S04.E01: A Tale Of Two Sisters

[angelwoody]

I was fairly tipsy when I watched the episode last night but I was very underwhelmed.

I thought the Aendelle scenes were beautiful, but they looked like a different show.

I thought the snow monster was pretty lame, but thought the troll was pretty good.

The contrived CaptainSwan angst was annoying but expected.

I was sad about the lack of Snowing. Henry irritates me.

Regina... I just can't. The Regina/Emma door scene was so ridiculous! I hated it. They are totally just like Elsa & Anna... Yeah sure.

Robin is a total loser and is Robin Hood in name only. Way to ruin an epic love story, writers!

I liked Marion speaking truth to evil. She must be wondering if everyone is under some kind of Regina Appreciation spell...

The Frozen stuff awash pretty well done but I'd have rather spent time with the residents of Storybrooke.

And, finally, I haven't yet read Cindy McLennon's recap, but I'm glad she's doing it. I'm don't love the recapping style here. I do enjoy the style for shows I don't watch, and I've tried out a few of Al Lowe's mysteries but for shows I love, I want the full treatment. :)

[Camera One]

I get that Ginny was less than 6 weeks from having her baby when this was filmed, so I understand that availability was limited, but seriously, couldn't we have at least gotten some more David (preferably without the wig)?

 

Sadly, baby or no baby, Ginny and Josh would have been sidelined in this episode since they're not "Frozen", nor a budding romance, nor a love triangle, nor a sick warped chipped teacup of a relationship.  I can't believe one of Charming's few lines last night was musing "Maybe we should have gone with Baelfire."  

 

Did Snow and Charming find out who Marion was in the diner?  I don't remember them finding out in the Season 3 finale about Marion/Regina/Robin at all, and when they came out of the diner onto the Regina/Robin/Marion confrontation, I wasn't sure if they knew or didn't.  Adam and Eddy pissed me off right from the beginning by giving Snow the line they forced upon her over and over again in 3B: "Regina, are you alright?"  I forgot to mention that above, but that was another indication that they did not read any real critiques of their writing in 3B.

 

 

 

Kristoff's demeanor didn't match up for me at all. He was more earnest and more bumbling really in the movie.

 

That's exactly how I felt.  His hair was also very distracting.  I'm hoping he grows on me.  It would have helped to have a scene with him and Anna together before she left.

 

I was just thinking... I had always assumed the Enchanted Forest was a realm, a world, which contained many Kingdoms.  But in this episode, it looks like people in Arendelle sees the Enchanted Forest as another place in their "world" (since Anna was going there by ship, not by portal).  So what is this world that encompasses the Enchanted Forest and Arendelle called then?  Zelena told Glinda she'd send her over to the Enchanted Forest, for example.

 

Another thing - basically, Arendelle is like Norway and the "Enchanted Forest" aka Misthaven is like Europe.  So Anna is going to go to Medieval Europe, and she will ask random people if they knew her parents, who had been planning to go there 5 years ago?  Good luck with that.  There are going to be coincidences up the wazoo from here on out.  As I mentioned in another thread, I'm expecting Anna to meet Bandit Snow, the Evil Queen and the Dark One, since apparently everyone in the Enchanted Forest encounters those three.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

His hair was also very distracting.

I thought his hair was intentionally supposed to be kind of bad....

[Curio]

I forgot to mention this in my initial post about the episode, but I really loved the way Hook delivered the line, "Right, of course. Go ahead. Don't tell me you're not avoiding me anymore because I'm actually quite perceptive. And this? This is avoiding me." If you straight read those words on paper, it could have easily come off as Hook sounding mean or accusatory (or I guess clingy). Yet, that whole dialogue exchange was actually kind of cute and a highlight of the episode for me (and I'm not even including the kiss part or the Netflix reference). He just added the perfect amount of sarcasm to let Emma know he's not entirely blaming her, but then he couples his line delivery with the goofy hand motion as he points at himself and it's enough to make Emma smile, even though he's essentially calling her out on her bullshit. I don't mind if the writers keep handling their "angst" this season if they keep it subdued like that. (Ha, like these writers would ever let that happen.)

[Camera One]

I thought his hair was intentionally supposed to be kind of bad....

 

The hair was a little unkempt in the movie, but it didn't look weird like this.

 

I was just thinking back to the Storybrooke plot with Elsa, and as usual, the current-day plotline was so weak.  So she goes into Mr. Gold's shop, and we don't get to see her confront him, since it was just to get Anna's necklace even though she wouldn't have known it was there?  

 

So it looks like nobody has watched "Frozen", since no one recognized the ice trail or the snow monster.  Instead of having a heartfelt talk with Regina behind a door, wouldn't Emma have gone to Belle (for books), Blue, or Gold to find out what mythical creatures had Freeze power?  I can't wait for Episode 2 when Mary Margaret interviews the Abdominable Snowman as prospective nanny.

