S05.E10: Life, Itself

[paulvdb]

Quote

Trapped inside a mysterious alien portal that defies familiar rules of time, space, and gravity, Captain Burnham must fight Moll -- and the environment itself -- in order to locate the Progenitors' technology and secure it for the Federation. Meanwhile, Book puts himself in harm's way to help Burnham survive and Rayner leads the U.S.S. Discovery in an epic winner-takes-all battle against Breen forces.

Series finale. Premiere date: May 30, 2024

[AnimeMania]

[PurpleTentacle]

Do we really need to always needlessly one-up old lore, even thogh it doesn't make much sense?

Now the progenitors suddenly weren't the first beings around, but they were created by somebody else? And that somebody else only created one other race that was then alone in the galaxy? Seems a bit narrow minded.

I thought it was way more interesting to think that life was scarce at first, that there was one race that evolved and that they thought it would enrich the cosmos, if they made countless different species.

Also the Progenitor spoke of possibly countless cycles of creator and created. How could that possibly be? The progenitors seeded earth at least 4 billion years ago. But the galactic disc is only 8.8 billion years old. That would mean the progenitor's creators must have been the originals, there isn't any time for more, unless you get real weird with the speed of evolution. The progenitors should have known that and found signs in the structure. Also that is only if we are playing real fast and loose with the requirements for life. If not the Progenitors really should have been the first ones.

-

The ending was nice, but too long. They should have wrapped that up in about half the time.

[paigow]

Only Stamets and Book can operate the Spore Drive... Book stayed home.. Is Stamets still alive? 

[Stardancer Supreme]

While I am sad that Discovery had to end 2 seasons short of their story, I am satisfied that this won't be the end of Admiral Burnham and the Discovery crew.

I am thankful that Michael and Saru got their happy ending!  No unnecessary deaths and angst to end Discovery's story.

I'll go through the episode highlights:

Moll got on my nerves so much! I didn't think that Michael should have been bested by her twice. Yes, I know Moll had to eff up in order to move the story along, but Michael should have been able to incapacitate her more easily.  All of this rah rah and she still wasn't able to get L'ak back (which I liked). But now after all her issues, she will eventually get rescued by Kovich for Section 31 shenaniganery.

What I did like is that even though Michael was the Chosen One to safeguard the Progenitors tech, she ultimately decided not to take on the responsibility of it's steward. Thinking she would have a God complex and rule over all Star Trek in the future was silly and I hope not to see thinkpieces about it...

Watching Stamets deflate in her ready room after finding out that Starfleet wasn't going to keep the Progenitors tech will never not be funny. It was sweet that Adira had to bring their father up from his crash.

This was an excellent full circle to Michael's story, even though I would like to see her journey with Book, their son (! So is he Captain Leto Booker or Captain Leto Burnham?), and doing all of that while becoming Admiral. Hopefully we will get glimpses of that journey in the Star Trek Academy show and the Section 31 movie (should still be a 10 episode series!!! There's plenty of story to tell, considering the amount of Discovery crew now working with Kovitch...).

Kovich is Agent Daniels from Enterprise. Loved that gem drop. In his room, we saw several items from past Star Trek shows; Geordi's visor, Sisko's baseball, etc. What will be his memento from Discovery?

So I guess the answer to my persistent question is that yes, Admiral Vance was the only Starfleet admiral in the 32nd century! 

I did drop a few thug tears for the Discovery Crew's final hugs with their Captain (Finally there is Bryce, Detmer and Owosekun!).

So Zora's final Red Directive mission was to go to some far point in space and just... wait?  Is this the connection to "Calypso"? Hopefully we won't wait for too long for that particular thread to be stitched into something.

I am a lifelong Trekkie, and I can't wait to see whats next for Star Trek. Time to purchase all of the DVDs, Blu-Rays, and books!  

 

Let's Fly!

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

So Zora's final Red Directive mission was to go to some far point in space and just... wait?  Is this the connection to "Calypso"? Hopefully we won't wait for too long for that particular thread to be stitched into something.

Yes, it is the connection to Calypso.  Burnham mentioned that going out there had something to do with Craft, the name of the person Zora meets in that ShortTrek, but said she was not aware if the name relates to a person, ship or whatever. 

