Shiny Happy People: Duggar Family Secrets

[awaken]

22 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

I read today that the woman who beat her 14 month old was herself a victim of domestic violence. Thankfully for her, the husband left her for a younger woman. They were a highly respected IBLP power couple before the Duggars were on the scene. I believe that they had 9 kids together. 

I’m curious, who are they?

[Zella]

26 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

the title says "season one" - not sure if that means there will be a "season two?" 

IME that doesn't really mean anything on Amazon. Things that are definitely only one season without any further episodes expected are still labeled as season 1 on Prime. I think it's just a consistency thing with the other shows that are multi-season. 

[Salacious Kitty]

1 hour ago, awaken said:

I’m curious, who are they?

Can't recall their name offhand, starts with a V. The husband's brother eventually founded the infamous College Plus (remember that?).

eta Found it! They were the Voellers (Jim and Brad, don't have the woman's name). They were basically thrown out of the IBLP after his affair and the (gasp) divorce. 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Salacious Kitty

[GeeGolly]

So maybe, possibly, some more eyes will be looking at Gil Bates and the rest of the IBLP board members?

I know the cult is wide spread, but how powerful is IBLP? Could a few child advocate lawyers taking on some pro bono cases take them down?

[CountryGirl]

I’ve watched the first two episodes but needed some space after the second one.

I cannot stop thinking about that poor little boy, now a man, who was used for the hitting demonstration because let’s call "spanking" what it is - hitting. How humiliating that had to have been while the hundreds in the audience, his parents presumably included, laughed and laughed as if it was the funniest thing ever. And some of those laughing were once that little boy and perpetuating the cycle of abuse. The old guy’s hand lingering on his butt. Forced to hug him not once but twice. That scene and the one with the woman who abused her 14 month old baby to break her will “all day long" are going to haunt me for a long time. 

I know Amy gets a bad rap on SM as Famy and not saying it's totally undeserved but I really liked her here. Her obvious heartbreak when she admitted to knowing her cousins were being hit and what “encouragement” entailed. I didn't find her husband obnoxious, although admittedly, this was my first exposure to him and I’m thinking they interrupt each other as couples do from time to time (MH and me included, while watching the documentary even). Dillion making fun of Mechelle’s baby voice ( and that it’s not her real voice) made me like him a lot.

It broke my heart to watch Jill, even as I was proud of her for being brave enough to participate in a documentary just as she was brave in attending the last day of the trial, prepared to take the stand against her abuser, former golden child eldest brother, whom I'm only referring to as inmate, with her father looking on. I understand why she participated in this, even if she didn't want to, because she wanted to control the narrative to the extent one can, for perhaps the first time in her life. The documentary vs that awful MK interview where she and Jessa were paraded out to defend inmate and minimize his despicable actions and those of her parents who swept along behind inmate.

There are just so many layers to unpack with Jill - being raised in a family like that, with parents who followed a cult and its teachings to the letter and went out to find more cult recruits and I absolutely think Jim-Boob was angling to be Gothard's heir apparent. Where her main education was how to be meek and voiceless and subservient and what slut-shaming was. Where things like "blanket training" and "encouragement" beatings happened to her and her siblings on the regular. Where she was made to feel guilty and ashamed and to blame for enticing inmate and I was crying even as I was cheering her when it was revealed that she was the one to attempt to fight back and hit him and was the one to go to their parents, for all the good that did.

As a fellow victim who prefers to use the term "survivor," I could relate to so much of what she experienced in terms of the abuse and I thankfully didn't have the other layers on top of that with that nightmare of a family and cult religion. When she ended episode 2 by stressing the why of her participation, in that she wanted to ensure that this kind of thing never happens again, I was proud of her all over again, even if I have issues with her obviously problematic beliefs. I liked that Derek was there for moral support, speaking on her behalf with her permission when she was too overcome to speak. He is problematic as well, but I think theirs is the healthiest of the Duggar marriages (a very low bar, I know).

As for the Holts, given how they started (there aren't barf bags enough to contain my bile watching that), is it any wonder she's got a 10-year protection order against him now?

It will be a bit before I watch the other two as I was quite triggered watching the series. My heart goes out to anyone who watched and was triggered. 

