying to warn Sansa to play nice with Dany because he was worried about what Dany would do to Sansa if she persisted.

Sansa also impulsively entrusted Tyrion with Jon’s secret when he expressed kindness and concern towards her. She was initially stonewalling and bitchy, but he managed to disarm her. A little thing, but big in the context of their relationship and Sansa’s trust issues.

7 hours ago, Minneapple said:

As much as I like Sansa I simply cannot stand the Sansa/Tyrion ship. I don't like shipping her with much anyone tbh.

Not standing it is fine, but denying that the writers are laying on some serious hints in that direction with only two episodes remaining is another.

5 hours ago, merrick715 said:

I was hoping that Sansa could eventually fall in love with a future husband, but this episode crushed that dream. She'll never allow herself to be vulnerable enough for that to happen, and that makes me sad, for the young romantic girl who believed in love.

Really? 

Sansa to Jon: We can never trust anyone who isn’t one of us, no outsiders can be trusted, EVER, Starks rule, everyone else drools, you can totally trust me with your life-altering secret.

Also Sansa, five minutes later: Hey Tyrion, guess what?

Edited May 6, 2019 by Eyes High

[QuinnM]

52 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa also impulsively entrusted Tyrion with Jon’s secret when he expressed kindness and concern towards her. She was initially stonewalling and bitchy, but he managed to disarm her. A little thing, but big in the context of their relationship and Sansa’s trust issues.

I don't believe she trusted him.  I believe she decided to let him spill the beans.  He's a good choice. It's information he could have gotten from Dany.

Still watching for the raven's scroll that Sophie T said she kept.  I don't think it's the one that Brine disclosed to Jaime.

[merrick715]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Really? 

Sansa to Jon: We can never trust anyone who isn’t one of us, no outsiders can be trusted, EVER, Starks rule, everyone else drools, you can totally trust me with your life-altering secret.

 Also Sansa, five minutes later: Hey Tyrion, guess what?

I'm confused about what you mean. Sansa tells Brienne that she trusts her more than anyone, and Brienne is certainly not from the North. She allowed Jamie to stay because it made Brienne happy, and not because she likes Jamie at all. Just look at the way she told Jamie about what's happening on the Dany and Cersei front,

If Sansa survives, she is going to have to marry a lord, and have children with him to continue the Stark name. It appears Arya has no interest in a traditional relationship, and Bran still has the personality of a tree. That means Sansa is going to have to find some lord from the North or the Vale to marry and have children with. I wanted her to find a husband she could fall in love with, but it's pretty clear that Sansa will never allow herself to be vulnerable enough for that to happen. I sense a marriage, similar to the one Olenna Tyrell had with her husband, in Sansa future.

As an aside: I hate what they are doing with Jon, and his parentage reveal. Dany, Cersei, and Sansa get dinged for wanting power, while Jon "I continually fail upwards " Snow-Targaeryn has it fall in his lap. Why not spice the narrative up, and have Jon want to be King? Gendry, who is Robert's bastard, and spent his entire life as a peasant had no problem being legitimized as a Baratheon, and ruling Storm's End. Unlike Jon, Gendry can't even read or write, and he was up for the challenge of ruling over the Stormlands.

 Sansa telling Tyrion about Jon happened because she sensed Tyrion's growing doubt about Dany, but she was also conflicted about what she was about to do. Ultimately, she didn't pass up a chance to accomplish her goal of Northern Independence. The same goal, that she's been open about from the jump. Why else does she put the ball in his court? If he was ride-or-die for Dany, he would have kept what Sansa told him between them, and no one else would know. He certainly wouldn't have shared it with Varys. It's not like Sansa sent a raven to every house in Westeros proclaiming Jon the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. 
 

Edited May 6, 2019 by merrick715

[Advance35]

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And of course we had Sansa acting fairly vulnerable with Tyrion and a conversation where Tyrion seemed to be trying to warn Sansa to play nice with Dany because he was worried about what Dany would do to Sansa if she persisted.

Sansa also impulsively entrusted Tyrion with Jon’s secret when he expressed kindness and concern towards her. She was initially stonewalling and bitchy, but he managed to disarm her. A little thing, but big in the context of their relationship and Sansa’s trust issues.

I don't think Sansa telling Tyrion the secret was pure confession, I do think it was partly a maneuver to throw discord into Team Dany.  Not enough to disrupt the campaign against Cersei (as far as Sansa knows) but enough to destabilize what was once a very cohesive unit.

