S23.E05: Last Dance

[txhorns79]

Quote

When a woman is found murdered in Central Park, evidence points to two frequent park-goers - a street vendor and tech billionaire. In the face of extreme political pressure, McCoy takes drastic action to make the case.

Goodbye Jack McCoy!  

[ML89]

Opening statement:

Ladies & gentlemen of the thread, Jack at 80 some odd is a better lawyer than Price or Maroun will ever be.
 

I have many thoughts ….but I’ll wait for more players to arrive. Meanwhile, who in the “hey, it’s that guy” is the Mayor?

Edited February 23 by ML89

[Xeliou66]

Farewell, Jack McCoy, you are a legend and will be missed.

This was overall a strong exit for Jack, some of the flaws that have been present in the revival were present, but it was an awesome treat to see Jack back in the courtroom, and like Nolan said at the end he hasn’t lost a step. I loved seeing Jack take a strong stand for justice one final time and not give a damn about who a defendant is or what connections they have, Jack has always had the courage to take on the powerful who abuse the system, and it was great to see him do that one final time. It was fitting that Jack, who’s dedicated his whole life to the pursuit of justice, delivered it one final time despite great opposition, and managed to protect the integrity of his office and ensure that his office would continue to be honorable even without him as DA. Overall this was well done, and I’m thrilled that Jack went out as the hero he’s always been and didn’t get dragged through the mud. And it’s clear he had been thinking about retirement for a while, and if anyone has earned it he has. May Jack enjoy his retirement.

I loved Jack’s closing argument, even though I would’ve liked a bit more detail about the murder in it, Jack still delivered a passionate argument and it was a treat to hear one final closing from him. Also great was him confronting the mayor’s son on the witness stand and finally forcing him to give damning testimony against the perp. So glad they got Jack back in the courtroom for his farewell, no one will ever match Jack’s ability to prosecute a case.

The weaknesses were that it seemed there was a bit missing from the legal side, like there frequently has been on the revival - I would’ve liked to have had a bit more evidence presented, maybe some kind of piece of forensic testimony linking the perp to the murder, or get an ID from the maintenance worker and hear his testimony. And it was very predictable they would have an issue with the therapist, and frankly the therapist should’ve been held in contempt for refusing to testify. So it just felt like there should’ve been something more on the legal side, and they also rushed immediately to arrest the perp when it was revealed he raped the victim years earlier, I think a scene where the detectives searched his residence, found a piece of evidence linking him to the murder, then arrested him would’ve added a lot.

It was interesting that they added in a new fictional mayor for the first time, much like they added in fictional governor Shalvoy in the original run as an antagonist. It was nice that Jack got the upper hand on the mayor at the end and I’m sure the mayor’s close friend and donor being convicted of murder would be a big black eye to the mayor.

Shaw/Riley/Dixon were good as usual - nice call by Riley to realize the logo was Princeton’s logo and zero in on alums. The detective side just flows smoother and works better than the legal side right now.

Overall a nice farewell episode for Jack - he went out in true Jack McCoy fashion, delivering justice one last time and ensuring that justice will continue to be served going forward. Glad the final shot was him exiting and gazing up at the courthouse one last time. There were a few flaws with the plot as there frequently are on the revival, but they did a nice job of sending Jack into the sunset and that’s what mattered most in this episode.

Farewell Sam Waterston/Jack McCoy, you’ll be missed. 

Edited February 23 by Xeliou66

[txhorns79]

Just now, Xeliou66 said:

And it was very predictable they would have an issue with the therapist, and frankly the therapist should’ve been held in contempt for refusing to testify.

I didn't really understand her objection to testifying.  My understanding is the privilege belongs to the patient, not the therapist.  If the patient, or the patient's estate, has consented for the therapist to discuss the patient's care, the therapist can't claim privilege or refuse to testify.        

[MerBearHou]

Seeing Jack McCoy / Sam Waterston handle the trial and the closing argument just highlighted to me the puniness of Price and Maroun.  They are pipsqueaks compared to Jack.  Neither of the actors have the gravitas to handle their roles.  

Now the detectives are another story — they are sharp and very good at what they do (the detectives and the actors).  Loved that narrowing down to one Princeton grad in all of NYC.  

I’ve watched Law & Order since day one and I’m so very glad to have been here for Jack / Sam’s farewell.  End of an era… 

Edited February 23 by MerBearHou

[Xeliou66]

5 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I didn't really understand her objection to testifying.  My understanding is the privilege belongs to the patient, not the therapist.  If the patient, or the patient's estate, has consented for the therapist to discuss the patient's care, the therapist can't claim privilege or refuse to testify.        

Oh I agree 100%, it was just a plot device used so the DAs office would have to bring in the mayor’s son to introduce the rape. 
The therapist deserved to be jailed for contempt - it was absolutely legal for her to testify and her refusal warranted a contempt citation. 

[preeya]

Sam Waterston Takes His Final Case as Jack McCoy

https://bityl.co/OKQW

 

Farewell, Jack/Sam, enjoy your well-deserved retirement.

[edhopper]

More dumb law stuff. The shrink would have been forced to testify, but wasn't for "reasons". 

And Price doesn't let the witness explain his crimes with him asking, and leaves 8t to the defense, who will be less forgiving.

Jack is a better lawyer than both of them.

[ML89]

My problem was this - how did the victim get to be in the park at the same time as the murderer? They made a big deal of him ducking her texts and her not being a runner. Seems like that would have been a detail that might have been good to nail down. 
 

