S04.E06: Part 6

[pezgirl7]

Quote

In the midst of a brutal storm, Danvers and Navarro find themselves stuck at Tsalal with no electricity or means of contact. As the truth about what happened to Annie and the Tsalal men unfolds, Navarro and Danvers each confront the demons from their past.

Original air date: February 18, 2024

Edited February 19 by pezgirl7

[Penman61]

My list of questions this finale darn well better answer:

1. Who killed Annie K. and why?
2. Did a slab avalanche really kill the scientists?
3. How did Liz’s partner and child die?
4. Why was Annie’s tongue found at the Tsalal facility?
5. What did all the “She’s awake!” warnings mean?
6. What happened to Raymond Clark and why was he having that seizure in Ep 1?
7. Why the caribou mass suicide?
8. Folded clothes?
9. WTF with the rolling oranges?!?

Edited February 19 by Penman61

[snarts]

Danvers takes a nap? 

[AimingforYoko]

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

My list of questions this finale darn well better answer:

1. Who killed Annie K. and why?
2. Did a slab avalanche really kill the scientists?
3. How did Liz’s partner and child die?
4. Why was Annie’s tongue found at the Tsalal facility?
5. What did all the “She’s awake!” warnings mean?
6. What happened to Raymond Clark and why was he having that seizure in Ep 1?
7. Why the caribou mass suicide?
8. Folded clothes?
9. WTF with the rolling oranges?!?

1. The scientists for messing up their work.
2. Yep. With a little help from some pissed off natives with long guns.
3. Car accident. I thought that was answered earlier.
4. Still a mystery.
5. That Clark was driven crazy from guilt and grief.
6. See above.
7. The mine was poisoning the wildlife.
8. The women were cleaners at heart.
9. Like most in the film industry, Issa Lopez really liked The Godfather.

[Affogato]

The actor who played Hank said he (hank)had it, he apparently dropped it at Tsalal to mess with people.
 

Boy, people have to survive a lot. 

 

monster in the ceiling! In a spiral!
 

cleaning ladies for the win!

Edited February 19 by Affogato

[mjc570]

That was awful.  Boring, stupid, senseless.  What a waste of Jody Foster, Fiona Shaw and my time.  There was no detecting, true or otherwise. 

Edited February 19 by mjc570
further thoughts

[PsychoDrone]

The resolution was so mundane.  Cleaning ladies took revenge on the scientists for killing Annie.  Ok, but there are some issues with that.  Did all the scientists they condemned to die in the ice take part in Annie's death/coverup?  Were they all working at Tsalal when Annie was killed?  Some of them could have started later in the years since her death.  Some of them may not have known about the extent of the pollution/corruption with Silver Sky.

Some time after Annie's murder, employer: "You are being hired for this revolutionary project with super cures, but it is in Alaska".

Clueless scientist(s) hired after the murder: "Wow, sign me up.  I could be instrumental in finding cures for the ills of mankind. My work could be the reason I win a Nobel prize."

Cleaning ladies storm the facility.  Clueless scientist(s) again: "Whoa, what the hell is going on?  Why are these women pointing guns at us, taking our clothes, and effectively killing us by making us walk naked in a blizzard?!?!"

Vigilante justice, with potential for innocent bystanders, and they didn't get all of them (Clark).  I guess we're supposed to assume, and know, all the scientists were guilty.

Edited February 19 by PsychoDrone

[kay1864]

Worst cold-air breath CGI ever.

[Affogato]

8 minutes ago, PsychoDrone said:

The resolution was so mundane.  Cleaning ladies took revenge on the scientists for killing Annie.  Ok, but there are some issues with that.  Did all the scientists they condemned to die in the ice take part in Annie's death/coverup?  Were they all working at Tsalal when Annie was killed?  Some of them could have started later in the years since her death.  Some of them may not have known about the extent of the pollution/corruption with Silver Sky.

Some time after Annie's murder, employer: "You are being hired for this revolutionary project with super cures, but it is in Alaska".

Clueless scientist(s) hired after the murder: "Wow, sign me up.  I could be instrumental in finding cures for the ills of mankind. My work could be the reason I win a Nobel prize."

Cleaning ladies storm the facility.  Clueless scientist(s) again: "Whoa, what the hell is going on?  Why are these women pointing guns at us, taking our clothes, and effectively killing us by making us walk naked in a blizzard?!?!"

Vigilante justice, with potential for innocent bystanders, and they didn't get all of them (Clark).  I guess we're supposed to assume, and know, all the scientists were guilty.

It is established earlier that all of the scientists were thete for the duration. 

[WaltersHair]

Well, season 2 can breath a sigh of relief. It was just replaced by this one as the worst TD of all time.

