S08.E07: Kill The Moon

[tv-talk]

Finally watched this one and have to give it a "meh" but with some hopeful aspects at least. Thought that there were moments here or there where Capaldi's Doctor was starting to shine through a bit more....so that's good and might offer glimpse to a promising future.

 

but the only way it will happen is when they completely ditch Clara, even an episode where she isnt that bad had to end with an infuriating rant towards the Doctor. Slap him so hard he regenerates? This scene would have been great if after explaining himself the Doctor simply said "You are free to leave at any time and never come back." Plain and simple as that, without anger or hidden agendas. I mean they are writing the Doctor as so generally callous and also somewhat unaware of what's going on.....to stick with the character he really shouldnt care that much about what Clara does one way or the other, and given the temper they have written into him he also shouldnt just take being berated on the Tardis like a Companion is his boss. I'm reminded of a line (that I actually cant remember haha) when 4 leaves UNIT behind....he is not mad at the Brigadier at all but just looks at situation and comes to realization "I'm the Doctor, not at the beck and call to some humans who need help" or something to that effect. 12 needs to get the hell away from Earth for a nice spell, deal with some grand issues inside another civilization and preferably with a Companion not rooted in being back to Earth in time for class or a date.

 

Set the Doctor free!

[Mr. Simpatico]

but the only way it will happen is when they completely ditch Clara, even an episode where she isnt that bad had to end with an infuriating rant towards the Doctor. Slap him so hard he regenerates? This scene would have been great if after explaining himself the Doctor simply said "You are free to leave at any time and never come back." Plain and simple as that, without anger or hidden agendas. I mean they are writing the Doctor as so generally callous and also somewhat unaware of what's going on.....to stick with the character he really shouldnt care that much about what Clara does one way or the other, and given the temper they have written into him he also shouldnt just take being berated on the Tardis like a Companion is his boss. 

Well that's the problem isn't it...and its a NuWho thing. Even the kindest of Classic Doctors like Two or Five, when a companion said "I'm outta here" (like Victoria or Nyssa or Tegan) the Doctor didn't argue that much and just went back to the Tardis. One could say given their characters that Nine and Ten's attachment to Rose and 11 to Amy made a certain amount of sense but given the way the Twelfth Doctor has been written (obnoxious, callous) there is nothing there any more to justify him going back and back to a companion who treats him like an old codger to be looked after and who only wants to do the Tardis thing part-time. 12 doesn't seem remotely interested in "The Impossible Girl".

 

Moffat wants to have his cake and eat it too - a Doctor who harkens back to Hartnell in age and grumpiness but without the First Doctor's reasons for early selfishness being  from being a young Time Lord with little contact with humans before Ian/Barbara. Capaldi's Doctor is over 2000 years old and has been among humans for pretty much the majority of the time - he has no excuses why he's acting this way - and since Moffat openly think it is Clara who the audience cares most about the Doctor has become a satellite character in his own show so his behavior doesn't have to be explained.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Mr. Simpatico

[LoneHaranguer]

 

I know these are for kids, and more fantasy than science fiction, but the science bits in this episode were terrible. An egg gains weight as the life inside it grows? Really? Just awful. And even if the moon somehow did end up gaining enough mass to have Earth-like gravity, the effects on the Earth would be disastrous. The writer is obviously unfamiliar with, and possibly disdainful of, grade ten physics.

This episode seemed like the story got changed partway through filming. Maybe the mass of the moon originally increased because a giant space spider landed and laid eggs all over the place, then somebody realized that would lessen the significance of blowing them up, so they changed it to the moon always having been an egg giving one unique life when it hatches (if you don't count any relatives that could be swarming all over galaxies somewhere else). You wouldn't need a yoyo to tell the difference between the moon's normal gravity and something Earth-like, so I don't think that's what they were aiming for.

[ketose]

I think the Doctor and Clara really have a toxic relationship now. He's lonely and needs a companion, but he's too jealous to let her have outside interests (which would normally not be an issue in the Whoverse). Clara wants to travel and be a special snowflake, but she resents the Doctor for showing up on his schedule instead of hers.

[Toaster Strudel]

This episode was so ludicrous.

 

I hated Clara's angry rant.  Get back to your classroom if you don't like it, and stay there.  I hated her self-important speech to the earth and the vote that she ignored,

 

I hated the crap science especially in the light of the adults mocking Courtney for her lack of science juju.  It's not like any physics/biology made any sense whatsoever.  It was so idiotic I don't even know where to begin, there were a million things wrong.  The Deus Ex Machina made me feel like I had been played the whole hour.

 

I hated Courtney.  I liked her at first as a possibly curious and adventurous type, but instead she was whiny and stupid.

 

The only thing I liked was Danny.  The actor can really sell the amorous/languorous eyes.  He's eye-candy.

[elle]

I'm not Clara's biggest fan but her anger at the end was justified. The Doctor has been pretty callous since his regeneration and quite insulting to her personally. I don't think it was about him leaving as much as it was about him holding back information that would've helped her make an informed decision. And then he pats her on the head for making the right choice. It was patronizing beyond words and he deserved every bit of anger directed at him.

I agree with you on both points. I would like to add this thought, that it was not only that he held back information from Clara and left her alone to make the right decision but he also left her.   Her friend, the person she had saved more than once, just left her on the moon which was about to be blown up.  Yes, it is a very selfish thought "how could he leave ME?!  To die!"  I found myself wondering if any of the other companions, and for that matter myself, would not have that thought in the background of one's mind even as you're trying to find a solution to the problem.  I feel that part of the reason Clara made her last second decision was the thought that The Doctor would not let her die.  He had to come back.

 

Set the Doctor free!

T-Shirt Opportunity here!

[Pattycake2]

I cringed when it became clear that the Doctor was bringing an irritating kid along for the ride and Courtney ranked so high on the annoyance meter that she rivaled Clara on that front.

 

 

This.  I couldn't stand the - Do you have any games?  Is there wifi?  You're travelling in space & time.  Shut up.  Just another this is a kid show reminder.  What happend to the Impossible Girl?  The one willing to fracture herself into a hundred bits to save and protect The Doctor?  Instead, we have Clara feeling so betrayed that she actually had to make a decision.  And it's a decision The Doctor has had to make over and over in the past 2000 years.  Doesn't feel good, does it Clara?  I missEeleven.  With all the goofiness and childishness, occasionally you'd get a glimpse of his unfathomable depth and frightening power.  I'm not getting that from this Doctor.   Also, what's the deal with the sonic screwdriver?  It doesn't seem to do much these days.

 

Adding:  I guess we've got an episode coming up where Danny proves to The Doctor that he's good enough for Clara.  Oh, joy.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Pattycake2

[ohjoy]

The only thing I liked was Danny.  The actor can really sell the amorous/languorous eyes.  He's eye-candy.

 

I'm right there with you. Hopefully he'll pop up on somethng else I can watch after his time on the show is over.

[ketose]

And another thing. Speaking of consequence free actions, Clara does this noble thing, goes into the Doctor's time stream, helps and saves him countless times and then has NO memory of the experience. Amy and Rory went through the reboot of the whole universe and they still have the memories of their original universe existence. At least they did until River came along and invaded their history.

 

The one thing that would make Clara interesting (but also magical, like Rose, Donna and Amy) would be that she knows the Doctor's history. Imagine if she spent this season having to remind Twelve who he was (due to a new set of regenerations) through personal experience guiding him.