I miss Cutter and Rubirosa - Cutter would have probably been taping the Mayor while he was giving his whole “I’ll bury you” speech. 
 

‘I was happy Jack got to go out on his own terms and with a court case but to give up his job for Price? Nah. I’ll say that he resigned for the good of the DA’s office. Although whoever the governor appoints is going to have to go right into an election…

[Bumblebee84047]

Jack McCoy, you will be missed.  At least we got one final courtroom scene.

[SoapDoc]

4 minutes ago, ML89 said:

My problem was this - how did the victim get to be in the park at the same time as the murderer? They made a big deal of him ducking her texts and her not being a runner. Seems like that would have been a detail that might have been good to nail down. 
 

 

Dixon said that there was an article that said that the tech guy ran in Central Park every morning at 5 AM. The victim probably read that article and hoped to catch him while he was running.

[Bumblebee84047]

31 minutes ago, ML89 said:

. Meanwhile, who in the “hey, it’s that guy” is the Mayor?

That was bugging me the entire episode! His voice was more familiar than his face.  I looked it up afterwards.  It was Bruce Altman who, like many, has been in many episodes across the Law and Order franchise. 

I most remember him as Harvey Beigel from Season 1.  The mobster who was married to Christine Baranski. 

[ML89]

4 minutes ago, SoapDoc said:

Dixon said that there was an article that said that the tech guy ran in Central Park every morning at 5 AM. The victim probably read that article and hoped to catch him while he was running.

Thanks - i missed that bit although just after I posted I thought, wait, she did work for him…

 

[Madding crowd]

I thought it was a great send off for Jack. There are a lot of therapists who won’t testify even if their client is dead. They are right that clients won’t go to a therapist who will discuss personal issues a client tells them. I don’t know if she can legally be forced to talk about her sessions. She did turn over her records. 
I like Hugh Dancy a lot and think the court side is always cut short by having the cops pursue multiple suspects and have foot chases. I was hoping they could have found a friend or family member of the victim who knew about the assault. I understand their testimony may fall under heresay but they might have had texts or something which suggested the assault and where/when it happened.

[Guest]

Episode was fine for what it was, but as a send-off for Jack, I was rather abrupt and weak. I expected something much grander. The whole thing about Jack leaving didn't come about until the very end of the episode as a last-minute toss up. I guess I can't be too surprised because L&O has a tendency of just writing out characters abruptly even long termed ones.

Everyone bragging how Jack is a better prosecutor in the courtroom than Price and Maroon, is just desperation to show how much you guys miss Jack in the courtroom. Jack has been around longer and of course would outshine hem both even at his old age. That's no surprise. But let's not use this isn't to diminish Price and Maroon who are still good in their own way. I favor them more than some of the prosecutors we've had on this show in the past and even some of the other spinoffs. The hate they are getting is unreasonable.

I expected Jack to have more courtroom time if this was to be his big send-off. He only gets one witness and a closing statement? Rather ridiculous. As much as they wanted to utilize him during Seasons 18-20 more than they did with the head DAs in the past, which is reasonable since we followed Jack as the lead prosecutor for thirteen years before the promotion, I'm surprised they didn't do this then where he prosecuted a case.

But the way Jack left off was weak. It doesn't seem like him to just give up so quickly over what the mayor would do. His son wasn't really the one targeted here for the man to be all riled. If the son was the suspect here rather than that billionaire, then that would make better sense for this conflict. Nevertheless, I think Jack would have put up a fight and easily could have had the mayor removed if he did act phony to the DA's office. If anything, Jack should have left simply because he figured he was too old to go on and or health issues.

As far as Sam Waterston leaving the show, they really couldn't do this at the END of the season? Why do they have to make this casting change so early? A shame we aren't two years into this revival and we already lost three cast members. I was worried we weren't gonna keep a stable cast together each year as it's always been even during the original run. The L&O curse continues.

It just sucks Jack left because I was hoping he and Jamie Ross would interact again following that whole story-arc of hers from the revival premiere. The one scene they did share in that episode was cut so I was hoping she would come back again at the end of the season, but it never happened even now two year later. If they do bring her back, then any chance of Jack coming in for a proper reunion is slim to none now. What was the point even bringing her back and as an ADA given her stint as a defense attorney and judge? Nothing was even given to why she rejoined the office again and when. They were best not even having her there at all.

Edited February 23 by TrialByJury

[txhorns79]

9 minutes ago, TrialByJury said:

As far as Sam Waterston leaving the show, they really couldn't do this at the END of the season? Why do they have to make this casting change so early?

My guess was if they had, had a normal season, and not had the strike induced delay, they probably would have saved Jack leaving for the end of the season.  Or maybe Sam Waterston only agreed to come back this season for a limited amount of episodes so he could be written out.

17 minutes ago, TrialByJury said:

If anything, Jack should have left simply because he figured he was too old to go on and or health issues.

Robert Morgenthau, the real New York DA that Adam Schiff was based on, stayed in office until he was about 90. 

23 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

There are a lot of therapists who won’t testify even if their client is dead. They are right that clients won’t go to a therapist who will discuss personal issues a client tells them. I don’t know if she can legally be forced to talk about her sessions. She did turn over her records. 

If your client or your client's representative (such as an estate) consents for you to testify, you can legally be forced to testify.    

[Raja]

I loved DA McCoy stare down of the Mayor down after the verdict.

Once again we have the state offering a plea to an older person. What great deal is there to be in prison until you are 70 only to come out a felon? There's no reason  not to roll the dice on a jury.

