S01.E03: Backstabbers

[AimingforYoko]

Quote

Raylan and the Detroit Police round up some promising suspects, provoking Carolyn's ire; Mansell and Sandy move on the Albanian mark; things with Willa reach a breaking point.

Wouldn't it be ironic that the younger Olyphant's best piece of acting would be her exit from the show?

 

[Starchild]

Ironic, but acceptable.

[thuganomics85]

Okay, Clement singing Jack White's "We're Going to Be Friends" makes me wonder if that was a massive easter egg/reference for Timothy Olyphant's real life friendship with Conan O'Brien, because they also use that song for his podcast, "Conan Needs a Friend."  Either way, I imagine Conan would have got a big kick out of that!

Wouldn't be surprised if she shows back up eventually, but I think Willa leaving already was the right call.  Didn't grow to hate her or anything, but I feel like they were already treading some ground with that particular plot point.  In the end, Raylan seems to be what I expected he would be as a father: not the world's worst dad on any level, but someone who will always find himself putting his career/"the job" first, and it will likely effect his relationship with her (and really, his entire family) for the rest of his life.  To be fair, sometimes it really is a case of trouble finding him even when he isn't actually looking for it.

Goes without saying that Clement has no chill.  There probably could have been so many ways he could have eased in the mark to get what he wanted, but he just had to show his psycho cards that quickly.  Or was it because he was rushed due to thinking the police were right behind him?

I get Sweetie wanting to make sure he's covered first, but I have a bad feeling that longer he holds onto that murder weapon, the more dangerous it will be for him.

I guess that scene with Carolyn sitting in the judge's chair is suppose to hint where she wants to be in the future?

[mjc570]

5 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I guess that scene with Carolyn sitting in the judge's chair is suppose to hint where she wants to be in the future?

Didn't a previous scene show her filling out the application to be considered for an associate judgeship, but realizing that the massive tax lien (as the result of brother? failure to pay the taxes) would disqualify her? A shame, I'd think she'd make a terrific judge.

If we're actually rid of Willa, thank goodness.  I know there was a certain amount of buzz and feel goodness from the RL casting, but what a poorly written character.  Whiny, disrespectful, self-centered (yes, I know, probably completely accurate for kiddos of that age and background) but I'm not watching this for the family drama.  

Otherwise, I liked it.  Lots of action, and plot advancement.  I can't wait for the terrible twosome to get what they deserve. 

I probably missed it (not paying too much attention), but why would the Albanian guy have so much money from a single hot dog location? I get that it would be in cash, but is he laundering drug money or something?

[MrWhyt]

6 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Okay, Clement singing Jack White's "We're Going to Be Friends" makes me wonder if that was a massive easter egg/reference for Timothy Olyphant's real life friendship with Conan O'Brien, because they also use that song for his podcast, "Conan Needs a Friend."  Either way, I imagine Conan would have got a big kick out of that!

 

In the last episode/s he was singing along to Seven Nation Army so he may just be a fan of The White Stripes.

 

1 hour ago, mjc570 said:

(as the result of brother? failure to pay the taxes)

ex-husband/law partner I think

[tv-talk]

I thought Willa was fine in the episode and I'm glad they presented the deep sadness both daughter and father feel rather than just anger on her part. Raylan lives a fucked up life with the latest incident being a stone-cold murderer cozying up to his daughter. I like that they opened the door on his fam life a little bit and suspect she'll be back in last episode which is fine.

That said...only a few episodes of this show! Cant 'waste' too much time on family life etc, gotta get down to business which I'm sure is what we'll get from this point forward.

So Sweeney realize that she was hiding a gun in the bathroom and got it before the raid? And had it somewhere that it wasnt found? 

What I dont like about this show so far- Mansell. The character and the actor are fine but I cant see why he's doing any of this. He murdered the judge out of road rage in a completely random incident. And now I assume he's probably killed the Albanian guy...he's basically an idiot who has no sort of real plan or acumen, not anything more than a "gun thug."

After watching machinations of all the various criminals in Justified over the years, so far Mansell is a Dewey Crowe and a far cry from a Crowder.

[tearsandhysteria]

I can't say this new show has the zest of the original. I'm still here for it though. I truly hope the kid is gone as even her "sad" acting moments are painful for me.

I don't know why  he couldn't just let Sandie marry the clown and get half of his stuff in the divorce after a while.  She was already getting an expensive ring. She would have had access to his money and he obviously liked to lavish her with gifts. She probably could have talked the hubs into buying some stuff for her dear protective brother as well since he's all  about family. I just hope it picks up. It hasn't given me the thrill that the old Justified did at all. 

And I'm I the only one that misses Tim? God, I loved him. His dry humor gave me life. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by tearsandhysteria

[seacliffsal]

So glad that Willa and her mumbling little girl voice is gone.  I know it's a trend-the little girl voice-just like the vocal fry, but I just can't listen to it for too long.  And, no, 15 isn't still a little girl (and, yes, I guess I'm just grumpy).  Really noticed the amount of ads.

Oh, and a white girl telling a black woman that her father is okay for a white guy?  I just can't.  Again, glad she's gone (at least for now).  But, I get that including her in the initial story is what really amps up Raylan regarding the guy who threatened her.