I thought Sansa's look at Dany during the Winterfell dinner was because of her anointing Gendry Warden of Stormlands.  She knew the political motivation behind it, resented it for the successful play that it was and then makes eye contact with Tyrion, letting her disgust show. 

PD has to be playing these scenes the way he does on purpose.  His "Sansa, look at me."  He kept trying to reassure her, not just to try and mend her loathing of Dany but because he wants her to feel safe and secure.  He knows her for the political liability she is.  He told Varys if word really gets out, The North will declare for Jon Snow and Dany will lose The Vale, "Sansa will see to that."  All that said, he never treats Sansa like a political liability/enemy.

Who sent Sansa word about the attack against Dany's forces on the way to Dragonstone?  Was it her ex-husband?

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If Sansa survives, she is going to have to marry a lord, and have children with him to continue the Stark name. It appears Arya has no interest in a traditional relationship, and Bran still has the personality of a tree. That means Sansa is going to have to find some lord from the North or the Vale to marry and have children with. I wanted her to find a husband she could fall in love with, but it's pretty clear that Sansa will never allow herself to be vulnerable enough for that to happen. I sense a marriage, similar to the one Olenna Tyrell had with her husband, in Sansa future.

Well we heard there is a new ruling Prince of Dorne.   But, knowing Sansa these days, she might want some nobody from The North.    I see genuine chemistry between Tyrion and Sansa, but underhanded as she can be, I think Tyrion is the superior planner/schemer and I don't know if Sansa would feel comfortable with that over an extended period of time.

[Eyes High]

58 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I don't think Sansa telling Tyrion the secret was pure confession, I do think it was partly a maneuver to throw discord into Team Dany.  Not enough to disrupt the campaign against Cersei (as far as Sansa knows) but enough to destabilize what was once a very cohesive unit.

Yes, on the Inside the Episode the writers said that Sansa told Tyrion because she knew Tyrion would tell Varys and then there would be no way the information would stay secret. I still saw vulnerability on her part, and she dropped the demeanour she used in 8x01 with him. If it had been an entirely calculated LF-type play, she would have approached Tyrion and not the other way around. She only decided to tell him after she heard him state his reasons for supporting Dany (his conviction that she was going to make Westeros a better place) and her realization that Tyrion is afraid of Dany.

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I thought Sansa's look at Dany during the Winterfell dinner was because of her anointing Gendry Warden of Stormlands.  She knew the political motivation behind it, resented it for the successful play that it was and then makes eye contact with Tyrion, letting her disgust show. 

That upset look didn't come until after Dany complimented Tyrion, though, and Tyrion caught Sansa's eye. And then her next words to Tyrion a few scenes later were "Why her?"

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PD has to be playing these scenes the way he does on purpose.  His "Sansa, look at me."  He kept trying to reassure her, not just to try and mend her loathing of Dany but because he wants her to feel safe and secure.  He knows her for the political liability she is.

My takeaway from that scene is that Tyrion was genuinely worried that Sansa provoke Dany in a way that would result in Sansa getting hurt, as Sansa called him out on his fear of Dany. I think up until 8x04, Tyrion figured that Sansa and Dany would eventually get along, but he has realized that that's a pipe dream and that if Sansa doesn't toe the line, she could be in danger.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Eyes High

[Maximum Taco]

The other good point about Sansa telling Tyrion about Jon is it gives her a very plausible excuse to Jon afterwards if it comes back to her.

If Tyrion decides to keep the secret, and tell no one, well she's no worse off then before.  

If Tyrion decides to spread it and foment discord in Dany's ranks, he might still not tell anyone where he heard the secret. Tyrion has already been shown to have a soft spot for Sansa. And if Dany demands to know he might refuse to say anything. At this point Dany might already have found him guilty of sedition, and he would have little to nothing to gain from flipping on Sansa. Dany would definitely suspect Sansa over anyone else, but it would be difficult to prove. 

If Tyrion decides to spread it and he also decides to tell Jon and/or Dany that Sansa was the one who told him. Well, yes she told the secret she swore to keep, but it's not like she told the Northerners, or sent a broad proclamation out to the far reaches of the the realm. She told the Queen's Hand, the person who should be Dany's most ardent supporter. If the Queen's Hand was willing to betray her, doesn't that say something about the Queen? Doesn't that in and of itself partially vindicate her decision? Sure Jon might still hold it against her, but it's a better look then her blabbing to the Northerners and actively pushing for him to take the throne. 

The only way she actively loses is if Tyrion directly goes to Jon and/or Dany and tells them and only them. And we already know this didn't happen. 