 

The "honeymoon" was so segregated from the rest of the episode.  When did Belle have time to take a hike to find the abandoned house?  When Zelena was out and about terrorizing everyone?

Edited September 30, 2014 by Camera One

[Dani-Ellie]

Speaking of the abandoned mansion in the woods, do we know if that was the Cecil Green Park House? The interiors were pinging my Harper's Island fangirl radar as the interiors of the Candlewick Inn.

[Amerilla]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was the Cecil Green Park House, Dani-Elle. I remember it from some filming spoilers.

[Dani-Ellie]

Aha, thought so! Thanks. :)

[kili]

So she goes into Mr. Gold's shop, and we don't get to see her confront him, since it was just to get Anna's necklace even though she wouldn't have known it was there?

 

She knew it was there because she saw it in the photo in the newspaper announcing their wedding. It showed Belle and Rumple standing in the shop with the necklace in the frame. The newspaper was garbage in the boat yard that flitted around when the snow monster bellowed at Emma and Hook.

[Camera One]

Thanks.  I was going to freeze-frame, but I forgot.  Can't believe I just said I was planning to freeze-frame this show.  Lock me in the looney bin under Storybrooke Hospital.

 

Anyway, stealing back Anna's necklace still seemed like a rather lame climax.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

Lock me in the looney bin under Storybrooke Hospital.

Don't worry, Regina will absolutely not at all forget about you! ;)

[kili]

Anyway, stealing back Anna's necklace still seemed like a rather lame climax.
 

Most of the junk in Gold's shop is from the people who are in Storybrooke (exceptions being Eric's cloak (that may have been an item Zeelena planted) and Hook's telescope (which may have gotten lost/taken in the "ditch my crew" escapade).

 

So, maybe that necklace indicates that Anna is in Storybrooke. Maybe they reminded us about the Looney Bin because that is where Anna is. Maybe she was locked in there by somebody evil.

 

I think we are definitely meant to know that she crossed paths with somebody.

[Shanna Marie]

So it looks like nobody has watched "Frozen", since no one recognized the ice trail or the snow monster.

According to the idiots in charge, in the show's timeline, it's still spring of 2013, so the first trailer for Frozen hasn't even come out yet. They're not in sync with our time because 3A took place in about a week, then there was the Missing Year and then 3B took place in maybe a week and a half to two weeks. That's after all of season two took place in what seemed to be maybe a couple of months, and 3A picked up immediately afterward. At this pace, even with entire years during the breaks it will take them a while to catch up with us.

 

When did Belle have time to take a hike to find the abandoned house?  When Zelena was out and about terrorizing everyone?

Yeah, you've got to wonder about that, since they've been back maybe two weeks and they specifically said that the house was new in this curse. So I guess Belle was still making a point of taking her morning hike, regardless of wicked witches, flying monkeys, her boyfriend being held prisoner, her boyfriend's son dying, needing to do research on time travel spells, or snow on the ground. She really has her priorities in order.

[Camera One]

She seemed confident the house hadn't been "claimed" yet, so it sounds like she was stalking the house.  So she just walked right in and wandered around?  The Flying Monkeys just got reverted back to their human forms the night before.  Did she not think that maybe the house belongs to one of them?

 

Hey, why not have your honeymoon in Zelena's farmhouse?  I heard it on the market now.

[Tripp]

I did think it weird Belle and Rumple would wander into a strange house.  Considering the history of this town, anything new popping up without prior explanation should be approached hesitantly.

[Mari]

  The Flying Monkeys just got reverted back to their human forms the night before.  Did she not think that maybe the house belongs to one of them?

Belle might know things like the etymology of serendipity, but logic, ethics, and consequences are things she just takes fleeting glances at.

[KingOfHearts]

 

According to the idiots in charge, in the show's timeline, it's still spring of 2013, so the first trailer for Frozen hasn't even come out yet.

Which is totally incorrect. It's at least Fall 2013 at bare minimum. If Emma met Neal in 2001, and Henry is 12 now, then the very soonest the present could be is very late September 2013. So yeah, Frozen promos would be out at the very least.

 

 

Hey, why not have your honeymoon in Zelena's farmhouse?  I heard it on the market now.

Just days after Zelena was making out with Rumple in it? Ew.

Edited September 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

She seemed confident the house hadn't been "claimed" yet, so it sounds like she was stalking the house.

In the "boring," everyday world of stuff we never get to see, I like to think Storybrooke's residents are so used to realm-hopping that they have a system for trying to match random crap to owners totally down. Storybrookelist, perhaps. Granny, natch, is the moderator.

 

Which is totally incorrect. It's at least Fall 2013 at bare minimum. If Emma met Neal in 2001, and Henry is 12 now, then the very soonest the present could be is very late September 2013.