[buttersister]

Bye, Jack.

 I ve never been more glad of so many seasons of McCoy reruns! Jack anytime.

And Sam? Blew Dancy off the screen in their shared scenes. 

Plot was whatever, putting the threats in there that Jack and Price could dismiss reminded me of Jack and Adam.

 

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I didn't really understand her objection to testifying.  My understanding is the privilege belongs to the patient, not the therapist.  If the patient, or the patient's estate, has consented for the therapist to discuss the patient's care, the therapist can't claim privilege or refuse to testify.        

The privilege does belong to the patient, but patient confidentiality survives death and often can't be waived away by survivors.  In fact, the psychiatrist should have never gone to the cops with what she knew. 

She probably could be made to testify by the judge, but that's a legal argument Price opted not to pursue for some reason. 

My frustration with the episode is the lack of evidence against the killer.  I would think there'd be more but they wanted to to make it all about some very vague, not very probative, testimony by the mayor's son.

[me5671]

53 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

I thought it was a great send off for Jack. There are a lot of therapists who won’t testify even if their client is dead. They are right that clients won’t go to a therapist who will discuss personal issues a client tells them. I don’t know if she can legally be forced to talk about her sessions. She did turn over her records. 

Eh, the therapist’s reluctance to testify was kind of silly and lazy writing.  I could see patients getting nervous if the therapist were testifying AGAINST one of her fellow patients, but that’s not what was happening at all!  The therapist was testifying in order to help convict THE PERSON WHO MURDERED HER PATIENT IN COLD BLOOD.  I can’t imagine many patients feeling uneasy about that.  I’d be glad that my therapist would be willing to stand up and speak on my behalf if I couldn’t do so for myself.  

Bye Jack McCoy!  You are an amazing, iconic TV character and will be missed. That was a fitting end for him. He sacrificed himself before he would even consider sacrificing his integrity or the integrity of the office. Very on-brand for the character. AND, he devised a way to do it that would out-maneuver the corrupt mayor, once more proving he is as intelligent as he is principled. 

whoever they bring in as the new DA is going to have awful big shoes to fill. 

[txhorns79]

13 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

The privilege does belong to the patient, but patient confidentiality survives death and often can't be waived away by survivors. 

While it's true that a random relative couldn't just waive the privilege, it can be waived by the person who is in charge of the decedent's estate.  That is why I presume they brought up that the sister consented.  

 

15 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

She probably could be made to testify by the judge, but that's a legal argument Price opted not to pursue for some reason. 

They did bring that up.  They said the Judge refused to make her testify.   

[Xeliou66]

9 minutes ago, me5671 said:

Eh, the therapist’s reluctance to testify was kind of silly and lazy writing.  I could see patients getting nervous if the therapist were testifying AGAINST one of her fellow patients, but that’s not what was happening at all!  The therapist was testifying in order to help convict THE PERSON WHO MURDERED HER PATIENT IN COLD BLOOD.  I can’t imagine many patients feeling uneasy about that.  I’d be glad that my therapist would be willing to stand up and speak on my behalf if I couldn’t do so for myself.  

Bye Jack McCoy!  You are an amazing, iconic TV character and will be missed. That was a fitting end for him. He sacrificed himself before he would even consider sacrificing his integrity or the integrity of the office. Very on-brand for the character. AND, he devised a way to do it that would out-maneuver the corrupt mayor, once more proving he is as intelligent as he is principled. 

whoever they bring in as the new DA is going to have awful big shoes to fill. 

Agreed completely with this, the therapist refusing to testify was just a plot device, I imagine most patients would want their therapist to speak up for them if they were murdered, so that didn’t really click for me that patients were concerned about her testifying.

Jack is most certainly an iconic character and I’m happy and relieved that he went out a hero in fitting style, delivering justice once more and ensuring the integrity of his office even after he’s gone. I was worried they would smear Jack in some way or send him out under a cloud, but they gave him a great exit overall, one of L&O’s best exits, right up there with Briscoe’s and Van Buren’s.

Tony Goldwyn has been cast to play the new DA, named Nicholas Baxter. His first episode will be on March 14. So next week there won’t be a DA character, I’m curious as to how they handle that. Goldwyn/Baxter has impossible shoes to fill, there’s no replacing Sam/Jack, but hopefully the character will be solid.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

Jack is most certainly an iconic character and I’m happy and relieved that he went out a hero in fitting style, delivering justice once more and ensuring the integrity of his office even after he’s gone. I was worried they would smear Jack in some way or send him out under a cloud, but they gave him a great exit overall, one of L&O’s best exits, right up there with Briscoe’s and Van Buren’s.

Tony Goldwyn has been cast to play the new DA, named Nicholas Baxter. His first episode will be on March 14. So next week there won’t be a DA character, I’m curious as to how they handle that. Goldwyn/Baxter has impossible shoes to fill, there’s no replacing Sam/Jack, but hopefully the character will be solid.

Oh please, his send-off was as abrupt. A proper build-up would be if he took over the case much sooner and had more to do in the courtroom, and him having more scenes with the mayor, and the mayor's son being the suspect. Lennie's exit was also abrupt. Did they even say in the entire episode he was retiring? That sort of just came up at the end. Van Buren had it best because she had a whole season arc devoted to her cancer. Jack could have gotten a season arc where he contemplates on leaving. 