It did succeed in making me feel cold and in a dark place. Has nothing to do with women being in the leads. The writing was just awful.

[Blakeston]

On one hand, I'm really glad that they gave us some solid answers to the mysteries, rather than some "was it a microbe that drove everyone insane, or was it supernatural divine justice? Who's to really say?" nonsense.

But there still are a few things that were very silly to me. Such as the cleaning women revealing what they did just because Navarro mentioned her indigenous name. 

And Rose is just a ridiculous wish fulfillment character. Knows everything about the physical and spiritual world, is happy to help hide a body in the middle of a blizzard, cooks an enormous feast for Christmas even though she lives alone, etc.

Also, it's kind of messed up that the cleaning women tortured and killed seven people based only on the evidence of them having a star-shaped drill, and that this was presented as "hooray for these brave heroines!" We know that the scientists all killed Annie, but they certainly didn't.

[sjankis630]

39 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Also, it's kind of messed up that the cleaning women tortured and killed seven people based only on the evidence of them having a star-shaped drill, and that this was presented as "hooray for these brave heroines!" We know that the scientists all killed Annie, but they certainly didn't.

I think it is inferred that the other cleaning woman took pictures of "some other evidence" etc etc .... gotcha! It is a known fact that the US used cleaning women to help defeat Hitler. You see they were cleaning his secret bunker one night  when one of the women discovered a half crushed swastika in the floorboards and went to investigate ...... lol.

That is one brave chick to climb down the hatch and investigate. One would think that the scientists knowing what they were doing was top secret would never have let anyone of those women out of their sight for any length of time... but I digress.

I guess we can say they went with the Murder on the Orient  Express solution.

Can someone answer a question for me? Liz and Navarro stuck in the freezing lab with just a small fire. I was thinking to myself .."isn't there gas in those trucks?" Then later they are seen driving one of the trucks into town. So they weren't actually in danger after all? Did I miss something?

Edited February 19 by sjankis630

[violet and green]

I have so many thoughts. How come these far, distant, dangerous ice caves, so far flung you need a special map and a guide, are just a few hundred feet from the Tsalal station?

How come that blizzard raging in the scene prior was no more than a light breeze that occasionally rippled the fur of Rose's hood, out in the burial by ice?

How come I was able to predict that an orange would roll into view?

How come the entire Wheeler crime scene was repositioned in this flashback, so they could fit in Rambo Navarro going for him with her gun? Where did his shotgun get to? How did his chair spin around away from the doorway, where his girlfriend's body lay just a foot or two away in the previous flashback, and move to the centre of the room?

How come some times there is mist exhaled when characters speak, and sometimes there is not - even when they are in the same location?

How come that ice cave scene reminded me of an episode of the original 60s Star Trek?

How come there was a significant power outage before the end of Annie's video and yet no power outage when we saw the flashback of her attacked and murdered?

How come those cleaning ladies knew all the scientists killed Annie? And how come they left no forensic traces behind them when they tore through the station chasing them? (I guess they went back and cleaned good, real good.) And how come no-one noticed when they had the photo of a three-fingered handprint on the boot of one of the scientists left behind back many episodes ago, that this might be a clue? And how come nobody bothered to ask the most important question of all: Who folded their clothes?

I could probably go on for 6 pages like this. But time is a flat circle.

Edited February 19 by violet and green
typos

[topanga]

19 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

And Rose is just a ridiculous wish fulfillment character. Knows everything about the physical and spiritual world, is happy to help hide a body in the middle of a blizzard, cooks an enormous feast for Christmas even though she lives alone, etc.

Also, it's kind of messed up that the cleaning women tortured and killed seven people based only on the evidence of them having a star-shaped drill, and that this was presented as "hooray for these brave heroines!" We know that the scientists all killed Annie, but they certainly didn't.

Rose is the manic-pixie Alaskan woman!

I'm going to fan-wank that the cleaning women who went into the underground cave found more evidence than just a star-shaped drill bit. 

And for me, seeing a "real" reason for people committing homicide (money, revenge, passion, etc.) is more satisfying that the countless movies and TV shows about psychotic serial killers who commit brutal murders just because. 

I loved the finale overall. The character development of Navarro and Liz, especially. About 90% of my questions about the mysteries were answered. I still want to know the significance of the oranges, what the crystalized foot/hoof print was under the counter (where Liz bumped her head), and who left Annie's tongue at Tsalal. 

The characters are what kept me on the edge of my seat the entire season. And the Indigenous community played a central role in the story. It wasn't simply a backdrop for the character arcs and hero's journey of the non-Indigenous characters. 

[sjankis630]

Am I the only one who felt that all of those cleaning women coming into the kitchen during the confession looked like the Avengers assembling? lol.