[yourmomiseasy]

10 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

In the last episode/s he was singing along to Seven Nation Army so he may just be a fan of The White Stripes.

I assumed the character was a fan since they are a Detroit band and the show takes place in Detroit.

[MrWhyt]

On 7/26/2023 at 11:16 AM, tv-talk said:

The character and the actor are fine but I cant see why he's doing any of this. He murdered the judge out of road rage in a completely random incident.

he has impulse control. As he said he does whatever he wants.

very late edit: he has NO impulse control

Edited July 30, 2023 by MrWhyt

[Blakeston]

I'm confused about a few things:

Was the judge's killing just about road rage? If so, how did Mansell know to go straight for the book in the judge's pocket?

I got the impression that his lawyer was in cahoots with the judge, and that's how Mansell got away with murder a few years back - the judge let him off on a technicality because he was crooked. But if that was the case, Mansell should have known who he was.

Also, where was Raylan planning to bring Willa in the first episode? I recall that they arrived too late, but couldn't they come back on a different day?

[Pike Ludwell]

I've been wavering, but now I'm pretty sure -- this season is not nearly as good as the original series. The story, characters, and dialog are all weak. The dialog in particular is just very odd in more than one way, and bewildering way too often. I really don't like the writing.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Pike Ludwell

[peeayebee]

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I'm confused about a few things:

Was the judge's killing just about road rage? If so, how did Mansell know to go straight for the book in the judge's pocket?

I got the impression that his lawyer was in cahoots with the judge, and that's how Mansell got away with murder a few years back - the judge let him off on a technicality because he was crooked. But if that was the case, Mansell should have known who he was.

Also, where was Raylan planning to bring Willa in the first episode? I recall that they arrived too late, but couldn't they come back on a different day?

I think Mansell wasn't looking for the book in the judge's pocket. Maybe just looking for money or anything of value. And, yes, it was just road rage.

I believe Rayland said that this judge was never assigned to any of Mansell's cases. The judge was likely crooked, though. Maybe he and the lawyer are in cahoots in other ways. The lawyer sure has a gorgeous (and expensive) house.

I was so pissed off at the stupidity of the two cops following Mansell. They should have zipped around his car at the traffic light just like everyone else. 

[Crashcourse]

Since this is just eight episodes, I'll stick with it until the end.  However, I'm only watching it for Raylan.  

[Unclejosh]

The only good thing about this show is Raylan and unfortunately they have neutered him. He is one of the best badasses in TV history but you would never know it from this show. Plus his screen time seems limited in comparison to the original but that may just because that at least had interesting other characters we cared about and enjoyed watching in Raylan's absence. This just doesn't have it, at least not yet. 

I literally could not care less about any other character aside from maybe the 2 cops. The redhead and the overzealous dog detective.  The rest are bleh.

[tv-talk]

26 minutes ago, Unclejosh said:

This just doesn't have it, at least not yet. 

I think tbf we have to remember that Justifed spent years on end developing characters, this one season show was never going to be able to match that unless they brought back all the old characters which didnt happen. 

[Unclejosh]

Well I remember watching it in real time and being hooked from the first episode.  If this was a new show and the original never existed, I doubt I would keep watching.  

So the years of character development doesn't really hold water because the characters in the pilot were all better than the ones in this version. If Justified had only been 8 episodes long originally and ended on Blowback, I still would have loved it as each episode was entertaining and riveting. IMO of course.

I just did a rewatch in anticipation of this show and by this point in Season 1, Raylan was firmly established as someone not to fuck with, who was quick witted and quicker to act if needed. This guy is no different than any other generic cop on any cop show.

And this is no shade on TO. He is the only good thing in the show like I said but he is a watered down version who may swear more but it is toothless. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Unclejosh

[aghst]

On 7/26/2023 at 10:16 AM, tv-talk said:

 

What I dont like about this show so far- Mansell. The character and the actor are fine but I cant see why he's doing any of this. He murdered the judge out of road rage in a completely random incident. And now I assume he's probably killed the Albanian guy...he's basically an idiot who has no sort of real plan or acumen, not anything more than a "gun thug."

After watching machinations of all the various criminals in Justified over the years, so far Mansell is a Dewey Crowe and a far cry from a Crowder.

Yeah the dummy kept the gun which he used to kill the wrecking crew and used the same gun on the judge.

Then left it to Sandy to get rid of the gun.

He's not exactly keeping a low profile.  The cops know he's the one and it's just a matter of getting the evidence.

But I'm guessing he will have dumb luck and Sweetie will get killed or somehow his plan to turn in the gun for immunity won't work.

Otherwise, this would be a short season of putting away the supposed Big Bad for the season.

I assume Raylan beating him up allowed Mansell and Sandy to walk?  In one scene they were all being interrogated separately, the cops telling both of them that they were ratting each other out.

But then the next scene they were out, trying to get the Albanian guy to show them his panic room.

The Ringer Prestige Podcast is doing episode recaps.  They say that in the book, this story really centers on detective Ray Cruz, not Raylan.  Apparently Cruz is also significant figure in the Elmore Leonard universe.