[Llywela]

Moffat wants to have his cake and eat it too - a Doctor who harkens back to Hartnell in age and grumpiness but without the First Doctor's reasons for early selfishness being  from being a young Time Lord with little contact with humans before Ian/Barbara. Capaldi's Doctor is over 2000 years old and has been among humans for pretty much the majority of the time - he has no excuses why he's acting this way - and since Moffat openly think it is Clara who the audience cares most about the Doctor has become a satellite character in his own show so his behavior doesn't have to be explained.

Yes. And the thing is, companions are ephemeral, they come and go - they are our viewpoint characters and need to be relatable as such, but the Doctor is the one who endures. If Clara is on her way to leaving, then why on Earth spend the whole season alienating the audience from the Doctor just to give her a long-game exit story? He's the one viewers have to want to tune back in to watch after she's gone. For that, we need to have spent the season building an emotional bond with him and that isn't happening, because his character hasn't been properly established - it's been stunted, in fact, to support Clara's story. And I'm sorry, but that is horrible storytelling.

 

And I'm reading arguments above by members who totally empathise with Clara's anger, as they should since this episode was framed to justify that anger...but therein lies the problem with this narrative structure. The Doctor behaved the way he did not because that's what the Doctor would do, but because the plot required him to push Clara past her limits. It was a contrived conflict designed to service Clara's storyline, and threw the character of the Doctor under the metaphorical bus to do it, without making any effort to show his point of view or allow us to understand him. The Doctor himself doesn't actually have a storyline this season. He's just an adjunct of Clara.

 

Moffat needs to take a step back and remind himself which show he's writing for. And remind himself also of the difference between a Main Character and a Viewpoint Character.

 

He also needs to go back and watch a few of the classic Doctors he thinks he is emulating because he doesn't know them as well as he thinks he does.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Llywela

[tarotx]

I finally was able to watch this episode since my internet has been unstable all week end. 

 

It was another episode focused on Clara expecting the doctor to be one way and him not living up to how she wants him to be...

 

Imo the point of the episode was that Clara puts her life in this person that she doesn't trust his opinions of on the surface though deep down expects him to have all the answers. She expects him to be at her beck and call but gets angry when he's not at hers. She got annoyed that he didn't know who and what she was talking about right way like Clara's events are the the sole focus of the Doctors. She wants to have her own life but expects the doctor not to...

 

The Character dynamics of Clara and the Doctor are of parent and child. In earlier episodes we have the doctor trying to force Clara to do "family" time. This time the child wants to be in control of their own life but expects the parent to be there making the hard choices. That can't always be so and the parent has to force the child to be the adult sometimes. 

 

But also we have this love hate with all who are in power. You can't expect to have someone always there to make the hard choices for you. You can't pass the buck. Clara tried to force the doctor to decide, and then tried to force mankind but in the end she was forced to make her decision. She had the Knowledge person (The scientist) and the idea person (the young girl) there kind of like her devil angel but the decision was Clara's to make. Instinctively she wanted to save the new life and that was the decision she ended up making. She's has her own knowledge that mankind Survives. She has been to the future and on other planets. She did not need for the doctor to hold her hand. He had already given her the knowledge to trust her gut. 

 

There is also a a degree of Clara& the doctor's relationship that is like any that tries to hold on to what once was even though you both know there is too much of a change. You have to eventually let go to grow on your own. Clara doesn't know this Doctor any more. She reacted negative to the strange War Doctor as well. She doesn't like what she doesn't know. And She kind of lingers in her situations when she should move on. She kind of did it with the family she was watching over and putting own dreams on hold. And she's doing it with the Doctor now.

 

What I found interesting about the Doctor this episode was his going on about Kill him and kill him and his forever regenerations. There is going to come to blows about him ready to die and then basically brought back right when he had accepted death. Now death and hence life doesn't mean as much to him. Clara is the one who ask for more Doctor and she's not OK with him not being his old self. 

 

And I guess I'll have to watch the episode again in see if I can find the science though I'm not the most science literate of people. I was just thinking that the affects of the baby growing and water leaking out was affecting the moon's surface, air, bacteria and then affecting the earth which was in return affecting the moon. So the science bit didn't get me scratching my head like it should have probably. I also just figured that the new moon was like a after birth Placenta like thing. It didn't seem so out of place to me. I guess this episode was more fi than sci >.<

 

Oops this post ended up a book and all over the place >.<

Edited October 6, 2014 by tarotx

[benteen]

I did like that the people of Earth basically laughed in Clara's face over her "save the bird" speech.  I think that probably angered her more than anything else...how dare they defy the Impossible Girl.

 

BTW, I also agree...if Clara is on her way out, why is the focus on the show on her?  The Doctor is the one who endures while companions come and go.  After Ian and Barbara left, the producers and writers knew that it was the Doctor who had become the central character.  That was almost 50 years ago.  I don't know what Moffat is talking about.

[alias1]

Is there a website in Britain where fans get to complain about Moffat's writing and direction for the show?  Do fans complain?  And does Moffat read any of it?

[NCChic]

I know Moffet trolls the internet, because the new opening came from someone who created something like it online.

I can't say for certain, but don't people complain to the BBC in regards to what they see on their networks?

[wayne67]

 

What I found interesting about the Doctor this episode was his going on about Kill him and kill him and his forever regenerations. There is going to come to blows about him ready to die and then basically brought back right when he had accepted death. Now death and hence life doesn't mean as much to him. Clara is the one who ask for more Doctor and she's not OK with him not being his old self.

 

I laughed when he was like kill me over and over it doesn't matter because it seemed so weird. The Doctor used to cling so desperately to each life and now he seems awfully blase about his continued existence and the possible continued existence of his species. Though I did wonder if the Doctor had the same trick as River Song using regeneration energy as a weapon. 

 

It also felt like a reinforcement from the writer that there are no stakes any more as a meta commentary. It doesn't matter how many times the Doctor dies because he won't stay dead.

 

The freshly hatched possibly unique creature popping out another egg the minute after it was born made absolutely no sense whatsoever and smacked of lazy writing where nothing had consequences.

 

I used to love Doctor Who because it showed there were consequences even when you made the 'right choice'. Here the consequences are white washed in favor of a 'happy ending'. The fact that millions of people would have been displaced and died for that unique creature to have popped out is disregarded as inconsequential labor pains. 

 

There was no indication from the Doctor that he recognized the species of giant space creature that popped out a moon egg. Considering he was around for the creation of Earth around the Araknos ship it seemed weird he would have missed the moon egg popping out... but I guess he got bored watching the creation of the Earth, his de facto home for much of his 50 years of misadventures and skipped the moon's creation. 

 

Considering that the Doctor decided to genocide the Araknos into extinction because their mother was... unpleasant. I find his a single innocent life comments to be facetious and presumptious. There's now a giant space creature roaming the universe possibly popping out moon egg babies on every solar system and we have NO IDEA WHAT IT EATS.

 

*sigh*. This show used to be appointment tv, I watched it as soon as it came out. Now it's something to watch when I've run out of every other possible show first because it feels like the characters have no internal consistency. It's one thing if time is inconsistent because it's a time travel show but when the characters are apparently rewritten as different people from episode to episode it's alienating. People change and grow and it feels like these people are stagnating while moving in no direction whatsoever. 

 

The Doctor doesn't seem to want to save his people or do much of anything but be grumpy about living and Clara doesn't seem to want to travel with the Doctor or build a life with Danny (as far as I can tell). It feels like we're just wasting time with people who don't even want to be in the places they end up or even with the people they're with. There's no apparent joy in the adventure or in the protection of life. 