[xwordfanatik]

12 hours ago, Zella said:

IME that doesn't really mean anything on Amazon. Things that are definitely only one season without any further episodes expected are still labeled as season 1 on Prime. I think it's just a consistency thing with the other shows that are multi-season. 

They did this with LuLaRot and Polygamy USA, too.  Of course I watched both, as they were about cults, too.

[merylinkid]

8 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Could a few child advocate lawyers taking on some pro bono cases take them down?

Attorneys can't just walk in and start representing people.   Someone has to go to them and ask them to represent them (no money needs to be exchanged).   Now could child protective services demand to see each and every one of the kids without the parents present based on this documentary -- YES.   Can the parents be put in child endangerment proceedings based on what CPS finds?  YES.   Is that likely to happen?   NO.

[CrazyInAlabama]

Sadly, my guess is that no one will do anything about the Duggar parents.   They are too well connected in their state, and the local jurisdiction. 

[FizzyPuff]

On 6/3/2023 at 3:11 AM, BetyBee said:

I may watch it again sometime. It was a lot. I laughed at Raccoon eyes Jill Rodrigues making an appearance and blathering about modesty. She's a hypocritical fool.

I bet Jill is so happy she got her few seconds of fame 🤪

Also I appreciate Derrick Dillard pretty much keeping his mouth shut while Jill was talking, plus when Jill said she didn’t want Israel’s birth filmed and his comment about no toilet birth and then the clip of Anna giving birth on the toilet (poor Anna) was funny.
Amy’s husbands comment about how he couldn’t stand Mechelles baby voice cracked me up.

Overall it wasn’t a bad documentary, quite sad really. Like others I feel like they could’ve gone into more detail about IBLP and would’ve be interesting to hear what Jill thought of her childhood was she always scared like Jinger? 

[GeeGolly]

Did Deanna call DCF to report the beatings of her nieces and nephews?

@merylinkid, I understand lawyers need to be hired and can't just start representing folks. I was thinking more like they would let those that want to know they're available.

Or for those too squeamish about criminal cases, how about a civil suit, a la Erin Brockovich. If you were injured from 1978 - 2023 by the teachings of IBLP please call 1-800-END-IBLP.

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by GeeGolly

[Straycat80]

I only watched The Duggar’s show occasionally back in the day but learned enough about them to predict one of these days some of their children would rat them and their cult out. So good for Jill, and her other sisters, for doing this. 
I felt so sad for Jill, I hope she has moved past the abuse and has a happy life. I hope the other cult victims have had therapy and haved moved on as well. 
I knew nothing of the IBLP or Bill Gotthard, they a good job on educating in this documentary. 

[geekgirl921]

I never watched 19 Kids and counting though I had of course heard about the Duggars. I thought it was a good documentary, I watched all of the episodes this weekend. Very disturbing and appalling. I definitely do not want to excuse Josh in any way but I wonder if things would have turned out differently if he and the rest of the kids hadn't been raised in such a screwed up way with screwed up attitudes about sex and women!

[lauralu]

I watched this documentary with the kind of fascination that I watched Leah Reminis show on Scientology and documentaries on LDS Fundamentalists.  One things is clear, they all operate the same. White men are the leaders with a direct pipeline to the Higher Being, women are shit, kids are commodities meant to be used as work horses. The premise of all of this extremism is control through Fear, Guilt, Shame and Compliancy. Having said that I do recall watching a few episodes of the Duggards TV shows and at the time thinking I guess they seem nice enough, they can live how they want. I knew nothing whatsoever about Bill Gothard or IBLP until now. I literally felt gross and sick after watching Shiny Happy People.  I have a couple questions though. So Jill and Jinger don't follow this BS anymore? Are they still Christian Fundamentalist's? Do they follow another cult now? What about Jessa, I thought she showed some sense occasionally. But she's still all in?  What about the one older daughter who didn't get married. Is she the permanent nanny and maid for the rest of time or can she move out and get her own place and have a life?, even if its a cult life? Oh, and Anna!  OH FUCKING ANNA! So when that fucking creep Josh gets out of jail (currently supposed to happen in 2032) if she'll have him, he'll go home to his house of small children and pitifully naïve Anna?  That sickens me.  

 

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by lauralu

[SunnyBeBe]

6 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

I’ve watched the first two episodes but needed some space after the second one.

