S02.E07: Those Old Scientists

[marinw]

I got the impression that the Enterprise Crew were not very impressed with the future of Starfleet. Not due to Boimler’s and Mariner’s ranks but rather their behaviour.

Edited July 25, 2023 by marinw

[marceline]

I really liked this episode. It was just such a love letter.

I think it will be one of my favorites of Modern Trek.

[johntfs]

I want Tendi to show up in a "sequel" to this or something.  With this one the focus was "We've got to get these annoying future people out of here before they wreck time!"

With Tendi it would be "Awww, Captain, can't we keep her?  She's so adorable and nice.  Plus she kicked the shit out of two adult Gorn in hand to hand."

[starri]

1 hour ago, marceline said:

I think it will be one of my favorites of Modern Trek.

Of all the episodes we've had since the big resurrection, this is my current favorite by a wide margin.  

[jah1986]

I really loved this episode! You could tell everyone was having a blast. I also liked seeing SNW animated at the end of the episode. I know I watch way too much Marvel, but is it at all possible that this is not "our" Spock? Either this is another universe, so we can't know for sure what he will become, or he's been replaced by a shape shifting alien. Or will he himself suffer a trauma that erases his memories? I just want Spock/Christine to end.

[Affogato]

19 hours ago, marinw said:

I got the impression that the Enterprise Crew were not very impressed with the future of Starfleet. Not due to Boimler’s and Mariner’s ranks but rather their behaviour.

 

Both of them solved some problems and showed some initiative. I did think the Enterprise Crew was frustrated and overwhelmed by them and their fannishness, but probably figured that it was stress and over excitement.

[Chicago Redshirt]

19 hours ago, Jodithgrace said:

While this episode did absolutely nothing to compel me to watch Lower Decks, I did enjoy it. I liked all the hints of the “future” careers of our present cast of characters. 
Grinning Spock was creepy. I do admire how Ethan Peck contrasted Spock’s present experimental emotions with his actual human emotions in the episode where he lost his Vulcan DNA. I wonder what does change him into the Spock we know in TOS. 

It might be crazy of me to think it, but maybe Boimler telling Spock that the universe needs "Vulcan Spock" in this episode might have a deeper impact than anyone might have guessed Boimler would have on anything...

[Stardancer Supreme]

On 7/23/2023 at 4:15 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

Well I loved this. I was prepared for Boimler and Mariner to be wildly out of character, but I guess they brought on the lower decks writers, because they were pretty much spot on.

The whole thing was very enjoyable through and through. I think this is where SNW is best at, if they don't try to tackle big things and themes, but have small, contaiend stories. Because with a prequel, tackling big things can never work. Because we know how they turn out in the end and most of the time the writers aren't good enough to weave them in seemlessly.

So I guess with the ending this has always happened. Boimler's and Mariner's scheme turned these Orion pirates into Orion scientists, who discovered the portal, in the eyes of history. I love that for Tendi. This story might have even inspired her to become a scientist in the first place.

 

I am sitting here smiling. That episode was soooo enjoyable! I was right there with Boimler and Mariner for the ultimate geek-off.  This is a nicer version of "Never meet your heroes..." and I found it quite disturbing with them about Spock's more human-like inflections.  I did wonder about the non-reaction to La'an; I guess Khan must be ancient history to the Lower Decks ensigns.

Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed this episode.

[Zaffy]

Absolutely loved it. 
And I think Lower Decks is the new trek series that loves the Star Trek universe even more than us. I would even watch a LD crossover with Disco. There, I said it :D

[paigow]

On 7/25/2023 at 7:10 PM, Zaffy said:

Absolutely loved it. 
And I think Lower Decks is the new trek series that loves the Star Trek universe even more than us. I would even watch a LD crossover with Disco. There, I said it :D

The LD crew would need to jump 900 years into the future... 

ETA: How would they even know? Discovery was redacted from Starfleet archives and Pike signed an NDA....