 

The Heaven/ Mistress sub plot further undermines the relevance of people dying. 

[ketose]

In Trial of a Time Lord, Six was accused of genocide for killing a bunch of homicidal plants.

[elle]

There is also a a degree of Clara& the doctor's relationship that is like any that tries to hold on to what once was even though you both know there is too much of a change. You have to eventually let go to grow on your own. 

I think this is the best summary of the Doctor/Clara relationship I have seen so far.  I found myself beginning to compare Clara and Martha as companions in the last couple of episodes.  Both have very dysfunctional relationships with their Doctor.  Martha was "allowed" (by the writers) to grow and realize when it was time to leave. And, when she had a second chance to be with the Doctor, she realized that even then it was not what she wanted.

 

I laughed when he was like kill me over and over it doesn't matter because it seemed so weird. The Doctor used to cling so desperately to each life and now he seems awfully blase about his continued existence and the possible continued existence of his species. Though I did wonder if the Doctor had the same trick as River Song using regeneration energy as a weapon. 

 

It also felt like a reinforcement from the writer that there are no stakes any more as a meta commentary. It doesn't matter how many times the Doctor dies because he won't stay dead.

 

The Heaven/ Mistress sub plot further undermines the relevance of people dying. 

Nine was rather matter of fact in his regeneration, even getting to say his catch line one more time.  Eleven had accepted his eventual death before the Clara interference/plea.  Did the classic Doctors fight so hard not to regenerate as we saw with Ten?

 

Good point about how the relevance of people dying has been subverted.  I had not given the implications of Twelve's existence or the subplot that much thought other than I find them annoying.

[tv-talk]

In Trial of a Time Lord, Six was accused of genocide for killing a bunch of homicidal plants.

 

 

The biomagnesium Mel, the biomagnesium!!

 

For some reason that has stuck in my mind all these years, funny how that works.

[elle]

And I'm reading arguments above by members who totally empathise with Clara's anger, as they should since this episode was framed to justify that anger...but therein lies the problem with this narrative structure. The Doctor behaved the way he did not because that's what the Doctor would do, but because the plot required him to push Clara past her limits. It was a contrived conflict designed to service Clara's storyline, and threw the character of the Doctor under the metaphorical bus to do it, without making any effort to show his point of view or allow us to understand him. The Doctor himself doesn't actually have a storyline this season. He's just an adjunct of Clara.

I've done been snookered!  I defended Clara because I could relate to what she was feeling.  Ack!  This is worse than having a show make me cry!  Curse you, Moffat!

 

Moffat needs to take a step back and remind himself which show he's writing for. And remind himself also of the difference between a Main Character and a Viewpoint Character.

 

He also needs to go back and watch a few of the classic Doctors he thinks he is emulating because he doesn't know them as well as he thinks he does.

So true!  Are you listening, Moffat?  (do you think he cares?)

[Llywela]

Is there a website in Britain where fans get to complain about Moffat's writing and direction for the show?  Do fans complain?  And does Moffat read any of it?

Well, there isn't a website devoted to Steven Moffat and his particular showrunning style (as far as I know - it's the internet, all things are possible!), but there are plenty of Doctor Who websites and fan forums, Gallifrey Base being the biggest, and the members there tend to be terribly vociferous about absolutely everything. It's a jungle. Moffat used to be a member there, before he became showrunner, but I can't imagine it'd be good for his sanity to lurk there any longer.

 

I laughed when he was like kill me over and over it doesn't matter because it seemed so weird. The Doctor used to cling so desperately to each life and now he seems awfully blase about his continued existence and the possible continued existence of his species. Though I did wonder if the Doctor had the same trick as River Song using regeneration energy as a weapon. 

 

It also felt like a reinforcement from the writer that there are no stakes any more as a meta commentary. It doesn't matter how many times the Doctor dies because he won't stay dead.

Now, I didn't for a moment think the Doctor was serious when he challenged the astronauts to shoot him - no more than he was serious when he suggested they shoot Courtney first (although Courtney seemed to think he meant it, another example of the carelessly detached Doctor hurting someone's feelings without noticing). He was talking to stop them shooting, in fact,, throwing out reasons why they shouldn't - "Could you really shoot this little girl? Don't you realise there's no point shooting me because I'll come back to life?" kind of thing. His wording was abrasive, but it was just the same empty blagging to stall an opponent that we've seen all the Doctors do over the years. That I had no problem with, although I do wish for a little charm to offset the belligerence.

There was no indication from the Doctor that he recognized the species of giant space creature that popped out a moon egg. Considering he was around for the creation of Earth around the Araknos ship it seemed weird he would have missed the moon egg popping out... but I guess he got bored watching the creation of the Earth, his de facto home for much of his 50 years of misadventures and skipped the moon's creation.

Well, we know from previously established continuity that the moon wasn't originally a satellite of the Earth - it was a rogue planetoid that drifted through space and got caught in the Earth's gravity. Its impending arrival was what drove the Silurians into hibernation, in fear of the climatic changes it would bring... Then again, the Doctor also knows from his own experiences that there is still a moon with a base on it in 2070, from which a Gravitron machine is operated to control Earth's weather patterns - he fought off the Cybermen there with Ben, Polly and Jamie.

 

Continuity? What continuity? This show knows no such thing!

 

You know, I know a lot of New Who fans really love it when the Doctor comes over all mystical and 'senses' the pattern of history, or whatever, as he did at the end here, but I think I preferred it when he didn't have that superpower and just had to exercise his own judgement.

Nine was rather matter of fact in his regeneration, even getting to say his catch line one more time.  Eleven had accepted his eventual death before the Clara interference/plea.  Did the classic Doctors fight so hard not to regenerate as we saw with Ten?

No, they didn't. Few of them ever had the chance. The only one who comes close is the 5th Doctor, who was poisoned but managed to hold back the effects until he'd saved the life of his companion, but there it wasn't "I don't want to go" but "I got Peri into this, I must save her", he was fighting for someone else's life rather than his own. The 1st Doctor was old and frail and simply collapsed - I think he almost welcomed the change, in the end. The 2nd Doctor fought regeneration, but because it was being forced on him by the Time Lords as a punishment, and there was no escape. The 3rd and 4th Doctors pretty much died in the heat of battle - the 3rd suffered fatal radiation poisoning and walked into it knowingly, because he saw no other option, he knew damn well it would kill him and accepted it as the price that must be paid, while the 4th fell from a tower while fighting the Master and died within moments, no time or possibility of fighting the effects. He knew his regeneration was coming, as well, it had been hanging over him throughout the adventure, but he never shirked the battle for a moment. The 6th Doctor's regeneration was a weird one because Colin Baker had been sacked so it was very much make-do-and-mend, but on-screen it was very quick - he had an accident and regenerated, no fuss. Then the 7th in the TV Movie did fight, but he fought to avoid being killed, rather than holding off a regeneration once it was on the way.

 

No, the drawn-out, clinging to this particular life was never there in the classic show.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Llywela

[SVNBob]

I too caught the abortion metaphor once it finally came down to it.  But I liked the symbolism that came along with it as well.  Not the "abort" button, but the rest.

 

The moon itself is a classic symbol of females.  It's difficult to think of a culture on this planet that did not link women and the menstrual cycle to the moon and lunar cycle at some point.  And making the moon an egg, even more overt female symbolism there

 

But the three women that had to make the "decision" also seemed symbolic to me.  They appeared to be, in essence, the Triple Goddess; i.e., the Maiden (Courtney), Mother (Clara), and Crone (Captain).  Note that the Maiden and the Crone were on opposite sides the whole time, each befitting their role: the Maiden choosing life and the Crone choosing death.  And it was the Mother that stands between, able to see both sides, who eventually broke the tie.