The episode was fine.  The part I most enjoyed was old Burnham thinking back on the ship's crew at the end.  And how is it that Tilly was somehow the longest tenured instructor at Starfleet Academy?  Aren't there species in the Federation that long outlive humans?  Heck, don't Vulcans live a couple hundred years?   

[paigow]

Everybody else must have died protecting those planets on that Breen trade route...

[thuganomics85]

Heh, I did love that Saru turned around the negotiations when things were going south by simply saying "Fine, I'm leaving now, you coward!" and the other Breen leader totally being all "The fuck did you just say?!  Come back, here!"  Action Saru, indeed!

So, in the end, the Progenitor device can basically create new lives, but doesn't actually bring people back, so Moll's quest was all for not since even if L'ok's body did come back, the mind/person wouldn't be the same.  Kind of makes all of her recent actions pointless, but whatever.  At least she's no longer causing trouble now, but it seems like she's not in prison, but working for Kovich now.  Hmm...

Speaking of which, Kovich is actually Daniels the Temporal Agent from Enterprise this entire time!  That explains quite a bit.  Definitely noticed some of the items he had in his office: including Geordi's visor.

Damn, Rayner just Voyagered the other Breen dreadnaught by somehow using Discovery and the spore drive to zap them decades away.  The man doesn't fuck around!  Still bummed he only just appeared for this final season, because there was a lot of potential with this character.  Credit to Callum Keith Renne to leaving such a mark this late in the game.

A happy ending for basically everyone.  No major deaths and everyone seemed to thrive in the Federation going forward.  Saru and T'Rina do get married thankfully, and even Michael and Booker rekindle the flame and go on to live a peaceful life with a red forest and; sincerely; some pretty solid old age make-up (actually thought they made Sonequa Martin-Green look even more like Sonja Sohn, which was cool: intentional or not.)

Did like finally seeing the likes of Detmer, Bryce, and Owosekun again.

And so ends the journey of Discovery.  Won't say it was a perfect one, as I do think it was the poster child of a show that had a lot of great ideas but seem to lack in execution a good portion of the times, and it always carried with it a sense that it could have been something more (I'll always be curious to know what was Bryan Fuller's initial vision was before he left way back before the show even got out of production.)  But I did grow to like the characters (for the most part) and the cast was mainly able to lift up whatever material was given to them.  And, in the end, it was just fun getting Trek back on TV again and I enjoyed the ride.

And, hey, if nothing else, Discovery helped usher in Strange New Worlds, which has a solid shot at being one of my favorite Treks ever, so Discovery will always be good in my book for that alone!

[marinw]

So Michael goes from denying she’s a god a few episodes ago to turning down the opportunity to become a god. The show is keeping true to Star Trek’s secular roots, godlike powers are just advanced tech. 

I can’t decide if tossing the portal into a black hole was a wise decision or an enormous cop-out. It may be found by the 32nd Century equivalent and the Borg who can hack their way in.

So Disco is just abandoned in deep space? And how does Michael get home afterwards? Long range shuttle or transporter?

Edited May 31 by marinw

[phalange]

I’ve always liked the idea of the Progenitors, so it was nice that Michael got to meet one of them, in a sense. Interesting that Dr. Derex actually found the tech back in the 24th century but thought people weren’t ready for that level of technology yet, which was probably true. Michael made the right decision in sending it into the black hole since as she said, there’s already infinite diversity in infinite combinations. I do sympathize with Stamets being disappointed in not being able to study it, though. 

I’m so glad Saru and T’Rina were able to get married!

So in the future, Michael and Book have a son who also joins Starfleet and Michael becomes an admiral. The scene of Michael on the Discovery remembering her younger self with all her friends and crew got me teary. 

Edited May 31 by phalange

[Glade]

This was a really moving conclusion to the season, seeing them chuck the technology into the black hole; not use it to bring back one lost planet or one dead person (thus provoking possible jealousy and conflict, from the many others who lost loved ones or home planets,) but declaring that no one should have that power.   The wedding was beautiful, as was Burnham and Book's future.  It is a shame they weren't allowed to make an additional hour long episode to fully explore everyone's fates, and have the budget to put everyone in aging makeup.  But what they were allowed to do was great.  I loved this show, and the emotional journeys it took us on.   I'll look forward to Star Trek; Academy. 