So the new DA won't be seen next week? That's odd. Makes me think Sam will still be credited in the episode then even though he's gone now. They've done episodes without the DA there and it was just the two prosecutors so this isn't that big of a deal if the head isn't there. I'm just curious to why there's this gap to ease the new guy in. A missed opportunity to not have the DA be an ADA character we already know, like Jamie Ross. Imagine that one and rather a good way to bring her back. 

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

My guess was if they had, had a normal season, and not had the strike induced delay, they probably would have saved Jack leaving for the end of the season.  Or maybe Sam Waterston only agreed to come back this season for a limited amount of episodes so he could be written out.

Robert Morgenthau, the real New York DA that Adam Schiff was based on, stayed in office until he was about 90. 

Well given the season is as short as it is, they STILL should have saved him to the end. Sam coming back for a limited amount is useless because the season is already limited. He should have just stuck it out. 

Yes, I'm aware of Robert Mongenthau. I figured Sam wouldn't stick it out that long but if they had to write Jack out, it surely should have been something to do with him being old and having health issues than what they gave us. 

[baldryanr]

5 hours ago, TrialByJury said:

Did they even say in the entire episode he was retiring? That sort of just came up at the end.

Haven't watched that episode recently, have you?  Briscoe and Van Buren talked about it early on, then he broke the news to a surprised Green. It's not like they tacked on a scene of him walking out with his box of stuff at the end.  Which, to be fair, is the type of thing the show has done before (i.e. the clip of Logan punching a guy).

5 hours ago, TrialByJury said:

I figured Sam wouldn't stick it out that long but if they had to write Jack out, it surely should have been something to do with him being old and having health issues than what they gave us. 

So rather than having the character leave because he's sticking to his principles, you'd rather have a frail old man forced to quit because his body fails him?

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

Haven't watched that episode recently, have you?  Briscoe and Van Buren talked about it early on, then he broke the news to a surprised Green. It's not like they tacked on a scene of him walking out with his box of stuff at the end.  Which, to be fair, is the type of thing the show has done before (i.e. the clip of Logan punching a guy). 

So rather than having the character leave because he's sticking to his principles, you'd rather have a frail old man forced to quit because his body fails him?

I haven't seen the episode in years, but I know it wasn't anything they majorly touched on throughout the episode. If they only talked about it ONCE then that's still disappointing. I'm aware of the thing with Logan and that's literally what I'm talking about when I stated the show has done a poor job properly writing out characters and they do it so abruptly. 

Jack left out like a loser. Since when was he going to let some mayor cause him to quit his position and don't even put up a fight to get rid of him if need be? That was not a good send off. 

[Raja]

31 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

Haven't watched that episode recently, have you?  Briscoe and Van Buren talked about it early on, then he broke the news to a surprised Green. It's not like they tacked on a scene of him walking out with his box of stuff at the end.  Which, to be fair, is the type of thing the show has done before (i.e. the clip of Logan punching a guy)

True that, he even had the scene of going to 1PP for paperwork when he told Detective Green who went to the next phase of the case alone. I always complained that for dramatic purposes Detective Brisco  cleaned out his desk after the verdicts. I guess it is possible that he stayed on desk duty and/or burned off vacation leave and sick leave for the months in real life such cases would have taken. But I guess it did fit the Law & Order TV extra speedy trial model.

[TakomaSnark]

6 hours ago, TrialByJury said:

Oh please, his send-off was as abrupt. A proper build-up would be if he took over the case much sooner and had more to do in the courtroom, and him having more scenes with the mayor, and the mayor's son being the suspect. Lennie's exit was also abrupt. Did they even say in the entire episode he was retiring? That sort of just came up at the end. Van Buren had it best because she had a whole season arc devoted to her cancer. Jack could have gotten a season arc where he contemplates on leaving. 

So the new DA won't be seen next week? That's odd. Makes me think Sam will still be credited in the episode then even though he's gone now. They've done episodes without the DA there and it was just the two prosecutors so this isn't that big of a deal if the head isn't there. I'm just curious to why there's this gap to ease the new guy in. A missed opportunity to not have the DA be an ADA character we already know, like Jamie Ross. Imagine that one and rather a good way to bring her back. 

Well given the season is as short as it is, they STILL should have saved him to the end. Sam coming back for a limited amount is useless because the season is already limited. He should have just stuck it out. 

Yes, I'm aware of Robert Mongenthau. I figured Sam wouldn't stick it out that long but if they had to write Jack out, it surely should have been something to do with him being old and having health issues than what they gave us. 

Sam obviously is having more difficulty performing, it's very obvious this season. I'm sure he would have loved to continue through to the end of the season but it was his choice to exit at this point. All things considered, while I think the episode was generally mediocre - par for the course of the reboot - Jack in the courtroom delivered a dose of OG energy, thanks to Sam and Jack alone outside the courthouse at the end brought a tear to my eye.

[txhorns79]

7 hours ago, TrialByJury said:

Lennie's exit was also abrupt. Did they even say in the entire episode he was retiring? That sort of just came up at the end.

They did.  Though in his case, the character was being sent to Law & Order: Trial By Jury, so he wasn't really leaving.  Sadly, Jerry Orbach was already very ill by the time that show premiered so he only appeared in a few episodes before the actor passed away. 

 

1 hour ago, TrialByJury said:

Jack left out like a loser. Since when was he going to let some mayor cause him to quit his position and don't even put up a fight to get rid of him if need be? That was not a good send off. 

I didn't think he left like a loser.  He put the office above himself, and acted strategically instead of letting his ego dictate his next move.

