S01.E07: Freddy's Birthday

[Athena]

Quote

Frasier discovers that Freddy has been seeing Lilith behind his back, which sets up a battle between the two exes for their grown son's affection.

 

[shapeshifter]

Mostly excellent.

I was glad to see that I was right to suspect that Frasier's attraction to younger women in the previous episode was not definitive of his current character.

Bebe Neuwirth looked quite frail compared to the last time I saw her, and she's only 64. 
But then Kelsey Grammer (68) does too.

Edited November 16, 2023 by shapeshifter

[baldryanr]

I wonder if they reached out to Tom Brady for the cameo but weren't able to get him.

[TheOtherOne]

Enjoyable, and probably the best episode yet, even if it still felt slightly off. The insults were overwritten and too wordy--I immediately thought of the early interview the showrunners did where they admitted Kelsey told them they were using too many words--but Kelsey and Bebe know how to sell them, no matter how tongue-twisting. Lilith is such a well-defined character it made clear how some of the others--Freddy, especially Eve--are not. But watching Frasier and Lilith interacting is always a pleasure, and not remembering Alan was a good bit that made good use of both their characters.

I liked the callback to Freddy's goth past, even if seeing this Freddy opposite both Frasier and Lilith made it that much harder to believe this is the same character or that he came from these two people. I also appreciated how Lilith isn't as judgmental and disapproving of Freddy's life and career, unlike Frasier, which I would have thought she would be. It reminds me of "Lilith Needs a Favor" when Frasier said, "Lilith is a wonderful mother." As sharp-tongued and judgmental as she can be most of the time, she really is a good mother.

And as someone who always appreciated that they had the episode with Freddy's 13th birthday/bar mitzvah air the first week of November 2002, 13 years after his birth episode aired, also the first week of November in 1989, I'm glad this one was aired in November, unlike that typical TV thing of having characters' birthdays move all around the calendar.)

Edited November 16, 2023 by TheOtherOne

[Athena]

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Bebe Neuwirth looked quite frail compared to the last time I saw her, and she's only 64.

I noticed this as well when watching Julia. Bebe was a dallet bancer and musical dancer and petite. I've seen other dancers age more quickly visually especially if they continue to be fit.

I enjoyed the ep because of Lilith and Bebe. I always loved her on Frasier and Cheers. She has this surface coldness which is  charming. It makes people respect, fear, and admire her. I would be the same.

[AstridM]

9 hours ago, TheOtherOne said:

Enjoyable, and probably the best episode yet, even if it still felt slightly off. The insults were overwritten and too wordy--I immediately thought of the early interview the showrunners did where they admitted Kelsey told them they were using too many words--but Kelsey and Bebe know how to sell them, no matter how tongue-twisting. Lilith is such a well-defined character it made clear how some of the others--Freddy, especially Eve--are not. But watching Frasier and Lilith interacting is always a pleasure, and not remembering Alan was a good bit that made good use of both their characters.

I liked the callback to Freddy's goth past, even if seeing this Freddy opposite both Frasier and Lilith made it that much harder to believe this is the same character or that he came from these two people. I also appreciated how Lilith isn't as judgmental and disapproving of Freddy's life and career, unlike Frasier, which I would have thought she would be. It reminds me of "Lilith Needs a Favor" when Frasier said, "Lilith is a wonderful mother." As sharp-tongued and judgmental as she can be most of the time, she really is a good mother.

And as someone who always appreciated that they had the episode with Freddy's 13th birthday/bar mitzvah air the first week of November 2002, 13 years after his birth episode aired, also the first week of November in 1989, I'm glad this one was aired in November, unlike that typical TV thing of having characters' birthdays move all around the calendar.)

Loved it! Definitely the best episode yet. Goth Frederick is my favorite original Frasier episode ever, so I appreciated the callback.

[AnnaCody]

Lilith looked FABULOUS!!  And she really brought some of the old time Frasier with her.  I really enjoyed this one!

9 hours ago, baldryanr said:

I wonder if they reached out to Tom Brady for the cameo but weren't able to get him.

Or Gronk!  This would have been right up his alley 😆

[Sarah 103]

10 hours ago, TheOtherOne said:

I liked the callback to Freddy's goth past, even if seeing this Freddy opposite both Frasier and Lilith made it that much harder to believe this is the same character or that he came from these two people. I also appreciated how Lilith isn't as judgmental and disapproving of Freddy's life and career, unlike Frasier, which I would have thought she would be.

