S04.E03: Origins

[Door County Cherry]

Quote

The story of how it all began. It’s twelve years earlier and Duke and Eliza meet for the very first time.

PBS makes the complete season available on Passport beginning on 1/7. Discussion in this thread may contain plot information pertaining to the episode before it airs on PBS.  Do not use spoiler tags.  

[Orcinus orca]

Good choice of both actors playing young Eliza and William.  And a first kiss!

Nice to get to know Eliza's father.  And what a lucky meeting between William and Mr. Scarlet who made William the man he is now.

[Souris]

I thought the actor playing young William had Stuart Martin's voice and cadence DOWN to an uncanny degree. I swear it almost seemed dubbed it was so spot-on. Major kudos!

[chaifan]

On 1/14/2024 at 11:11 PM, Souris said:

I thought the actor playing young William had Stuart Martin's voice and cadence DOWN to an uncanny degree. I swear it almost seemed dubbed it was so spot-on. Major kudos!

I actually thought the same thing about the actress who played young Eliza. 

This was an ok episode, but it was just filler.  It really didn't tell us anything new, or move forward any plot.  I'm ok with filler/flashback episodes when we have the good old-fashioned US season of 22+ episodes.  But when we only have 6 or 8, it seems like a waste of time.  I think something like this would have been more interesting if you had Eliza narrating the story to Fitzroy, with Fitzroy interjecting questions and observations, etc. 

For me, the biggest revelation is that Eliza is 28!  I always thought she was older, maybe early/mid-thirties. 

[libgirl2]

On 1/14/2024 at 10:11 PM, Souris said:

I thought the actor playing young William had Stuart Martin's voice and cadence DOWN to an uncanny degree. I swear it almost seemed dubbed it was so spot-on. Major kudos!

I thought the same too. Wow, wonderful choices for both of them. I enjoyed the episode. 

[KittenPokerCheater]

I really liked the episode, but I like it less if there are only 6 or 8 episodes.  Both young actors did a great job picking up the cadence of Miss Scarlett/The Duke (can’t remember the actor’s names).  The mystery was less interesting.

I love this show, and hope there will be another season.  I don’t have passport so I am watching the show on the PBS schedule.  

 

[taanja]

12 hours ago, chaifan said:

I actually thought the same thing about the actress who played young Eliza. 

This was an ok episode, but it was just filler.  It really didn't tell us anything new, or move forward any plot.  I'm ok with filler/flashback episodes when we have the good old-fashioned US season of 22+ episodes.  But when we only have 6 or 8, it seems like a waste of time.  I think something like this would have been more interesting if you had Eliza narrating the story to Fitzroy, with Fitzroy interjecting questions and observations, etc. 

For me, the biggest revelation is that Eliza is 28!  I always thought she was older, maybe early/mid-thirties. 

That ^^^ just kills me on these (PBS and other) shows! 6 eps -- maybe 6??--- and it's like whew! we have to go on hiatus now for a year or two!

It was most deff a filler ep. So Eliza is 28 and William is 30? They both look older. But people in the olden days DID look older! The two little actors did a great job though. 

It was sort of a let down when William woke up. It could have been anyone sitting there with him. it was sort of meh. Eliza was weirdly chill. Oh you're awake William. Cool. Gotta go!

[Trey]

I didn't even realize that was a different actress playing younger Eliza.  She looked so much like Eliza that I thought they had just done a great job with the makeup on Kate Phillips.

Anyhow, I enjoyed the episode even if it was just filler.

 

[sugarbaker design]

21 minutes ago, taanja said:

It was most deff a filler ep. So Eliza is 28 and William is 30? They both look older. But people in the olden days DID look older!

They're also dressed like adults, not like today.

This cute episode just reinforced my opinion that Eliza and William have more of sister/brother vibe than anything else.  They're both married to their prospective careers.

11 minutes ago, Trey said:

I didn't even realize that was a different actress playing younger Eliza. 

The resemblance was uncanny.

23 minutes ago, taanja said:

Oh you're awake William. Cool. Gotta go!

She didn't leave, she got up and poured him a glass of water.

26 minutes ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

 Both young actors did a great job picking up the cadence of Miss Scarlett/The Duke

Great job by the guest stars and the casting department.

[chitowngirl]

1 hour ago, taanja said:

13 hours ago, chaifan said:

That ^^^ just kills me on these (PBS and other) shows! 6 eps -- maybe 6??--- and it's like whew! we have to go on hiatus now for a year or two!

6 episodes is the normal number of episodes per series (season) for British shows.

[libgirl2]

13 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

6 episodes is the normal number of episodes per series (season) for British shows.

You are right. I watch a ton of British shows and 6 seems to be the norm. Even  now, streaming shows aren't anymore than maybe 8-10. 