 

And as a bonus, in some symbology each aspect of the Triple Goddess is represented by a different moon phase: Maiden by the waxing moon, Mother by the full, and Crone by the waning.

 

 

ETA: Then, again, I could be overthinking this, because I just started re-reading Pratchett's Wyrd Sisters along with Mark.

Edited October 7, 2014 by SVNBob

[Llywela]

I've done been snookered!  I defended Clara because I could relate to what she was feeling.  Ack!  This is worse than having a show make me cry!  Curse you, Moffat!

I'm sorry if it sounded like I was cririticising anyone who defended Clara, I didn't mean it that way. Her dilemma was understandable, given the circumstances as established on-screen, and I've read some great meta on the subject. It's just that, for me, I couldn't get past the contrivance of those circumstances and the poor writing for the Doctor. It always grates on me when I can see one character being twisted out of shape to serve the storyline of another.

[fantique]

But here's my science-ignorant question: is it possible to have high tide everywhere at once? Wouldn't that require a big trough in the middle so all the water was pushed to the coast lines?

As far as I know no. The Moon is too small to have effects on the side of the Earth it's not facing. Gravitational physics has a few factors that are most important when looking at relations between celestial bodies and one of them is mass (not weight, those are 2 different things. Your weight changes depending on what planet you're on but your mass is a constant). In this case, the Moon had been gaining mass because the foetus inside the egg was getting close to hatching. Now I don't know as much about Biology, but seeing as eggs don't have an input from an outside body after they are laid I can conceive that the baby grew denser and heavier and the Moon with it. Otherwise how do chicks evolve from being foetuses in the egg? That's what the eggs we eat are, non fertilised egg so what's inside did not become an embryo. My point is that maybe when the egg is first laid it's lighter than when it hatches, hence the mass of Moon changing and therefore its effects on Earth (?). I actually thought that potentially it might be more dangerous to blow up the Moon. Either it would have chunks of it possibly hurling towards the atmosphere and contaminate the atmosphere with gases produced from the combustion or the ammo was insufficient and there would just be a wounded body floating around causing the same amount of damage. Letting it hatch would mean it would have the possibility to fly away. Since that would mean the Moon wouldn't be there I can't imagine how bad it would be to not have tides (there are other influences but they are not as significant and only occurred at a time when the Moon was closer to Earth).

 

That being said I agree Courtney should have been the one to impulsively stop the detonation. It made the whole scene before redundant for Clara to do it. I read some stuff about how she broadcasted in English. Not to be snarky but there are these wonderful inventions called subtitles and voice overs. If such a broadcast were to happen, all national channels would pick it up and have someone translate to the language of the country. That's what happened during the 9/11 coverage. There were people interviewed in New York live and there would be a voiceover in french so we could understand what they were saying.

 

I liked this episode, I thought the Moon as an egg was inventive. I am not a Clara fan so I am hoping this is the build up to her departure. I understand her emotional standpoint. It was a stressful situation and if the Doctor was indeed trying to teach her a lesson then there was something patronising about it. However I also understand the Doctor's standpoint where he felt he was showing trust in her and respected her enough to believe she could handle the situation. I have been in that type of situation and it's upsetting to see the other party feels slighted. I felt sorry for him, he looked like he didn't understand why she was pissed. I also am confused by the comments saying that he doesn't know how to deal with humans and I don't see it at all. It's just that he has concerns other than interacting with them like previous Doctors have. He doesn't seem out of his depth to me.

I think Pink's line about her still being emotional points to her outburst being more about the emotional strain of having to make that decision and if she stills feel condescended to when she calms down then that is more significant. I also don't think he was being patronising/condescending, I think that he feels he has been in a position similar to Clara's where they signed on for one thing and it ended up different from their expectations so the pay off is not as justifiable anymore. He figured there would be a point where she felt the bad would outweigh the good and the Doctor would push her in a direction that she did not want. He didn't even look smug, just actually not really believing she was as through as she said she was. Also his comment about a bad day and his dark face made me curious as to what is going on with him. The classic over the shoulder shot always sets me into alert mode because that's when I feel they are foreshadowing something.

 

ETA: someone was asking about UK viewers and these 2 sites have polls for each episode so I guess it's an indication. There are more websites but poll are a good way to see the opinions without having to read a lot of reviews.

http://news.thedoctorwhosite.co.uk/what-did-you-think-of-episode-7-kill-the-moon/

http://www.dwasonline.co.uk

Edited October 7, 2014 by fantique

[Which Tyler]

As far as I know no. The Moon is too small to have effects on the side of the Earth it's not facing. Gravitational physics has a few factors that are most important when looking at relations between celestial bodies and one of them is mass (not weight, those are 2 different things. Your weight changes depending on what planet you're on but your mass is a constant). In this case, the Moon had been gaining mass because the foetus inside the egg was getting close to hatching. Now I don't know as much about Biology, but seeing as eggs don't have an input from an outside body after they are laid I can conceive that the baby grew denser and heavier and the Moon with it. Otherwise how do chicks evolve from being foetuses in the egg? That's what the eggs we eat are, non fertilised egg so what's inside did not become an embryo. My point is that obviously when the egg is first laid its is obviously lighter than when it hatches, hence the mass of Moon changing and therefore its effects on Earth. I actually thought that potentially it might be more dangerous to blow up the Moon. Either it would have chunks of it possibly hurling towards the atmosphere and contaminate the atmosphere with gases produced from the combustion or the ammo was insufficient and there would just be a wounded body floating around causing the same amount of damage. Letting it hatch would mean it would have the possibility to fly away. Since that would mean the Moon wouldn't be there I can't imagine how bad it would be to not have tides (there are other influences but they are not as significant and only occurred at a time when the Moon was closer to Earth).

 

Not my understanding at all.

 

You cannot have high tides everywhere at once because that would need new matter (water) to be created and the abolished twice every day.

The moon pulls water towards it to create a high tide, and you get a symmetrical high tide on the opposite side of the earth.

 

Eggs do not get heavier between laying and hatching - again, that's the creation of matter; the foetus rearranges the molecules inside the shell to become foetus, rather than yolk and white.

 

Whether whatever hatched from the egg would be dangerous to the earth in and of itself - the Dr is also plain wrong there - it depends very much on the creature, but most eggs are laid somewhere that there s food immediately to hand on hatching (basically any insect); I would be seriously worried that anything hatching from the moon would have been laid there to basically eat the earth as its first meal.

 

Incidentally you'd have a hard time seeing continents from the moon, let alone being able to identify cities by their lights - most of which comes in the form of street lights, not houses anyway - not that that's anything to do with your post above; just another example of anti-science from the episode.

[MadMouse]

I'm sorry if it sounded like I was cririticising anyone who defended Clara, I didn't mean it that way. Her dilemma was understandable, given the circumstances as established on-screen, and I've read some great meta on the subject. It's just that, for me, I couldn't get past the contrivance of those circumstances and the poor writing for the Doctor. It always grates on me when I can see one character being twisted out of shape to serve the storyline of another.

 

As someone who defended her, I could tell your issues were with how the Doctor was written so no need to apologize. In fact I agree with you about the Doctor's characterization and not just in this episode. I fully expect an episode full of exposition that "explains" why he's acting this way. My hunch is its an attempt at doing the 6th Doctor's story again. I just hope the explanation isn't as stupid as the robot Doctor in series 6.