I cannot stop thinking about that poor little boy, now a man, who was used for the hitting demonstration because let’s call "spanking" what it is - hitting. How humiliating that had to have been while the hundreds in the audience, his parents presumably included, laughed and laughed as if it was the funniest thing ever. And some of those laughing were once that little boy and perpetuating the cycle of abuse. The old guy’s hand lingering on his butt. Forced to hug him not once but twice. That scene and the one with the woman who abused her 14 month old baby to break her will “all day long" are going to haunt me for a long time. 

I know Amy gets a bad rap on SM as Famy and not saying it's totally undeserved but I really liked her here. Her obvious heartbreak when she admitted to knowing her cousins were being hit and what “encouragement” entailed. I didn't find her husband obnoxious, although admittedly, this was my first exposure to him and I’m thinking they interrupt each other as couples do from time to time (MH and me included, while watching the documentary even). Dillion making fun of Mechelle’s baby voice ( and that it’s not her real voice) made me like him a lot.

It broke my heart to watch Jill, even as I was proud of her for being brave enough to participate in a documentary just as she was brave in attending the last day of the trial, prepared to take the stand against her abuser, former golden child eldest brother, whom I'm only referring to as inmate, with her father looking on. I understand why she participated in this, even if she didn't want to, because she wanted to control the narrative to the extent one can, for perhaps the first time in her life. The documentary vs that awful MK interview where she and Jessa were paraded out to defend inmate and minimize his despicable actions and those of her parents who swept along behind inmate.

There are just so many layers to unpack with Jill - being raised in a family like that, with parents who followed a cult and its teachings to the letter and went out to find more cult recruits and I absolutely think Jim-Boob was angling to be Gothard's heir apparent. Where her main education was how to be meek and voiceless and subservient and what slut-shaming was. Where things like "blanket training" and "encouragement" beatings happened to her and her siblings on the regular. Where she was made to feel guilty and ashamed and to blame for enticing inmate and I was crying even as I was cheering her when it was revealed that she was the one to attempt to fight back and hit him and was the one to go to their parents, for all the good that did.

As a fellow victim who prefers to use the term "survivor," I could relate to so much of what she experienced in terms of the abuse and I thankfully didn't have the other layers on top of that with that nightmare of a family and cult religion. When she ended episode 2 by stressing the why of her participation, in that she wanted to ensure that this kind of thing never happens again, I was proud of her all over again, even if I have issues with her obviously problematic beliefs. I liked that Derek was there for moral support, speaking on her behalf with her permission when she was too overcome to speak. He is problematic as well, but I think theirs is the healthiest of the Duggar marriages (a very low bar, I know).

As for the Holts, given how they started (there aren't barf bags enough to contain my bile watching that), is it any wonder she's got a 10-year protection order against him now?

It will be a bit before I watch the other two as I was quite triggered watching the series. My heart goes out to anyone who watched and was triggered. 

I’m sorry for your experiences.  It’s really sad. It’s amazes me how many of us are out there.  I used to use the term religious abuse and people didn’t know what I was talking about.  

 I was surprised to see Ms. Holt got a TEN year order of protection.  My state has a 1 year, with option of applying for two more at the end of the first year.  

[Tachi Rocinante]

5 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

Sadly, my guess is that no one will do anything about the Duggar parents.   They are too well connected in their state, and the local jurisdiction. 

it doesn't matter anyway.  By the times things gain traction, they can move money around a la Alex Jones and claim they're broke.

[SnapHappy]

1 hour ago, lauralu said:

OH FUCKING ANNA! So when that fucking creep Josh gets out of jail (currently supposed to happen in 2032) if she'll have him, he'll go home to his house of small children and pitifully naïve Anna?  That sickens me.  

By the time he gets out, his oldest will be married & his youngest almost a teen.  Way outside his age preference.  Only young nieces & nephews, and I don't imagine his siblings are going to let him near their young kids. 

Edited June 5, 2023 by SnapHappy

[Salacious Kitty]

19 minutes ago, SnapHappy said:

By the time he gets out, his oldest will be married & his youngest almost a teen.  Way outside his age preference.  Only young nieces & nephews, and I don't imagine his siblings are going to let him near their young kids. 

He's on probation for 20 years after his release. That means no interactions with minor children. Not sure if that includes his own. His youngest will be 12, about the same age Jill was when she was assaulted.