I don't think this was a fully Littlefinger play like D&D seem to be suggesting in Inside the Episode. Sansa isn't purely doing this for power, I think she legitimately doesn't trust Dany and also legitimately fears for Jon and her family. And it did seem like she was struggling with her promise to Jon and only decided to go through with telling Tyrion at the last minute after he expressed concern for her.

But if this is a Littlefinger play, it's a pretty good one. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Advance35]

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My takeaway from that scene is that Tyrion was genuinely worried that Sansa provoke Dany in a way that would result in Sansa getting hurt, as Sansa called him out on his fear of Dany. I think up until 8x04, Tyrion figured that Sansa and Dany would eventually get along, but he has realized that that's a pipe dream and that if Sansa doesn't toe the line, she could be in danger.

True. And it has become very clear Dany is losing patience on all fronts.  In all seriousness, I already think Sansa is in danger.  This is quite the political grenade she's activated.  And it's already begun to have a domino effect.  When word gets out about WHERE it originated......gulp........

And won't that make for a messy political soup.  If Dany were to "remove" Sansa, IF Jon could get behind it (which I would question, no matter how much he wants to ring her neck), I think it would shatter her partnership with Tyrion (open rebellion, I don't think so, but they would never be as productive as they could be).  But Arya, I'm quite certain, would return from wherever to avenge her Sister.

I really hope we get more scenes with them.  Intrigue, Danger, ambiguous romance.  They have turned into one of my favorite dynamics on the show.

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That upset look didn't come until after Dany complimented Tyrion, though, and Tyrion caught Sansa's eye. And then her next words to Tyrion a few scenes later were "Why her?"

I'm already looking forward to my rewatch tonight.

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I don't think this was a fully Littlefinger play like D&D seem to be suggesting in Inside the Episode. Sansa isn't purely doing this for power, I think she legitimately doesn't trust Dany and also legitimately fears for Jon and her family. But if this is a Littlefinger play, it's a pretty good one. 

I think Sansa did it for a few reasons.  I think Dany looking at Sansa with victory in her eyes, when Jon shut Sansa down in the War Meeting was when Sansa memo'ed to self, "I'll get you for that."  But I also don't think she has faith in Jon to hold the line for the North.  Her advice about letting the troops rest was sound and I think if Jon weren't so concerned with Dany's feelings he would have agreed.  Sansa knows this.  It's why she isn't gungho about the two marrying,  She doesn't trust Jon to stand up to Dany.  In all honesty, I was surprised that he shut Sansa down about giving the troops rest.  As I thought that was pretty sound advice.

During the end of her scene with Tyrion, they played the music they used when Sansa and LF tricked the Lords of the Vale.

[Smad]

6 hours ago, Advance35 said:

This is quite the political grenade she's activated.  And it's already begun to have a domino effect.  When word gets out about WHERE it originated......gulp........

Except for the fact that Jon got the ball rolling on that one. Dany pretty much ordered him not to tell anyone. He did it anyway. Sansa wouldn't know about this 'grenade' if Jon had obeyed his queen. Sansa had no plans to tell anyone until it became clear to her that Tyrion is afraid of Dany. So this on top of Jon's blind devotion to Dany doesn't bode well for Jon's safety in Sansa's mind. And she only told Tyrion and no one else. Tyrion decided to tell Varys. So there are many people to blame but it originated from Jon disobeying Dany's wishes.

6 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I think Sansa did it for a few reasons.  I think Dany looking at Sansa with victory in her eyes, when Jon shut Sansa down in the War Meeting was when Sansa memo'ed to self, "I'll get you for that."  But I also don't think she has faith in Jon to hold the line for the North.  Her advice about letting the troops rest was sound and I think if Jon weren't so concerned with Dany's feelings he would have agreed.  Sansa knows this.  It's why she isn't gungho about the two marrying,  She doesn't trust Jon to stand up to Dany.  In all honesty, I was surprised that he shut Sansa down about giving the troops rest.  As I thought that was pretty sound advice.

I don't think Sansa was thinking 'I'll get you for that.' Dany has yet to show that she cares, at all, about the people of Westeros aka her subjects. And I don't mean during an apocalyptic situation like the AotD. I mean in general. She doesn't care about food, she hasn't said anything in regards to what she plans to do for the people of Westeros when she gets the throne and she won't let battle exhausted and wounded soldiers rest if there is a goal she wants to achieve.