Henry's age has been a problem since the pilot, where he was already 10 on Emma's 28th birthday despite Emma giving birth at 18. We should've known then that basic math and timelines were never, ever, ever going to be a strong suit.

[MDKNIGHT]

 

I want Emma to recognize that Hook's happiness matters too, which I'm not really seeing right now (nor did I see that in 3B), while Hook is all about Emma's happiness.

 

I'm OK with Captain Swan being end game.  The guy is handsome and 90% of the time he's been a good guy BUT I object to the idea that Emma is (a) responsible for anybody's happiness (not just Hook's) because grownups are not responsible for anybody else's happiness and (b)  that somehow if somebody loves you a lot you are under an obligation to love them back.  It's stalker mentality.  Don't get me wrong I expect the writing to bare out that Emma does love and is in love with Hook but the reasoning that she kind of OWES it to him because he loves her so much  is creepy.  It is the kind of thinking that leads to people killing someone because they "soooo" loved them and they were going to leave them "after all I did for him/her."  Doesn't work that way.  And when you add the thinking that she OWES him SEX as well as love because she's "teasing" him  it goes to new depths of squick for me.  So let the writers get Captian Swan in bed because it is a popular ship and because they don't want the heroine to be gay or bi and because they do have chemistry but please don't make it about anybody owing anybody anything.  As far as I'm concerned if she never slept with him she wouldn't be doing anything wrong.  She didn't negotiate with him that she'd sleep with him if he gave up the Jolly Roger for her.  It was his decision and if he expects (as opposed to wishes for) sex or her love in return, then he isn't as in love as he says he is. 

[InsertWordHere]

I don't even know what the hell they're thinking with Regina anymore. She almost belongs on that thing that my friends with kids keep passing around Facebook about "reasons my toddler is crying."

I give you Reasons Why Regina is Crying.

[KarateKate]

Cappie from Greek as Kristof! 

I think I missed the rest of the episode being embarrassed at crushing on him. I'm a grown woman, for heaven's sake!

[Rumsy4]

I'm OK with Captain Swan being end game.  The guy is handsome and 90% of the time he's been a good guy BUT I object to the idea that Emma is (a) responsible for anybody's happiness (not just Hook's) because grownups are not responsible for anybody else's happiness and (b)  that somehow if somebody loves you a lot you are under an obligation to love them back.  It's stalker mentality.  Don't get me wrong I expect the writing to bare out that Emma does love and is in love with Hook but the reasoning that she kind of OWES it to him because he loves her so much  is creepy.  It is the kind of thinking that leads to people killing someone because they "soooo" loved them and they were going to leave them "after all I did for him/her."  Doesn't work that way.  And when you add the thinking that she OWES him SEX as well as love because she's "teasing" him  it goes to new depths of squick for me.  So let the writers get Captian Swan in bed because it is a popular ship and because they don't want the heroine to be gay or bi and because they do have chemistry but please don't make it about anybody owing anybody anything.  As far as I'm concerned if she never slept with him she wouldn't be doing anything wrong.  She didn't negotiate with him that she'd sleep with him if he gave up the Jolly Roger for her.  It was his decision and if he expects (as opposed to wishes for) sex or her love in return, then he isn't as in love as he says he is. 

 

Okay, you're reading way too much into my remark. In the words of Mr. Darcy, "You expect me to account for opinions which you chuse to call mine, but which I have never acknowledged." Where did I say that Emma is responsible for Hook's happiness, or that she is obligated to love him back, or that she owes him sex?? Scratching my head there.

 

When two people are in a relationship, they will automatically want the other person to be happy. The SHOW thinks, or Emma thinks, that she is responsible for bringing people their Happy Endings. If she is going to attempt to bring people their Happy Endings, she should start with one of Regina's thousands of victims, or someone closer to home. 

 

It is an unequal relationship where one half of the partnership provides all the encouragement and support, while the other half does not. I merely expressed a desire for Emma to root for Killian as much as he does for her. I do think Captain Swan is endgame, and I feel that Emma does care for Hook, and may even be in love with him already, but as of now, their "relationship" seems a bit unequal. She is not OBLIGATED to feel any particular way, but I desire for Emma and Hook to be the kind of couple where they BOTH care about each other's happiness and feelings, and so on. This is just the first episode of the Season, so I'm not crying for them to True Love Kiss and have babies right away. But I do think that Emma has taken a step back from where she was with Hook in the season finale. It is because I see them being endgame, that I'm hoping for more progress rather than more manufactured angst. I'm not demanding that Emma should give in to Hook because Hook "deserves" it. I just don't want to see Emma regress and put her walls up again like she did in 3B. That is all.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Rumsy4

[formerlyfreedom]

Seems like a good time to remind everyone of this from David T. Cole's Welcome announcement:
 

The Social Contract
My golden rule for forums is to pretend you are at someone else's party. Different opinions are welcomed and debate is encouraged but if you can't converse without name calling or flaming then you'll get The Size Nines out the door.