Edited July 27, 2023 by paigow

[TVbitch]

I don't watch LD and when the guy rolled out of the portal, I thought it was Bill Hader! Then I was bummed it was not Bill Hader, but then the actor playing Boimler was great, so it was cool. 🤣 But since Barry is done, can Bill Hader get a role on this show?!

Anyhoo, I laughed a lot. They really excel at comedy on this Trek. The drama has not had quite enough weight and gravitas for me this season, but I am hopeful they will find a good balance.  

[magdalene]

I already knew Jack Quaid  was a charmer. I really enjoyed this episode and I have never watched Lower Decks. Both the Pike and Spock actors have excellent comedic timing. Makes them even more attractive to me.

[marinw]

Jack Quaid looks older than his animated version to me.

Edited July 26, 2023 by marinw

[dwmarch]

10 hours ago, magdalene said:

I already knew Jack Quaid  was a charmer.

I'm not sure if it was intentional or not but I loved how Ortegas and Chapel snuggled up to him in the lounge. Lower Decks has established that Boimler does have a certain charm with the ladies but he's totally oblivious to it and/or finds it annoying.

Great payoff for Una's plot from earlier in the season. Having said that, while she is the poster child for Starfleet, I don't think her genetic status ever gets revealed or else Dr. Bashir wouldn't have had to struggle with the same issue so many years later.

Does the end scene mean that the LD crew is gallivanting around the galaxy drunk on Orion booze all the time?

[marinw]

14 minutes ago, dwmarch said:

Lower Decks has established that Boimler does have a certain charm with the ladies but he's totally oblivious to it and/or finds it annoying.

"Would you like to sample the ripeness of my bushel?" is one of the most risque and suggestive things I have ever heard.

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I'm not sure if it was intentional or not but I loved how Ortegas and Chapel snuggled up to him in the lounge. Lower Decks has established that Boimler does have a certain charm with the ladies but he's totally oblivious to it and/or finds it annoying.

Great payoff for Una's plot from earlier in the season. Having said that, while she is the poster child for Starfleet, I don't think her genetic status ever gets revealed or else Dr. Bashir wouldn't have had to struggle with the same issue so many years later.

Does the end scene mean that the LD crew is gallivanting around the galaxy drunk on Orion booze all the time?

They were "snuggling up" to Boimler to mess with him.

With Una she's still a special case.  Also, Bashir is who the rule is really for - somebody whose parents decided to use genetic manipulation to try to turn their baby into a superman.

The entire LD universe being high on Orion booze would honestly explain a lot of things.

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I'm not sure if it was intentional or not but I loved how Ortegas and Chapel snuggled up to him in the lounge. Lower Decks has established that Boimler does have a certain charm with the ladies but he's totally oblivious to it and/or finds it annoying.

Great payoff for Una's plot from earlier in the season. Having said that, while she is the poster child for Starfleet, I don't think her genetic status ever gets revealed or else Dr. Bashir wouldn't have had to struggle with the same issue so many years later.

Does the end scene mean that the LD crew is gallivanting around the galaxy drunk on Orion booze all the time?

Honestly I would love to see him in a rom com, and generally I am completely indifferent to rom coms, when I don't cross the street to avoid them. I think he really has inherited something from Meg Ryan that makes him completely adorable. I can see that it might be something he would occasionally find annoying.

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, marinw said:

Jack Quaid looks older than his animated version to me.

Animation is great for the complexion.

[QuantumMechanic]

So were the Orions actually scientists or were they really pirates doing a "oh, yeah. sure, we're 'scientists'" thing?

[marceline]

On 7/25/2023 at 12:53 PM, jah1986 said:

I just want Spock/Christine to end.

I hate to say that I do too.

I love this version of Chapel and I don't want her story to be shackled to Spock. We know his fate. We don't know hers. 

[Tachi Rocinante]

I really enjoyed it. 

Live action Jack Quaid gave me Hughie vibes from The Boys though.

Those of you who don't watch Lower Decks should at least try a few episodes.  The whole point of them being who they are/how they act is premised upon where they are stationed. 