This episode was wonderful. The last time we saw Freddie he was a young teenager. People change so much between then and their 30s, so it doesn't bother me. 

As soon as Lilith and Frasier started talking/arguing about who knew their son better, I instantly thought of the Friends episode "The One With the Embryos" which has the trivia contest and Ross playing host, and how perfect David would be for the way too into it Ross like gameshow host, and that's pretty much exactly what happened. 

Eve's joke about Freddie turning 10 makes more sense later in the episode. It's actually kind of adorable. The bowling party is Freddie's chance to have the typical kid birthday party (with the more age appropriate twist of an open bar) he never experienced growing up. 

If Freddie's firefighter friends knew who Lilith was, then she must have not only known about the lies he he told regarding his past, but was more or less on board with them. 

Lilith was far more accepting of Freddie's change in life choices/career path than Frasier, which is interesting. This doesn't mean that Lilith immediately accepted it, but she is clearly on much better terms with her son and has clearly been part of his new life for longer than Frasier.

I loved Lilith and Frasier bantering/arguing, but there was something about it that bothered me. I don't remember seeing them go at each other like that in front of Freddie before. Maybe I'm forgetting an episode, but I never remember them behaving like this in front of Freddie on Frasier. When he was younger, they at least tried to be civil with each other when Freddie was in the room/within earshot. 

 

[Panopticon]

I love Bebe Neuwirth forever.

I adored Lilith's comment about Frasier's show and the walk-in tub ads... because I have 70-something parents who watch reruns of OG Fraiser every night on Cozi TV, and, yes, ACCURATE.

I also enjoyed Lilith's refusal to remember Alan. Honestly, this episode drove home for me how much I like Alan in general.

I liked the moment where Freddy and David mirrored each other's body language as the party collapsed.

Frasier's shot at Boston College felt very real. Freddy's line about working at Dunkin and the Vince Wilfork stuff felt more like trying too hard, but at least there's a real attempt to ground the show in Boston.

But I just couldn't accept the premise. I never, ever, not once, through eleven years of OG Frasier, doubted that Frasier and Lilith loved each other. They even said they loved each other, quite casually! Sure, they weren't capable of being married to each other. But they had almost identical values, education, and humor. They were a united front for Freddy year in and year out, whether it was getting him into the best elementary school or letting him know he couldn't extort expensive gifts out of them by weeping about being a child of a failed marriage.

I laughed quite a lot considering that I can't really say I liked the episode because I can't wrap my mind around Freddy not wanting his parents in the same room because they snark at each other.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Panopticon

[Athena]

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

Lilith was far more accepting of Freddie's change in life choices/career path than Frasier, which is interesting. This doesn't mean that Lilith immediately accepted it, but she is clearly on much better terms with her son and has clearly been part of his new life for longer than Frasier.

I loved Lilith and Frasier bantering/arguing, but there was something about it that bothered me. I don't remember seeing them go at each other like that in front of Freddie before. Maybe I'm forgetting an episode, but I never remember them behaving like this in front of Freddie on Frasier. When he was younger, they at least tried to be civil with each other when Freddie was in the room/within earshot.

 

58 minutes ago, Panopticon said:

But I just couldn't accept the premise. I never, ever, not once, through eleven years of OG Frasier, doubted that Frasier and Lilith loved each other. They even said they loved each other, quite casually! Sure, they weren't capable of being married to each other. But they had almost identical values, education, and humor. They were a united front for Freddy year in and year out, whether it was getting him into the best elementary school or letting him know he couldn't extort expensive gifts out of them by weeping about being a child of a failed marriage.

I laughed quite a lot considering that I can't really say I liked the episode because I can't wrap my mind around Freddy not wanting his parents in the same room because they snark at each other.

Yes, that part was less believable because Frasier and Lilith were aligned on co-parenting. Maybe that did change once Freddy became an adult so they saw each other even less. I also didn't like Freddy reacting to them not getting along or joking about liking stories about orphans. They are intense parents but good ones. Frasier has always maintained that Lilith is a great mother. It's really consistent with what we know of Lilith from Cheers and in this episode as someone who is very thoughtful and caring about her loved ones. I could believe that Freddy would open up to her emotionally about his life after he dropped out of Harvard.

To me, Lilith and Frasier are the One True Pairing (OTP). None of Frasier's other romantic love interests had the chemistry or compatibility he has with Lilith. I really hope Bebe comes back at least once a season. I would be satisfied if this series ended with them even hinting they would get back together.