 
Lines have not been crossed at this point, so let's definitely continue the healthy discussion that's been happening, and not read into or try to interpret someone else's post. Our thanks!

[MDKNIGHT]

My protest was not directed to one single comment or to one single poster.  It is in response to a cumulative POV that has included calling Emma a prick tease and zeroing in on how Emma is wrong in her actions specifically  because Hook has done so much for her, implying she owes him something. It is also in response to the episode itself in which Emma says she's responsible for everybody's happiness including Regina.  She isn't, and the writers shouldn't imply she is.  I hope that eventually she is written to understand that Regina, the Charmings Hook etc are responsible for thier own damned happiness, since I think her current stance is unhealthy.   I do agree a healthy relationship is a mutual thing but disagree that it's a mandatory thing for the relationship to exist because of the actions of one half of the couple.  That being said I don't want Hook to die before Emma expresses she loves him, IF she does indeed love him,  which I'm betting she does.  I don't have a problem with Hook.  I disagree with some POV's about Captain Swan the relationship. 

 

I also hope that the writers are aware that the way they write Rumpbelle is unhealthy.  This ep brought up his lying and his abuse of his magical powers (the freezing her) and just plain manipulation of Belle.  We will have to wait and see if the writing shows that the writers know this isn't a healthy relationship to route for, but honestly I think Belle will be mad at him for 5 seconds and then we'll find out she's pregnant and we'll be told that all he needs to be "good" is another shot at fatherhood. 

Edited September 30, 2014 by MDKNIGHT

[Rumsy4]

My protest was not directed to one single comment or to one single poster.  It is in response to a cumulative POV that has included calling Emma a prick tease and zeroing in on how Emma is wrong in her actions specifically  because Hook has done so much for her, implying she owes him something.   

 

Since you specifically quoted my post, I took your response as directed at mine. 

 

I do agree a healthy relationship is a mutual thing but disagree that it's a mandatory thing for the relationship to exist because of the actions of one half of the couple.  

 

I just want to make clear that that is not my take on CS, nor have I expressed such an opinion. I neither think she owes him something (beyond politeness), nor do I think that it is mandatory that they get together because of what Hook did for her. I saw potential from both sides starting from Season 3, and that's when I started shipping them. If the writers keep having Emma avoid Hook or giving him brush-offs, Hook is going to start looking desperate, and Emma uncaring. I don't want to see Hook trying to call her out whenever she pulls back. If Emma cares for Hook (which I think she does), I want her to show it voluntarily (as she did in the S3 finale), rather than because he is pushing her to hang out with him (which he is not) or because Mary Margaret is teasing her. 

Edited September 30, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Jlina]

 

Hook is going to start looking desperate, and Emma uncaring

 

 

This is already the case to me - especially the Emma uncaring part. She has grown to expect him to be her puppy dog. Not a good choice for a relationship between equals. No, she does not owe him anything but did in fact, ask him to wait so she's implying that she will at some point be ready for a relationship. Which is waaay out of line if it's not true.

 

 If I were Hook, I'd be out of there.  Then again, the fact that Hook was in love with Rumple's wife first (oh, and best friends or father figure or something! with Emma's baby daddy)  kind of creeps me out so badly I've always hoped they will not be the end game.  In the pictures of the show premiere in real life, Hook looked really good without the eye liner.  Much more handsome.

 

However, this continuous lets ignore our main characters and throw new situations in every season/chance we get whilst never resolving anything at all between them is so annoying, I'd really have rather watched a season of Emma and Henry in New York and her falling in love with a flying monkey.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Jlina

[Artsda]

I do agree, there needs to be more balance to the Emma/Hook relationship. It can't be all Hook giving (following her into the portal/Giving up Jolly Roger) and all Emma running/taking. It will make Hook look pathetic and un-pirate if he's always begging her. She does come across as "cold" so may be the writers know that and will tie that in with Elsa? 

 

However, I  do think that since this is the just the day after the kiss in the diner that she could be turning around and coming to him but they won't do it immediately since she's so not used to being happy. having people love her and stick around. That they'll slowly get her there. 

Edited September 30, 2014 by Artsda

[AudienceofOne]

She does come across as "cold" so may be the writers know that and will tie that in with Elsa?

 

 

That's what I'm worried about. Emma is exactly the kind of person that Elsa is based on - someone who, because of societal isolation and rejection, has closed themselves off from the love of family (and love generally). The problem is that framing her this way would be a step backwards after last season. We've already seen her go through this journey. I needed to see it but I don't need to see it again.

[FabulousTater]

I do agree, there needs to be more balance to the Emma/Hook relationship.