[Salacious Kitty]

A producer from Shiny Happy People, Cori Shepard Stern, is having an AMA on Reddit tomorrow, 5pm EDT. I'm assuming it's on the DuggarSnark page.

Sorry, couldn't get a screenshot of the announcement. 😕

Edited June 6, 2023 by Salacious Kitty
Added the name

[Absolom]

I hate Reddit, but out of kindness, here it is.

[Salacious Kitty]

Thanks! I don't do Reddit, and the link wouldn't work for me. 

I won't be there, but thought I'd pass on the info. 😃

[Scarlett45]

11 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

I’ve watched the first two episodes but needed some space after the second one.

I cannot stop thinking about that poor little boy, now a man, who was used for the hitting demonstration because let’s call "spanking" what it is - hitting. How humiliating that had to have been while the hundreds in the audience, his parents presumably included, laughed and laughed as if it was the funniest thing ever. And some of those laughing were once that little boy and perpetuating the cycle of abuse. The old guy’s hand lingering on his butt. Forced to hug him not once but twice. That scene and the one with the woman who abused her 14 month old baby to break her will “all day long" are going to haunt me for a long time. 

I know Amy gets a bad rap on SM as Famy and not saying it's totally undeserved but I really liked her here. Her obvious heartbreak when she admitted to knowing her cousins were being hit and what “encouragement” entailed. I didn't find her husband obnoxious, although admittedly, this was my first exposure to him and I’m thinking they interrupt each other as couples do from time to time (MH and me included, while watching the documentary even). Dillion making fun of Mechelle’s baby voice ( and that it’s not her real voice) made me like him a lot.

It broke my heart to watch Jill, even as I was proud of her for being brave enough to participate in a documentary just as she was brave in attending the last day of the trial, prepared to take the stand against her abuser, former golden child eldest brother, whom I'm only referring to as inmate, with her father looking on. I understand why she participated in this, even if she didn't want to, because she wanted to control the narrative to the extent one can, for perhaps the first time in her life. The documentary vs that awful MK interview where she and Jessa were paraded out to defend inmate and minimize his despicable actions and those of her parents who swept along behind inmate.

There are just so many layers to unpack with Jill - being raised in a family like that, with parents who followed a cult and its teachings to the letter and went out to find more cult recruits and I absolutely think Jim-Boob was angling to be Gothard's heir apparent. Where her main education was how to be meek and voiceless and subservient and what slut-shaming was. Where things like "blanket training" and "encouragement" beatings happened to her and her siblings on the regular. Where she was made to feel guilty and ashamed and to blame for enticing inmate and I was crying even as I was cheering her when it was revealed that she was the one to attempt to fight back and hit him and was the one to go to their parents, for all the good that did.

As a fellow victim who prefers to use the term "survivor," I could relate to so much of what she experienced in terms of the abuse and I thankfully didn't have the other layers on top of that with that nightmare of a family and cult religion. When she ended episode 2 by stressing the why of her participation, in that she wanted to ensure that this kind of thing never happens again, I was proud of her all over again, even if I have issues with her obviously problematic beliefs. I liked that Derek was there for moral support, speaking on her behalf with her permission when she was too overcome to speak. He is problematic as well, but I think theirs is the healthiest of the Duggar marriages (a very low bar, I know).

As for the Holts, given how they started (there aren't barf bags enough to contain my bile watching that), is it any wonder she's got a 10-year protection order against him now?

It will be a bit before I watch the other two as I was quite triggered watching the series. My heart goes out to anyone who watched and was triggered. 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and vulnerability with us @CountryGirl- given you are a survivor you can empathize with Jill and give perspective on her that might not be clear to some of us. 
 

I have always thought Jill was a natural nurturer and caregiver, who felt a strong moral duty to protect her buddies and be a good daughter, which makes the parents manipulation of that very beautiful inclination to protect the inmate(love that by that the way) even more malicious. 

[Absolom]

Finding out years later how the Duggars really parented is all the more disgusting that they went on TV pretending to be such loving, perfect parents.

[Scarlett45]

7 hours ago, geekgirl921 said:

I never watched 19 Kids and counting though I had of course heard about the Duggars. I thought it was a good documentary, I watched all of the episodes this weekend. Very disturbing and appalling. I definitely do not want to excuse Josh in any way but I wonder if things would have turned out differently if he and the rest of the kids hadn't been raised in such a screwed up way with screwed up attitudes about sex and women!