Edited February 23 by txhorns79

[TakomaSnark]

1 hour ago, TrialByJury said:

I haven't seen the episode in years, but I know it wasn't anything they majorly touched on throughout the episode. If they only talked about it ONCE then that's still disappointing. 

There were two conversations about Lennie's leaving. I appreciate that it wasn't the focal point of the episode; it didn't need to be. He had a conversation with his Lieutenant and later with his long-term partner.

Also remember that Jerry was increasingly in poor health that last year of his life. You can see it at the end of S14 and even moreso in his brief TBJ scenes. 

Quote

Jack left out like a loser. Since when was he going to let some mayor cause him to quit his position and don't even put up a fight to get rid of him if need be? That was not a good send off. 

By resigning on his own terms, Jack took the wind out of the sails of the the Mayor's threats to end Jack's career with an election loss - not to mention take retribution against his staff for daring to prosecute the case to begin with. We get to see Jack a winner in court one last time and stand up for the integrity and independence of the District Attorney's office. That is the furthest from leaving like a 'loser' than I can imagine.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, TakomaSnark said:

Sam obviously is having more difficulty performing, it's very obvious this season. I'm sure he would have loved to continue through to the end of the season but it was his choice to exit at this point. All things considered, while I think the episode was generally mediocre - par for the course of the reboot - Jack in the courtroom delivered a dose of OG energy, thanks to Sam and Jack alone outside the courthouse at the end brought a tear to my eye.

It was decent. Nothing spectacular. I mean, it would have been nice if we saw MORE of him in the court room from the beginning, but oh well. And Sam being old and frail is why his role as a DA works because he's not really doing much besides being a speaking consultant to the actual DAs going around handling the case. He was never required to do much in this position anyway so he didn't really NEED to leave like this is EADA Jack we're seeing here from seasons 5-17. I mean, Sam could have left at the end of LAST season at this rate. When he signed onto the revival 10+ years after the initial run he was already up there in age and frail so why even join on? In this case three seasons in, this one was already gonna be short due to the strike so I think he was best just sticking it out to the very end. What's another seven or so episodes and him not needing to really do much?

22 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

They did.  Though in his case, the character was being sent to Law & Order: Trial By Jury, so he wasn't really leaving.  Sadly, Jerry Orbach was already very ill by the time that show premiered so he only appeared in a few episodes before the actor passed away. 

 

I didn't think he left like a loser.  He put the office above himself, and acted strategically instead of letting his ego dictate his next move.

I know the Trial By Jury story. I named myself after that show after all. He was better off not even being there at all. He did the same amount of work and things he did on L&O, which was really nothing too physical, so I'm not sure how that show was to be any better. But it was a real punch in the face people expected to see him there and Jerry then dies after two episodes. What a bummer.

Edited February 23 by TrialByJury

[Raja]

2 minutes ago, TrialByJury said:

When he signed onto the revival 10+ years after the initial run he was already up there in age and frail so why even join on? I

Getting Anthony Anderson and Sam Waterston was probably a demand that  NBC required to try again. In a way doing a solid for the employer who secured his family's finances.

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, TrialByJury said:

Price and Maroon who are still good in their own way

Can't agree. The writing for these two lets the characters down on a weekly basis.

While the sendoff for Jack was a bit rushed, I thought it was very appropriate, and I loved seeing him back in the courtroom. Some writer finally stepped up.

As for the therapist testifying, they could probably have set some limits on what could be divulged, but whatever, it was a plot point to get the mayor's son on the stand.

[Xeliou66]

30 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

They did.  Though in his case, the character was being sent to Law & Order: Trial By Jury, so he wasn't really leaving.  Sadly, Jerry Orbach was already very ill by the time that show premiered so he only appeared in a few episodes before the actor passed away. 

 

I didn't think he left like a loser.  He put the office above himself, and acted strategically instead of letting his ego dictate his next move.

 

29 minutes ago, TakomaSnark said:

There were two conversations about Lennie's leaving. I appreciate that it wasn't the focal point of the episode; it didn't need to be. He had a conversation with his Lieutenant and later with his long-term partner.

Also remember that Jerry was increasingly in poor health that last year of his life. You can see it at the end of S14 and even moreso in his brief TBJ scenes. 

By resigning on his own terms, Jack took the wind out of the sails of the the Mayor's threats to end Jack's career with an election loss - not to mention take retribution against his staff for daring to prosecute the case to begin with. We get to see Jack a winner in court one last time and stand up for the integrity and independence of the District Attorney's office. That is the furthest from leaving like a 'loser' than I can imagine.

Jack went out a hero and a on a literal win, not as a loser. He personally got one more conviction of a murderer and delivered justice to a victim one final time, and by retiring when he did he got the better of the mayor and prevented the chance of the mayor’s puppet running the office, now the mayor would have no reason to run a puppet candidate against a new DA he doesn’t even know, and he ensured his office would continue to function with integrity. And it’s clear he had been thinking about retirement for a while. It was a very strong sendoff for Jack.

And I’m glad they didn’t bring back any characters from the past, especially after how they crapped on Jamie in the revival’s premiere. It would’ve taken the focus off of Jack and the story. This episode delivered what it needed to deliver - sending Jack McCoy into the sunset as a hero and giving him a fitting exit.

[Irlandesa]

28 minutes ago, TrialByJury said:

IWhen he signed onto the revival 10+ years after the initial run he was already up there in age and frail so why even join on? In this case three seasons in, this one was already gonna be short due to the strike so I think he was best just sticking it out to the very end. What's another seven or so episodes and him not needing to really do much?