Meanwhile Jon is proving over and over again that Sansa was right about men doing stupid things for women. Jon is completely Dany whipped, to the point where he does non-Jon things. The guy who wants to protect the realm, protect the North and it's people, suddenly doesn't think it's prudent to rest and recuperate and for the wounded to heal before sending them off into another war? That doesn't match up with Jon Snow at all. And Varys was right in his estimation, even if J/D married, Dany would be wearing the pants in that power couple because Jon has proven that to be true all Season. And Sansa is very aware of what happened to Stark men when in KL so she rightfully fears for Jon's life.

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, Smad said:

Except for the fact that Jon got the ball rolling on that one. Dany pretty much ordered him not to tell anyone. He did it anyway. Sansa wouldn't know about this 'grenade' if Jon had obeyed his queen. Sansa had no plans to tell anyone until it became clear to her that Tyrion is afraid of Dany. So this on top of Jon's blind devotion to Dany doesn't bode well for Jon's safety in Sansa's mind. And she only told Tyrion and no one else. Tyrion decided to tell Varys. So there are many people to blame but it originated from Jon disobeying Dany's wishes.

I don't think Sansa was thinking 'I'll get you for that.' Dany has yet to show that she cares, at all, about the people of Westeros aka her subjects. And I don't mean during an apocalyptic situation like the AotD. I mean in general. She doesn't care about food, she hasn't said anything in regards to what she plans to do for the people of Westeros when she gets the throne and she won't let battle exhausted and wounded soldiers rest if there is a goal she wants to achieve.

Meanwhile Jon is proving over and over again that Sansa was right about men doing stupid things for women. Jon is completely Dany whipped, to the point where he does non-Jon things. The guy who wants to protect the realm, protect the North and it's people, suddenly doesn't think it's prudent to rest and recuperate and for the wounded to heal before sending them off into another war? That doesn't match up with Jon Snow at all. And Varys was right in his estimation, even if J/D married, Dany would be wearing the pants in that power couple because Jon has proven that to be true all Season. And Sansa is very aware of what happened to Stark men when in KL so she rightfully fears for Jon's life.

Did any of the people with, you know, actual military experience, like Jon, Davos, Grey Worm and Brienne agree with Sansa about the troops needing rest?  I would think Ser Davos, especially, would speak up if the troops were not ready.  

Dany asked Sansa how much time they needed and she said, she didn't know and would need to ask the officers.  Huh? 

So, Sansa hadn't spoken to the officers and has zero military experience, but figured out on her own that the troops needed rest and were not ready to go into battle?  

It seemed to me like she was just trying to come up with an excuse to delay and go against the Queen.  

[JennyMominFL]

8 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Did any of the people with, you know, actual military experience, like Jon, Davos, Grey Worm and Brienne agree with Sansa about the troops needing rest?  I would think Ser Davos, especially, would speak up if the troops were not ready.  

Dany asked Sansa how much time they needed and she said, she didn't know and would need to ask the officers.  Huh? 

So, Sansa hadn't spoken to the officers and has zero military experience, but figured out on her own that the troops needed rest and were not ready to go into battle?  

It seemed to me like she was just trying to come up with an excuse to delay and go against the Queen.  

The fact that soldiers ideally need a rest after a taxing battle hardly needs a military expect to figure out.

[Drogo]

1 minute ago, JennyMominFL said:

The fact that soldiers ideally need a rest after a taxing battle hardly needs a military expect to figure out.

Then a pre-council meeting with the commanders would've been a good idea so she'd have an answer for a question the Queen would definitely ask. 

[JennyMominFL]

12 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Then a pre-council meeting with the commanders would've been a good idea so she'd have an answer for a question the Queen would definitely ask. 

Yes, It would have

Edited May 6, 2019 by JennyMominFL

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

The fact that soldiers ideally need a rest after a taxing battle hardly needs a military expect to figure out.

We don't know how many days they have been resting or how tired and hurt they are.  As brutal as the Battle of Winterfell was, I believe it lasted less fewer than 12 hours.  The lead characters, who were in some of the most brutal parts of the fight, were in good enough shape to party, drink, and have sex.   

They might have needed recover from their post battle celebration hangovers, more than exhaustion from the battle.  

There were 4 military commanders there, who fought at WF and  were actually going to have to fight at KL, and who presumably knew the state of their troops a lot better than Sansa the Cryptkeeper,  and none of them brought up fatigue.

Sansa was making crap up and stirring the shit, just like her mentor, Littlefinger would do.   