[Magnumfangirl]

1 hour ago, Athena said:

To me, Lilith and Frasier are the One True Pairing (OTP).

I agree.  Those two belong together.  

[Bumblebee84047]

Bebe Neuwirth is a sparkling gift to all humanity.

[Annber03]

6 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I loved Lilith and Frasier bantering/arguing, but there was something about it that bothered me. I don't remember seeing them go at each other like that in front of Freddie before. Maybe I'm forgetting an episode, but I never remember them behaving like this in front of Freddie on Frasier. When he was younger, they at least tried to be civil with each other when Freddie was in the room/within earshot. 

I think for me, it was because I just kept thinking about the last time we saw them on the original series, where they got stuck in that hotel room together all night after they'd been led to believe their blind dates (which they didn't realize were each other) had stood them up. They had such a lovely parting conversation in that episode, and ended things on a really sweet note, so it was kind of sad in some ways to see them sniping like this again. Especially on Frasier's end, with all the names. 

At the same time, however, given the kind of life Frasier's been living these last twenty years, with the TV world he inhabited and the fact that he's already frustrated as it is about his difficulties with attempting to reconnect with his son, I reasoned that that might've explained some of the tension in this episode. Maybe Lilith didn't like the change she'd seen in Frasier with his TV career, and Frasier's jealousy over Lilith's relationship with Freddie makes his reaction make sense on that level, too. I genuinely felt bad for him when his Salinger pen got tossed aside like it did. 

But I am glad that they were able to have a nice talk at the end, and acknowledged that lingering affection for each other. Even if it came at a rather awkward moment for Freddie :p. And indeed, it's always good to see Neuwirth in general, so....

12 hours ago, Athena said:

I enjoyed the ep because of Lilith and Bebe. I always loved her on Frasier and Cheers. She has this surface coldness which is  charming. It makes people respect, fear, and admire her. I would be the same.

I loved the way Eve reacted to Lilith throughout the episode. The way she reacted to the look Lilith gave her after her comment about wanting to hug her was a perfect example of what you describe :D. 

I also enjoyed everyone ragging on Alan in that white outfit XD. 

[Egg McMuffin]

I always love seeing Bebe Neuwirth but I also can’t accept the premise that Lilith and Frasier can’t be in the same room together. That contradicts everything we saw in the previous two series. They’ve always had a great deal of affection for each other.

Why didn’t Lilith know that Freddy is living with Frasier? She lives in the same city and he’s her only child. Doesn’t she ever come over to visit?

The actor who plays Freddy is a dud. I don’t think the character is particularly well written or defined to begin with. But this guy adds nothing to the show. It reminds me of Tim Daly in Wings, another situation where a bland actor with limited comedy chops was cast, when a better comic actor could have helped the show rise to the next level.

[nora1992]

6 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I also enjoyed everyone ragging on Alan in that white outfit XD. 

In an already strong episode, Alan was the best part for me.  The end credits film with the white suit and black cat and villainous expression made me chuckle.  I can’t decide if raiding the ark or romancing the stone was my favorite reference.

[John M]

6 hours ago, Egg McMuffin said:

I always love seeing Bebe Neuwirth but I also can’t accept the premise that Lilith and Frasier can’t be in the same room together. That contradicts everything we saw in the previous two series. They’ve always had a great deal of affection for each other.

No, I can totally buy it, many marriages have failed because the couples can't manage interpersonal conflict or deescalate conflicts.

Yes, Lilith and Frasier love each other and care about each other, however they are both also incapable of not pushing each others buttons, know where all the buttons are and refuse to stop when it goes to far.

[Sarah 103]

5 hours ago, nora1992 said:

In an already strong episode, Alan was the best part for me.  The end credits film with the white suit and black cat and villainous expression made me chuckle.  I can’t decide if raiding the ark or romancing the stone was my favorite reference.

Seeing Frasier and Lilith make fun of Allan's outfit and Freddie getting in on the fun was the first time I really believed that this Freddie is absolutely Frasier and Lilith's son. 

52 minutes ago, John M said:

Yes, Lilith and Frasier love each other and care about each other, however they are both also incapable of not pushing each others buttons, know where all the buttons are and refuse to stop when it goes to far.

I agree with this. Also, I think Lilith's best/best cutting insult was when she made fun of the ads that ran during Frasier's talk show and then claimed to have never seen an episode, because she knew saying she had never watched his show would be something that would upset him and hurt his ego the most. 

