S02.E10: Do You See The Vision?

[Simba122504]

9 minutes ago, possibilities said:

 

I find it interesting that a lot of people were sympathetic to Amanda, but not to Crystal. 

People are bias. Amanda is a fan favorite, so fans sympathize with her and they know a lot of her backstory. Crystal was connected to Angie who fans also do not like. Crystal didn't stand a chance with the fan base. It's like Nico. Nico is connected to Will. The fans love Will and what he did for Nico.  So if Nico does something terrible that doesn't involve Will. The fans would be more sympathetic. Crystal and Angie annoyed me, but I never forgot Crystal was a victim. Angie fed the monster. The abuser created the nightmare, but Angie fed it. 

[Chaser]

I have a lot of sympathy for Angie. She’s had lot of trauma and that impacted how she handled the situation. She thought she was protecting a girl the way she was never protected. And she didn’t just walk away, she tried so hard to make sure Crystal got help after. Unfortunately it didn’t work, it made it worse. Angie got herself to a good place but now it’s all gone. It’s all just sad. I like Angie. 

I’m sorry that Will has been betrayed by the two most important people to him. I’m glad he held Angie accountable though, I was really disappointed when he didn’t hold Amanda to the same standard. I just wish they didn’t write that storyline for Amanda. Especially with Will taking down cops and Faith’s mom at the start. I hope we get Amanda and Angie bonding next season. 

Faith needed more. Hoping for more next season. After a full season of this guy, I miss hot doc. 

Michael’s wife is an awful person. I was with her on divorce but no excuse for leaving her children like that. 

[AnimeMania]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

I think Angie in the woods might have told them that she figured out who the serial killer (Crystal) and went to find her, but unless she breaks the confidentiality of the AA group (which she clearly didn't want to do, as they demonstrated eleswhere in the episode), I don't know how she explains that she figured that out.

It would be easy for Angie to make up a story about seeing the toys in Crystal's bedroom on one of her wellness checks to Crystal when she was worried about Lenny reoffending. Seeing the toys appear in the crime scene photos caused her to go to Crystal's new residence to investigate.

[Orbert]

I didn't like the idea that Crystal the Murder Teen was in fact... well, you know.  But she was, and I was even impressed with how hard they tried to make it plausible after I'd already decided how implausible it was that a 100-pound teenaged girl who can barely function was actually a serial killer.  So kudos to the writers for getting me to accept it, if not quite buy it.  What I hadn't counted on was what that meant for Angie and the fact that she'd lied to cover up Lenny's murder, and that Will would have to do the right thing.  He had to.  And that sucks.  "What did you do?!"  Yeah.

Very, very well-written, and very, very hard to watch.  Wow.

Oh yeah, Gina (Ormewood) can just fuck off.

[possibilities]

The Oremwood story is Kramer vs Kramer (anybody besides me old enough to have seen that move in the theater when it was first released?)... though Oremwood was a more involved father than Dustin Hoffman's character, before mom left. 

 

[Simba122504]

6 hours ago, Orbert said:

I didn't like the idea that Crystal the Murder Teen was in fact... well, you know.  But she was, and I was even impressed with how hard they tried to make it plausible after I'd already decided how implausible it was that a 100-pound teenaged girl who can barely function was actually a serial killer.  So kudos to the writers for getting me to accept it, if not quite buy it.  What I hadn't counted on was what that meant for Angie and the fact that she'd lied to cover up Lenny's murder, and that Will would have to do the right thing.  He had to.  And that sucks.  "What did you do?!"  Yeah.

Very, very well-written, and very, very hard to watch.  Wow.

Oh yeah, Gina (Ormewood) can just fuck off.

I liked how they explained it.  I don't have any numbers to back it up, but a lot of female killers are known to have drugged their victims, kill them in their sleep or had a male partner in crime. Ninjas are not as popular as people think. 😆

[chediavolo]

On 5/22/2024 at 10:30 AM, tessabq said:

The Unbearable Sadness of Watching this episode. Angie's actions were going to catch up with her eventually. These men would not have died had she not covered up the first killing. 