Edited May 6, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[sistermagpie]

21 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Did any of the people with, you know, actual military experience, like Jon, Davos, Grey Worm and Brienne agree with Sansa about the troops needing rest?  I would think Ser Davos, especially, would speak up if the troops were not ready.  

Dany asked Sansa how much time they needed and she said, she didn't know and would need to ask the officers.  Huh? 

So, Sansa hadn't spoken to the officers and has zero military experience, but figured out on her own that the troops needed rest and were not ready to go into battle?  

It seemed to me like she was just trying to come up with an excuse to delay and go against the Queen.  

If she was making up the idea that the troops needed a rest the officers would just say that when asked. I doubt any of them would be offended at the question.  It's not like Dany had an answer from them herself and it is a no brainer concern to ask about. 

[glowbug]

I call BS on Sansa being the one who wants to delay dealing with Cersei. All she did for two seasons was tell Jon how dangerous Cersei is, how they need to deal with the Cersei threat. She is told there is an army of undead soldiers coming for them and her response is "yeah, but Cersei." Now Dany is proposing going after Cersei because she believes the longer they wait the more time Cersei has to amass power and Sansa of all people is suddenly like "No, we need to wait." I think the argument is reasonable but having it come from Sansa isn't. 

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

If she was making up the idea that the troops needed a rest the officers would just say that when asked. I doubt any of them would be offended at the question.  It's not like Dany had an answer from them herself and it is a no brainer concern to ask about. 

But, Sansa apparently assumed the troops were exhausted without speaking to any of the officers.  There were at least 5 military commanders in the room (Jon, Brienne, Davos, Grey Worm and the nameless Dothraki) and none of them brought up fatigue or chimed in to back up Sansa when she claimed the troops were too tired to fight.  

Sansa stated the troop were too tired, as if it were a fact, when she had no basis for that claim.  

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But, Sansa apparently assumed the troops were exhausted without speaking to any of the officers.  There were at least 5 military commanders in the room (Jon, Brienne, Davos, Grey Worm and the nameless Dothraki) and none of them brought up fatigue or chimed in to back up Sansa when she claimed the troops were too tired to fight.  

Sansa stated the troop were too tired, as if it were a fact, when she had no basis for that claim.  

I would consider the Battle of Winterfell a great basis for it. But if she was mistaken the generals can just say that so she hasn't slowed anything down. It was Dany and Jon who said when they were ready.

6 minutes ago, glowbug said:

I call BS on Sansa being the one who wants to delay dealing with Cersei. All she did for two seasons was tell Jon how dangerous Cersei is, how they need to deal with the Cersei threat. She is told there is an army of undead soldiers coming for them and her response is "yeah, but Cersei." Now Dany is proposing going after Cersei because she believes the longer they wait the more time Cersei has to amass power and Sansa of all people is suddenly like "No, we need to wait." I think the argument is reasonable but having it come from Sansa isn't. 

It is if she's worried they need to be at their best to face her. That could be the reasoning. 

[Smad]

17 minutes ago, glowbug said:

I call BS on Sansa being the one who wants to delay dealing with Cersei. All she did for two seasons was tell Jon how dangerous Cersei is, how they need to deal with the Cersei threat. She is told there is an army of undead soldiers coming for them and her response is "yeah, but Cersei." Now Dany is proposing going after Cersei because she believes the longer they wait the more time Cersei has to amass power and Sansa of all people is suddenly like "No, we need to wait." I think the argument is reasonable but having it come from Sansa isn't. 

Right, it's BS to want to wait for the troops to heal and recuperate before going into another war. Because who needs actual battle ready troops in a war. By now they all also know that Cersei enlisted the Golden Company so they won't just be facing regular folk conscripted into war.

And oh look. Not sending scouts, bad eye sight and the usual less than zero military strategy got another dragon killed, the rest of Dany's ships smashed to pieces and one of her advisors beheaded. I love how everyone is excused for the piss poor military moves they are making that keeps getting people killed and fans harp on Sansa for a SENSIBLE move aka HEALTHY BATTLE READY TROOPS. Hilarious.

[Drogo]

12 minutes ago, Smad said:

Right, it's BS to want to wait for the troops to heal and recuperate before going into another war. Because who needs actual battle ready troops in a war. By now they all also know that Cersei enlisted the Golden Company so they won't just be facing regular folk conscripted into war.

And oh look. Not sending scouts, bad eye sight and the usual less than zero military strategy got another dragon killed, the rest of Dany's ships smashed to pieces and one of her advisors beheaded. I love how everyone is excused for the piss poor military moves they are making that keeps getting people killed and fans harp on Sansa for a SENSIBLE move aka HEALTHY BATTLE READY TROOPS. Hilarious.