[Bannon]

Good gawd, that was too tedious for words, to the point that if I were to try to specifically explain why in detail, I wouldn't know where to start. You can have tremendous acting, but if the writing is awful, there's nothing to be done. Ugh.

[Bannon]

At least the writers for this trainwreck didn't put cobwebs in the ice tunnels, like the writers for the last season did in the tunnels below the spooky mansion in the last season. I swear, if they have another one of these dumpster fires, they gotta add a funky, 70s-style, van for the central characters to tool around in, and a huge Great Dane dog, that can approximate human speech.

[Snazzy Daisy]

Eddie Qavvik is now single...

😍😍😍

[juliet73]

3 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

My list of questions this finale darn well better answer:

1. Who killed Annie K. and why?
2. Did a slab avalanche really kill the scientists?
3. How did Liz’s partner and child die?
4. Why was Annie’s tongue found at the Tsalal facility?
5. What did all the “She’s awake!” warnings mean?
6. What happened to Raymond Clark and why was he having that seizure in Ep 1?
7. Why the caribou mass suicide?
8. Folded clothes?
9. WTF with the rolling oranges?!?

 

3 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

• The scientists for messing up their work.
• Yep. With a little help from some pissed off natives with long guns.
• Car accident. I thought that was answered earlier.
• Still a mystery.
• That Clark was driven crazy from guilt and grief.
• See above.
• The mine was poisoning the wildlife.
• The women were cleaners at heart.
• Like most in the film industry, Issa Lopez really liked The Godfather.

Thank you for these questions and answers.  This season was a total letdown!  It didn't seem at all like a TD series.  I did like the strong female leads and that's the only positive I can say about it.  The biggest negatives (besides being constantly confused right from the beginning) were there were too many plot holes, the dark scenery, a million different plotlines and lastly, flashbacks that seemed like they were added to this final episode at the last minute to tie up a poorly and lazy written story.  

[thuganomics85]

Well, at least they wrapped up the case and resolved the two murders?  Even if there are still a lot of questions and far-fetched moments?

So, Annie's death wasn't due to the mining company itself but instead.... it was the scientists this entire time!  Because it turns out that they were in league with the company because the pollution was actually helping them with their mission to find the all-curing organism or whatever.  Really, I'm sure a lot of that was scientific bullshit, but it's not like I'm expecting an education here.  But either way, Annie finds out about it and tries to destroy their work, only for the scientists to kill her instead (or really, Clark and another one, while the rest just stood around and watched.)  At least Clark did confess on tape, so what really happened to her came into light.

As for the scientists, well it turns out all of the Indigenous women that have been popping up throughout the series here as background/side characters; mainly as workers for the companies; ended up discovering the hatch that led into the scientists' evil lair in the ice caves (a classic!) and after they pierced everything together (a lot of it off-screen, it feels like), they basically avenged Annie by taking justice into their own hands by kidnapping the scientists, making them strip down and run out into the cold.  But as far as Danvers and Navarro are concerned, it's just a "story", and they are going to roll with their deaths being at the hands of an avalanche.  That is the most popular way to go in Alaska, I assume!

Peter successfully gets to Rose and disposes of his father's body, but I guess their moment was hinting that it will be something he always carries with him.  Despite, you know, Hank being the worst and still pulling a gun on Danvers.  But it looks like he's back home now.

Still never get a full picture of what happened to Holden/Danvers' son, but it seems like she and Leah are back on good terms.

Navarro ends things by finding her true name and... walking out into the ice?  And no one seems to know where she is anymore, but she does pop up at the end with Danvers?  Maybe I'm just too tired right now to figure that all out.

Better than season two for me, but I do think the writing let it down in the end.  Too many plots and not enough time/episodes to have a satisfactory ending.  Felt like we should have spent more time with the Indigenous workers, Annie, and the scientists to really make their involvement here mean something more than just plot points, and the case(s) themselves just had no urgency.  The characters we actually spent time on did have moments or two, but again, not enough material to be as fully as invested as I should have been.  The acting was good at least, but only Jodie Foster and, at times, John Hawkes really left a mark on me (even the usually reliable Fiona Shaw was kind of just there to spout quirky shit and be "eccentric.")  I'll obviously check out any future installments, but I definitely think this franchise peaked after the first one.

[CluelessDrifter]

7 hours ago, topanga said:

I still want to know the significance of the oranges, what the crystalized foot/hoof print was under the counter (where Liz bumped her head), and who left Annie's tongue at Tsalal. 

Navarro's Mom loved oranges.  It was there to raise the question 'are Navarro's family all really mentally ill, or is there something to the veil being the thinnest in Ennis?'  The crystallised mark on the floor was left behind by the tongue.  Who left her tongue is not clear.  All we know for sure is who it wasn't.  It wasn't the scientists.  

