S04.E06: Part 6

[pezgirl7]

29 minutes ago, HDJulie said:

Where was Liz in the last scene?  That wasn’t their house. 

I think it was either a vacation home or Navarro's new home. Guess it depends on what you think happened to Navarro.

9 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

How did the scientists get blown out eardrums and scratched corneas? Are we supposed to think they were unable to come back and get their clothes due to an immediate avalanche?

I think that was because of the type of avalanche they were in. It seems plausible, especially the scratched corneas. They basically froze immediately.

My biggest issues with the finale were the cleaning ladies killing ALL the scientists when they didn't know if they were all guilty, and the tongue never being explained.

[violet and green]

9 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

I rewatched the scene, and although there are some lights around the perimeter of the ice lab, the end of the lab she was murdered on appears darker. Rewatching Annie's video, since she is pointing the camera up at the ceiling, it makes sense that the ceiling would be darker. I think the way she is holding the phone makes it seem like she's in a smaller space than she is. If she had been holding the phone upright, we would have seen more of the surroundings of the lab, but that would have given away the mystery too soon! Also, during the flashback to when she is first being stabbed, the lights are flickering.

Did you rewatch the episode where Danvers played Annie K's video over and over? Because that wasn't a slightly darker section of lab - it was in a dark tunnel in a cave, which contained prehistoric whale bones in the ceiling.

This show has plotholes that could bore their way to the Earth's core, and those that aren't stuffed with ghosts are just left hanging.

I'm just baffled 60+ million was spent on this thing, and the critics are lapping it up, and the entire finale was one plothole lazily covered over and/or condradicted by another - to the point the showrunner is out there currently making stuff up on the fly to explain all the factual errors and impossibilities and contradictions, and even her attempts to answer the shortfalls in her script and production make no sense. It's as if nobody read the full script at any point.

[pezgirl7]

Just now, violet and green said:

Did you rewatch the episode where Danvers played Annie K's video over and over? Because that wasn't a slightly darker section of lab - it was in a dark tunnel in a cave, which contained prehistoric whale bones in the ceiling.

Yes, and I don't think you can just assume she was in a dark tunnel. The fish's bones (I don't think it was a whale) were lit up enough to be able to see them and you can see the light reflecting off the ice. If it was dark, we wouldn't have been able to see the bones. As far as being in a tunnel, I didn't get that sense from the video. Like I said, because the camera is pointing up at the ceiling, it just seems like she was in a smaller space than she was.

[violet and green]

Just now, pezgirl7 said:

Yes, and I don't think you can just assume she was in a dark tunnel. The fish's bones (I don't think it was a whale) were lit up enough to be able to see them and you can see the light reflecting off the ice. If it was dark, we wouldn't have been able to see the bones. As far as being in a tunnel, I didn't get that sense from the video. Like I said, because the camera is pointing up at the ceiling, it just seems like she was in a smaller space than she was.

The science teacher said they were prehistoric whale bones.

I think when the video is shot in darkness and the walls behind her earthy and are clearly not any sort of lab, and Danvers goes off in a blizzard to find the cave the video was shot in, then we can safely assume it was in fact not shot in the secret underground lab below Tsalal.

[pezgirl7]

59 minutes ago, violet and green said:

The science teacher said they were prehistoric whale bones.

I think when the video is shot in darkness and the walls behind her earthy and are clearly not any sort of lab, and Danvers goes off in a blizzard to find the cave the video was shot in, then we can safely assume it was in fact not shot in the secret underground lab below Tsalal.

Thanks, I forgot about the part where he said it was a whale. Must have been a very long, thin whale.