 

Of course, Will saw his future with her through rose-colored glasses; don't we all do that with the people we love? 

So many questions for next season. Will we see where Will has gone? Realistically, Angie will never be able to work in law enforcement again. And then there's Amanda's situation. 

January feels very far away.

They deserved it! Sexual predators, child rapists. . Yes, she & Angie were wrong & needed mental health care but those men were scum. 

[peeayebee]

13 hours ago, Simba122504 said:

People are bias. Amanda is a fan favorite, so fans sympathize with her and they know a lot of her backstory. Crystal was connected to Angie who fans also do not like. Crystal didn't stand a chance with the fan base. It's like Nico. Nico is connected to Will. The fans love Will and what he did for Nico.  So if Nico does something terrible that doesn't involve Will. The fans would be more sympathetic. Crystal and Angie annoyed me, but I never forgot Crystal was a victim. Angie fed the monster. The abuser created the nightmare, but Angie fed it. 

All this is true. For me, I disliked Crystal because her story seemed extraneous, as did storylines that had Angie and Ormewood separate from Will. I was often left feeling that the writers were struggling to come up with something for these other characters to do. I don't find A & O interesting enuf for them to have their own storylines. 

Of course when it was suggested here that Crystal would be the killer, it explained the purpose of her previous eps, and then it came back to Will.

Since GBI and the police department are separate entities, they can't always be working the same case, so I guess I need to accept that there will be at least two plot lines per ep. I wish I liked A & O and those actors more.

[mrsbagnet]

15 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Since GBI and the police department are separate entities

Speaking of, why are GBI and the APD in the same building? I get that it's a matter of convenience for the show, but it's always struck me as strange, unless it's really a thing?

[tessabq]

8 hours ago, chediavolo said:

They deserved it! Sexual predators, child rapists. . Yes, she & Angie were wrong & needed mental health care but those men were scum. 

I never meant to imply they did not deserve punishment, but while Angie's cover-up was filled with good intentions it did more harm for Crystal than good. My heart breaks for both of them.

[DEL901]

Glad they had Will bring Betty with him.  It will reassure his friends he isn’t planning anything drastic…if he was, he would have left Betty with Nico.  

[marceline]

18 hours ago, tessabq said:

I never meant to imply they did not deserve punishment, but while Angie's cover-up was filled with good intentions it did more harm for Crystal than good. My heart breaks for both of them.

Yeah, that's what's so sad about this. Angie's trauma overwhelmed her perspicacity and she ended up making everything worse. She turned Crystal into a serial killer. Crystal even said "I tried pretending like it never happened just like you told me!" Crystal needed better than that.

Gotta give Angie credit for playing Blondie's Rapture while working on the table.

[Quickbeam]

On 5/22/2024 at 8:54 AM, EtheltoTillie said:

Oh boy!  Angie was arrested. Hope you’re okay. 

Thank you! Wasn’t even our area but our local stations *love* to break into programming. It was Iowa (who did get hit)….I am in WI.

[gibasi]

I thought Angie should have confessed. She knew Will couldn't let it go. She just caused him more pain. 

[HyeChaps]

On 5/23/2024 at 11:29 PM, possibilities said:

The Oremwood story is Kramer vs Kramer (anybody besides me old enough to have seen that move in the theater when it was first released?)... though Oremwood was a more involved father than Dustin Hoffman's character, before mom left. 

 

Yes!!!  Just what I was thinking!  (I did see it when it first came out.)

But I wonder if Angie will implicate him.

 

[tessabq]

22 minutes ago, HyeChaps said:

Yes!!!  Just what I was thinking!  (I did see it when it first came out.)

But I wonder if Angie will implicate him.

 

I think Angie would go out of her way not to implicate him. Today, I rewatched the episode in which Lenny first reappeared in Angie's life. Little did we suspect ...