[Chit Chat]

15 hours ago, Annber03 said:

They had such a lovely parting conversation in that episode, and ended things on a really sweet note, so it was kind of sad in some ways to see them sniping like this again. Especially on Frasier's end, with all the names. 

I agree.  I didn't like all of the sniping from both sides. I didn't remember them being so made at each other.  It was unnecessary.  

22 hours ago, AnnaCody said:

Or Gronk!  This would have been right up his alley 

Yes!  That would've been great! 

[benteen]

Funny and fun episode. Bebe Neuwirth always makes for a welcome return and you can count on the episode being good when she arrives. Some funny one-liners and burns and I too loved the Cranes ganging up on Alan.

Agreed Gronk would have made for a perfect cameo.

Freddy whines too much.

The character of David is just not working and seems completely out of place. The writing hasn't helped but again, the actor seems like he's doing a bad impersonation of Niles and of Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory. If this show has a second season, I would be fine with David not coming back. I like Alan, Olivia (who I wish had also been at the party) and Eve, who ai like better and better every episode. 

[Irlandesa]

I think the issue with the Frasier and Lillith dynamic in this episode is that they can absolutely be at one another's throats but, for the most part, they could be civil for their son.

I think they wanted to replace the chill that Niles, Marty and Daphne (because of her "gift") got whenever Lillith would come around and they used Frasier to do that. 

They should have had them start civil, and then slowly get more snippy as they got more competitive, only to bring it back to how they ended the episode. 

Or, instead of having Lilith not remember Alan, she could have remembered him and they could hate one another.  The jokes about him in that white suit were a lot of fun.

[Sarah 103]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

The character of David is just not working and seems completely out of place.

This episode was the best use of David so far. He works best in small doses and for a quick joke or two. His line about the winner getting to solve increasingly difficult series of puzzles/riddles was the first time I really believed this was absolutely the son of Niles and Daphne.  

[Yeah No]

On 11/16/2023 at 11:02 PM, Bumblebee84047 said:

Bebe Neuwirth is a sparkling gift to all humanity.

So true, I was thrilled to see her again, and no great shock or surprise, this episode was the best so far largely because she was in it.  Then I watched the first episode of the new season of "Julia" and saw her again there.  My parents absolutely LOVED her.  I could feel them loving her from heaven while watching her tonight.

On 11/16/2023 at 6:04 AM, shapeshifter said:

Bebe Neuwirth looked quite frail compared to the last time I saw her, and she's only 64. 

Wow, yes, I agree and you blew my mind there.  I thought she was at least 4-5 years older than me and I'm 65!

18 hours ago, Egg McMuffin said:

The actor who plays Freddy is a dud. I don’t think the character is particularly well written or defined to begin with. But this guy adds nothing to the show. It reminds me of Tim Daly in Wings, another situation where a bland actor with limited comedy chops was cast, when a better comic actor could have helped the show rise to the next level.

Thank you, I agree 100%.  I felt like he was dead air between his parents.  I barely noticed him.  He's out of his depth acting with them.  And I've also carped about his character not being well written or defined.

3 hours ago, benteen said:

The character of David is just not working and seems completely out of place. The writing hasn't helped but again, the actor seems like he's doing a bad impersonation of Niles and of Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory.

That's almost exactly what I said a few episodes ago.

I did love all the banter with Alan in this episode, though, about the white suit.  I lost count of how many characters or real people he bore a likeness to in that getup.  It was cracking me up.  I felt like the writing was better in this episode too, especially the dialogue between Frasier and Lilith.  I find that interesting.  Better characters, better dialogue, better delivery, better timing, better chemistry.  The list goes on.  It's too bad Lilith's character was only visiting the show.  It needs someone like her from the old cast on regularly to tie the whole show together.  Without that it feels like something (or in this case someone) is missing.

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, Yeah No said:

It's too bad Lilith's character was only visiting the show. 

Hopefully we might see Lilith/Bebe a couple of more times this season?

[Avabelle]

Good episode but I hate generic CBS comedy feel that Freddy, his roommate and David bring at times. They really need to define Freddy and find some sort of comedy niche for his character. I think the potential is there but for such a big part he’s very weak.

As said above, David is not working. I think they jumped the gun bringing him in so soon. They should have waited and developed Freddie a bit more and could then have properly cast David and built a bit of a traction around him arriving. 