 

Clara is a very divisive character at the moment and a lot of the criticism of her is justified but this IMO wasn't one of them.I just felt the need to defend her since I've read some pretty nasty responses to her lashing out at the end of the episode. And not to open Pandora's Box but certain segments of this fandom has a huge undercurrent of sexism and misogyny when it comes to the female companions. They rip them to shreds for anything.

[fantique]

Not my understanding at all.

 

Eggs do not get heavier between laying and hatching - again, that's the creation of matter; the foetus rearranges the molecules inside the shell to become foetus, rather than yolk and white.

 

Changed my post to make it sound less definitive on the biology bit, that was just me inferring from what I know about eggs and oviparous reproduction. WRT creation of matter, since this is reproduction isn't that a bit different? Because there would be cell division at work. The nutrients are contained in the fluids inside the egg and help it grow? Besides for the same volume occupied, liquid and solid matter will not weigh the same because the latter is more dense. Since density is mass/volume, if the volume is the same but the contents are more dense the mass has to have changed. But maybe I am applying the wrong principles here, just laying out my thoughts as the episode went on. Before we even discovered the Moon was an egg I was thinking that blowing it up might have more nefarious effects. This wasn't a comment on whether it was right for the characters to want to blow it up or not. I could understand each of their perspectives. Technically there should have been no right or wrong answer. I like that (whether intentional or not) it highlighted the fact that sometimes approaching the unknown with a welcoming attitude can open up opportunities. Or a seemingly altruistic act can have great personal repercussions. Especially when it comes to human relations with each other, the environment and animals. I always feel we don't go the mutually beneficial win-win route because we want to "win" or be on top.

[Florinaldo]

As far as I know no. The Moon is too small to have effects on the side of the Earth it's not facing.

 

Oceans are not truly separated and form a united system so that an effect on one side of the Earth will have a symmetrical equivalent on the other side as Which Tyler pointed out. It's not the size of the Moon that makes the tides; its gravitational pull is indeed small, hence only a vanishingly small effect on our bodies even though they have a very high water content but a very noticeable one on the oceans which represent an enormous amount of water; in such a big system a small effect will be proportionally very big from our perspective.

 

In this case, the Moon had been gaining mass because the foetus inside the egg was getting close to hatching. Now I don't know as much about Biology, but seeing as eggs don't have an input from an outside body after they are laid I can conceive that the baby grew denser and heavier and the Moon with it. Otherwise how do chicks evolve from being foetuses in the egg?

The extra mass would have to be coming from somewhere. In the case of a baby chick, the interior of the egg is the food that feeds the embryo, and that mass is transferred to the animal. It is not created out of nothing.

 

In the case of the space creature, we can assume it ate the interior of the Moon, but again that would simply result in a transfer of mass, not in a spontaneous generation of matter as presented in this episode (including when a full-sized Moon was laid at the end).

 

The old principle formulated by Lavoisier, "nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed" still holds, except in the DW universe apparently.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Florinaldo

[Llywela]

I'm loving this discussion of the scientific aspects of the story, which for me got a bit lost beneath my wave of seething resentment of the horrible character dynamics. It's good to know that whatever else may or may not happen on Doctor Who, the hokey science is eternal!

[truther]

In the case of the space creature, we can assume it ate the interior of the Moon, but again that would simply result in a transfer of mass, not in a spontaneous generation of matter as presented in this episode (including when a full-sized Moon was laid at the end).

 

The old principle formulated by Lavoisier, "nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed" still holds, except in the DW universe apparently.

Certainly we can conceive of some magical space creature that can create an entire replacement Moon out of nothing.  But if so then the episode was badly written, because it used terms like "egg," "shell" and "hatch."  And also, when the Doctor first arrived on the Moon he immediately went to work trying to figure out why the "gravity is wrong."  So the laws of physics applied to this situation, and the hatchling inside the Moon fed off the matter around it just like any egg is supposed to operate.  That makes it impossible for the new space creature to be born and then to lay a new Moon egg that exactly replicates the old Moon it had just destroyed.  A baby can't lay an egg that's larger and heavier than itself.  It's a physical impossibility. 

 

I also wondered how the new Moon could possibly look exactly like the old one.  How do you recreate ancient lava flows, impact craters and seismic fractures?  How do you know where to put the newer craters on top of the older ones?  Does the new Moon have the left-behind Apollo landing craft on it?  That can all be hand-waved away, I suppose, but it's simply another reason why the whole Moon-is-an-egg idea (for me, at least) didn't make any sense.  At all. 

[LadyArcadia]

I love it when a show takes the main character, makes him unrelatable, and pushes him aside to focus on a secondary character who doesn't matter and is an insufferable arrogant bitch who doesn't want to be there.

 

Yeah, that's a great way to keep a successful show, successful.

[RedHackle]

Wow, I feel completely out of touch with everyone else. 

1.  I HAAAAATED this episode.  There have been lesser episodes of Who but never before have I seen one that actually made me angry.

2. I don't hate Clara - I actually kind of like her.

3. I don't hate Moffat, I actually still like him.  And while I know he's the  EP and probably could/should have killed this ep, he didn't write it, Peter Harness did.

4. Lastly, the Doctor is starting to look like he doesn't much care for black people.  That's not the Doctor, that's bad writing.

 

One more: please show, no kid companions.  Nightmare in Silver sucked - so did this. 

[Llywela]

Wow, I feel completely out of touch with everyone else. 

1.  I HAAAAATED this episode. 

Why do you feel out of touch? The majority of people commenting in this thread also disliked the episode.

 

What makes you think the Doctor doesn't care for black people? Because he was rude to both Danny and Courtney? This new Doctor has been rude to everyone he has met, universally, black or white.

[alias1]

I don't see the black thing at all.  Danny is Clara's boyfriend, and the person that Moffat loves best (Clara) either likes or loves Danny (for me, it's a little soon to call it love).  One of the best things about the episode was the snarky way the Doctor talked to Courtney.  I loved his sarcasm.  I hated the kids in Nightmare in Silver and the indulgent way that Eleven and Clara dealt with them.  

 

I can understand (sort of) the anger and frustration that Clara felt at the end but we didn't need the "slap the doctor into a new regeneration" bit.    And the whole thing was a bit of a false set up anyway.

 

Looking at the fan sites mentioned by fantique (thank you, by the way) most of the polling shows that Moffat is a great or brilliant showrunner.  I guess he's not going to change any time soon.

[Which Tyler]

Changed my post to make it sound less definitive on the biology bit, that was just me inferring from what I know about eggs and oviparous reproduction. WRT creation of matter, since this is reproduction isn't that a bit different? Because there would be cell division at work. The nutrients are contained in the fluids inside the egg and help it grow? Besides for the same volume occupied, liquid and solid matter will not weigh the same because the latter is more dense. Since density is mass/volume, if the volume is the same but the contents are more dense the mass has to have changed. But maybe I am applying the wrong principles here, just laying out my thoughts as the episode went on.

on my phone here, so this is going to gullet points rather than proper discussion, sorry about that.

You cannot create new matter, reproduction doesn't change that.

Cells do away indeed divide, they still don't create matter though.

Solids are not more dense than liquids.

The inside of the egg will have contains x hydrogen atoms, y carbon atoms and z oxygen atoms at all its stages of existence, its mass isn't changing.