Interestingly, the Breen who were taken in by Moll will now have to live out their own version of Star Trek Voyager, except with no ethical principles to struggle against (I'm sure if they made a Tuvix, they would kill him on sight!)   

Edited May 31 by Glade

[millennium]

Applause!  Applause!

Discovery outdid itself in this extra-long, very special episode!

"Life, Itself" was so terrifically bad that it blew away every low expectation that I had.   And then, as if the sheer ineptitude of the storytelling and the cliched dialogue weren't enough, the show managed to make Michael Burnham the most powerful and noble person in the entire fucking universe, if not all of human history.  My cup runneth over!   Thank you, thank you, Nu Trek, for not only five unbearable seasons of the worst sci-fi I have ever seen (and this includes Andromeda and Earth Final Conflict), but also the worst and least-interesting lead character in the Star Trek universe.  

Edited to add one redeeming aspect of this episode: Picard's flute wasn't among Kovich's collectibles.   That would have made me see red.

Edited June 2 by millennium

[Quark]

I thought the first 40 minutes (maybe even a bit more) was much better than the second half. All the scenes in the future didn't really add anything for me.

This was a good series, but I think Season Two was probably my favourite. Would have been nice to see Georgiou in this finale somehow though.

[Artsda]

It was a good ending, I do think it was a bid long. They could have wrapped it up at the wedding and let that be it.  

[lambertman]

Okay, so I guess it's on me to have not watched Calypso.

But... exactly how do they know that they need to abandon Discovery for that future story to take place?

And also, why is it so important that the rather insignificant story that is Calypso happens?

[paigow]

Why is Kovich not helping Pike & Kirk with their timeline issues involving Baby Hitler Khan???

[Affogato]

51 minutes ago, lambertman said:

Okay, so I guess it's on me to have not watched Calypso.

But... exactly how do they know that they need to abandon Discovery for that future story to take place?

And also, why is it so important that the rather insignificant story that is Calypso happens?

We don’t know. But apparently Daniels/Kovich knows. It is a ‘red directive’. 

[Chit Chat]

5 hours ago, millennium said:

Thank you, thank you, Nu Trek, for not only five unbearable seasons of the worst sci-fi I have ever seen, but also the worst and least-interesting lead character in the Star Trek universe.  

[dwmarch]

I liked the finale and overall I'd say season 5 is my favorite season of Disco.

Visual spectacles were of particular note here. Say what you will about this show but it is gorgeous.

I did get a LOL out of how casually Moll's hopes were crushed. The Progenitor said you can get bodies reanimated but with no memories or personality. When Moll wakes up, Burnham is just like "there's nothing here, let's go!" Maybe the Breen have something like the Vulcans with their katra-transfer abilities? But no, sorry Moll. It was a limited time offer and you were sleeping so looks like you don't get yours.

Nice to see that Detmer and Owo found their way back to Disco after apparently going on an epic voyage around the season. This would be good fodder for a novel and there are similar novels to explain where so-and-so was during such-and-such a time. One Disco novel I have read tells the story of Pike's Enterprise being stuck in another conflict during the Klingon war.

I will have to rewatch closely but I think Moll may have been a Section 31 agent under the command of Kovich. When they are talking about her at the end, they mention that Kovich wants to talk to her. Is he wishing to debrief his agent on how she successfully overthrew the Breen government, something he knows Michael would never sign on to? I think there were a few other hints through the season as well, particularly those really incompetent guards assigned to her after she was captured.

I liked that the Progenitors said "oh this? This isn't ours, we found this shit!" I thought it was a little pretentious to have the Disco crew solving the mystery of life, the universe and everything and I think it is great to find out that in the end they have only scratched the surface.

The nods to previous Treks were great. The Picard series did some things that I, as an old school TNG fan, just said no to. Picard also loved killing characters off for shock value and I'm glad Disco didn't do any of that this season.

One other thing I noticed that I am not sure is a bug or a feature: look at how many times various characters went against protocol this episode! I guess the solution was to not follow the rules.