I say nope. Josh is evil and a predator. He might not have assaulted his sisters but he would’ve been “that guy” you didn’t take drinks from or get in his car alone because a ride home meant you owed him something. He is a POS and watching him on screen causes a reaction I wasn’t expecting.

 

Im glad Jill stood up for herself and set her own boundaries. She never wanted to talk about the abuse and her parents (whom she loved and trusted explicitly) had her trot out when Izzy was an infant, to defend JOSH and save the brand. I’m getting mad all over again. 

[Zella]

Just now, Scarlett45 said:

She never wanted to talk about the abuse and her parents (whom she loved and trusted explicitly) had her trot out heavily pregnant (with all the physical discomfort and hormones that come with that) to defend JOSH and save the brand.

I agree the interview was vile, but she wasn't actually heavily pregnant. She was a few weeks postpartum (not that that's an improvement.) I believe Jessa was 4 months pregnant during the interview. 

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

I agree the interview was vile, but she wasn't actually heavily pregnant. She was a few weeks postpartum (not that that's an improvement.) I believe Jessa was 4 months pregnant during the interview. 

Oh I am sorry. Thank you @Zella, I will amend. 

[Zella]

8 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Oh I am sorry. Thank you @Zella, I will amend. 

No worries! I remember at the time people speculating that the Duggars very intentionally trotted out the only married girls, pregnancy or postpartum status be damned, and I suspect that is a correct summation of what happened, which is just awful. 

[SunnyBeBe]

10 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

Sadly, my guess is that no one will do anything about the Duggar parents.   They are too well connected in their state, and the local jurisdiction. 

I guess…..but, he always seemed like a goofball to me. No offense to harmless goofballs.  Lol

[Salacious Kitty]

37 minutes ago, Zella said:

I agree the interview was vile, but she wasn't actually heavily pregnant. She was a few weeks postpartum (not that that's an improvement.) I believe Jessa was 4 months pregnant during the interview. 

Izzy was about 8 weeks. He was born at the beginning of April 2015, and the awful Megyn Kelly interview was around the first week of June. 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Salacious Kitty

[IvySpice]

On 5/20/2023 at 11:54 AM, Meow Mix said:

What I am hoping is that the Duggars are just the access point here that the creators are using to actually do a real expose on IBLP. 

Well, you called that one right.

[all fall down]

5 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

He's on probation for 20 years after his release. That means no interactions with minor children. Not sure if that includes his own. His youngest will be 12, about the same age Jill was when she was assaulted.

It does include his own children.

From the order: "The defendant shall have no unsupervised contact with minors, which shall include his own children. Contact with his children must be supervised by his wife, his parents, or another individual approved by the U.S. Probation Office. If there is a concern about the potential for inadvertent contact with a minor at a particular place, function, or event, then the defendant shall get approval from the U.S. Probation Office before attending any such place, function, or event."

[IvySpice]

14 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

I liked that Derek was there for moral support, speaking on her behalf with her permission when she was too overcome to speak.

No defense of his crappy beliefs/statements, but their spousal dynamic looked really good in the doc. He came across as (rightly) protective and respectful of his wife. She came across as trusting him deeply. They seemed like a team. I felt like I recognized that vibe from my own marriage, in a good way. To put it mildly, that is NOT how I feel watching JB/M or Inmate/Anna.

[EtheltoTillie]

13 hours ago, geekgirl921 said:

I never watched 19 Kids and counting though I had of course heard about the Duggars. I thought it was a good documentary, I watched all of the episodes this weekend. Very disturbing and appalling. I definitely do not want to excuse Josh in any way but I wonder if things would have turned out differently if he and the rest of the kids hadn't been raised in such a screwed up way with screwed up attitudes about sex and women!

There was more than an implication that this behavior or other disordered behaviors was rampant in the organization.

Here's a cautionary tale. I worked with someone who was raised very fundie (he never saw TV until he was in college).  He was required to stand on the street with proselytizing signs, etc.  He was one of those types that went a little wild when he escaped.  He went to college and became a lawyer.  Then he was arrested for taking upskirt photos.  He was convicted and disbarred.  He was only 27 at the time. 