I think most of the “walls” behind her are not walls but the ceiling, and they are made of ice. I didn’t see anything that looked earthy. You could see them sparkle. I think the point of the spiral bones was to link the area where the video was filmed to the ice lab. That’s why Danver points them out. They’ve found their crime scene. When Danvers entered the ice cave, she walked through them a bit before coming to the lab so it’s safe to assume the ice tunnels connect to the lab. The entrance must not have been that far from Tsalal though since they didn’t seem to walk that far. I think you’re putting too much into the difference in lighting between the video and the ice lab. I think between the bones, the murder weapon found in the lab, and the flashback of her destroying the ice lab and then being murdered in it, I don’t see how you can assume her video was taken somewhere else. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m sure production wanted the video to look dark and mysterious and didn’t want to give anything away. I guess I’d blame them for tricking us. 

Edited February 21 by pezgirl7

[Blakeston]

11 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

How did the scientists get blown out eardrums and scratched corneas? Are we supposed to think they were unable to come back and get their clothes due to an immediate avalanche?

I think maybe the idea isi that the scientists went berserk and died of fright before the cold could kill them. Scratching out your eyes could be a result of hypothermia - or losing your mind because you believe that a vengeful spirit has come for you.

I'm not crazy about them giving us "the scientists appear to have died before they froze to death" as a clue, when it really told us nothing. I don't like having to fanwank theories like this.

And Lund surviving several days naked in the ice was a totally unnecessary, unbelievable plot twist. Also, didn't they say in episode two that he was being taken to a hospital in Anchorage? They made it seem like Danvers and Navarro drove to the hospital when he woke up, and it's not plausible that they would have driven from north of the Arctic Circle to Anchorage.

[Madding crowd]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

I think maybe the idea isi that the scientists went berserk and died of fright before the cold could kill them. Scratching out your eyes could be a result of hypothermia - or losing your mind because you believe that a vengeful spirit has come for you.

I'm not crazy about them giving us "the scientists appear to have died before they froze to death" as a clue, when it really told us nothing. I don't like having to fanwank theories like this.

And Lund surviving several days naked in the ice was a totally unnecessary, unbelievable plot twist. Also, didn't they say in episode two that he was being taken to a hospital in Anchorage? They made it seem like Danvers and Navarro drove to the hospital when he woke up, and it's not plausible that they would have driven from north of the Arctic Circle to Anchorage.

People dying of fright wouldn’t all have the exact same reactions though. Maybe one person would scratch out their eyes, others might have a heart attack, pass out or any other type of response.

[Haleth]

I didn't dislike the conclusion.  I'm glad we got concrete, non supernatural answers to most of the mysteries.  In a previous thread someone joked that the grannies did it.  That isn't too far from the truth!  It seems pretty clear Annie told her circle of friends what was going on at the lab.  Maybe having yet another still birth angered her enough to reveal that the scientists were behind the pollution at the mine.  Once the women discovered the hidden lab and star shaped instrument they took action.  It didn't matter if any of the scientists weren't involved in killing Annie, they were all guilty for the deaths and disease brought to their community.

Whether or not you can condone vigilante justice, at least it was a solution to the mystery of how and why the scientists died.

I vote that Navarro was alive and living off the grid at the end.  

[Lassus]

13 hours ago, HDJulie said:

Where was Liz in the last scene?  That wasn’t their house. 

I wondered this too, and it was probably a new house; but honestly with all the dark, it COULD have been on the water for all we know.

[Lassus]

13 hours ago, violet and green said:

which contained prehistoric whale bones in the ceiling.

They specifically showed the bones in the ceiling in the last episode.  That teacher may have been an expert, but he was also teaching high school in the middle of nowhere, and watching a shitty video.

13 hours ago, violet and green said:

I'm just baffled 60+ million was spent on this thing, and the critics are lapping it up, and the entire finale was one plothole lazily covered over and/or contradicted by another - to the point the showrunner is out there currently making stuff up on the fly to explain all the factual errors and impossibilities and contradictions, and even her attempts to answer the shortfalls in her script and production make no sense. It's as if nobody read the full script at any point.

As earlier, you're allowed not to like whatever you want.  But this a larger debate about what makes up art and entertainment and why your thoughts on this show are not universally shared.  Unlike, say, the overwhelming public opinion of The Idol.