I think he signed on because he wanted to.  They've been trying to get this show back on the air for a decade so he probably had it in the back of his mind that he'd always come back but that he wouldn't stay forever.  He's also not retiring. He's just ready to do new things.  As for him leaving now, I speculated about this in the media thread but it could be because they all agreed for him to stay long enough for him to get a proper sendoff.  Or maybe they wanted to change midseason so we're used to the new DA.

I think the decision was probably made in conjunction with TPTB. 

[TheOtherOne]

12 hours ago, ML89 said:

I have many thoughts ….but I’ll wait for more players to arrive. Meanwhile, who in the “hey, it’s that guy” is the Mayor?

 

11 hours ago, Bumblebee84047 said:

That was bugging me the entire episode! His voice was more familiar than his face.  I looked it up afterwards.  It was Bruce Altman who, like many, has been in many episodes across the Law and Order franchise. 

I most remember him as Harvey Beigel from Season 1.  The mobster who was married to Christine Baranski. 

For me, he's Jack Crawley, the corporate executive who had a woman's boyfriend murdered and framed her for it to get her to sign off on fraudulent financial reports in the first season of Criminal Intent.

[ML89]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

Jack went out a hero and a on a literal win, not as a loser. He personally got one more conviction of a murderer and delivered justice to a victim one final time, and by retiring when he did he got the better of the mayor and prevented the chance of the mayor’s puppet running the office, now the mayor would have no reason to run a puppet candidate against a new DA he doesn’t even know, and he ensured his office would continue to function with integrity. And it’s clear he had been thinking about retirement for a while. It was a very strong sendoff for Jack.

I do wish Nolan had recorded the mayor's threat so that Jack could remake his  famous "if I eat my Wheaties" speech to the mayor vis a vis corruption. Cutter probably would have. Nolan's too nice a guy.

 

 

[baldryanr]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

I think he signed on because he wanted to.  They've been trying to get this show back on the air for a decade so he probably had it in the back of his mind that he'd always come back but that he wouldn't stay forever.  He's also not retiring. He's just ready to do new things.  As for him leaving now, I speculated about this in the media thread but it could be because they all agreed for him to stay long enough for him to get a proper sendoff.  Or maybe they wanted to change midseason so we're used to the new DA.

I think the decision was probably made in conjunction with TPTB.

That and he had a huge amount of leverage when working out his contract.  With all due respect to every actor who has passed through, there are still plenty of older fans who don't think it's a real Law and Order episode unless Lennie is cracking jokes and Jack is giving fiery speeches.  Jack isn't even the first white haired linchpin to leave a few episodes into a season (see Mark Harmon in NCIS).

In any case, maybe Jack can use his free time to reconnect with his irritating daughter or catch up with his old ADAs.

[MinorL]

It doesn’t make sense that the defense would try to impeach a witness with an affair when that witness was obviously trying to lie on behalf of her client. Why would she want to prove the guy who said the defendant was a victim of a politically motivated prosecution was lying? That would have been her original plan but she would have pivoted when she heard his testimony. I realize it was a plot device for the mayor storyline, but it was poorly done. 
 

Nice send off for Jack though! A true legend!

[Notwisconsin]

4 hours ago, baldryanr said:

Haven't watched that episode recently, have you?  Briscoe and Van Buren talked about it early on, then he broke the news to a surprised Green. It's not like they tacked on a scene of him walking out with his box of stuff at the end.  Which, to be fair, is the type of thing the show has done before (i.e. the clip of Logan punching a guy).

Briscoe didn't actually GO...He was on L&O: Trial By Jury for a few episodes.

[Xeliou66]

14 minutes ago, MinorL said:

It doesn’t make sense that the defense would try to impeach a witness with an affair when that witness was obviously trying to lie on behalf of her client. Why would she want to prove the guy who said the defendant was a victim of a politically motivated prosecution was lying? That would have been her original plan but she would have pivoted when she heard his testimony. I realize it was a plot device for the mayor storyline, but it was poorly done. 
 

Nice send off for Jack though! A true legend!

That scene could’ve been done more clearly, but after Jack finally got motive out of the mayor’s son by forcing him to admit the defendant called the victim an “uptight bitch” and that there was beef between them, the defense lawyer had no choice but to try to impeach his credibility and make the jury doubt what he was saying since he had just provided motive evidence. 

[Sake614]

As others have already said I thought this was a fine send off for Jack/Sam. Would I have liked to see more Court time? Sure but it wasn’t necessary. He trusted Price until the mayor threatened Jack and Price, at which point he decided to take matters into his own hands. 

As for there not being any mention of retiring, that’s kind of an L&O staple. The whole premise is that this show doesn’t rely on one character to survive. I don’t know how much I put Sam had into writing the courtroom scenes or if the writers just decided they had to do him justice, but it certainly showed that Price doesn’t come anywhere close to that level. Even when he has decent material, Dancy just comes off as too soft most of the time. And Maroun isn’t any better. I really do think they need to find new actors for next season. But they also need to start writing better scenes on the legal side. They are way too rushed and the prosecutors always end up caught off guard with their own witnesses. 

I’ll miss Sam but it’ll be interesting to see what Tony Goldwyn brings to the show. Since they hired a name, I’m sure he’ll get decent screen time.

[ICantDoThatDave]

It felt oddly appropriate to send Sam off having Jack get a guilty verdict no actual jury would have possibly delivered.