Kramer vs. Kramer was groundbreaking at the time. I also remember Dustin Hoffman's character using a French Press to make coffee. I don't know why I remember that detail. LOL. 

 

[catrice2]

I always knew the Lenny story would have long term consequences and when Crystal reappeared it was clear. 

I am on the fence about whether Amanda should have consequences...and I know that is wrong. She did the wrong thing for the right reason, but it was still wrong. 

Crystal, on the other hand was killing people,and in fact had already killed at least one known person. 

I could care less about Ormewood and his family drama. 

I am "not connecting" to Faith's boyfriend.  I was looking forward to seeing her play the field for a bit after denying herself romance due to having a child as a teen. I also find the actor to be very wooden. 

[cinsays]

On 5/25/2024 at 10:20 AM, marceline said:

Yeah, that's what's so sad about this. Angie's trauma overwhelmed her perspicacity and she ended up making everything worse. She turned Crystal into a serial killer. Crystal even said "I tried pretending like it never happened just like you told me!" Crystal needed better than that.

Gotta give Angie credit for playing Blondie's Rapture while working on the table.

i disagree.  Crystal needed help but I don't think we can blame Angie, herself a victim of abuse and by the same guy, for suggesting what she thought was a way to deal with it.

[Chaser]

Given the circumstances, a good lawyer would have gotten Crystal off. I don’t think Angie turned Crystal into anything. It’s reasonable to think Crystal would have made the same choices regardless of Angie taking the fall. It’s not like Angie told her not to deal with her trauma, she encouraged her to get help.

[peeayebee]

51 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Given the circumstances, a good lawyer would have gotten Crystal off. 

That's what's so aggravating to me. There was no need to cover up Crystal's killing of Lenny. This kind of thing happens when the people are all stressed out and panicking. Of course Crystal was not calm and collected, and I suppose you could say Angie was not thinking straight either, but even back then, it seemed a plot-driven response to the killing.

[Lakebum]

On 5/22/2024 at 7:12 PM, Bulldog said:

With all that happened this episode, my favorite moment was the absolute glee Caroline had when getting to sit on Ormewood. 

With Crystal dead, I didn’t understand why Angie needed to confess to covering up the killing of Lenny. Crystal being a vigilante serial killer could have very easily been blamed on her history of abuse even if Angie had actually killed Lenny. 

I’m pretty sure that if Caroline sat on me, I would be the one who is gleeful.

[Badsamaritan]

Angie needed to confess because her direct cover up of the prior crime essentially made her an accessory to murder teen's subsequent killing spree. Instead of reporting the crime and letting a good lawyer get her off and also get the help she would need, she made a stupid and criminal choice that cost 5 people their lives. If she supposedly knows Will so well, she had to know that if he ever got hold of that file he would be able to rip it apart quickly. If she knows him so well, she would've known he couldn't let that stand. If she really loved him the way he loves her, Will would've walked in on her signing her confession to the whole fucked up ordeal, taking responsibility, and the burden, away from him and back on herself, where it should be.

Amanda's situation isn't comparable for me. Number one, it happened 30 years ago and if I'm not mistaken, it would've been a she said/he said because that asshole was already tried and convicted and obviously didn't win any of his appeals. Amanda did what she did to put a violent criminal behind bars. Angie did what she did and released a violent criminal into the world who also probably needed to be behind bars. 

Betty isn't the only one who loves Wilbur unconditionally. Amanda is gonna be beside herself and taking it out on everybody else, poor things.