An egg 1 second away from hatching has exactly the same mass it had 1 second after being laid ( I think, I guess they may lose a little water or absorb a little nitrogen, but I don't think that's the case).

[romantic idiot]

How early are the scripts written anyway? Do the writers know who will be cast for the minor roles?

[satinswan]

I don't understand the whole "Clara ignored the world" outrage. As she said, there is a moon there (yeah, the Doc said it could be a projection, painting, etc. but you could tell Clara didn't believe that), and she knew that the Earth and humans exist after 2049, which they wouldn't if the decision either way made a difference since humans don't branch out into space until after 2049. Given that the outcome of her decision doesn't make a difference, choosing to save the moon creature opposed to murdering it is the moral way to go - killing something that isn't going to harm you is just a douche thing to do. The writers put in the panic for nothing once you suss out the logic based on what Clara herself knows, which the Doctor gave her the chance to use. In some ways, he's testing her out - he doesn't have much of a memory at this point, it seems.

I don't care for the writing overall this season, though. I don't think they're writing Capaldi to the best of his abilities.

[companionenvy]

 

I don't understand the whole "Clara ignored the world" outrage. As she said, there is a moon there (yeah, the Doc said it could be a projection, painting, etc. but you could tell Clara didn't believe that), and she knew that the Earth and humans exist after 2049, which they wouldn't if the decision either way made a difference since humans don't branch out into space until after 2049.

 

Yeah, but the show has always operated on the idea that some events can be changed, so that "knowing" that history turns out a particular way isn't enough. If that were the case, the Doctor would practically always know what was going to happen in a given situation, at least on any Earth based episodes. So, Pompeii and the events of Waters of Mars were fixed points, but most things aren't - that's why, for instance, there was a real chance of humanity being turned into gas-mask zombies during The Empty Child, even though it was taking place in 1940 and Rose and Jack were both humans from later historical periods. Or why the Doctor could tell Rose in World War III that Harriet Jones would be PM for three successive terms, but then bring down her ministry in fairly short order during The Christmas Invasion. 

 

The illogical part, to me, is more that there might have been rational grounds for not killing the creature, but that wasn't actually the premise on which the argument proceeded. The rational argument would be "Look, we don't know the consequences of the moon "hatching" a new life-form, but we also don't know the consequences of blowing the moon up. So, as it isn't clear that humanity will be any better off if we kill the creature, we should default to NOT taking innocent life." 

 

But that isn't how the show presents it. It is very clearly framed as "risk all of humanity, or kill the creature," and the moral answer is pretty clearly presented as "risk all of humanity," the ultimate justification being that it turned out for the best anyway. Which is silly - if I win the lottery, that doesn't mean buying lottery tickets is a good investment, it means I got lucky. 

[LoneHaranguer]

 

she knew that the Earth and humans exist after 2049, which they wouldn't if the decision either way made a difference since humans don't branch out into space until after 2049. Given that the outcome of her decision doesn't make a difference, choosing to save the moon creature opposed to murdering it is the moral way to go - killing something that isn't going to harm you is just a douche thing to do.

That the Earth and humans would still exist does not necessarily equal no harm done. If what hatched took out 99% of the population, humanity would bounce back, but it's hardly something you'd want to have happen. It was a cop-out for the Doctor to say the future was grey; he should have known quite well what the alternate futures looked like.

[elle]

I'm sorry if it sounded like I was cririticising anyone who defended Clara, I didn't mean it that way. Her dilemma was understandable, given the circumstances as established on-screen, and I've read some great meta on the subject. It's just that, for me, I couldn't get past the contrivance of those circumstances and the poor writing for the Doctor. It always grates on me when I can see one character being twisted out of shape to serve the storyline of another.

No, it didn't sound that way to me at all!  I'm sorry that my outburst made you feel that it did.  I was ranting about being manipulated by a contrived story without realising that it was happening.  I guess it is telling how invested I am into wanting this show to work that I was finding it easier this time to justify Clara's anger with the Doctor.  It just bugs me that for some of the same reasons I don't like the show; the Doctor not acting "like the Doctor", Clara treating him like a child, convenient plot twist for happy ending; also worked in favor of them this time around.

 

Mind you that I am not immune to being manipulated by TV or movie writing.  I recall not liking "The English Patient" , mmv, for the majority of the movie and darned if that thing didn't have me crying by the end.

[elle]

Continuity? What continuity? This show knows no such thing!

 

 

No, they didn't. Few of them ever had the chance. The only one who comes close is the 5th Doctor, who was poisoned but managed to hold back the effects until he'd saved the life of his companion, but there it wasn't "I don't want to go" but "I got Peri into this, I must save her", he was fighting for someone else's life rather than his own. The 1st Doctor was old and frail and simply collapsed - I think he almost welcomed the change, in the end. The 2nd Doctor fought regeneration, but because it was being forced on him by the Time Lords as a punishment, and there was no escape. The 3rd and 4th Doctors pretty much died in the heat of battle - the 3rd suffered fatal radiation poisoning and walked into it knowingly, because he saw no other option, he knew damn well it would kill him and accepted it as the price that must be paid, while the 4th fell from a tower while fighting the Master and died within moments, no time or possibility of fighting the effects. He knew his regeneration was coming, as well, it had been hanging over him throughout the adventure, but he never shirked the battle for a moment. The 6th Doctor's regeneration was a weird one because Colin Baker had been sacked so it was very much make-do-and-mend, but on-screen it was very quick - he had an accident and regenerated, no fuss. Then the 7th in the TV Movie did fight, but he fought to avoid being killed, rather than holding off a regeneration once it was on the way.

 

No, the drawn-out, clinging to this particular life was never there in the classic show.

Thank you for the synopsis of the Doctors' regenerations.   When I read the part I  highlighted about the 3rd Doctor, I first snarked to myself about how 10 blamed poor Wilf before saving him; then I thought about how far had the writers had messed up the Doctor's character.

 

Your comment about continuity fits in so well with this post, but for me, especially this comment.

Or why the Doctor could tell Rose in World War III that Harriet Jones would be PM for three successive terms, but then bring down her ministry in fairly short order during The Christmas Invasion.

Again, Ten did that out of sheer arrogance, imho, and yet Harriet Jones was proven right by the Dalek invasion.  If were not for her foresight and her network, thanks to the Copper Foundation, Ten never would have known about "his planet" being in trouble.

 

Yet, I don't see even him abadoning the trio on the moon.  He would have stepped in to fix the situation or provide the vital clue.

 

There are things about Ten that I do not like, but I still can watch the majority of those seasons.  This season, I can't even seem to recall plots from previous episodes as if even my trivia fueled brain doesn't care.

 

eta: Oops! Not sure how to combine the two posts, so please consider this post and the previous post as one.

Edited October 7, 2014 by elle

[Florinaldo]

Besides for the same volume occupied, liquid and solid matter will not weigh the same because the latter is more dense.

Let's take water as an example. If you have a quantity of water the size of the moon and then freeze it, it will have the same mass in both instances and will exert the same gravitational pull. Ice does expand some (fill up a glass bottle, put it in the freezer and see what happens), but no extra mass is added.

 

A living being gains mass because it transforms nutrients that are readily available; it does not create mass. The creature inside the Moon only had at its disposal for nourishment the existing mass of the Moon.

 

It's good to know that whatever else may or may not happen on Doctor Who, the hokey science is eternal!