I can see the deliberations now:

Juror #8: "Well, there's no actual evidence he committed the crime, & there's another equally valid suspect..."

Juror #3: "But... don't forget he did totally say something slightly mean about her once 6 years ago."

Juror #5: "That's true. Did we hear any testimony as to why he would have said that 6 years ago?"

Juror #1: <checks notes> "hmmm... nope. Oh well, it's Sam's last episode though so... everyone good with Guilty?"

Other jurors "Sure, what the heck. Guilty."

[ML89]

39 minutes ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

It felt oddly appropriate to send Sam off having Jack get a guilty verdict no actual jury would have possibly delivered.

I can see the deliberations now:

Juror #11 (me): Well, he's obviously like that guy who ruined Twitter, so guilty!

[Arcadiasw]

9 hours ago, TrialByJury said:

 

Jack left out like a loser. Since when was he going to let some mayor cause him to quit his position and don't even put up a fight to get rid of him if need be? That was not a good send off. 

Maybe Jack in his 40s and 50s would put up a fight but Jack in his 80s may think differently and want to leave the fighting for the next generation and spend his time enjoying retirement and working on his relationship with his family. 

[Arcadiasw]

5 hours ago, baldryanr said:

 

In any case, maybe Jack can use his free time to reconnect with his irritating daughter or catch up with his old ADAs.

Now his daughter can't try to guilt him into letting her win a case next time. 

I thought since the revival they were hinting at Jack retiring but maybe I'm wrong. 

[MarylandGirl]

Got a little dusty in my living room right at the end there. That happen for anyone else?

[GHScorpiosRule]

Okay so I tuned in to see Sam’s last episode and it was VINTAGE Jack McCoy, to be sure. And I got the goosebumps. Especially in his closing. Urging the jury to make the right and ethical verdict. I remember his closing argument in “Virtue”  where he goes to several jurors saying give me x or I’ll have you arrested. I can do that because I’m the district attorney or sleep with me or …but y’all who have seen it know what I’m talking about. 

That said, and it could be due to how the show is now run, but too much shaky camera and it seemed they went to trial too quickly. Where was the questioning and investigating of different people, going down one path, and then another with the detectives? And SERIOUSLY? Putting your phone on speaker in a public place when your Lieutenant calls you about the case?

Again, too much music a la Criminal Intent instead of natural noise or silence.

At least the “dun-dun” came back.

And where was the back and forth between the attorneys before heading to trial? And talking about how the judge shot Nolan down instead of showing us? Another change from the original run. BAH.

And please. The judge asking what the jury’s decision was: guilty or not guilty? Since when? She’s supposed to read it, hand it back, and the foreperson states what their verdict is.

And just Jack and Nolan at the end? Guess what’sherface wasn’t worthy?

Anytime I see Bruce Altman’s name, I know he’s either going to be the killer or an unethical ASS. Yes, as Harvey in the first season, but also a racist ass of a defense attorney in Season 4-where judge Quinn shot him down and Ben told him with his argument about racial identification would have someone shoot him and that was the most comforting thought for him (Ben). Check out the dialogue in the quotes thread!😆😆😆

While the show even in the original run had its share of politics thrown in, the last season and revival have been more heavy handed. Give me assholes like Judge Feldman who have axes to grind or colleagues asking for favors instead this pile of bullshit with the fake Mayor.

And sorry Mayor’s son, but the DA’s office IS a political office. Well, the role of District Attorney is. So that line about politizing was another bunch of bullshit. Otherwise the number of rich killers wouldn’t get off. I wish Dick Wolf had written this. Or they could have convinced Rene Balcer.

As for abrupt? Well except for Lennie, Van Buren, and Jack, this show was known for the revolving door of cast changes. We never were told why Cragen and Paul left; they were just gone. Even after 10 years, we got useless Nora-no send off for Adam! ADAM!! The BESTEST DA!

So back to watching original for me.

Edited February 24 by GHScorpiosRule

[jcbrown]

22 hours ago, MerBearHou said:

Seeing Jack McCoy / Sam Waterston handle the trial and the closing argument just highlighted to me the puniness of Price and Maroun.  They are pipsqueaks compared to Jack.  Neither of the actors have the gravitas to handle their roles.  

Now the detectives are another story — they are sharp and very good at what they do (the detectives and the actors).  Loved that narrowing down to one Princeton grad in all of NYC.  

Totally agree. This episode emphasized, for me, that Sam Waterston is a vastly superior actor to the other two.

And I continue to enjoy the detective side of things. It is always a letdown when that part of an episode ends (in this incarnation of the show) and we switch to the trial part.

[Arcadiasw]

5 hours ago, TrialByJury said:

 

Meh, maybe. I think he still could have done SOMETHING and not just give up so easily because he's an older man now. The fight he showed in the courtroom shows he could have stuck it out and handled that mayor if need be. 

Where did you get that impression? I didn't see it at all. You're only saying that because he was much older now than where we last left him off in 2010, or SVU Season 19 if you're taking the spinoff into account here. 

 

Sam Waterston has accumulated many roles and wealth where he doesn't have to put in the grind like other actors if he doesn't want to. Maybe he wants to do something that requires less time or is different than a procedural drama. Watch his interview on the Today Show. He is ready to move on from Jack McCoy.

Sam Waterston did Frankie and Grace and the Elizabeth Holmes movie so there are other things out there for him. 

Wow. Way to put words in my mouth. Your arrogance and rudeness is raging. We're talking about an actor leaving a TV show. It's not that serious. 