As always, fuck Ormewood, his wife, and the kids. I don't care if they cut both of them in half and give each half to the other parent. In fact, if I have to watch some Kramer vs Kramer bullshit next year, I will be actively rooting for the sword. 🤷🏽‍♀️

Edited May 27 by Badsamaritan

[Orbert]

On 5/24/2024 at 4:12 AM, Simba122504 said:

I liked how they explained it.  I don't have any numbers to back it up, but a lot of female killers are known to have drugged their victims, kill them in their sleep or had a male partner in crime. Ninjas are not as popular as people think. 😆

It makes sense.  A physically smaller, weaker person would need something to give them an advantage, and the drugs and sitting on them would definitely do the trick.  As I said, I did like how they'd explained it all.  It was just hard for me to accept because she still didn't seem mentally capable of being a serial killer.  Her talks with Angie gave me the impression that she was barely functioning as an adult, didn't have anywhere to live, etc.  And when it was suggested that that's why her storyline came back, I was still stuck on "Why are we revisiting this sad story?" even as people were pointing out how it all made sense, and then it did come together.  So kudos to the writers for coming up with a good season arc.  It's just a bummer because now every character on the show is messed up by it.

[Sarah 103]

On 5/23/2024 at 11:29 PM, possibilities said:

The Oremwood story is Kramer vs Kramer (anybody besides me old enough to have seen that move in the theater when it was first released?)... though Oremwood was a more involved father than Dustin Hoffman's character, before mom left. 

I was not born when Kramer vs. Kramer  first came out in theaters, but I did see it on DVD decades after it was released.

Although it is a good movie, very much of its time, and Hoffman gives an outstanding performance, there's no reason I can see to prioritize theatrical release. Movies on TV/rental of various format exist, and It's not Lawerence of Arabia, the 1959 Ben-Hur or one of the old school biblical epics that is legitimately better/demands to be seen on a big screen to fully appreciate it.  Unless I'm missing something, in which case I'll add to my list of movies to see on a big screen.

I can't picture a divorce plot line and custody battle being an enjoyable/interesting arc for season 3. 

[possibilities]

When it was first released, there was no way to see any movie other than on the big screen, in a theater. We didn't have streaming and DVDs back then. I don't even think we had VCRs. 

In any case, I don't think it's a great movie or worth going out of the way to see. I thought it was a slander on women, frankly. We have an obnoxious man who cares nothing for his wife or child. He berates and degrades her and she is having a breakdown and leaves in desperation. We don't get to see how she recovers or what happens to her at all. We see abusive jerk father/husband's heart grow 3 sizes as he's forced to take care of his child. Then when mom comes back, he blames her for everything and she agrees it's all her fault and that he should keep sole custody of the kid and she bows out completely.

Oremwood was not as bad as Hoffman's character. He was not a great husband but he wasn't aggressively abusive, and he was an involved father. So it's not an exact repeat. But there are similarities, in that we're supposed to sympathize with him and not with her. She had a breakdown and when she came back they wrote her to be unsympathetic all of a sudden-- in that she wants to take the kids away from him completely rather than just getting a divorce and working out a custody arrangement that allows them both to still parent. So, of course, he and the audience are on his side. But they chose to write it that way, to boost him and tear her down, even though she was never shown to be an unreasonable person before now, and he was not an innocent victim in the marriage, by any means-- he is the one who cheated, and expected her to just be cool with it because he said oopsie and wanted her to stay.

[fastiller]

7 hours ago, possibilities said:

When it was first released, there was no way to see any movie other than on the big screen, in a theater. We didn't have streaming and DVDs back then. I don't even think we had VCRs. 

In any case, I don't think it's a great movie or worth going out of the way to see. I thought it was a slander on women, frankly. We have an obnoxious man who cares nothing for his wife or child. He berates and degrades her and she is having a breakdown and leaves in desperation. We don't get to see how she recovers or what happens to her at all. We see abusive jerk father/husband's heart grow 3 sizes as he's forced to take care of his child. Then when mom comes back, he blames her for everything and she agrees it's all her fault and that he should keep sole custody of the kid and she bows out completely.

 

And Hoffman's treatment of Streep during filming was simply awful.  He used the recent death of her partner, John Casale, to 'direct' her during the court scene.  This didn't endear him to the actual director either.