I think it would be most helpful if they were actually IN a relationship first of all, before we start complaining about "balance". They clearly have feelings for each other, but sweet baby james, they haven't even gone on their first date yet let alone broached the subject of exploring an actual relationship. They shared their first "we have feelings for each other" kiss not but 12-18 hours ago, so I think it's premature to label Emma as cold or unfeeling if she isn't fawning over Hook the next day. And really, if they had written her as being all over Hook it would've been grossly out of character, IMO.

 

Back in late S2 and early S3, we reamed Douchefire (and the writers) for having insta-feelings when it came to his sudden forgetfulness of his evil fiancé, Tamara, and instead being all "But Emma baby, I did it for your own good 'cause I love you".  But if Emma isn't on Hook like white on rice, despite the fact that just 1-2 weeks ago she was happily considering marrying another guy, then she's cold, unfeeling, and a tease? That doesn't seem right.

 

Ya, I get that Emma was for whatever reason brushing Hook off only hours after that kiss the night before, but he called her on her behavior and she owned up to it and asked for some patience. She didn't get her back up or get snippy, which would've probably been her response in prior seasons. In actuality, through the whole scene, Emma was pretty happy and smiling with Hook, she kissed him and asked for some patience. I just don't see that at all as being cold. That is far from it in fact. Also note that Hook didn't have to oblige her if he didn't want to. If he doesn't want to wait anymore he can walk away. He's got all the free will in the world, so I don't consider him to be a kicked puppy or some sort of other pathetic nonsense (which I wouldn't want him to be).  I have way more respect for the character than that and see that he's a grown ass man making his own choices and as of right now he's chosen to stick with Emma, whatever that may entail. Unfortunately for him, what that entails is a lot of patience.

 

And look, it may have been a year (and then some) for Hook that he was pining for Emma, but for her it has only been 1-2 weeks since she was living a happy amnesia laced life (with boyfriend and everything) in NYC, so she's just not going to be as far along with her feelings as he is. That's just the situation. And really, I'd rather Emma come to it all in her own time and the relationship be built organically (well, as much as that's possible with this show) than the writers treat her like a damn light switch like they have been for the last two seasons. And tbh, I'm youtube-ing this show -- I'm only watching (via youtube clips) the parts of the show with Emma, so I couldn't even tell you what happened with Regina. I have no fucks left to give about Woegina, a.k.a. The Enchanted Forest's very own Pol Pot, and based on the comments here about all that I'm very happy with my youtube viewing (and also that means that last night's episode was about 5 minutes long for me!) -- so Emma's scenes, be they with Hook, or her parents, or Elsa, those scenes better be amazing and enjoyable and organic. That's all I'm asking for, Show (which I realize is probably way, way, waaaay too much to ask for).

Edited September 30, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Rumsy4]

I don't think Emma comes across as cold now, but she did seem to pull back a bit from the night before. Which I fear is for some contrived reason to do with Elsa, and not really organic to the Show. I know this may not end up being the case, but that's awfully how the writing in this show goes. I do recognize that it has been but a day, but in my mind, the writers intend for Emma's arc to be that she needs to live her live in the midst of crisis (I personally would have run away to NY a long time ago, but I'm not Emma ;-)). So, I think we are going to see Emma pull back from Hook for a bit before we find out this new reason the writers have pulled out of thin air as to why she is "avoiding him".  

[KAOS Agent]

So was anyone else a little upset that Elsa unleashed a deadly snow monster on the innocent town of Storybrooke? What if it had chased Snow and Baby Snowflake and ended up hurting/killing them? Then rather than stopping it, she used it as a distraction to break into Gold's shop. That's a sincerely crappy thing to do to a town full of innocent people who were all running around screaming in terror.

[jhlipton]

The Frozen stuff was pretty well done aside from the ridiculous monster and the rock troll.  Just no.

 

I actually liked both of those. I think they were decent live-action equivalents of the animated ones.

 

On the positive side of things, Anna is freakin' adorable. (I've not seen Frozen, so I have zero idea if Show!Anna is matching up at all with Movie!Anna, but here, she's adorable.)

 

I thought she nailed the speech patterns. Movie!Anna has that bubbly, did I just say that quality that was conveyed perfectly.

 

 

I was just thinking back to the Storybrooke plot with Elsa, and as usual, the current-day plotline was so weak.  So she goes into Mr. Gold's shop, and we don't get to see her confront him, since it was just to get Anna's necklace even though she wouldn't have known it was there?

 

I think she also saw the wedding dress there when she first came to town.

[FurryFury]

nd tbh, I'm youtube-ing this show -- I'm only watching (via youtube clips) the parts of the show with Emma, so I couldn't even tell you what happened with Regina. I have no fucks left to give about Woegina, a.k.a. The Enchanted Forest's very own Pol Pot, and based on the comments here about all that I'm very happy with my youtube viewing (and also that means that last night's episode was about 5 minutes long for me!) -- so Emma's scenes, be they with Hook, or her parents, or Elsa, those scenes better be amazing and enjoyable and organic. That's all I'm asking for, Show (which I realize is probably way, way, waaaay too much to ask for).