The cleaning ladies were pretty honest throughout their storytelling, but denied doing anything with the tongue.  Realistically, they're the only ones who had access to Tsalal and could have put it there before the delivery driver found it at the start, and if they got the cremation tech to keep a piece of Annie that may have been cut out but that was never mentioned as having been missing, they could have frozen it for use at a later date, and then left it as a clue to connect the two crimes and lead police in the direction it did to solve Annie's murder.

They had means and opportunity for the tongue, but the motive is a bit shaky as their primary objective seemed to be justice for Annie, they'd already found the perpetrators of Annie's murder, and got their own justice, so why draw the police on them?  That brings in the option of either the man who most likely cut her tongue out - Hank - holding onto it and putting it there, which doesn't make sense from a motive, or opportunity stand point, considering he wouldn't have wanted the two cases connected as a clean up operator to the event, and he had no opportunity to put the tongue there before the delivery driver saw the place was abandoned, or it could be the supernatural.  

Did Annie leave it there so that the truth of her death would be found?  That did ultimately lead to the shutting down of the company that was killing the people in the town, which was her primary goal.

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Still never get a full picture of what happened to Holden/Danvers' son, but it seems like she and Leah are back on good terms.

Holden and his father were in a car accident most likely due to a drunk driver.  There's the way Danvers reacts to the drunk driver in episode 1, and then there's the one time Danvers is shown driving drunk herself and sees the polar bear, which brings me to my next point.  I think that the living polar bear (through the stuffed polar bear) was a pretty strong metaphor for her son along with other references to people losing their left eye, so if we put those together, then we can kind of get a picture of what happened.

Edited February 19 by CluelessDrifter

[Affogato]

I think the details of the mytery were covered. Certainly I’ve looked over this forum and most of the problems with the story seem to be based more in a general dissatisfaction with the story that was told, and a wish to justify their dissatisfaction. It is, of course, okay not to like something without it being flawed. This story has more of the things I like in a story, and makes me want more to watch, and this was not true of the first season. 

I loved the crazy sound of the wind in Tsalal, a reminder of one of the Dyatolov theories, where people were driven out into the snow by the sound of the wind in the mountains driving them mad. I was once trapped shoveling a balcony (the door closed and locked) and had to beat a window open with the end of my shovel. I thought I was going to die, and I related to Danvers being trapped int he freezer. I liked that the ‘king in yellow’ story and spiral really had nothing whatsoever to do with what was going on, and I also might get a spiral representing the monster of the ice caves. Danver’s trying to peel the orange in one go and leaving the spiral…..I assume they will not find Navarro’s body because Rose will have laid her to rest with Julia. I assume that the scientists, who had spent a decade of their lives devoted to the pursuit of this world changing dna—by the way, ouroboros, time as a flat circle, the ice snake spiral—were crazy enough to attack Annie. Delighted that the clothes were folded by the women, and that they could have put them on and left, if they wanted. 

Danvers has been self destructive throughout, but Navarro in this episode gets her to listen to what Holden says, “I see you” and it relatably is what Danver’s needs, to remember that she needs and can be a better person. It brings her arc around. She is passive, particularly noticeable in this episode, letting Navarro take the lead. Letting Navarro make the hard decisions, do the hard things, get the hard truths. Avoiding responsibility, but when Navarro walks into the ice, she has to become herself. Navarro, as Leah tells her, spends the show straddling her two sides, without committing, but she takes a side in the episode.

I like some moments, like Danvers stepping back and letting Navarro take the lead when talking to the women, and letting Navarro decide what should be done. I liked the threat the women made as a group. I like that the past leaves an indelible mark on the future. I liked Pete lying awake in bed, and I wonder what happens to him. I liked Rose, the historian who cleans up the mess afterwards.

It is bittersweet that the scientists could, in fact, have changed the world. Just a few more years, perhaps. 

I will watch the directors next work.

 

. The spiral monster, the ouroboros, is time’s flat circle. 

Edited February 19 by Affogato

[Tachi Rocinante]

5 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Navarro ends things by finding her true name and... walking out into the ice?  And no one seems to know where she is anymore, but she does pop up at the end with Danvers?

Since it appeared she was wearing the same outfit, I took it to mean she was dead and her spirit was hanging out there.

[CluelessDrifter]

8 minutes ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

Since it appeared she was wearing the same outfit, I took it to mean she was dead and her spirit was hanging out there.

Yes, that was my interpretation too, and Danvers, who has never really been shown to see a spirit, doesn't act as if she sees her there.