Science-Fiction often stretches the bounds of known science, but there are limits to dramatic license. DW is not hard SF and one does not expect that the stories from the show could appear in a magazine like Analog or would stick as closely and rigorously to science fact as an episode of Nova or The Nature of Things for example.

 

But it should not either sink to the depths of Space 1999, as this one did.

[wayne67]

Does anyone find it weird that the Doctor completely undermined Harriet Jones who was a duly elected government official operating under concern that the alien race that just left would come back when the Doctor wasn't around to cause more havoc and chaos? And yet he wants Clara to make a decision that affects an entire planet because it's hers even though no one elected her to be a representative and she ignored the people involved anyway... He just gave Clara veto power over the Earth based on? nothing that I can comprehend. 

 

It's one of the things that always confused me about the Doctor and his relationship with humanity. He seems to toggle wildly inconsistency with humanity. He undermines or mock humanity's attempt to arm themselves against the endless alien horde that frequently invade or try and destroy the Earth as barbaric or militaristic and never seems to give them a better option. And yet he seems frustrated by humanity's need to be saved from all the evil aliens trying to consume them or threatens their existence.

 

This episode highlighted that issue. The Doctor proclaims himself the Guardian and protector of Earth but he doesn't stick around to guide humanity through the rough spots but shows up randomly to complain about the humans attempt to solve their own problems. It makes me wonder whether he wants humanity to grow up because we never get to see the 3rd and bountiful human empire, just the slave Oods that go a-slaughtering and the tv station where the Dalek's massacre millions off screen. I want to see the middle part of this human empire he's always going to great lengths to preserve. We see modern times and earlier and we've seen the end of the universe as humanity scrambles to find sanctuary but we're missing a huge chunk of time in the middle where humanity is competent and independent. It's like the Doctor doesn't want to see humanity succeeding because then he can't be smug and save the day. 

 

Every episode of this season makes it harder for me to like or even understand what the Doctor is doing. 

Edited October 8, 2014 by wayne67

[companionenvy]

In fairness,  the Doctor has lived for a long time, and even people with much shorter life spans are hardly consistent. Ten was over a thousand years younger than Twelve, after all. But I do agree that, so far, Twelve has acted too unDoctorish for my liking as well. I actually thought he was at his MOST recognizable in this episode, in a lot of ways, although leaving Clara in precisely that way was unprecedented.

 

I would actually love it, though, if the show dealt in some sustained way with the Doctor's character development, rather than just hand-waving it as a result of regeneration. Nine was different from previous Doctor's, but the Time War gave us a good explanation for that. Ten was very different from Nine, but in a way that I thought grew directly out of the end of Nine's life - he had come to just enough level of acceptance with himself and what he had done that he could at least mask the pain far better, and sometimes even over-corrected to the point of obnoxiousness (especially with Rose). Ten to Eleven was less dramatic, even though they are certainly distinct. 

 

But Twelve is REALLY different from Eleven, and I'd like some exploration of why. I mean, some really major things have happened between the last two regenerations. The Doctor found out that he hadn't committed genocide against his own people, and that Gallifrey was still out there somewhere. The Doctor gained a whole new set of regenerations, rendering him, it seems, effectively immortal (which at least got mentioned this episode). He also aged by centuries, almost all of it spent away from Earth. Any or all of those things could be used to explain why Twelve is, not to put to fine a point on it, being a total dick most of the time, but that's something that needs to play out on screen and be part of a character arc. Maybe it will, eventually - I'm really looking forward to seeing what Capaldi is like once he gets a new companion. I actually didn't like Ten much during his first season; I think it is harder to warm up to a new Doctor when the old companion is still there to magnify the differences. 

[Llywela]

Thank you for the synopsis of the Doctors' regenerations.   When I read the part I  highlighted about the 3rd Doctor, I first snarked to myself about how 10 blamed poor Wilf before saving him; then I thought about how far had the writers had messed up the Doctor's character.

I remember being enraged by that at the time. I know everyone will say it was in-character for the oh-so-human 10th Doctor, but I always felt it was a choice made by the writers that did the character a disservice. When I think of the dignity with which the 3rd Doctor faced his end, or how hard the 5th Doctor fought, not for his own life but for that of a companion he'd only just met and barely knew, knowingly sacrificing his own chance of healing without hesitation...well, it doesn't cast the 10th Doctor's drawn-out end into a good light at all, however emotive it may have been.

 

But I don't get on with that kind of dragged-out melodrama in any show. I find understated emotion far more moving than overstated.

But Twelve is REALLY different from Eleven, and I'd like some exploration of why. I mean, some really major things have happened between the last two regenerations. The Doctor found out that he hadn't committed genocide against his own people, and that Gallifrey was still out there somewhere. The Doctor gained a whole new set of regenerations, rendering him, it seems, effectively immortal (which at least got mentioned this episode). He also aged by centuries, almost all of it spent away from Earth. Any or all of those things could be used to explain why Twelve is, not to put to fine a point on it, being a total dick most of the time, but that's something that needs to play out on screen and be part of a character arc. Maybe it will, eventually - I'm really looking forward to seeing what Capaldi is like once he gets a new companion. I actually didn't like Ten much during his first season; I think it is harder to warm up to a new Doctor when the old companion is still there to magnify the differences. 

Yes, quite. The show is crying out for some development of the 12th Doctor now, has been for most of the series so far - we're halfway through the series, we should be seeing more than just one aspect of him! I mean, people keep saying this is an attempt to remake the kind of developmental arc the 1st Doctor went through or the kind of story that was intended for the 6th Doctor, but they were both far more advanced than this by now! Six adventures into his era, the 1st Doctor had well and truly warmed up and developed a wonderfully familial relationship with his reluctant human companions, after their initial poor impression of him they'd seen the layers peeled back to reveal how much more he was beneath. And even the much-maligned 6th Doctor, by the time we were six adventures into his era, we were seeing so much more to him than the obnoxious personality that first came across. That's what Capaldi's Doctor is crying out for: to have the layers peeled back on his personality to show that he is more than just one thing - to have his perspective explored. I don't think it necessarily needs to be impossible to warm up to him because he's inherited a companion from his predecessor. The 4th Doctor inherited Sarah Jane from the 3rd and they bonded almost immediately - their relationship is delightful from the start, and Sarah really came into her own with him. But what's needed is balance. That's what's missing from this season. We're so focused on Clara's side of the story, we aren't seeing the Doctor's at all, and I don't understand why because surely it would strengthen the story if we understood both of their points of view. I mean, on paper it's a bold, brave choice to tell the story of a companion who rejects the new Doctor because she can't adjust to a new regeneration, but that story needs to be told in a way that's sympathetic to them both. It would make Clara's dilemma stronger, surely, if we as viewers could see both sides and empathise with both characters, yet the personality clash was too great for Clara to continue. Did the writers feel there was no way we'd empathise with her rejecting the new Doctor unless they pushed him into the background and made him utterly socially inept? If so, they've done both him and us a disservice.

 

Clara leaving the Doctor in tears in this episode reminded me strongly of Tegan's second exit. She'd been rather a reluctant adventurer from the start who chose to stay aboard the TARDIS because she'd grown fond of everyone there, but eventually the horrors she witnessed became too much and she just couldn't take it any more, ran away in tears leaving the Doctor distraught that they should part under such a cloud after everything they'd been through together. And, you know, the '80s got a lot wrong, their early attempt at telling character stories was often clunky and ill-developed, but Tegan's exit was so much stronger than Clara's outburst here, and that was because we could see both sides of the story. We could understand entirely why Tegan snapped and ran, she just couldn't take any more - but we could also understand how distressing it was for the Doctor to see his friend run from him like that, after he'd fought so hard to do the right thing and save lives. The losses weren't his fault yet he felt punished for them - both points of view come across so strongly, so movingly. And, you know, when the '80s is telling a better character story than 2014, you know something is wrong!