For those of you who do, is it just me, or do they do something to Tawny Newsome's voice for the cartoon? There were some scenes where she didn't sound like Mariner at all.

[Chicago Redshirt]

24 minutes ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

For those of you who do, is it just me, or do they do something to Tawny Newsome's voice for the cartoon? There were some scenes where she didn't sound like Mariner at all.

I didn't notice a difference in the voice, but imagine that there could be to a careful listener differences between what she had recorded (presumably) from a makeshift home studio for the first seasons of LD at least and an actual soundstage.

Like, I would have said LD Q was a knockoff voice actor if I didn't know for 100 percent it was the real deal. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Chicago Redshirt

[marinw]

Mariner being taken with Spock reminded me of Dax being taken with Spock. Or maybe it was McCoy? It’s been awhile.

[Prevailing Wind]

55 minutes ago, marinw said:

Mariner being taken with Spock reminded me of Dax being taken with Spock. Or maybe it was McCoy? It’s been awhile.

Jadzia Dax was taken by Spock; her previous "host' Emony Dax was the one who discovered the young McCoy, while in university, already had "surgeon's hands" - Jadzia just remembered it.

[Panopticon]

4 hours ago, Affogato said:

Honestly I would love to see him in a rom com, and generally I am completely indifferent to rom coms, when I don't cross the street to avoid them. I think he really has inherited something from Meg Ryan that makes him completely adorable. I can see that it might be something he would occasionally find annoying.

This was my first time seeing Jack Quaid in the flesh, although I have watched Lower Decks. I was surprised to learn that Meg Ryan’s famous glowy-upbeat facial expressions were things that could be passed along genetically. 

[marina to]

3 hours ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

For those of you who do, is it just me, or do they do something to Tawny Newsome's voice for the cartoon? There were some scenes where she didn't sound like Mariner at all.

She was speaking slower?

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Panopticon said:

I was surprised to learn that Meg Ryan’s famous glowy-upbeat facial expressions were things that could be passed along genetically. 

Also Picard proved accents  and male pattern baldness are inheritable traits 

[Athena5217]

This episode isn’t going to be one of my favorites because the plot is thin, but I give the writers credit for capturing how fans feel about Star Trek in the Lower Deck characters reactions to the Enterprise crew. It felt kind of like a love letter to Star Trek.

[tv-talk]

I rewatched this and realize I just dont like Mariner at all. From the moment she appeared and dogged out the Capt et al for not being Uhura, the way she is written is just a bit too grating when not in cartoon form- for me anyway.

Definitely agree with folks who said this was like a love letter to Trek, very nice, and to follow it up with such a grave episode was great one two punch for the season. 

[Affogato]

20 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

I rewatched this and realize I just dont like Mariner at all. From the moment she appeared and dogged out the Capt et al for not being Uhura, the way she is written is just a bit too grating when not in cartoon form- for me anyway.

Definitely agree with folks who said this was like a love letter to Trek, very nice, and to follow it up with such a grave episode was great one two punch for the season. 

I think Mariner is pretty aggravating in general. Her mother is a saint, in my opinion.

[tv-talk]

18 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I think Mariner is pretty aggravating in general. Her mother is a saint, in my opinion.

Yeah I've never quite gotten why we are supposed to like Mariner at all or why they have a character like that in the first place. 

[Affogato]

20 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Yeah I've never quite gotten why we are supposed to like Mariner at all or why they have a character like that in the first place. 

You know, I think that at first in any group she really shines. She is competent, smart, energetic and a lot of fun. It is only after a period of time that the negatives are noticeable. There are people like that, and they do often end up in the Lower Decks, by turns a blessing and a curse to the people around them.

[dwmarch]

Is it just me or does this moment look like it is straight out of a Beastie Boys video?

 

[wanderingstar]

Loved this episode. The animation of the SNW crew was so cute. M'Benga yelling "What the hell is in these drinks!" was delightful.