Edited February 19 by CluelessDrifter

[violet and green]

1 hour ago, CluelessDrifter said:

The cleaning ladies were pretty honest throughout their storytelling, but denied doing anything with the tongue.  Realistically, they're the only ones who had access to Tsalal and could have put it there before the delivery driver found it at the start, and if they got the cremation tech to keep a piece of Annie that may have been cut out but that was never mentioned as having been missing, they could have frozen it for use at a later date, and then left it as a clue to connect the two crimes and lead police in the direction it did to solve Annie's murder.

They had means and opportunity for the tongue, but the motive is a bit shaky as their primary objective seemed to be justice for Annie, they'd already found the perpetrators of Annie's murder, and got their own justice, so why draw the police on them?  That brings in the option of either the man who most likely cut her tongue out - Hank - holding onto it and putting it there, which doesn't make sense from a motive, or opportunity stand point, considering he wouldn't have wanted the two cases connected as a clean up operator to the event, and he had no opportunity to put the tongue there before the delivery driver saw the place was abandoned, or it could be the supernatural.  

Someone said that John Hawkes said somewhere that his character Hank put it there. But that's quite the coincidence. I think no-one read the script properly or put more than a moment's thought into the logic of any of it; they were all too busy coming up with nice touches for their characters to think of plot and logic.

[CluelessDrifter]

1 minute ago, violet and green said:

Someone said that John Hawkes said somewhere that his character Hank put it there. But that's quite the coincidence. I think no-one read the script properly or put more than a moment's thought into the logic of any of it; they were all too busy coming up with nice touches for their characters to think of plot and logic.

I don't go based off of what's outside of canon as an explanation for things on any show I watch.  Sure, I read them, but it doesn't change what we're shown, and from what we're shown, it appears to be intentionally ambiguous, the same way that the oranges are, so we'll question if it's there because of real world reasons or supernatural, and there are no real wrong answers.

[Affogato]

3 minutes ago, violet and green said:

Someone said that John Hawkes said somewhere that his character Hank put it there. But that's quite the coincidence. I think no-one read the script properly or put more than a moment's thought into the logic of any of it; they were all too busy coming up with nice touches for their characters to think of plot and logic.

It is symbolic, Annie’s story is told. She discovered what happened at Tsalal and now, so does the world. It doesn’t actually matter who put it there, and this is a story that has a small supernatural edge. Not all questions have answers.

[violet and green]

6 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I don't go based off of what's outside of canon as an explanation for things on any show I watch.

Well, the writer and director has said that Hawkes and others were involved in rewriting their own scenes, etc; so that makes what he says about his own character's actions part of what passes for the canon of this series. surely.

Issa Lopez is a bit foggy on her own canon. On her IG she claimed the reason the Coast Guard picked up and magically identified Julia's body in such a rapid time frame was that a "fishing party" found the body. And I quote:

"A fishing party found her. Friends celebrating Christmas Eve in a fishing boat. Everybody knows everybody in Ellis."

Not the usual meaning of a fishing party! I think unexplored facts pointed out by viewers are being retrofitted to make sense of things that no-one thought to think of prior to spending millions making this series.

[cloeymoon]

A lot of questions, but one thing that doesn’t make sense is, Hank said he moved Annie’s body. Why and how? Did the scientists tell the head of the mines lady (Kate) that they killed her, and why would they do that? Seems like they would have disposed of the body since they killed her. But he’s conveniently dead so no need to close this plot hole I guess. 
Also where is Connelly? And would Navarro really kill herself after she gained some closure in finding out her name? Seems like at that point she had reasons to live, one being Qaavik.

Edited February 19 by cloeymoon

[CluelessDrifter]

8 minutes ago, violet and green said:

Well, the writer and director has said that Hawkes and others were involved in rewriting their own scenes, etc; so that makes what he says about his own character's actions part of what passes for the canon of this series. surely.

No, that isn't canon.  It's behind the scenes and doesn't change what's shown, particularly when there's nothing shown to support that as the undisputed answer to the question.

[Affogato]

Someone told Kate. Clarke is a good bet. She called Hank and paid him well, but he lost the money, to move Annie away from the cave. 

[violet and green]

1 minute ago, CluelessDrifter said:

No, that isn't canon.  It's behind the scenes and doesn't change what's shown, particularly when there's nothing shown to support that as the undisputed answer to the question.

I think I can safely say that what is shown is a hot mess.

Logically, there is no way for that tongue to get there. Perhaps it teleported.

[Bannon]

25 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I think the details of the mytery were covered. Certainly I’ve looked over this forum and most of the problems with the story seem to be based more in a general dissatisfaction with the story that was told, and a wish to justify their dissatisfaction. It is, of course, okay not to like something without it being flawed. 