 

Well, you can probably watch the Frozen parts, as well. I'm an Emma fan first and foremost, and the episode really was disappointing in this regard, but the Arendelle flashbacks weren't half bad, really. Actually, it could have been an OK episode if not for Regina stuff, which I'm also going to skip from now on, because it's completely horrible and makes me want to punch the screen.

 

So was anyone else a little upset that Elsa unleashed a deadly snow monster on the innocent town of Storybrooke? What if it had chased Snow and Baby Snowflake and ended up hurting/killing them?

 

The writing made a point to tell us (via Hook or Emma, I don't remember) that the snowman (although, really, snowman? That was an ice golem if I ever saw one, and I certainly did, being an avid video gamer) is only attacking things when it feels threatened (like Elsa herself, I guess). So it wouldn't go for Prince Snowflake.

 

Speaking about the golem, I kinda expected it to be electrocuted when it tore through the power lines. It's strange that it had absolutely no effect.

[Dani-Ellie]

A big word to your whole post, FabulousTater, but especially this:

 

And look, it may have been a year (and then some) for Hook that he was pining for Emma, but for her it has only been 1-2 weeks since she was living a happy amnesia laced life (with boyfriend and everything) in NYC, so she's just not going to be as far along with her feelings as he is. That's just the situation.

 

Yes. I remember saying something similar back on TWoP about this very thing. Emma and Hook are not on equal footing anymore. They lost that equal footing the second Emma's bug crossed the town line in "Going Home." For Hook, it's been an agonizing, long, lonely year. For that entire year, Emma didn't even remember that Hook existed. She wasn't pining away for him the same way he was pining for her. He's eager and excited, but she's only had a couple of weeks to try figure everything out. I mean, they shared that kiss, what, twelve hours ago? They're both still trying to feel each other out.

 

And honestly, this is Emma. She's not going to get all happy bubbly in love twelve hours after kissing someone, especially after he tells her he gave up his home to get her to hers. She's going to freak out, because omg this is flippin' serious, and that's what I saw her doing. Big life-changing decisions are not easy for her, and taking the chance on Hook could end in any manner of awful ways, just like every other chance she's taken with a guy. And all of two weeks ago, she was considering marrying someone who turned out to be a flying monkey (and the Wizard of Oz, but I don't think she knows that ;)). I think Emma being a little gunshy isn't outside the realm of possibility.

 

She didn't say no, she said "please be patient with me." And frankly, I think Hook gets how she is and knew she was freaking out, which was why in the end, all he wanted was for her to admit she was avoiding him. She was running again but she didn't get as far this time, which I think is a testament to both her and him.

[Rumsy4]

There's nothing wrong with wanting a TV romance to proceed just a little bit faster, especially when most of the roadblocks are externally generated (like Walsh). People can both understand where Hook and Emma are coming from, and yet wish for a different pace. It's really quite possible to look at the characters as people, AND products of the writing. ;-)

[FurryFury]

Yes. I remember saying something similar back on TWoP about this very thing. Emma and Hook are not on equal footing anymore. They lost that equal footing the second Emma's bug crossed the town line in "Going Home."

 

I think you're right. I stopped shipping CS during 3B, and this inequality is the reason. It's just so unappealing when one partner is so dependent on the other. Not to the Rumbelle extent (that ship has a lot of other problems as well), but it kinda cheapens Hook as a character. I still think they are the best ongoing romance on the show (a title not hard to achieve when your competition are Rumbelle and Outlaw Queen...) and I think I could be persuaded to root for them again, but only if they make Hook a character in his own right, not Emma's appendage for emotional support. 

[YaddaYadda]

She didn't say no, she said "please be patient with me." And frankly, I think Hook gets how she is and knew she was freaking out, which was why in the end, all he wanted was for her to admit she was avoiding him. She was running again but she didn't get as far this time, which I think is a testament to both her and him.

 

He certainly seemed to get that whatever is going on right now goes beyond Regina.  Wonder if the ghost of one dead might have been boyfriend, one dead ex-boyfriend and one simian with wings boyfriend isn't rearing it's ugly head. 

 

Upon re-watch though, especially with that Netflix line (because chilling on the couch with pop corn watching tv is the most normal, don't have to think about anything thing), he just seemed to want something normal, like just hang out. 

 

I'm also pleased that he still doesn't give two f***s about Regina.

[Rumsy4]

I think you're right. I stopped shipping CS during 3B, and this inequality is the reason. It's just so unappealing when one partner is so dependent on the other.

I don't blame you--I came close after the "one-hand" remark. I don't know if I would call Hook as dependant on Emma though. He is head over heels in love and committed to her. As for Emma, while I think she is in love with him, is not there yet. Which makes it a very unequal romance right now. Yeah--Emma has a million walls, etc., but Hook has his own issues too. He too needs emotional support and caring. We know Hook thinks she's his True Love, and that he would go to the end of the world or time for her. Emma's not even close to being at that place (and she may never be).