 

Edited January 22 by libgirl2

[Orcinus orca]

I liked the episode, it was nice to see Eliza's father and get the background on how William came to be a cop.  And it was nice to see how Eliza and William came to be friends.

[libgirl2]

5 minutes ago, Orcinus orca said:

I liked the episode, it was nice to see Eliza's father and get the background on how William came to be a cop.  And it was nice to see how Eliza and William came to be friends.

I liked seeing her father too. I also like that he took William under his wing and was going to help him be a cop. I did feel bad because Eliza knows just where she fits and she will never be able to me more than she is (though we know better). 

[pezgirl7]

I guess I'm the only one who didn't like the casting for Eliza. I didn't see much similarity in the look or mannerisms. I would have preferred an actress who looked younger, and was thinner/more petite. Her lack of social graces definitely matched up though! Although I attribute that to the script. 

I was mostly annoyed that they decided to retcon their first kiss. I think it was in the first season when they mention that William kissed Eliza, and that she slapped him afterwards. But here we see that she initiated the kiss, which honestly seems a bit of out of character for her.

I just googled it to make sure I was remembering it correctly, and came across a podcast with the writers who said they thought a slap would ruin a lovely moment. They thought it would be more fun and would show more female empowerment if Eliza initiated the kiss. The character's memories are fuzzy, hence the difference from the season 1 retelling. They also say that Eliza rewrote the memory in her head. Ugh, I just find that all so dumb! I guess I will have to rewrite my memory of this episode in my head to fit my headcanon. 😆

[tennisgurl]

That really is great casting on young William and Eliza, I thought that it was just Kate Phillips wearing makeup for a minute. if I looked away it sounded just like adult Eliza and William, the resemblance was uncanny. This was a really cute episode, I liked seeing how Eliza and William first became friends, how William met Eliza's dad, and I really liked getting to know Eliza's dad more. 

I also always thought that Eliza and William were a bit older than 28 and 30, but people did come off a lot older at that time so it makes sense. I just cannot believe that I am actually a little bit older than William! 

Will this near death experience move their relationship along? Will William be taking a break from the force that will allow them to spend more time together? Will Fitzroy finish his long depressing Russian novel?!

[Dowel Jones]

6 hours ago, taanja said:

It was sort of a let down when William woke up.

And the first thing he says  is  "I could use a drink."  That's William.

[HoodlumSheep]

The Eliza and William mini-me's were ridiculously spot on.

On 1/14/2024 at 11:11 PM, Souris said:

I thought the actor playing young William had Stuart Martin's voice and cadence DOWN to an uncanny degree. I swear it almost seemed dubbed it was so spot-on. Major kudos!

So much this.

Rupert finally makes a return, but only in a flashback and played by someone else 😞

Younger Detective Scarlet did a fine job but I'm just a little bit sad we didn't get to see Kevin Doyle again.

 

[magdalene]

Until this flashback episode I thought they were both in their late thirties/early forties. Am I crazy?

[Orcinus orca]

59 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Until this flashback episode I thought they were both in their late thirties/early forties. Am I crazy?

For what it's worth, Kate Phillips is 35 and Stuart Martin is 38.  They both look their ages.

[Magnumfangirl]

I liked this one, but I think it would have been better if there had been more of William and Eliza in the present.  Maybe William could have woken up midway thru the episode and they recollect the rest of the story together...

Anyway, I agree that the young actor playing William had the voice and accent down perfect, but I wonder if Scots agree with us?  

[tv echo]

I agree that the casting of the younger versions was excellent. I enjoyed this episode because it gave me more insight into why Eliza and William are the way they are right now and also why they have this bond between them. But it's unfortunate that this season has only 6 episodes.

I thought the younger versions had instant chemistry. I initially got a Heathcliff and Cathy vibe when Eliza's father first brought young William home. But that vibe quickly disappeared.

[laredhead]

Does anyone know who played the younger versions of Miss Scarlett & The Duke?

[Orcinus orca]

16 minutes ago, laredhead said:

Does anyone know who played the younger versions of Miss Scarlett & The Duke?

Matt Olsen and Laura Marcus per IMDB.

[chaifan]

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

I enjoyed this episode because it gave me more insight into why Eliza and William are the way they are right now and also why they have this bond between them.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree.  To me, this episode didn't give us any insight into why William and Eliza are as they are today, in regards to them being/not being a couple.  The kiss made it even more confusing.  (Thanks to @pezgirl7 above, for explaining the retcon on that.)  There was nothing to explain why they are NOT together currently.

20 hours ago, pezgirl7 said:

I just googled it to make sure I was remembering it correctly, and came across a podcast with the writers who said they thought a slap would ruin a lovely moment.