Loved the scene where they figured out they could use the spore drive to yeet an enemy across the galaxy. Those Breen must be so confused. I hope this comes up again in the Starfleet Academy series as an example of unintended consequences though.

[NeenerNeener]

14 hours ago, phalange said:

I’m so glad Saru and T’Rina were able to get married!

I thought for sure they would kill off Saru so we would have something to be sad about, as well as happy about Michael saving the Progenitor's tech from the Breen. I'm glad I'm wrong.

[marinw]

Saru the Baddass Diplomat was the best part IMO. Female Breen was fun, does anyone know who did the voice?

[Chit Chat]

1 hour ago, marinw said:

Saru the Baddass Diplomat was the best part IMO.

I liked that too.  Great poker face!!

6 hours ago, Artsda said:

They could have wrapped it up at the wedding and let that be it.  

Yes, but apparently they needed additional time to talk about everybody's damn feelings!  Gah!!  I'm so glad that's over.  

The best ending was TNG when Picard finally sat down to play poker with the other officers.  To the point without droning on and on about how they feel.  

[Affogato]

It isn’t just that God is technology, like turtles, all the way down. It is that the things we can reach for, touch, study, aspire to and grow into, in the real world, are more enticing and interesting than any face of god we can imagine. God: way overrated.

Moll, or her stunt double, has some amazing kicks. 31 is a good place for her.

I cried all through the second half of the show. I was happy they had the time (apparently barely) and money to let us know what happened to the characters.

I have to admit that I rarely ship anyone, but I would have been angry if Book and Michael didn’t end up together. I loved the multicolored antelope creature, and the sighting of the artifact Book got from the library. I tend to think that even if unnatural longevity isn’t encouraged people would live longer and look better. Dermal regeneration would heal sun damage, for example, and I’m sure that (picard aside) knee cartilage could be regenerated. But the makeup was good and it made its point. 

I wonder if Raynar stayed with the Discovery? He definitely needed, and found, a new family. He learned to fit in. During the fight I was impressed with all of the female characters on the bridge. I spent so many years watching stories told in a man’s world. this has been refreshing. 

I loved Saru letting his inner predator out to intimidate. He is going to be a scary damn diplomat.

I remember TOS, Kirk meets an old girlfriend. They broke up because he was devoted to starfleet. It was a military, Navy model. Later shows had some families on board, but the people in charge, like Picard and Riker and Troi didn’t have full lives. I like that Discovery let its people have full lives and careers, making adjustments as necessary, and let people work through trauma, too. It took a while to get out of the military model, but I’m sure everyone is happier for it.

[Chit Chat]

43 minutes ago, Affogato said:

It took a while to get out of the military model, but I’m sure everyone is happier for it.

I prefer a more disciplined, military approach.  There were too many couple relationships on this show, and those long-ass discussions about their feelings weighed the show down. 

I was hoping that this show would be about discovering new worlds sans the conflicts and threats of war.  Dropping in on alien species and studying their different stages of development would be a nice change.  I guess that would get boring for some, but it could've been interesting. 

Goodbye, show!  My favorite character? Grudge.  I'd rather watch cats in space than some of the episodes I sat through with this show! 

[tennisgurl]

As far as Trek finales go, I would say that this one is somewhere in the middle. Its not as great as TNG but not anywhere as bad as Enterprise, especially considering they probably had to cram a lot into one season/finale to wrap things up. The ending when old Michael was thinking back to her crew got me a little teary, it really did feel like the show had ended. 

In the end a lot of the plot with Moll and the Breen felt a little...pointless? It could be because I have never liked Moll that much and have been disappointed by the Breen, but it all felt sort of tacked on. L'ak is still dead, the Breen are just the same as ever, it feels like they wasted an opportunity. I was hoping that L'ak might come back and help the Breen stop being so...Breen about everything, have them and the Federation find a path where they can make some moves towards diplomacy, but it all just petered out. 

Action Diplomat Saru is here to kick ass and be polite about it! I love that he pulled a "I guess I should report back that your a big scardy chicken." "NOBODY CALLS ME CHICKEN!" on the Breen. I am very glad that he and T'Rina made it to the altar. 