That kiss was a cute moment, but there was a definite step-back from the night before for a reason that "Emma cannot reveal right away" so the angst can be prolonged. The writing is just so on the nose that I'm unable to immerse myself in the narrative fully. My mind keeps thinking of the writing choices. I want Emma's side of things to become more balanced this season. Otherwise I cannot keep rooting for them as a couple.

[elle]

So it looks like nobody has watched "Frozen", since no one recognized the ice trail or the snow monster.  

I didn't remember Elsa having an ice trail in the movie "Frozen". 

 

 

I can't wait for Episode 2 when Mary Margaret interviews the Abdominable Snowman as prospective nanny.

Aw, Marshmallow is an old softy at heart.  And really, when you think of it, he would be a great bodyguard for the littlest Charming.

[kingshearte]

In the pictures of the show premiere in real life, Hook looked really good without the eye liner.  Much more handsome.

That man gets prettier? Oh my.

 

I did kind of feel, watching this episode, that I was likely missing a lot of nuances by not having seen Frozen yet, but whatever. More to notice on rewatch later. I did find the Arendelle parts kind of weird, though, like they were shot/edited to look more like digital animation. Everything just a bit too smooth, movements just a hair shy of natural-looking. Odd choice, I thought. And I agree with someone who suggested, I think, that it would have been more in keeping with this show if the rock trolls had looked more, well, rocky and craggy than smooth and cartoony.

 

Re. Captain Swan. I haven't watched the finale since it aired, so I really don't remember how much Henry has or has not gleaned about this relationship. However, as some have pointed out, given that it's really just been a kiss, like, yesterday, I'm thinking that, even if he gets that there's some kind of attraction there, he certainly doesn't know that there's potentially a legit relationship beginning. I mention this, because it seemed to me like, yes, she was pulling back from it, and blaming it on all the stuff that's always happening to them, but when he calls her on that, she realizes he's right. That last scene, with the kiss, to me felt like she did kind of actually make a decision to pursue this, but there was just one thing she wanted to do first, and I was thinking it could be telling Henry that this relationship was going to happen. Yeah, there's still going to be other stuff, which may even delay that conversation, but for whatever reason, that was the impression I was left with, and I was OK with that. While I don't think that parents need to or should get their kids' permission on relationship stuff, when the kids are a certain age, I think it's good to keep them in the loop. We'll see how it all plays out. Maybe I just want it to be this because I'm much more down with that than the idea that Emma won't allow herself to be happy because of Regina guilt.

[kili]

I haven't watched the finale since it aired, so I really don't remember how much Henry has or has not gleaned about this relationship. However, as some have pointed out, given that it's really just been a kiss, like, yesterday, I'm thinking that, even if he gets that there's some kind of attraction there, he certainly doesn't know that there's potentially a legit relationship beginning

 

Henry is pretty perceptive about these things.

 

I think the telling moment for the "what do people know and when did they know it" is the scene in the finale when Emma storms out of the party after the New York debate. Everybody looks to Hook and nobody objects when he says that he will go talk to her.  Not one person in her direct family thinks that they might do a better job in calming her down or talking to her about staying.  Far from it. Endorsing the action, Henry actually suggests that Hook  take the "Once Upon a Time" book with him.

 

That's not to say Emma knows they know this (she's continually shocked when people have noticed something between her and Hook and was obviously trying to hide it from Henry in this episode). At some point, she's going to make the big announcement about them dating and everybody is going to be "We all knew". It's going to be like Ron and Hermione. "Finally"

[Guest Accused Dingo]

I love Regina and think she is the most fascinating characters on the show: i should probably stay off this board with all the Regina hate and find another one but AfterEllen annoys me trying to pair her with Emma/

I think this is one of the few shows where the villian is taking a slow path toward redemption and not a quick time jump. She hasn't been firgiven for all evil she has done. It has not been forgotten but the "good guys" are not forgetting that she is at least trying to be better.

The only other option is burning her at the stake and if they do that....what kind of people does that make them?

[stealinghome]

The only other option is burning her at the stake and if they do that....what kind of people does that make them?

Burning her at the stake is hardly the only option. There's squid ink and lifetime imprisonment (in the cell next to Sidney's, because presumably Belle's cell is vacant too...). There's squid ink and house arrest. There's getting Rumpel to duplicate that magical cuff we saw in S2 and S3. Etc.

 

There are loads of ways the Charmings could dispense some justice to Regina without executing her.

Edited September 30, 2014 by stealinghome

[Rumsy4]

I love Regina and think she is the most fascinating characters on the show: i should probably stay off this board with all the Regina hate and find another one but AfterEllen annoys me trying to pair her with Emma/

 

It can be hard to be the minority opinion in a board, but there are some strong Regina fans who post here.