Edited October 8, 2014 by Llywela

[John Potts]

Wayne67 Does anyone find it weird that the Doctor completely undermined Harriet Jones who was a duly elected government official operating under concern that the alien race that just left would come back when the Doctor wasn't around to cause more havoc and chaos? And yet he wants Clara to make a decision that affects an entire planet because it's hers even though no one elected her to be a representative and she ignored the people involved anyway... He just gave Clara veto power over the Earth based on? nothing that I can comprehend. 

 

Well, he did the same thing in the Silurian episode (Hungry Earth) where he appointed the people on the spot to carve up the Earth between them and they chose to give to the Silurians whole swathes of territory that not only weren't theirs to dispose of but didn't even belong to their country! (The Sahara and Nevada, IIRC) But even if my sensibilities meant that I felt they came to the "right" choice, I do feel that, once Clara put the decision to the vote, she was oblidged to follow that decision, whatever her misgivings.

 

As for the bad science - well, the moon creature could have been gaining mass via some sort of wormhole (as I said earlier, Runs on Handwavium science!). Of course nothing on Earth does that, but in a Universe of living suns and humans that can give birth to regenerating daughters, who's to say it's so farfetched? Actually, laying the egg was less of a problem since the moon having roughly quadroupled its mass (to establish Earth gravity on the moon) then reverted to its original mass, so most of the "new" mass disappeared into the creature. It had to somehow fit it into the same space, but hey, the Tardis does dimensional folding all the time!

 

Of course, it'd be nice if the episode mentioned something like that.

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppliedPhlebotinum

[LadyArcadia]

I don't understand the whole "Clara ignored the world" outrage. As she said, there is a moon there (yeah, the Doc said it could be a projection, painting, etc. but you could tell Clara didn't believe that), and she knew that the Earth and humans exist after 2049, which they wouldn't if the decision either way made a difference since humans don't branch out into space until after 2049. Given that the outcome of her decision doesn't make a difference, choosing to save the moon creature opposed to murdering it is the moral way to go - killing something that isn't going to harm you is just a douche thing to do. The writers put in the panic for nothing once you suss out the logic based on what Clara herself knows, which the Doctor gave her the chance to use. In some ways, he's testing her out - he doesn't have much of a memory at this point, it seems.

I don't care for the writing overall this season, though. I don't think they're writing Capaldi to the best of his abilities.

 

That's another thing that pissed me off about the episode (it's a long list). 

 

"Time can be rewritten"  - Quote said to every companion in the NuWho era.

 

She's been a companion long enough to know this.

 

There are things about Ten that I do not like, but I still can watch the majority of those seasons.  This season, I can't even seem to recall plots from previous episodes as if even my trivia fueled brain doesn't care.

 

 

I'm rewatching the entire NuWho series.  Just finished up the Queen Victoria/werewolf episode.  All it's doing is making me remember how far better this show used to be.

 

I've rewatched 9-11's episodes multiple times.  I have no desire to rewatch any of 12's episodes.  None.

Edited October 8, 2014 by LadyArcadia

[elle]

Episodes like these remind me that I really should keep repeating this to myself :0)

 

If you're wondering how he eats and breathes
And other science facts,
Just repeat to yourself "It's just a show,
I should really just relax

 

(for the record, I've been enjoying reading all the science and cultural comments that have been posted here)

[LoneHaranguer]

 

It's like the Doctor doesn't want to see humanity succeeding because then he can't be smug and save the day.

The same could apply to this episode. When Bad Wolf said she could see all that was, is, and could be, Nine said it was the same for him, and commented "doesn't it drive you mad?". This could have been a case where looking at the potential consequences was just too much for the Doctor and he couldn't be sure what to do, so he bailed rather than risk looking bad if his decision turned disastrous. Once things turned out well, he got to come back with a "good job, knew you could do it" attitude. If things hadn't worked out, he would have pulled out platitudes about mistakes being inevitable if humanity was going to learn and grow.

[wayne67]

This could have been a case where looking at the potential consequences was just too much for the Doctor and he couldn't be sure what to do, so he bailed rather than risk looking bad if his decision turned disastrous.

 

 

Possibly, except this Doctor doesn't seem overly concerned with anyone's opinions of him and even if he was, he endangered an entire school last episode with a killer robot thinking in his arrogance that in a school full of children and staff that noone would notice strange metal devices stuck in random places. He's never really let himself be accountable to humanity/anyone for his actions through time and space.

 

The only thing I've gotten from this Doctor personality wise is he's grumpy, bitter and possibly nihilistic with a weary sense of obligation to help humanity because that's what he does. There doesn't seem to be any joy in this Doctor that I've seen.

 

But Twelve is REALLY different from Eleven, and I'd like some exploration of why. I mean, some really major things have happened between the last two regenerations. The Doctor found out that he hadn't committed genocide against his own people, and that Gallifrey was still out there somewhere. The Doctor gained a whole new set of regenerations, rendering him, it seems, effectively immortal (which at least got mentioned this episode). He also aged by centuries, almost all of it spent away from Earth. Any or all of those things could be used to explain why Twelve is, not to put to fine a point on it, being a total dick most of the time, but that's something that needs to play out on screen and be part of a character arc. Maybe it will, eventually - I'm really looking forward to seeing what Capaldi is like once he gets a new companion. I actually didn't like Ten much during his first season; I think it is harder to warm up to a new Doctor when the old companion is still there to magnify the differences.

 

 

It's not that the Doctor is different that bothers me, it's that he's radically different and no one seems to be calling him out on it and no conversation feels forthcoming about the reasons. Even with New Doctor/Old Companion I've never felt such a disconnect between understanding the Doctor, sometimes I didn't like the characters choices (Harriet Jones, most of the Silurian episodes, the rebel flesh, leaving River behind in a library when he could upload her personality in a robot or something, ditching Jack Harkness) but I could appreciate his reasoning. Currently I have no sense of why the Doctor is doing anything. I don't know what his current likes/dislikes are. I don't really know who this person is and Clara even with extra screen time devoted to her can't carry the show since she only seemed to develop a personality this season and it's not compelling whatever it is.

 

*sigh* it's just a show, it's just a show. I think I'll pick it up next season and hope it improves then. Doctor Who used to be great, it used to have consequences and tough decisions and people growing together, now it's just snark and characters who are enigmas that hand wave and have happy endings appropos of nothing. 

[tv-talk]

Currently I have no sense of why the Doctor is doing anything. I don't know what his current likes/dislikes are.

 

 

Yeah, what's really noticeable to me is that despite the season being many episodes past the regeneration you cant actually tell that the Doctor even knows who he was at any previous time. I mean aside from a few jokes (like saying a scarf looks stupid) you dont get any sense that he was ever any of the previous Doctors. It's an odd feeling that I dont think I've ever had watching any previous Doctors. It's like 12 has no idea who he is yet the story doesnt seem to be telling us this is the case. The past several episodes there's been no allusion to 12 having any issues (oh, except night terrors solved/caused by Clara) but there is no sense that anything is currently wrong with the Doctor- this is just who he is now. I dont understand why the writers went about it in this way unless their take on who 12 should be is exactly what we're seeing and in fact there is no hidden dynamic going on that is going to change.