I did state I could be wrong but I thought something was mentioned in season 21 or 22 but since those aren't available on Peacock I can't go back and confirm. My impression also came from Sam Waterston and Anthony Anderson returning for the revival. Based on interviews, it was my impression their return was temporary. 

[Guest]

22 hours ago, TakomaSnark said:

Sam obviously is having more difficulty performing, it's very obvious this season. I'm sure he would have loved to continue through to the end of the season but it was his choice to exit at this point.

I had responded to this comment already, but I want to emphasize more on this particular section. It was obvious when they brought him back on SVU Season 19, which was odd considering they initially retired the character in the show's Season 13 premiere, though never bothered to showcase or even name who the replacement was so this plot point was ignored. Sam looked no better now than he did when they brought him back in Season 21 so if physical attributes was an issue, he was best off not even returning in the revival at this rate. 

22 hours ago, TakomaSnark said:

There were two conversations about Lennie's leaving. I appreciate that it wasn't the focal point of the episode; it didn't need to be. He had a conversation with his Lieutenant and later with his long-term partner.

It ought to have been. A long-term character like that deserve to have his exit be a focus. I don't mean make it a huge big thing, but do something more for what it's worth. This wasn't just some mediocre short stint character here. 

22 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

 

Jack went out a hero and a on a literal win, not as a loser. He personally got one more conviction of a murderer and delivered justice to a victim one final time, and by retiring when he did he got the better of the mayor and prevented the chance of the mayor’s puppet running the office, now the mayor would have no reason to run a puppet candidate against a new DA he doesn’t even know, and he ensured his office would continue to function with integrity. And it’s clear he had been thinking about retirement for a while. It was a very strong sendoff for Jack.

And I’m glad they didn’t bring back any characters from the past, especially after how they crapped on Jamie in the revival’s premiere. It would’ve taken the focus off of Jack and the story. This episode delivered what it needed to deliver - sending Jack McCoy into the sunset as a hero and giving him a fitting exit.

I disagree with everything. Jack could have done more and went out better. They could have brought back Jamie. I feel their little issue from Season 21 that was just left lingering was not properly handled or closed up, especially given the fact they cut the one scene they had interacting with each other for some reason. That should have been addressed by the end of the season where Jamie returns and she has more moments with Jack to make up for the lack of it in the premiere and what was cut. 

21 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I think he signed on because he wanted to.  They've been trying to get this show back on the air for a decade so he probably had it in the back of his mind that he'd always come back but that he wouldn't stay forever.  He's also not retiring. He's just ready to do new things. 

What new things? A man his age is not able to get that much work acting-wise and he had twelve years in between to do other things. Clearly that didn't work out which is why he even came back for the revival because it's the biggest and long running role he's able to get now, so what else is there for him to try out that's going to equal this? He had a good thing going and it didn't require him to do much since this isn't EADA Jack here. The role as head DA already requires him to take a backseat and if he's still strong enough to do it then he should have just stuck it out. Many have left to "do other things" and hardly any has had any real success. This will bite him as it did for Anthony Anderson for example. 

20 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

Briscoe didn't actually GO...He was on L&O: Trial By Jury for a few episodes.

A few? More like TWO and what a waste that was. He was best off not even being on the show. How was this to require him to do anything less than what he was doing on L&O? He was doing the same sort of work and had the same amount of screentime. 

18 hours ago, Sake614 said:

Even when he has decent material, Dancy just comes off as too soft most of the time. And Maroun isn’t any better. I really do think they need to find new actors for next season. 

NO. We don't need any more casting changes at this point. We already lose three cast members not been three years into the revival and you're suggesting they get rid of TWO MORE? Oh no. You just better hope they write them better, though I can't really side with you on that needing to be done because I have no real issue with them. I noted above I favor them quite a bit. Maybe you still need use to them because they're newer characters, though by this point you should have grown to them already. 

14 hours ago, Arcadiasw said:

Maybe Jack in his 40s and 50s would put up a fight but Jack in his 80s may think differently and want to leave the fighting for the next generation and spend his time enjoying retirement and working on his relationship with his family. 

Meh, I'll let you slide with this one. Age can play a factor here, but seeing how he tore down in that courtroom as if he was still in his 40s and 50s, I still don't see him just giving up THAT quickly. 

14 hours ago, Arcadiasw said:

I thought since the revival they were hinting at Jack retiring but maybe I'm wrong. 

If that was the case then why even have him on for two and a half years? They were best retiring him on SVU before the premiere of the revival where we meet the new DA to replace him. 

11 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

At least the “dun-dun” came back.

As for abrupt? Well except for Lennie, Van Buren, and Jack, this show was known for the revolving door of cast changes. We never were told why Cragen and Paul left; they were just gone.

When did the dun-dun ever leave? It was always there. It's L&O: Organized Crime that doesn't use it at all. 

We've established the show has had a constant run of poorly written exits. I figured they would fix this in the revival, but they have not learned a thing and continue this ridiculous trend. 

3 hours ago, Arcadiasw said:

Sam Waterston has accumulated many roles and wealth where he doesn't have to put in the grind like other actors if he doesn't want to. Maybe he wants to do something that requires less time or is different than a procedural drama. Watch his interview on the Today Show. He is ready to move on from Jack McCoy.

Yeah, he had that as Jack McCoy - less time. If he wants to do something different than a procedural drama, then fine but the chances of someone his age landing a role is slim to none. Many studios don't even want to use aging actors like him since it's all about the younger ones. He better hae his fingers crossed he's even able to land something to this level next.