20 hours ago, pezgirl7 said:

They thought it would be more fun and would show more female empowerment if Eliza initiated the kiss.

Again, thanks for posting this info.  My reaction to this is, wow, what lazy ass writers are on this show?  First, if sticking to the original version (Eliza slaps William when he tries to kiss her) would ruin a "lovely moment", then hey, don't write the "lovely moment" in the first place.  Second, they could have just as easily had William try to kiss her at the party, or in the coach, or something like that, and Eliza slaps him then.  Then, later at home, she could initiate a kiss, giving them the "female empowerment" that they so wanted to show.  Would that have really been all that hard? 

My theory:  The writers on this episode didn't know about the story of the slap. By the time someone pointed it out to them, things were already too far along to make any changes, so they're covering their asses with a lame excuse. 

I thought the episode was ok enough when I watched it, but the more I think about it, the more I think it was a bad idea and shouldn't have been done at all.

 

[pezgirl7]

9 hours ago, chaifan said:

My theory:  The writers on this episode didn't know about the story of the slap. By the time someone pointed it out to them, things were already too far along to make any changes, so they're covering their asses with a lame excuse. 

One of the writers of this episode is Rachel New, who is the creator and original writer of season 1. The other writer is her husband. She said they were in agreement right away that it should be Eliza to initiate the kiss. Perhaps Rachel regretted the way she originally wrote the kiss in season 1. They give a lot of reasons for why they changed it, but it kinda comes across as them trying to worm their way out of retconning the original script. Either way, I think it was silly to change it. 

Here is the exact transcript of that part of the podcast from the PBS site.

Quote

Jace Lacob: You mentioned the kiss, and I figured that we would actually see that in this episode, and I’m glad that we did. But what’s interesting to me is that when the Duke recounted this kiss, he said Eliza was crying because her dog had died. Here we see that her grief is far deeper than that. It’s jealousy over William joining the police force, something denied to her as a woman.

 

CLIP

William: I’m thinking about joining the police. Your father said he’d put in a word for me.

Eliza: You’re joining the police?

William: I still don’t know if I actually will, but they say the money’s quite good. God knows what I’d look like in the uniform.

Eliza: This damn…

William: Here, let me.

Eliza: No, I’m more than capable of doing it myself, thank you.

William: Have I upset you?

Eliza: No, it’s just this dog. This stupid, damn dog! It’s not fair William, it’s not fair.

William: Please, just stop crying.

 

Jace Lacob: And then she kisses him. How much is this act about Eliza exerting an agency here that’s denied to her elsewhere?

Rachael New: Oh, absolutely. It’s all about that. We had a lot of fun talking about the kiss. We were both in agreement straight away that it should be her. Because it’s much more fun, with Eliza as well, I don’t know how well you remember the conversation in season one about the kiss, but she was adamant that he kissed her and it was like, no, she kissed him. So yes, there is an awful lot of female empowerment there. But very early on, we decided it should be her to be the one that makes the move on him.

Ben Edwards: And also, again, if you watch the exchange between them in the pilot episode in season one, they talk about the fact that yes, he was consoling her over her dead dog. But then she says, and then they talk about the fact that she slapped him. And when we came to write it, we were like, I think that would ruin a really lovely moment if they kiss and then she slaps him. So, what we feel is that somehow, they misremembered it and that perhaps there’ll be another occasion in the future when they were younger where there was an attempt at a kiss and maybe she did slap him then. But that was one of those things we looked at and we just thought that would ruin a really beautiful moment if she suddenly slapped him.

Jace Lacob: He also recalls this as a “chaste kiss” when what we see here is anything but that. But my bigger question about that, that you’re touching on Ben, is what does this particular moment say about memory, about perspective or even about gender?

Ben Edwards: Well, certainly in terms of memory, of course, your memory changes, doesn’t it? It doesn’t stay the same. You project onto it what you want to project. And with the slap thing, again, we could argue that she thinks, well, I didn’t want that to happen, she’s rewritten in her head. But in terms of gender, yeah, absolutely. It’s good that she’s an unconventional person that doesn’t behave with the mores of the time. And therefore, her kissing him is very on brand with Eliza, rather than just waiting to be kissed.

There's much more in the podcast episode so I would recommend reading or listening to it. I read the transcript on the site as opposed to listening to it. Next episode will have Stuart Martin!

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 1/22/2024 at 10:10 AM, taanja said:

Eliza was weirdly chill. Oh you're awake William. Cool. Gotta go!

? Eliza didn't want to go anywhere. She was still adjusting William's pillow when the episode faded out.

On 1/23/2024 at 9:11 AM, Orcinus orca said:

Matt Olsen and Laura Marcus per IMDB.