Edited February 21 by Lassus

[smartymarty]

On 2/19/2024 at 6:45 PM, Bannon said:

The most nonsensical part was the notion that pollution from mining was needed to thaw the permafrost sufficiently to recover ancient DNA. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Or that the pollution had to be in everyone's drinking water for the lab to obtain it. Couldn't they have found a way to collect the runoff before it reached the drinking water?

I wasn't necessarily disappointed with the season, giving up on the mystery though fairly soon and just enjoying Jodie Foster's acting and the scenery. During the last episode, however, I did comment that I did not care whether any of the characters lived. It had just gone on too long.

[SnarkAttack]

On 2/19/2024 at 4:43 PM, Snazzy Daisy said:

This season's biggest mistakes:

• Lack of investigation.
• Lack of concern for believability.
• Identifying itself as True Detective.

When it comes to Annie’s case, it’s an obvious rip-off of Wind River. It’s so predictable since episode one.

Lack of investigative work throughout this season is one thing. To have Raymond Clark telling the viewers what happened to Annie instead of Danvers and Navarro piecing it all together is just lazy writing. Then they torture Raymond (while making themselves some snacks) without trying to find out first whether he’s a witness or a suspect? It’s absurd.

Issa López really goes overboard with S01 references with no pay-off. Yeah, it’s totally believable for Raymond to blurt out that particular philosophical phrase from S01 while being questioned. Context be damned.

🙄🙄🙄

LOVED Wind River!

[violet and green]

10 hours ago, Lassus said:

But this a larger debate about what makes up art and entertainment and why your thoughts on this show are not universally shared. 

Is it? I thought I was just sharing my thoughts.

[violet and green]

10 hours ago, Lassus said:

They specifically showed the bones in the ceiling in the last episode.  That teacher may have been an expert, but he was also teaching high school in the middle of nowhere, and watching a shitty video.

Well, we can agree it was a shitty video. He was also the expert they went to for identification of the bones, and who gave them an indication of its location - as they were sure until that visit there were no ice caves in the area.

No, indeed, there were ice caves up by the something or other ranges, but they were extremely dangerous and they would need a guide to show them, he said.

These same ice caves that part-blind Otis pointed to on a map, up by something or other river. These same dangerous caves they went into without a guide, during a blizzard, found easily and just dropped into, carrying only a head torch and hand torch and no ropes, wearing insufficient clothing for the location and weather, and leaving no markers to guide themselves out again (as they had read the script for that scene so knew it was unnecessary). These same dangerous caves that led to the secret ice cave lab underneath Tsalal - all without noticing at any time that these caves were a few hundred feet from Tsalal! 

Good old Tsalal, which was some massive structure, yet built directly over a section of the ice caves they were melting with special pollution to extract their samples from, and just a few hundred feet from the sea and a section of ice so thin that Danvers got through it with a few whacks.

There was indeed a spiral of some sort of sea creature on the ceiling of the secret ice cave lab, but it was not what was shown or in the position seen in that, as you put it, shitty video.

[mledawn]

On 2/19/2024 at 5:43 PM, Snazzy Daisy said:

When it comes to Annie’s case, it’s an obvious rip-off of Wind River. It’s so predictable since episode one.

I missed this until someone else quoted it... How is Annie's case a rip-off of Wind River? The storyline isn't the same at all.

Is she an Indigenous woman whose death was not adequately investigated? Yes. That's not based on any movie, that's the ongoing real-life situation with missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. In Canada, Indigenous women are 4x more likely than non-Indigenous women to be 
victims of violence.

Edited February 22 by mledawn
Missed capitalising Indigenous

[pasdetrois]

The data change, but recent statistics state that Alaska has the 4th highest rate of Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women (MMIW) of any US state. Native women have always suffered high rates of violence, but there is more focus now thanks to activism and legislation. It's become trendy to feature MMIW in movies and TV (i.e., Alaska Daily). So I don't think TD copies Wind River; it's just another in the list that is growing.