 

 

[seacliffsal]

I think that now that Willa has gone back to her mom, the real threat that is Raylan will start emerging.  He may have 'held' himself in while she was around.  She was a distraction and it was right for him to send her back.  Also, mopey teenagers always seem to distract from the real story.  I am here for the second half of the season when things should really start to happen.

[Raja]

7 hours ago, aghst said:

The Ringer Prestige Podcast is doing episode recaps.  They say that in the book, this story really centers on detective Ray Cruz, not Raylan.  Apparently Cruz is also significant figure in the Elmore Leonard universe.

True but Raylan already had a TV audience so instead of the Elmore Leonard estate just selling another book as a movie in this case they grafted Deputy Givens in place of Detective Cruz/Paul Calderon who  had made the pre show arrest on Mansell and the show has him already retired. 

Lets just say that Cruz also pushes folks to the point that his use of force is justified.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Raja

[tv-talk]

19 hours ago, Unclejosh said:

I just did a rewatch in anticipation of this show and by this point in Season 1, Raylan was firmly established as someone not to fuck with, who was quick witted and quicker to act if needed.

I hear you but the amount of people Raylan killed was truly absurd, just ridiculous. I dont mind that they have tried to go a different route this series rather than just having him blast everyone suspected of anything. He's also in Detroit rather than some hollow shooting up Dewey Crowe's above ground pool, cant just rip off shots whenever he wants in downtown Detroit.

I think they missed an opportunity with Mansell because the guy who plays him is really good actor, but for me the actual character is wanting.

[Crashcourse]

If he ripped off shots in downtown Detroit, I don't think that would be that big of a deal.  People would just take off running.

[tennisgurl]

I really don't hate Willa and I think the actress is fine, but I'm glad that she's gone. Very few shows that aren't specifically about families benefit from the addition of a snarky teenage daughter, now that she's gone we can really get into the meat of the story. Raylan as a dad is pretty much what I expected, he clearly loves his daughter and he tries his best to connect with her, but he always gets pulled back into the job and struggles to really understand how to be an involved dad. With the dad he had, that's certainly understandable. 

The story about various Albanians all killing each other and having to bring in a guy from out of the country to stop everyone from killing each other, making Mansell think of east Tennessee, was classic Justified humor. That really is what quite a lot of the original Justified was about, so many blood feuds. 

It also made me really miss the setting even more, this show was so tied to its location in Kentucky that it feels weird to be here in the city, especially as the show hasn't done a lot yet to really play into the idea of Raylan being something of a fish out of water. 

Mansell is a real dumbass, he might be the luckiest crook in Detroit if he keeps not getting arrested for his blatant crimes. 

[paigow]

On 7/28/2023 at 4:50 PM, tennisgurl said:

especially as the show hasn't done a lot yet to really play into the idea of Raylan being something of a fish out of water.

Not really plausible... he lived in Miami for a long time...although George Clinton  was a mystery to him...

[Jordan61]

On 7/26/2023 at 4:31 PM, seacliffsal said:

So glad that Willa and her mumbling little girl voice is gone.  I know it's a trend-the little girl voice-just like the vocal fry, but I just can't listen to it for too long.  And, no, 15 isn't still a little girl (and, yes, I guess I'm just grumpy). 

To make matters worse, Vivian Olyphant is actually 20 years old.

[Sweet-tea]

On 7/26/2023 at 9:59 AM, mjc570 said:

Didn't a previous scene show her filling out the application to be considered for an associate judgeship, but realizing that the massive tax lien (as the result of brother? failure to pay the taxes) would disqualify her? A shame, I'd think she'd make a terrific judge.

If we're actually rid of Willa, thank goodness.  I know there was a certain amount of buzz and feel goodness from the RL casting, but what a poorly written character.  Whiny, disrespectful, self-centered (yes, I know, probably completely accurate for kiddos of that age and background) but I'm not watching this for the family drama.  

Otherwise, I liked it.  Lots of action, and plot advancement.  I can't wait for the terrible twosome to get what they deserve. 

I probably missed it (not paying too much attention), but why would the Albanian guy have so much money from a single hot dog location? I get that it would be in cash, but is he laundering drug money or something?

Willa irritated me. I didn't like the character and the actress's voice drove me crazy. I'm glad she is gone and hope she doesn't return. I was worried during the scene that she would turn around and not get on the plane. I actually felt relief when she did! 

I kept thinking of Bosch and how much better a job the show did with the daughter character. When the show started she was around the same age as Willa and not annoying like Willa. I like Maddie and enjoyed watching her on the show. She and her dad also have good chemistry. I also think she's a much better actress. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Sweet-tea

[chediavolo]

On 8/15/2023 at 10:28 PM, Jordan61 said:

To make matters worse, Vivian Olyphant is actually 20 years old.

dear God, she really needs vocal lessons.  Hope she’s gone for good. It was so implausible that Raylan  would have such an idiotic child. 

[Anela]

I’m enjoying it, but I’ve had trouble focusing on things, and this was easy to get into. 
I really like Sweetie and the lawyer. 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Anela