And this is Matt Olsen's first acting role. Laura Marcus has had more, but not all that many. Her longest-running was 13 episodes of Bad Education.

On 1/22/2024 at 11:35 AM, libgirl2 said:

I also like that he took William under his wing and was going to help him be a cop.

I'm not sure what you mean here. We already knew Henry had done that.

On 1/22/2024 at 1:17 PM, pezgirl7 said:

Her lack of social graces definitely matched up though! Although I attribute that to the script.

Both of them must have studied the adult actors' performances.

On 1/22/2024 at 10:27 PM, Magnumfangirl said:

Anyway, I agree that the young actor playing William had the voice and accent down perfect, but I wonder if Scots agree with us?  

I'm half Scottish, and yes. His voice sounded exactly like Stuart Martin's at times. My mother thought so, too, and she's married to a Scotsman.

On 1/23/2024 at 9:47 AM, chaifan said:

 Second, they could have just as easily had William try to kiss her at the party, or in the coach, or something like that, and Eliza slaps him then.  Then, later at home, she could initiate a kiss, giving them the "female empowerment" that they so wanted to show.  Would that have really been all that hard?

That would have worked. I guess they didn't think of it.

On 1/22/2024 at 4:32 PM, tennisgurl said:

Will Fitzroy finish his long depressing Russian novel?!

They didn't say it was depressing, although with the Russians it's a good bet. Watching Young William, I was struck by how different he was from the young man he would eventually take under his wing.

[blackwing]

I really enjoyed this episode.  The actor who played Young William looked and sounded so much like Stuart Martin.  The voice was so good.  I thought the actress playing Young Lizzie didn't quite look the same, but the voice was great.  I actually found myself wondering if the voices were dubbed.

I don't buy at all that Eliza and William are only supposed to be 28 and 30.  They look far older.  Particularly William, he looks like he is pushing 40.

I enjoyed seeing Ivy.  But I really didn't need to see Mrs. Parker again.  I hope they never bring her back.  I know she was there for laughs, but still.

Who was it in this episode that made some allusion to Rupert being gay, something about how Mrs. Parker would be waiting a very long time for Rupert to get married.  Was it Ivy?  I cannot remember, but in the prior seasons, did Eliza already know that Rupert was gay?  And his mother was still ignorant?

[pezgirl7]

17 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Who was it in this episode that made some allusion to Rupert being gay, something about how Mrs. Parker would be waiting a very long time for Rupert to get married.  Was it Ivy?  I cannot remember, but in the prior seasons, did Eliza already know that Rupert was gay?  And his mother was still ignorant?

Ivy said something to Eliza about how she didn't think Rupert was the marrying type. Eliza asked her what she meant, but Ivy didn't respond. I always got the impression that Eliza didn't know he was gay until Rupert told her. I think that's when their friendship took off, because Eliza no longer had to worry about unwanted advances. I would have preferred to see more of young Rupert in this episode than Mrs. Parker.

Edited January 25 by pezgirl7

[Daff]

On 1/25/2024 at 11:20 AM, blackwing said:

Was it Ivy? 

Yes. She said, “He’s not the marrying kind”, and I think she’s said it more than once as I remember it from season one.

[RedbirdNelly]

I enjoyed the episode a lot. Young William sounded so much like the adult version I started doubting my eyes midway through--was I stupidly overlooking makeup/CGI on the older actor? was it dubbing? 

this isn't a show where I really need the overall plot to move that much--it's a crime of the week show with some background developments. So I enjoyed the look back to how their bond started and I felt for Eliza with William getting to do what she'd like to do. 

[Orcinus orca]

1 minute ago, RedbirdNelly said:

Young William sounded so much like the adult version I started doubting my eyes midway through--was I stupidly overlooking makeup/CGI on the older actor? was it dubbing? 

It's even more amazing because the actor is not Scottish!  In real life he speaks like Eliza.

[RedbirdNelly]

7 minutes ago, Orcinus orca said:

It's even more amazing because the actor is not Scottish!  In real life he speaks like Eliza.

I can't believe it was his first acting role. He did great. Someone hire this guy!

 

[HappyHanna]

On 1/23/2024 at 5:52 PM, pezgirl7 said:

She said they were in agreement right away that it should be Eliza to initiate the kiss. Perhaps Rachel regretted the way she originally wrote the kiss in season 1. They give a lot of reasons for why they changed it, but it kinda comes across as them trying to worm their way out of retconning the original script. Either way, I think it was silly to change it. 

I agree, and though I know what the writers said,  I'm pretending that the slap happened but this episode it was just William's flashback/dream so he prefers to remember it differently (ie with Eliza doing the kissing and not doing the slapping).