One of the trends is violence clustered around "extraction sites," where resources are harvested near Native communities. It's a Petri dish for violence - the combination of money, poverty (Native), alcohol/drugs, the lack of response from law enforcement (not enough of them, or they don't care) and the transitory nature of the workers, who often have temporary contracts and can slip away if not caught. Remote locations make it easier to dispose of victims.

Edited February 23 by pasdetrois

[Affogato]

15 hours ago, violet and green said:

 

Good old Tsalal, which was some massive structure, yet built directly over a section of the ice caves they were melting with special pollution to extract their samples from, and just a few hundred feet from the sea and a section of ice so thin that Danvers got through it with a few whacks.

There was indeed a spiral of some sort of sea creature on the ceiling of the secret ice cave lab, but it was not what was shown or in the position seen in that, as you put it, shitty video. 

 

The circumstances the video were sot under were not ideal. 
 

the pollution was eating at the permafrost. The room under tslal was likely part of the lab, dug when it was built. The ice caves may have been a natural feature at some point and some distance from the structure  but likely were expanded by global warming and pollution. 

Edited February 22 by Affogato

[12catcrazy]

So, reading these comments during my incredibly boring work day are giving me as much entertainment as True Detective - Night Country (which I looked forward to watching every Sunday).

Folks, going all the way back to Season One, this show was called "True Detective" as a homage to trashy pulp crime fiction.  Think of the material that many of the 40s/50s Film Noirs were based on.   This stuff wasn't meant to be Dostoevsky, or even Hemingway - it is meant to be entertainment pure and simple.   The premise sucks us in with the supernatural voodoo hoodoo, and the crime and I think many of us are taking it way too seriously.     I remember how I felt at the end of Season One and was wrapped up in Carcosa and the Yellow King and half expected Cthulhu to come crawling out of a corner, and it turned out the killer was some  lawn mower  driving cretin who came out of an AIP Hippie Horror Exploitation movie.  So much for Carcosa... But I still enjoyed the hell out of the show.   

Anyway, count me in as somebody who really loved this show despite all the plot holes you could sink the Titanic in.  And also count me in as a person who believed that Navarro didn't kill herself and is doing the off the grid Spiritual Quest.  I think that she fought her demons and has come out on top, and that the Good Guys won.  

[grawlix]

On 2/21/2024 at 4:32 AM, Haleth said:

I vote that Navarro was alive and living off the grid at the end.  

I'm leaning toward Navarro is alive.  Navarro's house was basically empty when Danvers went there.   It makes more sense that she pack up possessions and left  in her car than if she committed suicide.

[paigow]

Navarro is dead... returning all the stuff is the first clue... Standing around the deck / porch with Danvers and not talking / arguing about anything is impossible unless it is now True Detective: Sixth Sense Country- but Danvers cannot see dead people...

[Starchild]

On 2/22/2024 at 10:16 AM, Affogato said:

 

The circumstances the video were sot under were not ideal. 
 

the pollution was eating at the permafrost. The room under tslal was likely part of the lab, dug when it was built. The ice caves may have been a natural feature at some point and some distance from the structure  but likely were expanded by global warming and pollution. 

I was thinking that when the scientists found her breaking stuff she tried to run into the caves, but they caught her and dragged her back to the lab.

[Snapdragon]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

Navarro is dead... returning all the stuff is the first clue... Standing around the deck / porch with Danvers and not talking / arguing about anything is impossible unless it is now True Detective: Sixth Sense Country- but Danvers cannot see dead people...

Thought it was that people gave away things when they were suicidal, not that they returned things.  I took the last scene to be that they had both reached a place of peace in their lives, so could just sit back and enjoy the scenery in comfortable silence.  

[peeayebee]

Yeah, until reading here about Navarro's possible suicide, I didn't think about it. That last scene, I thought they were just chillin' together.