[GeeGolly]

IMO, Josh Duggar would have been some kind of deviant criminal regardless of how he was raised. Possibly his home and faith-based environment steered him towards sex crimes, but he does have 18 law abiding siblings.

I'm just happy his kids have 10 years of their dad being in jail, because I think these are going to be the easiest years for them. There is no doubt in my mind Josh will reoffend. Once he's out, it'll just be a matter of time before his sexual deviancy escalates from legal to illegal.

Adding - I am not talking about viewing/possessing, CSA which is not only beyond deviant, it is also illegal.

Edited June 6, 2023 by GeeGolly

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Once he's out, it'll just be a matter of time before his sexual deviancy escalates from legal to illegal.

For the record Josh’s sexual deviancy was never legal- that’s why he’s in prison now, because of the crimes he committed. He was FINALLY caught and punished. 
 

As the documentary points out- how many times do these leaders have to offend, how many times to they have to cross clear social and criminal boundaries before they are caught? Then caught and punished publicly??

[GeeGolly]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

For the record Josh’s sexual deviancy was never legal- that’s why he’s in prison now, because of the crimes he committed. He was FINALLY caught and punished. 
 

As the documentary points out- how many times do these leaders have to offend, how many times to they have to cross clear social and criminal boundaries before they are caught? Then caught and punished publicly??

From what I understand, but I won't go into detail, Josh was watching and wanted to participate in sexual acts that were legal but went beyond kinky sex (for lack of a better word. Sexual behaviors that most, if not all, would define as deviant.

As to your other comment, history tells us many, many crimes must occur before before leaders in various organizations and/or cults are stopped and held accountable. 

Adding - I am not talking about viewing CSA which is not only beyond deviant, it is also illegal.

Edited June 6, 2023 by GeeGolly

[EtheltoTillie]

16 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

From what I understand, but I won't go into detail, Josh was watching and wanted to participate in sexual acts that were legal but went beyond kinky sex (for lack of a better word. Sexual behaviors that most, if not all, would define as deviant.

As to your other comment, history tells us many, many crimes must occur before before leaders in various organizations and/or cults are stopped and held accountable. 

It must be explained why what he did was illegal.  Watching illegal acts or looking at photos of illegal acts on a computer, including child sex abuse, is illegal because the fact that there is a market for the imagery means that actual children were abused to produce it.  The felon, Josh, contributed to that.  I wish he could spend a longer time in jail.

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, EtheltoTillie said:

It must be explained why what he did was illegal.  Watching illegal acts or looking at photos of illegal acts on a computer, including child sex abuse, is illegal because the fact that there is a market for the imagery means that actual children were abused to produce it.  The felon, Josh, contributed to that.  I wish he could spend a longer time in jail.

I fully understand viewing CSA is illegal. That is not what I am speaking of.

Like I said in my post, (which I will amend) there is a lot out there that is deviant but absolutely legal. In between scandals it appears Josh's desires escalated to the point where legal deviancy was not enough to satisfy him.  

[Scarlett45]

26 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

From what I understand, but I won't go into detail, Josh was watching and wanted to participate in sexual acts that were legal but went beyond kinky sex (for lack of a better word. Sexual behaviors that most, if not all, would define as deviant.

As to your other comment, history tells us many, many crimes must occur before before leaders in various organizations and/or cults are stopped and held accountable. 

Possession of CSA is a crime (which is what Josh is in prison for now). Possession, distribution and production of CSA are all crimes with their various penalties.  So what he was doing was not legal. 
 

[EtheltoTillie]

4 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I fully understand viewing CSA is illegal. That is not what I am speaking of.

Like I said in my post, (which I will amend) there is a lot out there that is deviant but absolutely legal. In between scandals it appears Josh's desires escalated to the point where legal deviancy was not enough to satisfy him.  

But Josh started out with illegal deviancy--against his sisters.  Ugh.

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I fully understand viewing CSA is illegal. That is not what I am speaking of.

Like I said in my post, (which I will amend) there is a lot out there that is deviant but absolutely legal. In between scandals it appears Josh's desires escalated to the point where legal deviancy was not enough to satisfy him.  

Ah I misunderstood you original post. My apologies. I think where our misconnect is is around the fact that Josh’s behavior even as a teen was not legal. Touching people without their consent while they were sleeping  was not legal. IMO Josh didn’t escalate, he got older with more resources and got caught. 