[Sandman]

On 7/23/2023 at 2:16 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Only thing better than Boimler’s "Riker!" when he straddled the saddle like he did, is knowing that Jonathan Frakes was directing this. The Riker Maneuver will never die!

Una: “Mr. Spock ran an analysis; it’s not just a delta, it’s also a communicator. You just press here —“

Pike: “But flipping it open is the best part!”

Sandman: “I already love this episode!”

Even though time travel annoys me, the fact that future generations are awestruck by Uhura seems only right to me. 

ETA: I never realized how strongly Jack Quaid resembles both his parents — he could be one of those CGI mashups.

Also, also: Cartoon Spock saying, in his usual dispassionate tone, “My arm doesn’t usually do this,” with his arm noodling in the breeze like a blue used car lot Minshall man, had me wheezing with laughter. That whole cartoon sequence was hilarious. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Sandman
Or, y’know, his parents were smooshed together in a transporter accident.

[tennisgurl]

I haven't seen Lower Decks yet, although its high on my list of shows to catch up on, and this has definantaly made me want to want to bump it up the list. This was a ton of fun and a very unique crossover, even though I have never seen Lower Decks I could follow everything just fine, it just made me feel more for the SNW characters, I too felt confused and a bit overwhelmed by this perky newbies from the future who know all of this stuff about them. 

The part how everyone in The Old Scientists era speaks lower and slower cracked me up.

So many Trek references! The Riker maneuver was made me laugh and I especially enjoyed the references to Hoshi and Mayweather, I'm glad that at least in the future they're getting some respect, god knows they rarely got it during Enterprise. They even got stuck in the nosebleed seats during the big unification ceremony that their own captain was speaking at!

Glad to know that even the writers are aware that Spock is being weird, its another one of those prequel things that we know is going to go back to the status quo later. 

This season has been a bit all over the place, but I'm having a great time. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by tennisgurl

[Chicago Redshirt]

13 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I haven't seen Lower Decks yet, although its high on my list of shows to catch up on, and this has defiantly made me want to want to bump it up the list.

Sisko approves of this message. :) 

[Frozendiva]

I liked the ep. Saw it aired Monday on CTV Sci Fi. It was charming, funny, well-crafted as a fan thank you of sorts. Tied up a lot of holes in a very much disjointed and lackluster short season. Two time travel eps in a season of 10 eps is a lot. Not much has really happened this season. A bit disappointing.

Mariner did not transfer well to live action. Found her annoying. BoimLer worked. Yeah, Pike knows some of his future. No telling him that ultimately, his story does have a different ending. Whether he would need to know about it, no.

I liked Una being turned off that she was a Starfleet poster girl. I also liked the use of both animation and live action. The ending was funny in that the Orion drink made them all two dimensional and flat.

[Chicago Redshirt]

20 minutes ago, Frozendiva said:

Mariner did not transfer well to live action.

What specifically didn't transfer? Mariner is annoying whether she's animated or live-action. I happen to find her being annoying amusing but I can understand why others might have varying mileage on that point. 

I could see how if the episode tried to make Tawny Newsome portray Mariner as a major-league kicker of butts that might have been beyond Tawny's physical capacity to pull off. But nothing she was tasked to do in this episode involved more than walking around and talking to people. 

[Starchild]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

What specifically didn't transfer? Mariner is annoying whether she's animated or live-action. I happen to find her being annoying amusing but I can understand why others might have varying mileage on that point.

I think someone like Mariner, who simply isn't capable of existing within the command structure, just doesn't belong in Starfleet. I think even she has admitted that once or twice.

I can't imagine why she stays, except for maybe both her supremely indulgent parents are SF officers and that's where her confidence (arrogance?) comes from, and she would feel inadequate away from it and them.

[Sandman]

21 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

What specifically didn't transfer? Mariner is annoying whether she's animated or live-action. I happen to find her being annoying amusing but I can understand why others might have varying mileage on that point. 