Right now, I could go either way. I'd have to rewatch the ending to get to any more definitive impression, and I'm not interested in doing that.

[violet and green]

On 2/21/2024 at 4:09 AM, astrohip said:

Maybe it was different on various sources (HBO vs MAX or other?). There was a warning both before & after each episode for me (MAX).

Different source. I just checked my recordings. I was wrong that there was a warning on the ep where Julia walks into the ocean - there was no warning, bar a tiny "strong themes" up top left on the HBO logo screen before the show began. No other episode had a warning, and however anyone reads the ending, there was a clear suicide by Raymond Clark in that episode.

[kimbrchick]

When this season started, I had high hopes for it. In the first season the mystical or otherworldly aspects were centered mostly around the character of Rust. In this season we have Navarro and her sister experiencing supernatural visions. Their mother had it too so maybe it was actually related to mental health issues. We never really find out which is fine. Rose sees a dead Tavis Cohle and alludes to also interacting with other dead people. I also know that TV and films often portray other cultures with some kind of mysticism so that could be a part of it. I didn't hate the show but it didn't feel that satisfying in the end.

So at the end when we see Navarro standing next to Liz it was with the line like people never really leave us. I took that to mean that she will always be with Liz in spirit but not that she died. I know we see her walk into the ice but it just doesn't make sense to me to have her do what her sister did. She seemed to have left and moved on but her impact on Liz is still felt. Also, the case of Annie K. was wrapped up so she probably feels she can move on.

[Ottis]

On 2/22/2024 at 12:45 PM, 12catcrazy said:

Anyway, count me in as somebody who really loved this show despite all the plot holes you could sink the Titanic in.  And also count me in as a person who believed that Navarro didn't kill herself and is doing the off the grid Spiritual Quest.  I think that she fought her demons and has come out on top, and that the Good Guys won.  

And why did some of the native folks feel the need to wander into the ice and sure death? I've already posted that I, like you, can ignore the plot holes. I like the vibe and the characters (unlike, say, the recent season of Fargo, which made no damn sense to me in terms of characters and their actions and I quit watching 3 eps in).

But why the flirting with suicide? After thinking about it more, I suppose the message could be that the eons-old, wise ways of native people are being pushed out by progress (powered by white men, literally in this show), and that pressure is essentially driving some native people mad because they prefer the old ways. If so, fine, though it seemed highly selective as to who was pushed to madness. Maybe the show wants us to think everyone will eventually be driven mad one way or another, and Navarre did kill herself to show one of the most well-adjusted native women was not unscathed.

Still turning this thought over in my slow head. If that was the point, it's not a bad one. Nor, however, is it confined to indigenous natives. Even 65yo Republican white men don't like that the old ways are changing. Though it would be awesome if a few, selected examples would wander off into the ice, too. Note: I'm an old white man, I can say that.

Edited February 27 by Ottis

[12catcrazy]

2 hours ago, Ottis said:

 Maybe the show wants us to think everyone will eventually be driven mad one way or another, and Navarre did kill herself to show one of the most well-adjusted native women was not unscathed.

Still turning this thought over in my slow head. If that was the point, it's not a bad one. Nor, however, is it confined to indigenous natives. Even 65yo Republican white men don't like that the old ways are changing. Though it would be awesome if a few, selected examples would wander off into the ice, too. Note: I'm an old white man, I can say that.

I don't think that Navarro was well-adjusted - I think she was anything but.  I think that she was struggling mentally and was afraid that she was going to wind up like her mother and sister who had mental illness and substance abuse issues.  The question was whether she was going to follow the siren song of  "I want to end me" as the Billy Elish song went over the opening credits or would she reach the point of where she would choose to live in this world.  

I kinda like the thought of a select group of old white people wandering out on the ice as long as I'm not one of them, being old and white myself.   