I'll never try to tell someone that they should not like what they like, but.similarly, I also will never try to tell someone that that their dislike of a work is something they are trying to justify, since the work is without flaw. I didn't like this story for varied reasons. One of the more prominent ones was that the science put forth as supplying the central motivation for the 1st murder, and thus subsequent murders, is nonsensical. I didn't like it because we never spend any time with the characters who committed the 1st murder, and thus they are never really shown as real human beings with psychological complexity that results in a rather bizarre murder. They're just plot advancement devices, which is something that fiction needs at times, but hopefully not as central elements of what starts the plot in motion. I dislike the story element of the suicide of a young, physically healthy woman, being portrayed as peaceful, psychologically affirming event, as opposed to what my too-extensive experience with such suicides has been, which is that they are acts of profound despair, despair that is rooted in an inability to broaden one's horizons.

I could go on extensively with other elements in this story that I think were quite flawed, but like I said, I'm not trying to tell someone that they should not like it. There were elements that I liked, which is why I watched to the end. Ultimately, however, I didn't think the writing was good.

[Affogato]

9 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I'll never try to tell someone that they should not like what they like, but.similarly, I also will never try to tell someone that that their dislike of a work is something they are trying to justify, since the work is without flaw. I didn't like this story for varied reasons. One of the more prominent ones was that the science put forth as supplying the central motivation for the 1st murder, and thus subsequent murders, is nonsensical. I didn't like it because we never spend any time with the characters who committed the 1st murder, and thus they are never really shown as real human beings with psychological complexity that results in a rather bizarre murder. They're just plot advancement devices, which is something that fiction needs at times, but hopefully not as central elements of what starts the plot in motion. I dislike the story element of the suicide of a young, physically healthy woman, being portrayed as peaceful, psychologically affirming event, as opposed to what my too-extensive experience with such suicides has been, which is that they are acts of profound despair, despair that is rooted in an inability to broaden one's horizons.

I could go on extensively with other elements in this story that I think were quite flawed, but like I said, I'm not trying to tell someone that they should not like it. There were elements that I liked, which is why I watched to the end. Ultimately, however, I didn't think the writing was good.

Of course the story had flaws, but most of the details you mention  were not the main story. Most of the complaints are things that make sense or are justifiable in story.   They are set up for the main story. The main story is in the present time.

Also I don’t think there was enough science to pass judgements on, and I’m an old SF buff. i can suspend disbelief. 
 

Julia did despair of peace, Navarro had wheeler and later Clarke’s deaths to reconcile. 

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Of course the story had flaws, but most of the details you mention  were not the main story. Most of the complaints are things that make sense or are justifiable in story.   They are set up for the main story. The main story is in the present time.

Also I don’t think there was enough science to pass judgements on, and I’m an old SF buff. i can suspend disbelief. 
 

Julia did despair of peace, Navarro had wheeler and later Clarke’s deaths to reconcile. 

We're simply going to.have to agree to disagree that this story makes sense.

Edited February 19 by Bannon

[violet and green]

35 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I dislike the story element of the suicide of a young, physically healthy woman, being portrayed as peaceful, psychologically affirming event, as opposed to what my too-extensive experience with such suicides has been, which is that they are acts of profound despair, despair that is rooted in an inability to broaden one's horizons.

I found the romanticisation of suicide throughout the series - from the opening credits track, Julia's death, Travis's death as told by Rose, and Navarro's ambiguous ending - pretty reprehensible. Didn't get a warning on any episode, or the usual hotline numbers afterwards, either. 

[Affogato]

27 minutes ago, Bannon said:

We're simply going to.have to agree to disagree that this story makes sense.

There is an element of native legend to it, it makes a poetic sense. I think the tongue falls (sic) to that part. A native tongue.  It just isn’t a linear story. 
 

[Lassus]

11 hours ago, violet and green said:

How come those cleaning ladies knew all the scientists killed Annie?

The star-shaped instrument, the blood.

34 minutes ago, violet and green said:

I found the romanticisation of suicide throughout the series - from the opening credits track, Julia's death, Travis's death as told by Rose, and Navarro's ambiguous ending - pretty reprehensible.

Not sure it's entirely fair to include this, unless you're taking issue with the entire right-to-die movement for the cognitive, debilitated, terminally ill.  (which, if you are, fine, but it's not the same as Julia)

Also, am I imagining it, but wasn't there a hotline warning after EVERY episode?

Edited February 19 by Lassus

[Lassus]

I guess people can dislike it.  I didn't love the Navarro ending, but everything else was fine with me, and I thought the characters and lives and setting and story was totally compelling and a great enjoyment to watch.  Thumbs up as artistic narrative art.