Ok, but Sansa didn't want to wait so they could send scouts or develop better strategy- she wanted to wait so the troops could "rest."   She wanted it so badly she didn't bother to ask anyone how long they would need and just piped up as a tiny ill-informed voice of disagreement pointing out problems without data or solutions.  Did she think she'd say "Let's wait an unknown amount of time" and Daenerys would say "K sis- LMK"..?

Waiting another week would have had the same result, though probably with twice as many ballistas (and dragons in the sea.)

[Advance35]

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Meanwhile Jon is proving over and over again that Sansa was right about men doing stupid things for women. Jon is completely Dany whipped, to the point where he does non-Jon things. The guy who wants to protect the realm, protect the North and it's people, suddenly doesn't think it's prudent to rest and recuperate and for the wounded to heal before sending them off into another war? That doesn't match up with Jon Snow at all. And Varys was right in his estimation, even if J/D married, Dany would be wearing the pants in that power couple because Jon has proven that to be true all Season. And Sansa is very aware of what happened to Stark men when in KL so she rightfully fears for Jon's life.

And fears Power Games in Kings Landing running roughshod over the North.  I certainly agree with you there.

Who's going to stand up for what's best for the North?  Jon proved it wouldn't be him.  The North just fought a war, after spending years under the brutal tyrannical reign of the Iron Throne and because Dany camel into Jon's room and cried "Dear Diary, I want the Iron Throne." Jon is ready and willing to throw a weakened North into a war with a fully rested Mercenary Army.

That meeting made clear that until Sansa starts kissing Dany's ass, Jon can and will tell her to sit down and shut up.  Even when she has valid points.

And now that Dany has had another epic fumble, she's going to require more man power to compensate for the loss of ANOTHER dragon.

I honestly might have told the secret for Dany's smirk alone but I do agree Sansa had other valid reasons as well.

[Sakura12]

On 4/30/2019 at 9:07 PM, dirtypop90 said:

I also don’t think Sansa did anything wrong. Sansa fans likely jumped on the clip because they are sick of the constant  Sansa backlash. I haven’t been a part of the online community for long but I think it is odd how the same people that say Sansa is useless, the worst etc can’t stop talking about her and discuss her more than the characters they actually like. It is...interesting. Has it always been this way? I joined the fandom way late in the game so I had no clue all of this was going on.

It used to be Dany that everyone hated on. Now it's Sansa and Dany. It's more telling that it's always the female characters.  I don't hate Sansa, but I don't think it wasn't a good look to show her hiding while HER people were running around screaming and dying. How did Tyrion and her find the only spot the dead weren't looking at? They also should've had her congratulating her sister the hero, instead of showing her sitting there glaring at Dany. 

We can rag on Dany and Sansa all day but it's was the writers decision to make two strong women with similar pasts be petty and hateful to each other. 

[Smad]

37 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Ok, but Sansa didn't want to wait so they could send scouts or develop better strategy- she wanted to wait so the troops could "rest."   She wanted it so badly she didn't bother to ask anyone how long they would need and just piped up as a tiny ill-informed voice of disagreement pointing out problems without data or solutions.  Did she think she'd say "Let's wait an unknown amount of time" and Daenerys would say "K sis- LMK"..?

Waiting another week would have had the same result, though probably with twice as many ballistas (and dragons in the sea.)

Why would Sansa suggest scouts? Stop twisting my words to suit your argument please. I was clearly talking about all the military geniuses assembled in WF, Sansa is not a soldier or commander. The Long Night battle was a catastrophe of epic proportions, all the battles in the last few Seasons were. So of course everything goes wrong for the 'good guys' because they are utterly moronic in all things war/battle. And that's why they keep failing and getting everyone killed. That's why Dany lost yet another dragon and why Missandei's head got chopped off.

Sansa's suggestion was neither ill-timed nor ill-informed. After last episode's battle, WF would be littered with hurt soldiers everywhere. It doesn't take a genius to come to the conclusion that hurt soldiers and not well rested soldiers won't be able to fight properly anytime soon. Sansa not knowing what state each and every soldier is in is a given, considering there are thousands at WF. Hence her comment about asking the captains about the state of their troops. If you want to win a battle you better have a battle ready army, simple as that.

[Smad]

12 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

They also should've had her congratulating her sister the hero, instead of showing her sitting there glaring at Dany.