Part of it, for me, is how different the two series are in tone. Mariner and (to a somewhat lesser extent?) Boimler seem more annoying than usual because the tone of their own show is not the epic/heroic mode of the rest of the canon. They are not the senior officers and bridge crew of the flagship of the fleet. There's a reason why they are the lower decks crew -- they're comic underachievers, or at least less experienced crew members, whose adventures are played for laughs. I think this accounts for at least part of how jarring Mariner's attitude seems here. The tone of the animated series is mock-heroic and sardonic (even if the love of Trek is evident). These two don't belong in this show, and not just for reasons of (urg) "temporal mechanics."

Maybe Boimler skipped the part of the syllabus on the Eugenics Wars.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Sandman
Well, perhaps it's not an "of course" for everyone.

[Chicago Redshirt]

12 hours ago, Sandman said:

Part of it, of course, is how different the two series are in tone. Mariner and (to a somewhat lesser extent?) Boimler seem more annoying than usual because the tone of their own show is not the epic/heroic mode of the rest of the canon. They are not the senior officers and bridge crew of the flagship of the fleet. There's a reason why they are the lower decks crew -- they're comic underachievers, or at least less experienced crew members, whose adventures are played for laughs. I think this accounts for at least part of how jarring Mariner's attitude seems here. The tone of the animated series is mock-heroic and sardonic (even if the love of Trek is evident). These two don't belong in this show, and not just for reasons of (urg) "temporal mechanics."

Maybe Boimler skipped the part of the syllabus on the Eugenics Wars.

I can see (though I disagree with) this perspective. But to me, that's a different thing from them not translating well to live action. If they for some reason wanted to do a live action Lower Decks episode, it would IMO work as well (or as poorly) as an animated one for the most part. Or at least they could write an episode that does.

I think the tonal criticism is at least somewhat off-base because even though SNW (and pretty much all live-action Trek) is a serious affair, it can also change tone to have goofy misadventures and hijinks. There's nothing about Mariner or Tawny that says they inherently don't fit into such a tonal shift, and I at least don't see anything specific that either did or failed to do to show that they didn't fit in with the episode's concept or that they executed it poorly.

[Sandman]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think the tonal criticism is at least somewhat off-base because even though SNW (and pretty much all live-action Trek) is a serious affair, it can also change tone to have goofy misadventures and hijinks.

I don't mean to suggest that the difference in tone makes the episode unsuccessful (again, for me). And we may disagree on the overall effect, or its source. Sure, TOS (heh, I'm never going to think of that initialism in quite the same way) did have its moments of levity and broad humour, as does this show ("Charades," as an episode, has a mostly light-hearted, even goofy, tone. Except maybe not so much for T'Pring.) But I do think there's a difference between comic relief in a mostly epic drama and a show whose overall tone is mostly satirical (or maybe serio-comic is a better description).

[tv-talk]

20 hours ago, Sandman said:

I think this accounts for at least part of how jarring Mariner's attitude seems here.

Mariner is horrible in live action Trek setting and was the only bad thing about an otherwise "love letter to Trek" episode as others have described it.  Yes, technically you could make a live-action Trek show that was similar to Lower Decks minus crazy stuff only cartoons can do. However there is no such thing as that, all that actually exists is a live-action Trek world where Mariner would have no place whatsoever on the Enterprise and be booted out of Starfleet permanently within a day. Actually she never would have made it through the academy. That's why it was jarring, as you say, to see it.

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

36 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Mariner is horrible in live action Trek setting and was the only bad thing about an otherwise "love letter to Trek" episode as others have described it.  Yes, technically you could make a live-action Trek show that was similar to Lower Decks minus crazy stuff only cartoons can do. However there is no such thing as that, all that actually exists is a live-action Trek world where Mariner would have no place whatsoever on the Enterprise and be booted out of Starfleet permanently within a day. Actually she never would have made it through the academy. That's why it was jarring, as you say, to see it.

 

We know from the TNG-era shows that there are some people in Starfleet who are slackers, insubordinate, arrogant, rulebreakers, etc. Lt. Barclay is on the flagship despite being a stuttering, underconfident holo-addicted daydreamer who doesn't get his work done on time. Lt. Ro used to mouth off to Riker quite a bit.