I am glad that we got to meet a Progenitor, although it seems really random that it turns out that they just found the technology and that it was some other super advanced species that created it and disappeared, but I can why they didn't want to give Michael the answers to life, the universe, and everything. I also think that Michael throwing it down the black hole was a good call and its consistent with the season.

I wish we could have had a little longer to find out what happens to everyone in the future, but I like what we got. Michael became an admiral, married Book and had a son who's now in Starfleet, and they live on a beautiful forest world filled with cute alien wildlife. We also find out that Dr. Kovich is actually Agent Daniels the time agent, which explains a lot, and that he's not just a fan of the past, he's a huge Trekkie, his office is filled with memorabilia. I saw Sisko's baseball, Geordi's visor, a bottle of wine that might be from the Picard family vinyard, that was fun. While Discover certainly had its ups and downs and really needed a few seasons to figure itself out, I came to really enjoy the show and I will miss it. I came to really enjoy the characters (even if some were tragically underused), the acting was great all around, and when they went to the far future I think the show finally found its own feet. Its sad to see it go but I am glad it had the chance to grow. 

Edited June 1 by tennisgurl

[Stardancer Supreme]

5 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I will have to rewatch closely but I think Moll may have been a Section 31 agent under the command of Kovich. When they are talking about her at the end, they mention that Kovich wants to talk to her. Is he wishing to debrief his agent on how she successfully overthrew the Breen government, something he knows Michael would never sign on to? I think there were a few other hints through the season as well, particularly those really incompetent guards assigned to her after she was captured.

That would actually change my estimation of Moll if this were actually the case. The way she just let go of L'ak after getting to the Progenitors tech and failing to secure it was real quick.

I guess what most people didn't really understand about Star Trek is that each series is the story of the captain in charge.  All this hollering about the supporting cast being featured more prominently was totally besides the point of the series; this was Michael's story from mutineer to Admiral. If folk have actually watched Star Trek from its inception, they wouldn't be so quick to scream "woke!" and other nonsense into the void. IDIC...

 

[Ceindreadh]

8 hours ago, Artsda said:

It was a good ending, I do think it was a bid long. They could have wrapped it up at the wedding and let that be it.  

I'm guessing that if this hadn't been the series finale, then that's round about where the season finale would have ended.

I'm glad they showed us a bit of the future.

[Affogato]

31 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

I'm guessing that if this hadn't been the series finale, then that's round about where the season finale would have ended.

I'm glad they showed us a bit of the future.

I put a link to a variety article in media that talks about that and yes, that is the season ending. 

[NeenerNeener]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

I loved the multicolored antelope creature,

I couldn't help wondering if it had ticks that carried Lyme disease.

[Affogato]

38 minutes ago, NeenerNeener said:

I couldn't help wondering if it had ticks that carried Lyme disease.

Seven of lime disease

[paigow]

Is Burnham living on Nepenthe? 

[jcin617]

What does the Federation need the Progenitors tech for anyway - did they forget they had the Genesis technology?  How is that different?  Surely they could have improved upon that in 800+ years.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, jcin617 said:

What does the Federation need the Progenitors tech for anyway - did they forget they had the Genesis technology?  How is that different?  Surely they could have improved upon that in 800+ years.

My impression was that the Genesis Tech starts a chain reaction. The progenitor tech gives you fine control. 

[MaryMitch]

I thought Michael was going to do a "Sisko" and stay with the Progenitors.

I liked the look into the future - the makeup people did a good job aging her.

Edited June 1 by MaryMitch

[Affogato]

15 hours ago, paigow said:

Is Burnham living on Nepenthe? 

It looks like sanctuary 4 and Molly had her babies. Could have been Nepenthe in a previous life. 

[paigow]

8 hours ago, Affogato said:

My impression was that the Genesis Tech starts a chain reaction. The progenitor tech gives you fine control. 

 

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

 

Thanks.

McCoy aside, Genesis is an efficient terraforming tool.

I’m glad we got auch a close look at Jim’s eyeball. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

17 hours ago, jcin617 said:

What does the Federation need the Progenitors tech for anyway - did they forget they had the Genesis technology?  How is that different?  Surely they could have improved upon that in 800+ years.