Stark family time? Surly you jest. It would get in the way of the soap opera romance crap, the catty women and the dudebros.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

Ok, but Sansa didn't want to wait so they could send scouts or develop better strategy- she wanted to wait so the troops could "rest."   She wanted it so badly she didn't bother to ask anyone how long they would need and just piped up as a tiny ill-informed voice of disagreement pointing out problems without data or solutions.  Did she think she'd say "Let's wait an unknown amount of time" and Daenerys would say "K sis- LMK"..?

Why not? It seemed to me she was just stating the obvious. The troops would leave when it made the most sense, according to the generals. Even if she was uninformed about the actual time wouldn't it be a far worse thing that Dany and Jon also hadn't found out the best time and so just said right away? This wasn't a Dany/Jon vs. Sansa thing, it was a "consult the leaders with battle experience and those people caring for the wounded" thing. It didn't seem like it needed to be a disagreement at all. Sansa wasn't offering military tactics.

Just to be clear, I'm not seeing this as Sansa=good/Dany=bad in a general way. And I get that they both are supposed to have issues with each other personally just on sight so it's not like one's being totally objective and dispassionate and the other one's a spiteful bitch. But Dany's got more power and seems to have more of a temper, so she's got to be more careful.

[Kate47]

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

We can rag on Dany and Sansa all day but it's was the writers decision to make two strong women with similar pasts be petty and hateful to each other. 

THIS. I would have loved it if Dany and Sansa could sit down and have a solid frank discussion about what it is that they want and how a compromise can be hammered out.

For Sansa, what does Northern Independence *look* like? Is it total autonomy, friendly relations, trade back and forth, what? What would she be willing to acquiesce to in order to gain that goal, and what would she be unable to give up?

For Dany, how important is the North? If you play strategics like making a loyal Gendry lord of Storm's End, is there a way to help create an independent North that is still on friendly terms? What concessions can be made to ensure the peace and prosperity of the entire land?

These are two strong and capable women. I get that a little distrust is in order, but I wanted to see them approach each other with a solid agenda and mutual respect. This "I don't like her/she doesn't like me" stuff is a good look for nobody.

[Snowball II]

Add me to the list of people who are tired of the Sansa/Dany cattiness.  The two of them have more in common than they even know, why can't they just talk?  Why are they being written this way?  It's so disappointing.  I have to be honest, I really don't like where D&D are going with the female characters, on this show.  Anyone who isn't Arya is mired in stereotypical, petty bullshit, or they're missing (hey, Yara!).  I hate it.

[GraceK]

15 minutes ago, Fiver said:

Add me to the list of people who are tired of the Sansa/Dany cattiness.  The two of them have more in common than they even know, why can't they just talk?  Why are they being written this way?  It's so disappointing.  I have to be honest, I really don't like where D&D are going with the female characters, on this show.  Anyone who isn't Arya is mired in stereotypical, petty bullshit, or they're missing (hey, Yara!).  I hate it.

To be fair,it’s mostly one sided. Daenerys tried reaching out and it made no difference. Dany also just helped save the North, toasted Arya, smiled at her at the feast , and has done nothing to Sansa. It’s Sansa who has continued to be petty and bitchy and finally Dany is rightfully sick of it. Not to mention she rightfully told Jon that despite what he wants, Sansa will push for him to be on the throne and will divide them. And she did just that.

Edited May 7, 2019 by GraceK

[ShellsandCheese]

I think it was stupid for Sansa to tell Tyrion about Jon’s real parents; because she still hasn’t learned her lesson. I’m sure everything will work out for Sansa because she’s obviously getting the good edit and D&D cannot stop gushing about how smart she is. 

Picture for a second that Tyrion does have some secret deal with Cersei and then he tells Cersei and Varys. What happens if Varys and Tyrion start plotting against Jon to secure Dany’s shot at the throne and Jon also becomes a target of Cersei. I just think it was dumb. And if we were in season four or five it would come back to bite her ass. But there’s less than three hours left of the show so I’m sure it will be dropped. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[Kate47]

I feel like Dany's first attempt at speaking to Sansa came off as a little too...smarmy, maybe? Like, hey girl, I rlly love your brother, we both been thru some shit, bff? If she had sat down and just straight up laid stuff out and spoken to Sansa's power and role instead of trying to be Sansa's *friend*, I think it might have gained some traction. But honestly, it wasn't a bad attempt and I was hoping for a longer interaction.