True, few characters combine all those traits in one package like Mariner does. But the notion that on a second-tier ship run by her mother, Mariner would be booted out of Starfleet permanently within a day is just not supported by any of what we've seen in any of the other series.

And again, this isn't a live-action vs. animation distinction. This is "I don't like the concept of a character who is not meeting my take on what a Starfleet officer should be."

[Frozendiva]

23 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

What specifically didn't transfer? Mariner is annoying whether she's animated or live-action. I happen to find her being annoying amusing but I can understand why others might have varying mileage on that point. 

I could see how if the episode tried to make Tawny Newsome portray Mariner as a major-league kicker of butts that might have been beyond Tawny's physical capacity to pull off. But nothing she was tasked to do in this episode involved more than walking around and talking to people. 

I don’t know. Maybe it reminded me of an interactive exhibit of sorts where you get to meet characters from whatever. Or at the end, when the show crew became flat two dimensional people. Something did not fully execute in going from two to three.

[Starchild]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

this isn't a live-action vs. animation distinction. This is "I don't like the concept of a character who is not meeting my take on what a Starfleet officer should be."

True dat

[tv-talk]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Lt. Barclay is on the flagship despite being a stuttering, underconfident holo-addicted daydreamer who doesn't get his work done on time. Lt. Ro used to mouth off to Riker quite a bit.

Barclay was nothing at all like Mariner, not in anyway really. There is a huge difference from being sort of anti-social like he was and how they have written Mariner who is flat out disrespectful and insubordinate at all times.

 

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

This is "I don't like the concept of a character who is not meeting my take on what a Starfleet officer should be."

Nope. This is Mariner not meeting the expectation set forth by every bit of live action Trek that's ever been made.  Granted I dont watch Discovery so cant speak to anything but season1 of that show, but I have watched pretty much everything else and there is no reasonable argument that a character like Mariner (who was written as a cartoon!) meets the description of anyone who could have graduated from Starfleet and become an active member of a crew. That's fine too, Lower Decks is a cartoon and intended as a spoof or parody of Trek while also staying true enough to it and giving it respect. Pretty great concept really, but that doesnt change the fact that the character of Mariner is completely untenable in "real Trek" (if you wanna call it that. In fact when Trek wants a character to behave like that, 100% of the time there is some underlying reason for it, some kind of "space sickness" or weird life form encountered on an away mission or some other scenario that gives said character an out for their behavior. That's how out of line live action Trek makes disrespecting a superior officer out to be, could only happen due to bizarre outside influence.

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Barclay was nothing at all like Mariner, not in anyway really. There is a huge difference from being sort of anti-social like he was and how they have written Mariner who is flat out disrespectful and insubordinate at all times.

 

Nope. This is Mariner not meeting the expectation set forth by every bit of live action Trek that's ever been made.  Granted I dont watch Discovery so cant speak to anything but season1 of that show, but I have watched pretty much everything else and there is no reasonable argument that a character like Mariner (who was written as a cartoon!) meets the description of anyone who could have graduated from Starfleet and become an active member of a crew. That's fine too, Lower Decks is a cartoon and intended as a spoof or parody of Trek while also staying true enough to it and giving it respect. Pretty great concept really, but that doesnt change the fact that the character of Mariner is completely untenable in "real Trek" (if you wanna call it that. In fact when Trek wants a character to behave like that, 100% of the time there is some underlying reason for it, some kind of "space sickness" or weird life form encountered on an away mission or some other scenario that gives said character an out for their behavior. That's how out of line live action Trek makes disrespecting a superior officer out to be, could only happen due to bizarre outside influence.

Mariner has a low rank in her mother's ship. 

[Prevailing Wind]

I don't watch LD, so I am asking from total ignorance - is it known that Mariner went through the Academy?  O'Brien didn't. Not every person in a Starfleet crew is an Academy graduate.