Edited February 19 by Lassus

[Lassus]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

I think the details of the mystery were covered.

I just wanted to quote this initial sentence to tell you that I really liked your post.

Edited February 19 by Lassus

[Bannon]

35 minutes ago, violet and green said:

I found the romanticisation of suicide throughout the series - from the opening credits track, Julia's death, Travis's death as told by Rose, and Navarro's ambiguous ending - pretty reprehensible. Didn't get a warning on any episode, or the usual hotline numbers afterwards, either. 

Yeah, I don't think Navarro's suicide was especially ambiguous; her ghostly appearance in full winter trooper apparel on the porch, month's later, is pretty blatant, and as you rightly note, highly romanticized. Really, really, dumb, and if the implication is that this is how this particular native culture treats the phenomena of suicide of young, physically healthy, people, I'm pretty skeptical.

[RedDelicious]

I read in an interview with Kali Reis that Navarro's conclusion was purposefully ambiguous so the viewer could interpret her presence in the closing scene however they wanted. I like that. I choose to believe that Navarro checked out for a few years and lived in the remote house with Danvers visiting from time to time to make sure she's okay.

Navarro's Inupiaq name was explained to mean “the return of the sun after the long darkness".  That's what the closing scene in the beautiful winter light means to me. Navarro and Danvers needed each other in completely different ways, but in the end they both found their peace and their way to move on.

Edited February 19 by RedDelicious

[Lassus]

Danvers did actually say "I don't think you'll find her out on the ice" and took that to mean "dead".  So I don't know that I'd say she's dead by default.

I do think it's not a given that Navarro just did what her sister did, but I DO think something could have been done to make it less ambiguous while still being a mystery.

[tennisgurl]

Things ended up playing out somewhat the way I expected, more or less. We have a logical (if pretty wild) explanation as to why Annie and the scientists died and they were just human stories about cover ups and revenge, but a lot of ambiguity of whether more supernatural things are happening as well. The crimes themselves were pretty crazy but mundane, while the ghosts were more attached to the characterization stuff. The episode, like the whole season, was something of a mixed bag, but overall I still liked it and found it to be very interesting. It could be because I really enjoy a lot of the things this season focused on, ghosts, stories about ingenious people, creepy things happening in super cold places that drive people a bit crazy, its a lot of stuff that I am inevitably going to like. 

No matter what conversations have been started by society at large, American TV will really never give up on cops who go outside the law and torture suspects because "Its the Right Thing Damn It" or on vigilante justice as the best way to just real justice. 

The spirals really came back with a vengeance, the imagine of the frozen ancient fish swirling around the top of the creepy ice lab was my favorite of the show. I don't see this season as being literally connected to the first season but I do see a more philosophical connection about how people who are too isolated for too long in the wilderness can spiral into madness, whether its in rural Louisiana or in an isolated scientific base in Alaska. I also think that the spirals connect to the ghosts we keep seeing and Ennis being a sort of thin place between the living and the dead, so you have Navarro finding connection with her dead mom and making peace with her sister through visions of her deceased mother and Danvers possibly seeing her deceased son giving her closure and finding a way to be happy again knowing that he's watching her. It did remind me a lot of the end of the first season where, after nearly dying, Rust found his daughter in the stars which gave him a sense of peace and found purpose in existence again, while Danvers found that in seeing her son in the ice and feeling his prescience again.

It really is sad to me that the scientists felt like they had to go along with the mines pollution to continue their research and that they lost it and murdered Annie, not only because of the tragedy of Annie's murder but because they really could have done something great with their findings if things had been different. 

Poor Prior, at least he managed to make up with his family even if he is clearly not even close to ok after what happened. It wasn't as focused on as the living and the dead connection, but another way to look at the spiral is at generational trauma, both in families and in the town at large. We have the history of Navarro's family, with mental health and with their possible connections with the dead, and the Prior's history of abuse, Hank's father was abusive and he was abusive to Peter, and in his last scene spending time with his son, hopefully breaking the cycle even after everything he's been through. 

I can totally get why this wasn't everyone's cup of tea and it was certainly flawed, but I would rank it somewhere in the middle of the seasons, not as good as the first season but certainly much better than the second, probably about as good as the third season. I liked the ambiguity and the atmosphere, not knowing quite what happened to Navarro and if she went out and died, joining the spirits, or if she's just off the grid, and overall I enjoyed unpacking all of this.

[Blakeston]

2 hours ago, violet and green said:

I found the romanticisation of suicide throughout the series - from the opening credits track, Julia's death, Travis's death as told by Rose, and Navarro's ambiguous ending - pretty reprehensible. Didn't get a warning on any episode, or the usual hotline numbers afterwards, either. 