Genesis was a terraforming device that could accelerate the creation of existing lifeforms and in Spock's case help bring one back from being mostly dead. But a) it was unstable and b) it was built on an unethical cheat by using protomatter.

Yes, it's possible that someone might improve on Genesis technology, and they certainly may have. On the other hand, they might have deliberately banned such research as too dangerous, in a way similar to genetic engineering being banned because of the Eugenics Wars. Or they may have banned such research due to treaty, as they did when they agreed to not pursue cloaking technology. (which sticks in my craw as the single dumbest possible move.) 

But Genesis clearly has a lesser scope than the Progenitor tech.  

We still do not know the full scope of what the Progenitors' tech is/might be capable of. But at its base, it was used to seed life throughout the universe billions of years ago. That implies the ability to travel throughout the universe, advanced genetic engineering that could hold the secret to prolonging life and curing diseases, stores of knowledge as to all sorts of fields, historical and cultural records and much much more. Moreover, there is the possibility that in the billions of years that happened while various forms of life were evolving from single-celled organisms, the Progenitors continued their scientific progress and have tech vastly improved on that which existed at the time they created life (which again, far surpasses anything that existed in the 32nd century).

[Tachi Rocinante]

The end was basically Star Trek: Titanic

[marinw]

On 5/31/2024 at 5:23 PM, Affogato said:

Moll, or her stunt double, has some amazing kicks. 31 is a good place for her.

I noticed the same thing. Stunt workers don’t get enough recognition, although that is starting to change.

[Stardancer Supreme]

I would love to know what the notes Kovich took on that legal pad were...

[paigow]

16 hours ago, marinw said:

I noticed the same thing. Stunt workers don’t get enough recognition, although that is starting to change.

Next Capt. Kirk reboot...

[Affogato]

On 5/31/2024 at 5:50 PM, Stardancer Supreme said:

That would actually change my estimation of Moll if this were actually the case. The way she just let go of L'ak after getting to the Progenitors tech and failing to secure it was real quick.

I guess what most people didn't really understand about Star Trek is that each series is the story of the captain in charge.  All this hollering about the supporting cast being featured more prominently was totally besides the point of the series; this was Michael's story from mutineer to Admiral. If folk have actually watched Star Trek from its inception, they wouldn't be so quick to scream "woke!" and other nonsense into the void. IDIC...

 

In new Trek shows, Picard was supposed to be a character study of Picard after Enterprise. To end on a high note they had to make what was kind of a hot sentimental mess that strongly echoed (and didn’t go much farther than) the ending of TNG.  Group hug at the end of the high school reunion! So it is not just Michael or Discovery. 

[Affogato]

On 6/2/2024 at 11:03 PM, Stardancer Supreme said:

I would love to know what the notes Kovich took on that legal pad were...

Then he would have to kill you!

[baldryanr]

22 hours ago, Affogato said:

I guess what most people didn't really understand about Star Trek is that each series is the story of the captain in charge.

The captain might be the star, but there are degrees of how much focus they get.  There is clearly a hierarchy for character importance with some shows (DS9) doing a better job than others (TOS, Voyager) of spreading the wealth, but none of the older Treks were quite so focused on just one character.  William Shatner would have loved it if Kirk had been as important to TOS as Burnham was in Disco, especially in the later seasons. 

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, baldryanr said:

The captain might be the star, but there are degrees of how much focus they get.  There is clearly a hierarchy for character importance with some shows (DS9) doing a better job than others (TOS, Voyager) of spreading the wealth, but none of the older Treks were quite so focused on just one character.  William Shatner would have loved it if Kirk had been as important to TOS as Burnham was in Disco, especially in the later seasons. 