 

 

The only other option is burning her at the stake and if they do that....what kind of people does that make them?

 

It's the amount of coddling Regina gets that bothers me. Forget justice--at the very least, I would have preferred a polite but distant relationship between the Swan/Charmings and Regina. 

[Curio]

I didn't remember Elsa having an ice trail in the movie "Frozen".

 

She had a trail of ice as she ran across the water when she was running away from Arendelle.

[stealinghome]

Also, quite frankly I would add that the Charmings executing Regina would make them responsible people who are concerned about the welfare of the people they are supposed to be ruling and protecting. How many lives have been lost because Snow has never had the balls to just execute Regina when she had the chance? How many lives (not to mention their entire civilization and world) could have been saved if Snow had just shot Regina with an arrow in 'The Evil Queen'...or executed her in 'The Cricket Game'...or even just let the wraith kill Regina in 'Broken'?

 

(Note that everything I say totally applies to Rumpel, too.)

 

She hasn't been firgiven for all evil she has done. It has not been forgotten but the "good guys" are not forgetting that she is at least trying to be better.

Regina has absolutely been forgiven for all the evil she has done, though. That's the thing. Everyone has forgiven her, and not once has she had to face any lasting justice for her evil actions. Snow has welcomed Regina back to the family with open arms--just look at how much she was like "Regina, are you okay???" in this episode alone. Henry has become the Cheerleader in Chief. Charming and Emma tiptoe around Regina like they're afraid to say boo. The townspeople apparently don't care about Regina at all. Even freaking Marian, who Regina killed, got over Regina's evil in the space of an episode! This is a serious question: who hasn't forgiven Regina? Because from where I'm sitting, all I can see is (inexplicable) forgiveness--and for crimes that really should not be forgivable.

Edited September 30, 2014 by stealinghome

[KingOfHearts]

 

Even freaking Marian, who Regina killed, got over Regina's evil in the space of an episode!

I wouldn't say that, particularly. Even when she said "Maybe you're not a monster", you could see in her face she was still keeping her distance. Right now I think she's the only person looking at Regina without rose-colored glasses on. She's still a far cry from the cheerleading squad, imo.

 

I couldn't tell if the episode as a whole was attempting to say, "Oh wait - she's not redeemed!" or "She's just doing this to get her deserved happy ending!" She had a good talk with Robin, then she imprisoned Sidney, then she wanted to kill Marian, then she saved Marian's life, then she had a heart-to-heart with Emma, and now she wants to change the book. It felt like mixed signals all the way through.

Edited September 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dirtybubble]

This is a serious question: who hasn't forgiven Regina? Because from where I'm sitting, all I can see is (inexplicable) forgiveness--and for crimes that really should not be forgivable.

Grumpy maybe.  I wouldn't say they have completely forgiven her, I would say they are encouraging her to continue down the path of good.  Everyone still seems to be on egg shells around her and it's really only Henry who is on the Regina love train for sure. 

 

 

[FabulousTater]

I wouldn't say they have completely forgiven her, I would say they are encouraging her to continue down the path of good.

Yes, that's what is typically referred to as "forgiveness". The Charmings' actually have inexplicably "forgiven" Regina for killing countless people, mercilessly hunting them down and their infant (and later as an adult) daughter, and not regretting a single bit of any of that. The Charmings have embraced the homicidal sociopath, Regina, and are encouraging her to continue to try and do better. That is forgiveness.

 

Everyone still seems to be on egg shells around her

That's called not forgetting. There's a difference between forgiving someone (see above) and forgetting. The Charmings are not forgetting that they are in fact a dealing with woman that's a homicidal sociopath with a huge body count to her name. I think the Charmings are being stupid and irresponsible by not locking Regina up (that's the very least they could do because execution should absolutely be on the table), but at the very least the writers (and I don't know if this makes it worse or better) don't have The Charmings et al. act like they have amnesia and they do justifiably "worry" about Regina going on another murder spree.

[ShadowFacts]

 

I couldn't tell if the episode as a whole was attempting to say, "Oh wait - she's not redeemed!" or "She's just doing this to get her deserved happy ending!" She had a good talk with Robin, then she imprisoned Sidney, then she wanted to kill Marian, then she saved Marian's life, then she had a heart-to-heart with Emma, and now she wants to change the book. It felt like mixed signals all the way through.

 

What I got from it, though there were mixed signals, is that Regina hasn't changed much at all, far from redeemed.  She blurted out her sorrow that she hadn't already killed Marian, and then started acting on correcting that.  She didn't save just Marian, it was a whole group laying there on the ground, and soon after she said that Marian wasn't the problem, the book's author was.  It was like she was moving on to a better plan, not showing mercy to Marian because she's becoming a better person.  That's through my lens, it may look different to others.  I feel like the writers are going to keep Regina pretty true to the homicidal maniac we've come to know.