I definitely remember a trigger warning about suicide at the beginning of the episode where Julia killed herself. It made her death even more predictable than it would have been.

I agree completely that this show depicted suicide in an indigenous community in a very, very odd way. I have no issue with the depiction of a character like Navarro killing herself - these things happen in real life all the time. But it was presented as if suicide was the ultimate way for her and Julia to be in touch with their indigenous roots.

[iMonrey]

12 hours ago, sjankis630 said:

Can someone answer a question for me? Liz and Navarro stuck in the freezing lab with just a small fire. I was thinking to myself .."isn't there gas in those trucks?" Then later they are seen driving one of the trucks into town. So they weren't actually in danger after all? Did I miss something?

Here's what's dumb. "We're stuck here, because of the blizzard." 

Later: "The snow stopped. We can go now."

Uh, were the roads miraculously cleared the second the snow stopped? I didn't see any plows. I don't think the show understands how snow works.

Do all the cleaning ladies live in one house? Is that the official house of the cleaning ladies? I suppose the way they all gathered around their leader was meant to intimidate Danvers and Navarro, like "Yeah we killed them. What are you gonna do about it?" Lucky for them Danvers and Navarro were open to a little vigilante justice because really all they had to do was peace out then return with backup.

I'm glad we got some more-or-less definitive answers to both Annie's murder and the fate of the Tsalal Tscientists. It's more than I expected, frankly, as the season never seemed especially interested in either of those things versus all the character study and psychobabble, but that's pretty par for the course in this franchise.

At the end of the day this still felt like a 2-hour movie padded out to six hours of mostly bullshit.

[topanga]

1 hour ago, RedDelicious said:

I read in an interview with Kali Reis that Navarro's conclusion was purposefully ambiguous so the viewer could interpret her presence in the closing scene however they wanted. I like that. I choose to believe that Navarro checked out for a few years and lived in the remote house with Danvers visiting from time to time to make sure she's okay.

Navarro's Inupiaq name was explained to mean “the return of the sun after the long darkness".  That's what the closing scene in the beautiful winter light means to me. Navarro and Danvers needed each other in completely different ways, but in the end they both found their peace and their way to move on.

Well said. I never believed Navarro committed suicide--more that she just disappeared for a while. I like the (possibly) happy ending of her and Danvers being complicated friends. Leaving Qaavik though? *sigh*

[Zaffy]

Sometimes when you try to say too much you end up saying too little.

I would put the above as the real title of this season.
Overall interesting, with good intentions but with a quite messed up execution, kind of drowned in a pool filled with its own ambition.

Oh and Navarro must have the strongest head in Alaska. So many blows and not real damage. 

[aghst]

15 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

1. The women were cleaners at heart.

From Reddit: the cleaning women gave the game away by neatly folding the scientists clothes near where they were frozen to death.

Or it's a variation of "the butler did it" where some minor characters briefly introduced and mostly in the background end up having a leading role in the mystery.

It's one of the clear takeaways from this season, those indigenous women in Alaska are not to be messed with -- even though Ennis is a fictional place so who knows what life is really like north of the Arctic Circle.

The young ones like Leah and Kayla bring a lot of drama and if they don't walk off into the distance like Julia or Evangeline, they age into that angry mob meting out tundra justice.

I can't tell if Lopez felt obliged to maintain the Lovecraftian or supernatural elements through the end.

Or did she lean into it?

Clark saying time is a flat circle at the end seemed like a line that was forced in at that point.  I liked it better when Jodie Foster joked that time is a spiral -- which is a flattened circle, like Liz inadvertently peeling an orange with a knife and the resulting peel being a spiral.

Then there's the symmetry of Pete putting his father into a hole in the ice, after Hank pulled him out of a hole in the ice when he was a boy.

Or Liz hearing voices and seeing Holden under the ice, after angrily telling Navarro not to talk about Holden communicating from the afterlife.

Then Navarro has to Danvers out of the ice.

Finally, Evangeline walking off into the distance, as Julia had, as the reindeer had jumped off into the distance.

If they in fact wrapped everything up like a procedural with rational explanations for every event previously shown, it would feel like a CSI show.  But this is True Detective so of course there has to be some mythology at the end too.

[Cotypubby]

They way they were romanticizing Navarro’s longing to commit suicide as some kind of celebrated Native ritual to meet with her ancestors was pretty gross, especially with her being so upset when her sister killer herself earlier. 
 

I was glad we finally did get some kind of real-world explanation for the murders, but this season was terrible. The creators were much more focused on atmosphere than in telling a coherent story. “Some things have no answers” is not clever, it’s a lazy way of writing when you don’t actually know what to say. It’s better than season 2, but that’s hardly a compliment.