1 minute ago, EtheltoTillie said:

But Josh started out with illegal deviancy--against his sisters.  Ugh.

Yes that’s where I was going. 

[GeeGolly]

24 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Ah I misunderstood you original post. My apologies. I think where our misconnect is is around the fact that Josh’s behavior even as a teen was not legal. Touching people without their consent while they were sleeping  was not legal. IMO Josh didn’t escalate, he got older with more resources and got caught. 

Yes that’s where I was going. 

No worries!

[merylinkid]

10 hours ago, all fall down said:

It does include his own children.

From the order: "The defendant shall have no unsupervised contact with minors, which shall include his own children. Contact with his children must be supervised by his wife, his parents, or another individual approved by the U.S. Probation Office. If there is a concern about the potential for inadvertent contact with a minor at a particular place, function, or event, then the defendant shall get approval from the U.S. Probation Office before attending any such place, function, or event."

Oh bullshit.   Anna will never properly supervise him.   Because if he tells her to leave him alone, she will just wander off like an obedient wife.   His parents are just as bad.   They looked the other way for so many years.   The only solution will be exactly what happened pre-trial, he has to live apart.   Because no one in his family can be trusted to follow the rules.  

As for Michelle and Jim Bob ever being loving parents, I have said this before.   They never loved any of their kids.   They just wanted to have a passel of kids to publicly show they were having sex -- and to control them.    I know we want to believe that parents must OF COURSE love their kids, but sadly that is not always the case.    Michelle was not overwhelmed by having too many kids so she checked out.   She didn't love them to begin with.   She just started having kids because she and JB had sex.   Josh wasn't special because he had more of Michelle's attention as the oldest.   There is literally no reason to believe she cared for him any more than she cared about the others.   She just didn't have a sister mom to hand him off to.

[Scarlett45]

9 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

As for Michelle and Jim Bob ever being loving parents, I have said this before.   They never loved any of their kids.   They just wanted to have a passel of kids to publicly show they were having sex -- and to control them.    I know we want to believe that parents must OF COURSE love their kids, but sadly that is not always the case.    Michelle was not overwhelmed by having too many kids so she checked out.   She didn't love them to begin with.   She just started having kids because she and JB had sex.   Josh wasn't special because he had more of Michelle's attention as the oldest.   There is literally no reason to believe she cared for him any more than she cared about the others.   She just didn't have a sister mom to hand him off to.

My friend who was watching this with me (and grew up in these circles) said it’s very attractive to have someone give you the answers to everything. “Do xyz” and you will be happy/fulfilled. My friend also says what saved her from the cult was that she knew she could never follow these rules so she would be damned for all eternity. 
 

I think Michelle does and did have a typical maternal love for Josh. She and JB were married four years before he was born, he was wanted, typical and healthy*- I believe she enjoyed being his Mom at first. But I also believe she just doesn’t like kids! In an alternate universe Michelle is the type that would’ve had one child and either a full time nanny or a stay at home partner (which wasn’t available to her in the circumstances of this current reality). 

*I point this out, not insinuating kids who don’t fit this criteria aren’t loved and valued, of course they are, I’m pointing it out to highlight the lack reasons why many find parenting stressful at first. 

Michelle ended up being a medical marvel with those happy pregnancy hormones, a super fertile partner and a culture that praised her to high Heaven for this. She ran with it like lightening, no wonder she got wrapped up in a cult that says “if you do xyz you’ll be fulfilled” because following those rules DID make her fulfilled. 

Not excusing it, but I’m not surprised. 

[merylinkid]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

I believe she enjoyed being his Mom at first.

I think she enjoyed being his mom too.   Because she got attention.  Not becuase she loved Josh.   I think Josh was just like all the other kids, lots of fun when newborn, then she got bored.   But that doesn't mean she loved him.   It means like any other narcissist, she enjoyed what he provided FOR HER.   I think Michelle is just a much a narcissist as JB.

[MamaMax]

On 6/2/2023 at 4:15 PM, farmgal4 said:

It’s sad that Timothy’s strong will was beaten out of him but sadder still is the fact that he will do the very same thing to his own children.  Fundies beat their children because that’s what the Bible tells them to do.

IBLP  told them to do 

Is there any info about what Bobeye alleged against Jim?