Um. The quote was written by stardancer supreme, I had replied to their post. 
 

in response to your message:

there are many episodes of Discovery where in some cases many the crew operate together on a scientific exploration or problem solving. Including Zora. Darn if it isn’t often super inclusive. The problems solved, as we are shown, are group efforts. Low heirarchy as well, there are many ensigns that speak up. It was very prevalent in season 4, in season 5 there was usually a small group as well as what was happening on the ship. Inclusive.  you see, while Michael is the overall focus, there are many focal points to the show. 
 

the other shows had a lot more episodes and did not do as well at integrating the larger crew woth each other. The only show that has done as well as Discovery was DS9 and that was very long. 
 

maybe you are thinking of the scoobie factor. Most of the TNG shows gets a similar group together to solve that darn mystery of the week. Every season more or less each member of the group gets some sort of focus ep. Like SNW is doing! 

maybe something else. But I really think your complaint about the show is not true to the show. 
 

let me add that in real life I do not believe scoobie happens often past school groups. Also that the term ‘red shirt’ was created fir a reason. There are no red shirts in Discovery  

 

Edited June 5 by Affogato

[dwmarch]

13 hours ago, Affogato said:

There are no red shirts in Discovery

If you mean on the ship, this is technically true because the pilot of SPT 21 never made it: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/SPT_21_personnel

I remember this one specifically because it was a mean way to kill a character off and it set a harsh tone for the show that I didn't like. They got over it in later seasons but Disco was pretty casual with the cruelty when it first started.

[Affogato]

On 6/5/2024 at 11:44 PM, dwmarch said:

If you mean on the ship, this is technically true because the pilot of SPT 21 never made it: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/SPT_21_personnel

I remember this one specifically because it was a mean way to kill a character off and it set a harsh tone for the show that I didn't like. They got over it in later seasons but Disco was pretty casual with the cruelty when it first started.

I realized my original answer didn’t track. Yes, people were hurt on Disco. They never appeared to be created to be killed. People reacted to their deaths. 

Edited June 7 by Affogato

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 6/5/2024 at 5:55 AM, baldryanr said:

The captain might be the star, but there are degrees of how much focus they get.  There is clearly a hierarchy for character importance with some shows (DS9) doing a better job than others (TOS, Voyager) of spreading the wealth, but none of the older Treks were quite so focused on just one character.  William Shatner would have loved it if Kirk had been as important to TOS as Burnham was in Disco, especially in the later seasons. 

TOS episodes all had one central plot, and the Big Three of Kirk/Spock/McCoy were always at the center of them, and usually Kirk was at the center of the big three. I can't think of an episode of TOS proper where Kirk's actions were not an important component  And simultaneously, there wasn't much time/space devoted to fleshing out Scotty, Chekov, Sulu, Uhura and the other crewmates.

From TNG on, most episodes had A plots and B plots. As important as Picard, Sisko Janeway etc were as the captains of their respective series, some episodes had them take more of a backseat and focused on other members of the crew. So you had episodes that were Geordi centric, Dax-centric, Neelix-centric etc. And even when the focus was on the captain, there was usually a subplot that developed the other characters. Friggin' Reginald Barclay, not even a series regular, had more time devoted to him in TNG than anyone in TOS outside the Big Three and Scotty.

Discovery was much closer to the TOS model of doing things. We didn't really get much time with a lot of the crew members. It was mostly Michael, Saru, and Georgiou with a splash of Tilly and Stamets. 

[Affogato]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

TOS episodes all had one central plot, and the Big Three of Kirk/Spock/McCoy were always at the center of them, and usually Kirk was at the center of the big three. I can't think of an episode of TOS proper where Kirk's actions were not an important component  And simultaneously, there wasn't much time/space devoted to fleshing out Scotty, Chekov, Sulu, Uhura and the other crewmates.

From TNG on, most episodes had A plots and B plots. As important as Picard, Sisko Janeway etc were as the captains of their respective series, some episodes had them take more of a backseat and focused on other members of the crew. So you had episodes that were Geordi centric, Dax-centric, Neelix-centric etc. And even when the focus was on the captain, there was usually a subplot that developed the other characters. Friggin' Reginald Barclay, not even a series regular, had more time devoted to him in TNG than anyone in TOS outside the Big Three and Scotty.

Discovery was much closer to the TOS model of doing things. We didn't really get much time with a lot of the crew members. It was mostly Michael, Saru, and Georgiou with a splash of Tilly and Stamets. 

And again to remind people that there are fewer episodes of Discovery.  More the first season. And you did develop more characters in the first couple of seasons. More episodes, more opportunity for B plots. 

Edited June 7 by Affogato