[benteen]

22 minutes ago, Avabelle said:

Good episode but I hate generic CBS comedy feel that Freddy, his roommate and David bring at times. They really need to define Freddy and find some sort of comedy niche for his character. I think the potential is there but for such a big part he’s very weak.

As said above, David is not working. I think they jumped the gun bringing him in so soon. They should have waited and developed Freddie a bit more and could then have properly cast David and built a bit of a traction around him arriving. 

Interesting idea. The character of David might just have benefitted from that though you risk a Cousin Oliver situation. He feels like a fifth wheel on this show despite their being six cast members. 

Bebe usually popped up on Frasier once a year so I wouldn't expect her to appear more than that. 

[Sarah 103]

3 hours ago, benteen said:

Interesting idea. The character of David might just have benefitted from that though you risk a Cousin Oliver situation. He feels like a fifth wheel on this show despite their being six cast members. 

It's not a Cousin Oliver situation at all. Cousin Oliver was brought in because the youngest kids were too old to be the cute little kid. Cousin Oliver was designed to let the writers/series continue to tell the same kind of stories they were telling. David is serving a completely different role. 

I thinking take more before introducing David would have been a positive. It would have given the writers more time to figure out who the character was and what role he serves in the story/series. It feels like they did not put enough thought into who the character was or fully develop him as much as they could have. 

[Guest]

I think it’s interesting how differently the character dynamics can be viewed because I thought Fraiser and Lilith’s dynamic was perfectly in character with how they were on Frasier. They could work their way around to a good resolution but with lots of sniping at each other in the process. 

Not long ago I watched the episode where Frasier gets arrested after offering a prostitute a ride home and he tells Freddy, “For the next couple of days, you're going to hear some rather nasty stories and some snide jokes about your old man” and Freddy responds with, “Mom's coming?” Trading barbs is as natural as breathing for those two. 

[Nozycat]

2 hours ago, Dani said:

Trading barbs is as natural as breathing for those two.

Yeah that's what I think too and am surprised at people saying they didn't do that.  This is the first ep I sort of liked, but still not as good as the original for me.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

It's not a Cousin Oliver situation at all. Cousin Oliver was brought in because the youngest kids were too old to be the cute little kid. Cousin Oliver was designed to let the writers/series continue to tell the same kind of stories they were telling. David is serving a completely different role. 

I'm not familiar with Cousin Oliver, but you've described the trope well. 
I didn't own a TV when the OG Frasier aired, and I've only watched it sporadically in reruns, but I have seen the bulk of the OG episodes. 
Still, my viewpoint/interpretation of David will likely be different than that of most viewers:
I do see David as a sort of Cousin Oliver, in that Frasier and Allan (and Lilith) are now senior citizens, so David is (to me) a less mature version of Niles.
Freddy too is younger than Frasier was, and although he is not like Frasier was, he is not entirely different either — as a son might be IRL.🤷🏻‍♀️

Edited November 18, 2023 by shapeshifter

[Sarah 103]

21 hours ago, Nozycat said:

Yeah that's what I think too and am surprised at people saying they didn't do that.  This is the first ep I sort of liked, but still not as good as the original for me.

Frasier and Lilith argued and traded cutting remarks all through the original series. To me, the big difference was it was just the two of them alone or among another adults. I do not remember them going at each other that way when Freddie was in the room. I agree with your overall assessment of the episode. 

20 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I do see David as a sort of Cousin Oliver, in that Frasier and Allan (and Lilith) are now senior citizens, so David is (to me) a less mature version of Niles.
Freddy too is younger than Frasier was, and although he is not like Frasier was, he is not entirely different either — as a son might be IRL.🤷🏻‍♀️

I would be okay with David as a less mature version of Niles. I am not okay with David as an overgrown child. Show me more of the version of David who was running the trivia game and less of the version of David who was mistaken for an orphan when he visited the firehouse.  

I thought Freddie in this series was pretty close in age to how old Frasier was at the start of his series (the original Frasier). 

[John M]

Even though my husband was a fan of original Frasier I have secretly been watching this behind his back and not with him because, I just didn't think it was very good. It wasn't bad, just, not something I wanted to have him watch with me.

This was the first episode I genuinely wanted him to watch and he really enjoyed it.

I think pretty much every good show takes a bit to find it's footing and it feels like with this episode, even if it is not completely there, it feels like they are going to make it.