I read another post in a different thread that (to me) summarized Sansa's choice to tell Tyrion most succinctly. She told him because she trusts him a bit and because she can tell that he has doubts about Dany. Once told, it was his choice to either tell Dany and Jon directly that word was getting around, keep it to himself, or do some damage with it. He chose to tell Varys. Politically, this is now disseminated enough to be an issue, and it's very telling that Tyrion has enough doubt to bring Varys in.

It knocks Dany's court off balance, which is a solid move if Sansa actually regards her as a threat. But again, I hate that they're at odds and I wish the writers would have women in power recognizing and respecting each other instead of turning to backbiting. It demeans everyone and makes it difficult to root for anyone so close to the end.

[ShellsandCheese]

I agree because quite frankly the ending of the show is fairly obvious. Or at least should have been. Cersei is defeated and the Iron Throne is destroyed. That could have been done without doing whatever is being done to Sansa’s character, Jon’s, or Dany’s. Let’s be honest here, non of the remaining main or secondary characters are fit to rule. They all have too many issues - except maybe Davos. But clearly D&D couldn’t figure out how to get there in a way that makes sense so they’ve resorted to whatever it is that is happening in the final season. 

[anamika]

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

We can rag on Dany and Sansa all day but it's was the writers decision to make two strong women with similar pasts be petty and hateful to each other.  

I really don't think Dany was being petty and hateful towards Sansa. She was diplomatic and charming when they first met and praised Sansa. She only got rude snark and opposition. She again approached Sansa later on and tried to make peace. Sansa sees that Dany listens to and takes Jon's advice with regards to Jaime. But she still hates Dany. She sits there glaring at Dany as she congratulates Arya. She stomps off when Jon smiles at Dany. As Tyrion asks her, why does she hate Dany so much?

When Dany warns Jon against telling Sansa, she was right! That was not being petty or hateful or unjustified paranoia. Sansa is scheming against her.

13 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I think it was stupid for Sansa to tell Tyrion about Jon’s real parents; because she still hasn’t learned her lesson.

What is disgusting about all this is that Sansa has been used as a pawn because of her birth by the likes of LF and Tyrells who pushed her around as a chess piece. And now she is doing the same thing to Jon and using him and his claim as a pawn in her game against Dany.

Ned sacrificed his honor to protect Jon and keep him away from the Iron Throne and the game of thrones and all the nonsense that comes along with it.  Sansa knows that Jon wants no part of the Iron Throne and that he loves Dany. And yet she uses this information to turn Tyrion against Dany using Jon's parentage.

I don't want to ever hear again about how Sansa loves Jon and is all about family and the pack and all that. She's not and she never was. She just threw Jon under the bus for her own selfish ambitions. Like she threw Ned under the bus in the books for her own selfish ambitions. Only now, she is more LF like in how she goes about with her backstabbing plans

[GraceK]

14 minutes ago, anamika said:

I really don't think Dany was being petty and hateful towards Sansa. She was diplomatic and charming when they first met and praised Sansa. She only got rude snark and opposition. She again approached Sansa later on and tried to make peace. Sansa sees that Dany listens to and takes Jon's advice with regards to Jaime. But she still hates Dany. She sits there glaring at Dany as she congratulates Arya. She stomps off when Jon smiles at Dany. As Tyrion asks her, why does she hate Dany so much?

When Dany warns Jon against telling Sansa, she was right! That was not being petty or hateful or unjustified paranoia. Sansa is scheming against her.

What is disgusting about all this is that Sansa has been used as a pawn because of her birth by the likes of LF and Tyrells who pushed her around as a chess piece. And now she is doing the same thing to Jon and using him and his claim as a pawn in her game against Dany.

Ned sacrificed his honor to protect Jon and keep him away from the Iron Throne and the game of thrones and all the nonsense that comes along with it.  Sansa knows that Jon wants no part of the Iron Throne and that he loves Dany. And yet she uses this information to turn Tyrion against Dany using Jon's parentage.

I don't want to ever hear again about how Sansa loves Jon and is all about family and the pack and all that. She's not and she never was. She just threw Jon under the bus for her own selfish ambitions. Like she threw Ned under the bus in the books for her own selfish ambitions. Only now, she is more LF like in how she goes about with her backstabbing plans

A thousand percent. The writers even referenced Littlefinger in regards to Sansas actions this episode, and that’s not a compliment. Littlefinger was responsible ultimately for precipitating the downfall of her family, and that’s why they executed him. He’s a villain, and being shaped by the likes of Cersei and Littlefinger doesn’t speak highly of your character. Arya is seriously the only Stark I can stand right now.