And I keep thinking they were the ones that Josh lived with during his trial, am I wring about that? 

[the-grey-lady]

On 5/19/2023 at 7:26 PM, Gemma Violet said:

In the court records which are public records, she called JB controlling, reactionary, verbally abusive, and that they have a toxic relationship.

Wow, really? That makes the wedding episode where he says he doesn't want to give her away (and maybe hints she's his favorite?) even creepier.

[geekgirl921]

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

My friend who was watching this with me (and grew up in these circles) said it’s very attractive to have someone give you the answers to everything. “Do xyz” and you will be happy/fulfilled. My friend also says what saved her from the cult was that she knew she could never follow these rules so she would be damned for all eternity. 
 

I think Michelle does and did have a typical maternal love for Josh. She and JB were married four years before he was born, he was wanted, typical and healthy*- I believe she enjoyed being his Mom at first. But I also believe she just doesn’t like kids! In an alternate universe Michelle is the type that would’ve had one child and either a full time nanny or a stay at home partner (which wasn’t available to her in the circumstances of this current reality). 

*I point this out, not insinuating kids who don’t fit this criteria aren’t loved and valued, of course they are, I’m pointing it out to highlight the lack reasons why many find parenting stressful at first. 

Michelle ended up being a medical marvel with those happy pregnancy hormones, a super fertile partner and a culture that praised her to high Heaven for this. She ran with it like lightening, no wonder she got wrapped up in a cult that says “if you do xyz you’ll be fulfilled” because following those rules DID make her fulfilled. 

Not excusing it, but I’m not surprised. 

That's always been my view of these fundie groups. It's attractive because everything is very black and white and there is no decision making required. The leader will tell you what you should believe and do. 

[quarks]

10 minutes ago, MamaMax said:

IBLP  told them to do 

Is there any info about what Bobeye alleged against Jim?

And I keep thinking they were the ones that Josh lived with during his trial, am I wring about that? 

Josh stayed with the Reber family after his arraignment until and during the trial. They didn't seem too thrilled about it, although afterwards Mr. Reber wrote the judge and noted that Josh had helped with fixing up cabinets, so, you know, yay cabinets! 

Their daughter ended up marrying one of Anna Duggar's brothers, in what has to be one of the worst ever "So how did you two meet?" stories, since they apparently only met after Josh's arrest.

 

[SunnyBeBe]

9 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

There was more than an implication that this behavior or other disordered behaviors was rampant in the organization.

Here's a cautionary tale. I worked with someone who was raised very fundie (he never saw TV until he was in college).  He was required to stand on the street with proselytizing signs, etc.  He was one of those types that went a little wild when he escaped.  He went to college and became a lawyer.  Then he was arrested for taking upskirt photos.  He was convicted and disbarred.  He was only 27 at the time. 

That’s really sad.  Many of those I attended Fundie school with have died!  Seriously.  And they died young or were disabled, like in their 20’s -40’s.  I’m not sure why.  I don’t think there were suicides, but I’m not certain.  We started having school reunions about 10 years ago and I would crack up laughing at some of the stuff that would come up.  There was a world of stuff going on that I wasn’t aware of like smoking, kissing, cursing, etc. general non-Fundie activities at school. Regardless, of the Fundie teachings, we didn’t let it rob us of some good memories, friendships, and laughter.    

[charmed1]

Sarah Posner has written an opinion piece on the documentary.
https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp/rcna87740

Although she applauds the filmmakers for exposing these people and their ilk, she says much of the material relies on the work of journalists that they left largely uncredited. She wrote a piece in 2015.

Quote

"Shiny Happy People" follows this same narrative trajectory, and adds some new and dramatic revelations. But it is marred by the filmmakers’ failure to cite or acknowledge the many previous reports and investigations about Gothard and his organization, or to properly place the IBLP (and its homeschooling curriculum, the Advanced Training Institute) in context of the larger politics of the religious right.

One of the grossest parts of the doc for me wasn’t even the faux spanking demonstration. It was the fact that, that sicko asked a crowd of parents to donate a child to him to demonstrate on. And they did it! They passed the child up like he was some type of sacrifice. I’ve watched a lot of cult documentaries and that guy looked no different than Jim Jones, Warren Jeffs, or L. Ron Hubbard.

Edited June 6, 2023 by charmed1