Also, Allan, I was iffy on him but I really got him this episode, I think part of the show finding it's footing. I'm thinking in my own life a have a few extremely close friends that people wouldn't necessarily know how close we are. Like if I died, they would move heaven and earth to be at my funeral and people that I am very close with would be like, who are you? How could you possibly know 20 years of deeply personal history of him and I've never heard your name before? That's Allan.

Edited November 19, 2023 by John M

[sharmar]

I did not get all the references to Frasier & Lilith's marriage in Aruba?? Didn't we see them get married on Cheers--in Boston?

[Camera One]

I was looking forward to seeing Lilith again, but this episode was rather disappointing.  I didn't find much of it to be funny.  Lilith seemed to break character in the first scene at the bar. 

The reunion reminded me of the Murphy Brown sequel series, where their previously quick witty banter could not be recaptured at their current ages.  Maybe in that sense, it was a good idea after all to pair Frasier with a brand new cast.   Though the new characters are so bland that I sort of wish Lilith could stick around longer so there was time for them to find their groove again.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

I sort of wish Lilith could stick around longer so there was time for them to find their groove again.

I too would like more Lilith; I’m glad that Bebe Neuwirth was at least willing and able to put in a substantial appearance in this episode. Hopefully we might see her again. 
I wonder if Bebe’s appearance might have inspired DHP to relent on his position of not wanting to revisit the character of Niles — or not.

Having the character of David in the show leaves an easy segue for an appearance of his mum, Daphne. Jane Leeves was terrific in the comedy Hot in Cleveland, that ran until 2015.

[Egg McMuffin]

11 hours ago, sharmar said:

I did not get all the references to Frasier & Lilith's marriage in Aruba?? Didn't we see them get married on Cheers--in Boston?

We never saw them get married onscreen on Cheers, but no one ever mentioned a destination wedding in Aruba either.

[Athena]

11 hours ago, sharmar said:

I did not get all the references to Frasier & Lilith's marriage in Aruba?? Didn't we see them get married on Cheers--in Boston?

I wondered the same and other fans on Reddit did the research. Frasier and Lilith got engaged during Cheers but they married off screen.

[Affogato]

I feel as if I've seen a lot of cheers and Frasier, but I never watched them regularly as they came out and I think I pretty much don't watch the last (whatever) seasons of either. I remember I saw Freddy once, but I couldn't pick him out of a lineup. 

I like this Freddy, well enough, and I will appreciate seeing his fire fighter buddies from time to time. they don't necessarily add depth, but they add some much needed variety. I really don't know what to make of David. Have I missed that he is in school? Do his parents, Niles and /or Daphne live in Boston? It took me three episodes to realize who he was (yes 'uncle' was a clue, I'm sometimes fairly clueless). 

 I do understand that Frasier being a hugely empathic, insightful human being about everyone except his immediate family is the point of the show. I would like them to pull back on the nastiness, though, unless he is going to get back together with Lilith, in which case it is just foreplay.

[Sarah 103]

34 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I really don't know what to make of David. Have I missed that he is in school? Do his parents, Niles and /or Daphne live in Boston? It took me three episodes to realize who he was (yes 'uncle' was a clue, I'm sometimes fairly clueless). 

David is in college; he's at Harvard. Niles and Daphne are still in Seattle. I think the writers are still figuring out the character. 

[Ottis]

This show is hugely uneven while still being entertaining, thanks largely to Kelsey Grammar and his on screen buddy, Alan.

The Good: Frasier himself, and his trademark pretentiousness and deep-voiced sarcastic comments. The show overdoes it at times, but generally Frasier's dry humored observations, even of himself, are fun.

The Good: Alan is really becoming a more complex character. He has apparently never cared much about consequences, and now he is of an age that he will take risks because, well, why not. And yet he loves Frasier, and clearly wants to do the right thing for others even as he acts silly.

The Middling: Freddy. I love that Freddy chose a different path in life that he loves. As a parent, I don't understand why Frasier has had such an issue with it. It's not like Freddy became an addict. That said, all the drama over this, especially from Freddy, who seems irretrievably scarred by most aspects of his past, is irritating. Freddy needs to grow up. 

The Middling: Harvard. Yeah, it is Frasier's dream. The show would have been better had he settled for Boston College, with hopes to get to Harvard.

The Bad: The nephew. What is the point of this cartoon character? Neither Frasier nor Freddy should have to put up with him.