[Ottis]

4 hours ago, 12catcrazy said:

I don't think that Navarro was well-adjusted - I think she was anything but.  I think that she was struggling mentally and was afraid that she was going to wind up like her mother and sister who had mental illness and substance abuse issues.

In comparison to those around her, Navarro was doing well. She had a good job, and seemed to be a good cop. Depending on your POV, she did something that needed to be done when she shot the abusive guy AND she was able to live with it afterward as the right call. She wasn't in and out of mental facilities, or wandering off naked in the snow, or forcing scientists naked into a storm.

Now, she feared *becoming* that way as you said, for a variety of reasons. But in terms of the present, I thought she was well adjusted. And in fact at the end I had hoped that resolving the mystery and murder might get her past her demons, and she would finally break free of her worries. Sadly, I  think I am with those who think she killed herself, and what we saw at the end was Navarro's comforting presence in the mind of Danvers, who understood that her friend had to resolve her own issues.

Can we pick which old, white, men wander into the ice? I have a list. 

 

[HDJulie]

On 2/27/2024 at 5:52 PM, Ottis said:

In comparison to those around her, Navarro was doing well. She had a good job, and seemed to be a good cop. Depending on your POV, she did something that needed to be done when she shot the abusive guy AND she was able to live with it afterward as the right call. ...

 

That reminds me -- wasn't it that situation that caused the rift between her & Liz?  Liz says in the last episode that she was about to do the same, so I don't see how it would have. 
 

When Liz & Navarro went to the cleaning lady's house, Liz introduced Navarro as her partner. Did she call her that at any other time in the show?  I don't remember it, if so, & thought that signified Liz once again respected her as a colleague. 
 

I imagine a lot of us here are old & white :-)

Edited March 1 by HDJulie

[lidarose9]

Maybe I watched too much TV during covid, but I quit after episode 2 and reading the comments here, I'm glad I did. Everything in this show is something I've already seen somewhere else, and most of it is overused, lazy, and shallow. I'm ready for something new or different. The evil mining corp, the "scientists" doing vague secretive research, the drunk Inuits, everybody sees dead people in Ennis, a micro-organism that cures cancer or whatever. All that joyless bonking, the middle-aged "troubled" cop struggling to balance private life, parenthood, job, etc... what a yawn. All of it.

The dialogue was just "off"... like the writer was going for a blend of film noir and Northern Exposure. It just did not work.

I did love the look of it, though. Good direction, great art direction.

It's a minority opinion, but I found the acting to be a huge problem. Jodie Foster's acting was horrible, awful, bad, pee-yew. Like she was trying way too hard, all the time.

But I really liked Kali Reis' acting. She's got the goods.

One reason why I hated this so much is cuz I just watched The Head and hated it too, for many of the same reasons. 

Edited March 8 by lidarose9

[MamaMax]

On 2/19/2024 at 11:19 AM, Bannon said:

Yeah, I don't think Navarro's suicide was especially ambiguous; her ghostly appearance in full winter trooper apparel on the porch, month's later, is pretty blatant, and as you rightly note, highly romanticized. Really, really, dumb, and if the implication is that this is how this particular native culture treats the phenomena of suicide of young, physically healthy, people, I'm pretty skeptical.

I went back and watched - Navarro is wearing black jeans and a hoodie in that scene, not her Trooper uniform.  

[Lamima]

On 2/19/2024 at 8:29 AM, Tachi Rocinante said:

Since it appeared she was wearing the same outfit, I took it to mean she was dead and her spirit was hanging out there.

When Navarro was telling Liz about the pull to just walk out to the sea, Liz asked her to come back which now seems to have meant 'in spirit'. So, yeah, I guess she did end it like her sister. 

Hank going in Liz's house and shooting the one drug guy. Then pointing his gun at Liz. Even when his son came. Kinda really far fetched. All he had to do was follow Liz to the ice cave with the drug guy and kill him more stealthily. 

Was a little something to fill my time but was not one of the best shows that's for sure.