[SharonH58]

I am missing something,  what about Amanda is everyone talking about?  I hated the ending with the Here's our happy life.  No way any of that would be true.  Why is Will just storming in and saying you are under arrest?  No talking with Amanda, building a case?   TV?

I like Ormewood.  He needed something more to do and has been good with his kids after the mother just disappeared.  

One thing I don't like about this show is they wrap things up too fast.  And that everyone wears winter clothes, and they are supposed to be in GA!!

[Orbert]

In episode 5, it came out that Amanda had planted evidence that got someone convicted of drug possession.  Since Will has to do the right thing -- it's literally compulsory for him -- it was assumed that he'd follow up somehow.  Break the story, try to persuade Amanda to come clean... something.  Instead nothing really seemed to happen.  When Will figured out what Angie had done, he was absolutely positive about it, and to him there's only one thing he can do: arrest her.  You could see how much it hurt him to do it, and there was probably a better way to do it, but he wasn't wrong.

I do like Ormewood 2.0 a lot more than original Ormewood.  It's just a bit hard for me to accept him since they seemed to go out of their way (the writers, that is) to make him such a jerk, only to have to dial it way back.  There haven't been that  many episodes, so it's not like it was a gradual change.

Yeah, they all seem way overdressed for the south.  Sweaters, suits of wool or other heavy fabrics, turtlenecks.

Edited May 30 by Orbert

[dleighg]

30 minutes ago, Orbert said:

Yeah, they all seem way overdressed for the south.  Sweaters, suits of wool or other heavy fabrics, turtlenecks

I live in NY and I don't even dress that way in the winter.

[Sarah 103]

On 5/29/2024 at 11:56 AM, possibilities said:

When it was first released, there was no way to see any movie other than on the big screen, in a theater. We didn't have streaming and DVDs back then. I don't even think we had VCRs. 

When it was first released that was true. My question was why you were asking who saw it in theaters specifically as opposed to just asking who has ever seen the movie. Why does it matter if someone saw it in theaters when it first came out in the 1970s as opposed to seeing decades later on TV, VHS, DVD, or streaming decades later? 

Edited May 31 by Sarah 103

[possibilities]

I was just thinking about it that way because I'm that age. 

[Ceindreadh]

On 5/30/2024 at 8:24 PM, Orbert said:

In episode 5, it came out that Amanda had planted evidence that got someone convicted of drug possession.  Since Will has to do the right thing -- it's literally compulsory for him -- it was assumed that he'd follow up somehow.  Break the story, try to persuade Amanda to come clean... something.  Instead nothing really seemed to happen.  When Will figured out what Angie had done, he was absolutely positive about it, and to him there's only one thing he can do: arrest her.  You could see how much it hurt him to do it, and there was probably a better way to do it, but he wasn't wrong.

 

To my mind, the difference is that Amanda's actions put a man in jail where he deserved to be (for assaulting her and probably other women as well), whereas Angie's actions let a killer go free and resulted in five more people being murdered.

Amanda's actions prevented further crimes, Angie's actions enabled them.

[Orbert]

That's all true.  But it seems (to me anyway) that Will wouldn't act as judge and jury in either case.  In both cases, there was wrongdoing committed by an officer of the law, and he had to do the right thing.

It's not a huge thing, especially since I personally agree that letting Amanda off the hook is actually for the greater good.  It's just that it seems a bit inconsistent on Will's part.  He would arrest his longtime friend (and oftentimes more than friend) and potentially destroy that relationship, but I don't remember if he did anything at all about Amanda.

[Ceindreadh]

@Orbert it's probably a matter of what Will can prove as well.  Angie's case is comparatively recent and Will is able to throw doubt on a lot of her story based on his analysis of the case file. 

Amanda's case on the other hand, the only proof he has is her confession.  There's nothing tangible he can point to (like the lack of defensive wounds on Angie) to make a case against Amanda.