The Bad: So far, all of the males have ranged from pompous to clueless, with lots of negatives in between. Alan may be the least toxic male here, with his benign silliness. The women, OTOH, are all capable survivors, usually outsmarting the men. We need to see a fuller representation of those two groups.

On 11/16/2023 at 6:04 AM, shapeshifter said:

Bebe Neuwirth looked quite frail compared to the last time I saw her, and she's only 64. 
But then Kelsey Grammer (68) does too.

We thought the same of Neuwirth, and it wasn't the gray in the hair. It was her entire manner and delivery. I kept expecting her to announce she was sick. Honestly, have not noticed Kelsey Grammar is frail. Older, sure. Not frail. He did quite well in the ep where he crawled on the floor of the classroom.

On 11/17/2023 at 9:12 PM, benteen said:

Freddy whines too much.

Yes, indeed. As I noted above, he needs to grow up.

On 11/17/2023 at 7:42 AM, nora1992 said:

I can’t decide if raiding the ark or romancing the stone was my favorite reference.

"Go ahead and welcome us to Jurassic Park" was mine.

On 11/19/2023 at 4:27 PM, John M said:

I think pretty much every good show takes a bit to find it's footing and it feels like with this episode, even if it is not completely there, it feels like they are going to make it.

Agree. They could cut the nephew entirely. And I really, really hope they don't have a whole thing where Freddy actually does love the woman next door, and she him, and they each have to deal with their guilt. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Ottis

[John M]

23 hours ago, Ottis said:

Agree. They could cut the nephew entirely. And I really, really hope they don't have a whole thing where Freddy actually does love the woman next door, and she him, and they each have to deal with their guilt. 

Freddy should come out as bi and start dating another man. Seriously, I really think it would work. There was so much gay subtext in the first series including the presumption of gayness used as a plot device many times, I think it would be really interesting if the series explored Freddy rejecting the stereotypical queer coded effete intellectualism of his parents, took a blue collar career, presents as stereotypical straight man and ended up actually being the openly queer character on the show.  

[Blakeston]

On 11/20/2023 at 2:19 PM, Sarah 103 said:

David is in college; he's at Harvard. Niles and Daphne are still in Seattle. I think the writers are still figuring out the character. 

I think the only thought the writers put into David was to make him 1) clueless and 2) s******.

They basically combined the most pathetic aspects of Niles, and the flakiest aspects of Daphne, in order to create a complete clown.

And they put him in Harvard because it would be a convenient reason for him to be around Frasier, but it's not plausible that he would be a Harvard student. We've seen nothing to suggest that he's actually smart, and even if he has a sky-high IQ, Harvard isn't just looking at raw intelligence in their admissions decisions. There's no way that they would see this bumbling fool as a future leader.

[Sarah 103]

5 hours ago, Blakeston said:

There's no way that they would see this bumbling fool as a future leader.

My guess is that he looked better on paper. Who he seemed to be based on his application may not be the same as who he is in person.

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

My guess is that he looked better on paper. Who he seemed to be based on his application may not be the same as who he is in person.

Alan doesn’t look like much of a leader, either. If you mean politician, person who steers foreign policy. David is smart, young, and could find a niche. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Affogato

[Blakeston]

On 12/30/2023 at 10:43 PM, Sarah 103 said:

My guess is that he looked better on paper. Who he seemed to be based on his application may not be the same as who he is in person.

Don't the Ivys do interviews?  I can't picture David hiding his nature for even 10 minutes.

[baldryanr]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:19 PM, Blakeston said:

And they put him in Harvard because it would be a convenient reason for him to be around Frasier, but it's not plausible that he would be a Harvard student. We've seen nothing to suggest that he's actually smart, and even if he has a sky-high IQ, Harvard isn't just looking at raw intelligence in their admissions decisions. There's no way that they would see this bumbling fool as a future leader.

He's the nephew of the very rich and famous Dr. Frasier Crane, who just happens to be a Harvard alum.  They even mentioned that Alan wrote a recommendation letter for David even though it seemed like the two had never met in person.  With those sorts of connections being literate would be enough to get him in.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Don't the Ivys do interviews?  I can't picture David hiding his nature for even 10 minutes.

They only interview a small percentage of applicants. It’s based on having alumni in the area willing to interview applicants and is considered mostly irrelevant with Harvard. If he was interviewed it was probably by a friend of Niles. 

[Badger]

I think David could be described as book-smart but maybe not street or real-world-smart.